There's been lots of criticism of the existing structures for the past 10 years or so. Have any new options surfaced yet from the counties?
Not sure but there's been plenty of threads about it on here.
Jim McGuiness's has got the perfect answer in the last weeks Irish Times .... a solution that deals with all the issues in a fair and balanced structure
New one today from the GPA and it sounds great tbh. If the players are in favour and most supporters want some kind of change , then why should it not be given a shot?
Quote from: larryin89 on July 09, 2015, 12:11:46 PM
New one today from the GPA and it sounds great tbh. If the players are in favour and most supporters want some kind of change , then why should it not be given a shot?
What are the GPA suggesting?
Here it is. Haven't read it myself yet.
http://www.the42.ie/gpa-all-ireland-football-2206913-Jul2015/
Initial problems:
1. Probable dead rubber games at the last stage.
2. Provincials devalued as the top teams are concerned with peaking for the AI series.
Other than that it seems reasonable. Only initial views though.
Also, Dublin will hammer someone in Division 4 so that issue will remain.
They'll also hammer someone in the Leinster Championship.
In fact won't about six teams get hammered, finish bottom and have no chance of winning anything?
So the 8 bottom seeds get 3 batins and have nothing to play for.
Why not have 3 "streams" with the winners of the weak streams getting into the knock out stages along with 8 qualifiers from the top "stream"
It's like we are looking for the perfect utopia, such things don't exist in life , politics or sport. Next thing we will want handicaps for some counties .
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 09, 2015, 12:58:48 PM
Initial problems:
1. Probable dead rubber games at the last stage.
2. Provincials devalued as the top teams are concerned with peaking for the AI series.
Other than that it seems reasonable. Only initial views though.
Also, Dublin will hammer someone in Division 4 so that issue will remain.
They'll also hammer someone in the Leinster Championship.
In fact won't about six teams get hammered, finish bottom and have no chance of winning anything?
I see a lot of problems with that proposal tbh.
The Provincial Championships effectively replace the O'Byrne/McKenna/FBD/McGrath Cups, only they are played off after the League. I don't see the point of this at all. They should incorporate the Provincial finals into the groups, which would retain the thrill of the local rivalries and provincial finals, and free up time for club games by scrapping the other cups.
'with seedings to be determined from final NFL position'. -
I am sure this is to force teams to take the NFL seriously, which is fair enough, but it will REDUCE competitive games in the early stages by keeping top teams apart.'with the bottom-ranked side having home advantage in their game against the top seed'. -
Is this always to be the case. i.e. does the lower (rather than bottom) ranked team always have home advantage? In this case it would be advantageous for Mayo to finish just below Galway or Roscommon, if they are in the same NFL division, to gain home advantage if they meet in the Championship. Indeed, finishing just above relegation would be the best position to finish in the League rounds.Personally I think thewobbler's and Jimmy's watching matches proposals were far better. But the O'Rourke/Martin Carney group from about 14 years ago was the best.
I agree with you muppet on the provincials just replacing the meaningless o Byrne , McKenna , McGrath and Roscommon cup .
What I don't agree with is the sentiment that you can avoid having a team finishing bottom / receiving a hammering , sure as hell as there's the best team there has to be the worst team .Wimbledon starts off with I imagine players that are seeded as low as 200 and nearly always end up with the top four in semis , same as any sport. I just don't get that point and these are the same boyos who are against a 2/3 tier system too. You just can't win.
What would be wrong with;
Run the provincials as a separate competition (as per GPA proposals)
Then 4 groups of 8 in a straight knockout.
It might throw up some big games early on or some complete mismatches but at least there will be a buzz about it due to a straight knockout. Can you imagine Cork & Kerry meeting in the first round with no safety net? Last weeks game would pale in comparison.
I'm not a fan of the GPA proposal, I want to see more games between the stronger teams with more games like Kerry & Cork last week.
The league is a huge issue and will continue to be, A Division 1 side is guaranteed 7 tough games which is ideal preparation for the championship whilst every other county not in Div 1 will final it near on impossible to make an impact in the championship. Split the league up, take 2 counties from each division to create a new division. Weaker teams will benefit from tougher games whilst stronger counties level will perhaps drop given their lack of competitive action which will lead to weaker counties closing the gap.
Provincial games - lack of public interest and will be equivalent of McKenna Cup games in a few years. No impact on All-Ireland.
Group games - only one team doesn't enter knock out, in effect they will be dead rubbers like the early rounds of the provincils but closer to early rounds of qualifiers. Its not knockout and its not league, will have little real bearing till the last 16. Big teams still avoid each other. Very little at stake.
Last 16 - might generate a bit more interest.
Last 8 onwards - as it is now. This is really only where it will start.
GPA proposal: 4/10 - it shortens the season but provides better planning for club season. But overall, just more dead rubber type games and no real knockout action until later stages.
Anyone have a link to what mcguinness proposed?
Think it's in here.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-how-i-would-reinvigorate-football-championship-1.2241993
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 09, 2015, 03:50:21 PM
Think it's in here.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-how-i-would-reinvigorate-football-championship-1.2241993
That is a very good suggestion.
Certainly the best one I have heard
Jim's plans has merit, but I think the current system is vastly under-rated.
As mentioned in the McGuinness article, a key driver for all this controversy was the Dublin v Longford game (and the fact it was live on telly)
That demolition would still happen under McGuinness's plan - the only difference being Longford would go into the B competition instead f the All Ireland qualifiers.
A question to Longford fans - would you prefer to now be in the B championship with the other Division 3 and 4 teams or would you prefer to be in the current series? Absolutely haven't a hope in hell of winning Sam, but a surprise run to the All Ireland Quarter-Finals is not of the question. Would that be a bigger achievement than winning a Division 3/4 championship?
There has been some really exciting games in the championship so far, and nobody credits the system for it, but quick to moan when there's a bad game. While pretty much every Dublin fan would have liked to play Longford away, that could would have been a sell-out and worthy of live TV coverage. But to decide to televise live a game with 50,000 spare seats and less than a 1% doubt as to the outcome was the height of nonsense.
I know they were on different weekends, but if the Wexford-Down game was televised live instead of Dublin-Longford there'd be no complaints this year about the qualifier system. Tyrone v Meath and Armagh v Galway should also be good advertisements for the current system
The GPA's proposals haven't a hope in hell of passing as they would do serious damage to the provincials, which the provincial councils will not stand for in any shape - it will be interesting to see if the various provincial councils decided to fight this publicly or kill it in the committee rooms.
Quote from: Hound on July 09, 2015, 07:11:32 PM
Jim's plans has merit, but I think the current system is vastly under-rated.
As mentioned in the McGuinness article, a key driver for all this controversy was the Dublin v Longford game (and the fact it was live on telly)
That demolition would still happen under McGuinness's plan - the only difference being Longford would go into the B competition instead f the All Ireland qualifiers.
A question to Longford fans - would you prefer to now be in the B championship with the other Division 3 and 4 teams or would you prefer to be in the current series? Absolutely haven't a hope in hell of winning Sam, but a surprise run to the All Ireland Quarter-Finals is not of the question. Would that be a bigger achievement than winning a Division 3/4 championship?
There has been some really exciting games in the championship so far, and nobody credits the system for it, but quick to moan when there's a bad game. While pretty much every Dublin fan would have liked to play Longford away, that could would have been a sell-out and worthy of live TV coverage. But to decide to televise live a game with 50,000 spare seats and less than a 1% doubt as to the outcome was the height of nonsense.
I know they were on different weekends, but if the Wexford-Down game was televised live instead of Dublin-Longford there'd be no complaints this year about the qualifier system. Tyrone v Meath and Armagh v Galway should also be good advertisements for the current system
Fair enough points here. It's a bit poor that the AI football qualifiers have been pretty much ignored by TV and there have been a few cracking games and another couple with potential to come this weekend.
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 09, 2015, 07:39:59 PM
Quote from: Hound on July 09, 2015, 07:11:32 PM
Jim's plans has merit, but I think the current system is vastly under-rated.
As mentioned in the McGuinness article, a key driver for all this controversy was the Dublin v Longford game (and the fact it was live on telly)
That demolition would still happen under McGuinness's plan - the only difference being Longford would go into the B competition instead f the All Ireland qualifiers.
A question to Longford fans - would you prefer to now be in the B championship with the other Division 3 and 4 teams or would you prefer to be in the current series? Absolutely haven't a hope in hell of winning Sam, but a surprise run to the All Ireland Quarter-Finals is not of the question. Would that be a bigger achievement than winning a Division 3/4 championship?
There has been some really exciting games in the championship so far, and nobody credits the system for it, but quick to moan when there's a bad game. While pretty much every Dublin fan would have liked to play Longford away, that could would have been a sell-out and worthy of live TV coverage. But to decide to televise live a game with 50,000 spare seats and less than a 1% doubt as to the outcome was the height of nonsense.
I know they were on different weekends, but if the Wexford-Down game was televised live instead of Dublin-Longford there'd be no complaints this year about the qualifier system. Tyrone v Meath and Armagh v Galway should also be good advertisements for the current system
Fair enough points here. It's a bit poor that the AI footballer qualifiers have been pretty much ignored by TV and there have been a few cracking games and another couple with potential to come this weekend.
With the TV treatment, it's pretty much a case of the GAA telling everyone forget about these, they are unimportant - no wonder the general public isn't buying into them more when the GAA is almost doing it's best to hide them away - early morning draw on radio, fixtures taking an age to sort out, little to no TV coverage - the way the GAA are acting towards the qualifiers, you'd be forgiven for thinking that there were some people in officialdom actually doing their best to kill the qualifier concept.
Quote from: Hound on July 09, 2015, 07:11:32 PM
Jim's plans has merit, but I think the current system is vastly under-rated.
As mentioned in the McGuinness article, a key driver for all this controversy was the Dublin v Longford game (and the fact it was live on telly)
That demolition would still happen under McGuinness's plan - the only difference being Longford would go into the B competition instead f the All Ireland qualifiers.
A question to Longford fans - would you prefer to now be in the B championship with the other Division 3 and 4 teams or would you prefer to be in the current series? Absolutely haven't a hope in hell of winning Sam, but a surprise run to the All Ireland Quarter-Finals is not of the question. Would that be a bigger achievement than winning a Division 3/4 championship?
There has been some really exciting games in the championship so far, and nobody credits the system for it, but quick to moan when there's a bad game. While pretty much every Dublin fan would have liked to play Longford away, that could would have been a sell-out and worthy of live TV coverage. But to decide to televise live a game with 50,000 spare seats and less than a 1% doubt as to the outcome was the height of nonsense.
I know they were on different weekends, but if the Wexford-Down game was televised live instead of Dublin-Longford there'd be no complaints this year about the qualifier system. Tyrone v Meath and Armagh v Galway should also be good advertisements for the current system
Not answering for Longford but when was the last time a team from div 4 made the quarter finals? Lowest I can remember is Monaghan who won div 3 the year they won Ulster. Cavan were div 3 as well a couple of years ago. An intermediate competition would take a couple of years to bed in before it became attractive to win. I like the idea of it.
Call it Senior2 and let the winners into the k o stage of Senior 1.
What Div were Fermanagh in back in 04? LLimerick got to a QF as a D3 team a few years ago.
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2015, 11:49:24 PM
Call it Senior2 and let the winners into the k o stage of Senior 1.
What Div were Fermanagh in back in 04? LLimerick got to a QF as a D3 team a few years ago.
They were in the old 2B if memory serves
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 10, 2015, 12:11:55 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2015, 11:49:24 PM
Call it Senior2 and let the winners into the k o stage of Senior 1.
What Div were Fermanagh in back in 04? LLimerick got to a QF as a D3 team a few years ago.
They were in the old 2B if memory serves
Mayo were Division 3 in 1996, iirc.
What happened the Wobbler's idea ?.
GPA proposal is rubbish. Can you imagine their 'Champions League' style groups of say Kerry, Kildare, Fermanagh, Antrim playing off against each other? Half a chance of one decent game there in Kildare vs Ferm. The rest would be worse than the lowest key qualifier game under the current system with attendences to match. The soccer CL groups are rubbish for the most part with the seedings ensuring strong vs weak consistently. Would be no different here.
Quote from: orangeman on July 10, 2015, 11:56:39 AM
What happened the Wobbler's idea ?.
That idea is on file, in a filing cabinet.
Quote from: Bingo on July 09, 2015, 02:48:35 PM
Provincial games - lack of public interest and will be equivalent of McKenna Cup games in a few years. No impact on All-Ireland.
Group games - only one team doesn't enter knock out, in effect they will be dead rubbers like the early rounds of the provincils but closer to early rounds of qualifiers. Its not knockout and its not league, will have little real bearing till the last 16. Big teams still avoid each other. Very little at stake.
Last 16 - might generate a bit more interest.
Last 8 onwards - as it is now. This is really only where it will start.
GPA proposal: 4/10 - it shortens the season but provides better planning for club season. But overall, just more dead rubber type games and no real knockout action until later stages.
get rid of McKenna Cup/FBD League/O'Byrne Cup then
in most sports, it only really kicks into gear when a competition reaches the final 16 or 8 knockout phase
American Football
Baseball
Rugby - european club competition
Soccer - FA Cup, Champions League
NBA
all the previous rounds are to sort out the weaker teams from the good teams
why are people so keen to get rid of the early season competions . Its gives an out let for younger players to give a glimspe of their true worth or plaers oming back from injury.
one the league comes the squads are more or less closed .
and it all takes place at a time when feck all else is happening and several months gone since the last match (usually sept in mayos case),
ye beat a cup of cold soup in Ballinlough and it only costs a euro
Quote from: rosnarun on July 10, 2015, 03:30:16 PM
why are people so keen to get rid of the early season competions . Its gives an out let for younger players to give a glimspe of their true worth or plaers oming back from injury.
one the league comes the squads are more or less closed .
and it all takes place at a time when feck all else is happening and several months gone since the last match (usually sept in mayos case),
ye beat a cup of cold soup in Ballinlough and it only costs a euro
getting rid of the preseaosn competitions allows the league to start earlier, compressing the whole season , which is badly needed.
If the leagues takes such importance that it impacts a team's standing/seeding in the championship, then the pre-season competitions will have to be kept. There is no way that teams will go straight into such an important league competition without having played some games. If there is no pre-season comps (fbd, o'byrne cup etc.) then teams will just end up playing challenge matches, so we may as well keep the pre-season comps in that scenario.
I propose to leave the whole bloody thing alone. It's the least worst system. Sure if you were starting from scratch you wouldn't design it as it is now but we're not starting from scratch and I've no wish to see 130 years of tradition done away with by abolishing the provincial championships.
I like my provincial finals as they are, thank you.
Take a few minutes and actually read Jim McGuiness's suggestions !!!!!
He does not want to do away with the Provincial Championship
Quote from: westbound on July 10, 2015, 03:39:49 PM
If the leagues takes such importance that it impacts a team's standing/seeding in the championship, then the pre-season competitions will have to be kept. There is no way that teams will go straight into such an important league competition without having played some games. If there is no pre-season comps (fbd, o'byrne cup etc.) then teams will just end up playing challenge matches, so we may as well keep the pre-season comps in that scenario.
let them organise friendlies then. I don't see see teams in the EPL, NFL or Pro12 needing a pre-season competiton to get them going.
The championship season needs to be condensed to allow clubs to thrive.
Under the current system, how about starting the provincials and associated qualifiers in mid-May. No replays allowed.
Qualifiers start first weekend of June, again with no replays allowed.
Leinster and Ulster would have multiple games each weekend, Munster and Connacht less so. Saturday games as well as Sunday. Maybe double up qualifiers with provincial ties and even go cross-code with the hurlers.
Target AI quarter finals no later than mid-July. AI semis first week of August and All-Ireland Final on the third Sunday in August.
County championships start in all counties bar the 4 semi-finalists in early August, and those 4 will get going by week 1 in September at the latest.
With regards to the league, just play the seven games. No semifinals for sure. Maybe a final if calendar allows it which gives a bit of revenue to the finalists.
The big loss to the GAA will be the revenue from the replay...should it be done away with at all levels? If player welfare, and keeping players in the game, are truly top priorities of the top brass, then the replay must go.
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 12, 2015, 08:11:51 AM
If player welfare, and keeping players in the game, are truly top priorities of the top brass, then the replay must go.
Won't happen - €€€€€€€€€s
How do you end replays?
Endless periods of extra time? or Penalties?
Fight, Fight, Fight.
Quote from: dec on July 13, 2015, 08:27:11 PM
How do you end replays?
Endless periods of extra time? or Penalties?
Number of wides, number of yellow, number of blacks, number of reds, number of frees conceded.
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 13, 2015, 09:39:37 PM
Fight, Fight, Fight.
Followed by a frank discussion.
Play till a result. If level after 70 minutes, plus the usual 2 minutes, then the next score wins. Very simple. Referees are well used to playing for the draw, now change that mindset to a result must be realized.
Not too complicated. Just do it.
Quote from: dec on July 13, 2015, 08:27:11 PM
How do you end replays?
Endless periods of extra time? or Penalties?
Crossbar challenge.
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 14, 2015, 12:46:45 PM
Play till a result. If level after 70 minutes, plus the usual 2 minutes, then the next score wins. Very simple. Referees are well used to playing for the draw, now change that mindset to a result must be realized.
Not too complicated. Just do it.
Totally agree. Seriously this has been a huge issue for years. You can allow an two extra subs if God forbid game goes to double overtime.
If somehow somebody has the foresight to do this, The schedule can be drawn up in January, Full stop.
Clubs, players, supporters families can plan accordingly.
I know I have spoke about this almost too much, but look at the potential c**k up that can occur over the next two to three weeks.
Potential fixture fiasco.
If any of the below fixtures, and you can now also include the Munster football final replay July 18th end in a draw, then the All Ireland Q/finals which are penciled in for August 2nd and August 8th cannot go ahead, unless replay of drawn game is mid-week. (not going to happen)
It truly seems like the fixture committees thumb their noses at fans. Lets do a hypothetical for a moment. Mayo beat Sligo by a point in Connacht final. They will then be scheduled to play August 8th in the All-Ireland Q/Final.
However, if their potential opponents who play on August 1st in last qualifier round end up playing a draw after extra time, then Mayo are not playing on August 8th. Piss poor if you ask me, considering the fans both from Ireland and outside who will have booked flights and holidays post the Connacht final. The same scenario holds true for all other provincial winners should their potential opponents games scheduled the
week before end up in a draw.
Saturday July 25th, 2015
GAA Football All Ireland Senior Championship 2015 Round 4A
TBC
Provincial Final Loser (Westmeath /Fermanagh)
Winner scheduled to play following weekend in Q/final.
Kildare v Cork/Kerry.
Winner scheduled to play following weekend in Q/final.
Date TBC - Saturday August 1st/Sunday August 2nd, 2015
GAA Football All Ireland Senior Championship 2015 Round 4B
TBC
Provincial Final Loser (Connacht / Ulster)
vs.
Round 3B Winner
Winner scheduled to play following weekend
TBC
More info
GAA Football All Ireland Senior Championship 2015 Round 4B
TBC
Provincial Final Loser (Connacht / Ulster)
vs.
Round 3B Winner
Winner scheduled to play following weekend
TBC
More info
My alternative championship format; basically it's four groups of eight linking directly to a straight knockout competition.
Stage one is the four groups of eight (using the four divisions currently used in the National Football League). The top four teams go into a semi-final, as is already done in division one (this will be done in all four divisions), the winner of the final goes through to a quarter final (and is promoted where applicable), the lower of the final goes into round one. The two losing semi-finalists go into the qualifiers against the teams that finished fifth and sixth, the draw is highest placed against sixth place and second highest placed against fifth, as an added bonus for their top four finish they get home advantage. The winner of the final goes through to round one. I would like to reiterate that this occurs in each division. The bottom two teams are out of the Championship (and there is a relegation play-off, when relegation is applicable). (I also thinking that maybe the bottom two teams from each division from each division get entered into some sort of shield for extra games and morale)
Stage two is straight knockout. There is a 'Side A' and a 'Side B'. On 'Side A' the losing finalist from Division One faces the qualifier from Division Two and the losing finalist from Division Two faces the qualifier from Division One in round one, then they face they face the champion from Division One/Two in the Quarter Finals.
On 'Side B' the losing finalist from Division Three faces face the qualifier from Division Four and the losing finalist from Division Four face the qualifier from Division Three and the winners face the champions of Division Three/Four in the Quarter Finals.
It sounds confusing/complicated the way I just explained it but in practice it's quite simple
Quote from: Mayo4Sam14 on July 14, 2015, 04:35:32 PM
My alternative championship format; basically it's four groups of eight linking directly to a straight knockout competition.
Stage one is the four groups of eight (using the four divisions currently used in the National Football League). The top four teams go into a semi-final, as is already done in division one (this will be done in all four divisions), the winner of the final goes through to a quarter final (and is promoted where applicable), the lower of the final goes into round one. The two losing semi-finalists go into the qualifiers against the teams that finished fifth and sixth, the draw is highest placed against sixth place and second highest placed against fifth, as an added bonus for their top four finish they get home advantage. The winner of the final goes through to round one. I would like to reiterate that this occurs in each division. The bottom two teams are out of the Championship (and there is a relegation play-off, when relegation is applicable). (I also thinking that maybe the bottom two teams from each division from each division get entered into some sort of shield for extra games and morale)
Stage two is straight knockout. There is a 'Side A' and a 'Side B'. On 'Side A' the losing finalist from Division One faces the qualifier from Division Two and the losing finalist from Division Two faces the qualifier from Division One in round one, then they face they face the champion from Division One/Two in the Quarter Finals.
On 'Side B' the losing finalist from Division Three faces face the qualifier from Division Four and the losing finalist from Division Four face the qualifier from Division Three and the winners face the champions of Division Three/Four in the Quarter Finals.
It sounds confusing/complicated the way I just explained it but in practice it's quite simple
So both Tyrone and Derry are not even allowed into the championship part for 2015?
Complete non-starter.
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 14, 2015, 12:46:45 PM
Play till a result. If level after 70 minutes, plus the usual 2 minutes, then the next score wins. Very simple. Referees are well used to playing for the draw, now change that mindset to a result must be realized.
Not too complicated. Just do it.
It's not complicated and it definitely has its virtues, but it's not what people want. Even the simple change that was introducing extra-time for games before the provincial semi-final stage, something that only impacted on 15/16 (I don't know what the story is with New York and replays) championship games caused uproar when it dawned on people what it meant.
Edit: although the more I think about it, the more I like it. The NFL (the American one) managed for years with a next-score-the-winner tiebreak, which amounted to a coin toss as the team who won it would grind their way into field goal range. I think they've changed it recently so each team gets the ball once. Maybe the first to get two scores?
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 15, 2015, 07:21:46 AM
So both Tyrone and Derry are not even allowed into the championship part for 2015?
Complete non-starter. GREAT IDEA !!! ;D
Quote from: Rossfan on July 15, 2015, 11:39:33 AM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 15, 2015, 07:21:46 AM
So both Tyrone and Derry are not even allowed into the championship part for 2015?
Complete non-starter. GREAT IDEA !!! ;D
Brilliant reposte.
Wouldn't yer man Freud have some craic analyzing the GAA?
In 10 minutes he'd be calling the Germans inbred bastards, and the Italians dirty f**kers.
Quote from: thewobbler on July 12, 2015, 07:37:51 AM
Quote from: westbound on July 10, 2015, 03:39:49 PM
If the leagues takes such importance that it impacts a team's standing/seeding in the championship, then the pre-season competitions will have to be kept. There is no way that teams will go straight into such an important league competition without having played some games. If there is no pre-season comps (fbd, o'byrne cup etc.) then teams will just end up playing challenge matches, so we may as well keep the pre-season comps in that scenario.
let them organise friendlies then. I don't see see teams in the EPL, NFL or Pro12 needing a pre-season competiton to get them going.
I've no problem with that at all. But the point I was making was that it won't actually free up any time for club matches because the county managers will want the players for these friendlies, because they cant afford to be experimenting in the league if it has such importance.
Quote from: westbound on July 15, 2015, 11:49:03 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 12, 2015, 07:37:51 AM
Quote from: westbound on July 10, 2015, 03:39:49 PM
If the leagues takes such importance that it impacts a team's standing/seeding in the championship, then the pre-season competitions will have to be kept. There is no way that teams will go straight into such an important league competition without having played some games. If there is no pre-season comps (fbd, o'byrne cup etc.) then teams will just end up playing challenge matches, so we may as well keep the pre-season comps in that scenario.
let them organise friendlies then. I don't see see teams in the EPL, NFL or Pro12 needing a pre-season competiton to get them going.
I've no problem with that at all. But the point I was making was that it won't actually free up any time for club matches because the county managers will want the players for these friendlies, because they cant afford to be experimenting in the league if it has such importance.
Actually the soccer teams do have pre-season competitions to get them going. Those 4 team tournaments are quite popular.
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 15, 2015, 03:14:43 PM
Quote from: westbound on July 15, 2015, 11:49:03 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 12, 2015, 07:37:51 AM
Quote from: westbound on July 10, 2015, 03:39:49 PM
If the leagues takes such importance that it impacts a team's standing/seeding in the championship, then the pre-season competitions will have to be kept. There is no way that teams will go straight into such an important league competition without having played some games. If there is no pre-season comps (fbd, o'byrne cup etc.) then teams will just end up playing challenge matches, so we may as well keep the pre-season comps in that scenario.
let them organise friendlies then. I don't see see teams in the EPL, NFL or Pro12 needing a pre-season competiton to get them going.
I've no problem with that at all. But the point I was making was that it won't actually free up any time for club matches because the county managers will want the players for these friendlies, because they cant afford to be experimenting in the league if it has such importance.
Actually the soccer teams do have pre-season competitions to get them going. Those 4 team tournaments are quite popular.
Yea, we could have the O'Byrne Cup in Hong Kong or Singapore with 100,000 locals singing
'Come on ye boys in blue.' like they really, really mean it this time.
Still a lot of talk around this. I still think the proposal below would help solve a lot of issues and create a lot more meaningful games throughout the year (while still playing a similar number to currently). Would still have the usual issues like Dublin being too strong in Leinster but no system will solve that. I think it would be a very good starting point in helping find a solution. It won't help dual players etc but there isn't too many of them left.
Highlights
- The provincial championship will be the first competition played in the year and will be based on groups and there will be finals.
- Performance in the provincial championship will determine whether you enter an a or b all ireland championship.
- Teams who win the provincial championships will get seeded in pot 1 for the a championship draw and runners up in pot 2.
- Provincial championship winners and runners up will carry points into the group stages of the all ireland championship.
- Bonus points will awarded in the championship for teams scoring over 20 points to encourage attacking football.
- County players will play a minimum of 7 games for their clubs which will be the games that will determine which championship you play in.
County Season - Part 1 (Late Feb to early April)
Each province will be allocated a number of places in the a and b championship based on recent years performances. Based on recent years (and province size) a fair allocation may be 6 to ulster, 4 to leinster, 2 to munster and 2 to connacht. The 2 remaining places will be determined by play offs between the 7th ulster team. 3rd connacht team, 3rd munster team and 5th leinster team.
Ulster championship
- London will be added to this giving two groups of 5 teams with seedings based on prior year national league for first year. Each team will play each other once.
- Top 3 teams in each group will qualify for the a all ireland championship. Top 2 teams will qualify for the ulster semi finals.
- The two 4th placed teams will play off with the winner playing the 3rd placed team in connaught, with the winners of this qualifying for the A all ireland championship.
- There will be semi finals and finals. The winners will get 4 points start in their group for the all ireland championship and be top seeds and the runners up will get 2 and be second seeds. This will help maintain the importance of winning the championship particularly as group winners in the all ireland will play 4th placed team in other section in the quarter finals.
Leinster
- There will be 3 groups of 4 teams who will play each other once. Again seeding based on prior years national league for the first year.
- The group winners and best placed second team will qualify for the semi finals and qualify for the A All Ireland championship.
- The other two second placed teams will play each other with the losers going to the b championship and the winners playing the 3rd placed team in Munster with the winners of that getting into the A championship.
- As above there will be semi finals and the provincial winners will get 4 points start in their group in the all ireland championship and be top seeds and runners up will get 2 and be second seeds.
Connacht and Munster
- There will be 5/6 teams in each championship. Again these teams will play each other once.
- The top two teams in each championship will qualify for their provincial final.
- The third placed teams will have play offs against the 5th team in leinster/7th team in ulster with the winners getting into the a championship.
- The top two teams will play off in the provincial final - first will have home advantage (both provinces have teams capable of hosting it and might make earlier game more interesting). Again the winners will be top seed in the all ireland championship and get 4 points to start in their group and second place will be 2nd seeds and get 2 points to start with.
These fixtures will be played off weekly and be wrapped up within 7 weeks - starting say the 21/22nd feb and finishing 4/5 april.
Club Season - Part 1 (with county players) (18/19 April - 16/17 May)
Ideally each county will have a similar format.
In Tyrone there is 16 teams in each championship. These would be split into two groups of 8. Each team playing each other once and county players available for all games. The top 4 teams would make the county quarter finals and the bottom two would go into relegation play off games.
During this first part of the season the aim would be to play the first 5 games.
County Season Part 2 (30/31 May - 25/26 July)
- The A and B championship have been determined from the above. And there has been time to get all the fixtures sorted out and spread out over the various games over the weekends to get maximum exposure for them.
- There will be two groups of 8 in each championship with seeding as per above and points carried forward for provincial winners/runner up. The top 4 teams in each section will qualify for quarter finals and first will play 4th and 2nd 3rd giving incentive to come as high as possible.
- Teams will get bonus points for scoring over 20 points in a game to encourage positive football.
- Each team will play 3 games at home and 3 away and one neutral. This will allow the use of bigger grounds for big double headers including croke park.
- The games will be spread out over 9 weekends to allow for breaks.
- GAA to work with local councils to help promote games and have other events in the area to really sell the games. Consider beer tents etc and corporate end were possible building on what rugby has been doing in the area. Push season tickets (can have a home season ticket for the 3 games or extended one to cover away) and also ensure large grounds aren't being used were not applicable eg Derry may play a game or two in Owenbeg. Clubs can be rewarded directly for selling season tickets.
Club Season Part 2 (30/31 May - 5/6 September)
- County boards will need to come up with a decent summer league that can be sold to clubs and that they will have to buy into. Currently during this time of year too many games are held up cause county players aren't available. A meaningful separate league needs to be put in place without them to allow for regualr football. It could be say 11 games or maybe less and build in a divisional championship as well to improve quality. Club games could be played Friday nights to avoid clashes with county games and ensuring club players have the weekends free over the summer.
County Season Part 3 (8/9 August - 5/6 September)
- All Ireland quarter finals in A & B championship the 8/9 August, semi finals two weeks later and finals two weeks after that.
Club Season Part 3 (12/13 September - 31 October))
- Clubs play remaining 2 games of group from early season and then quarter finals/ semi finals and finals as well as promotion /relegation period during this time.
- Provincial championships and All Ireland club run off pre Christmas.
RedhandSanta, I'll read your proposal in depth later but are you proposing a two-tier championship?
Quote from: Redhand Santa on October 23, 2015, 11:03:59 AM
Still a lot of talk around this. I still think the proposal below would help solve a lot of issues and create a lot more meaningful games throughout the year (while still playing a similar number to currently). Would still have the usual issues like Dublin being too strong in Leinster but no system will solve that. I think it would be a very good starting point in helping find a solution. It won't help dual players etc but there isn't too many of them left.
Highlights
- The provincial championship will be the first competition played in the year and will be based on groups and there will be finals.
- Performance in the provincial championship will determine whether you enter an a or b all ireland championship.
- Teams who win the provincial championships will get seeded in pot 1 for the a championship draw and runners up in pot 2.
- Provincial championship winners and runners up will carry points into the group stages of the all ireland championship.
- Bonus points will awarded in the championship for teams scoring over 20 points to encourage attacking football.
- County players will play a minimum of 7 games for their clubs which will be the games that will determine which championship you play in.
County Season - Part 1 (Late Feb to early April)
Each province will be allocated a number of places in the a and b championship based on recent years performances. Based on recent years (and province size) a fair allocation may be 6 to ulster, 4 to leinster, 2 to munster and 2 to connacht. The 2 remaining places will be determined by play offs between the 7th ulster team. 3rd connacht team, 3rd munster team and 5th leinster team.
Ulster championship
- London will be added to this giving two groups of 5 teams with seedings based on prior year national league for first year. Each team will play each other once.
- Top 3 teams in each group will qualify for the a all ireland championship. Top 2 teams will qualify for the ulster semi finals.
- The two 4th placed teams will play off with the winner playing the 3rd placed team in connaught, with the winners of this qualifying for the A all ireland championship.
- There will be semi finals and finals. The winners will get 4 points start in their group for the all ireland championship and be top seeds and the runners up will get 2 and be second seeds. This will help maintain the importance of winning the championship particularly as group winners in the all ireland will play 4th placed team in other section in the quarter finals.
Leinster
- There will be 3 groups of 4 teams who will play each other once. Again seeding based on prior years national league for the first year.
- The group winners and best placed second team will qualify for the semi finals and qualify for the A All Ireland championship.
- The other two second placed teams will play each other with the losers going to the b championship and the winners playing the 3rd placed team in Munster with the winners of that getting into the A championship.
- As above there will be semi finals and the provincial winners will get 4 points start in their group in the all ireland championship and be top seeds and runners up will get 2 and be second seeds.
Connacht and Munster
- There will be 5/6 teams in each championship. Again these teams will play each other once.
- The top two teams in each championship will qualify for their provincial final.
- The third placed teams will have play offs against the 5th team in leinster/7th team in ulster with the winners getting into the a championship.
- The top two teams will play off in the provincial final - first will have home advantage (both provinces have teams capable of hosting it and might make earlier game more interesting). Again the winners will be top seed in the all ireland championship and get 4 points to start in their group and second place will be 2nd seeds and get 2 points to start with.
These fixtures will be played off weekly and be wrapped up within 7 weeks - starting say the 21/22nd feb and finishing 4/5 april.
Club Season - Part 1 (with county players) (18/19 April - 16/17 May)
Ideally each county will have a similar format.
In Tyrone there is 16 teams in each championship. These would be split into two groups of 8. Each team playing each other once and county players available for all games. The top 4 teams would make the county quarter finals and the bottom two would go into relegation play off games.
During this first part of the season the aim would be to play the first 5 games.
County Season Part 2 (30/31 May - 25/26 July)
- The A and B championship have been determined from the above. And there has been time to get all the fixtures sorted out and spread out over the various games over the weekends to get maximum exposure for them.
- There will be two groups of 8 in each championship with seeding as per above and points carried forward for provincial winners/runner up. The top 4 teams in each section will qualify for quarter finals and first will play 4th and 2nd 3rd giving incentive to come as high as possible.
- Teams will get bonus points for scoring over 20 points in a game to encourage positive football.
- Each team will play 3 games at home and 3 away and one neutral. This will allow the use of bigger grounds for big double headers including croke park.
- The games will be spread out over 9 weekends to allow for breaks.
- GAA to work with local councils to help promote games and have other events in the area to really sell the games. Consider beer tents etc and corporate end were possible building on what rugby has been doing in the area. Push season tickets (can have a home season ticket for the 3 games or extended one to cover away) and also ensure large grounds aren't being used were not applicable eg Derry may play a game or two in Owenbeg. Clubs can be rewarded directly for selling season tickets.
Club Season Part 2 (30/31 May - 5/6 September)
- County boards will need to come up with a decent summer league that can be sold to clubs and that they will have to buy into. Currently during this time of year too many games are held up cause county players aren't available. A meaningful separate league needs to be put in place without them to allow for regualr football. It could be say 11 games or maybe less and build in a divisional championship as well to improve quality. Club games could be played Friday nights to avoid clashes with county games and ensuring club players have the weekends free over the summer.
County Season Part 3 (8/9 August - 5/6 September)
- All Ireland quarter finals in A & B championship the 8/9 August, semi finals two weeks later and finals two weeks after that.
Club Season Part 3 (12/13 September - 31 October))
- Clubs play remaining 2 games of group from early season and then quarter finals/ semi finals and finals as well as promotion /relegation period during this time.
- Provincial championships and All Ireland club run off pre Christmas.
The biggest problem here Redhand Santa is that you actually aren't considering the county player's needs in this proposal.
Serious, first-choice county players are 100% focused on county football while the county season is still alive. While most won't say it out loud, club football is actually an inconvenience for these players during this time, as it increases their demands, breaks their routines, and plays havoc with their role and mindset.
Yet once a county season is over, county players can genuinely thrive in their roles as leaders of their clubs. They aren't distracted.
(It's slightly different for fringe county players, as they get competitive action and get to be big fish again, but that's a different kettle of fish.)
What your proposal would do is force players to obey two masters (pressure doesn't just come from managers, it comes from entire clubs, and in some cases, entire counties) throughout the football season. If I was a county player, I genuinely wouldn't thank you for that.
Esmarelda - yes and no. I'm proposing everyone enters their provincial championship and from their you will either qualify for an a or b championship. So everyone starts of in the same tier and has same chance of winning the championship. I appreciate a big problem could be how serious teams take the b championship. The only way to possibly solve it is to give the winners a chance to get back into the main championship at the quarter final stage.
Thewobbler - at the minute the players already have that problem. In my proposal at least I have set periods in the year that they will play club football and that they will be available for every game that impacts who wins the club championship and which championship you play in.
Introducing bonus points to league structures for high scoring could be one way to attempt to make the game more attacking.
My proposal are only a draft outline but I think they would be a lot better than what is currently there.
GAA have circulated a 85 page document to all counties with 18 proposals at the start of the week.
The simplest solutions are always the best.
Smaller pre season competitions (less games) played on round robin, with no finals.
Less league games (more divisions) with promotion and relegation of top/bottom teams (league final not needed)
Play off knockout provincial competitions within 6 weeks.
Open draw for proper All Ireland championship, provincial winners seeded into draw (first round bye), other teams seeded into 1st round or 2nd round games based on league and provincial record over 2 years.
No back doors. You get two chances to win a title.
Preseason should be about getting players up to fitness levels for the league
Less league games in the poor weather
Provincial Games will have set weekends allowing for club games in April/May/mid June
Much easier to plan All Ireland competition in June/July/August, allowing for club games in breaks between games.
Quote from: shezam on October 23, 2015, 02:01:58 PM
GAA have circulated a 85 page document to all counties with 18 proposals at the start of the week.
Eighteen!!! :o
At least there's plenty to discuss anyway and they are all real proposals. Who was it said only journalists and Gaaboarders were talking about changing AI senior Inter County??? ;D
Hard to see an agreed proposal going to Congress 2016.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 23, 2015, 02:27:45 PM
Quote from: shezam on October 23, 2015, 02:01:58 PM
GAA have circulated a 85 page document to all counties with 18 proposals at the start of the week.
Eighteen!!! :o
At least there's plenty to discuss anyway and they are all real proposals. Who was it said only journalists and Gaaboarders were talking about changing AI senior Inter County??? ;D
Hard to see an agreed proposal going to Congress 2016.
Here http://www.filedropper.com/allirelandseniorfootballchampionshipproposals2017andbeyond
They want responses with the view to forwarding a proposal to congress.
Thanks shezam.
Hard for th'oul brain to take it all in!
I think the current structure is fine as it is with an exception for the qualifiers. There is definitely an imbalance in the Provincial Championships but because of the tradition of them and the value I would have attached to the Ulster title I would hate toe see them being devalued or scrapped.
If there is an imbalance to the provincial championships which there is, then the qualifiers should seek to redress that balance. Look at the draw for next year's Championship. It's absolutely guaranteed than a minimum of four teams from Ulster who compete in the top two divisions are definitely going to be in the hat for the first round of the qualifiers, where they could be drawn against each other in the very first round and gone by the middle of June after playing two games. Some people may say that's the luck of the draw but it's not, with the way the format is structured around the Provincial Championships - it's not an open draw, a lot of it is predetermined and certain counties have significant advantages. Cork and Kerry can pretty much look forward to an easy run to a minimum of the last 8 every year without breaking sweat.
The qualifiers, as much as reasonably possible, should aim to seperate counties from the same province meeting until a minimum of the last 12. You see it in the football World Cup where countries are seeded on Geographical basis for the groups stages, certain groups do end up with two European countries in a group due to the overflow of European teams in it but I do think it's a fair reflection on protecting the teams who had the more difficult route to getting there.
Round One:
The first round of the qualifiers includes 16 teams:
5 from Ulster
7 from Leinster
2 from Munster
2 from Connacht
On this basis you could spit it up say:
Pot A:
5 Ulster teams
2 Munster teams
1 Connacht team
Pot B:
7 Leinster teams
1 Connacht team
In this round there would be a stipulation that the Connacht teams can't draw each other.
Round Two:
For argument sake we will say the following teams progressed from the round one phase:
Pot A:
4 Ulster
3 Leinster
1 Munster
Pot B:
2 losing semi finalists from each province
Again there would be a stipulation where teams from the same province can't meet, the only case whereby this could not be possible would be if the 7 Leinster counties won their games.
a) That's highly unlikely
b) In the event of it then there will be one all provincial game
Round Three:
Here the winners will again be separated into different pots defined by their provincial attachment, for arguments sake we will say it is of the following composition:
4 Ulster
2 Leinster
1 Connacht
1 Munster
Given the numbers here we can put the Ulster counties into one pot and the rest into another.
Round Four:
Here you have the winners from Round Three playing off against the losing Provincial Finalists, for argument sake we will say the composition of the Round Three winners are put into Pot A as follows:
Pot A:
2 Ulster
1 Leinster
1 Connacht
Pot B:
Losing finalist from each province, again I would like to see Provincial match-ups being avoided until the last 8.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on October 26, 2015, 09:50:40 AM
I think the current structure is fine as it is with an exception for the qualifiers. There is definitely an imbalance in the Provincial Championships but because of the tradition of them and the value I would have attached to the Ulster title I would hate toe see them being devalued or scrapped.
If there is an imbalance to the provincial championships which there is, then the qualifiers should seek to redress that balance. Look at the draw for next year's Championship. It's absolutely guaranteed than a minimum of four teams from Ulster who compete in the top two divisions are definitely going to be in the hat for the first round of the qualifiers, where they could be drawn against each other in the very first round and gone by the middle of June after playing two games. Some people may say that's the luck of the draw but it's not, with the way the format is structured around the Provincial Championships - it's not an open draw, a lot of it is predetermined and certain counties have significant advantages. Cork and Kerry can pretty much look forward to an easy run to a minimum of the last 8 every year without breaking sweat.
The qualifiers, as much as reasonably possible, should aim to seperate counties from the same province meeting until a minimum of the last 12. You see it in the football World Cup where countries are seeded on Geographical basis for the groups stages, certain groups do end up with two European countries in a group due to the overflow of European teams in it but I do think it's a fair reflection on protecting the teams who had the more difficult route to getting there.
Round One:
The first round of the qualifiers includes 16 teams:
5 from Ulster
7 from Leinster
2 from Munster
2 from Connacht
On this basis you could spit it up say:
Pot A:
5 Ulster teams
2 Munster teams
1 Connacht team
Pot B:
7 Leinster teams
1 Connacht team
In this round there would be a stipulation that the Connacht teams can't draw each other.
Round Two:
For argument sake we will say the following teams progressed from the round one phase:
Pot A:
4 Ulster
3 Leinster
1 Munster
Pot B:
2 losing semi finalists from each province
Again there would be a stipulation where teams from the same province can't meet, the only case whereby this could not be possible would be if the 7 Leinster counties won their games.
a) That's highly unlikely
b) In the event of it then there will be one all provincial game
Round Three:
Here the winners will again be separated into different pots defined by their provincial attachment, for arguments sake we will say it is of the following composition:
4 Ulster
2 Leinster
1 Connacht
1 Munster
Given the numbers here we can put the Ulster counties into one pot and the rest into another.
Round Four:
Here you have the winners from Round Three playing off against the losing Provincial Finalists, for argument sake we will say the composition of the Round Three winners are put into Pot A as follows:
Pot A:
2 Ulster
1 Leinster
1 Connacht
Pot B:
Losing finalist from each province, again I would like to see Provincial match-ups being avoided until the last 8.
Which one of the 18 proposals is that?
Heard there was no agreement at CC on any proposal to go to Congress.
Hardly surprising as Counties/clubs only had a couple of weeks to examine a 85 page Document with 17 or 18 different proposals in it.
Latest is that the CCCC is circulating 3 proposals to Counties with a view to having a new format in 2017.
All include keeping the Provincials.
Quote from: Rossfan on November 28, 2015, 12:59:57 PM
Latest is that the CCCC is circulating 3 proposals to Counties with a view to having a new format in 2017.
All include keeping the Provincials.
Any ideas on which ones they are?
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 28, 2015, 01:30:41 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 28, 2015, 12:59:57 PM
Latest is that the CCCC is circulating 3 proposals to Counties with a view to having a new format in 2017.
All include keeping the Provincials.
Any ideas on which ones they are?
GPA proposal not one of the three anyway.
I wonder are they three of the specific proposals or maybe a mix of parts of a few proposals.
I'm most interested to see if a B Championship is included in some or all of them.
I expect there is but hopefully to allow the "B" ( or Intermediate AI) winners into race for Sam.
So this article from the Irish News suggests that there was 4 changes given consideration by the CCCC with the GPA's idea quickly poo pooed! Looks like we'll see a slightly watered down version of what we have and another stab at a B competition - inspirational stuff!
Cahair O'Kane
29 December, 2015 01:00
THE GAA's Central Competitions Control Committee has all but ruled out the prospect of adopting the GPA's proposed revamp of the All-Ireland Senior Football Championship.
The players' body had recommended a 32-team, Champions League style All-Ireland series involving 8 groups of 4 teams, from which 24 teams would qualify for the knockout stages.
Their proposal would have guaranteed each county a minimum of three Championship games, with the provincial championships to be played as standalone competitions in April and May.
But, despite having backing from 31 of the 32 county football squads, CCCC have shot down their proposals and hammered the idea of a round robin system that "would take 48 games to eliminate just 8 teams", adding that "it seems like a whole lot of games with very little at the end of it all, which will not appeal to supporters or possibly even players themselves and would, in CCCC's view, serve to ultimately devalue the Championships".
It also warned that toying with the 'knockout or near knockout' element of the Championship would lead to the GAA "paying the consequences for attendances, bite etc".
Of the GPA proposals, CCCC also said that putting the provincial Championships as a standalone competition "will devalue those competitions in a very short period of time and would ultimately spell the end for them."
A meeting of Ard Chomhairle on November 14 'agreed broadly' that the current structure of the provincial championships should be retained.
It also agreed that any proposed alterations to the Championship should not involved adding more games to the current structure, which appears to rule out the idea of a round-robin Championship.
Ard Chomhairle did recommend exploring the 'feasibility of a second championship for lesser successful counties'.
Having looked at a total of 18 proposals, they narrowed the choices down to three, which were discussed at lengthy CCCC meetings on November 26 and December 1.
CCCC also discussed the GPA's proposals on the basis that it had been "submitted...on behalf of inter county players."
The other proposals received by Ard Chomhairle, put forward from various unnamed locations, were narrowed down to three, of which the CCCC appears to heavily favour one.
Of the proposals forwarded by Ard Chomhairle, it proposes the least radical change.
'Proposal 18' would see the provincial Championships stay as they are, with the introduction of a second tier Championship.
CCCC says that it is "the closest solution on show to the original brief of ensuring the structure best meets the needs of the less successful counties".
'Proposal 17' proposes the introduction of a round-robin provincial system, but based on groups of three as opposed to groups of four.
CCCC says that the prospect of guaranteeing at least one home Championship game for every county is appealing, and the fact that the proposal "clearly does not impact on the club calendar" is positive.
However, with the number of groups differing in the four provinces, the number of teams qualifying from groups would differentiate.
This, along with the fact that a team could potentially exit the Championship on score difference, is described by CCCC as 'a pretty major flaw'.
The other idea, 'Proposal 8', retains the provincial Championships and introduces four tiers of seeding to the All-Ireland Championship, which is run on a straight knockout basis.
The bottom two tiers would enter at the first round stage, with tier two following in round two and the top seeds entering at round three.
While agreeing that the proposal had its positives, CCCC appeared to rule it out on the basis that the lowest rank seeds must play against a higher seed, which it says is "at total odds with the original intention of the debate".
CCCC findings on key proposals were as follows;
Proposal 8
Retains the provincial Championships
All-Ireland becomes seeded, based on previous year's provincial Championship and the current year's league
Knockout All-Ireland Championship cannot start until after the provincial finals
Four tiers of seeding
Tiers 3 and 4 enter in round one; Tier 2 enters in round two; Tier 1 enters in round three
Open draw for quarter-finals and semi-finals
CCCC observations
'A change for change's sake'
Main issue is All-Ireland not starting until after the provincial Championships end – 'fair to assume it would have a fairly large impact on club games'
Seeding system not much different to what is currently in place
Reward for winning Provincial Championship isn't felt until the following year
Open draw for quarter- and semi-finals potentially devalues provincial champions as they could potentially be paired with the beaten finalists again
System ensures that lowest rank seeds MUST play against a higher seed, which is 'at total odds with the original intention of the debate'
Proposal 17
Retains provincial Championships but on a limited round robin basis
Groups of three in provincial Championships leading to provincial semi-finals
Ulster 3 groups of 3; Leinster 4 groups; Connacht 2 groups; Munster 2 groups
Assures one home and one away game for each county
Groups of three offer more to play for than in groups of four
Doesn't impact on club window
CCCC observations
Advantage lies with guaranteeing an annual home Championship game for every county
Clearly will not impact on the club calendar
Creates even-numbered groups within each province without having to 'transfer' counties to another province
Only 11 teams currently in Leinster – New York not viable, CCCC not comfortable with adding Kilkenny at 'their current stage of development'
Includes a second tier competition for Division 3 and 4 teams that don't reach provincial final
Over-familiarity of teams within provinces a potential issue
Inequity in terms of number of teams qualifying for provincial semi-finals between different provinces – ie two from each group would qualify in Munster, but only top team in Ulster would be guaranteed to progress
Potential for a team to exit the Championship on score difference, and possibility of teams exiting on 2 points while others progress on the same total, 'a pretty major flaw'
Proposal 18
Provincial Championship as it is with second tier Championship
8 teams eligible for 2nd tier Championship (based on Division 4 of most recent league) who do not qualify for provincial final
Reduces qualifier system by one round and adds three games for 2nd tier teams
CCCC observations
11 of the 18 proposals submitted looked for a second tier – 'we cannot ignore this even though it appears players from weaker counties would not be in favour'
Longer Championship involvement for 2nd tier teams could impact on club Championships in those counties
Offers the 'best of both worlds' to less successful counties
Those counties won't be exposed to embarrassingly one-sided qualifier games against strong opposition
Been tried before (Tommy Murphy Cup) – could it be guaranteed to be more attractive this time?
Could be amended to allow entry for winners to preliminary All-Ireland quarter-final
Closest solution on show to the original brief of ensuring structure best meets needs of less successful counties
GPA Proposal
32-team, Champions League style All-Ireland series with 8 groups of 4 teams
Top 3 teams in all groups qualify for next phase
Each county has a minimum of three Championship games
National Leagues remain as they are but no finals or semi-finals, and league positions will affect Championship seeding
Provincial Championships played as standalone competitions in April and May
Removes pre-season competitions in the provinces
CCCC observations
No real incentive for teams to win their provincial Championship – would ultimately spell the end for them
Number of games proposed at the times of year they're proposed at is bound to have a further negative impact on the club player
Takes no account for the hurling championship needing to be played
Round robin system would take 48 games to eliminate just 8 teams
Huge amount of dead-rubber games and more one-sided games
Doesn't particularly help the weaker teams. 'A cynic might suggest they will simply have more games to lose'
Toying with knockout or near-knockout games – 'the real jewel in the GAA crown' – will have consequences for attendances and the quality of games
Past round robin experiments have led to a huge decrease in attendances
Very little interest from spectators in early rounds, especially if 3 teams from every group of 4 qualify for next phase. Idea would devalue the Championships
CCCC are correct to say that the GPA proposal will, in the end, spell the end of the provincial championships. If the provincial championships are the acred cow (and in ulster they probably are) then CCCC were right. But should the provincial championships be a sacred cow?
As a starting point for the current AI series they are unequal and therefore unfair. If they fall away when their role in kicking off the AI series is discontinued then do they deserved to be preserved as sacred cows?
Unless the new version of the "Tommy Murphy" gives entry to the race for Sam then it will be booted out the door.
Did any county Convention come uop with anything better I wonder?
Impact on club football seems always to be a major sticking point, and rightly so.
It is time that the GAA bites the bullet and ensures that club football proceeds even when county football is going ahead. It seems to me that this is the only solution, as it ensures regular football for club players while protecting county players. The GAA needs to have basically club league football that can go ahead , even in the absence of county players, and club championship football when clubs have unrestricted access to their county players. This concept works well in rugby ie the international player management system. County players would be released to their clubs as soon as their county season is over, or in some cases, if they are not in the squad of 24 for the next county game. If the AI Intercounty final went ahead at end of August, that would give sept/oct for an extended club championship , with a system which includes involvement of all clubs for at least 6weeks , until semi and finals , including B championships , and relegation finals. Provincial club championships proceed in November , with all Ireland semis and finals in December , including the novelty of pre-Christmas club finals in Croke park under lights
The season would look something like this :
Dec: only club AI series & ?sigerson
Jan/Feb : preseason , no matches .
March/ April : league football , county and club. Including county u17/u20/senior with no squad crossover. League football should seed for championship.
May/early June : exam season/no county football matches/unrestricted club football.
Mid June to early sept: intercounty football championship at all levels, with minimum of 3 games/ club league football
Sept/oct : unrestricted club football
Nov/dec: provincial/AI club championship/? Sigerson.
The above is the only way we can ensure regular club matches for all, and protect county players from burnout/pressure from competing managers.
This may seem like a dramatic change, but it is essentially just a development of the current club calendar, with the only difference being the earlier AI Intercounty final. The extended club championship keeping all clubs active in sept/oct and the prechristmas club allirelands which I think will be very popular , allowing the GAA great exposure in December , these finals could also link in with the international rules series!
A key point is not allowing Intercounty squad crossover , but having more actual matches for young Intercounty players , which will enhance their development.
It puts the emphasis back on actually playing matches at both Intercounty and club level as opposed to long gaps between matches .
It takes pressure of both players and managements by defining the timeframes when players are available
Quote from: smelmoth on December 29, 2015, 02:54:29 PM
CCCC are correct to say that the GPA proposal will, in the end, spell the end of the provincial championships. If the provincial championships are the acred cow (and in ulster they probably are) then CCCC were right. But should the provincial championships be a sacred cow?
As a starting point for the current AI series they are unequal and therefore unfair. If they fall away when their role in kicking off the AI series is discontinued then do they deserved to be preserved as sacred cows?
The provincials are always the sticking point. Like you say, if you start off with these flawed, imbalanced, iniquitous competitions as your must-have cornerstone, then everything you come up with thereafter will by natural consequence also be flawed. Changing the championship structure into something decent, IMO, requires dispensing with the provincials in their current format. With respect to the players-from-whatever-county-that-has-never-won-a-provincial-title et al. and their heartfelt desire to win one and what it'd mean to the people up there etc., who are always wheeled out as an argument against this, that in itself is not a compelling reason to have the rest of the counties, spectators and the sport as a whole suffer as a result. I get that some people would love to win a provincial and I'm from a county that doesn't win them any more either, but it doesn't mean it's a good idea to ringfence them as some sort of almighty Queen Bee. What's so great about them anyway?
It's a shame that this opportunity to usher in real change might be passed up. It's so predictably GAA to open the door to change, light the fire and then go round the houses listening to the world and its mother's opinion, before effectively settling for something that just rearranges the fine china in the display cabinet.
The provincial championship's days are numbered. But the decision to move forward with something different will only be taken about 20 years after its due, as is the GAA way.
The whole thing needs an overhaul.
If things were right the whole lot from Senior Inter county right through to and including the Club All Irelands would be played in one calendar year. And that year would finish in October/November and the whole system would shut down for a couple of months to give all the players counties and clubs a break.
Quote from: Nihilist on January 04, 2016, 11:47:28 PM
The whole thing needs an overhaul.
If things were right the whole lot from Senior Inter county right through to and including the Club All Irelands would be played in one calendar year. And that year would finish in October/November and the whole system would shut down for a couple of months to give all the players counties and clubs a break.
Far too much common sense in that!!
It's always one item at a time gets changed in GAAworld which usually creates other problems down the line.
Calendar/ structures of competitions/eligibilities all need reorganising so that
1 elite players aren't wrecked/burnt out by 22
2 ordinary club players get regular games in a logical way.
Quote from: Rossfan on January 05, 2016, 10:54:24 AM
Quote from: Nihilist on January 04, 2016, 11:47:28 PM
The whole thing needs an overhaul.
If things were right the whole lot from Senior Inter county right through to and including the Club All Irelands would be played in one calendar year. And that year would finish in October/November and the whole system would shut down for a couple of months to give all the players counties and clubs a break.
Far too much common sense in that!!
It's always one item at a time gets changed in GAAworld which usually creates other problems down the line.
Calendar/ structures of competitions/eligibilities all need reorganising so that
1 elite players aren't wrecked/burnt out by 22
2 ordinary club players get regular games in a logical way.
Those 2 points totally encompass what is required.
An interesting difference between GAA and most other sports is the importance attached to winning underage competitions , as opposed to developing optimally for adult football.
Not sure about that 6th Sam. I think the GAA is at the vanguard of changing the underage mindset and soccer, rugby and most other sports, I'm aware of, were at least as bad, if not worse, than the GAA when it came to the importance of winning underage.
On the calendar thing, we'll I've posted repeatedly on this but Nihilist, Rossfan and Cavanmaniac have pretty much covered the key points for me - the thing has to be as a whole and not piecemeal and the provincials have to go as they are inherently flawed and therefore any format that includes them in inherently flawed.
No chance of it happening, thankfully.
Quote from: Zulu on January 05, 2016, 05:40:00 PM
d the provincials have to go as they are inherently flawed and therefore any format that includes them in inherently flawed.
I don't think we'll see that in our lifetimes Zulu.
However their timeframes need to be tightened up as do the closing stages of the A I championship.
Big gaps between games is now used for bucket loads of IC training instead of for Club championships as originally intended.
Quote from: Syferus on January 05, 2016, 06:22:43 PM
No chance of it happening, thankfully.
Of course it can happen, many of the GAA's sacred cows have been changed though, as Rossfan says, it won't be anytime soon. Why you're thankful a flawed format should stay is however beyond me.
QuoteHowever their timeframes need to be tightened up as do the closing stages of the A I championship.
Big gaps between games is now used for bucket loads of IC training instead of for Club championships as originally intended.
I agree with that Rossfan but we need to go further IMO. The simple reality is, if you knew the relative strengths of all the counties but they had no competition structure you wouldn't come up with the current one, or any based on the provincial championships. Everybody agrees last year's championship was poor and teams are gone overly defensive but if we had a system that had Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone, Donegal, Cork and Monaghan for example clashing regularly then we'd have something to look forward. Likewise Ross facing Galway, Laois, Derry, Cavan, Westmeath, Meath, Kildare etc. would get the juices flowing and there's plenty of local derbies in those match ups.
Why complain about the amount of IC games and the impact on club games but then support a format that means two thirds of those IC games are pointless mismatches? Get rid of games like Limerick v Kerry or Dublin v Carlow and replace them with Dublin v Kerry and Limerick v Carlow, have games played every two weeks (max) and give everyone a chance to win Sam but via the same, clear pathway.
Quote from: Zulu on January 05, 2016, 06:55:30 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 05, 2016, 06:22:43 PM
No chance of it happening, thankfully.
Of course it can happen, many of the GAA's sacred cows have been changed though, as Rossfan says, it won't be anytime soon. Why you're thankful a flawed format should stay is however beyond me.
I don't know why it can't happen either. If Croke Park put dates that were set in stone in place then Counties would have to adhere or else forfeit. And theoretically there is plenty of time to do it in a 8/9 month timeframe. Sure some counties would have to make changes to their systems but so be it. The alternative is just getting worse and worse as the demands on players increase. And this simply can't last indefinitely.
Quote from: Zulu on January 05, 2016, 06:55:30 PM
I agree with that Rossfan but we need to go further IMO. The simple reality is, if you knew the relative strengths of all the counties but they had no competition structure you wouldn't come up with the current one, or any based on the provincial championships.
That strikes at the heart of it for me and underlines just how hidebound by tradition the GAA is. Mini republics and career politicians in provinces are too keen on holding on to their own power, revenue streams, and influence to sacrifice the provincial championships. Therefore we're beholden to a dog's dinner of a structure that effectively serves nobody well apart from those controlling the various mini fiefdom. Let the power revert to clubs and counties I say, who needs provincial councils?
They are hardly necessary in these days of instant communications, motorways etc etc.
Different in the old days when everything had to be sent by post and it took half the day to get to your own county town, never mind to another County or to Dublin.
Instead of the not very prestigious NFL couldn't we retain the Provincials, run on a League basis in the early months and then have whatever All Ireland Championships under whatever structure in Summer??
In total the competitive GAA year takes roughly 10 months beginning with the National Leagues on last Sunday in January and ending with most of the provincial club finals being payed in November. The problem is that there are too many competitive fixtures in this schedule between League, Championship, Club and Inter-County.
Then you add in the likes of the FBD, McKenna Cup and the others which County teams supposedly use as a means for garnishing new talent required for the Leagues as well as the Championship. And its because the Leagues now are so tough and competitive as well that there is a higher onus on players.
I would propose going back to the old format of the League with having 4 divisions and weaker counties alongside stronger ones in the League. OK - you could say it diminishes the League but the the benefits of this are also many.
Primarily it gives County teams a chance to take a breather before the championship as they don't have to go all out to win every single game in the League as theoretically they should be able to put out weaker/newer team depending on the opposition.
It also gives the secondary counties all the way down to Div4 a chance to play against the top teams prior to meeting them in the championship. The assumption here is that current weaker Div4 teams would be better prepared then when they meet a big gun in the championship as they would have already played at least 2 or 3 top teams and got some feel for whats required.
And it should in theory allow for the non use of regular inter county players in the likes of the FBD, McKenna Cups etc. E.g. I see Mayo played nearly 10 regular Player/panelists from the past few years in that first FBD game. And I disagree whole heatedly with that. Long enough all season will these guys be required. And they should have nothing to prove to the management. The same goes for other regular inter-county players.
Quote from: Nihilist on January 06, 2016, 11:26:17 AM
I see Mayo played nearly 10 regular Player/panelists from the past few years in that first FBD game. And I disagree whole heatedly with that. Long enough all season will these guys be required. And they should have nothing to prove to the management. The same goes for other regular inter-county players.
I'm not too worried about them playing in those games. The majority of player do not over-play. They over-train. Its the latter that needs addressed
Quote from: Zulu on January 05, 2016, 06:55:30 PM
Why complain about the amount of IC games and the impact on club games but then support a format that means two thirds of those IC games are pointless mismatches? Get rid of games like Limerick v Kerry or Dublin v Carlow and replace them with Dublin v Kerry and Limerick v Carlow, have games played every two weeks (max) and give everyone a chance to win Sam but via the same, clear pathway.
They are no pointless games in the current championship. That's what makes it the best option available. Every game is knockout, every game means something. Every team has one chance to win their province. Then every team has one chance to win the All Ireland. Brilliant system.
Would be even better if there were 8 counties in each province, but there aren't any counties in Ulster or Leinster who will voluntarily move to Munster/Connacht, so it is what it is.
The Limericks and Carlows want to play the Dublins and Kerrys. Its good meaning but misguided neutrals who don't like it. If we could get 8 (or more) counties to volunteer to go into a Tommy Murphy/Junior/Intermediate/B championship, then great, we could look at an alternative 2 tier championship with 1 team promoted and 1 team relegated each year (similar to a well run county championship system). But we don't have 8 counties who want to play in a lower tier, so its a pointless argument.
Quote from: smelmoth on January 06, 2016, 11:32:36 AM
I'm not too worried about them playing in those games. The majority of player do not over-play. They over-train. Its the latter that needs addressed
OK - well I am. Supposing they get injured and are out for the season because they played in some totally unremarkable game in January in a swamp.
Quote from: Nihilist on January 06, 2016, 11:53:20 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on January 06, 2016, 11:32:36 AM
I'm not too worried about them playing in those games. The majority of player do not over-play. They over-train. Its the latter that needs addressed
OK - well I am. Supposing they get injured and are out for the season because they played in some totally unremarkable game in January in a swamp.
That would be unlucky or you might argue bad management but not a motivation to reorganise the game.
Quote from: Hound on January 06, 2016, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: Zulu on January 05, 2016, 06:55:30 PM
Why complain about the amount of IC games and the impact on club games but then support a format that means two thirds of those IC games are pointless mismatches? Get rid of games like Limerick v Kerry or Dublin v Carlow and replace them with Dublin v Kerry and Limerick v Carlow, have games played every two weeks (max) and give everyone a chance to win Sam but via the same, clear pathway.
They are no pointless games in the current championship. That's what makes it the best option available. Every game is knockout, every game means something. Every team has one chance to win their province. Then every team has one chance to win the All Ireland. Brilliant system.
Would be even better if there were 8 counties in each province, but there aren't any counties in Ulster or Leinster who will voluntarily move to Munster/Connacht, so it is what it is.
The Limericks and Carlows want to play the Dublins and Kerrys. Its good meaning but misguided neutrals who don't like it. If we could get 8 (or more) counties to volunteer to go into a Tommy Murphy/Junior/Intermediate/B championship, then great, we could look at an alternative 2 tier championship with 1 team promoted and 1 team relegated each year (similar to a well run county championship system). But we don't have 8 counties who want to play in a lower tier, so its a pointless argument.
I think you have a point. Some of the new proposals have merit but if we're to take the GPA at its word then there is no way a secondary competition can be enforced.
If we just tightened up the current system to be played over a shorter time then I'd be happy with the way things are.
Quote from: Hound on January 06, 2016, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: Zulu on January 05, 2016, 06:55:30 PM
Why complain about the amount of IC games and the impact on club games but then support a format that means two thirds of those IC games are pointless mismatches? Get rid of games like Limerick v Kerry or Dublin v Carlow and replace them with Dublin v Kerry and Limerick v Carlow, have games played every two weeks (max) and give everyone a chance to win Sam but via the same, clear pathway.
They are no pointless games in the current championship. That's what makes it the best option available. Every game is knockout, every game means something. Every team has one chance to win their province. Then every team has one chance to win the All Ireland. Brilliant system.
Would be even better if there were 8 counties in each province, but there aren't any counties in Ulster or Leinster who will voluntarily move to Munster/Connacht, so it is what it is.
The Limericks and Carlows want to play the Dublins and Kerrys. Its good meaning but misguided neutrals who don't like it. If we could get 8 (or more) counties to volunteer to go into a Tommy Murphy/Junior/Intermediate/B championship, then great, we could look at an alternative 2 tier championship with 1 team promoted and 1 team relegated each year (similar to a well run county championship system). But we don't have 8 counties who want to play in a lower tier, so its a pointless argument.
It's far from a pointless discussion. There are however, loads of pointless games in the championship. Carlow against Dublin is a pointless game as the result is never in doubt and the game itself offers neither county much. It's fanciful to say "every game means something. Every team has one chance to win their province", when they clearly don't. Do you seriously think a system is brilliant when a great team like Dublin can get to QF stage without playing a single division 1 team?
If the championship was the secondary competition then Carlow v Dublin would be fair enough for a once off shot at an upset etc. but it isn't fair on either team as a main competition. Carlow don't want to play Dublin and Limerick usually don't want to play Kerry and to argue otherwise is nonsense. Sure they might like a shot at them once but I've never met a footballer who generally didn't prefer to play teams they had a chance of beating. The current system means the top counties sleep walk their way to the QF's, the weakest teams have absolutely nothing to play for and the middle teams plod along hoping for a decent run every so often. So two thirds of the teams have little or no chance of success and the rest dander towards a QF before getting serious. A whole year of activity to get, maybe, 3 rounds of decent games and all the while the club scene is put on hold for this farce - brilliant system indeed.
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2016, 12:18:21 PM
It's far from a pointless discussion. There are however, loads of pointless games in the championship. Carlow against Dublin is a pointless game as the result is never in doubt and the game itself offers neither county much. It's fanciful to say "every game means something. Every team has one chance to win their province", when they clearly don't. Do you seriously think a system is brilliant when a great team like Dublin can get to QF stage without playing a single division 1 team?
It'sa temporary glitch that neither Meath nor Kildare are in the top 8 in the country. But the current system means that more often than not, the best 8 teams in the country get into the quarter-finals.
QuoteIf the championship was the secondary competition then Carlow v Dublin would be fair enough for a once off shot at an upset etc. but it isn't fair on either team as a main competition. Carlow don't want to play Dublin and Limerick usually don't want to play Kerry and to argue otherwise is nonsense. Sure they might like a shot at them once but I've never met a footballer who generally didn't prefer to play teams they had a chance of beating. The current system means the top counties sleep walk their way to the QF's, the weakest teams have absolutely nothing to play for and the middle teams plod along hoping for a decent run every so often. So two thirds of the teams have little or no chance of success and the rest dander towards a QF before getting serious. A whole year of activity to get, maybe, 3 rounds of decent games and all the while the club scene is put on hold for this farce - brilliant system indeed.
Carlow want the Sam Maguire to be their main competition!
I think you are missing that major point.
If you can get 8 counties (I think you'd probably need that to have a decent alternative competition) to opt out of Sam Maguire and into a secondary competition, then you'd definitely have a point. But until weaker counties want a secondary competition, its utterly pointless to think about introducing one as an alternative.
Sorry Hound and maybe I wasn't clear but I'm not suggesting Carlow can't compete for Sam. You're right they do want to play for it so we should allow them do it, however there are numerous better formats where they can do this - seeding teams from the leagues for example. At the moment Carlow get to play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship they've no chance of winning and an All Ireland series they've less chance of winning. Meanwhile Dublin play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship with hardly any competition and an All Ireland series they only have to tune in for the last three games. So basically neither our strongest or weakest teams get much of a season. How anyone thinks that's good for the GAA is beyond me.
Quote from: smelmoth on January 06, 2016, 12:05:17 PM
Quote from: Nihilist on January 06, 2016, 11:53:20 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on January 06, 2016, 11:32:36 AM
I'm not too worried about them playing in those games. The majority of player do not over-play. They over-train. Its the latter that needs addressed
OK - well I am. Supposing they get injured and are out for the season because they played in some totally unremarkable game in January in a swamp.
That would be unlucky or you might argue bad management but not a motivation to reorganise the game.
I never mentioned about re-organising the FBD.
What I said was that seasoned inter county performers should not be playing in these competitions. Can you point out one thing that management expect to learn from the likes of Cafferkey, Boyle, McLoughlin, Doherty, Parsons and more, that they haven't already seen or won't see later on in the season when pitches are in better shape?
Quote from: Nihilist on January 06, 2016, 01:20:06 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on January 06, 2016, 12:05:17 PM
Quote from: Nihilist on January 06, 2016, 11:53:20 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on January 06, 2016, 11:32:36 AM
I'm not too worried about them playing in those games. The majority of player do not over-play. They over-train. Its the latter that needs addressed
OK - well I am. Supposing they get injured and are out for the season because they played in some totally unremarkable game in January in a swamp.
That would be unlucky or you might argue bad management but not a motivation to reorganise the game.
I never mentioned about re-organising the FBD.
What I said was that seasoned inter county performers should not be playing in these competitions. Can you point out one thing that management expect to learn from the likes of Cafferkey, Boyle, McLoughlin, Doherty, Parsons and more, that they haven't already seen or won't see later on in the season when pitches are in better shape?
For the players themselves: A pre-league run out
For the players around them: A chance to get a run out in a strongish selection
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2016, 01:15:41 PM
Sorry Hound and maybe I wasn't clear but I'm not suggesting Carlow can't compete for Sam. You're right they do want to play for it so we should allow them do it, however there are numerous better formats where they can do this - seeding teams from the leagues for example. At the moment Carlow get to play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship they've no chance of winning and an All Ireland series they've less chance of winning. Meanwhile Dublin play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship with hardly any competition and an All Ireland series they only have to tune in for the last three games. So basically neither our strongest or weakest teams get much of a season. How anyone thinks that's good for the GAA is beyond me.
good post Zulu.
That sums up a lot of what is wrong with current structures
44% of those asked to join up with the Longford squad declined the offer.
http://www.balls.ie/gaa/longford-dilemma-points-to-a-very-worrying-trend-in-gaelic-football/320782?utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on January 06, 2016, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2016, 01:15:41 PM
Sorry Hound and maybe I wasn't clear but I'm not suggesting Carlow can't compete for Sam. You're right they do want to play for it so we should allow them do it, however there are numerous better formats where they can do this - seeding teams from the leagues for example. At the moment Carlow get to play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship they've no chance of winning and an All Ireland series they've less chance of winning. Meanwhile Dublin play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship with hardly any competition and an All Ireland series they only have to tune in for the last three games. So basically neither our strongest or weakest teams get much of a season. How anyone thinks that's good for the GAA is beyond me.
good post Zulu.
That sums up a lot of what is wrong with current structures
Isn't that the Carlow proposal; to seed the Championship which gives them realistic chance of a win or maybe two? I would think the league is the priority for all the Division 4 counties. They are more aware of the realities than any of us.
I am afraid the GAA is heading down a bad route and is going to follow the rugby template. There will be 10/12 top counties, paid, there will be no interest by the rest in a secondary competition. Maybe it will all work out for the better in the end - if it means that those counties are only concerned about quality club championships played in the summer months. They would sae a lot of money and effort if that was so - and have a much healthier domestic competition !
Quote from: Catch and Kick on January 06, 2016, 01:56:57 PM
Isn't that the Carlow proposal; to seed the Championship which gives them realistic chance of a win or maybe two? I would think the league is the priority for all the Division 4 counties. They are more aware of the realities than any of us.
I am afraid the GAA is heading down a bad route and is going to follow the rugby template. There will be 10/12 top counties, paid, there will be no interest by the rest in a secondary competition. Maybe it will all work out for the better in the end - if it means that those counties are only concerned about quality club championships played in the summer months. They would sae a lot of money and effort if that was so - and have a much healthier domestic competition !
Quite possible. Problem with this then of course is when a good player emerges from a weaker county who no longer participates in the championship. Would end up with those guys going off to stronger counties to get paid and thus abandoning their own clubs. GAA would definitely be on the way out then.
Any thoughts on my previous post of just re-structuring the League to allow weaker counties play stronger ones earlier on and get a taste for it ?
Quote from: Nihilist on January 06, 2016, 02:14:10 PM
Any thoughts on my previous post of just re-structuring the League to allow weaker counties play stronger ones earlier on and get a taste for it ?
Terrible idea. We need to be increasing the value of the league, not devaluing it.
Of all the ideas trialled for the league over the years the current one is the best as you play teams your own level, and if you want to play better teams, you have to earn it.
If I was to make one change I'd do away with the Div2, 3, 4 finals and bring back quarter-finals. This would go partially towards your idea in that the winners of Div 3 and 4 would get to play in the quarter-finals along with the top 2 in Div 2 and the top 4 in Div 1.
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2016, 01:15:41 PM
Sorry Hound and maybe I wasn't clear but I'm not suggesting Carlow can't compete for Sam. You're right they do want to play for it so we should allow them do it, however there are numerous better formats where they can do this - seeding teams from the leagues for example. At the moment Carlow get to play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship they've no chance of winning and an All Ireland series they've less chance of winning. Meanwhile Dublin play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship with hardly any competition and an All Ireland series they only have to tune in for the last three games. So basically neither our strongest or weakest teams get much of a season. How anyone thinks that's good for the GAA is beyond me.
As a Dublin fan I really enjoy the current system. The league has 7 entertaining games. Teams aren't as well prepared and there's always a few new lads getting a chance, but once they cross the line, both teams go at it. Nobody wants to be relegated and most want to make the semis.
The Leinster championship has been dull in recent years, but I firmly believe that it's cyclical and Kildare and Meath will both be Top 8 again within a few years and will give us competitive games (Meath were a very debatable penalty away from beating Tyrone this year).
As mentioned Carlow want to play in Leinster and want to play in the All Ireland, so I don't see how you go about giving them more meaningful championship games.
The fact is there is already seeding in the current system to give Carlow some chance of winning a game. Leinster first round has the wekaest teams in Leinster in it (as previous years semi-finalists have a bye into the QF), so Carlow don't get thrown in against Dublin at the outset. Similary the losers of the first round can only meet other first round losers in the All Ireland series. Again, a potentially winnable game for any team - an Ulster team would be a hard draw, but there have been many many examples of so-called weak Leinster counties beating Ulster teams in the first couple of rounds of the All Ireland series.
Quote from: Hound on January 06, 2016, 02:54:29 PM
Quote from: Nihilist on January 06, 2016, 02:14:10 PM
Any thoughts on my previous post of just re-structuring the League to allow weaker counties play stronger ones earlier on and get a taste for it ?
Terrible idea. We need to be increasing the value of the league, not devaluing it.
Of all the ideas trialled for the league over the years the current one is the best as you play teams your own level, and if you want to play better teams, you have to earn it.
If I was to make one change I'd do away with the Div2, 3, 4 finals and bring back quarter-finals. This would go partially towards your idea in that the winners of Div 3 and 4 would get to play in the quarter-finals along with the top 2 in Div 2 and the top 4 in Div 1.
Agree Hound, the league needs to be taken more seriously, not less. You don't get better by playing teams way stronger than you anyway.
Quote from: Hound on January 06, 2016, 03:07:58 PM
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2016, 01:15:41 PM
Sorry Hound and maybe I wasn't clear but I'm not suggesting Carlow can't compete for Sam. You're right they do want to play for it so we should allow them do it, however there are numerous better formats where they can do this - seeding teams from the leagues for example. At the moment Carlow get to play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship they've no chance of winning and an All Ireland series they've less chance of winning. Meanwhile Dublin play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship with hardly any competition and an All Ireland series they only have to tune in for the last three games. So basically neither our strongest or weakest teams get much of a season. How anyone thinks that's good for the GAA is beyond me.
As a Dublin fan I really enjoy the current system. The league has 7 entertaining games. Teams aren't as well prepared and there's always a few new lads getting a chance, but once they cross the line, both teams go at it. Nobody wants to be relegated and most want to make the semis.
The Leinster championship has been dull in recent years, but I firmly believe that it's cyclical and Kildare and Meath will both be Top 8 again within a few years and will give us competitive games (Meath were a very debatable penalty away from beating Tyrone this year).
As mentioned Carlow want to play in Leinster and want to play in the All Ireland, so I don't see how you go about giving them more meaningful championship games.
The fact is there is already seeding in the current system to give Carlow some chance of winning a game. Leinster first round has the wekaest teams in Leinster in it (as previous years semi-finalists have a bye into the QF), so Carlow don't get thrown in against Dublin at the outset. Similary the losers of the first round can only meet other first round losers in the All Ireland series. Again, a potentially winnable game for any team - an Ulster team would be a hard draw, but there have been many many examples of so-called weak Leinster counties beating Ulster teams in the first couple of rounds of the All Ireland series.
The league is the best part of the whole season and is the key to creating a better format IMO.
But even if Meath and Kildare get better that's 3 out of 11 teams, Munster 2 out of 6, Connacht 1 or 2 out of 5 and Ulster 2 or 3 out of 9, the rest of the teams, 95% of the time, can throw their hat at a provincial title.
The All Ireland series has some merit but it's a long way from perfect. We have a cup competition as our main (only) competition and the rest are just warm up events for that.
You may enjoy it but surely you'd enjoy it more if you were meeting the top teams in real meaningful games every two weeks while Carlow also had something meaningful to win and a pathway to closing the gap on the likes of Meath or Kildare, if not Dublin.
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2016, 03:21:05 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 06, 2016, 02:54:29 PM
Quote from: Nihilist on January 06, 2016, 02:14:10 PM
Any thoughts on my previous post of just re-structuring the League to allow weaker counties play stronger ones earlier on and get a taste for it ?
Terrible idea. We need to be increasing the value of the league, not devaluing it.
Of all the ideas trialled for the league over the years the current one is the best as you play teams your own level, and if you want to play better teams, you have to earn it.
If I was to make one change I'd do away with the Div2, 3, 4 finals and bring back quarter-finals. This would go partially towards your idea in that the winners of Div 3 and 4 would get to play in the quarter-finals along with the top 2 in Div 2 and the top 4 in Div 1.
Agree Hound, the league needs to be taken more seriously, not less. You don't get better by playing teams way stronger than you anyway.
So you want to keep an elite competition where the top teams are honing their skills against each other year after year and the weaker teams are falling further behind. The idea that teams will make the leap to this level doesn't stand up either. In the past the only teams I remember that have made the leap have been Westmeath and Kildare and they are both Div3 again now after one or two seasons.
On the other hand Donegal went down and came straight back up. Down flip-flop between Div1 and Div2. The 2 favorites for relegation this year are Ros and Down (the same 2 that came up) The favorite for Div 2 is Tyrone who came outta Div1.
And after this elite competition is played and teams see the levels they need to be at they come along and destroy everything before them in terms of Div3 and Div4.
The bottom line is that this elite competition is seriously hurting the championship
But it's not and anyway Leitrim or Antrim won't improve by playing Dublin and Mayo, that's not how it works. None of the division 1 teams are winning because they are in division 1, they are winning because they are the best and any league format will make no difference to championship but what your proposing will make another competition a complete farce.
Elite competition is what inter county football is all about, club and underage inter county is where players and counties can develop. Once they get to senior inter county it should be dog eat dog. The only thing we need to do is pit big dogs against other big dogs in meaningful games more often.
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2016, 04:22:29 PM
But it's not and anyway Leitrim or Antrim won't improve by playing Dublin and Mayo, that's not how it works. None of the division 1 teams are winning because they are in division 1, they are winning because they are the best and any league format will make no difference to championship but what your proposing will make another competition a complete farce.
Elite competition is what inter county football is all about, club and underage inter county is where players and counties can develop. Once they get to senior inter county it should be dog eat dog. The only thing we need to do is pit big dogs against other big dogs in meaningful games more often.
You see the easy thing to do now is separate the Big Boys from the rest. True it will give the Big boys more meaningful games against each other every year. In fact it will create a mirror image of Hurling! And you see where Hurling is at? Eight to twelve teams playing top level. Four or five with a chance of winning the AI and Only one team really winning it year in year out. All the other competitions Rikard/Ring/Maher Mickey mouse Cups get little or now coverage or Interest. Who won those competitions last year?
Look, subconsciously the Quater-finals give us the same result anyway. But there is still something for the Fermanaghs (whose run to the QF and QF game was over rated) to aim for.
OK - keep your League format. But then you can't have your cake and eat it. I.e.
You can't have elite competitions all the way throughout the year and not have player burnout.
You can't have elite competitions all the way through the year without having professionalism come more and more into it.
You can't have elite competitions all the way through the year and every competiton having equal weight.
You can't have elite competitions all the way through the year and not end up going further down the road where
competitions are redundant becasue of worse and worse results and hammerings.
Something has to give and I thought that was the point of the thread.
Personally I would rather see the championship take precedence over the League as this is the way the GAA has always been run at all levels.
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 06, 2016, 04:45:45 PM
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2016, 04:22:29 PM
But it's not and anyway Leitrim or Antrim won't improve by playing Dublin and Mayo, that's not how it works. None of the division 1 teams are winning because they are in division 1, they are winning because they are the best and any league format will make no difference to championship but what your proposing will make another competition a complete farce.
Elite competition is what inter county football is all about, club and underage inter county is where players and counties can develop. Once they get to senior inter county it should be dog eat dog. The only thing we need to do is pit big dogs against other big dogs in meaningful games more often.
You see the easy thing to do now is separate the Big Boys from the rest. True it will give the Big boys more meaningful games against each other every year. In fact it will create a mirror image of Hurling! And you see where Hurling is at? Eight to twelve teams playing top level. Four or five with a chance of winning the AI and Only one team really winning it year in year out. All the other competitions Rikard/Ring/Maher Mickey mouse Cups get little or now coverage or Interest. Who won those competitions last year?
Look, subconsciously the Quater-finals give us the same result anyway. But there is still something for the Fermanaghs (whose run to the QF and QF game was over rated) to aim for.
But you're not separating them from the rest, or at least you don't have to.
Hurling has had some very good championships recently and the last time I checked a handful of football teams had most provincial and All Ireland titles.
I'm not advocating anyone being excluded from competing for Sam, I'm advocating getting rid of the provincials and upgrading the leagues. In doing so you give Fermanagh much more to play for.
Quote from: Nihilist on January 06, 2016, 04:46:56 PM
OK - keep your League format. But then you can't have your cake and eat it. I.e.
You can't have elite competitions all the way throughout the year and not have player burnout.
You can't have elite competitions all the way through the year without having professionalism come more and more into it.
You can't have elite competitions all the way through the year and every competiton having equal weight.
You can't have elite competitions all the way through the year and not end up going further down the road where
competitions are redundant becasue of worse and worse results and hammerings.
Something has to give and I thought that was the point of the thread.
Personally I would rather see the championship take precedence over the League as this is the way the GAA has always been run at all levels.
Why can't you?
American football has a 4 month intense season and then 2 month play off season, yet it's grown into America's most popular sport. Why can't we have an intense 5-6 month IC season where meaningful games come thick and fast and most teams have something to play for for most of the year?
That would leave the other half of the year for club games and there's no reason why the latter part of the IC season couldn't overlap with the start of most club seasons so building in a 6 week closed season would be possible too.
Some sensible decisions and some difficult changes would transform our calendar for the better IMO.
I believe the current NFL format is partially responsible for the gap between the top four or five sides and the rest during the championship the last few years. Any possible NFL shake up in years head or are HQ going to stick with current stale format which includes the silliness of semi finals for a group eight and division two,three,four titles that few care about.
Really, why and what difference would an alternative way of running the leagues achieve ? We had the same craic in the hurling with Liam Dunne being particularly many about it and nobody seemingly wanting to get relegated yet didn't Clare win the AllIreland from div 2?
IMO senior IC should be about intense competition with teams of similar ability playing each other more often. If a county is developing good young players then they will be able to progress through the ranks to take on the big boys when (if) they are ready. Do that and we have a sensible, progressive season that is fair to all and allows clubs time to play. Try, as we are at the moment, to be all things to all men and we'll continue to struggle in a mess of our own making.
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2016, 03:28:34 PM
You may enjoy it but surely you'd enjoy it more if you were meeting the top teams in real meaningful games every two weeks while Carlow also had something meaningful to win and a pathway to closing the gap on the likes of Meath or Kildare, if not Dublin.
Agree to an extent. Dublin didn't play either Donegal or Tyrone last year in the championship, and they would have been great to see in that they would have provided vastly different tests to the Mayo and Kerry matches. Similary we didn't get a Kerry v Mayo championship match last year, which also would have been great to see.
But..... if we were getting such games every 2 weeks, they wouldn't all be knockout, so you'd be lessening the intensity and value of those games. The beauty of the championship is that its knockout and you don't automatically get a right to play the team you want to play. But in the league teams who get promoted to Division 1 have earned the right to play all the other Division 1 teams. And with 4 qualifying for the semis and 2 getting relegated, it usually keeps it competitive for most teams right up to Week 7.
Carlow's pathway to closing the gap is also through the league. Their main priority should be something attainable - promotion from Division 4. Then maintain Division 3 status and go from there, etc.
I agree Hound and the main change I'd suggest is starting the league later and linking it to the championship to increase the importance of those league games. Liverpool v Man Utd. or Munster v Leinster aren't nothing games even when they're group or league games. Kerry v Dublin in a May league game where both teams are in peak condition, at full strength and genuinely trying to win (due to the effect it might have on their championship) would probably sellout Fitzgerald stadium or bring a huge crowd to Croke Park. We'd still get the knockout games between the big teams from QF stage on but we'd see much better and more meaningful action prior to that too.
Looks like the Tommy Murphy Cup is making a comeback for Div 4 teams beaten in their provincial championships. If they are bringing this back in they need to provide a carrot for the winners. I'd suggest no league final for Div 4, whoever is top after the 7 games is promoted and the second spot is filled by whoever wins the Tommy Murphy Cup. This should retain the interest and motivation for the other 7 teams after they lose their provincial game that wasn't really there before.
The winner of the proposed D4 Championship should be allowed into the race for Sam - ideally in the round before the Qtr Final.
Quote from: Rossfan on January 14, 2016, 01:20:15 PM
The winner of the proposed D4 Championship should be allowed into the race for Sam - ideally in the round before the Qtr Final.
Has to be something like that. The Division 4 teams went through this Tommy Murphy exclusion lark before and ran out of patience with it.
So it looks like they're going with a proposal that somewhere above 90% of inter-county players are opposed to?
Quote from: Rossfan on January 14, 2016, 01:20:15 PM
The winner of the proposed D4 Championship should be allowed into the race for Sam - ideally in the round before the Qtr Final.
Laughable that the only thing that all these proponents of change could come up with that could stick enough to be an official proposal is bringing back the Tommy Murphy Cup with the generous carrot of letting the winner into the Quailifers.. the next year.
Nonsense as usual but the only change the GAA could pass is f**king over the minnows of the sport so who knows. I for one hope we never end up back in D4 because you'd be constantly under the threat of being one and done in the championship. Backwards to say the least.
So Division 4 teams are trapped in Limbo? One (or two) of them gets to go into the AI Championship? The rest get to finish their season when ever they can no longer get promoted. This could be after 3 league games. So after 3 games, you could get intercounty players jumping ship and heading to America!
Welcome to GAA democracy. The Uachataran knows best. What a disastrous decision. No credit to Louth Manager who supports this. ONE Div 4 team will be ALLOWED dine at the top table. Unbelievable. The GAA should make an official statement that they have no interest on anything other than the 8/10 top teams and stop this sham.
Typical GAA fudge - bring ht winners of this mickey mouse comp back in at the QF stage. Taking their logic to it's conclusion shouldn't the teams who win through to the 2nd round and then lose have legit grounds for complaint?
Bulls***t.
Hope the Div 4 teams refuse to participate in this charade.
PS - were the Div 4 teams ever brought together and asked what they think of this suggestion?
Just like I suspected. Go around the houses setting wheels in motion and invite all manner of hard-fought and far-reaching solutions to be submitted, and then throw them all away because they don't have a strong enough conservative dimension or are just too 'radical' to be trusted. So you effectively not only wind up at a place you were more or less already at before you started, in fact you step backwards to something tried and failed on the past.
Meaningful change in a timely fashion is just impossible in the GAA.
The only meaningful change anybody should be focusing on the playing schedule. You can do everything in a far more effective manner than it is currently being done. Too many people focusing on pie in the sky change and trying to conflate fixing the schedule with miss-guided major changes to the senior football championship.
Misguided? The current debate and process, dead rubber though it has predictably turned out to be, was only happening in the first place because of widespread disenchantment with an imbalanced, iniquitous and yes, inefficiently run-off championship. It would improve things too if the running of it was streamlined, of course you're right, and club players got a fair crack, but there was a good opportunity here to ensure more clashes of top teams, maybe enhance the status of the league too, and it's being allowed to pass in favour of conservative reversion to the status quo, the main attraction of which is that it's safe, familiar and offends nobody even if it improves nothing either.
Can only imagine the proposal of changing the under 21 championship to under 20 and moving it to june/july will absolutely destroy the progress we are making in football. It will be on that the same time as under 21 hurling and unlike minor i cant see anyone being dual player at this level anymore. the way it is run off at the moment suits us perfectly because there is no crossover at all. To "hurling people" in the county we are at a massive crisis when it comes to minor dual players.....we reached two all irelands last year in both, to most this would be a brilliant achievement but because we lost both (mainly the hurling with an unfacied team) there has been a debate going through the winter and as i say alot of people feel it was a disastrous year!!! Hurling management of the minors last year told everyone at the start of the year they would have to choose, nobody could play both, the players told him if they were to be forced they would choose football, a quick u turn was made. I believe similar pressures are being put on this year, hopefully the players can stand up again
Until the provincial championships are dumped nothing will change.
How about something radical. All money given to Dublin etc goes to a central fund where it is redistributed favouring the weaker teams. Fans are already getting sick of the same 4 and Mayo calving every year.
Quote from: seafoid on January 17, 2016, 10:27:26 AM
Until the provincial championships are dumped nothing will change.
How about something radical. All money given to Dublin etc goes to a central fund where it is redistributed favouring the weaker teams. Fans are already getting sick of the same 4 and Mayo calving every year.
Calving?
Have any Counties passed motions on any other system to bring to Congress?
How many Qualifier games have D4 teams won against D1,2 or 3 teams since 2001 or in the last 5 years?
Quote from: cavanmaniac on January 17, 2016, 07:35:07 AM
Misguided? The current debate and process, dead rubber though it has predictably turned out to be, was only happening in the first place because of widespread disenchantment with an imbalanced, iniquitous and yes, inefficiently run-off championship. It would improve things too if the running of it was streamlined, of course you're right, and club players got a fair crack, but there was a good opportunity here to ensure more clashes of top teams, maybe enhance the status of the league too, and it's being allowed to pass in favour of conservative reversion to the status quo, the main attraction of which is that it's safe, familiar and offends nobody even if it improves nothing either.
I think it offend the 8 counties in Division 4. But they don't matter in the new commercial GAA. Death knell of inter county football in these counties - what player is going to bother hanging around for this fiasco?
There is some warped thinking in the GAA. A prime example is the decision to not give Wicklow or Laois home advantage for their Leinster Championship game, instead fixing it for Kilkenny..... If it is Laois, O Moore Park is more than capable of hosting the game.
Democracy me a***e.
Easily offended also in denial of reality .
have there been any decent proposals that retain the provincial championships with the einners straight to the AI Q/Fs?
If not is it not time to slaughter the sacred cow?
Unless you dump the provincial championships any alternative is most likely a waste of time. Why don't we use the minor and\or the U21 championship to road test some alternative formats that don't involve provincial championships? The only way to find out if an alternative format is better or worse is to give it a go. There is no reason why a sensible alternative format for the U21, for example, would devalue it and if we did it for a 3 year period you could actually assess whether it worked or not.
It's all very well to say get rid of the provincial championships, but for at least 25 of the 32 county teams that line up at the start of the year, winning their provincial championship is a big deal and a big motivation. That only means something because they know that everyone is trying to win it, and if they do come out on top, it'll mean something - it won't mean anything if it's quarantined off as a preseason competition at the start of the year.
Similarly, the attendances reflect this. Approximately 5,000 people attended Offaly vs Longford in O'Connor Park last May, despite the fact that the prize on offer for the winner was a sure fire hammering at the hands of Dublin. When Offaly played Kildare in the qualifiers (a team with nearly five times the population of Longford, nearly all within an hour's drive of Tullamore) the attendance was broadly the same. That's despite the fact that Offaly were coming in on the back of a win, and that the prospect of a deep run through the qualifiers was on offer for the winner - as evidenced by the fact that Kildare eventually got to Croke Park.
I had to laugh at the GPA proposals at the start of the year that suggested that their "champions league" style nonsense, that involved running off the provincial games like a blitz at the start of the year, would generate more revenue - because it was presuming that as many people would go to a Leinster SFC Final match between Meath and Dublin in April, with no connection to the All Ireland series, as would go to it in the height of July.
It's not just the provincial councils that like the provincial championships - supporters like them too. That has to count for something, surely?
I don't think it's true to say 25 odd teams have the provincial championships as a big motivation, yes it's a more realistic target for many but history proves few of any can genuinely win them.
There were 5000 at the Derry Tyrone McKenna cup game too but that shouldn't mean we can't consider that competitions value to our overall season.
Supporters will go to games when they know there are two teams at full strength really going for it.
But again, I'll ask the question, why can't we at least trial an IC U21 championship without the provincial championships? At least if we see a competition under a different format we can make some informed decisions. If we did that then we could see what the players and managements think of it, how supporters embrace it and if it is fairer to all teams.
Quote from: Zulu on January 17, 2016, 10:58:16 PM
I don't think it's true to say 25 odd teams have the provincial championships as a big motivation, yes it's a more realistic target for many but history proves few of any can genuinely win them.
Everyone cannot win every year, but since 1990 7 Ulster counties have won and another was within one kick of the ball of doing so.
Quote]But again, I'll ask the question, why can't we at least trial an IC U21 championship without the provincial championships? At least if we see a competition under a different format we can make some informed decisions. If we did that then we could see what the players and managements think of it, how supporters embrace it and if it is fairer to all teams.
Not a bad idea. An U21 format which involved more games might aggravate other concerns however.
Counties aren't foolish. They know that they have a far better relationship with their Provincial Council than with Croke Park. Far better chance of the Councils responding to counties than Commercial Park. That's a big factor. The Provincial Councils are more connected to grass roots.
Just reading this on RTE this morning and I'm wondering if I/we misunderstand the proposal or whether RTE have it wrong.
The link is below but the bit I'm referring to is "And while the proposed new B Championship offers a prize of automatic entry to the football qualifiers for the winner, will that carrot be enough to ensure competitive fare and will sides be able to keep their players interested after a provincial exit?"
Are they saying that the winner of the B Championship re-enters the A championship in the current year? If so then I think it makes the proposal a lot more attractive.
I wonder is it just getting close to the time where we bite the bullet, and separate the club and county scenes completely. Make the County managers pick a squad of 30 at the start of the year, maybe in February, and for the rest of the year, the County plays league and championship through to August/September, and the Clubs just play away in their own League and Championship in parallel. Effectively run the club scene like a Minor League, with controls as to how injured county players are replaced during the year.
I realise this is a bollix for the Clubs, especially if you have 3 or 4 county men, but you rarely see these lads during the year anyway, and maybe a coach/manager would love to be able to work at club level with a consistent squad of players and a guaranteed calendar which ran through the good months of the year. You could even try play the All Ireland Club championship in October.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 18, 2016, 10:35:04 AM
I wonder is it just getting close to the time where we bite the bullet, and separate the club and county scenes completely. Make the County managers pick a squad of 30 at the start of the year, maybe in February, and for the rest of the year, the County plays league and championship through to August/September, and the Clubs just play away in their own League and Championship in parallel. Effectively run the club scene like a Minor League, with controls as to how injured county players are replaced during the year.
I realise this is a bollix for the Clubs, especially if you have 3 or 4 county men, but you rarely see these lads during the year anyway, and maybe a coach/manager would love to be able to work at club level with a consistent squad of players and a guaranteed calendar which ran through the good months of the year. You could even try play the All Ireland Club championship in October.
AZ
Perhaps this is part of the " end game " that you talked about earlier ?. Where there is separation and county players can't play league but could play championship later in the year. That in my opinion would require some form of contract / enhanced payment. I wouldn't rule it out. And as you say there are advantages but only if you don't have 3/4 men from the club on that 30.
I think it may be orangeman. I certainly think the GPA feel that divide exists anyway, hence their own existence. I'm not trying to suggest they don't care about their clubs, I know most of them are probably great club men when they can be with the club. But it does feel like a logical extension.
If you split the club and county entirely, then you have far greater latitude (says Ger Canning) to modify Championship structures in both levels to give the regular games, fixed calendar, competitive layers, etc etc.
If we don't do something about the demands on players, then I think this will be proposed at some stage.
Quote from: orangeman on January 18, 2016, 10:42:53 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 18, 2016, 10:35:04 AM
I wonder is it just getting close to the time where we bite the bullet, and separate the club and county scenes completely. Make the County managers pick a squad of 30 at the start of the year, maybe in February, and for the rest of the year, the County plays league and championship through to August/September, and the Clubs just play away in their own League and Championship in parallel. Effectively run the club scene like a Minor League, with controls as to how injured county players are replaced during the year.
I realise this is a bollix for the Clubs, especially if you have 3 or 4 county men, but you rarely see these lads during the year anyway, and maybe a coach/manager would love to be able to work at club level with a consistent squad of players and a guaranteed calendar which ran through the good months of the year. You could even try play the All Ireland Club championship in October.
AZ
Perhaps this is part of the " end game " that you talked about earlier ?. Where there is separation and county players can't play league but could play championship later in the year. That in my opinion would require some form of contract / enhanced payment. I wouldn't rule it out. And as you say there are advantages but only if you don't have 3/4 men from the club on that 30.
I agree, this isn't a route you can go down in an amateur organisation - you can't bar someone from playing for the club they grew up play for just because they have made it on to the county squad. I think that would not only harm the club scene but I think an increasing number of players might just choose to play with their clubs and not bother with the county.
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 18, 2016, 10:46:57 AM
Quote from: orangeman on January 18, 2016, 10:42:53 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 18, 2016, 10:35:04 AM
I wonder is it just getting close to the time where we bite the bullet, and separate the club and county scenes completely. Make the County managers pick a squad of 30 at the start of the year, maybe in February, and for the rest of the year, the County plays league and championship through to August/September, and the Clubs just play away in their own League and Championship in parallel. Effectively run the club scene like a Minor League, with controls as to how injured county players are replaced during the year.
I realise this is a bollix for the Clubs, especially if you have 3 or 4 county men, but you rarely see these lads during the year anyway, and maybe a coach/manager would love to be able to work at club level with a consistent squad of players and a guaranteed calendar which ran through the good months of the year. You could even try play the All Ireland Club championship in October.
AZ
Perhaps this is part of the " end game " that you talked about earlier ?. Where there is separation and county players can't play league but could play championship later in the year. That in my opinion would require some form of contract / enhanced payment. I wouldn't rule it out. And as you say there are advantages but only if you don't have 3/4 men from the club on that 30.
I agree, this isn't a route you can go down in an amateur organisation - you can't bar someone from playing for the club they grew up play for just because they have made it on to the county squad. I think that would not only harm the club scene but I think an increasing number of players might just choose to play with their clubs and not bother with the county.
That may well happen alright, which obviously wouldn't harm the club team. It might just find its own level after a while though.
Don't get me wrong, this is not something I'd like to see. I think club players should be able to play with the county, and their clubs. But if the demands are so excessive, then something radical is going to have to happen. Maybe it will be something like what heffo suggests on the GPA thread, but if it's not something like that, it will have to be something like this, or on these lines.
Do the Players Union still have a representative on Central Council, and if they do, where was their delegate last Saturday?
There are a number of realities:
The Inter county needs to be scaled back, not up.
The GPA exists only to promote the interests of inter county players and their best interest would be more high profile games leading to professional football. Not only os it not stated but they now claim the exact opposite; however their Championship proposal was completely at odds with he club game.
The Club player and the Club itself is penalised in the present competition structure.
The provincial championships are going no where.
The provincial councils, for whatever failings they have (perceived or real) are more in touch with grass roots than Corporate Park is or ever will be.
Solution
There is no perfect format.
The ideal format recognises the importance of the club.
The ideal format provides a fair structure that recognises the status of the counties; rewards success and provides realistic incentive to counties for improvement.
Provides sufficient attractive games to whet the appetite of the public.
Simple structures are better than convoluted qualifier rounds etc etc
The Carla proposal ticked a lot of those boxes except it came from a basement county and wasn't given sufficient airing in the media and wasn't taken seriously because it came from the bottom of Div 4.
It had a defined programme of games with definitive dates from round 1 to the All Ireland Final; it retains the provincials; it seeds teams to provide realistic opposition yet room to progress; a secondary competition could be run among the 16 defeated teams from rounds 1 and 2 (not confined to Div 4, entry based on results).
Far ahead of that revised Tommy Cooper Cup.....worth a trial period of a couple of seasons...
How many times has that lad contradicted himself.
And of course there's the standard hysteria about the GPA and paying players thrown in
Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on January 19, 2016, 08:15:30 PM
Do the Players Union still have a representative on Central Council, and if they do, where was their delegate last Saturday?
How many people on CC?
Does 1 GPA delegate's vote exceed all the others?
The GPA hysteria is getting worse by the hour!! :o
Like all other sporting codes such as Rugby, Soccer etc, Gaelic football has been entering into a new era of MONEY. Money has changed the game of Soccer in England, grass root football is diminishing. Most of the clubs have imported players from Europe, Africa, South America and Asia. The player pool to buy from is unlimited. Rugby although new to the Money game, is already picking up pace. New franchised clubs have been created in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Players are coming also from abroad, and the local smaller clubs are diminishing.
Money has changed the GAA and will continue to change it. There is nothing we can do. It's a machine and it willl make the Big Bigger and make the small smaller or just leave them in a static position. The survival in the future of the smaller counties will be amalgamation and Franchised clubs. There is no other solution if some one from these counties want to see their team competitive and worth following. We have gone to far down the Money road to start taking money off Dublin and the other Big guns.
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 19, 2016, 09:49:14 PM
Like all other sporting codes such as Rugby, Soccer etc, Gaelic football has been entering into a new era of MONEY. Money has changed the game of Soccer in England, grass root football is diminishing. Most of the clubs have imported players from Europe, Africa, South America and Asia. The player pool to buy from is unlimited. Rugby although new to the Money game, is already picking up pace. New franchised clubs have been created in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Players are coming also from abroad, and the local smaller clubs are diminishing.
Money has changed the GAA and will continue to change it. There is nothing we can do. It's a machine and it willl make the Big Bigger and make the small smaller or just leave them in a static position. The survival in the future of the smaller counties will be amalgamation and Franchised clubs. There is no other solution if some one from these counties want to see their team competitive and worth following. We have gone to far down the Money road to start taking money off Dublin and the other Big guns.
The GAA is owned by its members, perhaps the tide cannot be completely stopped but more can be done. There is a difference between the likes of Dublin who have an unequal allocation of resources and the likes of Kilkenny whose success may have attracted some money but is not based on that money.
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 19, 2016, 09:49:14 PM
Like all other sporting codes such as Rugby, Soccer etc, Gaelic football has been entering into a new era of MONEY. Money has changed the game of Soccer in England, grass root football is diminishing. Most of the clubs have imported players from Europe, Africa, South America and Asia. The player pool to buy from is unlimited. Rugby although new to the Money game, is already picking up pace. New franchised clubs have been created in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Players are coming also from abroad, and the local smaller clubs are diminishing.
Unfortunately in places like Kildare and the midlands Rugby is far from diminishing and is taking over from GAA clubs in some areas. This is mainly due to the way that they have logical competition structures in place and their facilities have improved dramatically thanks to Money granted by the IRFU.
Also in soccer in England grass roots isn't diminishing, the opposite in fact.
http://www.thefa.com/news/my-football/2015/jan/football-participation-on-rise
GPA saying players may boycott the new Div 4 Competition.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2016, 06:54:47 PM
GPA saying players may boycott the new Div 4 Competition.
They were saying that they would definitely boycott it.
QuoteCounty teams directly affected by the introduction of a B football championship have agreed unanimously that they will not participate in any new structure if this format is approved by Congress later this month.
Fill statement at the link
https://www.gaelicplayers.com/WhatsHappening/LatestNews/TabId/86/ArtMID/421/ArticleID/475/SFC-Proposals-for-GAA-Congress.aspx
Can't help think this is a serious blow to the GAA officials. It does beg the question did those who proposed the B championship structure ask any of the teams/players involved? Surely Congress won't be as daft as to go ahead and approve this?
I thought we were told all these players were only mad keen to play in a competition they could win.
Division 4 Counties May Reject Hope and Excitement
Aogán Ó Fearghail:
"And that's a proposal that will go before Central Council,"
"I believe it's a good one. I think it would offer a lot of hope and excitement for Counties in Division 4."
"Let's see what Central Council's view on that is."
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2016/0113/759946-gaa-president-new-champions-structure-division-4/
If the winners were let enter the race for Sam in the Round before the Quarter Finals it might have had some chance.....
I see the Add Stiùrthóir says in his report that if people don't vote for change at this Congress it's time to put all suggestions for change to bed.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 06, 2016, 01:00:03 PM
If the winners were let enter the race for Sam in the Round before the Quarter Finals it might have had some chance.....
I see the Add Stiùrthóir says in his report that if people don't vote for change at this Congress it's time to put all suggestions for change to bed.
the clamour for change dosent mean a bad idea should be accepted!
Our decision making has been poor for a while now. From the simple stupidity of Hawkeye in one ground /GPA in Cork park offices/ new National GAA Centre of excellence in Dublin / Over resourcing of Dublin/ Underresourcing of other counties, Lack of effort in Belfast, Fenway hurling classic, Overstaffing and beurocracy, €5 to take a 4 year old into Croke Park, the lack of a sensible rule book and discipline procedure, The pulverising of the club game, the club footballer and the club unit itself by taking it's fixtures schedules and stamping over them, taking the sponsors and money out of clubs, Within 10 years this will completely demoralise the club's membership base, the grassroots and ultimately leave the county game with thousands less travelling to games. Can we have a strategy first and leadership second please, because leadership are making a balls of this.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 06, 2016, 01:00:03 PM
If the winners were let enter the race for Sam in the Round before the Quarter Finals it might have had some chance.....
Putting teams back in the qualifiers is all very fine, but there is no reason to believe they can do well there and all it would mean is that one team would draw a soft draw, so affecting the course of the competition.
Quote from: armaghniac on February 06, 2016, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 06, 2016, 01:00:03 PM
If the winners were let enter the race for Sam in the Round before the Quarter Finals it might have had some chance.....
Putting teams back in the qualifiers is all very fine, but there is no reason to believe they can do well there and all it would mean is that one team would draw a soft draw, so affecting the course of the competition.
Would disagree. I think a concerted AI IFC campaign with guaranteed entry into say AI SFC round of 12, would liven up the AI championship. This would be the controversial bit, only Leinster and ulster winners get a guaranteed SFC qf place . The remaining 6 qf places are decided between the Munster & Connacht winners, the Leinster & ulster runners up, 3 A qualifiers and 1 B qualifier . With the Munster & Connacht winners & Leinster & ulster runners up having guaranteed home games. This would reward provincial winners/finalists. It would also redress the current provincial imbalance against Leinster & Ulster .
101 people in attendance for the Carlow Antrim game last week, at least with the GPA proposal a guaranteed home game against top 8 side every year might draw a crowd and promote interest in the games.