What's your theory? Is Avery Innocent or guilty? Was Brendan Dassey involved?
What does inconsistent mean?
Steven Avery is a low life piece of crap from Manitowoc in Wisconsin who killed a woman after raping her and beating her to death, and then dismembering her and setting her on fire?
He is one guilty ****, a low life family of animals the Avery family, I had a Retail Store in Manitowoc when this was going on, these people are reviled in the area and that hoor is 100% Guilty all day long, as is his accomplice Dassey.
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 09:22:45 PM
Steven Avery is a low life piece of crap from Manitowoc in Wisconsin who killed a woman after raping her and beating her to death, and then dismembering her and setting her on fire?
He is one guilty ****, a low life family of animals the Avery family, I had a Retail Store in Manitowoc when this was going on, these people are reviled in the area and that hoor is 100% Guilty all day long, as is his accomplice Dassey.
It's pretty obvious he was set up. Wind your neck in.
Quote from: Syferus on January 04, 2016, 09:57:47 PM
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 09:22:45 PM
Steven Avery is a low life piece of crap from Manitowoc in Wisconsin who killed a woman after raping her and beating her to death, and then dismembering her and setting her on fire?
He is one guilty ****, a low life family of animals the Avery family, I had a Retail Store in Manitowoc when this was going on, these people are reviled in the area and that hoor is 100% Guilty all day long, as is his accomplice Dassey.
It's pretty obvious he was set up. Wind your neck in.
You are off your rocker if you think he was set up, I lived 35 miles from this maggot and I know all about his past, he is pond scum but do tell how you know he was set up Syferus?
The woman went to his farm for a photo shoot on a car and he raped her, butchered her and burnt her body, follow the evidence ffs!
Do you believe that the moon landing never happened? Jesus wept!
Former Wisconsin state prosecutor Ken Kratz says Netflix's Making a Murderer left out some key pieces of evidence against Steven Avery in its 10-part docu-series.
"You don't want to muddy up a perfectly good conspiracy movie with what actually happened," Kratz tells PEOPLE by email, "and certainly not provide the audience with the evidence the jury considered to reject that claim."
Filmed and produced over ten years, Making a Murderer examines the twist-filled case of Avery, a Wisconsin man who was released from prison after being exonerated for sexual assault only to be arrested again and convicted for the murder of a young photographer, Teresa Halbach.
Avery is currently serving life in prison without the possibility of parole. But he maintains his innocence and believes he was framed in retribution for filing a $36 million lawsuit against the county and authorities. (Avery's nephew, Brendan Dassey, was also convicted for her murder and will be eligible for parole in 2048.)
A 'Targeted' Crime?
Kratz, who says he was contacted by filmmakers Laura Ricciardi and Moira Demos but declined to be interviewed for the series, believes Avery "targeted" Halbach.
He cites Halbach's Oct. 10, 2005 visit to the property owned by Avery's family for a photo shoot for AutoTrader magazine: According to Kratz, Avery allegedly opened his door "just wearing a towel."
"She was creeped out [by him]," Kratz says by phone, later adding by email: "She [went to her employer and] said she would not go back because she was scared of him."
At 8:12 a.m. on Oct. 31, the day Halbach was killed, Kratz says Avery called AutoTrader magazine and asked them to send "that same girl who was here last time." He says that Avery knew Halbach was leery of him, so he allegedly gave his sister's name and number to "trick" Halbach into coming.
"Phone records show three calls from Avery to Teresa's cell phone on Oct. 31," says Kratz. "One at 2:24 [p.m.], and one at 2:35 – both calls Avery uses the *67 feature so Teresa doesn't know it him...both placed before she arrives.
"Then one last call at 4:35 p.m., without the *67 feature. Avery first believes he can simply say she never showed up...so tries to establish the alibi call after she's already been there, hence the 4:35 call. She will never answer of course, so he doesn't need the *67 feature for that last call."
Steven Avery Prosecutor Says Netflix Series Omitted Key Evidence: 'You Don't Want to Muddy Up a Perfectly Good Conspiracy Movie'| Netflix, Crime & Courts, Murder, True Crime, TV News
Steven Avery
DAN POWERS / POST-CRESENT / AP
Kratz Claims Further Evidence Against Avery
During his time in prison for a rape he was later cleared of, Kratz says Avery allegedly "told another inmate of his intent to build a 'torture chamber' so he could rape, torture and kill young women when he was released." Kratz adds, "He even drew a diagram."
Kratz also claims that "another inmate was told by Avery that the way to get rid of a body is to 'burn it.' " Halbach's bones were discovered in the fire pit behind Avery's house. He says "were 'intertwined' with the steel belts, left over from the car tires Avery threw on the fire to burn," says Kratz, disputing the defense's allegation that Halbach was burned elsewhere and her bones were later moved.
"Suggesting that some human bones found elsewhere – never identified as Teresa's – were from this murder was never established," he adds.
• Want to keep up with the latest crime coverage? Click here to get breaking crime news, ongoing trial coverage and details of intriguing unsolved cases in the True Crime Newsletter.
According to Kratz, Avery's DNA, which he says was not taken from his blood, was also found under the hood of Halbach's car, a Toyota RAV4. "How did his DNA get under the hood if Avery never touched her car? Do the cops have a vial of Avery's sweat?" asks Kratz. Defense attorneys alleged that Avery's blood, which was found in Halbach's car, may have been planted, taken from a vial of Avery's blood that was 11 years old.
Kratz also claims that a bullet, recovered from Avery's garage, couldn't possibly have been planted by police, as the defense also alleged. "Ballistics said the bullet found in the garage was fired by Avery's rifle, which was in a police evidence locker since Nov. 6, 2005," says Kratz. "If the cops planted the bullet, how did they get one fired from [Avery's] gun? This rifle, hanging over Avery's bed, is the source of the bullet found in the garage, with Teresa's DNA on it. The bullet had to be fired before Nov. 5."
Kratz, who resigned from his position as Calumet County District Attorney in 2010 following a sexting scandal, admitted that he sent suggestive messages to a crime victim and described his behavior as "deplorable" in an email. He says he had a prescription drug problem at the time. He believes, however, that "it's exceedingly unfair to use that to characterize me as morally unfit" in Making a Murderer and says his later behavior shouldn't have any bearing on the case.
"[Halbach's murder] was planned weeks ahead of time," says Kratz. "[Avery] asked for that same girl to be sent. He was ready for her."
Share this story:
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 10:34:42 PM
Former Wisconsin state prosecutor Ken Kratz says Netflix's Making a Murderer left out some key pieces of evidence against Steven Avery in its 10-part docu-series.
"You don't want to muddy up a perfectly good conspiracy movie with what actually happened," Kratz tells PEOPLE by email, "and certainly not provide the audience with the evidence the jury considered to reject that claim."
Filmed and produced over ten years, Making a Murderer examines the twist-filled case of Avery, a Wisconsin man who was released from prison after being exonerated for sexual assault only to be arrested again and convicted for the murder of a young photographer, Teresa Halbach.
Avery is currently serving life in prison without the possibility of parole. But he maintains his innocence and believes he was framed in retribution for filing a $36 million lawsuit against the county and authorities. (Avery's nephew, Brendan Dassey, was also convicted for her murder and will be eligible for parole in 2048.)
A 'Targeted' Crime?
Kratz, who says he was contacted by filmmakers Laura Ricciardi and Moira Demos but declined to be interviewed for the series, believes Avery "targeted" Halbach.
He cites Halbach's Oct. 10, 2005 visit to the property owned by Avery's family for a photo shoot for AutoTrader magazine: According to Kratz, Avery allegedly opened his door "just wearing a towel."
"She was creeped out [by him]," Kratz says by phone, later adding by email: "She [went to her employer and] said she would not go back because she was scared of him."
At 8:12 a.m. on Oct. 31, the day Halbach was killed, Kratz says Avery called AutoTrader magazine and asked them to send "that same girl who was here last time." He says that Avery knew Halbach was leery of him, so he allegedly gave his sister's name and number to "trick" Halbach into coming.
"Phone records show three calls from Avery to Teresa's cell phone on Oct. 31," says Kratz. "One at 2:24 [p.m.], and one at 2:35 – both calls Avery uses the *67 feature so Teresa doesn't know it him...both placed before she arrives.
"Then one last call at 4:35 p.m., without the *67 feature. Avery first believes he can simply say she never showed up...so tries to establish the alibi call after she's already been there, hence the 4:35 call. She will never answer of course, so he doesn't need the *67 feature for that last call."
Steven Avery Prosecutor Says Netflix Series Omitted Key Evidence: 'You Don't Want to Muddy Up a Perfectly Good Conspiracy Movie'| Netflix, Crime & Courts, Murder, True Crime, TV News
Steven Avery
DAN POWERS / POST-CRESENT / AP
Kratz Claims Further Evidence Against Avery
During his time in prison for a rape he was later cleared of, Kratz says Avery allegedly "told another inmate of his intent to build a 'torture chamber' so he could rape, torture and kill young women when he was released." Kratz adds, "He even drew a diagram."
Kratz also claims that "another inmate was told by Avery that the way to get rid of a body is to 'burn it.' " Halbach's bones were discovered in the fire pit behind Avery's house. He says "were 'intertwined' with the steel belts, left over from the car tires Avery threw on the fire to burn," says Kratz, disputing the defense's allegation that Halbach was burned elsewhere and her bones were later moved.
"Suggesting that some human bones found elsewhere – never identified as Teresa's – were from this murder was never established," he adds.
• Want to keep up with the latest crime coverage? Click here to get breaking crime news, ongoing trial coverage and details of intriguing unsolved cases in the True Crime Newsletter.
According to Kratz, Avery's DNA, which he says was not taken from his blood, was also found under the hood of Halbach's car, a Toyota RAV4. "How did his DNA get under the hood if Avery never touched her car? Do the cops have a vial of Avery's sweat?" asks Kratz. Defense attorneys alleged that Avery's blood, which was found in Halbach's car, may have been planted, taken from a vial of Avery's blood that was 11 years old.
Kratz also claims that a bullet, recovered from Avery's garage, couldn't possibly have been planted by police, as the defense also alleged. "Ballistics said the bullet found in the garage was fired by Avery's rifle, which was in a police evidence locker since Nov. 6, 2005," says Kratz. "If the cops planted the bullet, how did they get one fired from [Avery's] gun? This rifle, hanging over Avery's bed, is the source of the bullet found in the garage, with Teresa's DNA on it. The bullet had to be fired before Nov. 5."
Kratz, who resigned from his position as Calumet County District Attorney in 2010 following a sexting scandal, admitted that he sent suggestive messages to a crime victim and described his behavior as "deplorable" in an email. He says he had a prescription drug problem at the time. He believes, however, that "it's exceedingly unfair to use that to characterize me as morally unfit" in Making a Murderer and says his later behavior shouldn't have any bearing on the case.
"[Halbach's murder] was planned weeks ahead of time," says Kratz. "[Avery] asked for that same girl to be sent. He was ready for her."
Share this story:
If you actually watched the case you'd know full well Ken Kratz is the most untrustworthy party in the whole debacle. A sex offender who tried to use the high profile nature of this case to prevent his higher-ups from firing him.
Quote from: Syferus on January 04, 2016, 10:49:16 PM
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 10:34:42 PM
Former Wisconsin state prosecutor Ken Kratz says Netflix's Making a Murderer left out some key pieces of evidence against Steven Avery in its 10-part docu-series.
"You don't want to muddy up a perfectly good conspiracy movie with what actually happened," Kratz tells PEOPLE by email, "and certainly not provide the audience with the evidence the jury considered to reject that claim."
Filmed and produced over ten years, Making a Murderer examines the twist-filled case of Avery, a Wisconsin man who was released from prison after being exonerated for sexual assault only to be arrested again and convicted for the murder of a young photographer, Teresa Halbach.
Avery is currently serving life in prison without the possibility of parole. But he maintains his innocence and believes he was framed in retribution for filing a $36 million lawsuit against the county and authorities. (Avery's nephew, Brendan Dassey, was also convicted for her murder and will be eligible for parole in 2048.)
A 'Targeted' Crime?
Kratz, who says he was contacted by filmmakers Laura Ricciardi and Moira Demos but declined to be interviewed for the series, believes Avery "targeted" Halbach.
He cites Halbach's Oct. 10, 2005 visit to the property owned by Avery's family for a photo shoot for AutoTrader magazine: According to Kratz, Avery allegedly opened his door "just wearing a towel."
"She was creeped out [by him]," Kratz says by phone, later adding by email: "She [went to her employer and] said she would not go back because she was scared of him."
At 8:12 a.m. on Oct. 31, the day Halbach was killed, Kratz says Avery called AutoTrader magazine and asked them to send "that same girl who was here last time." He says that Avery knew Halbach was leery of him, so he allegedly gave his sister's name and number to "trick" Halbach into coming.
"Phone records show three calls from Avery to Teresa's cell phone on Oct. 31," says Kratz. "One at 2:24 [p.m.], and one at 2:35 – both calls Avery uses the *67 feature so Teresa doesn't know it him...both placed before she arrives.
"Then one last call at 4:35 p.m., without the *67 feature. Avery first believes he can simply say she never showed up...so tries to establish the alibi call after she's already been there, hence the 4:35 call. She will never answer of course, so he doesn't need the *67 feature for that last call."
Steven Avery Prosecutor Says Netflix Series Omitted Key Evidence: 'You Don't Want to Muddy Up a Perfectly Good Conspiracy Movie'| Netflix, Crime & Courts, Murder, True Crime, TV News
Steven Avery
DAN POWERS / POST-CRESENT / AP
Kratz Claims Further Evidence Against Avery
During his time in prison for a rape he was later cleared of, Kratz says Avery allegedly "told another inmate of his intent to build a 'torture chamber' so he could rape, torture and kill young women when he was released." Kratz adds, "He even drew a diagram."
Kratz also claims that "another inmate was told by Avery that the way to get rid of a body is to 'burn it.' " Halbach's bones were discovered in the fire pit behind Avery's house. He says "were 'intertwined' with the steel belts, left over from the car tires Avery threw on the fire to burn," says Kratz, disputing the defense's allegation that Halbach was burned elsewhere and her bones were later moved.
"Suggesting that some human bones found elsewhere – never identified as Teresa's – were from this murder was never established," he adds.
• Want to keep up with the latest crime coverage? Click here to get breaking crime news, ongoing trial coverage and details of intriguing unsolved cases in the True Crime Newsletter.
According to Kratz, Avery's DNA, which he says was not taken from his blood, was also found under the hood of Halbach's car, a Toyota RAV4. "How did his DNA get under the hood if Avery never touched her car? Do the cops have a vial of Avery's sweat?" asks Kratz. Defense attorneys alleged that Avery's blood, which was found in Halbach's car, may have been planted, taken from a vial of Avery's blood that was 11 years old.
Kratz also claims that a bullet, recovered from Avery's garage, couldn't possibly have been planted by police, as the defense also alleged. "Ballistics said the bullet found in the garage was fired by Avery's rifle, which was in a police evidence locker since Nov. 6, 2005," says Kratz. "If the cops planted the bullet, how did they get one fired from [Avery's] gun? This rifle, hanging over Avery's bed, is the source of the bullet found in the garage, with Teresa's DNA on it. The bullet had to be fired before Nov. 5."
Kratz, who resigned from his position as Calumet County District Attorney in 2010 following a sexting scandal, admitted that he sent suggestive messages to a crime victim and described his behavior as "deplorable" in an email. He says he had a prescription drug problem at the time. He believes, however, that "it's exceedingly unfair to use that to characterize me as morally unfit" in Making a Murderer and says his later behavior shouldn't have any bearing on the case.
"[Halbach's murder] was planned weeks ahead of time," says Kratz. "[Avery] asked for that same girl to be sent. He was ready for her."
Share this story:
If you actually watched the case you'd know full well Ken Kratz is the most untrustworthy party in the whole debacle. A sex offender who tried to use the high profile nature of this case to prevent his higher-ups from firing him.
Keep ignoring the evidence and defending this vile animal, he and his are the scum of the earth, I know people who have had dealings with these scumbags and I met some of them, ignorant scumbags to a man.
Stew have you watched the series?
From the series there doesn't appear enough evidence to convict of murder. From the added material onlineive read since the series it paints Avery differently but still I don't see enough evidence to convict. I'm not saying he is innocent but those cops made a mess of the case at least from the what the series showed.
As for bobby Dassey he didn't seem capable of any of it and manipulated by the cops.
Any comment on the 18 years he did for a crime he didn't commit?
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 04, 2016, 11:09:04 PM
Stew have you watched the series?
From the series there doesn't appear enough evidence to convict of murder. From the added material onlineive read since the series it paints Avery differently but still I don't see enough evidence to convict. I'm not saying he is innocent but those cops made a mess of the case at least from the what the series showed.
As for bobby Dassey he didn't seem capable of any of it and manipulated by the cops.
Any comment on the 18 years he did for a crime he didn't commit?
The problem is the series is rigged, if they thought he was guilty you would not have a series, too much money on the line to say he was guilty!
Yes, I have a comment on the 18 years he did for rape which he didn't commit, it was a disgrace, he did not deserve to spend a quarter or more of his life in jail for something he did not do, I will take that a step further, I hope if anybody tampered with the evidence at his rape trial gets caught and does some serious time, time should be added for the murder he is in for now because they helped cause that situation.
The Avery trial was Wisconsin's OJ trial, it was intense and hardly anyone thought him innocent, especially in Manitowoc and Two Rivers, the immediate area, the man is guilty all the way in my opinion.
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 11:42:09 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 04, 2016, 11:09:04 PM
Stew have you watched the series?
From the series there doesn't appear enough evidence to convict of murder. From the added material onlineive read since the series it paints Avery differently but still I don't see enough evidence to convict. I'm not saying he is innocent but those cops made a mess of the case at least from the what the series showed.
As for bobby Dassey he didn't seem capable of any of it and manipulated by the cops.
Any comment on the 18 years he did for a crime he didn't commit?
The problem is the series is rigged, if they thought he was guilty you would not have a series, too much money on the line to say he was guilty!
Yes, I have a comment on the 18 years he did for rape which he didn't commit, it was a disgrace, he did not deserve to spend a quarter or more of his life in jail for something he did not do, I will take that a step further, I hope if anybody tampered with the evidence at his rape trial gets caught and does some serious time, time should be added for the murder he is in for now because they helped cause that situation.
The Avery trial was Wisconsin's OJ trial, it was intense and hardly anyone thought him innocent, especially in Manitowoc and Two Rivers, the immediate area, the man is guilty all the way in my opinion.
...there was little or no money involved. Two filmmakers spent the better part of a decade covering the case, it started long before Netflix had any interest in original content ffs.
All of what you're saying it even addressed in it and it's quiet clear why locals and the general public thought he was guilty - the cops planted evidence, the same cops he was in the process of suing in a civil case for his first wrongful conviction no less, and Kratz made an absolutely incredible attempt to taint the jury pool with his grandstanding press conferences, none more so than the clearly rubbish confession they squeezed out of a mentally challenged 16 year-old.
You're making a show of yourself to be frank. You so clearly didn't watch the series because anyone who did couldn't hope to gloss over the glaring inaccuracies and tampering by the State and the police, who had a very good reason to pin the murder on Avery and whose involvement in this case at all should be a massive red flag to any person looking at the case halfways objectively. The takeaway is how utterly broken the justice system is in America.
Just completed watching this and I'm keen to read more on the case. It was a brilliant and engaging peice of programming. There is obviously a lot of commentary and analysis on the net now regarding the situation and it will be interesting to read through it.
Binge-watched the series at the weekend and have read bits and pieces since. A few thoughts:
I think he was probably guilty, although there are a number of questions that needed to be followed up that the cops never did
I think the cops planted evidence to make sure he was caught, and I think it is possible that he was innocent. If the cops had done their jobs properly all these other threads would have been followed up and closed out.
I don't think Brendan had anything to do with it, though I thought Bobby and the step father were more than dodgy.
(edit: Brendan/Bobby)
I think Bobby and Brendan are getting mixed up in this thread.
Brendan is the one locked up, not Bobby.
Seriously Stew, just watch the damn program.
Quote from: Smokin Joe on January 05, 2016, 06:38:23 AM
I think Bobby and Brendan are getting mixed up in this thread.
Brendan is the one locked up, not Bobby.
Seriously Stew, just watch the damn program.
True enough, edited
By the relaxed standards we employ on who is a Gael, Dean Strang is one of our own.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXf4Z_xWsAMUdfV.jpg)
(The story about this statue is explained here (http://www.thejournal.ie/dean-strang-hurling-statue-making-a-murderer-2-2530403-Jan2016/).)
Avery's defence were mostly about highlighting the inefficiencies of the police investigation and the possibility of Avery being framed. Latterly they focussed on the problems regarding the justice system during the appeal process.
It has recently come to light that a lot of the key evidence against Avery was omitted from the film by the programme makers and some of it is quite important.
I think the murder was committed by someone on the Avery site. Not 100% sure it was Avery and I think there was more than enough reasonable doubt not to convict him.
Quote from: Syferus on January 05, 2016, 12:20:17 AM
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 11:42:09 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 04, 2016, 11:09:04 PM
Stew have you watched the series?
From the series there doesn't appear enough evidence to convict of murder. From the added material onlineive read since the series it paints Avery differently but still I don't see enough evidence to convict. I'm not saying he is innocent but those cops made a mess of the case at least from the what the series showed.
As for bobby Dassey he didn't seem capable of any of it and manipulated by the cops.
Any comment on the 18 years he did for a crime he didn't commit?
The problem is the series is rigged, if they thought he was guilty you would not have a series, too much money on the line to say he was guilty!
Yes, I have a comment on the 18 years he did for rape which he didn't commit, it was a disgrace, he did not deserve to spend a quarter or more of his life in jail for something he did not do, I will take that a step further, I hope if anybody tampered with the evidence at his rape trial gets caught and does some serious time, time should be added for the murder he is in for now because they helped cause that situation.
The Avery trial was Wisconsin's OJ trial, it was intense and hardly anyone thought him innocent, especially in Manitowoc and Two Rivers, the immediate area, the man is guilty all the way in my opinion.
...there was little or no money involved. Two filmmakers spent the better part of a decade covering the case, it started long before Netflix had any interest in original content ffs.
All of what you're saying it even addressed in it and it's quiet clear why locals and the general public thought he was guilty - the cops planted evidence, the same cops he was in the process of suing in a civil case for his first wrongful conviction no less, and Kratz made an absolutely incredible attempt to taint the jury pool with his grandstanding press conferences, none more so than the clearly rubbish confession they squeezed out of a mentally challenged 16 year-old.
You're making a show of yourself to be frank. You so clearly didn't watch the series because anyone who did couldn't hope to gloss over the glaring inaccuracies and tampering by the State and the police, who had a very good reason to pin the murder on Avery and whose involvement in this case at all should be a massive red flag to any person looking at the case halfways objectively. The takeaway is how utterly broken the justice system is in America.
I watched yhe thing in real time and do not need to watch something that is slanted, its a bit like MSNBC or FOX, these two set out on a mission to make money and money and infamy they will make.
Armstrong did walk on the moon, true story!
Quote from: Smokin Joe on January 05, 2016, 06:38:23 AM
I think Bobby and Brendan are getting mixed up in this thread.
Brendan is the one locked up, not Bobby.
Seriously Stew, just watch the damn program.
Why, they left out key pieces of evidence ffs! They are looking attention and to make money and it is working, I lived here during this trial and the overwhelming majority of people wanted him convicted based on the evidence, why would I watch a contrived, agenda driven piece of crap from a couple of low integrity journos!
Quote from: stew on January 05, 2016, 12:01:20 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on January 05, 2016, 06:38:23 AM
I think Bobby and Brendan are getting mixed up in this thread.
Brendan is the one locked up, not Bobby.
Seriously Stew, just watch the damn program.
Why, they left out key pieces of evidence ffs! They are looking attention and to make money and it is working, I lived here during this trial and the overwhelming majority of people wanted him convicted based on the evidence, why would I watch a contrived, agenda driven piece of crap from a couple of low integrity journos!
Keep diggin. And keep hanging on to irrational positions.
Stew,you have to admit though that some of the circumstances of the case are worrying. I can't believe they didn't find the key until the 7th search,that's just too far fetched. The lack of her DNA is also baffling. I'm in no way convinced he's innocent,even his lawyers at the end didn't seem sure, but I'm neither sure of his guilt.
I was surprised during the trial that Avery didn't testify. Either him and his counsel believed that their case was that strong that he didn't have to or counsel was worried that the prosecution would rip him to shreds.
Quote from: Syferus on January 05, 2016, 12:08:17 PM
Quote from: stew on January 05, 2016, 12:01:20 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on January 05, 2016, 06:38:23 AM
I think Bobby and Brendan are getting mixed up in this thread.
Brendan is the one locked up, not Bobby.
Seriously Stew, just watch the damn program.
Why, they left out key pieces of evidence ffs! They are looking attention and to make money and it is working, I lived here during this trial and the overwhelming majority of people wanted him convicted based on the evidence, why would I watch a contrived, agenda driven piece of crap from a couple of low integrity journos!
Keep diggin. And keep hanging on to irrational positions.
You seem the type to believe anything you wstch, read or see, the journos have sheep all over the world signing a petition to free a murdering coward, funny, everybody I know over here knows he is guilty but you sheep, 3000 mile away know better because two evidence hiding hacks tell you so! No point debating the point, you tree huggers are beyond help!
I suppose the filmmakers have just made this up too Stew:
https://twitter.com/SherryPsychotic/status/684380268627623936
So. Let me get this straight, I lived through this trial that was akin to the OJ trial in terms of coverage in Wisconsin, I have known the details of this case for a decade, as does most people from the area, you feckers have known about the case since December the 185th and are now, based on ten hours of viewing a Netflix show, subject matter experts on the innocence of a psychotic piece of shit like Avery? f**k away aff you clampetts, seriously!
Quote from: stew on January 05, 2016, 06:08:43 PM
So. Let me get this straight, I lived through this trial that was akin to the OJ trial in terms of coverage in Wisconsin, I have known the details of this case for a decade, as does most people from the area, you feckers have known about the case since December the 185th and are now, based on ten hours of viewing a Netflix show, subject matter experts on the innocence of a psychotic piece of shit like Avery? f**k away aff you clampetts, seriously!
Like talking to a parrot. Nothing will make you even doubt what are dubious at best convictions.
Quote from: Syferus on January 05, 2016, 06:18:05 PM
Quote from: stew on January 05, 2016, 06:08:43 PM
So. Let me get this straight, I lived through this trial that was akin to the OJ trial in terms of coverage in Wisconsin, I have known the details of this case for a decade, as does most people from the area, you feckers have known about the case since December the 185th and are now, based on ten hours of viewing a Netflix show, subject matter experts on the innocence of a psychotic piece of shit like Avery? f**k away aff you clampetts, seriously!
Like talking to a parrot. Nothing will make you even doubt what are dubious at best convictions.
You people are incredibly arrogant, December 17th 2015 the vast majority of you never heard of Avery, feck this thread, it is bringing up bad memories but you eejits keep signing petitions to release this ****, and when he gets released and kills again,i will hold you accountable on here you fecking eejits!
Stew did you sit the jury? did you go to the trial to view it? Your knowledge of this appears to be from locals and their conversations around the time of the trial. Public opinion should not be used to convict a man and intellectually challenged boy for life.
I don't have the local knowledge you do obviously but sometimes looking at something from an outside point a view is better. Your opinion of that family seems to already have him convicted like he was incorrectly for 18 years.
As I said early and as a few other have said there appears to be a lack of evidence to convict of murder and questionable police work during the investigation.
Not sure why you get so agressive in your responses.
I don't think everyone on this thread is a tree hugger who thinks he's innocent,signed a petition and wants him released stew. It was a very interesting,thought provoking piece of television and people are naturally curious. The fact you were living in the area at the time must give you a fair insight into the case, be fascinating to hear your thoughts on why you're so sure of the pairs guilt.
Seems like Stew is not on his own. This is from: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3zlpi2/as_a_resident_of_manitowoc_county/cyn96vx
QuoteAgreed, as one who grew up in Sheboygan and is still nearby.
Local media (and radio) is so uniquely and collectively anti-Avery/Dassey. Liberal media? They dismiss the documentary (since it would make them look bad for their reporting at the time) Conservative media? They dismiss it too (radio host this morning this morning, 7:37 am (Newstalk 1130AM WISN), discussed Avery briefly on the air, said he isn't going to watch the documentary, and wouldn't talk further on "that turd of a person"... comments conveniently absent from their published podcasts for today.)
Dan O'Donnell, who was in the show during Episode 8, talked about it for an hour on Jan 30th, but said he doesn't need to watch the documentary, because he lived it. Spouted same talking points as prosecution, even bringing up Brendan's phone call in transcript, but not knowing anything about the police interview earlier in the day that prompted the call. His public contact information is on his page: http://www.newstalk1130.com/onair/common-sense-central-37717/
And yeah, "Common Sense Central" for his page.
Eh...either media outlet, and talking to people around here...you have a vast majority who did not watch it, never will, but Avery is "a turd of a person". Harder to find people who did watch it, but those who did are really in Avery's corner.
I locally worry about those that may end up interacting with the Manitowoc Sheriff. Someone who saw this show, getting pulled over by a Manitowoc Sheriff? That's tense right there. I'll be going to Manitowoc soon, hope not to get pulled over or anything.
But yeah, I'd hate to say we're not ostriches, but they way it's painfully playing out around here, it seems that we are. I'll keep the open mind and hope that Manty Sheriffs don't bury me.
f**k ye all............................... I am on episode 4 and I am saddened by the way Avery was treated in the sexual assault case, some of those bastards should be in prison!
My heart goes out to the two known victims of sexual abuse that happened to the women after he was imprisoned.
It's funny the way your mind plays tricks on you, I would have sworn Avery's IQ was 84 for some reason, not 70, the nephews was about the same.
This brings up some bad memories, for some reason it hit home more that the Simpson trial ever did, probably the close proximity of the thing.
The main men for the prosecution should be in prison right now the bastards, as usual the cops cover their collective asses.
I am profoundly sorry that Avery lost 18 years of his life, although a low life piece of crap his entire life he deserved better than that!
How the f**k can you live with yourself stitching people up?
I am entering the meat and potatoes of this documentary, but I already know a lot of what is coming and I will say this, the kids want nothing to do with him and some go as far as to say that they wish he had never got out, why? because he was a bully and a manipulator and they knew he was a vile, evil bastard!
Haven't watched this as this type of show just depresses and angers me, so I have no idea about his likely innocence as based on the evidence it presents, whether or not it is slanted.
But question for Stew - you talk about the local consensus at the time of the murder trial that this man was completely guilty. What was the attitude of the locals at the time this man was convicted for the rape or whatever it was he was later cleared of having done? Were they similarly confident in his guilt then?
To what extent is it a case of everybody just 'knowing' he's a bad bastard, and assuming he did it because that would be like something he'd do?
How was the ex boyfriend not a lead suspect??? the day the car was found on the yard, who were the only search crew given a camera by the ex bf leading the search? Yip the ones who found the car which was so badly hidden it was unreal. as stated in the documentary surely Avery who had a crusher on site would have disposed of the car and all evidence inside it? Also the ex BF was able to get her voicemails one day online by guessing her password??? Also Halbach had been getting pestering phonecalls for weeks leading up to the murder and by her colleagues admission 'from a number she seemed to recognise' SURELY the ex bf should have been no1 suspect.
Quote from: J70 on January 06, 2016, 02:44:24 AM
Haven't watched this as this type of show just depresses and angers me, so I have no idea about his likely innocence as based on the evidence it presents, whether or not it is slanted.
But question for Stew - you talk about the local consensus at the time of the murder trial that this man was completely guilty. What was the attitude of the locals at the time this man was convicted for the rape or whatever it was he was later cleared of having done? Were they similarly confident in his guilt then?
Yes, the problem is he is a hateful **** so people wanted to believe in his guilt to be honest.
Quote from: themac_23 on January 06, 2016, 10:42:59 AM
How was the ex boyfriend not a lead suspect??? the day the car was found on the yard, who were the only search crew given a camera by the ex bf leading the search? Yip the ones who found the car which was so badly hidden it was unreal. as stated in the documentary surely Avery who had a crusher on site would have disposed of the car and all evidence inside it? Also the ex BF was able to get her voicemails one day online by guessing her password??? Also Halbach had been getting pestering phonecalls for weeks leading up to the murder and by her colleagues admission 'from a number she seemed to recognise' SURELY the ex bf should have been no1 suspect.
This. Coupled with Officer Coburn's (who was a very naughty boy not filing a report in the mid-90s that might have got Avery released years earlier on the rape case) dispatch check of Halbach's car's reg days before the car was found makes it seem an awful lot like the cops found the car and then moved it onto the Avery lot themselves. Whether they believed Avery to be guilty or they wanted to ruin his civil case that was likely going to bankrupt the county it smacks of incredible malpractice.
Quote from: Syferus on January 06, 2016, 11:53:28 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on January 06, 2016, 10:42:59 AM
How was the ex boyfriend not a lead suspect??? the day the car was found on the yard, who were the only search crew given a camera by the ex bf leading the search? Yip the ones who found the car which was so badly hidden it was unreal. as stated in the documentary surely Avery who had a crusher on site would have disposed of the car and all evidence inside it? Also the ex BF was able to get her voicemails one day online by guessing her password??? Also Halbach had been getting pestering phonecalls for weeks leading up to the murder and by her colleagues admission 'from a number she seemed to recognise' SURELY the ex bf should have been no1 suspect.
This. Coupled with Officer Coburn's (who was a very naughty boy not filing a report in the mid-90s that might have got Avery released years earlier on the rape case) dispatch check of Halbach's car's reg days before the car was found makes it seem an awful lot like the cops found the car and then moved it onto the Avery lot themselves. Whether they believed Avery to be guilty or they wanted to ruin his civil case that was likely going to bankrupt the county it smacks of incredible malpractice.
During the time of the disappearance didn't Avery and the brother say that one night they saw lights and two trucks at the far end of their yard?
Interesting link in this blog to a lecture on saying why people should never speak to the police
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/07/why_you_should.html (https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/07/why_you_should.html)
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 06, 2016, 12:32:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 06, 2016, 11:53:28 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on January 06, 2016, 10:42:59 AM
How was the ex boyfriend not a lead suspect??? the day the car was found on the yard, who were the only search crew given a camera by the ex bf leading the search? Yip the ones who found the car which was so badly hidden it was unreal. as stated in the documentary surely Avery who had a crusher on site would have disposed of the car and all evidence inside it? Also the ex BF was able to get her voicemails one day online by guessing her password??? Also Halbach had been getting pestering phonecalls for weeks leading up to the murder and by her colleagues admission 'from a number she seemed to recognise' SURELY the ex bf should have been no1 suspect.
This. Coupled with Officer Coburn's (who was a very naughty boy not filing a report in the mid-90s that might have got Avery released years earlier on the rape case) dispatch check of Halbach's car's reg days before the car was found makes it seem an awful lot like the cops found the car and then moved it onto the Avery lot themselves. Whether they believed Avery to be guilty or they wanted to ruin his civil case that was likely going to bankrupt the county it smacks of incredible malpractice.
During the time of the disappearance didn't Avery and the brother say that one night they saw lights and two trucks at the far end of their yard?
Yeah, from the top of my head i think it was after the murder but before the car was discovered, said they seen lights on one of the old less frequently used roads into the site
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/making-a-murderer-steven-avery-jurors-feared-for-their-personal-safety-if-they-didnt-convict-subject-of-netflix-series-filmmakers-say-34341335.html
Nearly finished so reckoned I would chime in with my 2 cents worth.
No. 1 Young Dassey shouldn't be anywhere near this and the fact he lies in prison is shameful! He should be released immediately and the 2 investigators who coerced the statements from him should pay for it... At no point did any of his statements make sense!
Avery I'm not so sure. It's clear to see he's on the lower end of the scale and Stew may be right that he's the scum of the earth but he's still entitled to a fair trial which he didn't get from what I can see. There is no way she was killed in his garage. There is no way he stabbed her and tried to kill her in his trailer there would just have been too much blood around for either of these two things to happen and not one drop was found.
Along with that why wouldn't he have used the crusher for her car to remove all evidence from the yard? It doesn't make sense. Having said that to the best of everyone's knowledge he was the last one to see her so must remain the prime suspect but the evidence is too circumstantial, where was the motive? Where was the murder weapon?
Also the Manitowoc Sheriff's department's role in all this is despicable. Why say they are giving the case to Calumet County and then lead the investigation? Lenk and Colborn are clearly lying bastards and would do anything to sink Avery so how can they be in charge of finding key evidence against a man which they are patently biased against. That Sheriff's department should be cleaned out!!
To my mind there needs to be another trial away to f**k from Manitowoc where facts and arguments can be made to people not prejudiced either way by the case. The bias in the jury from the beginning, given the Prosecutor's grandstanding to the media before the trial, had to be there and it was always an uphill battle!! Avery needs a retrial!!
This case shows how mad some hick towns in America are you just can't question Law Enforcement at all and that's wrong!!
Quote from: screenexile on January 07, 2016, 09:29:36 AM
Nearly finished so reckoned I would chime in with my 2 cents worth.
No. 1 Young Dassey shouldn't be anywhere near this and the fact he lies in prison is shameful! He should be released immediately and the 2 investigators who coerced the statements from him should pay for it... At no point did any of his statements make sense!
Avery I'm not so sure. It's clear to see he's on the lower end of the scale and Stew may be right that he's the scum of the earth but he's still entitled to a fair trial which he didn't get from what I can see. There is no way she was killed in his garage. There is no way he stabbed her and tried to kill her in his trailer there would just have been too much blood around for either of these two things to happen and not one drop was found.
Along with that why wouldn't he have used the crusher for her car to remove all evidence from the yard? It doesn't make sense. Having said that to the best of everyone's knowledge he was the last one to see her so must remain the prime suspect but the evidence is too circumstantial, where was the motive? Where was the murder weapon?
Also the Manitowoc Sheriff's department's role in all this is despicable. Why say they are giving the case to Calumet County and then lead the investigation? Lenk and Colborn are clearly lying b**tards and would do anything to sink Avery so how can they be in charge of finding key evidence against a man which they are patently biased against. That Sheriff's department should be cleaned out!!
To my mind there needs to be another trial away to f**k from Manitowoc where facts and arguments can be made to people not prejudiced either way by the case. The bias in the jury from the beginning, given the Prosecutor's grandstanding to the media before the trial, had to be there and it was always an uphill battle!! Avery needs a retrial!!
This case shows how mad some hick towns in America are you just can't question Law Enforcement at all and that's wrong!!
A retrial is the obvious outcome.
The obvious *desired* outcome perhaps. Not necessarily the obvious outcome.
Quote from: gallsman on January 07, 2016, 11:43:28 AM
The obvious *desired* outcome perhaps. Not necessarily the obvious outcome.
I think it is the obvious logical outcome but will it be the actual outcome?!! I can't see that it will be there's too much at stake for too many people if this thing is done properly.
Anyone signing the petition for Obama should think again as he legally can't pardon any of the lads as it was a state crime not a Federal Crime!
Quote from: screenexile on January 07, 2016, 12:08:26 PM
Quote from: gallsman on January 07, 2016, 11:43:28 AM
The obvious *desired* outcome perhaps. Not necessarily the obvious outcome.
I think it is the obvious logical outcome but will it be the actual outcome?!! I can't see that it will be there's too much at stake for too many people if this thing is done properly.
Anyone signing the petition for Obama should think again as he legally can't pardon any of the lads as it was a state crime not a Federal Crime!
Why is it the logical outcome? The documentary suggests he was framed and wrongfully convicted - under the criminal justice sytem, that is not additional evidence that will overturn the conviction. It's not as if some judges in Wisconsin can sit there and watch the show thinking "jaysus, this lad really got it rough. Let's give him a new trial".
His defence attorney was on the radio this morning suggesting that they may be able to initiate a retrial in due course. Basically he said as a result of the series they had been contacted by numerous experts who were developing various tests which may bring new evidence to light.
Just finished watching it and found it fascinating.
At no point do the Police come across as trustworthy. The description of the crime as released in a press conference after Brendan Dassey's 'confession' is just completely
incredible. No way could he have articulated the description that the police offered to the press. He hardly ever even put a full sentence together never mind offer up the level of gruesome
description that you would normally find in a horror fiction story. It's just not believable. Looking at the tapes, the police put words in his mouth. How could there be no DNA or blood
in the trailer if any of that happened. It is impossible.
Finding the key on the 7th search was madness too. Plus the bullet turning up the day after Lenk returns to the scene. It all just stinks so badly.
It is also interesting how the jury began deliberations with 7 saying not guilty, 3 guilty and 2 undecided and ended with a unanimous guilty verdict.
The blood vial from the previous case was tampered with an a hole pierced in it. Who did that? And why?
Then the FBI find a way of testing the blood that can test for EDTA which wasn't previously possible. How can they prove the test was trustworthy?
The defense should have been allowed full transparency on the method of testing etc.
How do we know the test was ever done apart from the 'results' that were returned? Has any EDTA testing being admissable as evidence in any case since?
I don't know whether he did it or not but I don't know how he was convicted on the evidence presented.
http://fusion.net/story/250966/making-a-murderer-reading-list/
A bit more suggested reading..
I believe him to be guilty however the cops involved in this case that are dirty need life, I cannot believe I am saying this but Dassey needs to be let out and the other bastard needs a new trial in Milwaukee or beyond.
It's plain and simple, Avery was/is an uneducated, low IQ, trailer-park stereo-type. People and his like just end being banged up, whether its for what he does or what he is. Being guilty/innocent has no relevance to the Judiciary system. I'd say this sort of thing (framing)happens week in week out in middle America and beyond. Just that someone took a bit more interest in Steven Avery and it has got a bit more exposure so we the general public got to notice it.
When you have the Judge completely biased toward your conviction. A Nephew who is dumb with a Defence Lawyer not on his side and wanting him to plead guilty. A Police force who you showed up last time round and rubbed their nose in it. You are on a hiding to nothing.
Claire Daly took the Cops on in this country and they watched her and tried to nab her with Drink driving.
You take on the Police at your Peril!
I have first hand experience with the Manitowoc PD, I got a call from a manager at the US Cellular store in Manitowoc, the cops were in the store looking to know the calls from a ctn, (cellular telephone number) The problem is that legally you cannot give that info out until the bill is ready because at that point the length of the call and all pertinent information must be accurate.
The cops were squeezing him to help them out by divulging the information and stressing the importance of getting the number because it was needed in relation to a sexual crime, the manager called for advice and I told him to contact the company attorney and gave him the number, the thing is, they did not want to wait for the subpoena to get sent to them, and by the time I got there they were desperate for the information and applied pressure on me to give them what they needed, not big fans of following the law those two cops.
Quote from: stew on January 07, 2016, 05:02:39 PM
I believe him to be guilty however the cops involved in this case that are dirty need life, I cannot believe I am saying this but Dassey needs to be let out and the other b**tard needs a new trial in Milwaukee or beyond.
Fair play stew for going and watching it its not often someone changes their mind on here. I'd say its crazy to know some of the folk involved.
I'm just getting through 9 & 10 here it's incredible stuff!!
Hopefully something can be done to get the young lad out but it just goes to show the blind faith these people on juries have for law enforcement and take everything they say as gospel.
Quote from: screenexile on January 07, 2016, 10:05:24 PM
Quote from: stew on January 07, 2016, 05:02:39 PM
I believe him to be guilty however the cops involved in this case that are dirty need life, I cannot believe I am saying this but Dassey needs to be let out and the other b**tard needs a new trial in Milwaukee or beyond.
Fair play stew for going and watching it its not often someone changes their mind on here. I'd say its crazy to know some of the folk involved.
I'm just getting through 9 & 10 here it's incredible stuff!!
Hopefully something can be done to get the young lad out but it just goes to show the blind faith these people on juries have for law enforcement and take everything they say as gospel.
Indeed, fair play stew for being open to reconsidering.
Two things in particular struck me - the public synopsis of Dassey's confession on live TV, wtf?? Are there no rules in the states about what can and can't be broadcast before a trial?? That kind of thing has to sway a huge amount of potential jurors who are watching.
If he did do it, it couldn't have been at that site or there would have been no end of forensics to back up the prosecution. Also, is it possible to burn an entire body down to a few bone fragments in a bonfire?? I would have thought you'd need something more industrial to do that. The defence didn't seem to question it though so perhaps it is possible
Watched it all...just finished it
Absolutely incredible by the police and prosecution. Give me the PSNI/Gardai anyday over those boys
What about Stevens new Girlfriend/penpal/granny who was writing to him whilst her husband was dying....wtf?!
Pity Brendan....Len for Lawyer of the year....what a crook....and his investigator crying over a blue ribbon?!?!
That TV style trial with 'post match analysis' daily where the players are asked questions on their performance is ridiculous. ...those trials were farcical with Hick Juries inevitably finding the men guilty despite the poor/tainted evidence and crooked cops
Young fella being questioned without a Lawyer or appropriate adult...cops over sitting right beside him...and the crooked as f**k hick judge ruling it admissible....mental!
Only in America
Quote from: Gold on January 08, 2016, 12:34:10 AM
Watched it all...just finished it
Absolutely incredible by the police and prosecution. Give me the PSNI/Gardai anyday over those boys
What about Stevens new Girlfriend/penpal/granny who was writing to him whilst her husband was dying....wtf?!
Pity Brendan....Len for Lawyer of the year....what a crook....and his investigator crying over a blue ribbon?!?!
That TV style trial with 'post match analysis' daily where the players are asked questions on their performance is ridiculous. ...those trials were farcical with Hick Juries inevitably finding the men guilty despite the poor/tainted evidence and crooked cops
Young fella being questioned without a Lawyer or appropriate adult...cops over sitting right beside him...and the crooked as f**k hick judge ruling it admissible....mental!
Only in America
Im waiting for someone to do a similar documentary on the death and aftermath of Richie Barron, we have our share of corrupt cops.
Let's not forget that the bastard lured TH to the site and that he openly spoke about torturing women and making a torture chamber, the key issue, a cop physically shook a bookcase and the keys allegedly fell on the floor.
I just heard a Judge saying Avery defence team were 'The best of the best' and ' The cream of the crop' That flies in the face on assessments of their performance, and by the way, I have not changed my position on Avery, but I have on Dassey in that he should be out and facing a new trial, but years from now, when the dust settles on this trial, there needs to be a reckoning, senior Attorneys, police officers and their leaders must be held accountable for their sins, if which there are many.
Whether Avery is innocent I cannot 100% say, but what I can is he nor Dassey (who I believe is 100% innocent) can be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt with the evidence given by the prosecution. It's a disgrace and I could literally write page after page of the reasons why ( which I'll likely do at some point lol )
Lenk, Colborn, Kratz, Fassbender, Kachinsky, O' Kelly and the two cops who took Dasseys original statement are rotten to the core. Maybe they thought they had the right man and we're going to do anything possible to put him away but that's not justice and they know Dasseys life is collateral damage for getting Avery, there can be no moral argument for their actions when a child's life is taken from him. They took the law into their own hands and manipulated the evidence. I've no doubt of that.
I remain sceptical about Teresa's ex boyfriend and something about her brother doesn't sit well with me either. The phone calls being deleted and her phone being hacked troubles me. Bobby Dassey and his father didn't come out of it well either. But NOBODY else was looked at, that alone is extremely poor police work.
A harrowing and thought provoking documentary series, i hope justice prevails, but that is rather in hope than expectation.
Does anyone believe the police could have killed her or she killed herself (that video she took of herself is strange in the extreme). Almost like a video a terminally ill person would make
Quote from: TF15 on January 08, 2016, 02:27:15 PM
Does anyone believe the police could have killed her or she killed herself (that video she took of herself is strange in the extreme). Almost like a video a terminally ill person would make
Avery killed her, absolutely no doubt in my mind, the problem is the cops could very well be the reason he walks because of the horrible job they did investigating the. case.
A pure sham
Jury presumed Guilty from the off instead of the other way around As for Dassey's Lawyer Len, he should never be allowed to defend anybody ever again
Unbelievable that that would happen in the Us in 2007
http://uproxx.com/tv/megyn-kelly-making-a-murderer-lawyers/
Stew Even though You changed your tune a lot from beginning of this thread , I would not want you on ""my Jury"" Just saying ;)
Any jury trial where the crime is covered in the media beforehand is flawed in my opinion. You are really relying on average joes like ourselves being completely ignorant of the crime until they hear the evidence in court. In a big crime, this very rarely happens and the jury *has* to have some residual opinion going into the case.
Look at Joe O'Reilly here. Now I'm sure he's guilty, but after the Late Late Show, and all the press coverage up to and including his arrest, how would you find 12 people that didn't have an opinion about the case.
And if there's one thing this board has shown me over the years, it's that people steadfastly hold onto their original opinions on stuff, even if they only have partial facts or even incorrect supposition beforehand. People become emotionally invested in not being 'wrong'.
The problem is this PD seem so inept and the trail will have gone so cold that there is no chance the real killer could be found.
Don't get me wrong I don't think Avery is any Saint and if he did kill her it wouldn't surprise me a whole lot but I don't understand why he would keep the car on site and why he would burn her in an open fire when they had a crusher and an incinerator on site.
Also one of his family could have done it as they don't seem the most mentally stable group and they could easily have done it to get Steven out of the picture or even worked in cahoots with Lenk and Kolborn, also Lenk and Kolborn could have done it themselves or the ex boyfriend and brother look extra shady!!
Interestingly Steve Avery believes it could have been Chuck and Earl Avery. Sadly, as I said before, the police had only one target and had tunnel vision. In your opinion Stew where and how did Avery kill her? That's where there is concrete reasonable doubt.
Quote from: TF15 on January 08, 2016, 02:50:00 PM
Interestingly Steve Avery believes it could have been Chuck and Earl Avery. Sadly, as I said before, the police had only one target and had tunnel vision. In your opinion Stew where and how did Avery kill her? That's where there is concrete reasonable doubt.
There is a ton of evidence against Avery lads, his sweat was found under the hood of her car, phone calls, blood in the vehicle, sworn testimony that he talked about setting up a prison and about raping and killing, it goes on and on.
43rd
But the timeline and events of the murder are what the case is built on as her DNA could not be found on his property, or rope fibres. There is not one trace that she was ever in the trailer or garage.
Quote from: fearbrags on January 08, 2016, 02:36:30 PM
A pure sham
Jury presumed Guilty from the off instead of the other way around As for Dassey's Lawyer Len, he should never be allowed to defend anybody ever again
Unbelievable that that would happen in the Us in 2007
http://uproxx.com/tv/megyn-kelly-making-a-murderer-lawyers/
Really, I recall 3 of the jury said they thought him guilty initially, the jury looked at the evidence and convicted him.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 08, 2016, 02:43:43 PM
Any jury trial where the crime is covered in the media beforehand is flawed in my opinion. You are really relying on average joes like ourselves being completely ignorant of the crime until they hear the evidence in court. In a big crime, this very rarely happens and the jury *has* to have some residual opinion going into the case.
Look at Joe O'Reilly here. Now I'm sure he's guilty, but after the Late Late Show, and all the press coverage up to and including his arrest, how would you find 12 people that didn't have an opinion about the case.
And if there's one thing this board has shown me over the years, it's that people steadfastly hold onto their original opinions on stuff, even if they only have partial facts or even incorrect supposition beforehand. People become emotionally invested in not being 'wrong'.
Look at the murder of Joanna Yeates in the UK and the trial by media of her landlord Christopher Jeffries because he was a bit odd? There were lads on here declaring him guilty ffs.
"""Really, I recall 3 of the jury said they thought him guilty initially, the jury looked at the evidence and convicted him.""
A jury convicted ""Dassey"" too
A jury also Convicted Avery in the first trial too
Quote from: stew on January 08, 2016, 04:11:45 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on January 08, 2016, 02:36:30 PM
A pure sham
Jury presumed Guilty from the off instead of the other way around As for Dassey's Lawyer Len, he should never be allowed to defend anybody ever again
Unbelievable that that would happen in the Us in 2007
http://uproxx.com/tv/megyn-kelly-making-a-murderer-lawyers/
Really, I recall 3 of the jury said they thought him guilty initially, the jury looked at the evidence and convicted him.
Or they were forced a few strong minded people
https://www.yahoo.com/katiecouric/former-steven-avery-case-juror-on-making-a-154605397.html
Just finished this and thought it was very one sided so it is now difficult to be objective about it after seeing Avery portrayed in a friendly light and much of the evidence undermined with the framing theory. In a way us being introduced to this case by this documentary series is like the Wisconsin public being introduced to the State prosecutors theory during the press conference after Deasey's "confession". So once that was in their head it was very hard to get it out again even tho they didnt even use that story during Avery's trail.
Anyway everything else aside I was more than a little bemused at the scientific evidence used during that trail by supposed scientific experts. The DNA lady with the big hair was using "common sense" according to the prosecution to arrive at her conclusions. What the feck does common sense have to do with scientific conclusions? Nothing that's what, it either is, or it is not. If according to procedure a contaminated test piece is void, then it is void. I dare say she did not write the procedure or had anything to do with it so she is in no position to alter it. Common sense opinions are irrelevant if the procedure is not followed.
Then there was the man who done the FBI blood test to prove whether or not there was traces of the blood preservative he concluded that the three blood samples that he did not test did not contain the preservative even tho he hadnt tested them....WTF....! Nothing only idle speculation based on his opinion, not scientific in the slightest.
Not to mention the fact that there wasn't a shred of scientific or direct evidence incriminating Dassey. The kid should be let out tomorrow. Avery... well its hard to know a retrail would be best, certainly the evidence as presented in the documentary would not appear to be enough to convict him.
Quote from: fearbrags on January 08, 2016, 02:40:37 PM
Stew Even though You changed your tune a lot from beginning of this thread , I would not want you on ""my Jury"" Just saying ;)
Why? if I was on a jury I was have to consider that at the time of the start of the trial he is innocent until proven guilty. Bring on a jury is serious business, it is one thing to sit her at my desk and talk to you lot, quite another when a man's life is on the line, I would be fair.
Just finished watching it.Really great show .
Not convinced he is innocent but based on what I watched can't see how he could be convicted either.
Is it Bobby who was Brendans brother? There was something about him and his dad(step dad maybe) that just didn't seem right. They were the two who said they went hunting but had all their times wrong,?
Brendan obviously deserves a re trial and is most likely innocent.
It's pretty obvious the Police planted the key and blood imo, whether this was to frame Steven or just to make sure he was caught because they knew he was guilty I dunno.
Have just finished watching it a second time. Have read quite a bit surrounding the case too. I'm less convinced of Avery's guilt now and totally convinced that Brendan Dassey is innocent.
Still think this murder was committed by a family member/s. Tadych and Bobby Dassey looked suspect but there's quite a bit of mileage in the theory that Chuck and Earle Avery were the two main protagonists. They both have a shocking criminal history of violence toward women.
Still think down the line Steven Avery will get a retrial.
I have watched the first 2 episodes and will now park it. Not that I have anytime for Stew's fanaticism on this particular issue but I can't trust the portrayal of the facts as depicted and have plenty of other things to do.
if they decide to do one on Leonard Peltier, then I would be interested but in all probability, pigs would learn to fly before that happens.
They should do one on Michael Cranney not awarding Noel McGinn a penalty in 1988.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 08, 2016, 02:43:43 PM
Any jury trial where the crime is covered in the media beforehand is flawed in my opinion. You are really relying on average joes like ourselves being completely ignorant of the crime until they hear the evidence in court. In a big crime, this very rarely happens and the jury *has* to have some residual opinion going into the case.
Look at Joe O'Reilly here. Now I'm sure he's guilty, but after the Late Late Show, and all the press coverage up to and including his arrest, how would you find 12 people that didn't have an opinion about the case.
And if there's one thing this board has shown me over the years, it's that people steadfastly hold onto their original opinions on stuff, even if they only have partial facts or even incorrect supposition beforehand. People become emotionally invested in not being 'wrong'.
If there was to be a re trial the same could now be said about a jury believing he is innocent before the retrial starts because of the Netflix documentry.
It will be very hard to find any jurors now who haven't heard about this and already formed an opinion about this case.
Quote from: Main Street on January 09, 2016, 02:08:36 AM
I have watched the first 2 episodes and will now park it. Not that I have anytime for Stew's fanaticism on this particular issue but I can't trust the portrayal of the facts as depicted and have plenty of other things to do.
if they decide to do one on Leonard Peltier, then I would be interested but in all probability, pigs would learn to fly before that happens.
My fanaticism?
I lived in the area. I have met some of the principals involved and unlike yourself I have known about Avery for 20 years, I also have an opinion on the subject and I am going to share them since this is a discussion board.
Quote from: laoislad on January 09, 2016, 10:00:01 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 08, 2016, 02:43:43 PM
Any jury trial where the crime is covered in the media beforehand is flawed in my opinion. You are really relying on average joes like ourselves being completely ignorant of the crime until they hear the evidence in court. In a big crime, this very rarely happens and the jury *has* to have some residual opinion going into the case.
Look at Joe O'Reilly here. Now I'm sure he's guilty, but after the Late Late Show, and all the press coverage up to and including his arrest, how would you find 12 people that didn't have an opinion about the case.
And if there's one thing this board has shown me over the years, it's that people steadfastly hold onto their original opinions on stuff, even if they only have partial facts or even incorrect supposition beforehand. People become emotionally invested in not being 'wrong'.
If there was to be a re trial the same could now be said about a jury believing he is innocent before the retrial starts because of the Netflix documentry.
It will be very hard to find any jurors now who haven't heard about this and already formed an opinion about this case.
It would be very easy. Netflix show isn't pulling massive ratings. As long as they go outside Wisconsin it will be easy to get a bunch of non-biased jurors.
It was fox last night on the orielly show. Meygan Kelly show.,it was on this morning on NBC and CBS, it is a huge story all over the country.
Quote from: stew on January 09, 2016, 04:50:38 PM
It was fox last night on the orielly show. Meygan Kelly show.,it was on this morning on NBC and CBS, it is a huge story all over the country.
But the discussion is the questionable conviction, not Avery's unquestionable innocence. Far, far easier to get a fair retrial now than it was to get a fair original trial in Wisconsin the first time around.
Quote from: laoislad on January 09, 2016, 12:10:50 AM
Just finished watching it.Really great show .
Not convinced he is innocent but based on what I watched can't see how he could be convicted either.
Is it Bobby who was Brendans brother? There was something about him and his dad(step dad maybe) that just didn't seem right. They were the two who said they went hunting but had all their times wrong,?
Brendan obviously deserves a re trial and is most likely innocent.
It's pretty obvious the Police planted the key and blood imo, whether this was to frame Steven or just to make sure he was caught because they knew he was guilty I dunno.
I would agree. I thought brendan's brother was very dubious.
It showed a lot wrong and really was quite sickening in places.
- people are clearly guilty till proven innocent
- the media greatly skew trials these days
- cops or da are more interested in a result than the truth and justice
- there is a huge outcry when people are picked out on the colour of their skin but this stinks of starting off with people being picked ou based on "social class"
The saddest thing about it was that the fact a woman was brutally murdered seemed a little peripheral.
The show was very slanted and I wouldn't be entirely convinced he is 100% innocent but due to how questionable a lot of the evidence and how much of it was basically just a hunt to pin avery it should have been thrown out.
Looks like some real stuff is beginning to happen: http://wbay.com/2016/01/08/illinois-...n-averys-case/
Zellner is quoted as saying: "whoever deleted Teresa Halbach('s) cellphone calls is either the murderer or part of coverup".
So I'd guess we might see expect some progress in relation to this.
http://m.yelp.co.uk/biz/kratz-law-firm-west-bend
Just finished the show there and found it very intriguing. Far too biased for me to form any rational opinion on the guilt or innocence of either men but the one thing that truly shocked me was the brass neck of the Manitowoc sheriff department during the trials particularly Colborn who despite being accused of being dirty and planting evidence was regularly seen on screen accompanying both men in and out of prison. Surely in the circumstances someone else should have been doing that job.
Quote from: David McKeown on January 09, 2016, 10:25:06 PM
Just finished the show there and found it very intriguing. Far too biased for me to form any rational opinion on the guilt or innocence of either men but the one thing that truly shocked me was the brass neck of the Manitowoc sheriff department during the trials particularly Colborn who despite being accused of being dirty and planting evidence was regularly seen on screen accompanying both men in and out of prison. Surely in the circumstances someone else should have been doing that job.
Very easy to tell Dassey isn't guilty. Blindingly so.
''
""Why? if I was on a jury I was have to consider that at the time of the start of the trial he is innocent until proven guilty. Bring on a jury is serious business, it is one thing to sit her at my desk and talk to you lot, quite another when a man's life is on the line, I would be fair.""
In fairness to You Stew I think you are ok, at least you changed your mind quiet a bit after watching the documentary
I would say we would agree that the way Dassey got treated was terribly and the very severe sentence and the investigation of his first lawyer showed a lack of empathy from the judge
The thing that was clear was that the prosecution wanted a result, in either case, however right or wrong that result may be.
You would wonder if judges work the same way.
Just finished this evening. The story portrayed by the documentary is pretty one sided. Clearly given the closing remarks by the judge who sentenced Avery, the viewers of the documentary are either not given access to some of the evidence presented against him, or the judge is also part of a conspiracy. I have to believe that it's the former.
The conduct of the investigation however is shockingly flawed at best. Choosing to ignore the contamination of a control DNA sample in a bench top research test would not be accepted in a review journal, allowing it to be record in a trial for a mans freedom is insane.
Found the treatment and conviction of Dassy to be hard going, brutal stuff there.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 10, 2016, 09:17:58 PM
The thing that was clear was that the prosecution wanted a result, in either case, however right or wrong that result may be.
You would wonder if judges work the same way.
You mean like every trial in the history of trials, the prosecution wanted a result? Wtf!
It is their job to get a result man dear!
Quote from: fearbrags on January 10, 2016, 09:09:05 PM
''
""Why? if I was on a jury I was have to consider that at the time of the start of the trial he is innocent until proven guilty. Bring on a jury is serious business, it is one thing to sit her at my desk and talk to you lot, quite another when a man's life is on the line, I would be fair.""
In fairness to You Stew I think you are ok, at least you changed your mind quiet a bit after watching the documentary
I would say we would agree that the way Dassey got treated was terribly and the very severe sentence and the investigation of his first lawyer showed a lack of empathy from the judge
I think Dassey knows what went on, he most assuredly knows what a **** his uncle is, should he be in prison at the minute, no! He should get a re-trial immediately, as for Avery, they should throw away the key, a horrible bastard who killed TH with malice of forethought, he was obsessed with her, the phone evidence, blood, sweat, you name it!
Just finished the series. My emotions went from disbelief to anger and back again throughout the episodes.
To my mind the system itself is fundamentally flawed and reading through some interviews with the programme makers they made some interesting points:
Why prosecutors in so many cases, not just this one, are so eager to go after the first person they've accused, even when doubts spring up?
I think it comes down to the public attitude. The public cares about prosecutors' conviction rates. It's about winning the trial. So if you've started to build the case against one person, and information [that contradicts it] comes, it's potentially a weak choice to change course, because the defense can point to, "Well, you thought it was this other person." So that's evidence that it's not the person you're now saying it is. If the system prioritizes conviction rates rather than having just verdicts, and if that's voted that way in elections, the problem will just continue. So elected officials are taking their cues from their constituents, and if constituents are saying, "we're not interested in you running on a platform of tough on crime — what we're interested in is you doing an ethical job and pursuing justice," I think in that sense, then elected officials probably will feel less pressure.
I also think it's interesting to note that the vast majority of cases don't even go to trial. Most defendants plead out, so when a prosecutor is in a position of taking a matter to trial, it's a significant investment of their time and their resources, and they're in it to win.
So if the focus and the objective of prosecutors shifts away from winning to doing justice, and then if they come across potentially exculpatory evidence [which could prove the defendant is not guilty] or actually exculpatory evidence, that person might be more inclined to turn it over to the defense, as they're required to. You'd see fewer abuses and things of that nature, and the system would be fairer.
The law is an ass and I was brought up to believe that innocent until proven guilty is the standard approach but obviously that outlook isn't the standard within the America Justice system
Stew, you had asked about how those who think Avery was innocent could explain away all the "missing evidence" that was left out of the Netflix documentary.
Have a read of this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurd...sing_evidence/
Quote from: hardstation on January 13, 2016, 12:25:54 AM
The Avery family accent is class.
It's a bit like the Fargo one.
All them Minnesota/Wisconsin lads have a weird accent. It's like Scandinavian crossed with Canadian.
I Binge watched the series over the weekend and only have episode 10 to watch, so I think I am safe enough coming on here at this stage.
Whatever about Avery's innocence or guilt, surely there needs to be a federal investigation into the conduct of the Sheriffs department.
Avery may well be guilty, but I think there is little doubt that they acted, at best negligently in the investigation, and at worse actually planted evidence.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on January 18, 2016, 01:33:30 PM
I Binge watched the series over the weekend and only have episode 10 to watch, so I think I am safe enough coming on here at this stage.
Whatever about Avery's innocence or guilt, surely there needs to be a federal investigation into the conduct of the Sheriffs department.
Avery may well be guilty, but I think there is little doubt that they acted, at best negligently in the investigation, and at worse actually planted evidence.
Correct.
Avery's mother has came out and said that she is not convinced the woman is dead at all as they have never found the body.
Quote from: TF15 on January 08, 2016, 02:14:43 PM
Whether Avery is innocent I cannot 100% say, but what I can is he nor Dassey (who I believe is 100% innocent) can be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt with the evidence given by the prosecution. It's a disgrace and I could literally write page after page of the reasons why ( which I'll likely do at some point lol )
Lenk, Colborn, Kratz, Fassbender, Kachinsky, O' Kelly and the two cops who took Dasseys original statement are rotten to the core. Maybe they thought they had the right man and we're going to do anything possible to put him away but that's not justice and they know Dasseys life is collateral damage for getting Avery, there can be no moral argument for their actions when a child's life is taken from him. They took the law into their own hands and manipulated the evidence. I've no doubt of that.
I remain sceptical about Teresa's ex boyfriend and something about her brother doesn't sit well with me either. The phone calls being deleted and her phone being hacked troubles me. Bobby Dassey and his father didn't come out of it well either. But NOBODY else was looked at, that alone is extremely poor police work.
A harrowing and thought provoking documentary series, i hope justice prevails, but that is rather in hope than expectation.
superb and very intriguing documentary. The bit in bold, I was thinking the same. The brother seemed to overly court the media and limelight. Neither were investigated which is baffling.
Dexter (the blood splatter show guy) used to spend hours setting up his kill room to avoid any blood, DNA etc from being found. Yet TH supposedly gets shot in the garage with a thousand and one implements lying about and the room is blood and DNA free...seriously? The bedroom blood and DNA free? Crazy stuff
Quote from: themac_23 on January 06, 2016, 10:42:59 AM
How was the ex boyfriend not a lead suspect??? the day the car was found on the yard, who were the only search crew given a camera by the ex bf leading the search? Yip the ones who found the car which was so badly hidden it was unreal. as stated in the documentary surely Avery who had a crusher on site would have disposed of the car and all evidence inside it? Also the ex BF was able to get her voicemails one day online by guessing her password??? Also Halbach had been getting pestering phonecalls for weeks leading up to the murder and by her colleagues admission 'from a number she seemed to recognise' SURELY the ex bf should have been no1 suspect.
just finished it over the weekend. unbelievable that the ex boyfriend was not a lead suspect :o. also agree that teresa halbach's brother should have been investigated too.
Finished it at the weekend. Why was there not more made of the fact that none of her DNA was found on her own key. Just his? The whole case stank and I feel really sorry for the young lad.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/25/dead-certainty
Good article here about the flaws with the documentary.
Quote from: JoG2 on January 18, 2016, 02:35:56 PM
Quote from: TF15 on January 08, 2016, 02:14:43 PM
Whether Avery is innocent I cannot 100% say, but what I can is he nor Dassey (who I believe is 100% innocent) can be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt with the evidence given by the prosecution. It's a disgrace and I could literally write page after page of the reasons why ( which I'll likely do at some point lol )
Lenk, Colborn, Kratz, Fassbender, Kachinsky, O' Kelly and the two cops who took Dasseys original statement are rotten to the core. Maybe they thought they had the right man and we're going to do anything possible to put him away but that's not justice and they know Dasseys life is collateral damage for getting Avery, there can be no moral argument for their actions when a child's life is taken from him. They took the law into their own hands and manipulated the evidence. I've no doubt of that.
I remain sceptical about Teresa's ex boyfriend and something about her brother doesn't sit well with me either. The phone calls being deleted and her phone being hacked troubles me. Bobby Dassey and his father didn't come out of it well either. But NOBODY else was looked at, that alone is extremely poor police work.
A harrowing and thought provoking documentary series, i hope justice prevails, but that is rather in hope than expectation.
superb and very intriguing documentary. The bit in bold, I was thinking the same. The brother seemed to overly court the media and limelight. Neither were investigated which is baffling.
Dexter (the blood splatter show guy) used to spend hours setting up his kill room to avoid any blood, DNA etc from being found. Yet TH supposedly gets shot in the garage with a thousand and one implements lying about and the room is blood and DNA free...seriously? The bedroom blood and DNA free? Crazy stuff
Yep. Out of all the stuff on whether or not Avery is guilty; the cops are w**ks etc...... I felt zero empathy towards the brother and I found that odd. I don't think it's down to the film makers being biased either as he had very little exposure but he had this smirk at times that really annoyed me.
Quote from: thebigfella on January 19, 2016, 10:58:44 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 18, 2016, 02:35:56 PM
Quote from: TF15 on January 08, 2016, 02:14:43 PM
Whether Avery is innocent I cannot 100% say, but what I can is he nor Dassey (who I believe is 100% innocent) can be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt with the evidence given by the prosecution. It's a disgrace and I could literally write page after page of the reasons why ( which I'll likely do at some point lol )
Lenk, Colborn, Kratz, Fassbender, Kachinsky, O' Kelly and the two cops who took Dasseys original statement are rotten to the core. Maybe they thought they had the right man and we're going to do anything possible to put him away but that's not justice and they know Dasseys life is collateral damage for getting Avery, there can be no moral argument for their actions when a child's life is taken from him. They took the law into their own hands and manipulated the evidence. I've no doubt of that.
I remain sceptical about Teresa's ex boyfriend and something about her brother doesn't sit well with me either. The phone calls being deleted and her phone being hacked troubles me. Bobby Dassey and his father didn't come out of it well either. But NOBODY else was looked at, that alone is extremely poor police work.
A harrowing and thought provoking documentary series, i hope justice prevails, but that is rather in hope than expectation.
superb and very intriguing documentary. The bit in bold, I was thinking the same. The brother seemed to overly court the media and limelight. Neither were investigated which is baffling.
Dexter (the blood splatter show guy) used to spend hours setting up his kill room to avoid any blood, DNA etc from being found. Yet TH supposedly gets shot in the garage with a thousand and one implements lying about and the room is blood and DNA free...seriously? The bedroom blood and DNA free? Crazy stuff
Yep. Out of all the stuff on whether or not Avery is guilty; the cops are w**ks etc...... I felt zero empathy towards the brother and I found that odd. I don't think it's down to the film makers being biased either as he had very little exposure but he had this smirk at times that really annoyed me.
I keep thinking the same, but remember that it's real footage from interviews at the trial they're using of a guy whose sister has been brutally murdered. Only in the context of the documentary painting Avery as innocent can we look at him in this skeptical light. If it was a case in the news at the minute, your heart would be breaking for him.
Quote from: gallsman on January 19, 2016, 11:05:49 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on January 19, 2016, 10:58:44 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on January 18, 2016, 02:35:56 PM
Quote from: TF15 on January 08, 2016, 02:14:43 PM
Whether Avery is innocent I cannot 100% say, but what I can is he nor Dassey (who I believe is 100% innocent) can be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt with the evidence given by the prosecution. It's a disgrace and I could literally write page after page of the reasons why ( which I'll likely do at some point lol )
Lenk, Colborn, Kratz, Fassbender, Kachinsky, O' Kelly and the two cops who took Dasseys original statement are rotten to the core. Maybe they thought they had the right man and we're going to do anything possible to put him away but that's not justice and they know Dasseys life is collateral damage for getting Avery, there can be no moral argument for their actions when a child's life is taken from him. They took the law into their own hands and manipulated the evidence. I've no doubt of that.
I remain sceptical about Teresa's ex boyfriend and something about her brother doesn't sit well with me either. The phone calls being deleted and her phone being hacked troubles me. Bobby Dassey and his father didn't come out of it well either. But NOBODY else was looked at, that alone is extremely poor police work.
A harrowing and thought provoking documentary series, i hope justice prevails, but that is rather in hope than expectation.
superb and very intriguing documentary. The bit in bold, I was thinking the same. The brother seemed to overly court the media and limelight. Neither were investigated which is baffling.
Dexter (the blood splatter show guy) used to spend hours setting up his kill room to avoid any blood, DNA etc from being found. Yet TH supposedly gets shot in the garage with a thousand and one implements lying about and the room is blood and DNA free...seriously? The bedroom blood and DNA free? Crazy stuff
Yep. Out of all the stuff on whether or not Avery is guilty; the cops are w**ks etc...... I felt zero empathy towards the brother and I found that odd. I don't think it's down to the film makers being biased either as he had very little exposure but he had this smirk at times that really annoyed me.
I keep thinking the same, but remember that it's real footage from interviews at the trial they're using of a guy whose sister has been brutally murdered. Only in the context of the documentary painting Avery as innocent can we look at him in this skeptical light. If it was a case in the news at the minute, your heart would be breaking for him.
I'd still think that he was a cnut.
I struggle to believe that many of us on here would act any differently if it was our brother and sister. The thirst for vengeance would be overwhelming.
There are a few additional things that I find troubling about the so called evidence in this case.
One of the blood smears next to the ignition in the car is on the right side of the steering wheel. The cut they showed on Avery's hand is on his left hand. Are they seriously saying that he put the key in the ignition with his left hand?
Why are there none of Avery's finger prints in the car, just his blood? For there to be no finger prints he'd have to be wearing gloves, but if that was the case then how did his blood get on the car? Why would he need the car anyway as the burn bit is just a few metres away?
The sweat on the hood evidence is misleading to say the least. Firstly you can't conclusively say it is sweat. All you can say that his DNA is present. In addition to that the technition that collected the evidence has already admitted that he used the same gloves inside the car and under the hood. Regardless of the DNA evidence in the car, how can you have all of that blood without a single finger print?
The prosecution also claimed that the victim was shot multiple times and that she was burned in the burn pit. Firstly it is highly unlikely that a regular open fire could do that much damage to a body as it just wouldn't be hot enough. However, lets assume she was burned there for the sake of argument, then why was there no bullets found in the burn pit? Are they seriously saying that all of the bullets went through her body and none remained inside? Let's assume so bullets remained in the body, why would someone go to the trouble of picking them out of the ash but leave the bones?
I'm not saying Avery is a good person but it seems to me that in this case the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard was not even close to being met. As for Brendan Dassey's trial, that should tell you all you need to know about the Wisconsin legal system. Convicted on a coerced fantasy story that is not backed up by a single shred of physical evidence.
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 09:22:45 PM
I had a Retail Store in Manitowoc when this was going on
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 10:30:20 PM
I lived 35 miles from this maggot and I know all about his past
Quote from: stew on January 05, 2016, 11:58:15 AM
I watched yhe thing in real time and do not need to watch something that is slanted
Quote from: stew on January 05, 2016, 12:01:20 PM
I lived here during this trial
Quote from: stew on January 05, 2016, 01:16:39 PM
everybody I know over here knows he is guilty but you sheep, 3000 mile away know better
Quote from: stew on January 05, 2016, 06:08:43 PM
I lived through this trial .... I have known the details of this case for a decade, as does most people from the area,
Quote from: stew on January 06, 2016, 12:33:25 AM
This brings up some bad memories... probably the close proximity of the thing.
Quote from: stew on January 06, 2016, 01:05:10 AM
I worked out of seven Retail Stores during all of this in three counties, Manitowoc County, Sheboygan County and Calumet county, I know many, many people in this area as I have spent forty percent of my life in it
Quote from: stew on January 07, 2016, 08:08:12 PM
I have first hand experience with the Manitowoc PD
Quote from: stew on January 09, 2016, 12:20:45 PM
I lived in the area.
(http://www.keeneys.com/wp-content/themes/keeneys/images/we-get-it-paper.png)
OK Stew. You used to live in the area. We get that.
To be honest I'm quite impressed with the level of common sense shown on the thread. Nearly everyone who has watched the documentary can see the obvious bias towards Avery and Dassey and while nobody can claim that Avery is innocent we can all see that he deserves a retrial... Dassey also.
From the documentary I've seen and the reading I've done afterwards it looks impossible that the prosecution have made their case beyond reasonable doubt. While he may have done it there is not anything close to enough evidence, motive, a murder weapon or a consistent cause of death or timeline of death. Add to that the impropriety of the DNA evidence on the bullet, the fact that the Manitowoc Sheriff's department were not supposed to be involved in the investigation yet were present when every 'significant' piece of evidence was found. The whole thing is a clusterfuck!
It just highlights the ridiculous imbalance in the justice system and the absolute blindness that regular Americans have in favour of their security forces and and prosecutors that they are unwilling to accept that they are human also and make mistakes and are capable of improper conduct!
One thing that the documentary shows is that innocent until proven guilty is a complete myth. The burden of proof where supposed to fall on the prosecution clearly doesn't. I actually think there was reasonable doubt in both the prosecution's and the defence's case but the jury ultimately went with the prosecution when that clearly should not happen!!
The thing is the imbalance in the netflix show is probably the kind of imbalance that you would see on certain american news tv stations on a daily basis. Whether you become brain washed or whatever to that kind of thing I don't know.
The fella is probably no angel but that whole "beyond reasonable doubt" thing does not seem to be being adhered to. So many things seem unclear and unproven and yet still guilty. It really does not reflect well on the justice system.
Stew, above post just messing about. (But seriously, we do get it. Enough already.)
Genuine questions though (from someone who is leaning strongly towards Avery being guilty). What are you views on these issues:
1. No blood/blood splatter/DNA found in the bedroom or the garage, the two places where she was apparently killed?
2. No bullets found in the remains after the fire (and only one bullet apparently found, not until after repeated searches) despite prosecution claims that she was shot "multiple" times (and again, no blood splatter anywhere)
3. Why was the blood sample tampered with?
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 19, 2016, 12:21:05 PM
The thing is the imbalance in the netflix show is probably the kind of imbalance that you would see on certain american news tv stations on a daily basis. Whether you become brain washed or whatever to that kind of thing I don't know.
The fella is probably no angel but that whole "beyond reasonable doubt" thing does not seem to be being adhered to. So many things seem unclear and unproven and yet still guilty. It really does not reflect well on the justice system.
It doesn't at all, but I think the point plenty of people are making is that it does society no favours to have millions of people demand "justice" off the back of a clearly biased TV show. 400,000 people petitioning Obama to pardon Avery in a case where he has no jurisdiction ffs.
Serial was a much better, neutral investigation where Koenig simply put the facts out and asked the listeners to decide, and wasn't afraid to put difficult questions to the "guilty" party. As has been mentioned in the article I posted above, the show is not an investigation. The producers have decided Avery is innocent (which, based on watching it, you'd struggle to disagree with, or at least disagree with the basis of the conviction) and are determined to tell the story from that viewpoint.
"...one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." :-\
I cant decide like most of us on whether he is innocent or not. I have serious doubts over the ex boyfriend/ brother/ Bobby Dassey and the brother in law. They should all at the very least have been properly investigated.
The thing that is standing out to everyone is obviously beyond reasonable doubt and i dont think there is anyone who can question that. I know we were only shown so much etc but regardless of what was shown to counteract there was enough alone in all of that to acquit.
I agree he is probably a bit of a bad egg so to speak in terms of petty crimes etc and for the burning of the cat and god knows what else but murder i just dont know. What reason, motive etc would he have had, how did they clean up the crime scene etc. So many questions.
Someone had to do it so if not Avery who? I know the police planted the key and blood an whatever else they done but what i cant decide is whether they solely wanted to frame him regardless of who done it or if they knew he was guilty and wanted to give it a helping hand.
Quote from: tyrone girl on January 19, 2016, 02:21:02 PM
I cant decide like most of us on whether he is innocent or not. I have serious doubts over the ex boyfriend/ brother/ Bobby Dassey and the brother in law. They should all at the very least have been properly investigated.
The thing that is standing out to everyone is obviously beyond reasonable doubt and i dont think there is anyone who can question that. I know we were only shown so much etc but regardless of what was shown to counteract there was enough alone in all of that to acquit.
I agree he is probably a bit of a bad egg so to speak in terms of petty crimes etc and for the burning of the cat and god knows what else but murder i just dont know. What reason, motive etc would he have had, how did they clean up the crime scene etc. So many questions.
Someone had to do it so if not Avery who? I know the police planted the key and blood an whatever else they done but what i cant decide is whether they solely wanted to frame him regardless of who done it or if they knew he was guilty and wanted to give it a helping hand.
Are you still a lawyer?
The bit in bold is ridiculous - how can you possibly claim more than enough to acquit whilst acknowledging that you don't have half the evidence?! The jury decides (or should decide) based on ALL the evidence presented to them.
My point being though probably worded wrongly was that should i have been on a jury and shown stuff like this - that no matter what else they showed (obviously didnt show anything completely damming or its bound to have been known) i would have seen enough to let me think something isnt quite right here. You cant convict unless you believe beyond all doubt that the defendant is guilty. Bar them showing the jury a picture of him doing it there was enough in what we were shown to make you question things. If you question anything you have have reasonable doubt.
have been itching to jump on this thread, but managed to hold out until I actually finished the series.
First up- great tv, the two ladies that put that together will be offered huge amounts of money for their next series.
second of all, it is tv, no more no less. The overall bias of the show is not to Avery or Dassey, or even anti cop, it is to make the show more compelling. That's a big part of all of the evidence not being covered and a big part of why they covered Kratz's rock and roll lifestyle on the last show.
now- more to my own opinion and to the easy one first- Dassey should be given a retrial and be out on bail almost immediately. That was a shocking abdication of responsibility from his defense to allow that interview. When the judge ruled that to be the case, he should also rule that the "confession" during that interview also be struck from the record and be inadmissible.
second - Avery- i am not convinced of his innocence, nor of his guilt. In my opinion (which may well be wrong) i didn't see enough evidence either way, so, I think that means I have reasonable doubt.
Now that means retrial, the issue there is that the cops, by tampering with evidence (not incontrovertible- but highly likely), have very likely screwed the pooch completely if there is a retrial. Would there be enough evidence to convict if you remove dassey's testimony and you remove the fiddled evidence?
Those 2 defense lawyers of Avery's could name their price based on charm and empathy (maybe for a tv show now).
Kratz may have come across as slimy in the show, but was he in on the fix? That Dassey lawyer - I think his days in the profession are numbered- he's unusable now.
a couple of other points on the thread- first up- not only in America as some have said, there are bent cops everywhere there are cops. And even if these guys aren't bent- they certainly short-cutted the crap out of things to make it look like they are.
Stew, fair play- it must have been a bombardment of press during the initial events, and there was only one story being printed. I found the press interviews with Counsel after each days proceedings to be very interesting. They had more than an healthy dose of skepticism of the prosecutions efforts.
the other point that galled me in particular is the scientific evidence presented (though really only the evidence we saw), of all of the issues with the prosecution's case - the defense could and should have been able to drive a 'reasonable doubt" sized bus through the gaps and inconsistencies- no matter the profile of the jury. That to me was a significant failing on their behalf. The FBI agent's testimony was shameful, an absolute disgrace.
The FBI agent stating that he believed he could comfortably express his professional opinion as to the presence of Avery's DNA in samples he didn't test was absolutely scandalous.
When you day Dassey's lawyer, do you mean the first one, Kachynsky or the trial lawyer? Kachynsky was appalling.
Quote from: heganboy on January 19, 2016, 03:42:06 PM
have been itching to jump on this thread, but managed to hold out until I actually finished the series.
First up- great tv, the two ladies that put that together will be offered huge amounts of money for their next series.
second of all, it is tv, no more no less. The overall bias of the show is not to Avery or Dassey, or even anti cop, it is to make the show more compelling. That's a big part of all of the evidence not being covered and a big part of why they covered Kratz's rock and roll lifestyle on the last show.
now- more to my own opinion and to the easy one first- Dassey should be given a retrial and be out on bail almost immediately. That was a shocking abdication of responsibility from his defense to allow that interview. When the judge ruled that to be the case, he should also rule that the "confession" during that interview also be struck from the record and be inadmissible.
second - Avery- i am not convinced of his innocence, nor of his guilt. In my opinion (which may well be wrong) i didn't see enough evidence either way, so, I think that means I have reasonable doubt.
Now that means retrial, the issue there is that the cops, by tampering with evidence (not incontrovertible- but highly likely), have very likely screwed the pooch completely if there is a retrial. Would there be enough evidence to convict if you remove dassey's testimony and you remove the fiddled evidence?
Those 2 defense lawyers of Avery's could name their price based on charm and empathy (maybe for a tv show now).
Kratz may have come across as slimy in the show, but was he in on the fix? That Dassey lawyer - I think his days in the profession are numbered- he's unusable now.
a couple of other points on the thread- first up- not only in America as some have said, there are bent cops everywhere there are cops. And even if these guys aren't bent- they certainly short-cutted the crap out of things to make it look like they are.
Stew, fair play- it must have been a bombardment of press during the initial events, and there was only one story being printed. I found the press interviews with Counsel after each days proceedings to be very interesting. They had more than an healthy dose of skepticism of the prosecutions efforts.
the other point that galled me in particular is the scientific evidence presented (though really only the evidence we saw), of all of the issues with the prosecution's case - the defense could and should have been able to drive a 'reasonable doubt" sized bus through the gaps and inconsistencies- no matter the profile of the jury. That to me was a significant failing on their behalf. The FBI agent's testimony was shameful, an absolute disgrace.
I think that's the key to the flaw in the documentary. There was additional evidence that we the viewer didn't get to see. The documentary didn't tell the whole truth either.
In fairness, was it not a two or three week court case? I imagine there was a mountain of stuff that didn't make it into the show.
Right. But they really showed nothing damning of Avery, which in my mind made the Judge's sentencing remarks all the more strange.
QuoteIn terms of assessing your danger to society, the evidence forces me to conclude that you are probably the most dangerous individual ever to set foot in this courtroom. Your attorney has argued eloquently that the court should make you eligible for release at some point in the future. But from what I see, nothing in your life suggests that society would ever be safe from your behavior. One of the things that strikes me the most is that as you've grown older, your crimes have increased in severity. This crime was committed at a time when you were 43 years old. Given the trend of your crimes, uh... society has a legitimate right to be concerned that there is a serious risk you would reoffend and commit serious offenses if you're ever permitted to be released from prison."
I saw nothing in the documentary that warrants such commentary, which leads me to believe that there was some picking and choosing to tell the story.
Quote from: Puckoon on January 19, 2016, 05:56:47 PM
Right. But they really showed nothing damning of Avery, which in my mind made the Judge's sentencing remarks all the more strange.
QuoteIn terms of assessing your danger to society, the evidence forces me to conclude that you are probably the most dangerous individual ever to set foot in this courtroom. Your attorney has argued eloquently that the court should make you eligible for release at some point in the future. But from what I see, nothing in your life suggests that society would ever be safe from your behavior. One of the things that strikes me the most is that as you've grown older, your crimes have increased in severity. This crime was committed at a time when you were 43 years old. Given the trend of your crimes, uh... society has a legitimate right to be concerned that there is a serious risk you would reoffend and commit serious offenses if you're ever permitted to be released from prison."
I saw nothing in the documentary that warrants such commentary, which leads me to believe that there was some picking and choosing to tell the story.
Of course there was. But the real implication is the judge bought the prosecution's shoddy case hook line and sinker. The same judges refusing appeals in the Avery and particularly the Dassey case which had gross negligence by his defence shows you how blinded the judges in the area were and probably still are.
I think the real implication is that he based his judgement and sentencing off of more than we were shown, and as such was validated more than we think. It was a different judge for Dassey - and these comments were not attributed to him. I agree that his case should be revisited.
This is my take on it after watching the 10 episodes.One of the Avery's did it I suspect, not sure if it was Steven though. The cops suspected Steven from the start and tried to do the right thing by calling in the outside police department to investigate. They messed up when they lost patience with the outside agency and planted the car keys thus compromising the investigation. There's a good chance all parties involved are guilty of some type of wrong doing, one of the Avery's for murder and the Police for trying to set up Steven.
Dassey the poor kid needs to get a new trial.
NPR had a good piece this morning about the show
http://onpoint.wbur.org/2016/01/19/making-a-murderer-true-crime-documentary
The ex boyfriend guessing her voicemail password and having access to it seemed very dodge. Especially allied with the recount of her getting pestering calls prior to her disappearance.
Longform article from New Yorker.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/25/dead-certainty (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/25/dead-certainty)
Just finished it myself last night and although the documentary did seem to have an obvious bias, its very hard to argue with one major fact: There was no blood.
The Averys and Dasseys don't seem to be the most intelligent people, so to believe there was such a gruesome massacre of a body both within the house and the garage, without one single drop of blood, or indeed any DNA (including not on her key), being committed, is ridiculous.
Carpeted rooms, hundreds of items in the garage, yet nothing. It really doesn't add up.
To also be able to go on tv and describe in detail what 'happened' is scandalous, it was like something out of a horror film, which of course was their aim.
There's a lot that stinks about this case.
I see that reddit crowdsourced and raised a few thousand dollars to get all the transcripts of the entire Court Case (they've been uploaded).
Out of these transcripts it appears that Kratz produced the Call List to / from Teresa Hallbach's cell phone that was submitted as evidence!! It wasn't produced by the phone company, Kratz summarised the phone records (just showing certain calls) and apparently there were mistakes (incorrect timings) in his summary!!!
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/41srqs/kratz_prepared_the_phone_record_summaries_not_the/
He, Avery is as innocent as OJ.
Quote from: stew on January 21, 2016, 12:44:12 PM
He, Avery is as innocent as OJ.
He may well be Stew but it is his right to have a proper court and fair trial to determine it.
Quote from: GJL on January 21, 2016, 04:42:51 PM
Quote from: stew on January 21, 2016, 12:44:12 PM
He, Avery is as innocent as OJ.
He may well be Stew but it is his right to have a proper court and fair trial to determine it.
Absolutely.
Stew, I am forming my opinion from the documentary, which has obvious bias towards Avery, which I can acknowledge, likewise you are forming yours from what you know of him. Simply dealing with the cold hard facts of the case you can't categorically state 'he is guilty'.
Not sure if this was posted before, but an interesting theory.
http://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/could-this-making-a-murderer-theory-really-explain-the-whole-sorry-mess/527651
It certainly raises the question as to why the remains were found in three different sites.
Quote from: ThroughTheLaces on January 21, 2016, 12:24:02 AM
Just finished it myself last night and although the documentary did seem to have an obvious bias, its very hard to argue with one major fact: There was no blood.
The Averys and Dasseys don't seem to be the most intelligent people, so to believe there was such a gruesome massacre of a body both within the house and the garage, without one single drop of blood, or indeed any DNA (including not on her key), being committed, is ridiculous.
Carpeted rooms, hundreds of items in the garage, yet nothing. It really doesn't add up.
To also be able to go on tv and describe in detail what 'happened' is scandalous, it was like something out of a horror film, which of course was their aim.
There's a lot that stinks about this case.
It was their perceived lack of intelligence though I felt lent credibility to the fact there was evidence hid all around like parking the car down their own yard and not fully disposing of possible evidence like the bones.
Like pretty much everyone else on here I'm not convinced of Averys guilt but I am of the Police interfering.
Maybe I misunderstood but the time they found the bullet in the garage did they also find 10 or 11 empty shells?
Quote from: OakLeaf on January 22, 2016, 08:51:07 AM
Not sure if this was posted before, but an interesting theory.
http://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/could-this-making-a-murderer-theory-really-explain-the-whole-sorry-mess/527651
It certainly raises the question as to why the remains were found in three different sites.
Its certainly an interesting theory, and as plausible as the one they convicted Avery on.
Quote from: OakLeaf on January 22, 2016, 08:51:07 AM
Not sure if this was posted before, but an interesting theory.
http://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/could-this-making-a-murderer-theory-really-explain-the-whole-sorry-mess/527651
It certainly raises the question as to why the remains were found in three different sites.
Speculation like this does nobody any good whatsoever.
Quote from: gallsman on January 22, 2016, 11:19:18 AM
Speculation like this does nobody any good whatsoever.
True, but speculation like this is what you get when no one really knows what happened (except for the guilty parties).
Making a Murderer defence lawyer Dean Strang will appear on the Ray D'Arcy Show on Saturday night.
Might actually make it once of and watch Ray
Great television but even from the cover picture you knew which side this doc was falling on. Constantly showing Avery as a kid is a very clever way of getting the viewer on side, a kid could never do this. Like the news at the time showing Avery in the stripy criminal outfit, why would he wear that if he wasn't a criminal.
Some things which i found strange:
- The judge seemed to be saying that he had escalated from his previous rape
- Why were the FBI testing the blood?
- Lenny and O'Kelly seemed way too invested in a guilty verdict, crying FFS
- How was there no retrial for Dassey
- The FBI saying that he could be certain about the three other blood splatters!
- The cop, who disappeared after the first two episodes, can't remember his name, who said in court that he didn't believe Avery was innocent of the rape, why does the judge let that go?
- The ex-boyfriend who was hassling her, never even treated as a suspect???
- Lenks changing of his story and times to suit the case, it was outrageous but not seized upon
Bit late to the party but what a show!
I am absolutely flabbergasted that Avery and Dassey were convicted. How can anyone say "Beyond any reasonable doubt" these guys are guilty!! I think they are 100% innocent.
My mouth fell open numerous times about how bad the states case was and the conduct of the state lawyers and police. They rarely followed protocol, A lack of any real evidence and quite a bit of evidence that points to framing and corruption.
To say Brendan Dassy is a slow learner is a complete understatement, it would be my guess he is has ASD, and the way he was treated...disgusting.
at the very least, they deserve a retrial. The courts wont even review their cases.
W.T.F
Quote from: finbar o tool on January 28, 2016, 09:01:34 PM
Bit late to the party but what a show!
I am absolutely flabbergasted that Avery and Dassey were convicted. How can anyone say "Beyond any reasonable doubt" these guys are guilty!! I think they are 100% innocent.
My mouth fell open numerous times about how bad the states case was and the conduct of the state lawyers and police. They rarely followed protocol, A lack of any real evidence and quite a bit of evidence that points to framing and corruption.
To say Brendan Dassy is a slow learner is a complete understatement, it would be my guess he is has ASD, and the way he was treated...disgusting.
at the very least, they deserve a retrial. The courts wont even review their cases.
W.T.F
Hopefully the publicity will fund enough donations so they can appeal to the slightly-less kangaroo courts.
Dassey's first appeal lawyer knew is stuff and the fact that appeal was rejected might be the biggest red flag pointing to these small town court systems' insituationalised corruption.
Is it not the case that a retrial will only take place if new evidence becomes known. The last episode showed them appealing right up to the supreme court on the score that the investigation was a f**k up. So all (obvious dodgy activity by police/prosecutors) the stuff that's already been through the court is untouchable.
Quote from: omagh_gael on January 29, 2016, 11:47:54 AM
Is it not the case that a retrial will only take place if new evidence becomes known. The last episode showed them appealing right up to the supreme court on the score that the investigation was a f**k up. So all (obvious dodgy activity by police/prosecutors) the stuff that's already been through the court is untouchable.
They can appeal but they don't get lawyers so they need massive amounts of money to fund a proper defense team. Yet another flaw of the system.
Quote from: Syferus on January 06, 2016, 11:53:28 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on January 06, 2016, 10:42:59 AM
How was the ex boyfriend not a lead suspect??? the day the car was found on the yard, who were the only search crew given a camera by the ex bf leading the search? Yip the ones who found the car which was so badly hidden it was unreal. as stated in the documentary surely Avery who had a crusher on site would have disposed of the car and all evidence inside it? Also the ex BF was able to get her voicemails one day online by guessing her password??? Also Halbach had been getting pestering phonecalls for weeks leading up to the murder and by her colleagues admission 'from a number she seemed to recognise' SURELY the ex bf should have been no1 suspect.
This. Coupled with Officer Coburn's (who was a very naughty boy not filing a report in the mid-90s that might have got Avery released years earlier on the rape case) dispatch check of Halbach's car's reg days before the car was found makes it seem an awful lot like the cops found the car and then moved it onto the Avery lot themselves. Whether they believed Avery to be guilty or they wanted to ruin his civil case that was likely going to bankrupt the county it smacks of incredible malpractice.
few things like the above that you mentioned earlier Syferus, unbelievable to think things like this were not investigated or pressed more.
another one, that brother of Teresa Halbach, (didnt like him and he didnt come across very well), he accessed his sisters voicemail's days after her disappearance and the defense pretty much proved that someone deleted voicemail's from Teresa's phone.
putting 2 and 2 together you'd be drawn into thinking that her brother did that! why would he do that?? there is so many crazy things that happened, or didnt happen, in the investigation and trial its hard to remember them all!
Quote from: finbar o tool on January 29, 2016, 12:12:28 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 06, 2016, 11:53:28 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on January 06, 2016, 10:42:59 AM
How was the ex boyfriend not a lead suspect??? the day the car was found on the yard, who were the only search crew given a camera by the ex bf leading the search? Yip the ones who found the car which was so badly hidden it was unreal. as stated in the documentary surely Avery who had a crusher on site would have disposed of the car and all evidence inside it? Also the ex BF was able to get her voicemails one day online by guessing her password??? Also Halbach had been getting pestering phonecalls for weeks leading up to the murder and by her colleagues admission 'from a number she seemed to recognise' SURELY the ex bf should have been no1 suspect.
This. Coupled with Officer Coburn's (who was a very naughty boy not filing a report in the mid-90s that might have got Avery released years earlier on the rape case) dispatch check of Halbach's car's reg days before the car was found makes it seem an awful lot like the cops found the car and then moved it onto the Avery lot themselves. Whether they believed Avery to be guilty or they wanted to ruin his civil case that was likely going to bankrupt the county it smacks of incredible malpractice.
few things like the above that you mentioned earlier Syferus, unbelievable to think things like this were not investigated or pressed more.
another one, that brother of Teresa Halbach, (didnt like him and he didnt come across very well), he accessed his sisters voicemail's days after her disappearance and the defense pretty much proved that someone deleted voicemail's from Teresa's phone.
putting 2 and 2 together you'd be drawn into thinking that her brother did that! why would he do that?? there is so many crazy things that happened, or didnt happen, in the investigation and trial its hard to remember them all!
That's the problem with online detectives who make aspersions based on what they saw on a TV show. Some put 2 and 2 together and 5, others get 7, others get 56. I'd be interested to see how many of them get 4.
Halbach's brother does come across as very strange, but make no mistake, that's how the show intends to portray him. Also don't forget that this is a guy whose sister has been murdered and is getting told by the police that prior to this, she was also raped. A thirst for vengeance and irrational action would be, to put it mildly, understandable
Halbach's brother is the director of football tech in the Packers' front office these days, and was even employed back when the case was on-going.
Quote from: Syferus on January 29, 2016, 01:22:21 PM
Halbach's brother is the director of football tech in the Packers' front office these days, and was even employed back when the case was on-going.
The relevance of that being what exactly?
Quote from: gallsman on January 29, 2016, 01:42:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 29, 2016, 01:22:21 PM
Halbach's brother is the director of football tech in the Packers' front office these days, and was even employed back when the case was on-going.
The relevance of that being what exactly?
?
Quote from: Syferus on January 29, 2016, 01:46:14 PM
Quote from: gallsman on January 29, 2016, 01:42:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 29, 2016, 01:22:21 PM
Halbach's brother is the director of football tech in the Packers' front office these days, and was even employed back when the case was on-going.
The relevance of that being what exactly?
?
Pretty self explanatory in fairness. What relevance does the fact he works for the Packers have to the issues raised by the show that have subsequently been discussed in this thread,
Quote from: gallsman on January 29, 2016, 12:18:03 PM
Quote from: finbar o tool on January 29, 2016, 12:12:28 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 06, 2016, 11:53:28 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on January 06, 2016, 10:42:59 AM
How was the ex boyfriend not a lead suspect??? the day the car was found on the yard, who were the only search crew given a camera by the ex bf leading the search? Yip the ones who found the car which was so badly hidden it was unreal. as stated in the documentary surely Avery who had a crusher on site would have disposed of the car and all evidence inside it? Also the ex BF was able to get her voicemails one day online by guessing her password??? Also Halbach had been getting pestering phonecalls for weeks leading up to the murder and by her colleagues admission 'from a number she seemed to recognise' SURELY the ex bf should have been no1 suspect.
This. Coupled with Officer Coburn's (who was a very naughty boy not filing a report in the mid-90s that might have got Avery released years earlier on the rape case) dispatch check of Halbach's car's reg days before the car was found makes it seem an awful lot like the cops found the car and then moved it onto the Avery lot themselves. Whether they believed Avery to be guilty or they wanted to ruin his civil case that was likely going to bankrupt the county it smacks of incredible malpractice.
few things like the above that you mentioned earlier Syferus, unbelievable to think things like this were not investigated or pressed more.
another one, that brother of Teresa Halbach, (didnt like him and he didnt come across very well), he accessed his sisters voicemail's days after her disappearance and the defense pretty much proved that someone deleted voicemail's from Teresa's phone.
putting 2 and 2 together you'd be drawn into thinking that her brother did that! why would he do that?? there is so many crazy things that happened, or didnt happen, in the investigation and trial its hard to remember them all!
That's the problem with online detectives who make aspersions based on what they saw on a TV show. Some put 2 and 2 together and 5, others get 7, others get 56. I'd be interested to see how many of them get 4.
Halbach's brother does come across as very strange, but make no mistake, that's how the show intends to portray him. Also don't forget that this is a guy whose sister has been murdered and is getting told by the police that prior to this, she was also raped. A thirst for vengeance and irrational action would be, to put it mildly, understandable
i understand about the 2 plus 2 argument, i suppose i was just highlighting another dodgy thing about this case.
you could tell that Kratz had been in the brothers ear alright. he had his mind made up and no evidence was going to sway him.
IMO the case should have been a mistrial as soon as the Manitowoc County sheriff's department were heavily involved when a judge had ruled they take no(further) part in the investigation.
Quote from: finbar o tool on January 29, 2016, 02:43:20 PM
Quote from: gallsman on January 29, 2016, 12:18:03 PM
Quote from: finbar o tool on January 29, 2016, 12:12:28 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 06, 2016, 11:53:28 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on January 06, 2016, 10:42:59 AM
How was the ex boyfriend not a lead suspect??? the day the car was found on the yard, who were the only search crew given a camera by the ex bf leading the search? Yip the ones who found the car which was so badly hidden it was unreal. as stated in the documentary surely Avery who had a crusher on site would have disposed of the car and all evidence inside it? Also the ex BF was able to get her voicemails one day online by guessing her password??? Also Halbach had been getting pestering phonecalls for weeks leading up to the murder and by her colleagues admission 'from a number she seemed to recognise' SURELY the ex bf should have been no1 suspect.
This. Coupled with Officer Coburn's (who was a very naughty boy not filing a report in the mid-90s that might have got Avery released years earlier on the rape case) dispatch check of Halbach's car's reg days before the car was found makes it seem an awful lot like the cops found the car and then moved it onto the Avery lot themselves. Whether they believed Avery to be guilty or they wanted to ruin his civil case that was likely going to bankrupt the county it smacks of incredible malpractice.
few things like the above that you mentioned earlier Syferus, unbelievable to think things like this were not investigated or pressed more.
another one, that brother of Teresa Halbach, (didnt like him and he didnt come across very well), he accessed his sisters voicemail's days after her disappearance and the defense pretty much proved that someone deleted voicemail's from Teresa's phone.
putting 2 and 2 together you'd be drawn into thinking that her brother did that! why would he do that?? there is so many crazy things that happened, or didnt happen, in the investigation and trial its hard to remember them all!
That's the problem with online detectives who make aspersions based on what they saw on a TV show. Some put 2 and 2 together and 5, others get 7, others get 56. I'd be interested to see how many of them get 4.
Halbach's brother does come across as very strange, but make no mistake, that's how the show intends to portray him. Also don't forget that this is a guy whose sister has been murdered and is getting told by the police that prior to this, she was also raped. A thirst for vengeance and irrational action would be, to put it mildly, understandable
i understand about the 2 plus 2 argument, i suppose i was just highlighting another dodgy thing about this case.
you could tell that Kratz had been in the brothers ear alright. he had his mind made up and no evidence was going to sway him.
IMO the case should have been a mistrial as soon as the Manitowoc County sheriff's department were heavily involved when a judge had ruled they take no(further) part in the investigation.
That's the thing, while it appears highly unethical and given that Lenk found the key itb looks incredibly dodgy on the face of it, a mistrial is not just something that is handed down because of this or that. There will be clear grounds for what constitutes a mistrial, and while we'd all hope that the above would be among those, they're not just handed out because it looks wrong.
Brendan Dassey's conviction has been overturned.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/making-a-murderer-brendan-dassey-conviction-overturned-2016-8?r=US&IR=T
Quote from: laoislad on August 12, 2016, 09:38:04 PM
Brendan Dassey's conviction has been overturned.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/making-a-murderer-brendan-dassey-conviction-overturned-2016-8?r=US&IR=T
Wow.
Crazy it has taken this long to get sorted. Anybody who watched it knows the young lad didn't do it a horrible story.
He should take them up for it and get a whack of money. Such a pity of the lad it happening to him so young!
Hope his ma recorded all those wrestlemanias for him.
9+ years of his life wasted. Awfully sad for him
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 13, 2016, 12:33:06 AM
9+ years of his life wasted. Awfully sad for him
The guy had to mature and grow up in prison and you get the feeling that he won't have remained untouched by that. Unless he gets some amazing stabilising influence in his life, I really fear for him.
To be honest I fail to see how he can get back to a normal existence. The media attention will be off the scale and coupled with the fact he was mentally unstable in the first place I just can't see this ending well for brendan. Please God he does settle into some kind of normal life and he sues the relevant authorities for millions!
Quote from: square_ball on August 13, 2016, 08:31:10 AM
To be honest I fail to see how he can get back to a normal existence. The media attention will be off the scale and coupled with the fact he was mentally unstable in the first place I just can't see this ending well for brendan. Please God he does settle into some kind of normal life and he sues the relevant authorities for millions!
That didn't work out well the last time his Uncle tried to do it!
Quote from: laoislad on August 13, 2016, 08:48:11 AM
Quote from: square_ball on August 13, 2016, 08:31:10 AM
To be honest I fail to see how he can get back to a normal existence. The media attention will be off the scale and coupled with the fact he was mentally unstable in the first place I just can't see this ending well for brendan. Please God he does settle into some kind of normal life and he sues the relevant authorities for millions!
That didn't work out well the last time his Uncle tried to do it!
The prosecutor bollox with the tash and glasses....wonder what he's thinking now.
Trailer trash families will find it hard to change their lifestyle should the lad get compensation, will be influenced by ones around him and lose the lot and end up back in jail.... Lad had little or no education and very little support other than his grandparents and mother...
Where does this leave Stephen's case??
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 13, 2016, 09:08:21 AM
Trailer trash families will find it hard to change their lifestyle should the lad get compensation, will be influenced by ones around him and lose the lot and end up back in jail.... Lad had little or no education and very little support other than his grandparents and mother...
Where does this leave Stephen's case??
It's been a while since I watched it but was Brendan's testimony and confession used in Steven Avery's trial? If so then there must be huge doubts cast over his conviction!
Quote from: gallsman on January 29, 2016, 01:42:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 29, 2016, 01:22:21 PM
Halbach's brother is the director of football tech in the Packers' front office these days, and was even employed back when the case was on-going.
The relevance of that being what exactly?
It may simply be an interesting fact, is that ok?
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 13, 2016, 10:04:23 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 13, 2016, 09:08:21 AM
Trailer trash families will find it hard to change their lifestyle should the lad get compensation, will be influenced by ones around him and lose the lot and end up back in jail.... Lad had little or no education and very little support other than his grandparents and mother...
Where does this leave Stephen's case??
It's been a while since I watched it but was Brendan's testimony and confession used in Steven Avery's trial? If so then there must be huge doubts cast over his conviction!
I would have thought so, sure they implied they did it together.... Now if the nephew didn't do it..
Quote from: stew on August 13, 2016, 10:14:57 AM
Quote from: gallsman on January 29, 2016, 01:42:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 29, 2016, 01:22:21 PM
Halbach's brother is the director of football tech in the Packers' front office these days, and was even employed back when the case was on-going.
The relevance of that being what exactly?
It may simply be an interesting fact, is that ok?
No, not really.
Quote from: gallsman on August 13, 2016, 12:03:49 PM
Quote from: stew on August 13, 2016, 10:14:57 AM
Quote from: gallsman on January 29, 2016, 01:42:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 29, 2016, 01:22:21 PM
Halbach's brother is the director of football tech in the Packers' front office these days, and was even employed back when the case was on-going.
The relevance of that being what exactly?
It may simply be an interesting fact, is that ok?
No, not really.
It looks like it will have to do ya!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 13, 2016, 09:08:21 AM
Trailer trash families will find it hard to change their lifestyle should the lad get compensation, will be influenced by ones around him and lose the lot and end up back in jail.... Lad had little or no education and very little support other than his grandparents and mother...
Where does this leave Stephen's case??
Yeah, his mother didn't exactly seem like a rock of sense.
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 13, 2016, 10:04:23 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 13, 2016, 09:08:21 AM
Trailer trash families will find it hard to change their lifestyle should the lad get compensation, will be influenced by ones around him and lose the lot and end up back in jail.... Lad had little or no education and very little support other than his grandparents and mother...
Where does this leave Stephen's case??
It's been a while since I watched it but was Brendan's testimony and confession used in Steven Avery's trial? If so then there must be huge doubts cast over his conviction!
The arguments and timelines used in Avery's trial contradicted those used in Dassey's trial. The only evidence in Dassey's trial was the 'confession', which was about as credible as a modern Bank's balance sheet. That confession described a certain sequence of events, which were not the sequence of events used by the same prosecutor to convict Avery.
Whatever about Avery (I'm about 80% sure he didn't do it), Dassey (100% sure) had nothing to do with anything and the prosecutor knew it.
Judge has ordered the release of Brendan Dassey....
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 14, 2016, 09:17:29 PM
Judge has ordered the release of Brendan Dassey....
Great news!
I hope he sues the f*ck out of them. But then that didn't end well for his uncle.
Quote from: muppet on November 15, 2016, 01:18:08 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 14, 2016, 09:17:29 PM
Judge has ordered the release of Brendan Dassey....
Great news!
I hope he sues the f*ck out of them. But then that didn't end well for his uncle.
It is, whilst I disagree with you on the principal, I do agree this kid should be set free because of the way the bastard cops treated him, he has diminished capacity and probably should never have been in jail even though he was found guilty.
He will sue, he will win and he will be exploited by his own.
Now I want to see heads roll in the MPD.
Quote from: stew on November 15, 2016, 09:54:53 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 15, 2016, 01:18:08 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 14, 2016, 09:17:29 PM
Judge has ordered the release of Brendan Dassey....
Great news!
I hope he sues the f*ck out of them. But then that didn't end well for his uncle.
It is, whilst I disagree with you on the principal, I do agree this kid should be set free because of the way the b**tard cops treated him, he has diminished capacity and probably should never have been in jail even though he was found guilty.
He will sue, he will win and he will be exploited by his own.
Now I want to see heads roll in the MPD.
I completely agree with that.
There is no way in hell Dassey was guilty, whatever about the uncle. The prosecution used two completely different arguments in both cases. Both arguments couldn't be right as they had two completely different versions of events including place and cause of death. The judge in the Dassey case accepted the 'confession', as there was nothing else in the way of evidence. Anyone who watched the confession being extracted would never have believed a single word of it.
Quote from: muppet on November 15, 2016, 01:18:08 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 14, 2016, 09:17:29 PM
Judge has ordered the release of Brendan Dassey....
Great news!
I hope he sues the f*ck out of them. But then that didn't end well for his uncle.
Are my marbles gone AWOL again or did I not read this back in August?
Quote from: Hardy on November 15, 2016, 07:49:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 15, 2016, 01:18:08 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 14, 2016, 09:17:29 PM
Judge has ordered the release of Brendan Dassey....
Great news!
I hope he sues the f*ck out of them. But then that didn't end well for his uncle.
Are my marbles gone AWOL again or did I not read this back in August?
The judge ordered his release within 90 days. So they held him as long as they could.
Then the judge ordered his release pending his appeal.
Quote from: muppet on November 15, 2016, 08:29:24 PM
Quote from: Hardy on November 15, 2016, 07:49:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 15, 2016, 01:18:08 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 14, 2016, 09:17:29 PM
Judge has ordered the release of Brendan Dassey....
Great news!
I hope he sues the f*ck out of them. But then that didn't end well for his uncle.
Are my marbles gone AWOL again or did I not read this back in August?
The judge ordered his release within 90 days. So they held him as long as they could.
Then the judge ordered his release pending his appeal.
I thought his conviction was overturned? Does that not mean he's officially innocent? What does he have to appeal? How could they keep him in jail after he was declared innocent?
Exactly what i don't understand either.
Quote from: Hardy on November 15, 2016, 08:40:11 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 15, 2016, 08:29:24 PM
Quote from: Hardy on November 15, 2016, 07:49:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 15, 2016, 01:18:08 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 14, 2016, 09:17:29 PM
Judge has ordered the release of Brendan Dassey....
Great news!
I hope he sues the f*ck out of them. But then that didn't end well for his uncle.
Are my marbles gone AWOL again or did I not read this back in August?
The judge ordered his release within 90 days. So they held him as long as they could.
Then the judge ordered his release pending his appeal.
I thought his conviction was overturned? Does that not mean he's officially innocent? What does he have to appeal? How could they keep him in jail after he was declared innocent?
Sorry, my post reads as 'his appeal' which is misleading. It is the State who are appealing the overturning of the case, there may be a re-trial.
I don't think Dassey is innocent, I think he knows full well what happened TH, he may have helped get rid of the remains however, based on the way the cops conducted themselves he should not have been convicted at the time.
What scares me is that there is a friendliness between both defence attorneys and prosecutors in the area, and both are friendly with the police, I have had lunch in the courthouse pub and grill in Manitowoc manys a time and these people eat and drink together, in Green Bay, r0 miles down the road that would never happen, small town America I guess.
The reason for mentioning this is simply highlight the fact that if I am suspected of a crime in Manitowoc the last thing I would do would be to hire an attorney from that county as I would feel they are compromised based on their relationship with the MPD and the MCSPD.
Quote from: stew on November 17, 2016, 12:57:01 PM
I don't think Dassey is innocent, I think he knows full well what happened TH, he may have helped get rid of the remains however, based on the way the cops conducted themselves he should not have been convicted at the time.
Stew, why do you think the cops conducted themselves the way they did?
May it be perhaps because TH wasn't killed by Steven Avery?
Quote from: Smokin Joe on November 17, 2016, 01:05:43 PM
Quote from: stew on November 17, 2016, 12:57:01 PM
I don't think Dassey is innocent, I think he knows full well what happened TH, he may have helped get rid of the remains however, based on the way the cops conducted themselves he should not have been convicted at the time.
Stew, why do you think the cops conducted themselves the way they did?
May it be perhaps because TH wasn't killed by Steven Avery?
She was killed by Steven Avery!
Dassey knows the score, he is simply unfit to stand trial.
The cops acted the way they did because they thought they would get away with it, it is a small community and the cops and attorneys are very friendly, they thought they were bullet proof.
Quote from: stew on November 22, 2016, 03:20:54 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on November 17, 2016, 01:05:43 PM
Quote from: stew on November 17, 2016, 12:57:01 PM
I don't think Dassey is innocent, I think he knows full well what happened TH, he may have helped get rid of the remains however, based on the way the cops conducted themselves he should not have been convicted at the time.
Stew, why do you think the cops conducted themselves the way they did?
May it be perhaps because TH wasn't killed by Steven Avery?
She was killed by Steven Avery!
Dassey knows the score, he is simply unfit to stand trial.
The cops acted the way they did because they thought they would get away with it, it is a small community and the cops and attorneys are very friendly, they thought they were bullet proof.
I would also say the rest of the Avery's knew something also, regardless of the whether Steven did it or not (there was a lot of stuff that wasn't in the programme that came out about him) the way the police force and prosecution team went about their business was atrocious
Quote from: Syferus on January 05, 2016, 12:20:17 AM
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 11:42:09 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 04, 2016, 11:09:04 PM
Stew have you watched the series?
From the series there doesn't appear enough evidence to convict of murder. From the added material onlineive read since the series it paints Avery differently but still I don't see enough evidence to convict. I'm not saying he is innocent but those cops made a mess of the case at least from the what the series showed.
As for bobby Dassey he didn't seem capable of any of it and manipulated by the cops.
Any comment on the 18 years he did for a crime he didn't commit?
The problem is the series is rigged, if they thought he was guilty you would not have a series, too much money on the line to say he was guilty!
Yes, I have a comment on the 18 years he did for rape which he didn't commit, it was a disgrace, he did not deserve to spend a quarter or more of his life in jail for something he did not do, I will take that a step further, I hope if anybody tampered with the evidence at his rape trial gets caught and does some serious time, time should be added for the murder he is in for now because they helped cause that situation.
The Avery trial was Wisconsin's OJ trial, it was intense and hardly anyone thought him innocent, especially in Manitowoc and Two Rivers, the immediate area, the man is guilty all the way in my opinion.
...there was little or no money involved. Two filmmakers spent the better part of a decade covering the case, it started long before Netflix had any interest in original content ffs.
All of what you're saying it even addressed in it and it's quiet clear why locals and the general public thought he was guilty - the cops planted evidence, the same cops he was in the process of suing in a civil case for his first wrongful conviction no less, and Kratz made an absolutely incredible attempt to taint the jury pool with his grandstanding press conferences, none more so than the clearly rubbish confession they squeezed out of a mentally challenged 16 year-old.
You're making a show of yourself to be frank. You so clearly didn't watch the series because anyone who did couldn't hope to gloss over the glaring inaccuracies and tampering by the State and the police, who had a very good reason to pin the murder on Avery and whose involvement in this case at all should be a massive red flag to any person looking at the case halfways objectively. The takeaway is how utterly broken the justice system is in America.
I lived this trial, I was there before the film makers heard of Avery, I knew the principals a decade before anybody on here had ever heard of this case.
This show was a sham, a money making exercise, nothing mire, nothing less!
Quote from: stew on November 23, 2016, 07:58:09 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 05, 2016, 12:20:17 AM
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 11:42:09 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 04, 2016, 11:09:04 PM
Stew have you watched the series?
From the series there doesn't appear enough evidence to convict of murder. From the added material onlineive read since the series it paints Avery differently but still I don't see enough evidence to convict. I'm not saying he is innocent but those cops made a mess of the case at least from the what the series showed.
As for bobby Dassey he didn't seem capable of any of it and manipulated by the cops.
Any comment on the 18 years he did for a crime he didn't commit?
The problem is the series is rigged, if they thought he was guilty you would not have a series, too much money on the line to say he was guilty!
Yes, I have a comment on the 18 years he did for rape which he didn't commit, it was a disgrace, he did not deserve to spend a quarter or more of his life in jail for something he did not do, I will take that a step further, I hope if anybody tampered with the evidence at his rape trial gets caught and does some serious time, time should be added for the murder he is in for now because they helped cause that situation.
The Avery trial was Wisconsin's OJ trial, it was intense and hardly anyone thought him innocent, especially in Manitowoc and Two Rivers, the immediate area, the man is guilty all the way in my opinion.
...there was little or no money involved. Two filmmakers spent the better part of a decade covering the case, it started long before Netflix had any interest in original content ffs.
All of what you're saying it even addressed in it and it's quiet clear why locals and the general public thought he was guilty - the cops planted evidence, the same cops he was in the process of suing in a civil case for his first wrongful conviction no less, and Kratz made an absolutely incredible attempt to taint the jury pool with his grandstanding press conferences, none more so than the clearly rubbish confession they squeezed out of a mentally challenged 16 year-old.
You're making a show of yourself to be frank. You so clearly didn't watch the series because anyone who did couldn't hope to gloss over the glaring inaccuracies and tampering by the State and the police, who had a very good reason to pin the murder on Avery and whose involvement in this case at all should be a massive red flag to any person looking at the case halfways objectively. The takeaway is how utterly broken the justice system is in America.
I lived this trial, I was there before the film makers heard of Avery, I knew the principals a decade before anybody on here had ever heard of this case.
This show was a sham, a money making exercise, nothing mire, nothing less!
Brilliant!! Please tell us why Dassey is guilty, for starters. A tiny bit of evidence would be helpful.
Quote from: stew on November 23, 2016, 11:17:35 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 08:50:54 AM
Quote from: stew on November 23, 2016, 07:58:09 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 05, 2016, 12:20:17 AM
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 11:42:09 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 04, 2016, 11:09:04 PM
Stew have you watched the series?
From the series there doesn't appear enough evidence to convict of murder. From the added material onlineive read since the series it paints Avery differently but still I don't see enough evidence to convict. I'm not saying he is innocent but those cops made a mess of the case at least from the what the series showed.
As for bobby Dassey he didn't seem capable of any of it and manipulated by the cops.
Any comment on the 18 years he did for a crime he didn't commit?
The problem is the series is rigged, if they thought he was guilty you would not have a series, too much money on the line to say he was guilty!
Yes, I have a comment on the 18 years he did for rape which he didn't commit, it was a disgrace, he did not deserve to spend a quarter or more of his life in jail for something he did not do, I will take that a step further, I hope if anybody tampered with the evidence at his rape trial gets caught and does some serious time, time should be added for the murder he is in for now because they helped cause that situation.
The Avery trial was Wisconsin's OJ trial, it was intense and hardly anyone thought him innocent, especially in Manitowoc and Two Rivers, the immediate area, the man is guilty all the way in my opinion.
...there was little or no money involved. Two filmmakers spent the better part of a decade covering the case, it started long before Netflix had any interest in original content ffs.
All of what you're saying it even addressed in it and it's quiet clear why locals and the general public thought he was guilty - the cops planted evidence, the same cops he was in the process of suing in a civil case for his first wrongful conviction no less, and Kratz made an absolutely incredible attempt to taint the jury pool with his grandstanding press conferences, none more so than the clearly rubbish confession they squeezed out of a mentally challenged 16 year-old.
You're making a show of yourself to be frank. You so clearly didn't watch the series because anyone who did couldn't hope to gloss over the glaring inaccuracies and tampering by the State and the police, who had a very good reason to pin the murder on Avery and whose involvement in this case at all should be a massive red flag to any person looking at the case halfways objectively. The takeaway is how utterly broken the justice system is in America.
I lived this trial, I was there before the film makers heard of Avery, I knew the principals a decade before anybody on here had ever heard of this case.
I binge watched it and I really did not want to as it brought back bad memories I did not need to revisit, I am many things but a liar ain't one of them.
You are making a show of yourself, you have the temerity to watch a one sided,slanted documentary and you know without doubt what happened?f**k. Away off!
This show was a sham, a money making exercise, nothing mire, nothing less!
Brilliant!! Please tell us why Dassey is guilty, for starters. A tiny bit of evidence would be helpful.
Do I think he killed her..............No, do I think he saw Avery dispose of the body........yes, why yes I do, he bragged to Kayla who told counselors.
The kid was scared of his scary uncle, I get that, I get that a squirrel has more between the ears than he does but I refuse to respect the opinion of a man 3000 mikes away that forms his opinion on a case he knows because of a biased TV show!
I was there, I lived it and I have met some of the principals, no matter what way you cut it you don't know enough to know f**k all and i have zero respect for your opinion on this matter because you deserve none you arrogant tit!
Kayla, his
;D ;D ;D
I asked you to tell us how Dassey was guilty in any way.
Your answer is that you lived there.
I am amazed you haven't been appointed to the Supreme Court. ;D
Just because you know someone, regardless if they are a bad 'un, doesent mean they are guilty of murder stew !!
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 03:07:09 PM
Quote from: stew on November 23, 2016, 11:17:35 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 08:50:54 AM
Quote from: stew on November 23, 2016, 07:58:09 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 05, 2016, 12:20:17 AM
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 11:42:09 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 04, 2016, 11:09:04 PM
Stew have you watched the series?
From the series there doesn't appear enough evidence to convict of murder. From the added material onlineive read since the series it paints Avery differently but still I don't see enough evidence to convict. I'm not saying he is innocent but those cops made a mess of the case at least from the what the series showed.
As for bobby Dassey he didn't seem capable of any of it and manipulated by the cops.
Any comment on the 18 years he did for a crime he didn't commit?
The problem is the series is rigged, if they thought he was guilty you would not have a series, too much money on the line to say he was guilty!
Yes, I have a comment on the 18 years he did for rape which he didn't commit, it was a disgrace, he did not deserve to spend a quarter or more of his life in jail for something he did not do, I will take that a step further, I hope if anybody tampered with the evidence at his rape trial gets caught and does some serious time, time should be added for the murder he is in for now because they helped cause that situation.
The Avery trial was Wisconsin's OJ trial, it was intense and hardly anyone thought him innocent, especially in Manitowoc and Two Rivers, the immediate area, the man is guilty all the way in my opinion.
...there was little or no money involved. Two filmmakers spent the better part of a decade covering the case, it started long before Netflix had any interest in original content ffs.
All of what you're saying it even addressed in it and it's quiet clear why locals and the general public thought he was guilty - the cops planted evidence, the same cops he was in the process of suing in a civil case for his first wrongful conviction no less, and Kratz made an absolutely incredible attempt to taint the jury pool with his grandstanding press conferences, none more so than the clearly rubbish confession they squeezed out of a mentally challenged 16 year-old.
You're making a show of yourself to be frank. You so clearly didn't watch the series because anyone who did couldn't hope to gloss over the glaring inaccuracies and tampering by the State and the police, who had a very good reason to pin the murder on Avery and whose involvement in this case at all should be a massive red flag to any person looking at the case halfways objectively. The takeaway is how utterly broken the justice system is in America.
I lived this trial, I was there before the film makers heard of Avery, I knew the principals a decade before anybody on here had ever heard of this case.
I binge watched it and I really did not want to as it brought back bad memories I did not need to revisit, I am many things but a liar ain't one of them.
You are making a show of yourself, you have the temerity to watch a one sided,slanted documentary and you know without doubt what happened?f**k. Away off!
This show was a sham, a money making exercise, nothing mire, nothing less!
Brilliant!! Please tell us why Dassey is guilty, for starters. A tiny bit of evidence would be helpful.
Do I think he killed her..............No, do I think he saw Avery dispose of the body........yes, why yes I do, he bragged to Kayla who told counselors.
The kid was scared of his scary uncle, I get that, I get that a squirrel has more between the ears than he does but I refuse to respect the opinion of a man 3000 mikes away that forms his opinion on a case he knows because of a biased TV show!
I was there, I lived it and I have met some of the principals, no matter what way you cut it you don't know enough to know f**k all and i have zero respect for your opinion on this matter because you deserve none you arrogant tit!
Kayla, his
;D ;D ;D
I asked you to tell us how Dassey was guilty in any way.
Your answer is that you lived there.
I am amazed you haven't been appointed to the Supreme Court. ;D
I am not at your beck and call son!
Dassey told his neice Kayla he helped dispose of the body and that uncle Avery did the deed, he said he was pressured into it and that he was afraid for his own life, all of this was told to a social worker and got passed on to the police.
Since he told her within hours of the murder I and many people that live in the area believe the early version of events., what he told the police was a load of balls.
The evidence was there to convict him obviously as he stands convicted.
I believe he is guilty of helping Avery destroy the remains, I think he did it under duress and I think he should be freed based on the fact that the police screwed him over, well that and the fact he did not kill her, when you add in a 70 IQ the man needs let out and compensated by MPD.
Quote from: Smokin Joe on January 05, 2016, 06:38:23 AM
I think Bobby and Brendan are getting mixed up in this thread.
Brendan is the one locked up, not Bobby.
Seriously Stew, just watch the damn program.
I watched the bloody thing ffs!
It was very biased in my opinion.
Quote from: Minder on November 23, 2016, 03:22:58 PM
Just because you know someone, regardless if they are a bad 'un, doesent mean they are guilty of murder stew !!
Really?
Who said they were?
Quote from: stew on November 23, 2016, 07:50:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 03:07:09 PM
Quote from: stew on November 23, 2016, 11:17:35 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 08:50:54 AM
Quote from: stew on November 23, 2016, 07:58:09 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 05, 2016, 12:20:17 AM
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 11:42:09 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 04, 2016, 11:09:04 PM
Stew have you watched the series?
From the series there doesn't appear enough evidence to convict of murder. From the added material onlineive read since the series it paints Avery differently but still I don't see enough evidence to convict. I'm not saying he is innocent but those cops made a mess of the case at least from the what the series showed.
As for bobby Dassey he didn't seem capable of any of it and manipulated by the cops.
Any comment on the 18 years he did for a crime he didn't commit?
The problem is the series is rigged, if they thought he was guilty you would not have a series, too much money on the line to say he was guilty!
Yes, I have a comment on the 18 years he did for rape which he didn't commit, it was a disgrace, he did not deserve to spend a quarter or more of his life in jail for something he did not do, I will take that a step further, I hope if anybody tampered with the evidence at his rape trial gets caught and does some serious time, time should be added for the murder he is in for now because they helped cause that situation.
The Avery trial was Wisconsin's OJ trial, it was intense and hardly anyone thought him innocent, especially in Manitowoc and Two Rivers, the immediate area, the man is guilty all the way in my opinion.
...there was little or no money involved. Two filmmakers spent the better part of a decade covering the case, it started long before Netflix had any interest in original content ffs.
All of what you're saying it even addressed in it and it's quiet clear why locals and the general public thought he was guilty - the cops planted evidence, the same cops he was in the process of suing in a civil case for his first wrongful conviction no less, and Kratz made an absolutely incredible attempt to taint the jury pool with his grandstanding press conferences, none more so than the clearly rubbish confession they squeezed out of a mentally challenged 16 year-old.
You're making a show of yourself to be frank. You so clearly didn't watch the series because anyone who did couldn't hope to gloss over the glaring inaccuracies and tampering by the State and the police, who had a very good reason to pin the murder on Avery and whose involvement in this case at all should be a massive red flag to any person looking at the case halfways objectively. The takeaway is how utterly broken the justice system is in America.
I lived this trial, I was there before the film makers heard of Avery, I knew the principals a decade before anybody on here had ever heard of this case.
I binge watched it and I really did not want to as it brought back bad memories I did not need to revisit, I am many things but a liar ain't one of them.
You are making a show of yourself, you have the temerity to watch a one sided,slanted documentary and you know without doubt what happened?f**k. Away off!
This show was a sham, a money making exercise, nothing mire, nothing less!
Brilliant!! Please tell us why Dassey is guilty, for starters. A tiny bit of evidence would be helpful.
Do I think he killed her..............No, do I think he saw Avery dispose of the body........yes, why yes I do, he bragged to Kayla who told counselors.
The kid was scared of his scary uncle, I get that, I get that a squirrel has more between the ears than he does but I refuse to respect the opinion of a man 3000 mikes away that forms his opinion on a case he knows because of a biased TV show!
I was there, I lived it and I have met some of the principals, no matter what way you cut it you don't know enough to know f**k all and i have zero respect for your opinion on this matter because you deserve none you arrogant tit!
Kayla, his
;D ;D ;D
I asked you to tell us how Dassey was guilty in any way.
Your answer is that you lived there.
I am amazed you haven't been appointed to the Supreme Court. ;D
I am not at your beck and call son!
Bassey told his neice Kayla he helped dispose of the body and that uncle Avery did the deed, he said he was pressured into it and that he was afraid for his own life, all of this was told to a social worker and got passed on to the police.
Since he told her within hours of the murder I and many people that live in the area believe the early version of events., what he told the police was a load of balls.
The evidence was there to convict him obviously as he stands convicted.
I believe he is guilty of helping Avery destroy the remains, I think he did it under duress and I think he should be freed based on the fact that the police screwed him over, well that and the fact he did not kill her, when you add in a 70 IQ the man needs let out and compensated by MPD.
That is not correct Stew. He told his cousin he saw a body in the pit. The rest was part of the cofession.
He wasn't convicted on the evidence you stated. He was convicted on the made up confession. They never fond any of his DNA so there was no evidence to tie him to anything other than the confession.
Quote from: hardstation on November 23, 2016, 10:39:16 PM
To be honest, stew, you don't know a whole pile about this case at all.
He knows who is guilty though.
Quote from: hardstation on November 23, 2016, 10:39:16 PM
To be honest, stew, you don't know a whole pile about this case at all.
Aye but you boys know it all after watching a slanted ten part documentary, it was on the news every night for ages, I have read newspaper reports and given the time I have spent on it i think Avery killed her and Massey was coerced into helping dispose of the body.
Its just an opinion but you documentary experts know best!
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 09:58:58 PM
Quote from: stew on November 23, 2016, 07:50:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 03:07:09 PM
Quote from: stew on November 23, 2016, 11:17:35 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 08:50:54 AM
Quote from: stew on November 23, 2016, 07:58:09 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 05, 2016, 12:20:17 AM
Quote from: stew on January 04, 2016, 11:42:09 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 04, 2016, 11:09:04 PM
Stew have you watched the series?
From the series there doesn't appear enough evidence to convict of murder. From the added material onlineive read since the series it paints Avery differently but still I don't see enough evidence to convict. I'm not saying he is innocent but those cops made a mess of the case at least from the what the series showed.
As for bobby Dassey he didn't seem capable of any of it and manipulated by the cops.
Any comment on the 18 years he did for a crime he didn't commit?
The problem is the series is rigged, if they thought he was guilty you would not have a series, too much money on the line to say he was guilty!
Yes, I have a comment on the 18 years he did for rape which he didn't commit, it was a disgrace, he did not deserve to spend a quarter or more of his life in jail for something he did not do, I will take that a step further, I hope if anybody tampered with the evidence at his rape trial gets caught and does some serious time, time should be added for the murder he is in for now because they helped cause that situation.
The Avery trial was Wisconsin's OJ trial, it was intense and hardly anyone thought him innocent, especially in Manitowoc and Two Rivers, the immediate area, the man is guilty all the way in my opinion.
...there was little or no money involved. Two filmmakers spent the better part of a decade covering the case, it started long before Netflix had any interest in original content ffs.
All of what you're saying it even addressed in it and it's quiet clear why locals and the general public thought he was guilty - the cops planted evidence, the same cops he was in the process of suing in a civil case for his first wrongful conviction no less, and Kratz made an absolutely incredible attempt to taint the jury pool with his grandstanding press conferences, none more so than the clearly rubbish confession they squeezed out of a mentally challenged 16 year-old.
You're making a show of yourself to be frank. You so clearly didn't watch the series because anyone who did couldn't hope to gloss over the glaring inaccuracies and tampering by the State and the police, who had a very good reason to pin the murder on Avery and whose involvement in this case at all should be a massive red flag to any person looking at the case halfways objectively. The takeaway is how utterly broken the justice system is in America.
I lived this trial, I was there before the film makers heard of Avery, I knew the principals a decade before anybody on here had ever heard of this case.
I binge watched it and I really did not want to as it brought back bad memories I did not need to revisit, I am many things but a liar ain't one of them.
You are making a show of yourself, you have the temerity to watch a one sided,slanted documentary and you know without doubt what happened?f**k. Away off!
This show was a sham, a money making exercise, nothing mire, nothing less!
Brilliant!! Please tell us why Dassey is guilty, for starters. A tiny bit of evidence would be helpful.
Do I think he killed her..............No, do I think he saw Avery dispose of the body........yes, why yes I do, he bragged to Kayla who told counselors.
The kid was scared of his scary uncle, I get that, I get that a squirrel has more between the ears than he does but I refuse to respect the opinion of a man 3000 mikes away that forms his opinion on a case he knows because of a biased TV show!
I was there, I lived it and I have met some of the principals, no matter what way you cut it you don't know enough to know f**k all and i have zero respect for your opinion on this matter because you deserve none you arrogant tit!
Kayla, his
;D ;D ;D
I asked you to tell us how Dassey was guilty in any way.
Your answer is that you lived there.
I am amazed you haven't been appointed to the Supreme Court. ;D
I am not at your beck and call son!
Bassey told his neice Kayla he helped dispose of the body and that uncle Avery did the deed, he said he was pressured into it and that he was afraid for his own life, all of this was told to a social worker and got passed on to the police.
Since he told her within hours of the murder I and many people that live in the area believe the early version of events., what he told the police was a load of balls.
The evidence was there to convict him obviously as he stands convicted.
I believe he is guilty of helping Avery destroy the remains, I think he did it under duress and I think he should be freed based on the fact that the police screwed him over, well that and the fact he did not kill her, when you add in a 70 IQ the man needs let out and compensated by MPD.
That is not correct Stew. He told his cousin he saw a body in the pit. The rest was part of the cofession.
He wasn't convicted on the evidence you stated. He was convicted on the made up confession. They never fond any of his DNA so there was no evidence to tie him to anything other than the confession.
I am correct in what he said and who he said it to, the lad has more stories than he knows what to do with.
The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 11:50:14 PM
The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.
I know she recanted Muppet!
That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.
Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.
Quote from: stew on November 24, 2016, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 11:50:14 PM
The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.
I know she recanted Muppet!
That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.
Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.
I agree regarding Dassey.
If she recanted, and was the only evidence other than the 'confession', then Dassey should never have even faced trial.
I would be completely convinced of Dassey's innocence. But less so of Avery. I still think the police got no where near the correct story, which is what bothers me about Avery's conviction. I have a funny feeling it was another relative, or in-law, who did it and set up Avery. I think they burned her body and moved some of the remains to beside his shack to make it look more like he did it. In which case Avery wuld be innocent, but who knows.
Quote from: muppet on November 24, 2016, 02:41:57 AM
Quote from: stew on November 24, 2016, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 11:50:14 PM
The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.
I know she recanted Muppet!
That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.
Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.
I agree regarding Dassey.
If she recanted, and was the only evidence other than the 'confession', then Dassey should never have even faced trial.
I would be completely convinced of Dassey's innocence. But less so of Avery. I still think the police got no where near the correct story, which is what bothers me about Avery's conviction. I have a funny feeling it was another relative, or in-law, who did it and set up Avery. I think they burned her body and moved some of the remains to beside his shack to make it look more like he did it. In which case Avery wuld be innocent, but who knows.
Nah, Avery was besotted with Theresa and nobody would dare mess with him in his family, the whole case is madness.
I hope Dassey cripples the MPD financially and that he gets himself an honest trustee who will look after his financial future in the long term.
Now get after these bastard cops Mr D.A.
Genuine question stew - before the trial started, had you already made up your mind about Avery?
The reason I ask is that it seems like these things are played out on TV before it ever gets to court - I'm thinking specifically about the police press conference where they went through Dassey's confession - so it's difficult to get anyone in the locality who hasn't already made up their mind and therefore almost impossible to get a fair trial (generally in high profile cases rather than just this one)
Quote from: macdanger2 on November 25, 2016, 10:21:11 AM
Genuine question stew - before the trial started, had you already made up your mind about Avery?
The reason I ask is that it seems like these things are played out on TV before it ever gets to court - I'm thinking specifically about the police press conference where they went through Dassey's confession - so it's difficult to get anyone in the locality who hasn't already made up their mind and therefore almost impossible to get a fair trial (generally in high profile cases rather than just this one)
No is the simple answer, I watched the coverage and read the Green Bay Press Gazette, Milwaukee Journal as well as the Appleton Times, I listened to the details on the radio on my travels daily around the state.
I am not without sympathy for Avery, these bastards that were on this case are the same ones in some cases that put him away for many years for a crime that DNA proved he was not involved in, that cannot have helped his mental health.
I cannot mind how long it took for me to believe in Averys guilt, probably months, I do remember being very concerned at DNA setting him free, it spoke to police incompetence and possible bias in the face of pending litigation.
I spoke to a friend of mine the other day who was born in Manitowoc, his brother was a cop for two years in the Manitowoc PD and he hated it, he spoke of the level of hatred the cops had for the Averys, he did not say Steven, the family unit, he also said that he was always convinced of Averys guilt but is unsure about Dassey and would prefer he be released.
The overwhelming majority of people in Manitowoc thinks Avery is guilty according to my mate David, he knows them all and like everyone else in the State of Wisconsin followed the trial religiously.
Quote from: stew on November 30, 2016, 09:56:20 AM
I spoke to a friend of mine the other day who was born in Manitowoc, his brother was a cop for two years in the Manitowoc PD and he hated it, he spoke of the level of hatred the cops had for the Averys, he did not say Steven, the family unit, he also said that he was always convinced of Averys guilt but is unsure about Dassey and would prefer he be released.
The overwhelming majority of people in Manitowoc thinks Avery is guilty according to my mate David, he knows them all and like everyone else in the State of Wisconsin followed the trial religiously.
It's not what people think of him Stew, it's the evidence the jury have to decide on.
Innocent until proven guilty.
Quote from: Minder on November 30, 2016, 10:20:10 AM
Quote from: stew on November 30, 2016, 09:56:20 AM
I spoke to a friend of mine the other day who was born in Manitowoc, his brother was a cop for two years in the Manitowoc PD and he hated it, he spoke of the level of hatred the cops had for the Averys, he did not say Steven, the family unit, he also said that he was always convinced of Averys guilt but is unsure about Dassey and would prefer he be released.
The overwhelming majority of people in Manitowoc thinks Avery is guilty according to my mate David, he knows them all and like everyone else in the State of Wisconsin followed the trial religiously.
It's not what people think of him Stew, it's the evidence the jury have to decide on.
Innocent until proven guilty.
They were all convinced of Avery's guilt the first time as well. They never even looked at an alternative. Even when evidence showed up suggesting someone else did it, they ignored it until finally DNA proved Avery was innocent.
The local media coverage of the trial was atrocious even by US standards. Only towards the end did they begin to ask difficult questions of the prosecutor.
Quote from: stew on November 24, 2016, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 11:50:14 PM
The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.
I know she recanted Muppet!
That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.
Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.
Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.
Quote from: Main Street on November 30, 2016, 11:35:31 AM
Quote from: stew on November 24, 2016, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 11:50:14 PM
The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.
I know she recanted Muppet!
That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.
Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.
Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.
No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!
You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.
Quote from: stew on November 30, 2016, 01:25:45 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 30, 2016, 11:35:31 AM
Quote from: stew on November 24, 2016, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 11:50:14 PM
The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.
I know she recanted Muppet!
That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.
Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.
Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.
No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!
You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.
The early TV and media coverage was appalling. They were simply a vehicle for the local police to publicly blame Avery. In fairness to them, they did start to turn their attention towards the investigation at the end.
But the most shocking part was the behaviour of Lenk and the local PD. Lenk searched Avery's trailer 5 times and his bedroom in particular 3 times, before he personally found the key to Halbach's car. Lenk shouldn't even have been there. Manitowoc County PD had claimed they had recused themselves due to their previous error in assuming he was guilty and jailing him for 18 years. And yet Lenk was all over the case.
Lenk lied about the timing of his arrival at the Avery property after the crime was reported. Then there was the radio call asking if they had arrested Avery yet, long before anyone knew any details of the crime.
They used Dassey's 'confession' claiming that they (Avery & Dassey) had stabbed her to death in the bedroom, to convict Dassey, despite using evidence in Avery's trial that Avery had shot her somewhere else. The two stories are completely incompatible, but they convicted them both anyway.
I am not sure that Avery is 100% innocent. I am convinced Dassey is innocent. But I am also convinced that the Police skewed the investigation to get the result they wanted. Thus the 'investigative bias' completely undermines the convictions in my view.
Since I know what question is coming, here is why i think Avery did it.
He was obsessed with TH, he called her numerous times at work and on several occasions specifically asked for her to come to the compound.
I remember her being afraid of him after he came out to the door almost naked, after that she wanted nothing to do with him so he would use his sisters cellphone to her her with a made up name to get her out there, sadly, it worked.
They found a tooth belonging to TH in his fire pit, not only that they found a part of her Jeans in the same pit, the jeans she was wearing the day she died! How did they get there fellers!
Her PDA was found in the fire pit along with her phone and other items, camera maybe? Strangely enough when I watched the documentary I must have missed the part were they introduced this part of the evidence!
Avery called TH I think 4 times on the day she died, he punched in *67 to hide who was calling in the first calls but at half fout, quarter to five on the last call, he simply dials the number without blocking the number, strange that, was that reported on the documentary, I cannot recall if it was or was not to be honest.
Averys DNA was found on her car, a car he claimed never to have touched, they found this DNA either on the engine or the Bonnet or both, how did that get there?
He spoke to inmates about his desire to build a torture chamber on the compound and told them about the time he poured gasoline on his cat and set it on fire, he stated that fire gets rid of DNA evidence, to me the poor cat suffered as he was teaching himself how to take pleasure in the pain of others and how to hide the evidence!
Kayla's testimony was pretty damning, after pressure from family members she changed her story, I believe her initial story, what possible motive could she have to lie to those that could put her Uncle away?
Finally, there was a bullet found fired from Averys rifle, the one that hung above his bed, this bullet was in an evidence room since some time the first week in November, the whole planting the bullet thing does not stand up to scrutiny as the timeframe is out by roughly 5 months.
There is more but these are some of the main reasons why I believed in his guilt, and that is not even including Dasseys role in the whole affair!
Quote from: muppet on November 30, 2016, 01:54:10 PM
Quote from: stew on November 30, 2016, 01:25:45 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 30, 2016, 11:35:31 AM
Quote from: stew on November 24, 2016, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 11:50:14 PM
The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.
I know she recanted Muppet!
That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.
Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.
Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.
No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!
You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.
The early TV and media coverage was appalling. They were simply a vehicle for the local police to publicly blame Avery. In fairness to them, they did start to turn their attention towards the investigation at the end.
But the most shocking part was the behaviour of Lenk and the local PD. Lenk searched Avery's trailer 5 times and his bedroom in particular 3 times, before he personally found the key to Halbach's car. Lenk shouldn't even have been there. Manitowoc County PD had claimed they had recused themselves due to their previous error in assuming he was guilty and jailing him for 18 years. And yet Lenk was all over the case.
Lenk lied about the timing of his arrival at the Avery property after the crime was reported. Then there was the radio call asking if they had arrested Avery yet, long before anyone knew any details of the crime.
They used Dassey's 'confession' claiming that they (Avery & Dassey) had stabbed her to death in the bedroom, to convict Dassey, despite using evidence in Avery's trial that Avery had shot her somewhere else. The two stories are completely incompatible, but they convicted them both anyway.
I am not sure that Avery is 100% innocent. I am convinced Dassey is innocent. But I am also convinced that the Police skewed the investigation to get the result they wanted. Thus the 'investigative bias' completely undermines the convictions in my view.
How do you know the early media coverage was appalling? Source please!
Quote from: stew on November 30, 2016, 02:01:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 30, 2016, 01:54:10 PM
Quote from: stew on November 30, 2016, 01:25:45 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 30, 2016, 11:35:31 AM
Quote from: stew on November 24, 2016, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 11:50:14 PM
The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.
I know she recanted Muppet!
That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.
Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.
Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.
No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!
You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.
The early TV and media coverage was appalling. They were simply a vehicle for the local police to publicly blame Avery. In fairness to them, they did start to turn their attention towards the investigation at the end.
But the most shocking part was the behaviour of Lenk and the local PD. Lenk searched Avery's trailer 5 times and his bedroom in particular 3 times, before he personally found the key to Halbach's car. Lenk shouldn't even have been there. Manitowoc County PD had claimed they had recused themselves due to their previous error in assuming he was guilty and jailing him for 18 years. And yet Lenk was all over the case.
Lenk lied about the timing of his arrival at the Avery property after the crime was reported. Then there was the radio call asking if they had arrested Avery yet, long before anyone knew any details of the crime.
They used Dassey's 'confession' claiming that they (Avery & Dassey) had stabbed her to death in the bedroom, to convict Dassey, despite using evidence in Avery's trial that Avery had shot her somewhere else. The two stories are completely incompatible, but they convicted them both anyway.
I am not sure that Avery is 100% innocent. I am convinced Dassey is innocent. But I am also convinced that the Police skewed the investigation to get the result they wanted. Thus the 'investigative bias' completely undermines the convictions in my view.
How do you know the early media coverage was appalling? Source please!
We watched footage of it on the Making a murderer show.
As for the above.
The show did address the evidence found at the pit near Avery's trailer. It also found evidence that she had been burned somewhere else and they had testimony to show that 'someone' moved some of her burnt remains. This wasn't disputed by either side. What was disputed was where the burning took place. An expert testified that normally after the burning of a body, if the remains are moved, the majority end up in the new position, while small fragments remain at the original. The police argued the opposite, oddly (i.e. that whoever moved the remains only wanted to move a tiny part of them).
The DNA evidence was blood. The defence proved that someone had illegally taken some of Avery's blood from a police lab. They even showed the hole the needle had made in the sample that was being held. Who would steal DNA from a police lab and why?
Quote from: stew on November 30, 2016, 01:25:45 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 30, 2016, 11:35:31 AM
Quote from: stew on November 24, 2016, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 11:50:14 PM
The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.
I know she recanted Muppet!
That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.
Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.
Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.
No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!
You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.
I have not seen the documentary I have no opinions on guilt or innocence, I just observed what you wrote what you believed to be solid evidence that damned Dassey,
What you believed was hearsay, later recanted, if what you wrote here was a mistake, then apologies.
"Bassey told his neice Kayla he helped dispose of the body and that uncle Avery did the deed, he said he was pressured into it and that he was afraid for his own life, all of this was told to a social worker and got passed on to the police.
Since he told her within hours of the murder I and many people that live in the area believe the early version of events., what he told the police was a load of balls.
The evidence was there to convict him obviously as he stands convicted.
I believe he is guilty of helping Avery destroy the remains, I think he did it under duress and I think he should be freed based on the fact that the police screwed him over, well that and the fact he did not kill her, when you add in a 70 IQ the man needs let out and compensated by MPD"
Quote from: stew on November 30, 2016, 01:25:45 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 30, 2016, 11:35:31 AM
Quote from: stew on November 24, 2016, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 11:50:14 PM
The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.
I know she recanted Muppet!
That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.
Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.
Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.
No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!
You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.
Unless you sat in the jury box or viewed the whole thing live in the courtroom then you know as much about this case as the rest of us. Local papers/ TV/ online are about as much good as the documentary was in forming an opinion on this case.
Quote from: muppet on November 30, 2016, 02:51:27 PM
Quote from: stew on November 30, 2016, 02:01:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 30, 2016, 01:54:10 PM
Quote from: stew on November 30, 2016, 01:25:45 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 30, 2016, 11:35:31 AM
Quote from: stew on November 24, 2016, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 11:50:14 PM
The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.
I know she recanted Muppet!
That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.
Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.
Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.
No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!
You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.
The early TV and media coverage was appalling. They were simply a vehicle for the local police to publicly blame Avery. In fairness to them, they did start to turn their attention towards the investigation at the end.
But the most shocking part was the behaviour of Lenk and the local PD. Lenk searched Avery's trailer 5 times and his bedroom in particular 3 times, before he personally found the key to Halbach's car. Lenk shouldn't even have been there. Manitowoc County PD had claimed they had recused themselves due to their previous error in assuming he was guilty and jailing him for 18 years. And yet Lenk was all over the case.
Lenk lied about the timing of his arrival at the Avery property after the crime was reported. Then there was the radio call asking if they had arrested Avery yet, long before anyone knew any details of the crime.
They used Dassey's 'confession' claiming that they (Avery & Dassey) had stabbed her to death in the bedroom, to convict Dassey, despite using evidence in Avery's trial that Avery had shot her somewhere else. The two stories are completely incompatible, but they convicted them both anyway.
I am not sure that Avery is 100% innocent. I am convinced Dassey is innocent. But I am also convinced that the Police skewed the investigation to get the result they wanted. Thus the 'investigative bias' completely undermines the convictions in my view.
How do you know the early media coverage was appalling? Source please!
We watched footage of it on the Making a murderer show.
As for the above.
The show did address the evidence found at the pit near Avery's trailer. It also found evidence that she had been burned somewhere else and they had testimony to show that 'someone' moved some of her burnt remains. This wasn't disputed by either side. What was disputed was where the burning took place. An expert testified that normally after the burning of a body, if the remains are moved, the majority end up in the new position, while small fragments remain at the original. The police argued the opposite, oddly (i.e. that whoever moved the remains only wanted to move a tiny part of them).
The DNA evidence was blood. The defence proved that someone had illegally taken some of Avery's blood from a police lab. They even showed the hole the needle had made in the sample that was being held. Who would steal DNA from a police lab and why?
So everything you know Muppet is from the tainted documentary, any chance they fed you the snippets that would get you to think the coverage was biased?
The coverage was fine, a lot of people initially were suspicious of the motives of the cops at the time, me included, his behaviour, actions, words, DNA etc convinced many people, especially those in Manitowoc, Two Rivers, Chilton, New Holstein and Green Bay.
It amazes there are so many people out there that think this animal is innocent, knock my knowledge on the subject matter even though I was there and lived through the thing and all any one of you have to go on is that fecking biase documentary!
Do yourselves a favour, youtube the reporting at the time of the trial, WBAY channel two and Fox 11 are the top two stations that covered the trial, check them out, educate yourselves and then give your opinion!
Stew, instead of ranting, how about you argue the evidence?
Quote from: muppet on November 30, 2016, 11:39:09 PM
Stew, instead of ranting, how about you argue the evidence?
I am not ranting Muppet, I just wrote earlier on today why I think,he is guilty and why bother trying to talk to anyone on here about this when they are top lazy to research the frigging case, all you lot do is suck on the teat of two biased movie makers and voila, you are all subject matter experts and claim I know little about the case, that is downright arrogant and I cannot be arsed anymore, it is too frustrating because the sheep watched a show and know the facts! :-[ :-[ :-[
Quote from: stew on November 30, 2016, 11:27:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 30, 2016, 02:51:27 PM
Quote from: stew on November 30, 2016, 02:01:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 30, 2016, 01:54:10 PM
Quote from: stew on November 30, 2016, 01:25:45 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 30, 2016, 11:35:31 AM
Quote from: stew on November 24, 2016, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on November 23, 2016, 11:50:14 PM
The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.
I know she recanted Muppet!
That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.
Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.
Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.
No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!
You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.
The early TV and media coverage was appalling. They were simply a vehicle for the local police to publicly blame Avery. In fairness to them, they did start to turn their attention towards the investigation at the end.
But the most shocking part was the behaviour of Lenk and the local PD. Lenk searched Avery's trailer 5 times and his bedroom in particular 3 times, before he personally found the key to Halbach's car. Lenk shouldn't even have been there. Manitowoc County PD had claimed they had recused themselves due to their previous error in assuming he was guilty and jailing him for 18 years. And yet Lenk was all over the case.
Lenk lied about the timing of his arrival at the Avery property after the crime was reported. Then there was the radio call asking if they had arrested Avery yet, long before anyone knew any details of the crime.
They used Dassey's 'confession' claiming that they (Avery & Dassey) had stabbed her to death in the bedroom, to convict Dassey, despite using evidence in Avery's trial that Avery had shot her somewhere else. The two stories are completely incompatible, but they convicted them both anyway.
I am not sure that Avery is 100% innocent. I am convinced Dassey is innocent. But I am also convinced that the Police skewed the investigation to get the result they wanted. Thus the 'investigative bias' completely undermines the convictions in my view.
How do you know the early media coverage was appalling? Source please!
We watched footage of it on the Making a murderer show.
As for the above.
The show did address the evidence found at the pit near Avery's trailer. It also found evidence that she had been burned somewhere else and they had testimony to show that 'someone' moved some of her burnt remains. This wasn't disputed by either side. What was disputed was where the burning took place. An expert testified that normally after the burning of a body, if the remains are moved, the majority end up in the new position, while small fragments remain at the original. The police argued the opposite, oddly (i.e. that whoever moved the remains only wanted to move a tiny part of them).
The DNA evidence was blood. The defence proved that someone had illegally taken some of Avery's blood from a police lab. They even showed the hole the needle had made in the sample that was being held. Who would steal DNA from a police lab and why?
So everything you know Muppet is from the tainted documentary, any chance they fed you the snippets that would get you to think the coverage was biased?
The coverage was fine, a lot of people initially were suspicious of the motives of the cops at the time, me included, his behaviour, actions, words, DNA etc convinced many people, especially those in Manitowoc, Two Rivers, Chilton, New Holstein and Green Bay.
It amazes there are so many people out there that think this animal is innocent, knock my knowledge on the subject matter even though I was there and lived through the thing and all any one of you have to go on is that fecking biase documentary!
Do yourselves a favour, youtube the reporting at the time of the trial, WBAY channel two and Fox 11 are the top two stations that covered the trial, check them out, educate yourselves and then give your opinion!
Stew you argued was that you believed the evidence of his niece. Evidence which was recanted and unusable in any reasonable court of law.
You then got annoyed when I pointed out that it was withdrawn, but then you said that you still believed it anyway.
How about you point to some of the evidence. Reading the thread, you don't seem to know that much about the trial at all. But you know he was guilty. On what grounds?
Quote from: muppet on December 01, 2016, 12:05:57 AM
Stew you argued was that you believed the evidence of his niece. Evidence which was recanted and unusable in any reasonable court of law.
You then got annoyed when I pointed out that it was withdrawn, but then you said that you still believed it anyway.
How about you point to some of the evidence. Reading the thread, you don't seem to know that much about the trial at all. But you know he was guilty. On what grounds?
I have given you my reasons muppet, if you cannot comprehend that is on you, I believe Kayla was coerced into retracting her statement and I will always, always know more than any one of you lazy hacks about this particular subject matter, how arrogant are you and your ilk, that you can do nothing but watch a 10 part mini series and decide you know more than those who were actually there at the time, that lived though the biggest trial in Wisconsin for decades if not ever!
This is not the first thread you have comprehension issues on, wont be the last, I have no respect for your opinion on this matter because your opinion is based on the whims of money driven hacks in whose best interests lie in casting doubt, same goes for everyone else who bases their opinion on that f**king slanted documentary!
Quote from: stew on December 01, 2016, 12:31:22 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 01, 2016, 12:05:57 AM
Stew you argued was that you believed the evidence of his niece. Evidence which was recanted and unusable in any reasonable court of law.
You then got annoyed when I pointed out that it was withdrawn, but then you said that you still believed it anyway.
How about you point to some of the evidence. Reading the thread, you don't seem to know that much about the trial at all. But you know he was guilty. On what grounds?
I have given you my reasons muppet, if you cannot comprehend that is on you, I believe Kayla was coerced into retracting her statement and I will always, always know more than any one of you lazy hacks about this particular subject matter, how arrogant are you and your ilk, that you can do nothing but watch a 10 part mini series and decide you know more than those who were actually there at the time, that lived though the biggest trial in Wisconsin for decades if not ever!
This is not the first thread you have comprehension issues on, wont be the last, I have no respect for your opinion on this matter because your opinion is based on the whims of money driven hacks in whose best interests lie in casting doubt, same goes for everyone else who bases their opinion on that f**king slanted documentary!
Stew, do you understand that the jury could not convict him based on the evidence that wasn't given?
The rest of your post is just a rant about the media, but not the media that you believe of course.
Quote from: muppet on December 01, 2016, 12:34:00 AM
Quote from: stew on December 01, 2016, 12:31:22 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 01, 2016, 12:05:57 AM
Stew you argued was that you believed the evidence of his niece. Evidence which was recanted and unusable in any reasonable court of law.
You then got annoyed when I pointed out that it was withdrawn, but then you said that you still believed it anyway.
How about you point to some of the evidence. Reading the thread, you don't seem to know that much about the trial at all. But you know he was guilty. On what grounds?
I have given you my reasons muppet, if you cannot comprehend that is on you, I believe Kayla was coerced into retracting her statement and I will always, always know more than any one of you lazy hacks about this particular subject matter, how arrogant are you and your ilk, that you can do nothing but watch a 10 part mini series and decide you know more than those who were actually there at the time, that lived though the biggest trial in Wisconsin for decades if not ever!
This is not the first thread you have comprehension issues on, wont be the last, I have no respect for your opinion on this matter because your opinion is based on the whims of money driven hacks in whose best interests lie in casting doubt, same goes for everyone else who bases their opinion on that f**king slanted documentary!
Stew, do you understand that the jury could not convict him based on the evidence that wasn't given?
The rest of your post is just a rant about the media, but not the media that you believe of course.
He WAS convicted Muppet, he is doing time as we speak.
Kayla either lied to get her uncle off or lied initially, which one do you think is more likely?
I am not ranting, I gave you most of my reasons for coming to the conclusion the man was guilty, I gave all of you documentary experts an opportunity to educate yourselves further, you chose not to and I am done arguing with ignorant people that are too lazy to educate themselves on the subject matter at hand, I will leave you experts to your own devices, That way everyone can have the same opinion because they were indoctrinated by the same propaganda!
Muppet I have a bridge I think you might be interested in buying! ::)
"He WAS convicted Muppet, he is doing time as we speak."
He was not convicted on Kayla's evidence. She didn't give any in court and thus it couldn't be used. Do you understand this or not?
After that, each of your posts degenerates into a long insult about your superior knowledge and education on the subject. Let's see some of this superior knowledge. Tell us something we don't know about the case.
Quote from: muppet on December 01, 2016, 10:07:41 AM
"He WAS convicted Muppet, he is doing time as we speak."
He was not convicted on Kayla's evidence. She didn't give any in court and thus it couldn't be used. Do you understand this or not?
After that, each of your posts degenerates into a long insult about your superior knowledge and education on the subject. Let's see some of this superior knowledge. Tell us something we don't know about the case.
Of course I know he was not convicted on her evidence and still he is doing time.
For fucks sake I was there Muppet, wise up, you know nothing more than what the documentary told you happened,if course I know more than you, I was in the city as it unfolded, I have hundreds of hours reading about the case, watching the reporting on the case and there would be something wrong if I didn't know more than the rest of you since all you got is the stupid documentary.
I already told you some things you did know, you know, pertinent details the directors left out.
I gave you the names of a couple of media outlets you could research on the case, you were too lazy to check them out, I took the time to watch that documentary, I fought it but I did because at least I can say that after living with this trial day after day for years that I thought the programme had a definite bias, not one thing do you know that did not come from that shit show you get your information from.
I am sick of your ignorance here Muppet, later!
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder96/61649096.jpg)
Quote from: screenexile on December 01, 2016, 04:33:00 PM
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder96/61649096.jpg)
I see what you did there, pardon the pun, its gas duuude, gas I tell ya! :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
Quote from: stew on December 01, 2016, 04:03:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 01, 2016, 10:07:41 AM
"He WAS convicted Muppet, he is doing time as we speak."
He was not convicted on Kayla's evidence. She didn't give any in court and thus it couldn't be used. Do you understand this or not?
After that, each of your posts degenerates into a long insult about your superior knowledge and education on the subject. Let's see some of this superior knowledge. Tell us something we don't know about the case.
Of course I know he was not convicted on her evidence and still he is doing time.
For f**ks sake I was there Muppet, wise up, you know nothing more than what the documentary told you happened,if course I know more than you, I was in the city as it unfolded, I have hundreds of hours reading about the case, watching the reporting on the case and there would be something wrong if I didn't know more than the rest of you since all you got is the stupid documentary.
I already told you some things you did know, you know, pertinent details the directors left out.
I gave you the names of a couple of media outlets you could research on the case, you were too lazy to check them out, I took the time to watch that documentary, I fought it but I did because at least I can say that after living with this trial day after day for years that I thought the programme had a definite bias, not one thing do you know that did not come from that shit show you get your information from.
I am sick of your ignorance here Muppet, later!
You are calling me arrogant. ;D ;D ;D
Your problem isn't that I am claiming to know everything, because I am not. Your problem is that I claim to know
anything about it, when clearly we should just accept it when you pronounce them both guilty.
Stew if you have read so much about it, why can't you debate any of it in a civilised manner? Why can't you make a solid argument that any neutral here would find persuasive?
And why are you always ranting and shouting abuse?
You ASSUME that we have only seen the documentary. Most people will dig deeper when they find a subject or topic interesting.
Quote from: muppet on December 01, 2016, 10:14:23 PM
Quote from: stew on December 01, 2016, 04:03:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 01, 2016, 10:07:41 AM
"He WAS convicted Muppet, he is doing time as we speak."
He was not convicted on Kayla's evidence. She didn't give any in court and thus it couldn't be used. Do you understand this or not?
After that, each of your posts degenerates into a long insult about your superior knowledge and education on the subject. Let's see some of this superior knowledge. Tell us something we don't know about the case.
Of course I know he was not convicted on her evidence and still he is doing time.
For f**ks sake I was there Muppet, wise up, you know nothing more than what the documentary told you happened,if course I know more than you, I was in the city as it unfolded, I have hundreds of hours reading about the case, watching the reporting on the case and there would be something wrong if I didn't know more than the rest of you since all you got is the stupid documentary.
I already told you some things you did know, you know, pertinent details the directors left out.
I gave you the names of a couple of media outlets you could research on the case, you were too lazy to check them out, I took the time to watch that documentary, I fought it but I did because at least I can say that after living with this trial day after day for years that I thought the programme had a definite bias, not one thing do you know that did not come from that shit show you get your information from.
I am sick of your ignorance here Muppet, later!
You are calling me arrogant. ;D ;D ;D
Your problem isn't that I am claiming to know everything, because I am not. Your problem is that I claim to know anything about it, when clearly we should just accept it when you pronounce them both guilty.
Stew if you have read so much about it, why can't you debate any of it in a civilised manner? Why can't you make a solid argument that any neutral here would find persuasive?
And why are you always ranting and shouting abuse?
You ASSUME that we have only seen the documentary. Most people will dig deeper when they find a subject or topic interesting.
I am not ranting and raving, you think I am, not once have you ever cited any information that did not come from that show?
It does not matter you lot have beaten me down, Avery is innocent, give him millions and let him roam free, maybe he will not, not kill again.
Now how about that bridge?
Quote from: stew on December 02, 2016, 09:20:41 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 01, 2016, 10:14:23 PM
Quote from: stew on December 01, 2016, 04:03:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 01, 2016, 10:07:41 AM
"He WAS convicted Muppet, he is doing time as we speak."
He was not convicted on Kayla's evidence. She didn't give any in court and thus it couldn't be used. Do you understand this or not?
After that, each of your posts degenerates into a long insult about your superior knowledge and education on the subject. Let's see some of this superior knowledge. Tell us something we don't know about the case.
Of course I know he was not convicted on her evidence and still he is doing time.
For f**ks sake I was there Muppet, wise up, you know nothing more than what the documentary told you happened,if course I know more than you, I was in the city as it unfolded, I have hundreds of hours reading about the case, watching the reporting on the case and there would be something wrong if I didn't know more than the rest of you since all you got is the stupid documentary.
I already told you some things you did know, you know, pertinent details the directors left out.
I gave you the names of a couple of media outlets you could research on the case, you were too lazy to check them out, I took the time to watch that documentary, I fought it but I did because at least I can say that after living with this trial day after day for years that I thought the programme had a definite bias, not one thing do you know that did not come from that shit show you get your information from.
I am sick of your ignorance here Muppet, later!
You are calling me arrogant. ;D ;D ;D
Your problem isn't that I am claiming to know everything, because I am not. Your problem is that I claim to know anything about it, when clearly we should just accept it when you pronounce them both guilty.
Stew if you have read so much about it, why can't you debate any of it in a civilised manner? Why can't you make a solid argument that any neutral here would find persuasive?
And why are you always ranting and shouting abuse?
You ASSUME that we have only seen the documentary. Most people will dig deeper when they find a subject or topic interesting.
I am not ranting and raving, you think I am, not once have you ever cited any information that did not come from that show?
It does not matter you lot have beaten me down, Avery is innocent, give him millions and let him roam free, maybe he will not, not kill again.
Now how about that bridge?
'That show' cited the key evidence. There was other evidence not included in the show, such as Avery's previous with Halbach and his mobile phone contact with her. Anyone can look this up online as there are countless websites and articles discussing the matter.
As I have said numerous times, I believe Dassey is innocent, but I am not so sure about Avery. This is based on the arguments produced by Avery's defence team. The Manitowoc Sheriff's Office are obviously in it up to their necks, including, planting evidence and influencing the jury. Not to mention seeking to arrest Avery before they even knew anything.
Why has there been no investigation into the alleged theft of Avery's blood from the vial? Why did the police continue to hold the blood, for evidence, of a man who had been cleared of any wrongdoing? The prosecution claimed Avery's blood came from a finger wound, but that there were no fingerprints (harder to steal from a lab).
Like I said above I am not sure about Avery, but I am absolutely certain the Manitowoc officials carried out a truly shocking investigation in terms of supposedly recusing themselves, standard of searches and treatment of evidence, and not bothering to consider any possibility other than Steven Avery's guilt, again.
The best way to research this is is the way I,laid out for you all.
It is time the Manitowoc police dept was investigated by partial detectives from either Illinois, Minneasota or Michigan, a2nd I,mean from top to bottom.
If they have nothing to,hide hey should welcome it, if they do they should get ready for so.e serious jail time.
Quote from: stew on December 06, 2016, 09:42:12 AM
The best way to research this is is the way I,laid out for you all.
It is time the Manitowoc police dept was investigated by partial detectives from either Illinois, Minneasota or Michigan, a2nd I,mean from top to bottom.
If they have nothing to,hide hey should welcome it, if they do they should get ready for so.e serious jail time.
I completely agree.
Not once on here has anyone offered anything other than something from that damn tv show, I might be wrong but Muppet, can you tell me the extent of your knowledge of this case outside if the documentary, I am all ears buddy, )
Quote from: stew on December 23, 2016, 12:16:13 AM
Not once on here has anyone offered anything other than something from that damn tv show, I might be wrong but Muppet, can you tell me the extent of your knowledge of this case outside if the documentary, I am all ears buddy, )
I watched another doc in which discredited Avery but at same time said that the police force was completely corrupt in regards to this case! So whether Avery is guilty or not (which he may be) they totally went the wrong way about getting a conviction
Quote from: hardstation on December 23, 2016, 12:21:24 AM
To be fair, stew, you don't know shit about this.
To be fair station you are an ignoramus that should not have a big boy opinion on something you learned through indoctrination, I lived it. I was there, you were nowhere to be seen and got your knowledge from a f**king agenda driven documentary, so f**k up you bomb scare!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 23, 2016, 12:26:26 AM
Quote from: stew on December 23, 2016, 12:16:13 AM
Not once on here has anyone offered anything other than something from that damn tv show, I might be wrong but Muppet, can you tell me the extent of your knowledge of this case outside if the documentary, I am all ears buddy, )
I watched another doc in which discredited Avery but at same time said that the police force was completely corrupt in regards to this case! So whether Avery is guilty or not (which he may be) they totally went the wrong way about getting a conviction
Great, so we now have an alternative documentary to absorb accurate info from, at least you took the time to do something other than take making of a murderer as gospel at those tits hardstation and Muppet did.
Read the papers of the time from the state, watch the YouTube videos from the state, I have laid it out on this thread, you see dickheads like hardstation are not interested in anything other than their beloved evidence in making of a murderer, they are ignorant and no nothing outside the case of it is not said/ inferred on their beloved documentary, which is white by the way.
Stew, a few of us mentioned months ago that the prosecutor was dismissed for sexual harassment. That wasn't on the show. How did we know this when we didn't 'live it'?
Then there was the evidence I mentioned that wasn't mentioned on the show. For example, Avery not giving his real name to Halbach when he set her up to photo his vehicles. How would I know this when all I watched was the show? How would we know that he is now pointing the blame for the murder at others in his family, which most of us would have thought was where the police should have looked - i.e. not just Avery but all of the wider adult group in his family.
But how would we know this. Any ideas?
How would we know Dassey, was freed, then not freed, then freed again?
Quote from: stew on December 23, 2016, 12:35:43 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 23, 2016, 12:26:26 AM
Quote from: stew on December 23, 2016, 12:16:13 AM
Not once on here has anyone offered anything other than something from that damn tv show, I might be wrong but Muppet, can you tell me the extent of your knowledge of this case outside if the documentary, I am all ears buddy, )
I watched another doc in which discredited Avery but at same time said that the police force was completely corrupt in regards to this case! So whether Avery is guilty or not (which he may be) they totally went the wrong way about getting a conviction
Great, so we now have an alternative documentary to absorb accurate info from, at least you took the time to do something other than take making of a murderer as gospel at those tits hardstation and Muppet did.
Read the papers of the time from the state, watch the YouTube videos from the state, I have laid it out on this thread, you see d**kheads like hardstation are not interested in anything other than their beloved evidence in making of a murderer, they are ignorant and no nothing outside the case of it is not said/ inferred on their beloved documentary, which is white by the way.
"If you dont read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're misinformed" Mark Twain :P
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-23/making-a-murderer-subject's-confession-legal-prosecutors-say/8144628 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-23/making-a-murderer-subject's-confession-legal-prosecutors-say/8144628)
Quote from: lurganblue on December 23, 2016, 10:04:54 AM
Quote from: stew on December 23, 2016, 12:35:43 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 23, 2016, 12:26:26 AM
Quote from: stew on December 23, 2016, 12:16:13 AM
Not once on here has anyone offered anything other than something from that damn tv show, I might be wrong but Muppet, can you tell me the extent of your knowledge of this case outside if the documentary, I am all ears buddy, )
I watched another doc in which discredited Avery but at same time said that the police force was completely corrupt in regards to this case! So whether Avery is guilty or not (which he may be) they totally went the wrong way about getting a conviction
Great, so we now have an alternative documentary to absorb accurate info from, at least you took the time to do something other than take making of a murderer as gospel at those tits hardstation and Muppet did.
Read the papers of the time from the state, watch the YouTube videos from the state, I have laid it out on this thread, you see d**kheads like hardstation are not interested in anything other than their beloved evidence in making of a murderer, they are ignorant and no nothing outside the case of it is not said/ inferred on their beloved documentary, which is white by the way.
"If you dont read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're misinformed" Mark Twain :P
Thanks for that nugget, watch documentaries and be all knowing, all seeing.
Anyone watched The Keepers? If anything it's an even more incredible and damning story of systematic corruption.
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2017, 05:52:10 PM
Anyone watched The Keepers? If anything it's an even more incredible and damning story of systematic corruption.
Is it about David Clarke and Rob Hennelly?
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 26, 2017, 09:56:03 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2017, 05:52:10 PM
Anyone watched The Keepers? If anything it's an even more incredible and damning story of systematic corruption.
Is it about David Clarke and Rob Hennelly?
;D
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2017, 05:52:10 PM
Anyone watched The Keepers? If anything it's an even more incredible and damning story of systematic corruption.
Did you watch it all in one go or spread out the episodes Sy??
Quote from: Crete Boom on May 26, 2017, 10:17:53 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2017, 05:52:10 PM
Anyone watched The Keepers? If anything it's an even more incredible and damning story of systematic corruption.
Did you watch it all in one go or spread out the episodes Sy??
I think I watched it over two or three nights l, I heard people who weren't watching back to back had some trouble keeping up with all the different strands.
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2017, 10:21:12 PM
Quote from: Crete Boom on May 26, 2017, 10:17:53 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2017, 05:52:10 PM
Anyone watched The Keepers? If anything it's an even more incredible and damning story of systematic corruption.
Did you watch it all in one go or spread out the episodes Sy??
I think I watched it over two or three nights l, I heard people who weren't watching back to back had some trouble keeping up with all the different strands.
I did similar to yourself cause one of my mates warned me he splurged and it was pretty depressing to take in one go!!
f**k me Maskell was one devious, clinical,evil operator!! That idiot DA , she was like they plucked her straight out of an episode of the wire!!!
Quote from: Crete Boom on May 26, 2017, 10:25:47 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2017, 10:21:12 PM
Quote from: Crete Boom on May 26, 2017, 10:17:53 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2017, 05:52:10 PM
Anyone watched The Keepers? If anything it's an even more incredible and damning story of systematic corruption.
Did you watch it all in one go or spread out the episodes Sy??
I think I watched it over two or three nights l, I heard people who weren't watching back to back had some trouble keeping up with all the different strands.
I did similar to yourself cause one of my mates warned me he splurged and it was pretty depressing to take in one go!!
f**k me Maskell was one devious, clinical,evil operator!! That idiot DA , she was like they plucked her straight out of an episode of the wire!!!
What blew my mind was how deep and current the corruption it. I remember watching Who Took Johnny Gosch last year and it was referencing the Franklin child sex ring and it sounded almost insane, but this in some ways is worse as it involves corruption at state, federal and institutional levels in a massive east coast city. It really makes you wonder about what stories are unknown here because the church had if anything even more control and power over state entities here than in Baltimore.
Joyce Malecki's murder is one of the most tragic aspects of the whole case. It seems like no one has bothered to properly investigate her death at all.
Season 2 will return on October 19th
Has anyone been watching season 2 - have watched 5 episodes of the 10 so far - Zellner is very good. The Dassey interviews are still shocking to watch. How he was allowed in that interview room by himself probably haunts his mum a lot.
Haven't started season 2 yet but I am convinced Avery is guilty
Just finished season 2. Some of the evidence that was withheld was mad. I still can't decide about Avery but Dassey should never of spent one day in jail never mind the years he has been there.
Jaysus - that Ken Kratz is an awful aul ****
Agree on Kratz. I think Avery lawyer is due to lodge all her appeal evidence on 20th December so will be interesting to see how that goes. Dassey case the Supreme court refused to hear so I think his only chance of getting out could rely on Avery getting out.
I see also there is a show coming out next year convicting a murderer from the prosecution point of view. Will be interesting to watch it with an open mind and see if things appear different. It all most still be terrible for the Halbach family though.
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on October 31, 2018, 08:00:26 PM
Jaysus - that Ken Kratz is an awful aul ****
Isn't he just. He is a sleazebag who loves the camera.
I just don't know what to think about it all - Dassey sure doean't seem in any way guilty. And Avery is so dense that I can't believe he had the sense or ability to carry out the crime but moreso continue with his story for so long. He believed that ex-fiancée would actually marry him??
Quote from: Rois on October 31, 2018, 08:52:24 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on October 31, 2018, 08:00:26 PM
Jaysus - that Ken Kratz is an awful aul ****
Isn't he just. He is a sleazebag who loves the camera.
I just don't know what to think about it all - Dassey sure doean't seem in any way guilty. And Avery is so dense that I can't believe he had the sense or ability to carry out the crime but moreso continue with his story for so long. He believed that ex-fiancée would actually marry him??
Animal cunning, you see it the world over. Below is a good article -
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/making-a-murderer-netflix-picks-up-the-story-of-steven-avery-v8vt76xh3
Hard to tell. Lots of doubt raised in season 2 again regarding Averys guilt, plus you still feel bad for Dassey at times then again you cant ignore all the stuff he said, can you? I understand they portray him as young and dumb, but surely it takes a mulitude of techniques to get answers out of a suspect; they are not simply going to get anywhere ever by simply asking someone if they did it and leave it at that once an alleged suspect obviously denies an allegation.
The second series is very different, interesting but not gripping.
The Dassey half basically saw the state prove that he wasnt coerced and no law broken. He is in for the duration.
Avery was much more nuanced. Although we saw one side the forensics seemed open and shut. Mad they cant get it revisited, really looks like the two lawyers ballsed up masdively in the original trial. But they dont have her budget.
The revelations about Dasseys brother were scary. But are we 100% they couldnt be Brendans searches?
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on October 31, 2018, 11:05:55 PM
The second series is very different, interesting but not gripping.
The Dassey half basically saw the state prove that he wasnt coerced and no law broken. He is in for the duration.
Avery was much more nuanced. Although we saw one side the forensics seemed open and shut. Mad they cant get it revisited, really looks like the two lawyers ballsed up masdively in the original trial. But they dont have her budget.
The revelations about Dasseys brother were scary. But are we 100% they couldnt be Brendans searches?
Was thinking the same regarding the user of the computer - Zellner is adamant that it was Bobby who performed the searches doesnt say how.
I haven't made my mind up on Avery yet, I'd have to go back over the stuff I read online that the doc didn't put on. My impression after the first season was Avery was guilty and the cops doctored the scene to try and make the case beyond doubt, ultimately ballsing it all up and convoluting the whole thing.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 31, 2018, 11:21:53 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on October 31, 2018, 11:05:55 PM
The second series is very different, interesting but not gripping.
The Dassey half basically saw the state prove that he wasnt coerced and no law broken. He is in for the duration.
Avery was much more nuanced. Although we saw one side the forensics seemed open and shut. Mad they cant get it revisited, really looks like the two lawyers ballsed up masdively in the original trial. But they dont have her budget.
The revelations about Dasseys brother were scary. But are we 100% they couldnt be Brendans searches?
Was thinking the same regarding the user of the computer - Zellner is adamant that it was Bobby who performed the searches doesnt say how.
I read an article with zellner and it had the following:
"These searches have been isolated to times when only Bobby Dassey was home. Although there was only one user account on the Dassey computer, the relevant searches occurred during times when Bobby Dassey was alone in the house. While Bobby worked nights and was home during the day on weekdays, all of his family members either attended high school or worked the day shift."
Finished it and still none the wiser with their guilt...
Too many f**k ups and inconsistencies from both sides to get an overall opinion.. the level of alleged collusion by the cops looks to be unreal in real time to commit, as for Dassey, whether he was coerced by police or Avery he's in big trouble unless Avery gets out!
Poor people have no chance in the states if they get on the wrong side of the police in terms of getting shafted, once convicted you'll not get out even if someone else admits guilt!
Watched innocent man on Netflix, John Grisham is in it. Frightening stuff than was allowed to go as investigators go