Plenty of footage (filmed ironically by nazis) on the beeb. It seems no matter how they tried the nazis just couldnt handle the ammount of jews that were arriving by truck and train. It was going nicely for them till they started exporting the service to france hungary austria and numerous other countries who availed of their services. They despite their german efficiency were over subscribed. This is how they ended up with 'survivors'! They needed the manpower to load bodies, recycle old clothes, did graves, sex workers etc etc.
Im finded it diffiicult to feel sorry for these poor people as they wail and cry on tv and hold up their tattoos.. I just keep thinking GAZA!!
If you are finding it difficult to feel sympathy for innocent jews who got caught up in the gears of the Nazi war machine, then you are displaying a psychopathic tendency. I'd worry about that.
Quote from: lawnseed on January 27, 2015, 12:20:51 PM
Plenty of footage (filmed ironically by nazis) on the beeb. It seems no matter how they tried the nazis just couldnt handle the ammount of jews that were arriving by truck and train. It was going nicely for them till they started exporting the service to france hungary austria and numerous other countries who availed of their services. They despite their german efficiency were over subscribed. This is how they ended up with 'survivors'! They needed the manpower to load bodies, recycle old clothes, did graves, sex workers etc etc.
Im finded it diffiicult to feel sorry for these poor people as they wail and cry on tv and hold up their tattoos.. I just keep thinking GAZA!!
This can't be serious post......really?
Think this is a new low for the board in all honesty.
Not sure of the point of your post Lawnseed.
Btw, I visited Auswitz a number of years ago and it was quite thought provoking. While I was there, a couple of bus loads of jews arrived and I have to say I was not impressed by their attitude. They would push you out of the way and walk all over you.
And finally, north Belfast has a fair number of jews and I know a couple of them. One day I was getting a bus into town and as I approached the bus stop I recognised one of my jewish friends waiting on the bus.
So I asked him "When is the next bus due?"
He stopped talking to me after that.
Bringing crassness to a new level, tho I think it's sociopathic tendencies that are on display.
And how anyone could could come onto a thread entitled thus and think it was a suitable forum for levity is beyond me.
I went to Auschwitz a few years ago. An evil place. Such a fucked up ideology.
One of the stories I read about it that really struck me was that of Lajos Schlinger, born in 1896 in Cluj in Romania. He was a Jewish doctor who used to be visited by a Bayer rep called Capesius. He was sent to Auschwitz in 1944 with his family. The man who met him on the ramp at Auschwitz was Capesius. He assured him that his wife would be taken care of. She was selected for immediate execution. The lies.
It's explained here in German :
http://www.auschwitz-prozess-frankfurt.de/index.php?id=65
The Germans only imprisoned a handful of the people who were involved in the death camp system. There was no justice for the dead.
Nobody wanted to talk about it after the war.
And Israel is still traumatised by it. And will be for many generations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7tupJRSi7M
The 'final solution' is probably at the root of all the issues in the middle east at the moment. From the Israeli dogmatic insistance that nothing like that will ever happen to them again, to the west's guilt ridden attempts to keep Israel in check and happy at the same time. It was a f**king tragedy and the world is still dealing with it today.
But to say you don't feel sympathy, or empathy, for the victims of the holocaust is psychopathic in my eyes. Of course I doubt (at least I hope so) that lawnseed really means that.
Quote from: lawnseed on January 27, 2015, 12:20:51 PM
Plenty of footage (filmed ironically by nazis) on the beeb. It seems no matter how they tried the nazis just couldnt handle the ammount of jews that were arriving by truck and train. It was going nicely for them till they started exporting the service to france hungary austria and numerous other countries who availed of their services. They despite their german efficiency were over subscribed. This is how they ended up with 'survivors'! They needed the manpower to load bodies, recycle old clothes, did graves, sex workers etc etc.
Im finded it diffiicult to feel sorry for these poor people as they wail and cry on tv and hold up their tattoos.. I just keep thinking GAZA!!
YYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Orior on January 27, 2015, 12:36:34 PM
Not sure of the point of your post Lawnseed.
Btw, I visited Auswitz a number of years ago and it was quite thought provoking. While I was there, a couple of bus loads of jews arrived and I have to say I was not impressed by their attitude. They would push you out of the way and walk all over you.
And finally, north Belfast has a fair number of jews and I know a couple of them. One day I was getting a bus into town and as I approached the bus stop I recognised one of my jewish friends waiting on the bus.
So I asked him "When is the next bus due?"
He stopped talking to me after that.
Is this a joke? If it isn't it's worse than Lawnseed's lame attempt at trolling because you're actually tarring a group based on anecdotes.
You ask yourself, how did it ever happen? You say to yourself, it could never happen again, at least not in the civilised and cultured EU. As chilling as it was, I also find it disturbing that there are people still alive that somehow survived the camps to give witness to what occurred there, that's how really close it is to us. It seems so long ago, like a different aeon, yet it wasn't so far away at all.
I wonder did all those on the trains (not just Jews - gypsies, homosexuals, clergy, Slavs, enemies of the state) have any idea of the fate in store for them. They would have put up more resistance if they had, I'd say.
Raoul Wallenberg was one of the great lesser-sung heroes of WWII.
I saw a nice video the other day about an English guy, Sir something Winston, who arranged for a pile of jewish children to get out of the czech republic in 1939. He was set up by Esther Rantzen to be surrounded in an audience by those children, 50 years later. I think something got in my eye.
Apologies, his name was Nicholas Winton and this is the show. And of course it was czechoslovakia back then!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_nFuJAF5F0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_nFuJAF5F0)
Quote from: lawnseed on January 27, 2015, 12:20:51 PM
Plenty of footage (filmed ironically by nazis) on the beeb. It seems no matter how they tried the nazis just couldnt handle the ammount of jews that were arriving by truck and train. It was going nicely for them till they started exporting the service to france hungary austria and numerous other countries who availed of their services. They despite their german efficiency were over subscribed. This is how they ended up with 'survivors'! They needed the manpower to load bodies, recycle old clothes, did graves, sex workers etc etc.
Im finded it diffiicult to feel sorry for these poor people as they wail and cry on tv and hold up their tattoos.. I just keep thinking GAZA!!
I find it rather weird to say the least that you have difficulty comprehending that people who were caught in a genocide 70 years ago had absolutely nothing to do with other atrocities committed continuously since the state of Israel came into being.
On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?
I'd read somewhere it was based on the Rothschilds doing the dirt on Germany in WW1 when they went into agreement with the British via the Balfour accord to help the British get the Yanks onside as at that point the Germans were winning and the Yanks didn't give a toss?
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?
From being an evil, cruel and stupid piece of shit.
Quote from: deiseach on January 27, 2015, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?
From being an evil, cruel and stupid piece of shit.
That's being a little simplistic, why vent all this mostly on the Jews? He put a huge bit of resource into it all the same!
I'm not denying he wasn't all of those things you mention.
Quote from: lawnseed on January 27, 2015, 12:20:51 PM
Plenty of footage (filmed ironically by nazis) on the beeb. It seems no matter how they tried the nazis just couldnt handle the ammount of jews that were arriving by truck and train. It was going nicely for them till they started exporting the service to france hungary austria and numerous other countries who availed of their services. They despite their german efficiency were over subscribed. This is how they ended up with 'survivors'! They needed the manpower to load bodies, recycle old clothes, did graves, sex workers etc etc.
Im finded it diffiicult to feel sorry for these poor people as they wail and cry on tv and hold up their tattoos.. I just keep thinking GAZA!!
Whoa!!
So European holocaust victims share responsibility for the policies of a Middle Eastern state which had not even been created?
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 27, 2015, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?
From being an evil, cruel and stupid piece of shit.
That's being a little simplistic, why vent all this mostly on the Jews? He put a huge bit of resource into it all the same!
I'm not denying he wasn't all of those things you mention.
Hitler couldn't have done it all on his own. (Though he supposedly contracted syphilis from a Jewish prostitute, which may have influenced his actions.) How did a whole regime morph into a extremist genocidal machine? There were loads more of a similar mind who found refuge among the Nazi cadres.
Quote from: mouview on January 27, 2015, 02:42:48 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 27, 2015, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?
From being an evil, cruel and stupid piece of shit.
That's being a little simplistic, why vent all this mostly on the Jews? He put a huge bit of resource into it all the same!
I'm not denying he wasn't all of those things you mention.
Hitler couldn't have done it all on his own. (Though he supposedly contracted syphilis from a Jewish prostitute, which may have influenced his actions.) How did a whole regime morph into a extremist genocidal machine? There were loads more of a similar mind who found refuge among the Nazi cadres.
fuckin hell, he gassed a few million Jews because he caught syphillis off a Jewish prostitute!!
What I take from Lawnseed's post is the Irony that a people who were the victims of a Nazi policy of Lebensraum or the policy of Living Space and it now seems the Policy of Israel.
Quote from: mouview on January 27, 2015, 02:42:48 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 27, 2015, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?
From being an evil, cruel and stupid piece of shit.
That's being a little simplistic, why vent all this mostly on the Jews? He put a huge bit of resource into it all the same!
I'm not denying he wasn't all of those things you mention.
Hitler couldn't have done it all on his own. (Though he supposedly contracted syphilis from a Jewish prostitute, which may have influenced his actions.) How did a whole regime morph into a extremist genocidal machine? There were loads more of a similar mind who found refuge among the Nazi cadres.
Jews had been persecuted and vilified long before Hitler put down his paint brush. It was in the air, all the Nazis did was manifest it into its' most horrible form.
Quote from: Denn Forever on January 27, 2015, 02:57:20 PM
What I take from Lawnseed's post is the Irony that a people who were the victims of a Nazi policy of Lebensraum or the policy of Living Space and it now seems the Policy of Israel.
Yes, obviously that's what he's getting at. But he says he finds it hard to have sympathy for the victims as they cry and hold up their tattoos. That is strange to begin with. And then to seemingly link directly those people to the policy makers in Jerusalem is disingenous in the extreme.
Plenty of us have drawn parallels, or referred to the irony, of a state which should have deep memories of injustice and oppression carrying out an oppressive campaign against another hopelessly overmatched group.
that does not mean you cannot feel sympathy for the victims of the holocaust, and horror that it unfolded in the first place.
Quote from: mouview on January 27, 2015, 02:42:48 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 27, 2015, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?
From being an evil, cruel and stupid piece of shit.
That's being a little simplistic, why vent all this mostly on the Jews? He put a huge bit of resource into it all the same!
I'm not denying he wasn't all of those things you mention.
Hitler couldn't have done it all on his own. (Though he supposedly contracted syphilis from a Jewish prostitute, which may have influenced his actions.) How did a whole regime morph into a extremist genocidal machine? There were loads more of a similar mind who found refuge among the Nazi cadres.
It wasn't just the Nazis. A lot of Europeans were very happy to shunt the Jews off to the Middle East.
It suited the Zionists too. It is a very depressing story.
Quote from: Syferus on January 27, 2015, 01:36:52 PM
Quote from: Orior on January 27, 2015, 12:36:34 PM
Btw, I visited Auswitz a number of years ago and it was quite thought provoking. While I was there, a couple of bus loads of jews arrived and I have to say I was not impressed by their attitude. They would push you out of the way and walk all over you.
Is this a joke? If it isn't it's worse than Lawnseed's lame attempt at trolling because you're actually tarring a group based on anecdotes.
No, its true. A couple of other visitors were disgusted at their behaviour. I didnt intend to tar the whole Israel tribe, and it purely is an anecdotal story.
By the way, has anyone ever asked why? Why did Hitler hate the Jews? Why did the Germans/Nazi'z hate the Jews? Why has that attitude been around in Europe for 1,000 years or more?
I'm not endorsing what the Nazi's did - I'm just interested in why and root cause.
The lesson of the holocaust is that the veneer of civilisation is very thin. The Millman experiment corroborates that view.
Just as the Germans committed atrocities because they could get away with it, it's no surprise that the Israelis as a state oppress the Palestinians for the same reason. A scorpion stings you because he can. What we need to understand is that any nation (our own included) or group of people has it in them to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities if they figure they can get away with it.
That's why the criminalisation of holocaust denial is justifiable, even at the expense of the right to free speech. We must never forget, never mind deny. Eternal vigilance is not just the price of freedom. It is a necessity for civilisation.
Quote from: Orior on January 27, 2015, 03:22:51 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 27, 2015, 01:36:52 PM
Quote from: Orior on January 27, 2015, 12:36:34 PM
Btw, I visited Auswitz a number of years ago and it was quite thought provoking. While I was there, a couple of bus loads of jews arrived and I have to say I was not impressed by their attitude. They would push you out of the way and walk all over you.
Is this a joke? If it isn't it's worse than Lawnseed's lame attempt at trolling because you're actually tarring a group based on anecdotes.
No, its true. A couple of other visitors were disgusted at their behaviour. I didnt intend to tar the whole Israel tribe, and it purely is an anecdotal story.
By the way, has anyone ever asked why? Why did Hitler hate the Jews? Why did the Germans/Nazi'z hate the Jews? Why has that attitude been around in Europe for 1,000 years or more?
I'm not endorsing what the Nazi's did - I'm just interested in why and root cause.
Religious minorities , women and sexual minorities tend to get shafted when society enters crisis situations. CF Iraq now where the Sunni turn on the Yazidis, ISIS drive their women into slavery and Afghanstan where gay people are murdered.
Other well off minorities who are/were periodically targeted are Chinese in Indonesia , Lebanese in West Africa , Greeks around the Med.
Human nature can be diabolical and the Germans industrialised it.
Quote from: Orior on January 27, 2015, 03:22:51 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 27, 2015, 01:36:52 PM
Quote from: Orior on January 27, 2015, 12:36:34 PM
Btw, I visited Auswitz a number of years ago and it was quite thought provoking. While I was there, a couple of bus loads of jews arrived and I have to say I was not impressed by their attitude. They would push you out of the way and walk all over you.
Is this a joke? If it isn't it's worse than Lawnseed's lame attempt at trolling because you're actually tarring a group based on anecdotes.
No, its true. A couple of other visitors were disgusted at their behaviour. I didnt intend to tar the whole Israel tribe, and it purely is an anecdotal story.
By the way, has anyone ever asked why? Why did Hitler hate the Jews? Why did the Germans/Nazi'z hate the Jews? Why has that attitude been around in Europe for 1,000 years or more?
I'm not endorsing what the Nazi's did - I'm just interested in why and root cause.
I did. Turns out Hitler is supposed to have gotten syphilis off a Jewish prostitute and that caused the holocaust.
Quote from: Hardy on January 27, 2015, 03:31:54 PM
The lesson of the holocaust is that the veneer of civilisation is very thin. The Millman experiment corroborates that view.
Just as the Germans committed atrocities because they could get away with it, it's no surprise that the Israelis as a state oppress the Palestinians for the same reason. A scorpion stings you because he can. What we need to understand is that any nation (our own included) or group of people has it in them to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities if they figure they can get away with it.
That's why the criminalisation of holocaust denial is justifiable, even at the expense of the right to free speech. We must never forget, never mind deny. Eternal vigilance is not just the price of freedom. It is a necessity for civilisation.
Well said - the more recent conflicts in Palestine and indeed the Balkans bear this out, sadly.
Quote from: Billys Boots on January 27, 2015, 04:33:07 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 27, 2015, 03:31:54 PM
The lesson of the holocaust is that the veneer of civilisation is very thin. The Millman experiment corroborates that view.
Just as the Germans committed atrocities because they could get away with it, it's no surprise that the Israelis as a state oppress the Palestinians for the same reason. A scorpion stings you because he can. What we need to understand is that any nation (our own included) or group of people has it in them to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities if they figure they can get away with it.
That's why the criminalisation of holocaust denial is justifiable, even at the expense of the right to free speech. We must never forget, never mind deny. Eternal vigilance is not just the price of freedom. It is a necessity for civilisation.
Well said - the more recent conflicts in Palestine and indeed the Balkans bear this out, sadly.
Rwanda...
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 27, 2015, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?
From being an evil, cruel and stupid piece of shit.
That's being a little simplistic, why vent all this mostly on the Jews? He put a huge bit of resource into it all the same!
I'm not denying he wasn't all of those things you mention.
He had his reasons, such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The fact that those reasons were complete lies . . . evil, cruel and stupid. And a piece of shit.
Anti-semitism was all over this country not so long ago. It was one of the few things the religious leaders of Protestants and Catholics on this island agreed upon. But it appears to have been confined to the religious rather than political dogmas.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_Boycott (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_Boycott)
I should also mention that people like Daniel O'Connell and Michael Davitt strongly publicly supported the rights of Jews.
Lawnseed's (my autocorrect initially switched his name to 'lowness') post is a spectacular piece of crassness. The abominable actions of Netanyahu are no reason to insult the millions of innocent victims of the Holocaust.
But Lawnseed's post does show that the deeply ingrained views of some long dead religious leaders can still linger in some dark places on this island.
Also worth a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Ireland)
Evangelical Protestants such as Edward Nangle in Achill preached a strong hatred of Jews in the 1800s, but then he did the same for Catholics. Think Paisley, only with more venom.
But the local Catholic Leaders weren't much better.
When I saw the thread title I feared the worst but I'm glad to see lots of intelligent discussion here.
I visited Auschwitz myself a few years ago and it will stay with me forever. I'm glad I went but it was truly, truly awful. Really brings the horror of the whole thing home.
I don't think I could go.
The roots of antisemitism in Europe are so deep and tangled as to be almost indecipherable at this stage - but the primitive hatred of the "blood libel" (painting Jews as the killers of Christ) has been around ever since the Roman Empire became Christian. the fact that the Jews had been expelled from their traditional homeland (in various different epochs) led to them being considered foreign or "other" in many different countries (which probably leads to the fear in a lot of these twisted conspiracy theories of "internationalism"). And of course, there is the prominence of Jewish people within European banking, which stemmed from usury being considered a sin by the church in the Middle Ages. However, non-Christians were allowed lend money, and since these budding empires all needed credit to expand, Jews were actively encouraged to settle and begin banking. places like the bourse in Amsterdam were a direct result of Jewish financial innovation. The hypocritical ruling classes of these countries blamed the Jews for their success, initially confining them to ghettos, and then propagating horrible myths about them, which led to muck like the Protocols of Zion being published and believed. Throw in Germany losing the war, the collapse of the Weimar Republic, amid a global financial meltdown and all the tinderbox needed was a spark.
By the way, agree with AZ, though I don't think Lawnseed is actually pyschopathic - it's just very easy to hide behind a keyboard and snigger at the reaction you're undoubtedly trying to get in pretending to be so. Don;t let the fact that tonnes of these people's hair and teeth are still kept in situ at these camps, that there are still survivors and relatives of these people to whom this is a reality, not an exercise for trolling, that the Nazi bureaucratic killing machine was perhaps the purest ever manifestation of evil upon this earth - don't let that get in the way of your own enjoyment.
People seriously need to grow up.
That starting post by Lawnseed is a disgrace and makes me wonder what you have to do to be barred of here, seems to have crawled under a rock since his intital post.
I don't have much time for Israel policies or lack of to palestine but what happened in Auschwitz and the 5/6 or death camps was shocking and has been repeated in Rwanda, Cambodia, Srebrencia since.
Mans capacity to inflict slaughter on a global scale makes you wonder, we insult the rest of the species of this planet by calling them animals, sometimes you wonder who the real animals truly are!
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 27, 2015, 05:51:27 PM
When I saw the thread title I feared the worst but I'm glad to see lots of intelligent discussion here.
I visited Auschwitz myself a few years ago and it will stay with me forever. I'm glad I went but it was truly, truly awful. Really brings the horror of the whole thing home.
All the major death camps were on Slav territory in the East. Not in occupied France. The Nazis saw Slavs as vermin and the favour was returned in 1945.
France was far more civilised. the Nazis had standards in Western Europe, except in the Netherlands where they murdered most of the Jews.
Belzec and Majdanek were probably worse than Auschwitz but the Nazis destroyed them before the Red Army arrived.
Very disheartening post, lawnseed. I thought you were better than that. Would you feel the same if someone felt no empathy for the victims of the Famine simply because of the actions of the Provos?
NetanYahoo is a despicable weasel, but his policies have no bearing on the atrocities that befell Jews during the Holocaust.
Hardy is right about the thin veneer of civilization, and the Milgram experiment or the Stanford prison experiment show how perfectly "decent" people are capable of the most heinous acts.
I've seen some moving video of when victims of Khmer Rouge torture confronted their torturers, people who could be Everyman. Sadly, genocide is not an exclusively Nazi specialty. It abounds in human history--Russia, Armenia, Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan and on and on.
Not to feel for the victims is either callous or a sign that it so commonplace that we've become inured to it.
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2015, 07:19:53 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 27, 2015, 05:51:27 PM
When I saw the thread title I feared the worst but I'm glad to see lots of intelligent discussion here.
I visited Auschwitz myself a few years ago and it will stay with me forever. I'm glad I went but it was truly, truly awful. Really brings the horror of the whole thing home.
All the major death camps were on Slav territory in the East. Not in occupied France. The Nazis saw Slavs as vermin and the favour was returned in 1945.
France was far more civilised. the Nazis had standards in Western Europe, except in the Netherlands where they murdered most of the Jews.
Belzec and Majdanek were probably worse than Auschwitz but the Nazis destroyed them before the Red Army arrived.
I've been in Majdanek, where some of the camp remains as the Russians arrived before it was fully dismantled, although I am sad to see looking it up that some of it burned down in 2010.
This thread is unfortunate, the Nazis were a different order of magnitude from pretty much anyone, which does not excuse Gaza in any way.
Quote from: Oraisteach on January 27, 2015, 07:22:53 PM
Hardy is right about the thin veneer of civilization, and the Milgram experiment or the Stanford prison experiment show how perfectly "decent" people are capable of the most heinous acts.
Oops sorry - yes, Milgram experiment, not Millman.
Quote from: Hardy on January 27, 2015, 08:32:20 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on January 27, 2015, 07:22:53 PM
Hardy is right about the thin veneer of civilization, and the Milgram experiment or the Stanford prison experiment show how perfectly "decent" people are capable of the most heinous acts.
Oops sorry - yes, Milgram experiment, not Millman.
Heinous freudian slip.
Quote from: Oraisteach on January 27, 2015, 07:22:53 PM
Very disheartening post, lawnseed. I thought you were better than that. Would you feel the same if someone felt no empathy for the victims of the Famine simply because of the actions of the Provos?
NetanYahoo is a despicable weasel, but his policies have no bearing on the atrocities that befell Jews during the Holocaust.
Hardy is right about the thin veneer of civilization, and the Milgram experiment or the Stanford prison experiment show how perfectly "decent" people are capable of the most heinous acts.
I've seen some moving video of when victims of Khmer Rouge torture confronted their torturers, people who could be Everyman. Sadly, genocide is not an exclusively Nazi specialty. It abounds in human history--Russia, Armenia, Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan and on and on.
Not to feel for the victims is either callous or a sign that it so commonplace that we've become inured to it.
One of the main features of genocides is that it is extremely rare for anybody to be punished for them .
Because who wants to go back to the past? I mean, there was loads of Jewish property suddenly available and it would have been too complicated to go back and rake up the coals.
Quote from: armaghniac on January 27, 2015, 08:24:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2015, 07:19:53 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 27, 2015, 05:51:27 PM
When I saw the thread title I feared the worst but I'm glad to see lots of intelligent discussion here.
I visited Auschwitz myself a few years ago and it will stay with me forever. I'm glad I went but it was truly, truly awful. Really brings the horror of the whole thing home.
All the major death camps were on Slav territory in the East. Not in occupied France. The Nazis saw Slavs as vermin and the favour was returned in 1945.
France was far more civilised. the Nazis had standards in Western Europe, except in the Netherlands where they murdered most of the Jews.
Belzec and Majdanek were probably worse than Auschwitz but the Nazis destroyed them before the Red Army arrived.
I've been in Majdanek, where some of the camp remains as the Russians arrived before it was fully dismantled, although I am sad to see looking it up that some of it burned down in 2010.
This thread is unfortunate, the Nazis were a different order of magnitude from pretty much anyone, which does not excuse Gaza in any way.
Was sobibor the other one that they pulled down? Finkelstein's parents were in Majdanek.
I think only 50 people survived Sobibor
Israel doesn't mark today. They picked another date to go with their ideology.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/the-jewish-thinker/.premium-1.639209
"Ultimately, in 1951, Israel's Yom HaShoah (literally, Holocaust Day) was scheduled close to the anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. The choice of date was an attempt to focus on those who fought against the Nazis, rather than on those who never had that chance. Those who "went like sheep to the slaughter," as it was phrased in those days, were an embarrassment to the so-called "new Jews" of Israel. The official name of the new memorial day—Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Day—reflected this mindset: It was, in large part, a commemoration of the lucky few who had been able to fight, rather than the unfortunate majority. In effect, Israel's version of Holocaust memorial day was not a commemoration, but a denial of memory. "
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2015, 08:45:55 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 27, 2015, 08:24:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2015, 07:19:53 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 27, 2015, 05:51:27 PM
When I saw the thread title I feared the worst but I'm glad to see lots of intelligent discussion here.
I visited Auschwitz myself a few years ago and it will stay with me forever. I'm glad I went but it was truly, truly awful. Really brings the horror of the whole thing home.
All the major death camps were on Slav territory in the East. Not in occupied France. The Nazis saw Slavs as vermin and the favour was returned in 1945.
France was far more civilised. the Nazis had standards in Western Europe, except in the Netherlands where they murdered most of the Jews.
Belzec and Majdanek were probably worse than Auschwitz but the Nazis destroyed them before the Red Army arrived.
I've been in Majdanek, where some of the camp remains as the Russians arrived before it was fully dismantled, although I am sad to see looking it up that some of it burned down in 2010.
This thread is unfortunate, the Nazis were a different order of magnitude from pretty much anyone, which does not excuse Gaza in any way.
Was sobibor the other one that they pulled down? Finkelstein's parents were in Majdanek.
I think only 50 people survived Soafter
Sobibor had an escape which was featured in a film and 50 remained free until after the war. It was then completely removed so was never liberated.
We'll see how many of you visit gaza to see the handywork of the decendants of holocaust victoms.
And the nazis did it all emm.. ? Did they? How convienient for france hungary and the other nice countries who paid germany to disposive thier undesirables.
What we are seeing is the western picture of things britain and america blowing smoke while they suck up to israel and let the create their own little holocaust. Look what they did to boats carrying aid to their camp.
Britain and america were well aware of the death camps during ww2 just as they are aware of whats happening now. As mentioned before prosecutions for this are seldom seen through.
Im not denying the holocaust it happed before I was born. Gaza is now..
The bbc can have programme about camps on for hours but when the jewish state drops white sulphur on top of palistinins they must have done it themselves.
Im not aploigising for saying what I feel. Maybe in 70 years it'll be palastinians on the bbc holding candles but we dont need to wait 70 years its every day
Get help Lawnseed.
I'd say you lads are far too quick to blame this all on the Nazi's. The German people threw there full backing behind this shower of c***ts and stuck with them for the guts of 15 years. At least the bolsheviks had the excuse that they were a minority who seized power in a coup and held it by decades of red terror.
Nah the Germans threw their weight behind the Nazi ideology and the slaughter of the innocent and applied their trademark cold-blooded efficiency in the process. I for one will never forget the role they played in it and continue to view Merkel and her ilk with suspicion and contempt, now and forever. There are few comparable events in recent history where a people in such multitude disregarded the respect for human life of those around them. The Armenian genocide, destruction of the Native American nation and Irish famine aside, all other comparisons pale in significance of the scale of German culpability and even those 3 examples are going back the era's.
You just can't wash your hands of the murder of 4-5 million men, women and children and say "it wasn't me". That kind of slaughter stains your name for generations to come. It galls me to see the Germans run the EU nowadays and turn up their noses when we, the greeks or portugal don't pay our debts. Our national "shame" wouldn't even register compared to what they are guilty of and I only wish someone would tell that book-keeping, Oompa Loompa Angela Merkel that.
Quote from: seafoid on January 27, 2015, 07:19:53 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 27, 2015, 05:51:27 PM
When I saw the thread title I feared the worst but I'm glad to see lots of intelligent discussion here.
I visited Auschwitz myself a few years ago and it will stay with me forever. I'm glad I went but it was truly, truly awful. Really brings the horror of the whole thing home.
All the major death camps were on Slav territory in the East. Not in occupied France. The Nazis saw Slavs as vermin and the favour was returned in 1945.
France was far more civilised. the Nazis had standards in Western Europe, except in the Netherlands where they murdered most of the Jews.
Belzec and Majdanek were probably worse than Auschwitz but the Nazis destroyed them before the Red Army arrived.
Yes. WWII was ultimately about racism. The Nazi regime was dedicated to the propagation of Aryan ideals,
uber menschen. Slavic peoples to the east were sub-human and to be eliminated, enslaved or banished beyond the Urals, while new Germany would use all occupied land in between as room for national expansion. By and large they had no quarrel with nations to the west, and some regime leaders probably had a sneaking regard for Britain and it's then empirical structure. You'd often wonder how would the map of Europe look today had Britain and France not signed a pact with Poland.
This always touches;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chwDoQuD77g
This opening post has to be the worst thing I have ever read in my life I am glad people have reied to this. How can innocent Jewish people be responsible for the crimes that are happening upon the Palestinian people today? I normally am a joker on most posts, but this has severely sobered me. law seed throughout your posts on this forum you have supported Republican/socialist values; what you said flies in the face of your 'said' beliefs. How can the deaths of 6 million people so callously killed not touch your soul. Leave out Palestine for a minute. I am a huge supporter of The Palestinian people but this does not make me see what the Nazis did was horrendous.
I will leave you with this..... International communist/pro Palestinian siger/songwriter, David Rovics is my most favourite artist. He has wrote and recorded many songs about the suffering of minority people everywhere in the world, including a song about Francis Hughes ( named- Up the Provos). He wrote a song about the Jewish uprising in Warsaw. It tells the story of the minority oppressed people who fought back for three weeks against the Nazis. Here is the link. I would suggest you all listen to it.........
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sMCEZaMh77I (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sMCEZaMh77I)
Where would Stalin clock up in the genocide dept, by all accounts he was as bad as hitler even before WW2 kicked off, due to the aftermath of WW2 and the Iron Curtain no-one knows for sure the carnage he caused in the following years
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 28, 2015, 12:11:50 AM
Where would Stalin clock up in the genocide dept, by all accounts he was as bad as hitler even before WW2 kicked off, due to the aftermath of WW2 and the Iron Curtain no-one knows for sure the carnage he caused in the following years
Stalin was no communist. Very blood thirsty. Check out 'the purges' that got him to ultimate power
Aw yeah, pure bastard.
Call me what you want, but I just don't buy all the hype around these camps. Hitler gets syphilis from a Jewish prozzie and gasses millions? Don't make me laugh.
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in. Because they had the money to fund his wars. No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable.
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war. It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed. Why so touchy, eh? Says it all.
I think the OP is a clumsily worded attempt to draw a parallel between the holocaust during WWII and the current one that's been going on in Palestine ever since. Personally I find it sad that a people who were on the receiving end of one of the most shocking acts of mass murder in the twentieth century ended up turning into the same kind of monster that persecuted them. It's like how child abuse echoes through generations. Abusers were often abused themselves as children and it damages them mentally.
Look at the blood libel and the protocols of the elders of Zion. Then look at the reports of "human shields" in Gaza and the idea that the Palestinians want all Jews dead. These anti-Arab ideas are as widely accepted in respectable western circles today as the anti-semitic stuff was a hundred years ago. I look at the way Palestinians are portrayed in political cartoons today and cannot help but be reminded of the way Jews were portrayed in German papers in the 1930s.
Someone mentioned that the Germans of today, Merkel et al, should not be in charge of Europe because of WWII. I disagree. Modern Germany is a progressive, peaceful country. I'd like to think that people wouldn't judge the Ireland of today based on the Ireland of the 1950s, so I don't see why Germany should keep hanging its head in shame in all perpetuity over a chain of events that ultimately began in the nineteenth century. We don't seem to feel the same about Japan, another advanced peaceful country full of the most polite and inoffensive people you've ever met. Their neighbors probably feel different though.
On Hitler, there are nutjobs like him all the time and most of them end up staying in obscurity unless they live in America where you have a constitutionally protected right to acquire the mess to shoot up your school. The reason Hitler became so dangerous is because he was in the right place at the right time. He was a sociopath to begin with, completely lacking in empathy. He'd gotten the upbringing that taught him to hate Jews. He'd gotten desensitized to mass slaughter by his time in the trenches of WWI, and he survived the ordeal. He was rejected in his efforts to get into art school, which further fueled his resentment. He was as enraged as a lot of others about the central powers' treatment at the hands of the Treaty of Versailles. He got some practice at speaking at political meetings, and honed his oratory skills when he saw that his words were getting some people's attention. The ideas he espoused so eloquently tapped into a lot of ideas that were popular at the time, and hatred and anger are very easy emotions to exploit. He copied the "branding" and "marketing" tactics that had been perfected by the communists.
So was he alone responsible? Absolutely not. He just tapped into the zeitgeist. But what caused the zeitgeist? The pre-existing culture of anti-semitism mixed with the austerity of war reparations. There was also an absence of a lot of the international diplomatic bureaucracy that we take for granted today, so there weren't as many channels for settling international disputes peacefully. Germany and Austria were perfect breeding grounds for extremists. This is why the "bomb bomb bomb, bomb-bomb-Iran" crowd makes me so nervous.
The lesson which I hope we've all learned is that when a foe is defeated in war, there's no point in going on defeating them for all eternity. That's why there was no second Treaty of Versailles or post-war humiliation of the axis powers. Germany, Italy and Japan were to be re-built and their economies gotten back into business as a matter of priority. If only the same wisdom had prevailed after the Six Day War, or other conflicts for that matter.
The original post is sad and pathetic, wind up or not you should be ashamed of yourself. It begs the question does anyone police this board?
The victims of the Holocaust and the state of Isreal are completely unrelated, any attempt to link the two is nothing short of delusional.
Hang your head in shame lawnseed along with the rest of humanity for the fact that we are capable of such things.
https://www.facebook.com/michael.rosen.5496/posts/10152313325462225
Michael Rosen
April 22, 2014 •
I sometimes fear that people think that fascism arrives in fancy dress worn by grotesques and monsters as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis. Fascism arrives as your friend. It will restore your honour, make you feel proud, protect your house, give you a job, clean up the neighbourhood, remind you of how great you once were, clear out the venal and the corrupt, remove anything you feel is unlike you...It doesn't walk in saying, "Our programme means militias, mass imprisonments, transportations, war and persecution."
Quote from: omaghjoe on January 28, 2015, 04:50:03 AM
The original post is sad and pathetic, wind up or not you should be ashamed of yourself. It begs the question does anyone police this board?
The victims of the Holocaust and the state of Isreal are completely unrelated, any attempt to link the two is nothing short of delusional.
Hang your head in shame lawnseed along with the rest of humanity for the fact that we are capable of such things.
The victims of the Holocaust had nothing to do with Israel , Joe, but to say they are unrelated to Israel's framing of its conflict with the Palestinians is not correct.
Shabtai Teveth was the official biographer of David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first Prime Minister's and he wrote
'If there was a line in Ben-Gurion's mind between the beneficial disaster and an all-destroying catastrophe, it must have been a very fine one.'
The Holocaust industry is very real- it's the reason Israel is above international law.
Maybe Lawnseed was not particularly eloquent in the first post but he's hardly responsible for the evil in humanity.
Wars, even small local ones, lead to morality being suspended and the weakest targeted
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/paramilitaries-in-north-used-fear-to-sexually-exploit-children-1.2005420
WW2 didn't end on 8 august 1945 either. Germans were being murdered well into 1947 and over 2.5 million died after the official end of the war.
That's why Germany is so anti war now and England isn't. Germans lived total war right to its logical conclusion.
The Allies weren't a whole lot better than the Axis.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/After-Reich-Liberation-Vienna-Airlift/dp/0719567661/
A lot has been written about World War II, and some has even been written about the aftermath regarding the development of the Cold War. However, there is not a lot of published information giving an overall view of the occupation of Germany and the development of the divided country that lasted for 40 years. After the Reich, by Giles MacDonogh, rectifies that fact. It is heavily sourced, examining individual accounts as well as publications covering certain aspects of the occupation to give a broad overview of the horrors that developed and the neglect and outright savagery that caused the deaths of huge numbers of Germans in the aftermath of the war. MacDonogh gives a vivid yet very depressing picture showing that inhumanity was not limited to the Nazis.
Great post there Eamonca1.
A lot of other posts are just depressing, few people need to do some reading up and generally open their tiny minds.
Humanity can be really depressing
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/thousands-israeli-holocaust-survivors-struggle-poverty-n293391
"TEL AVIV, Israel — Hadasa Hershkovichi fled to Israel in search of a home after the Nazis murdered her entire family. "But while million-dollar apartments pop up throughout her Tel Aviv neighborhood, Hershkovichi lives in a shack originally built as a laundry room on the roof of a five-story building. "The cold winter wind is coming in through the windows so I shove newspapers around the edges to stop the wind coming in," said the Romanian-born Hershkovichi, who suffers from a combination of ailments that make it very hard for her to climb the stairs to her tiny apartment. "This is not the way for a human being to live," the 80-year-old said. "I only have a few more years to live and I want a proper home." "Hershkovichi is one of 190,000 Holocaust survivors residing in Israel today. She is also one of the 50,000 estimated to live below the poverty line, according to the Association for Immediate Help for Holocaust Survivors. Israel classifies a person as poor if they survive on around $600 or less a month. "I'm ashamed, I want to cry but crying doesn't help," Susan Rotem, a volunteer with the Association for Immediate Help for Holocaust Survivors, told NBC News. "It's hard to be old but it's very hard to be old, sick and lonely."
Quote from: muppet on January 28, 2015, 08:31:15 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2015, 04:15:46 AM
Look at the blood libel and the protocols of the elders of Zion.
Are you serious? Or are you deliberately just trying to incite the incredibly stupid or naive?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2015, 04:15:46 AM
Look at the blood libel and the protocols of the elders of Zion. Then look at the reports of "human shields" in Gaza and the idea that the Palestinians want all Jews dead. These anti-Arab ideas are as widely accepted in respectable western circles today as the anti-semitic stuff was a hundred years ago. I look at the way Palestinians are portrayed in political cartoons today and cannot help but be reminded of the way Jews were portrayed in German papers in the 1930s.
I'm sure Eamon will be able to speak for himself, but I think the point he was trying to get across that misinformation and downright lies were being propagated by the anti-Semites and Nazi's to portray the Jews as something sub human, akin to some of the propaganda put out by Tel Aviv in relation to the Palestinians using their children as shields etc, etc, so somehow lessening their extermination.
The very same tactic was used by the Rev Ian, so we should be well used to it by now.
Quote from: muppet on January 28, 2015, 08:31:15 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2015, 04:15:46 AM
Look at the blood libel and the protocols of the elders of Zion.
Are you serious? Or are you deliberately just trying to incite the incredibly stupid or naive?
Jesus calm down and read the whole f**king paragraph. It's clearly obvious that he's comparing pieces of propaganda. People love searching for something to upset them in posts on this forum.
Interesting feature about the Jewish community past in Belfast.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-31003098
Not sure why people are saying that lawnseed is making a clumsy attempt to draw a parallel between the holocaust and the suffering in gaza. I thought that was obvious. That same point has been made several times in other threads, and the terrible irony therein has been highlighted.
My problem is that he says he has no sympathy for the victims of the holocaust. That, to me, is a pretty disturbing point of view if it is really the way he thinks. And Benny, you say you don't get the 'hype' about these camps. Seriously? Almost 6 million Jews died in those camps. That's more than every man, woman and child in Ireland. A further 5 million other unfortunate people also died in those camps, and that was just as horrific. 11 million people, snuffed out like vermin, on an industrial scale. That's why they are such a big deal and there's so much hype.
Other atrocities are no less atrocious and do not need to be held up in comparison to make them atrocious. The Rwandan genocides, the purges in the Soviet Union under Stalin, the Khmer Rouge, the disregard for life that Israel displays when it levels the Gaza strip every time it feels like it. All of these are horrendous and can be condemned. And in all cases sympathy can be certainly felt for the poor unfortunates who are caught up in it through no fault of their own.
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:32:55 AM
Call me what you want, but I just don't buy all the hype around these camps. Hitler gets syphilis from a Jewish prozzie and gasses millions? Don't make me laugh.
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in. Because they had the money to fund his wars. No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable.
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war. It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed. Why so touchy, eh? Says it all.
What are you trying to say here?
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:32:55 AM
Call me what you want, but I just don't buy all the hype around these camps. Hitler gets syphilis from a Jewish prozzie and gasses millions? Don't make me laugh.
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in. Because they had the money to fund his wars. No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable.
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war. It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed. Why so touchy, eh? Says it all.
The more I read this post, the more bizarre it gets. Are you a holocaust denier Benny, or is it just the Jews you don't believe?
The opening post to this thread is a disgrace and I'm afraid if anyone is trying to give Lawnseed slight credibility for drawing parallels to Gaza etc, well all I can say is read some of the other shite he writes before giving him credibility. How can you justify/lplay down the slaughter of innocent people based on what their future ancestors would do 50 years later - just a bizarre rationale!
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 28, 2015, 11:48:12 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:32:55 AM
Call me what you want, but I just don't buy all the hype around these camps. Hitler gets syphilis from a Jewish prozzie and gasses millions? Don't make me laugh.
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in. Because they had the money to fund his wars. No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable.
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war. It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed. Why so touchy, eh? Says it all.
The more I read this post, the more bizarre it gets. Are you a holocaust denier Benny, or is it just the Jews you don't believe?
I cant believe its not getting more attention. Its far worse than Lawnseeds first post. Not only does he deny the Holocaust, but he says they deserved anything they got!
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable. Its a bizarre, dangerous thing to think
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 11:46:56 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:32:55 AM
Call me what you want, but I just don't buy all the hype around these camps. Hitler gets syphilis from a Jewish prozzie and gasses millions? Don't make me laugh.
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in. Because they had the money to fund his wars. No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable.
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war. It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed. Why so touchy, eh? Says it all.
What are you trying to say here?
Three Six million is the magic number
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=paNIlYasCvA
(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=paNIlYasCvA)
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 12:04:27 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 28, 2015, 11:48:12 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:32:55 AM
Call me what you want, but I just don't buy all the hype around these camps. Hitler gets syphilis from a Jewish prozzie and gasses millions? Don't make me laugh.
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in. Because they had the money to fund his wars. No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable.
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war. It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed. Why so touchy, eh? Says it all.
The more I read this post, the more bizarre it gets. Are you a holocaust denier Benny, or is it just the Jews you don't believe?
I cant believe its not getting more attention. Its far worse than Lawnseeds first post. Not only does he deny the Holocaust, but he says they deserved anything they got!
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war
No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable.
Its a bizarre, dangerous thing to think
Where did I say they deserved it? And where did I totally deny the holocaust?
I said lots of countries didn't trust them.
I suggest you read carefully before firing wild accusations.
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:24:06 PM
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 11:46:56 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:32:55 AM
Call me what you want, but I just don't buy all the hype around these camps. Hitler gets syphilis from a Jewish prozzie and gasses millions? Don't make me laugh.
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in. Because they had the money to fund his wars. No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable.
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war. It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed. Why so touchy, eh? Says it all.
What are you trying to say here?
Three Six million is the magic number
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=paNIlYasCvA
(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=paNIlYasCvA)
What's your point? I watched the first few minutes and it appears to be a tenous connection that reports of the suffering of Jews in 1915 is related to the holocaust because they used a similar number? Do you think they like the number 6 million or something?
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 28, 2015, 12:35:18 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:24:06 PM
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 11:46:56 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:32:55 AM
Call me what you want, but I just don't buy all the hype around these camps. Hitler gets syphilis from a Jewish prozzie and gasses millions? Don't make me laugh.
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in. Because they had the money to fund his wars. No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable.
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war. It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed. Why so touchy, eh? Says it all.
What are you trying to say here?
Three Six million is the magic number
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=paNIlYasCvA
(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=paNIlYasCvA)
What's your point? I watched the first few minutes and it appears to be a tenous connection that reports of the suffering of Jews in 1915 is related to the holocaust because they used a similar number? Do you think they like the number 6 million or something?
Yes, that's their magic number. Half the worlds Jews. Shocking figure etc etc. perfect excuse for the creation of the state of Israel helped by the Brits.
There's many references to 6 million in lots of Jewish text and history. Very complicated to explain but yes, 6 million has very important meanings.
Why throw people in jail for even joking that 6,000,001 Jews died in holocaust? Sounds like they don't want people thinking otherwise.
Quote from: omaghjoe on January 28, 2015, 04:50:03 AM
The original post is sad and pathetic, wind up or not you should be ashamed of yourself. It begs the question does anyone police this board?
The victims of the Holocaust and the state of Isreal are completely unrelated, any attempt to link the two is nothing short of delusional.
Hang your head in shame lawnseed along with the rest of humanity for the fact that we are capable of such things.
Oh excuse me.. Did I say white sulphar tut tut I meant white phosphorous.. The complexisies of carrying out modern day geonicide google it'd fix any tatts you might want rid of
A lot of people have isues with the way Israel behaves towards Palestine, myself included. But to deny the Holocaust or think that the Jews deserved to be punished is borderline deranged. Why? Maybe the Irish deserved the famine, good enough for them, sure they were banned in Britain!
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in.
So fuckin what?
It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed.
What ALL does that say? What is the point you are tryin to make with that?
Call me what you want,
You are one mental bollox
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:24:06 PM
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 11:46:56 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:32:55 AM
Call me what you want, but I just don't buy all the hype around these camps. Hitler gets syphilis from a Jewish prozzie and gasses millions? Don't make me laugh.
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in. Because they had the money to fund his wars. No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable.
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war. It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed. Why so touchy, eh? Says it all.
What are you trying to say here?
Three Six million is the magic number
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=paNIlYasCvA
(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=paNIlYasCvA)
Ah no, I have ya now Benny, you are on the wind up. Fair enough, I shouldn't have took the bait. Sure no right minded person would believe that shite.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 28, 2015, 11:51:54 AM
The opening post to this thread is a disgrace and I'm afraid if anyone is trying to give Lawnseed slight credibility for drawing parallels to Gaza etc, well all I can say is read some of the other shite he writes before giving him credibility. How can you justify/lplay down the slaughter of innocent people based on what their future ancestors would do 50 years later - just a bizarre rationale!
If your right. If? Where is the compassion for ones fellow human being in the modern day jewish state or in their allies britain and america. 6 million people sent to their deaths.. I dont here the survivors appealing for compassion for palestinian children. I quote one of them from bbc news "please never let this be forgotten" sobs "never let it happen again" what tv does he watch??
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 01:08:33 PM
A lot of people have isues with the way Israel behaves towards Palestine, myself included. But to deny the Holocaust or think that the Jews deserved to be punished is borderline deranged. Why? Maybe the Irish deserved the famine, good enough for them, sure they were banned in Britain!
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in.
So fuckin what?
It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed.
What ALL does that say? What is the point you are tryin to make with that?
Call me what you want,
You are one mental bollox
I know this always happens . Theres someone who cant read the thread or cant be arsed. Go back and re-read the posts your refering to slowly stop and breathe wait for brain to catch up.. Moooohh
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 01:08:33 PM
A lot of people have isues with the way Israel behaves towards Palestine, myself included. But to deny the Holocaust or think that the Jews deserved to be punished is borderline deranged. Why? Maybe the Irish deserved the famine, good enough for them, sure they were banned in Britain!
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in.
So fuckin what?
It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed.
What ALL does that say? What is the point you are tryin to make with that?
Call me what you want,
You are one mental bollox
Lol. I can see there's no point trying you argue with you
Quote from: lawnseed on January 28, 2015, 01:12:50 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 28, 2015, 11:51:54 AM
The opening post to this thread is a disgrace and I'm afraid if anyone is trying to give Lawnseed slight credibility for drawing parallels to Gaza etc, well all I can say is read some of the other shite he writes before giving him credibility. How can you justify/lplay down ent people based on what their future ancestors would do 50 years later - just a bizarre rationale!
If your right. If? Where is the compassion for ones fellow human being in the modern day jewish state or in their allies britain and america. 6 million people sent to their deaths.. I dont here the survivors appealing for compassion for palestinian children. I quote one of them from bbc news "please never let this be forgotten" sobs "never let it happen again" what tv does he watch??
Nobody is saying that whats happening in Gaza is OK. Not all Jews are Israelis. Not all jews support what Israel is doing. You dont hear survivors of the Holocaust appealing for compassion for palestinian children because they weren't asked about that, they were there to remember what happened to THEM and their families. Where is the logic in what you are saying?
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 01:20:56 PM
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 01:08:33 PM
A lot of people have isues with the way Israel behaves towards Palestine, myself included. But to deny the Holocaust or think that the Jews deserved to be punished is borderline deranged. Why? Maybe the Irish deserved the famine, good enough for them, sure they were banned in Britain!
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in.
So fuckin what?
It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed.
What ALL does that say? What is the point you are tryin to make with that?
Call me what you want,
You are one mental bollox
Lol. I can see there's no point trying you argue with you
Argue away, answer my question. What does the fact that Holocaust denial is illegal in some countries say?
I'm always bemused at how those who deny the Holocaust are the same people who like the idea of exterminating the Jews.
Quote from: lawnseed on January 28, 2015, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 01:08:33 PM
A lot of people have isues with the way Israel behaves towards Palestine, myself included. But to deny the Holocaust or think that the Jews deserved to be punished is borderline deranged. Why? Maybe the Irish deserved the famine, good enough for them, sure they were banned in Britain!
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in.
So fuckin what?
It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed.
What ALL does that say? What is the point you are tryin to make with that?
Call me what you want,
You are one mental bollox
I know this always happens . Theres someone who cant read the thread or cant be arsed. Go back and re-read the posts your refering to slowly stop and breathe wait for brain to catch up.. Moooohh
Great rebuttal, genius.
Lawnseed, I have read the entire thread. What have I misquoted or taken out of context? He has openly said that the figure of 6 million killed was not true and was made up for PR purposes. He also said that Jews were banned from Britain and rightly so.
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:32:55 AM
Call me what you want, but I just don't buy all the hype around these camps. Hitler gets syphilis from a Jewish prozzie and gasses millions? Don't make me laugh.
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in. Because they had the money to fund his wars. No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable.
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war. It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed. Why so touchy, eh? Says it all.
Lawnseed, would you agree with what Benny said in that post? What is it you think I dont understand about it?
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 01:32:20 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 01:20:56 PM
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 01:08:33 PM
A lot of people have isues with the way Israel behaves towards Palestine, myself included. But to deny the Holocaust or think that the Jews deserved to be punished is borderline deranged. Why? Maybe the Irish deserved the famine, good enough for them, sure they were banned in Britain!
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in.
So fuckin what?
It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed.
What ALL does that say? What is the point you are tryin to make with that?
Call me what you want,
You are one mental bollox
Lol. I can see there's no point trying you argue with you
Argue away, answer my question. What does the fact that Holocaust denial is illegal in some countries say?
Isn't it obvious? Because they don't want it to be doubted. You can say stuff about collusion in the North, 9/11 etc. some people might call you a nut but you can have an opinion on it without being jailed. Jailing deniers gets rid of people thinking for themselves. You'll believe what we tell you! Whenever they go to that extreme, anyone with half a brain surely must think something just doesn't add up here.
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 01:36:39 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on January 28, 2015, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 01:08:33 PM
A lot of people have isues with the way Israel behaves towards Palestine, myself included. But to deny the Holocaust or think that the Jews deserved to be punished is borderline deranged. Why? Maybe the Irish deserved the famine, good enough for them, sure they were banned in Britain!
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in.
So fuckin what?
It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed.
What ALL does that say? What is the point you are tryin to make with that?
Call me what you want,
You are one mental bollox
I know this always happens . Theres someone who cant read the thread or cant be arsed. Go back and re-read the posts your refering to slowly stop and breathe wait for brain to catch up.. Moooohh
Great rebuttal, genius.
Lawnseed, I have read the entire thread. What have I misquoted or taken out of context? He has openly said that the figure of 6 million killed was not true and was made up for PR purposes. He also said that Jews were banned from Britain and rightly so.
And where did I say "and rightly so"?
I was paraphrasing, it apears to be implied when you said Considering their antics, that's understandable.
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 01:45:27 PM
I was paraphrasing, it apears to be implied when you said Considering their antics, that's understandable.
And you called a man with no hair "baldy", and he punched you in the nose, I could understand why he did it. Don't mean I would agree with it. There's a difference.
Quote from: deiseach on January 28, 2015, 01:33:03 PM
I'm always bemused at how those who deny the Holocaust are the same people who like the idea of exterminating the Jews.
The biggest threat to the future of the Jewish religion is intermarriage with people of other religions.
They are very inflexible about recognising the children of such unions as Jews. The Parsis have the same problem.
And most intermarriage happens in the US where a lot of people have turned away from Zionism. It is very tricky.
There is no difference, it is the same thing. Thats exactly what understandable means in that context. And thats how it came across.
Benny, can you answer this question please?
Q. Do you believe that the genocide of approximately six million European Jews and millions of others during World War 2, carried out by the Nazi party, actually happened?
Jaysus, Old yeller, why are you bothering?
Quote from: deiseach on January 28, 2015, 02:28:26 PM
Jaysus, Old yeller, why are you bothering?
Ahh, maybe you're right. If he answers that question it will help clear things up
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 01:37:53 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:32:55 AM
Call me what you want, but I just don't buy all the hype around these camps. Hitler gets syphilis from a Jewish prozzie and gasses millions? Don't make me laugh.
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in. Because they had the money to fund his wars. No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable.
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war. It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed. Why so touchy, eh? Says it all.
Lawnseed, would you agree with what Benny said in that post? What is it you think I dont understand about it?
Firstly benny is correct. Jews are easily the most hated race since historical records began. And they have throughout the ages become a race with their own culture and even their own set of ailments peculiure to jews. Nobody here is denyiny what happened. Indeed one poster still holds persentday germans some how responsible for the sins of their father. Jews who fought in warsaw against nazis are heroes but palestinians who fight back are terrorists?. Im not taking anything away from holocaust survivers ive been to dachau its not pleasent. But I feel jews have worn out their sympathy card through their actions toward their fellow mid east neighbours. Thats not the fault of holocaust survivors more to do with butchers who the jews pick to lead them.
Read "hasbara" this will help to explain that whats going on is equally as evil and despicable as any vision hitler had for a super race and exposes how what the jewish state is doing is not randon or perchance. Its just different version of americas "manifest destiny"
Can we do anything? Maybe but we need to wake up. Remember the past? Yes!! Stand up to state sponsored genocide any way we can and try to see passed 'hasbara' and recognise the real evil.. America.
Quote from: lawnseed on January 28, 2015, 03:16:19 PM
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 01:37:53 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 12:32:55 AM
Call me what you want, but I just don't buy all the hype around these camps. Hitler gets syphilis from a Jewish prozzie and gasses millions? Don't make me laugh.
Jews were banned in Britain until King Billy invited them in. Because they had the money to fund his wars. No country trusted them, not just Hitler. Considering their antics, that's understandable.
The 6 million Jews figure was decided even before the war. It says it all when in some countries if you deny 6 million Jews died, you can be jailed. Why so touchy, eh? Says it all.
Lawnseed, would you agree with what Benny said in that post? What is it you think I dont understand about it?
Firstly benny is correct. Jews are easily the most hated race since historical records began. And they have throughout the ages become a race with their own culture and even their own set of ailments peculiure to jews. Nobody here is denyiny what happened. Indeed one poster still holds persentday germans some how responsible for the sins of their father. Jews who fought in warsaw against nazis are heroes but palestinians who fight back are terrorists?. Im not taking anything away from holocaust survivers ive been to dachau its not pleasent. But I feel jews have worn out their sympathy card through their actions toward their fellow mid east neighbours. Thats not the fault of holocaust survivors more to do with butchers who the jews pick to lead them.
Read "hasbara" this will help to explain that whats going on is equally as evil and despicable as any vision hitler had for a super race and exposes how what the jewish state is doing is not randon or perchance. Its just different version of americas "manifest destiny"
Can we do anything? Maybe but we need to wake up. Remember the past? Yes!! Stand up to state sponsored genocide any way we can and try to see passed 'hasbara' and recognise the real evil.. America.
This genuinely made me laugh I have to say, I wonder when we started keeping records on this? ;)
Lads, I don't know if ye are pulling the piss, or what, but I have to say it's disgraceful.
Lawnseed, you seem to be arguing against a position that doesn't exist. Practically every person that has posted on this thread has denounced the Israeli actions in Gaza. You seem to be unable to understand, or don't want to understand, that condemning the horrors of the holocaust does *NOT* mean you support Israel in Palestine.
You said at the very outset that you didn't feel sympathy for the victims, or survivors, of the holocaust on the grounds that Israel is perpetuating crimes in Gaza. I agree with the fact that Israel is commiting crimes in Gaza, which I condemn, but I don't see that that precludes me from feeling sympathy, revulsion and anger at the thoughts of what happened in Europe in the 30s and 40s.
Problems arise when people feel the need to equivocate, if topics were discussed on their own merits without equivocation & general whataboutery, there'd be a lot less Fuckwittery.
Quote from: trileacman on January 27, 2015, 11:32:52 PM
I'd say you lads are far too quick to blame this all on the Nazi's. The German people threw there full backing behind this shower of c***ts and stuck with them for the guts of 15 years. At least the bolsheviks had the excuse that they were a minority who seized power in a coup and held it by decades of red terror.
Nah the Germans threw their weight behind the Nazi ideology and the slaughter of the innocent and applied their trademark cold-blooded efficiency in the process. I for one will never forget the role they played in it and continue to view Merkel and her ilk with suspicion and contempt, now and forever. There are few comparable events in recent history where a people in such multitude disregarded the respect for human life of those around them. The Armenian genocide, destruction of the Native American nation and Irish famine aside, all other comparisons pale in significance of the scale of German culpability and even those 3 examples are going back the era's.
You just can't wash your hands of the murder of 4-5 million men, women and children and say "it wasn't me". That kind of slaughter stains your name for generations to come. It galls me to see the Germans run the EU nowadays and turn up their noses when we, the greeks or portugal don't pay our debts. Our national "shame" wouldn't even register compared to what they are guilty of and I only wish someone would tell that book-keeping, Oompa Loompa Angela Merkel that.
Don't know which is more embarrassing - the original posts and Benny's views or this.
Why the need to relate it to the famine? Or position the famine as a "super" genocide? Attempting to rank genocide is insane, but I can think of several instances in human history that have as high, if not higher, death counts than all of the above mentioned.
I feel jews have worn out their sympathy card through their actions toward their fellow mid east neighbours. Thats not the fault of holocaust survivors more to do with butchers who the jews pick to lead them.
Holy shit.
There are roughly 14/15 million Jews in the world. Israel is home to just over six. How has a Jew, living in Ireland let's say, who has never even been to Israel (like about half of all Jews in the world) and has no say about what goes on there, worn out their sympathy card?
Can you not see the madness of what you are saying?
Have the Dutch people who suffered during the Holocaust worn out the sympathy card due to their Boer cousins treatment of the blacks in South Africa?
Dalits in India are more despised than any other group I would say.
Upper castes abuse them 24/7.
If I had a time machine I'd head back to 1939 and warn the Jews. In the case of Lawnseed, he'd go back and tell them they deserve what they are going to get.
To summarise
Germans got pissed on after WWI. Hitler got into power.
German use humiliation as a means to use as propaganda.
Hitler got into power Pissed all over the Jews. Jews move on mass to Palestine.
The Jews got into power and pissed all over the Palestinians.
Jewish use humiliation as a means to use as propaganda.
Everybody deplores the loss of life and humiliation on the Jewish Community during WWI.
Everybody deplores the loss of life and humiliation on the Palestinian Community in Gazza.
Quote from: johnneycool on January 28, 2015, 09:24:50 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 28, 2015, 08:31:15 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2015, 04:15:46 AM
Look at the blood libel and the protocols of the elders of Zion.
Are you serious? Or are you deliberately just trying to incite the incredibly stupid or naive?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2015, 04:15:46 AM
Look at the blood libel and the protocols of the elders of Zion. Then look at the reports of "human shields" in Gaza and the idea that the Palestinians want all Jews dead. These anti-Arab ideas are as widely accepted in respectable western circles today as the anti-semitic stuff was a hundred years ago. I look at the way Palestinians are portrayed in political cartoons today and cannot help but be reminded of the way Jews were portrayed in German papers in the 1930s.
I'm sure Eamon will be able to speak for himself, but I think the point he was trying to get across that misinformation and downright lies were being propagated by the anti-Semites and Nazi's to portray the Jews as something sub human, akin to some of the propaganda put out by Tel Aviv in relation to the Palestinians using their children as shields etc, etc, so somehow lessening their extermination.
The very same tactic was used by the Rev Ian, so we should be well used to it by now.
Fair enough, I misread it as a continuation of the explanation of the disgraceful OP's clumsiness.
But I accept that wasn't what was meant.
Post deleted.
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 02:21:36 PM
Benny, can you answer this question please?
Q. Do you believe that the genocide of approximately six million European Jews and millions of others during World War 2, carried out by the Nazi party, actually happened?
Am I a holocaust denier, you mean? If I say something that goes against everything you've heard, them I suppose I'll be thrown in with them, along with those who see Elvis everyday. That's usually how it goes.
I'd imagine there were Jews murdered, as were other groups, but not on the scale which history books tell us. As for the gas chamber thing, I'm up in the air about that one. I've read stuff about these camps being work camps, and a lot of people died from exhaustion, malnutrition etc rather than being gassed. That's not to say some weren't gassed. But I don't know. But the 6 million, I don't buy it.
The thing is, it's easy to laugh off any alternative as nuts, but you really have to look at the bigger picture. Study the history of the Jewish race, their traits, discrimination, Nazi Germany, and what has happened since. Things like jailing deniers - you have to admit that sounds a bit fishy? History books, politicians, governments have lied to the people for centuries and still do. Just because it's in a book don't mean it's fact.
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 07:10:14 PM
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 02:21:36 PM
Benny, can you answer this question please?
Q. Do you believe that the genocide of approximately six million European Jews and millions of others during World War 2, carried out by the Nazi party, actually happened?
Am I a holocaust denier, you mean? If I say something that goes against everything you've heard, them I suppose I'll be thrown in with them, along with those who see Elvis everyday. That's usually how it goes.
I'd imagine there were Jews murdered, as were other groups, but not on the scale which history books tell us. As for the gas chamber thing, I'm up in the air about that one. I've read stuff about these camps being work camps, and a lot of people died from exhaustion, malnutrition etc rather than being gassed. That's not to say some weren't gassed. But I don't know. But the 6 million, I don't buy it.
The thing is, it's easy to laugh off any alternative as nuts, but you really have to look at the bigger picture. Study the history of the Jewish race, their traits, discrimination, Nazi Germany, and what has happened since. Things like jailing deniers - you have to admit that sounds a bit fishy? History books, politicians, governments have lied to the people for centuries and still do. Just because it's in a book don't mean it's fact.
We should probably move on to a less controversial line of questioning.
Please put the following in order starting with the nearest the centre:Moon, Earth, Sun, Mars, Mercury, Venus, Armagh, Tyrone, the middle.
Is the Earth shaped more like a cracker or a walnut?
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 27, 2015, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?
From being an evil, cruel and stupid piece of shit.
That's being a little simplistic, why vent all this mostly on the Jews? He put a huge bit of resource into it all the same!
I'm not denying he wasn't all of those things you mention.
Hitler had an agenda against the Jewish community because after WW1 when Germany was in ruin and dire poverty, he claimed they thrived while Germany starved. I'm sure one if a hundred reasons in his head.
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on January 28, 2015, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 27, 2015, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?
From being an evil, cruel and stupid piece of shit.
That's being a little simplistic, why vent all this mostly on the Jews? He put a huge bit of resource into it all the same!
I'm not denying he wasn't all of those things you mention.
Hitler had an agenda against the Jewish community because after WW1 when Germany was in ruin and dire poverty, he claimed they thrived while Germany starved. I'm sure one if a hundred reasons in his head.
Hitler didn't come up with that idea on his own. I think it was Hardy once posted an article that described how Jews moved into many communities in the Middle Ages and made money, much to the chagrin on the locals.
Good man Bennyharp, can you still see light out of that big hole you dug yourself into?
Get your Benny's right.
I presume there's a lot of wumming going on here? Serious lack of compassion if not
Quote from: Orior on January 28, 2015, 09:02:13 PM
Hitler didn't come up with that idea on his own. I think it was Hardy once posted an article that described how Jews moved into many communities in the Middle Ages and made money, much to the chagrin on the locals.
In the 8-11th centuries when the Jewish people were being persecuted in much of Christian Europe, the Moorish caliphate on the Iberian peninsula was considered a safe haven where Muslims, Jews and Christians were generally allowed to practice their faith in peace
I went to Auschwitz and seemed to be one of the few who didn't find it disturbing. I thought it was fascinating. Like going to Kilmainham Jail. A trip to a dog pound or a psychiatric hospital, or just seeing someone in a bad way would affect me because the suffering is current. Auschwitz is just a place of historical interest. I felt like there were a lot of crocodile tears being shed there.
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 07:10:14 PM
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 02:21:36 PM
Benny, can you answer this question please?
Q. Do you believe that the genocide of approximately six million European Jews and millions of others during World War 2, carried out by the Nazi party, actually happened?
Am I a holocaust denier, you mean? If I say something that goes against everything you've heard, them I suppose I'll be thrown in with them, along with those who see Elvis everyday. That's usually how it goes.
I'd imagine there were Jews murdered, as were other groups, but not on the scale which history books tell us. As for the gas chamber thing, I'm up in the air about that one. I've read stuff about these camps being work camps, and a lot of people died from exhaustion, malnutrition etc rather than being gassed. That's not to say some weren't gassed. But I don't know. But the 6 million, I don't buy it.
The thing is, it's easy to laugh off any alternative as nuts, but you really have to look at the bigger picture. Study the history of the Jewish race, their traits, discrimination, Nazi Germany, and what has happened since. Things like jailing deniers - you have to admit that sounds a bit fishy? History books, politicians, governments have lied to the people for centuries and still do. Just because it's in a book don't mean it's fact.
I read a book 'IBM and the Holocaust' which gets into the industrialization and scale of the process (the need for the Business Machines (early computers) to quantify the numbers of Jews, their movement and destruction. Also a good example of the amount of money US companies made out of trading with the Nazis right up until about 1942 or so, you don't hear much from them about that part.
If Lawnseed is making the following point then I agree with it. The problem is not with the holocaust victims' views on Israel. The problem is Israel's cynical use of the holocaust as a cover for its every action.
The fact that someone tried to wipe out the entire Jewish race makes it sound plausible that someone would again. Hence whenever someone criticizes Israel, it's the easiest thing in the world for zionist propagandists to brand that person an anti-semite. Low-information observers (of which there's plenty in America, even especially in Congress) will swallow that line quickly since it's easy to follow and presses all the right emotional buttons.
Take the famous quote from Mahmoud Ahmadinijad where he was said to have wished to "wipe Israel off the map." Couple that with a dodgy nuclear program and you've got yourself an instant Darth Vader character that fits beautifully into the simple "good v evil" worldview that appeals to the right. Even more educated people like Christopher Hitchens fell for that one. Problem is, it's not exactly what he said. In English we have this expression "to wipe x off the map" meaning "to actually destroy x." But that's actually a metaphor, and this metaphor doesn't exist in Farsi. A more accurate translation of what he said would have been "we want to re-draw the map" or words to that effect. The Treaty of Versailes might have "wiped the Austro-Hungarian Empire off the map" but that doesn't mean the whole thing was annihilated.
You have to hand it to the zionists. They're masters of spin and know how to manipulate public opinion in all the right places. I will now stand by and prepare to be branded an anti-semite.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 29, 2015, 02:20:37 AM
If Lawnseed is making the following point then I agree with it. The problem is not with the holocaust victims' views on Israel. The problem is Israel's cynical use of the holocaust as a cover for its every action.
The fact that someone tried to wipe out the entire Jewish race makes it sound plausible that someone would again. Hence whenever someone criticizes Israel, it's the easiest thing in the world for zionist propagandists to brand that person an anti-semite. Low-information observers (of which there's plenty in America, even especially in Congress) will swallow that line quickly since it's easy to follow and presses all the right emotional buttons.
Take the famous quote from Mahmoud Ahmadinijad where he was said to have wished to "wipe Israel off the map." Couple that with a dodgy nuclear program and you've got yourself an instant Darth Vader character that fits beautifully into the simple "good v evil" worldview that appeals to the right. Even more educated people like Christopher Hitchens fell for that one. Problem is, it's not exactly what he said. In English we have this expression "to wipe x off the map" meaning "to actually destroy x." But that's actually a metaphor, and this metaphor doesn't exist in Farsi. A more accurate translation of what he said would have been "we want to re-draw the map" or words to that effect. The Treaty of Versailes might have "wiped the Austro-Hungarian Empire off the map" but that doesn't mean the whole thing was annihilated.
You have to hand it to the zionists. They're masters of spin and know how to manipulate public opinion in all the right places. I will now stand by and prepare to be branded an anti-semite.
Of course I would agree with that point Eamonn and so would most people but that wasn't his point or anything near to his point
And he hasn't given any indication either in his OP or subsequent posts that this is what his point was. You are trying to defend his post by supposing he meant something else and running with. There by distracting from his actual point.
You should agree or disagree and stop trying to lead him into you reasonable train of thought, as he clearly is not reasonable. And stop trying to distract by talking about Iran and Israel's portrayal in the media. The only way Iran is relevant to this conversation is in the context of the 1940s when the last shah was coming to power. The only way Isreal is relevant is...well they aren't relevant because they didnt even exist!
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 07:10:14 PM
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 02:21:36 PM
Benny, can you answer this question please?
Q. Do you believe that the genocide of approximately six million European Jews and millions of others during World War 2, carried out by the Nazi party, actually happened?
Am I a holocaust denier, you mean? If I say something that goes against everything you've heard, them I suppose I'll be thrown in with them, along with those who see Elvis everyday. That's usually how it goes.
I'd imagine there were Jews murdered, as were other groups, but not on the scale which history books tell us. As for the gas chamber thing, I'm up in the air about that one. I've read stuff about these camps being work camps, and a lot of people died from exhaustion, malnutrition etc rather than being gassed. That's not to say some weren't gassed. But I don't know. But the 6 million, I don't buy it.
The thing is, it's easy to laugh off any alternative as nuts, but you really have to look at the bigger picture. Study the history of the Jewish race, their traits, discrimination, Nazi Germany, and what has happened since. Things like jailing deniers - you have to admit that sounds a bit fishy? History books, politicians, governments have lied to the people for centuries and still do. Just because it's in a book don't mean it's fact.
You have crossed the line into lala land now you do realize?
However you make a point and it is best be countered not by cat calling but by a reasonable approach
Really what you are taking about is how can you be sure of anything that occurred in the past. I will take you back to my first history lesson at school when we learned not about Irish or European history but how it actually got it us, and that is sourcing and evidence.
Almost everything we see and read about in the past and present is secondary or tertiary evidence. That is evidence that is either using a witness account or is considered fact from the overwhelming evidence that backs it up.
The levels of evidence go like this:
an eye witness seeing something and writes about it (primary evidence - witness diary).....
this written text is then used in a more general analytic way to depict the event usually using multiple primary sources (secondary evidence - history book)....
that secondary source along with other secondary sources are then brought together to form the basis of fact (tertiary evidence - encyclopedia).
Now granted we can
never be completely sure of anything that happened in the past, but our society uses this method of collecting evidence and analysis of this evidence using many different eye witness accounts along the analysis of many different historians to reduce the probability of events in the past being depicted inaccurately. Some events are disputed by different historians so these are not considered as fact rather as under dispute. However when there is enough evidence primary and secondary to support an event in the past it will be considered as fact and becomes tertiary evidence.
The Holocaust and WWII in general is one of the most studied events in history with acres of evidence collected from people that were actually there (survivors, guards, officers) and the events analysed and compiled by 1000s of historians. And one thing is for sure from it all and that is the death of approximately 6million people is considered fact by the historical community. Anything to the contrary is going against a massive amount of evidence and analysis of 1000s of historians.
On a side note I also think it a little strange that in this society (where you can seemingly say anything and defend its use by saying your were using your right of freedom of expression) that it is a crime for denying the Holocaust however that is nothing to base the fabrication of the Holocaust on.
To deny the Holocaust you would need to have pretty some good hardcore evidence as there is a mountain of it that says otherwise but I am all ears.....
Quote from: Orior on January 28, 2015, 09:02:13 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on January 28, 2015, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 27, 2015, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?
From being an evil, cruel and stupid piece of shit.
That's being a little simplistic, why vent all this mostly on the Jews? He put a huge bit of resource into it all the same!Quote from: Orior on January 28, 2015, 09:02:13 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on January 28, 2015, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 27, 2015, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 27, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?
From being an evil, cruel and stupid piece of shit.
That's being a little simplistic, why vent all this mostly on the Jews? He put a huge bit of resource into it all the same!
I'm not denying he wasn't all of those things you mention.
Hitler had an agenda against the Jewish community because after WW1 when Germany was in ruin and dire poverty, he claimed they thrived while Germany starved. I'm sure one if a hundred reasons in his head.
Hitler didn't come up with that idea on his own. I think it was Hardy once posted an article that described how Jews moved into many communities in the Middle Ages and made money, much to the chagrin on the locals.
I'm not denying he wasn't all of those things you mention.
Hitler had an agenda against the Jewish community because after WW1 when Germany was in ruin and dire poverty, he claimed they thrived while Germany starved. I'm sure one if a hundred reasons in his head.
Hitler didn't come up with that idea on his own. I think it was Hardy once posted an article that described how Jews moved into many communities in the Middle Ages and made money, much to the chagrin on the locals.
Not me, AFAIR.
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 07:10:14 PM
Quote from: Old yeller on January 28, 2015, 02:21:36 PM
Benny, can you answer this question please?
Q. Do you believe that the genocide of approximately six million European Jews and millions of others during World War 2, carried out by the Nazi party, actually happened?
Am I a holocaust denier, you mean? If I say something that goes against everything you've heard, them I suppose I'll be thrown in with them, along with those who see Elvis everyday. That's usually how it goes.
I'd imagine there were Jews murdered, as were other groups, but not on the scale which history books tell us. As for the gas chamber thing, I'm up in the air about that one. I've read stuff about these camps being work camps, and a lot of people died from exhaustion, malnutrition etc rather than being gassed. That's not to say some weren't gassed. But I don't know. But the 6 million, I don't buy it.
The thing is, it's easy to laugh off any alternative as nuts, but you really have to look at the bigger picture. Study the history of the Jewish race, their traits, discrimination, Nazi Germany, and what has happened since. Things like jailing deniers - you have to admit that sounds a bit fishy? History books, politicians, governments have lied to the people for centuries and still do. Just because it's in a book don't mean it's fact.
Holocaust denial is the act of denying the genocide of Jews in the Holocaust during World War II.[1][2] Holocaust denial includes any of the following claims: that the German Nazi government's Final Solution policy aimed only at deporting Jews from the Reich, and included no policy to exterminate Jews;
that Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers to mass murder Jews; and that the actual number of Jews killed was significantly (typically an order of magnitude) lower than the historically accepted figure of 5 to 6 million.[3][4][5]Im not asking you if you are a holocaust denier, I'm stating a fact. You are a holocaust denier.
Barmy f**kers.
Quote from: BennyCake on January 28, 2015, 07:10:14 PM
Study the history of the Jewish race, their traits, discrimination, Nazi Germany, and what has happened since.
(https://i.imgflip.com/gykwn.jpg)
I don't remember Willy Wonka saying that. Must have been one of the deleted scenes.
Quote from: Asal Mor on January 29, 2015, 11:45:09 AM
I don't remember Willy Wonka saying that. Must have been one of the deleted scenes.
Willie Wonka denial!
I'm not terribly interested in what Lawnseed is getting at or what he's thinking. I prefer to play the ball rather than the man.
And my point about Iran is very relevant. My point is about misunderstandings and "lost in translation" moments that can have big consequences. My point is about how the holocaust is often hijacked by zionists as a means of undermining Iran and potentially creating more problems. Hardly a "distraction." We're supposed to have learned from the holocaust, not use it as a trump card in political games.
I would highly recommend people watch this documentary, its six and half hours long though. We always hear the "allies" side of events but what about the German side? Nice to hear the other side so we can add more perspective.
http://youtu.be/Vnu5uW9No8g
Bad luck to all religious men, no matter what their cause.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 29, 2015, 08:45:35 PM
I'm not terribly interested in what Lawnseed is getting at or what he's thinking. I prefer to play the ball rather than the man.
And my point about Iran is very relevant. My point is about misunderstandings and "lost in translation" moments that can have big consequences. My point is about how the holocaust is often hijacked by zionists as a means of undermining Iran and potentially creating more problems. Hardly a "distraction." We're supposed to have learned from the holocaust, not use it as a trump card in political games.
TBF Eamonn in both of your posts on this thread you opened them by trying to explain away the OP
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2015, 04:15:46 AM
I think the OP is a clumsily worded attempt to draw a parallel between the holocaust during WWII and...
and
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 29, 2015, 02:20:37 AM
If Lawnseed is making the following point then I agree with it....
Its not that I am disagreeing with anything that you say Eamonn, on Israel Iran or anything else. Its just that its nothing to do with the holocaust and I don't understand how anyone could possibly think events of the present are relevant to the holocaust or their perception of the holocaust, it occurred 70 years ago was most likely the worst crime in human history. Of course an event like that is going to influence subsequent events in the future for a long while for both good and for bad, however those events cannot influence the events in the past. Therefore our opinion on them should not be of the present but from the time and place in which they occurred.
Quote from: omaghjoe on January 30, 2015, 03:32:51 AM
TBF Eamonn in both of your posts on this thread you opened them by trying to explain away the OP
Look, he obviously upset a lot of people, but there was a kernel of a reasonable point somewhere in his postings that I thought was worth salvaging.
QuoteIts not that I am disagreeing with anything that you say Eamonn, on Israel Iran or anything else. Its just that its nothing to do with the holocaust and I don't understand how anyone could possibly think events of the present are relevant to the holocaust or their perception of the holocaust, it occurred 70 years ago was most likely the worst crime in human history. Of course an event like that is going to influence subsequent events in the future for a long while for both good and for bad, however those events cannot influence the events in the past. Therefore our opinion on them should not be of the present but from the time and place in which they occurred.
I'm not disagreeing with any of this. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone in their right mind who would try to justify the holocaust or any other atrocity based on subsequent events. My point is that the only positive role the holocaust can play is as a warning to subsequent generations about what can happen when hatred is allowed to take control, and when an entire class of people is treated as a dehumanized inconvenient obstacle to be shoved out of the way and eliminated. And it's a supreme irony that the one nation that seems to have missed this lesson is the nation that owes its very existence to the holocaust.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2015, 06:35:00 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on January 30, 2015, 03:32:51 AM
TBF Eamonn in both of your posts on this thread you opened them by trying to explain away the OP
Look, he obviously upset a lot of people, but there was a kernel of a reasonable point somewhere in his postings that I thought was worth salvaging.
QuoteIts not that I am disagreeing with anything that you say Eamonn, on Israel Iran or anything else. Its just that its nothing to do with the holocaust and I don't understand how anyone could possibly think events of the present are relevant to the holocaust or their perception of the holocaust, it occurred 70 years ago was most likely the worst crime in human history. Of course an event like that is going to influence subsequent events in the future for a long while for both good and for bad, however those events cannot influence the events in the past. Therefore our opinion on them should not be of the present but from the time and place in which they occurred.
I'm not disagreeing with any of this. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone in their right mind who would try to justify the holocaust or any other atrocity based on subsequent events. My point is that the only positive role the holocaust can play is as a warning to subsequent generations about what can happen when hatred is allowed to take control, and when an entire class of people is treated as a dehumanized inconvenient obstacle to be shoved out of the way and eliminated. And it's a supreme irony that the one nation that seems to have missed this lesson is the nation that owes its very existence to the holocaust.
+1
Not all Jews were gassed at Auschwitz or the other camps. Many starved to death or died of disease in ghettoes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcd88TOwx5o&feature=related
Lawnseed links ww2 to Gaza and I would be very concerned about what Israel's long term plan for Gaza is. The
sewage system was destroyed a few years ago and the water quality is appalling. 80% of the people depend on UN rations.
People are dying of cold this winter. Where is it all heading ?
Anyone who thinks "never again" is deluded.
I think all of that is more or less universally accepted and agreed seafoid, at least on this board. The issue is when somebody says they have no sympathy for the victims, because of what Israel is doing now. I can't understand that point of view at all.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2015, 06:35:00 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on January 30, 2015, 03:32:51 AM
TBF Eamonn in both of your posts on this thread you opened them by trying to explain away the OP
Look, he obviously upset a lot of people, but there was a kernel of a reasonable point somewhere in his postings that I thought was worth salvaging.
No, there wasn't. It's partly because of the imbecilic attitudes of people like him that the danger of atrocity is ever-present. The unavoidable implication is that somehow the Jews deserve less sympathy than some or all other groupings of people. It was that attitiude, introduced by fanatical ideologues and embraced by the great unwashed, that led to the holocaust in the first place. It is precisely that attitude that needs to be the focus of our eternal vigilance so that every time it appears it is stamped out before it takes root.
Quote
QuoteIts not that I am disagreeing with anything that you say Eamonn, on Israel Iran or anything else. Its just that its nothing to do with the holocaust and I don't understand how anyone could possibly think events of the present are relevant to the holocaust or their perception of the holocaust, it occurred 70 years ago was most likely the worst crime in human history. Of course an event like that is going to influence subsequent events in the future for a long while for both good and for bad, however those events cannot influence the events in the past. Therefore our opinion on them should not be of the present but from the time and place in which they occurred.
I'm not disagreeing with any of this. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone in their right mind who would try to justify the holocaust or any other atrocity based on subsequent events. My point is that the only positive role the holocaust can play is as a warning to subsequent generations about what can happen when hatred is allowed to take control, and when an entire class of people is treated as a dehumanized inconvenient obstacle to be shoved out of the way and eliminated.
Exactly, and that's why lawnseed's post was so repugnant in suggesting that this particular group of people was less deserving of sympathy than some or all other groups. It's the first step to dehumanisation, which is the first step to justification of atrocity.
And I just want to note that Benny Cake's intervention was even more abhorrent.
Quote
And it's a supreme irony that the one nation that seems to have missed this lesson is the nation that owes its very existence to the holocaust.
Indeed. But that's a lot different to suggesting that the holocaust is retrospectively justified by the present day policies of the Israeli state.[Edit] I would rewrite your comment as follows:...it's a supreme irony that the one nation that seems to have missed this lesson is the nation that owes its very existence to the holocaust.
Quote from: seafoid on January 30, 2015, 09:04:42 AM
Not all Jews were gassed at Auschwitz or the other camps. Many starved to death or died of disease in ghettoes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcd88TOwx5o&feature=related
Lawnseed links ww2 to Gaza and I would be very concerned about what Israel's long term plan for Gaza is. The
sewage system was destroyed a few years ago and the water quality is appalling. 80% of the people depend on UN rations.
People are dying of cold this winter. Where is it all heading ?
Why are these ruminations posted on a thread about the holocaust?
Quote
Anyone who thinks "never again" is deluded.
Yes. That's why we need vigilance against casual demonisation of groupings, races or nationalities. Criticise Israeli policies because they are evil, not because of the nationality or religion of those who conceived them. I despair if we have missed the main lesson of the holocaust - that it was not the result of an evil intrinsic in Germans but a result of the potential for evil intrinsic in mankind and could happen anywhere in the appropriate conditions.
Hardy
do you think people now are more intelligent than those our age in the 30s? I don't. The potential for genocide is always there.
That's my point.
Quote from: Hardy on January 30, 2015, 10:24:59 AM
That's my point.
the thing is to keep society stable. That means controlling inequality and controlling rich people tearing the arse out of things.
The 1930s were the result of a major economic crash. It's not rocket science.
Quote from: seafoid on January 30, 2015, 10:27:11 AM
Quote from: Hardy on January 30, 2015, 10:24:59 AM
That's my point.
the thing is to keep society stable. That means controlling inequality and controlling rich people tearing the arse out of things.
The 1930s were the result of a major economic crash. It's not rocket science.
Not every crash led to a war, the depression was a contributing factor used by the Nazis tro demonise the Jews. Withour putting words in Hardys mouth we need to be vigilant becasue of the potential to demonise against entire groupings, whether it be Muslims or Israelis.
Quote from: seafoid on January 30, 2015, 10:12:31 AM
Hardy
do you think people now are more intelligent than those our age in the 30s? I don't. The potential for genocide is always there.
I wouldn't say we are any more intelligent now but we certainly have access to lot more information. I read somewhere that the average I.Q has risen every decade for the last hundred years or so and that someone with the average IQ 100 years ago would be considered retarded in todays levels!
I think it is possible for something like this to happen again, but, With modern rolling-news media, camera phones being everywhere, there isn't a chance that it could be happening without the rest of the world knowing about it and, you would hope, putting a stop to it.
Quote from: big balla on January 30, 2015, 11:29:03 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 30, 2015, 10:12:31 AM
Hardy
do you think people now are more intelligent than those our age in the 30s? I don't. The potential for genocide is always there.
I wouldn't say we are any more intelligent now but we certainly have access to lot more information. I read somewhere that the average I.Q has risen every decade for the last hundred years or so and that someone with the average IQ 100 years ago would be considered retarded in todays levels!
I think it is possible for something like this to happen again, but, With modern rolling-news media, camera phones being everywhere, there isn't a chance that it could be happening without the rest of the world knowing about it and, you would hope, putting a stop to it.
I think 5 million people have died in the war in
DR Congo since the 90s
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/apr/05/how-millions-have-been-dying-congo/
"Peter Eichstaedt's short book, Consuming the Congo: War and Conflict
Minerals in the World's Deadliest Place*, takes up the story where Jason Stearns leaves off. Eichstaedt, a formidable journalist and Africa expert, traces the whole grimy trail of exploitation. It begins with ragged villagers digging the gold, tin, or coltan (used in computers and cell phones), continues up through the militias who tax the diggers ruthlessly, on to the négociants who in turn sell to the comptoirs in the eastern Congo cities of Goma or Bukavu, who deliver the ore to international smelting corporations, mostly in Asia. So far efforts to smash this chain—which still finances the militias in their campaigns of mass rape and massacre—have been unsuccessful"
DRC has most of the world's coltan, without which smartphones can't operate.
And
Libya- that was a good war in 2011
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/26/human-rights-abuses-libyans-mental-health-problems-report
""Widespread and gross" human rights violations in Libya, including disappearances, arrests, torture and deaths, have left nearly a third of the population suffering from mental health problems as violence and lawlessness continues, according to a new report.
Research by Dignity – the Danish Institute against Torture – shared with the Guardian, paints a devastating picture of the human consequences of the regionalism, tribalism and factionalism that have wracked the north African country since the overthrow of Muammar Gaddafi three-and-a-half years ago.
"Libya has a practice of not seeking help for psychological problems, and the few trained psychologists and psychiatrists have very limited experience of treating trauma and consequences of torture and war," the report said.
"In addition, severe social stigma exists regarding those affected by mental illness. Psychiatric symptoms are attributed to the act of pagan symbols like the evil eye, magic or sorcery."
Ahlam Chemlali, one of the Dignity field workers, recalled how "videos of rape and torture were so widespread and popular that people would name characters from the videos, like the 'butcher from Misrata' or the 'rapist from Brega' as if they were actors playing in a horror snuff movie. Filmed torture seems to have been a consistent way of spreading or exposing fear."
The report recalls the exhilaration in Benghazi when the Libyan revolution began in February 2011 but concludes that both the short-term consequences of the internal conflict and the long-term legacy of 42 years of Gaddafi's rule remain unaddressed."
Libya has huge resources of light, sweet crude.
Rupert Murdoch etc are not going to tell you about this.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 30, 2015, 09:36:40 AM
I think all of that is more or less universally accepted and agreed seafoid, at least on this board. The issue is when somebody says they have no sympathy for the victims, because of what Israel is doing now. I can't understand that point of view at all.
It's because they're sick, twisted sociopaths with no concept of empathy or common humanity whatsoever. It's pretty depressing to realise this forum actually contains posters like that.
Lawnseed's comment about not having sympathy for the holocaust victims and survivors is repulsive. Of course it is. But that does not change the fact that the point about Gaza is a valid one. We should not be repeating history by dehumanizing and entire race and spreading unfounded rumours about them sacrificing their children in the name of Allah by using them as "human shields." That's a latter-day blood libel.
Everybody is in agreement with that eamonn. I don't really see any dissent there.
Quote from: easytiger95 on January 27, 2015, 06:39:36 PM
The roots of antisemitism in Europe are so deep and tangled as to be almost indecipherable at this stage - but the primitive hatred of the "blood libel" (painting Jews as the killers of Christ) has been around ever since the Roman Empire became Christian. the fact that the Jews had been expelled from their traditional homeland (in various different epochs) led to them being considered foreign or "other" in many different countries (which probably leads to the fear in a lot of these twisted conspiracy theories of "internationalism"). And of course, there is the prominence of Jewish people within European banking, which stemmed from usury being considered a sin by the church in the Middle Ages. However, non-Christians were allowed lend money, and since these budding empires all needed credit to expand, Jews were actively encouraged to settle and begin banking. places like the bourse in Amsterdam were a direct result of Jewish financial innovation. The hypocritical ruling classes of these countries blamed the Jews for their success, initially confining them to ghettos, and then propagating horrible myths about them, which led to muck like the Protocols of Zion being published and believed. Throw in Germany losing the war, the collapse of the Weimar Republic, amid a global financial meltdown and all the tinderbox needed was a spark.
By the way, agree with AZ, though I don't think Lawnseed is actually pyschopathic - it's just very easy to hide behind a keyboard and snigger at the reaction you're undoubtedly trying to get in pretending to be so. Don;t let the fact that tonnes of these people's hair and teeth are still kept in situ at these camps, that there are still survivors and relatives of these people to whom this is a reality, not an exercise for trolling, that the Nazi bureaucratic killing machine was perhaps the purest ever manifestation of evil upon this earth - don't let that get in the way of your own enjoyment.
People seriously need to grow up.
That's fairly interesting. Never could understand the hatred of the Jews. As a child playing games, to call someone a Jew was worse than a lot of derogatory terms.
Quote from: seafoid on January 30, 2015, 10:27:11 AM
Quote from: Hardy on January 30, 2015, 10:24:59 AM
That's my point.
the thing is to keep society stable. That means controlling inequality and controlling rich people tearing the arse out of things.
The 1930s were the result of a major economic crash. It's not rocket science.
To follow up on Hardys point, why are you ruminating on inequality and "controlling rich people" on a thread about the holocaust. Surely even you can see the obvious implication ?
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 31, 2015, 02:17:17 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 30, 2015, 10:27:11 AM
Quote from: Hardy on January 30, 2015, 10:24:59 AM
That's my point.
the thing is to keep society stable. That means controlling inequality and controlling rich people tearing the arse out of things.
The 1930s were the result of a major economic crash. It's not rocket science.
To follow up on Hardys point, why are you ruminating on inequality and "controlling rich people" on a thread about the holocaust. Surely even you can see the obvious implication ?
Uh-ho here we go...
Oh well we made it quite far this time considering the subject of the thread
OK Eamonn Hardy and all other sensible people on this board
I think we all agree that
- The holocaust was a dreadful crime probably the worst in history not just against Jews but against society, humankind, and God (if you still have the faith!)
- That we need to learn from it to ensure it never happens again (even tho it already has in Rwanda, Cambodia, Congo and a few attempts in Bosnia)
- That to use it as a justification (however slightly it is implied) for other crimes against humanity is repugnant and the worst memorial to those who died.
What we may disagree is the emphasis that we need to place on each. For example if someone said to me what do I think of the holocaust? My reply would be no.1 and only no.1
If someone asked Eamonn about the holocaust he might reply in a mixture of 1,2 and 3.
For me tho the danger in answering in 1,2 and 3 is that it may imply you have another agenda and that you perhaps don't think that it was that quite so bad, that implication might not be true or may not even be perceived at all, however I would never want my horror and revulsion to be mistaken or watered down on something like the Holocaust.
We just have different outlooks on it I suppose, none wrong as such.
I don't think the Holocaust was the worst ever. Mao killed over 10 million in peacetime as did Stalin.
Genghis Khan would be up there too.
Even the word Holocaust is difficult. It implies a religious purpose to the slaughter, as if the Nazis were doing god's will.
I hope some of the less empathetic posters on this thread have taken the opportunity to watch "Shoah" over the past few nights on BBC3. Tonight, they focused on the extermination of the Czech family camps within Auschwitz and the rising in the Warsaw Ghetto. Incrediby affecting still - and a rebuke to all on this thread who mess about with moral whataboutery.
Quote from: J70 on January 27, 2015, 04:49:57 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on January 27, 2015, 04:33:07 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 27, 2015, 03:31:54 PM
The lesson of the holocaust is that the veneer of civilisation is very thin. The Millman experiment corroborates that view.
Just as the Germans committed atrocities because they could get away with it, it's no surprise that the Israelis as a state oppress the Palestinians for the same reason. A scorpion stings you because he can. What we need to understand is that any nation (our own included) or group of people has it in them to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities if they figure they can get away with it.
That's why the criminalisation of holocaust denial is justifiable, even at the expense of the right to free speech. We must never forget, never mind deny. Eternal vigilance is not just the price of freedom. It is a necessity for civilisation.
Well said - the more recent conflicts in Palestine and indeed the Balkans bear this out, sadly.
Rwanda...
Please explain the relevance of ........ any sense of this statement
"the Germans committed atrocities because they could get away with it, it's no surprise that the Israelis as a state oppress the Palestinians for the same reason"Would that be similar to,
'the Germans committed atrocities because they could get away with it, it's no surprise that the ( insert a name) suppress the (insert a name) for the same reason'?
Considering that Stalin, Soviet communism, Pol Pot, Mao tse Tung, along with fascism in general, but Nazi fascism in particular, all are candidates for 'scum of the earth' (thank you arthur koestler), just how does the function of the Israeli state equate to the antics and atrocities of the scum of the earth?
Quote from: Main Street on February 02, 2015, 12:37:51 AM
Considering that Stalin, Soviet communism, Pol Pot, Mao tse Tung, along with fascism in general, but Nazi fascism in particular, all are candidates for 'scum of the earth' (thank you arthur koestler), just how does the function of the Israeli state equate to the antics and atrocities of the scum of the earth?
Their body count may not be as high, but you have to admit wiping an entire nation off the map and now trying to completely erase it from history is a pretty impressive piece of scum-of-the-earthery.
Quote from: Main Street on February 02, 2015, 12:37:51 AM
Quote from: J70 on January 27, 2015, 04:49:57 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on January 27, 2015, 04:33:07 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 27, 2015, 03:31:54 PM
The lesson of the holocaust is that the veneer of civilisation is very thin. The Millman experiment corroborates that view.
Just as the Germans committed atrocities because they could get away with it, it's no surprise that the Israelis as a state oppress the Palestinians for the same reason. A scorpion stings you because he can. What we need to understand is that any nation (our own included) or group of people has it in them to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities if they figure they can get away with it.
That's why the criminalisation of holocaust denial is justifiable, even at the expense of the right to free speech. We must never forget, never mind deny. Eternal vigilance is not just the price of freedom. It is a necessity for civilisation.
Well said - the more recent conflicts in Palestine and indeed the Balkans bear this out, sadly.
Rwanda...
Please explain the relevance of ........ any sense of this statement
"the Germans committed atrocities because they could get away with it, it's no surprise that the Israelis as a state oppress the Palestinians for the same reason"
Would that be similar to,
'the Germans committed atrocities because they could get away with it, it's no surprise that the ( insert a name) suppress the (insert a name) for the same reason'?
Considering that Stalin, Soviet communism, Pol Pot, Mao tse Tung, along with fascism in general, but Nazi fascism in particular, all are candidates for 'scum of the earth' (thank you arthur koestler), just how does the function of the Israeli state equate to the antics and atrocities of the scum of the earth?
I think you've managed to find the wrong end of the stick. I was taking lawnseed to task for suggesting that the modern day crimes of the Israeli state were somehow a retrospective justification for the Nazi massacre of Jews. That is the only reason I mentioned the Israelis as the example to quote to illustrate that the intrinsic propensity to commit evil is a human, not a national trait – a fact that should be the first lesson of the holocaust.
As for your request to explain how the "function" of the Israeli state, "equates" to the antics and atrocities of any group, I'm afraid I can't help, as I have no idea where you found such a suggestion.
The point is that the holocaust should teach us that victimisation of groups and categories of people comes easily to the human race - all of us as an intrinsic trait in our nature, as proven by psychological research - and can even extend to justifying their organised extermination, as long as we think we can get away with it.
Quote from: Hardy on February 02, 2015, 11:27:29 AM
Quote from: Main Street on February 02, 2015, 12:37:51 AM
Quote from: J70 on January 27, 2015, 04:49:57 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on January 27, 2015, 04:33:07 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 27, 2015, 03:31:54 PM
The lesson of the holocaust is that the veneer of civilisation is very thin. The Millman experiment corroborates that view.
Just as the Germans committed atrocities because they could get away with it, it's no surprise that the Israelis as a state oppress the Palestinians for the same reason. A scorpion stings you because he can. What we need to understand is that any nation (our own included) or group of people has it in them to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities if they figure they can get away with it.
That's why the criminalisation of holocaust denial is justifiable, even at the expense of the right to free speech. We must never forget, never mind deny. Eternal vigilance is not just the price of freedom. It is a necessity for civilisation.
Well said - the more recent conflicts in Palestine and indeed the Balkans bear this out, sadly.
Rwanda...
Please explain the relevance of ........ any sense of this statement
"the Germans committed atrocities because they could get away with it, it's no surprise that the Israelis as a state oppress the Palestinians for the same reason"
Would that be similar to,
'the Germans committed atrocities because they could get away with it, it's no surprise that the ( insert a name) suppress the (insert a name) for the same reason'?
Considering that Stalin, Soviet communism, Pol Pot, Mao tse Tung, along with fascism in general, but Nazi fascism in particular, all are candidates for 'scum of the earth' (thank you arthur koestler), just how does the function of the Israeli state equate to the antics and atrocities of the scum of the earth?
I think you've managed to find the wrong end of the stick. I was taking lawnseed to task for suggesting that the modern day crimes of the Israeli state were somehow a retrospective justification for the Nazi massacre of Jews. That is the only reason I mentioned the Israelis as the example to quote to illustrate that the intrinsic propensity to commit evil is a human, not a national trait – a fact that should be the first lesson of the holocaust.
As for your request to explain how the "function" of the Israeli state, "equates" to the antics and atrocities of any group, I'm afraid I can't help, as I have no idea where you found such a suggestion.
The point is that the holocaust should teach us that victimisation of groups and categories of people comes easily to the human race - all of us as an intrinsic trait in our nature, as proven by psychological research - and can even extend to justifying their organised extermination, as long as we think we can get away with it.
"The point is that the holocaust should teach us that victimisation of groups and categories of people comes easily to the human race - all of us as an intrinsic trait in our nature, as proven by psychological research - "
It is more or less guaranteed by war.
See the Yazidis in Iraq for example.
"Members of the Yazidi community, an ancient monotheistic religion rooted in Zoroastrianism, say they can never forgive those who helped Isis.
"They killed our men. If we could, we would kill theirs in return," says Ali Khalaf Qassem, a 70-year-old man with cracked feet and drooping eyebrows. He walked for days with his family to flee their village in Sinjar province.
They have joined 48 families that have taken over an unfinished building in the Kurdish city of Dohuk, hanging sheets along its concrete skeleton to create the illusion of separate rooms.
"We aren't safe anywhere. Iraq is like a fire. Now after the peshmerga fled, how do we know Kurdistan will protect us?," Mr Qassem asked. "We have to get to Europe."
For older Yazidis such as Mr Qassem, this was not their first expulsion. In the 1970s, under former ruler Saddam Hussein's "Arabisation" policy, minorities such as the Yazidis were moved across the country or rounded up into contained communities.
"I want to cry again for leaving behind our villages and holy places on the mountain," says Suleiman Kutti, a squat man with bushy white hair. "Without an international force here to protect us, we will keep facing this."
Iraq's Christians feel the same. "Iraq will be divided and our areas will become part of Kurdistan, which is fine. But if the world cannot protect us, it must help us leave," says Amira, a woman living with eight other families in a tiny classroom at the Mar Youkhana Church."
We need to teach kids about how awful war is.
Focusing on the Holocaust misses the point. WW2 was just an example of the system.
But it would be too hard to explain to them how our need for petrol outweighs other considerations.
I think you're missing the point Seafoid. Hitler's campaign against Jews was pointless - they weren't blocking lebensraum economically it cost the Reich huge amounts of treasure and foreign currency to actually organise the extermination (the Nazis weren't sitting on hoards of Jewish gold - on the contrary, the property and valuables of the Jews were meant to pay for the expense of theirr own deaths), they weren't in political control of any countries, economically their influence was far overstated by the Nazis. So unlike presentday Israel/Palestine which is essentially a struggle for territory and the control of it's inhabitants, or Rwanda which was a Civil war fought on ethnic lines, or Cambodia, which was spurred on by American aggression in the region and a twisted communist ideology in the jungles, or Mao and Stalins horrible modernisation and collectivisation programmes, the holocaust is probably the purest example of focused evil projected against a people, and probably the catastrophe that comes closest to fitting the definition of genocide - in that the destruction of the entirety of a people is the purpose, rather than a consequence of other actions.
Ask a Palestinian in Gaza today why what is happening to them, is happening and they would have a ready answer for you. The same with the Kulaks in 30s Soviet Russia, the same with the middle class in Year One Cambodia, the same with the Tutsi governing class in Rwanda.
The shocking thing about the Holocaust, besides the incredible planning and technological advances that it spurred, was the lack of reason, and the consequences that had for Jewish populations. They could not believe themselves that such terror would be levelled agaisnt them for no reason, which undoubtedly led to Jewish populations being easier to transport. The scale of the horror was such that in the Czech Family camp in Auschwitz, despite being told by other inmates who had seen the orders for their death be gassing within 48 hours, they could not believe the SS would kill the children that they had built a school for, and missed their chance to revolt. that was within Auschwitz itself - even in the centre of the vortex they could not understand the scale.
Externally, it also made it very difficult to convince the Allied powers that anything was going on - the stories were too outlandish. Even today, if you heard that Israel were shipping Palestinians by train to specially constructed factories, deliberately designed to slaughter them, after stripping them of any valuables and any bodily features construed as having value, despite everything we know of human nature, we would find it very difficult to believe. It is very difficult to conceive of any regime as blatantly as the Nazis legitimising mass murder ever again. there are of course different weapons, such as famine, deliberate neglect etc, yet i would argue that the world has not yet plumbed the moral depths that Nazi Germany did, despite the other genocides that have occurred since.
Quote from: easytiger95 on February 02, 2015, 12:50:15 PM
I think you're missing the point Seafoid. Hitler's campaign against Jews was pointless - they weren't blocking lebensraum economically it cost the Reich huge amounts of treasure and foreign currency to actually organise the extermination (the Nazis weren't sitting on hoards of Jewish gold - on the contrary, the property and valuables of the Jews were meant to pay for the expense of theirr own deaths), they weren't in political control of any countries, economically their influence was far overstated by the Nazis. So unlike presentday Israel/Palestine which is essentially a struggle for territory and the control of it's inhabitants, or Rwanda which was a Civil war fought on ethnic lines, or Cambodia, which was spurred on by American aggression in the region and a twisted communist ideology in the jungles, or Mao and Stalins horrible modernisation and collectivisation programmes, the holocaust is probably the purest example of focused evil projected against a people, and probably the catastrophe that comes closest to fitting the definition of genocide - in that the destruction of the entirety of a people is the purpose, rather than a consequence of other actions.
Ask a Palestinian in Gaza today why what is happening to them, is happening and they would have a ready answer for you. The same with the Kulaks in 30s Soviet Russia, the same with the middle class in Year One Cambodia, the same with the Tutsi governing class in Rwanda.
The shocking thing about the Holocaust, besides the incredible planning and technological advances that it spurred, was the lack of reason, and the consequences that had for Jewish populations. They could not believe themselves that such terror would be levelled agaisnt them for no reason, which undoubtedly led to Jewish populations being easier to transport. The scale of the horror was such that in the Czech Family camp in Auschwitz, despite being told by other inmates who had seen the orders for their death be gassing within 48 hours, they could not believe the SS would kill the children that they had built a school for, and missed their chance to revolt. that was within Auschwitz itself - even in the centre of the vortex they could not understand the scale.
Externally, it also made it very difficult to convince the Allied powers that anything was going on - the stories were too outlandish. Even today, if you heard that Israel were shipping Palestinians by train to specially constructed factories, deliberately designed to slaughter them, after stripping them of any valuables and any bodily features construed as having value, despite everything we know of human nature, we would find it very difficult to believe. It is very difficult to conceive of any regime as blatantly as the Nazis legitimising mass murder ever again. there are of course different weapons, such as famine, deliberate neglect etc, yet i would argue that the world has not yet plumbed the moral depths that Nazi Germany did, despite the other genocides that have occurred since.
It wasn't pointless or lacking reason. The Nazis identified Jews in Wall St and in the Soviet Union government as their enemies.
They were a reaction to the austerity imposed on Germany in the 1930s. Fascism was all about trauma and death and existential dread.
It was run by sociopaths who could channel the fear of their people.
The Nazis wanted to impose a different economic model that wasn't run out of Wall St.
http://www.amazon.com/Wages-Destruction-Making-Breaking-Economy/dp/0143113208
Most of the German industrialists were with the Nazis.
Every war is the same. There was nothing unique about the Nazis.
What eventually defeated them was the lack of oil.
It is very difficult to conceive of any regime as blatantly as the Nazis legitimising mass murder ever againClimate change means it's pretty inevitable
the logic of war is fairly grotesque. This is from the FT
http://ftalphaville.ft.com//2012/07/10/1078071/the-negative-fear-bubble/
"Capital must be destroyed in order for liquidity to be usefully deployed once again — especially if it is to deliver investment returns.Hence, why wars are so hugely useful for dealing with economic depressions. They permanently and effectively destroy capacity. Not just the surplus capacity that plagues the system, but core capacity, which serves a genuine economic need. Indeed, it's the need for the capacity to be reinstalled that in many ways justifies a return on investment again.
The foundation of Friedman's corrupting principle is that the investor (money to be more precise) has no duty, obligation or covenant to anyone or anything."
And when the war is over reconstruction is great for business.
Disagree strongly Seafoid. Wall Street/ International finance angle does not cover the atrocities meted out to poverty stricken Jewish communities - although Hitler's anti semitism was well rooted and exposed from Mein Kampf onward, there is little to suggest that he actually believed the conflation of Jew with Communism (as witnessed by the pragmatism of the pre war pact with Stalin, no fan of the Jewish people themselves). It was a visceral hatred, based in the prejudices and myths of Mittel Europe. As the Jewish combat leaders in Warsaw expressed in messages to prominent Jews in America - you will have no one left to lead. The extermination of the Jewish population of Europe was an end in itself - the weakening of any international finance/ communist plot a happy byproduct for the Nazis.
The climate change comment, i find to be a bit glib, especially from someone who claims that Israel is currently engaged in a genocide against Palestinians. To attribute actions such as the Holocaust and other genocides to what seems to be a Marxist reading of history, completely ignores Man's capacity to pervert ideologies of whatever bent to satisfy more primal urges.
Lack of oil did not do for the Nazis - what did for them was an inability to resupply their own lines at Stalingrad, caused by Hitler's increasing need to micro manage the front from Germany. They had taken a lot of the oil fields in southern Russia by the time they turned to stalingrad - ironically this fuel allowed them travel far ahead of their own supply lines across the steppes ( a lot of the provisioning had to be done by pack animals because roads were so bad). if Hitler had not been so fixated in taking a city bearing Stalin's name the advance across the steppes would have been slower and more successful.
Lack of oil is putting a post modern read on a conflict that does not bear the supposition. Unlike Iraq, WW2 was not fought for oil, though it's acquisition became a strategic imperative. But it was not a cause of the war.
The Nazis were unique, because of the way they were able to incriminate an entire nation - the German industrialists Krups and Siemens actually opened factories in Auschwitz in 1942. Never before or since has a nation committed such awful crimes with the acquiescence or tacit support of the vast majority of its citizens, very different from any other genocidal examples given in this thread.
Quote from: easytiger95 on February 02, 2015, 02:20:16 PM
Disagree strongly Seafoid. Wall Street/ International finance angle does not cover the atrocities meted out to poverty stricken Jewish communities - although Hitler's anti semitism was well rooted and exposed from Mein Kampf onward, there is little to suggest that he actually believed the conflation of Jew with Communism (as witnessed by the pragmatism of the pre war pact with Stalin, no fan of the Jewish people themselves). It was a visceral hatred, based in the prejudices and myths of Mittel Europe. As the Jewish combat leaders in Warsaw expressed in messages to prominent Jews in America - you will have no one left to lead. The extermination of the Jewish population of Europe was an end in itself - the weakening of any international finance/ communist plot a happy byproduct for the Nazis.
The climate change comment, i find to be a bit glib, especially from someone who claims that Israel is currently engaged in a genocide against Palestinians. To attribute actions such as the Holocaust and other genocides to what seems to be a Marxist reading of history, completely ignores Man's capacity to pervert ideologies of whatever bent to satisfy more primal urges.
Lack of oil did not do for the Nazis - what did for them was an inability to resupply their own lines at Stalingrad, caused by Hitler's increasing need to micro manage the front from Germany. They had taken a lot of the oil fields in southern Russia by the time they turned to stalingrad - ironically this fuel allowed them travel far ahead of their own supply lines across the steppes ( a lot of the provisioning had to be done by pack animals because roads were so bad). if Hitler had not been so fixated in taking a city bearing Stalin's name the advance across the steppes would have been slower and more successful.
Lack of oil is putting a post modern read on a conflict that does not bear the supposition. Unlike Iraq, WW2 was not fought for oil, though it's acquisition became a strategic imperative. But it was not a cause of the war.
The Nazis were unique, because of the way they were able to incriminate an entire nation - the German industrialists Krups and Siemens actually opened factories in Auschwitz in 1942. Never before or since has a nation committed such awful crimes with the acquiescence or tacit support of the vast majority of its citizens, very different from any other genocidal examples given in this thread.
The cause of the war was the economic breakdown post 1929 that came out of ww1.
The Germans thought they could dominate with a different economic model that enslaved the slavs. They were insane.
Climate change isn't glib, either. How do you think India is going to feed 2 billion people ?
And China ? With desertification and seasons unreliable from one year to the next .
The Nazis were not and will not be seen as sui generis.
I think oil was one of the main reasons they lost but feel free to differ.
They didn't get any and once they lost Stalingrad the Soviets turned the tide. They didn't have the resources to
beat the Soviets. They had the best military machine but it wasn't enough. By 1944 they were doing stuff with coal but the war was lost.
We are very lucky to live in a very stable period of economic history but others will not be so lucky.
The mechanisms to kill large numbers of people industrially exist and they will be used again.
http://www.poetryinternationalweb.net/pi/site/poem/item/9297/auto/A-DISUSED-SHED-IN-CO-WEXFORD
I don't think climate change is glib, I think your assumption that genocide is unavoidable because of it is.
I think it is too easy to blame geopolitical or increasingly climatic factors whilst ignoring very human and at times, evil choices. I'm not religious by any means, but I do recognise man's capacity to do evil, quite apart from any external factors. Which is why I think it is hugely important that the holocaust is not down played or forgotten - because, climate change etc not withstanding, every human has a choice to participate or not participate in horrors such as the Shoah. Remembering it is a way of preventing it.
I wasn;t talking about the causes of the war - I was talking about the causes of the Holocaust, which are two very different things. For instance, if the Allies had not taken up arms after Poland's invasion, I think the Holocaust would still have occurred.
The reasons I differ with you on the oil question is 1 - it wasn't the cause of the Hitler's downfall, in fact if you were going to pinpoint economic reasons for their loss, you'd be far more likely to pinpoint the destruction of Germany's capacity to manufacture armaments by the Allied bombing campaign. Stalingrad was lost because of over reach and a fatal tendency by Hitler to meddle - even up to the end he was refusing Paulus permission to break out, which was still possible.
2 - there is tendency to link back in history to reinforce modern viewpoints - eg WW2 was lost because of oil, Nazis were evil. American forces invaded Iraq for oil, American's are evil. Not saying that you are doing that, but the tendency to say that every war is the same is not valid in my opinion. And in saying that we risk dooming ourselves to accepting that war will always be with us, when, in fact, the world is a far, far more peaceful place than it has ever been.
Quote from: easytiger95 on February 02, 2015, 04:10:38 PM
I don't think climate change is glib, I think your assumption that genocide is unavoidable because of it is.
I think it is too easy to blame geopolitical or increasingly climatic factors whilst ignoring very human and at times, evil choices. I'm not religious by any means, but I do recognise man's capacity to do evil, quite apart from any external factors. Which is why I think it is hugely important that the holocaust is not down played or forgotten - because, climate change etc not withstanding, every human has a choice to participate or not participate in horrors such as the Shoah. Remembering it is a way of preventing it.
I wasn;t talking about the causes of the war - I was talking about the causes of the Holocaust, which are two very different things. For instance, if the Allies had not taken up arms after Poland's invasion, I think the Holocaust would still have occurred.
The reasons I differ with you on the oil question is 1 - it wasn't the cause of the Hitler's downfall, in fact if you were going to pinpoint economic reasons for their loss, you'd be far more likely to pinpoint the destruction of Germany's capacity to manufacture armaments by the Allied bombing campaign. Stalingrad was lost because of over reach and a fatal tendency by Hitler to meddle - even up to the end he was refusing Paulus permission to break out, which was still possible.
2 - there is tendency to link back in history to reinforce modern viewpoints - eg WW2 was lost because of oil, Nazis were evil. American forces invaded Iraq for oil, American's are evil. Not saying that you are doing that, but the tendency to say that every war is the same is not valid in my opinion. And in saying that we risk dooming ourselves to accepting that war will always be with us, when, in fact, the world is a far, far more peaceful place than it has ever been.
I think food security is taken as a given and it shouldn't be. We are a very shortsighted species. Look at Asian population growth post ww2.
There were 300m people in the Raj when Mountbatten took down the flag in 1948. Now between Pak, India and Bangla it's close to 2bn.
It doesn't matter how things are now - it's about what sort of risk is building up in the system and what happens when the models break down.
Surely that is the Irish lesson from 2008.
150m people in India depend for food on an aquifer that is running down.
And limiting the damage to that assumes climate is stable.
Climate change is going to change the flow of water into the Ganges. What sort of planning in India doing to manage this? None.
Iraq and Syria are also about climate change and resource allocation.
http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/jul/06/water-supplies-shrinking-threat-to-food
Today some 18 countries, containing half the world's people, are overpumping their aquifers. Among these are the big three grain producers – China, India and the US – and several other populous countries, including Iran, Pakistan and Mexico.
They way Dalits are treated in India- do you think they'll be looked after when the shit hits the fan ?
Genocide is always possible under the right conditions.
Not really worth arguing about Seafoid - my beef on the thread was with people belittling the Holocaust, which certainly wasn't you, IMHO.
Still, and all, i do think you have a fairly Hobbesian, depressing view of the world. My own view is that, just as the Nazis choose to do the evil things that they did, mankind, as a whole, can choose not to, and take a different path. And if you look around at the evidence, wars are down, life expectancy up, inequality between countries and continents actually decreasing (which may well have benefical population consequences) - in general there has never been a better time to be alive.
Quote from: easytiger95 on February 02, 2015, 06:31:36 PM
Not really worth arguing about Seafoid - my beef on the thread was with people belittling the Holocaust, which certainly wasn't you, IMHO.
Still, and all, i do think you have a fairly Hobbesian, depressing view of the world. My own view is that, just as the Nazis choose to do the evil things that they did, mankind, as a whole, can choose not to, and take a different path. And if you look around at the evidence, wars are down, life expectancy up, inequality between countries and continents actually decreasing (which may well have benefical population consequences) - in general there has never been a better time to be alive.
It is a great time to be alive but I think tail risk is a huge weakness and I don't see anyone doing anything about it.
I think that is why the global economy is such a mess. We need a different system that takes these things into account.
Maybe it will happen.
Wars are edging up as well. Not in Europe.
Quote from: seafoid on February 02, 2015, 01:32:57 PM
"Capital must be destroyed in order for liquidity to be usefully deployed once again — especially if it is to deliver investment returns.Hence, why wars are so hugely useful for dealing with economic depressions. They permanently and effectively destroy capacity. Not just the surplus capacity that plagues the system, but core capacity, which serves a genuine economic need. Indeed, it's the need for the capacity to be reinstalled that in many ways justifies a return on investment again.
The foundation of Friedman's corrupting principle is that the investor (money to be more precise) has no duty, obligation or covenant to anyone or anything."
And when the war is over reconstruction is great for business.
You could be onto something there. You know why the trains never run on time in England? Because the system is full of bottlenecks that are all but impossible to sort out. There's always an ancient cathedral or housing development in the way. Germany's network was obliterated in the war and they got to rebuild theirs from scratch according to the needs of the emerging modern Germany, which needed more lines running East-West as opposed to the old North-South lines before. The British network wasn't hit so hard and they're pretty much stuck with what they built during the industrial revolution.
Quote from: seafoid on February 02, 2015, 05:28:13 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on February 02, 2015, 04:10:38 PM
I don't think climate change is glib, I think your assumption that genocide is unavoidable because of it is.
I think it is too easy to blame geopolitical or increasingly climatic factors whilst ignoring very human and at times, evil choices. I'm not religious by any means, but I do recognise man's capacity to do evil, quite apart from any external factors. Which is why I think it is hugely important that the holocaust is not down played or forgotten - because, climate change etc not withstanding, every human has a choice to participate or not participate in horrors such as the Shoah. Remembering it is a way of preventing it.
I wasn;t talking about the causes of the war - I was talking about the causes of the Holocaust, which are two very different things. For instance, if the Allies had not taken up arms after Poland's invasion, I think the Holocaust would still have occurred.
The reasons I differ with you on the oil question is 1 - it wasn't the cause of the Hitler's downfall, in fact if you were going to pinpoint economic reasons for their loss, you'd be far more likely to pinpoint the destruction of Germany's capacity to manufacture armaments by the Allied bombing campaign. Stalingrad was lost because of over reach and a fatal tendency by Hitler to meddle - even up to the end he was refusing Paulus permission to break out, which was still possible.
2 - there is tendency to link back in history to reinforce modern viewpoints - eg WW2 was lost because of oil, Nazis were evil. American forces invaded Iraq for oil, American's are evil. Not saying that you are doing that, but the tendency to say that every war is the same is not valid in my opinion. And in saying that we risk dooming ourselves to accepting that war will always be with us, when, in fact, the world is a far, far more peaceful place than it has ever been.
I think food security is taken as a given and it shouldn't be. We are a very shortsighted species. Look at Asian population growth post ww2.
There were 300m people in the Raj when Mountbatten took down the flag in 1948. Now between Pak, India and Bangla it's close to 2bn.
It doesn't matter how things are now - it's about what sort of risk is building up in the system and what happens when the models break down.
Surely that is the Irish lesson from 2008.
150m people in India depend for food on an aquifer that is running down.
And limiting the damage to that assumes climate is stable.
Climate change is going to change the flow of water into the Ganges. What sort of planning in India doing to manage this? None.
Iraq and Syria are also about climate change and resource allocation.
http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/jul/06/water-supplies-shrinking-threat-to-food
Today some 18 countries, containing half the world's people, are overpumping their aquifers. Among these are the big three grain producers – China, India and the US – and several other populous countries, including Iran, Pakistan and Mexico.
They way Dalits are treated in India- do you think they'll be looked after when the shit hits the fan ?
Genocide is always possible under the right conditions.
Seafoid what are you going on about? This thread is supposed to be about the holocaust and you are back talking about food shortages that water table in India?
We have already discussed the perpetual food shortage mirage in great depth here
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=25245.75
The last line of his post makes it clear what the connection is. He's on topic.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 03, 2015, 06:20:48 AM
The last line of his post makes it clear what the connection is. He's on topic.
the last line of which post ?
He's not really Eamonn
TBF The connection is based on jumping from one assumption to the next, with a few irrelevant facts thrown in.
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 03, 2015, 04:05:36 PM
He's not really Eamonn
TBF The connection is based on jumping from one assumption to the next, with a few irrelevant facts thrown in.
Joe
Did anyone around Omagh die during the Famine ?
Quote from: seafoid on February 03, 2015, 05:15:14 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 03, 2015, 04:05:36 PM
He's not really Eamonn
TBF The connection is based on jumping from one assumption to the next, with a few irrelevant facts thrown in.
Joe
Did anyone around Omagh die during the Famine ?
Yes
He's saying that genocide tends to happen when the right conditions are in place, such as a lack of food or water security.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 03, 2015, 08:51:36 PM
He's saying that genocide tends to happen when the right conditions are in place, such as a lack of food or water security.
The other big one is where land ownership is suddenly contested when a power system breaks down ie the Armenian genocide
Quote from: seafoid on February 03, 2015, 09:09:56 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 03, 2015, 08:51:36 PM
He's saying that genocide tends to happen when the right conditions are in place, such as a lack of food or water security.
The other big one is where land ownership is suddenly contested when a power system breaks down ie the Armenian genocide
There is some serious telepathy going on here guys :-)
The causes of genocide are almost always caused by political instability and propaganda fueled tribalism.
WWII Germany
Rwandan Civil War
Indian Partition
Collapse of the Ottoman Empire
Historically it has very little to do with food supply
In fact most famines and food shortages world wide have been caused and used by war not the other way around.
Why? Because the biggest threat to food supply is not the production of food but in disruption to the distribution network.