Wanting to destroy catholic education (without even mentioning the OO,the body most singularly responsible for sectarianism in the 6 counties) and now proposing that the Union flag fly on designated days in nationalist controlled council areas.
Are you being ironic Tony? The whole point of being middle ground is that you don't have colours, let alone "true" colours.
The CCMS/Catholic schooling is much to strong and powerful for anyone to stop. The only way that will change is if Catholics decide to do so. I won't happen.
Their adherents are almost gloating all over twitter with their proposed flags policy "forcing nationalist councils to fly the flag on designated days". Sounds like an attempt to win lost unionist ground after the Belfast City Council motion.
Don't kid yourself about Alliance being middle of the road,they are and always have been small "u" unionists.
Integrated education is peddled as the panacea to end sectarianism.Can't see it,when you have the Orange Order ( whose raison d'être is promoting sectarianism) continuing to exert substantial influence,and shamefully indulged not least by the Dublin government.
http://sluggerotoole.com/2013/01/29/has-david-ford-even-read-the-patten-report/
Alliance Party leader David Ford must have watched last December as British Prime Minister David Cameron delivered a public apology for the unchecked, extra-judicial and murderous activities of the Force Research Unit (or FRU) in Ireland. Cameron lamented at the time that, "The collusion demonstrated beyond any doubt... is totally unacceptable".
The issue with collusion was never simply that it happened but rather how it happened: how a culture of impunity emerged and was sustained; how state agents managed to act extra-judically, without fear of local oversight or local accountability. Real policing reform, starting with the Patten Report and culminating with the appointment of a local Justice Ministry with responsibility for local policing, was desiged to end that nefarious, lethal culture.
Why then is David Ford advocating for the introduction of the NCA, the National Crime Agency, to Northern Ireland?
Thanks to the SDLP and SF, the NCA will not be coming to a dark corner near your community (though it probably will anyway).
The Alliance Party may be out of touch with the meat of recent negotiations, but for anyone remotely familiar with the reasons fundamental policing reform was fought for and secured by Nationalist parties in the years before and since the signing of the 1998 Belfast Agreement, SF and the SDLP's determination to block an NCA usurpation of local policing powers is easy to understand.
Local Policing Accountability is a red line issue for Nationalists, and hopefully others besides.
As the BBC reported, were the new NCA given a pass to circumnavigate both the PSNI and the local policing boards' powers of accountability and oversight, the consequences would include the concession of the following powers to shadowy operatives free from the scrutiny of locally elected officials:
- the powers of a police constable in Northern Ireland;
- the authority to carry out searches and make arrests;
- the ability to conduct surveillance operations;
- the ability to recruit and run informers and agents.
Despite the overwhelming evidence that extra-judicial killings, corruption and a general social poisoning were direct consequences of policing operations that were insulated from accountability to the local communities they at times terrorized, the Alliance Party's leader David Ford appears confused. According to Ford,
"There is a real danger if it does not go ahead there will be very significant costs to the police both in terms of time and finances and that we will have an inferior response to the serious organised crime that we face,"
David Ford, NI's only minister not appointed under the d'Hondt mechanism, cannot be unaware (surely?) that some of the most "serious organised crime" Northern Ireland has ever faced was organized by agents of the state who were left free to operate beyond the scrutiny of locally elected officials.
The Alliance Party has earned some decent media of late but little, if any, of that has been down to the actions – or inactions – of its leader. While M.P for East Belfast Naomi Long – Ford's conspicuous, dignified and determined party colleague – has executed the responsibilities of elected office with elan and courage, Ford's knee-shakingly timid response to weeks of rioting, road blocks and attacks on police officers has, by contrast, left many wondering: what's the point of having a Justice Minister at all?
Now that Ford has reappeared his attempts to remind everyone that he's still on post by acting as lead Cheer Leader for the introduction of the NCA to Northern Ireland, his calls for a reversion to the days of policing of the people but not by the people, has only served to aggrevate those who hadn't forgotten he was still around.
It is difficult to assess what is more disturbing: a locally appointed Justice Minister who believes his power to hold 'intelligence operations' to account are too many, or a Justice Minister who appears blissfully unaware of why his post was created in the first place. Either way, confidence in Ford's ability to man the Justice Minsitry can never have been lower. Though he may not have claimed much personal input towards the original Patter inspired policing reforms, by endorsing the NCA and the loss of local accountability the question must be asked: Has he even read the Patten Report?
Let's assume Ford has read Patten. Let's assume he has listened to the British Prime Minister acknowledge and apologize for the murder of Irish citizens by, at best, 'out of control' extra-judicial paramilitary policing agents. Let's assume Ford also understands that local powers of accountability are a minimum bulwark against slipping back into the days when Ireland was treated as a counter-insurgency laboratory.
Assuming all that, could the Alliance Party please tell us why local people should have any faith whatsoever in unaccountable intelligence agents run from outside Northern Ireland?
Does the Alliance Party simply not understand the reasons Nationalists (primarily though not exclusively) will not countenance losing hard won powers to hold policing actions accountable?
Some will argue that Alliance's positioning here is less about policing policy than political posturing; Ford's attempt to distinguish his party from the SDLP. I'm not convinced this is that thought-through. Perhaps someone could hand him a copy of Patten before he leaves?
Would choice be important in this? The freedom for parents to choose to send their kids to whatever school they see fit.
Surely its kids education that's important, choosing a school should ultimately be decided on what is the best school (locally) that will provide the best education for your child, teaching them religion happens at home and at whatever church you go to, or in most cases don't go to church.
As for eradicating sectarianism, that is mainly done to parenting also.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 30, 2013, 11:21:59 AM
As for eradicating sectarianism, that is mainly done to parenting also.
as is instillin sectarianism
Integrated schooling is a really nice concept but it would never work. For a start it would never be allowed to happen. I went to school in Newry, I'd like to see them explain how this would work for the four Catholic grammar schools there.
Remember well Fords election slogan during council elections in Newtownabbey."Vote Ford to keep Meehan and Sinn Fein out",and they haven't changed.
Are they still sponsoring the National League? ;)
Quote from: fitzroyalty on January 30, 2013, 12:47:31 PM
Integrated schooling is a really nice concept but it would never work. For a start it would never be allowed to happen. I went to school in Newry, I'd like to see them explain how this would work for the four Catholic grammar schools there.
Would you agree that religion should be taught at home?
QuoteIntegrated schooling is a really nice concept but it would never work. For a start it would never be allowed to happen. I went to school in Newry, I'd like to see them explain how this would work for the four Catholic grammar schools there.
Would you agree that religion should be taught at home?
I'm sure everyone thinks religion should be taught at home, the question is whether it should be taught at school.
As for Fitzroyalty's point, where you have areas where most people are of one side or the other then schools will reflect that.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 30, 2013, 11:21:59 AM
Surely its kids education that's important, choosing a school should ultimately be decided on what is the best school (locally) that will provide the best education for your child, teaching them religion happens at home and at whatever church you go to, or in most cases don't go to church.
Teaching religion currently happens in schools in the Catholic sector and if you were going to get rid of the Catholic educational sector, you'd have to get churches to bring in Sunday School like their protestant counterparts. Religion should be instilled at home, yes, but not everyone's parents are teachers who would have an RE curriculum to hand and the ability to teach it right.
Surely the objection is not specifically to the teaching of RE, but the fact that there are "Catholic only" schools, which are preventing kids integrating from an early age, the inference being clearly that this is fuelling sectarianism (when the reality is that its doing nothing of the sort). This fallacy of contributing sectarianism needs to be challenged, efficiency savings etc could be argued more rationally.
Old fogies like me, remember the Chilver Report in 1980 which proposed the merger of Stranmillis and Trench House Teacher Training colleges in Belfast, which was vigorously and successfully opposed by the Catholic middle classes. One wonders if the same vehement opposition could be rallied against integrated education at all levels these days.
Quote from: Rois on January 30, 2013, 03:21:41 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 30, 2013, 11:21:59 AM
Surely its kids education that's important, choosing a school should ultimately be decided on what is the best school (locally) that will provide the best education for your child, teaching them religion happens at home and at whatever church you go to, or in most cases don't go to church.
Teaching religion currently happens in schools in the Catholic sector and if you were going to get rid of the Catholic educational sector, you'd have to get churches to bring in Sunday School like their protestant counterparts. Religion should be instilled at home, yes, but not everyone's parents are teachers who would have an RE curriculum to hand and the ability to teach it right.
Indeed, my octogenarian mother still believes Protestants should be ritually disemboweled for being heretics of the most foul kind. I'm sure that hasn't been Church teaching since about 1988.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 04:06:43 PM
Surely the objection is not specifically to the teaching of RE, but the fact that there are "Catholic only" schools, which are preventing kids integrating from an early age, the inference being clearly that this is fuelling sectarianism (when the reality is that its doing nothing of the sort). This fallacy of contributing sectarianism needs to be challenged, efficiency savings etc could be argued more rationally.
Old fogies like me, remember the Chilver Report in 1980 which proposed the merger of Stranmillis and Trench House Teacher Training colleges in Belfast, which was vigorously and successfully opposed by the Catholic middle classes. One wonders if the same vehement opposition could be rallied against integrated education at all levels these days.
It is more than an inference and it certainly fuels a feeling of division/difference amongst kids.
It might give rise to a "feeling", but what is the point in having integrated education, when the Orange Order indoctrinates kids from an early age? Has the status quo in education prevented both sides from interacting (reasonably well) at third level education, in the work place, and residentially (the middle classes)?
Integrated education is a red herring thrown in by unionist parties as a game of oneupmanship against "the other side". The real contributory factors towards community division and sectarianism, eg the Orange Order, paramilitary control of ghettoes on both sides etc, is neither addressed nor challenged.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 30, 2013, 03:10:39 PM
Quote from: fitzroyalty on January 30, 2013, 12:47:31 PM
Integrated schooling is a really nice concept but it would never work. For a start it would never be allowed to happen. I went to school in Newry, I'd like to see them explain how this would work for the four Catholic grammar schools there.
Would you agree that religion should be taught at home?
I would. It should also be taught at schools that promote a Catholic ethos - otherwise they wouldn't be doing their job. The fact that there are so many and the fact that they generally tend to outperform their 'Protestant' state counterparts forms IMO part of the reason Unionists are so keen for integrated schooling.
Societal problems can't be solved solely by changing the schooling system (though it might help to a certain degree). Have to agree with T Fearon. Go along to to your nearest bonfire during the next school summer holidays and see what's on offer there. People bring their kids to these things. See what they are brought up with. I don't know what integrated schooling is going to do to eradicate a mindset that is firmly ingrained with sectarianism.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 04:51:48 PM
It might give rise to a "feeling", but what is the point in having integrated education, when the Orange Order indoctrinates kids from an early age? Has the status quo in education prevented both sides from interacting (reasonably well) at third level education, in the work place, and residentially (the middle classes)?
Integrated education is a red herring thrown in by unionist parties as a game of oneupmanship against "the other side". The real contributory factors towards community division and sectarianism, eg the Orange Order, paramilitary control of ghettoes on both sides etc, is neither addressed nor challenged.
The Orange Order has no direct influence on education in state schools. As for your comment about 'both sides interacting (reasonably well) at third level education', this is too little, too late and ignores the fact that this does little to bring about more interaction and integration between working class protestants and catholics.
As for your comment about integrated education being a red herring and being about oneupmanship etc, what a load of absolute nonsense. Getting more young people educated together from primary school age can only be a positive move. This is particularly the case if they are living in paramilitary controlled areas. Finally, presumably catholic maintained schools will still be there as an option, if this is the parents' preference.
Many Catholic schools have crucifixes, images of Our Lady, grottoes etc. I much prefer my kids being brought up in these environments and being taught gaelic football and Irish and Latin etc (because I'm a bigot you say). The alternatives are:
- a school plastered with NI Flags or Union Jacks and being taught only soccer
- a completely anaemic school where culture is frowned upon
Are the anti-clergy brigade on this board all in favour of shutting down Catholic schools?
Can anyone identify a single state school in the 6 counties where Gaelic games are played?
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 09:24:06 AM
Integrated education is peddled as the panacea to end sectarianism. Can't see it,when you have the Orange Order ( whose raison d'être is promoting sectarianism) continuing to exert substantial influence,and shamefully indulged not least by the Dublin government.
That old straw man again? What would segregationists do without the word "panacea"? Seems to be their favourite cliché. They remind me of the gun nuts in the US saying "gun control measures are not going to completely eliminate all gun crime, therefore we should not have gun control measures."
Quote from: fitzroyalty on January 30, 2013, 12:47:31 PM
Integrated schooling is a really nice concept but it would never work. For a start it would never be allowed to happen. I went to school in Newry, I'd like to see them explain how this would work for the four Catholic grammar schools there.
The age old circular argument. "It will never happen because it will never happen."
Quote from: armaghniac on January 30, 2013, 06:26:39 PM
Can anyone identify a single state school in the 6 counties where Gaelic games are played?
No. That's one of the few arguments in their favour.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2013, 06:30:06 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 09:24:06 AM
Integrated education is peddled as the panacea to end sectarianism. Can't see it,when you have the Orange Order ( whose raison d'être is promoting sectarianism) continuing to exert substantial influence,and shamefully indulged not least by the Dublin government.
That old straw man again? What would segregationists do without the word "panacea"? Seems to be their favourite cliché. They remind me of the gun nuts in the US saying "gun control measures are not going to completely eliminate all gun crime, therefore we should not have gun control measures."
Tell me this Eamonn, if tribe A goes to tribe A schools and tribe B goes to tribe B schools, would an argument for a school C, for both tribes, not have some merit in a sectarian climate?
(I accept school C would have to be agreeable to both sides)
Quote from: armaghniac on January 30, 2013, 06:26:39 PM
Can anyone identify a single state school in the 6 counties where Gaelic games are played?
What's that got to do with integrated education? Presumably Gaelic games are an option at most if not all integrated schools and that this will continue to be the case if the sector grows.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 04:06:43 PM
Surely the objection is not specifically to the teaching of RE, but the fact that there are "Catholic only" schools, which are preventing kids integrating from an early age, the inference being clearly that this is fuelling sectarianism (when the reality is that its doing nothing of the sort). This fallacy of contributing sectarianism needs to be challenged, efficiency savings etc could be argued more rationally.
Old fogies like me, remember the Chilver Report in 1980 which proposed the merger of Stranmillis and Trench House Teacher Training colleges in Belfast, which was vigorously and successfully opposed by the Catholic middle classes. One wonders if the same vehement opposition could be rallied against integrated education at all levels these days.
Is this satire? Are you for real? Sorry but sometimes in Northern Ireland politics it's a bit hard to tell if people actually are stuck in a time-warp or if they're just taking the piss.
I grew up in a mixed area, and still I hardly ever spoke to the protestant ones that got the same bus as us. Why? Because we had nothing to talk about - until it came to exam time. Since we were all doing the same exams suddenly we had a bit of common ground and something to talk about.
If we had gone to the same schools we'd have gotten to know each other better. There was no forum in which we ever met on a social level. There was no sports club in the area that we would both have been members of, we certainly wouldn't have met at Sunday service, there was no youth club for both crowds, no pubs that both could have mingled in (not that we were old enough for that), absolutely nowhere that we could have met on a social level. The only thing government has a chance of influencing is the number 1 place where absolutely all children mingle, namely school.
The fact is, catholic education DOES segregate children by religion. And the fact that this enterprise is funded by the state is an absolute disgrace. If schools are going to get taxpayer funding, they should be secular. If churches want to ram their superstitious propaganda down the throats of impressionable children then let them fund it themselves, but there's no way the taxpayer should be forced to foot the bill for it. The problem in Northern Ireland is that the catholic education system has been funded by the taxpayer for so long that it has come to be seen as an entitlement, and this sense of entitlement has been ingrained for generations. Very hard to shift people's mindsets when they get addicted to having their snouts in the public trough for long enough.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 04:51:48 PM
It might give rise to a "feeling", but what is the point in having integrated education, when the Orange Order indoctrinates kids from an early age? Has the status quo in education prevented both sides from interacting (reasonably well) at third level education, in the work place, and residentially (the middle classes)?
Integrated education is a red herring thrown in by unionist parties as a game of oneupmanship against "the other side". The real contributory factors towards community division and sectarianism, eg the Orange Order, paramilitary control of ghettoes on both sides etc, is neither addressed nor challenged.
Here is the news. By the time you've reached your late teens and you finally start going to educational institutions where you meet people of the other side, it's too late. Your formative years are over. Your views are already more or less set in stone. And in any case not everyone goes on to further and higher education. If a fenian leaves school at 16 then there's every chance that his first encounter with a prod will be when he starts work, but it's just as possible he'll go through his entire life without ever meeting one.
Blaming the OO for all of society's divisions is a bit of a stretch.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt you know.
Quote from: Orior on January 30, 2013, 06:05:35 PM
Many Catholic schools have crucifixes, images of Our Lady, grottoes etc. I much prefer my kids being brought up in these environments and being taught gaelic football and Irish and Latin etc (because I'm a bigot you say). The alternatives are:
- a school plastered with NI Flags or Union Jacks and being taught only soccer
- a completely anaemic school where culture is frowned upon
Are the anti-clergy brigade on this board all in favour of shutting down Catholic schools?
I'm in favour of the state system being religiously neutral and the catholic system being funded by the church alone.
What's that I hear you say? The church can't afford it? Hmmm...
(http://www.travlang.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/interior-of-St.-Peters.jpg)
Quote from: muppet on January 30, 2013, 06:38:18 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2013, 06:30:06 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 09:24:06 AM
Integrated education is peddled as the panacea to end sectarianism. Can't see it,when you have the Orange Order ( whose raison d'être is promoting sectarianism) continuing to exert substantial influence,and shamefully indulged not least by the Dublin government.
That old straw man again? What would segregationists do without the word "panacea"? Seems to be their favourite cliché. They remind me of the gun nuts in the US saying "gun control measures are not going to completely eliminate all gun crime, therefore we should not have gun control measures."
Tell me this Eamonn, if tribe A goes to tribe A schools and tribe B goes to tribe B schools, would an argument for a school C, for both tribes, not have some merit in a sectarian climate?
(I accept school C would have to be agreeable to both sides)
Of course it would. It blows my mind that people can't see this.
MichaelG,the Orange Order having no influence in state schools,in a round about way is my point.The education system currently does not foster sectarianism.Unfortunately the Orange Order exerts considerable malign influence outside of school,and junior members are indoctrinated at primary school age.
My nieces and nephew went to intergrated school at primary level,and to a state sector grammar school.They turned out both non sectarian (as they would have done whatever school they attended), totally devoid of any religious leaning and with no exposure whatsoever to any form of Irish culture.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 06:50:07 PM
MichaelG,the Orange Order having no influence in state schools,in a round about way is my point.The education system currently does not foster sectarianism.Unfortunately the Orange Order exerts considerable malign influence outside of school,and junior members are indoctrinated at primary school age.
My nieces and nephew went to intergrated school at primary level,and to a state sector grammar school.They turned out both non sectarian (as they would have done whatever school they attended), totally devoid of any religious leaning and with no exposure whatsoever to any form of Irish culture.
Kinda contradicts just about everything else you've said on this topic, no?
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 06:50:07 PM
MichaelG,the Orange Order having no influence in state schools,in a round about way is my point.The education system currently does not foster sectarianism.Unfortunately the Orange Order exerts considerable malign influence outside of school,and junior members are indoctrinated at primary school age.
My nieces and nephew went to intergrated school at primary level,and to a state sector grammar school.They turned out both non sectarian (as they would have done whatever school they attended), totally devoid of any religious leaning and with no exposure whatsoever to any form of Irish culture.
Surely if the OO has a malign influence, indoctrinating junior members outside of school, then said junior members would be better off at an integrated school?
As for your second paragraph, not sure what point it is you are trying to make.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2013, 06:48:13 PM
Quote from: Orior on January 30, 2013, 06:05:35 PM
Many Catholic schools have crucifixes, images of Our Lady, grottoes etc. I much prefer my kids being brought up in these environments and being taught gaelic football and Irish and Latin etc (because I'm a bigot you say). The alternatives are:
- a school plastered with NI Flags or Union Jacks and being taught only soccer
- a completely anaemic school where culture is frowned upon
Are the anti-clergy brigade on this board all in favour of shutting down Catholic schools?
I'm in favour of the state system being religiously neutral and the catholic system being funded by the church alone.
What's that I hear you say? The church can't afford it? Hmmm...
(http://www.travlang.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/interior-of-St.-Peters.jpg)
So tax paying Catholic parents would have to pay twice in order to send their children to a school that reflects their ethos? Oh sorry I get it, the Church could sell St Peter's to fund it. But then all those tax paying Fenians are still paying to educate other peoples children and not their own. Tithes went out hundreds of years ago over here, maybe the Yanks are still catching up. Also , what about Irish medium schools - maybe if we ask nicely he could sell the Pope mobile as well to pay for those?
Quotewith no exposure whatsoever to any form of Irish culture.
Exactly. Leaving religion out of it, the State school sector in NI sees its role as promoting colonialism.
QuoteNo. That's one of the few arguments in their favour.
And their fans see this as the objective of such schools.
Quote from: armaghniac on January 30, 2013, 07:39:31 PM
Quotewith no exposure whatsoever to any form of Irish culture.
Exactly. Leaving religion out of it, the State school sector in NI sees its role as promoting colonialism.
QuoteNo. That's one of the few arguments in their favour.
And their fans see this as the objective of such schools.
How precisely does it do this? Incidentally, did you attend a school in the state sector?
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 04:51:48 PM
It might give rise to a "feeling", but what is the point in having integrated education, when the Orange Order indoctrinates kids from an early age? Has the status quo in education prevented both sides from interacting (reasonably well) at third level education, in the work place, and residentially (the middle classes)?
Integrated education is a red herring thrown in by unionist parties as a game of oneupmanship against "the other side". The real contributory factors towards community division and sectarianism, eg the Orange Order, paramilitary control of ghettoes on both sides etc, is neither addressed nor challenged.
i have to say that it's possible that indoctrination and a wee bit of internalisation might be going on the catholic side too. i say a wee bit because we all know it's possible for people to have the analytical skills to question and reject the validity of what they're being taught and what they're experiencing culturally. many people become very positively different from what's expected of them. you'd have to wonder why anyone would not want to, or be able to even, see the benefits of this and would want to reject it out of hand before it's even been tried.
and to be fair to you, in your second paragraph you claim that these facts prove that integrated education couldn't work is ridiculous. no one knows how integrated education would pan out in the long term, but might it not be worth supporting as something that could improve and build healthier relationships? policy should be set by evidence. a study needs to be undertaken on what the people want and a policy worked out to provide what's needed. + even if the finding in favour were not overwhelming, if there was enough to fill a school it would be a start and something to build on.
coming out with the same old argument for why things are the way they are for us, without reflecting and trying to be better than we were, is one trick pony territory.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2013, 06:45:34 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 04:51:48 PM
It might give rise to a "feeling", but what is the point in having integrated education, when the Orange Order indoctrinates kids from an early age? Has the status quo in education prevented both sides from interacting (reasonably well) at third level education, in the work place, and residentially (the middle classes)?
Integrated education is a red herring thrown in by unionist parties as a game of oneupmanship against "the other side". The real contributory factors towards community division and sectarianism, eg the Orange Order, paramilitary control of ghettoes on both sides etc, is neither addressed nor challenged.
Here is the news. By the time you've reached your late teens and you finally start going to educational institutions where you meet people of the other side, it's too late. Your formative years are over. Your views are already more or less set in stone. And in any case not everyone goes on to further and higher education. If a fenian leaves school at 16 then there's every chance that his first encounter with a prod will be when he starts work, but it's just as possible he'll go through his entire life without ever meeting one.
Blaming the OO for all of society's divisions is a bit of a stretch.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt you know.
Exsqeeze me? Baking powder?
They are one of the two root causes. Paisley being the other.
I'm with Alliance on the education point. There should be one sector for all children. If its good enough for Further and Higher education, then why not at primary and secondary level? Parents can do the religion at home, or bring their children to mass - if they want specialist schools, they and the church can pay for them.
Quote from: Orior on January 30, 2013, 08:59:07 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2013, 06:45:34 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 04:51:48 PM
It might give rise to a "feeling", but what is the point in having integrated education, when the Orange Order indoctrinates kids from an early age? Has the status quo in education prevented both sides from interacting (reasonably well) at third level education, in the work place, and residentially (the middle classes)?
Integrated education is a red herring thrown in by unionist parties as a game of oneupmanship against "the other side". The real contributory factors towards community division and sectarianism, eg the Orange Order, paramilitary control of ghettoes on both sides etc, is neither addressed nor challenged.
Here is the news. By the time you've reached your late teens and you finally start going to educational institutions where you meet people of the other side, it's too late. Your formative years are over. Your views are already more or less set in stone. And in any case not everyone goes on to further and higher education. If a fenian leaves school at 16 then there's every chance that his first encounter with a prod will be when he starts work, but it's just as possible he'll go through his entire life without ever meeting one.
Blaming the OO for all of society's divisions is a bit of a stretch.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt you know.
Exsqeeze me? Baking powder?
They are one of the two root causes. Paisley being the other.
You say that Orange Order indoctrinates kids, I also say the Catholic church (like all religions) indoctrinates kids. There are a serious amount of prod kids whose families are not in the OO. My kids go to non denominational schools they aren't being taught to be prods or taigs, If they want to play Gaelic games they will at the club, if they don't (like a lot of kids) then I can't make them. Would I like the school to encourage Gaelic games? Yes big time, same way I would have liked the chance to have played soccer at my old school, buy hey no soccer allowed as we were a catholic school who frowned on those types of sports, thus denying us the chance to try other things at school level.
I think there is is a lot of money spent in schools to ensure there is both a catholic school and a Prod school in close proximity. Money wasted in my opinion
QuoteIf they want to play Gaelic games they will at the club,
A school that has no Gaelic games, no Irish language etc is not integrated in any meaningful sense of the word (and of course real integrated schools have these things). It is no use talking about schools that did not play soccer, everyone at that school had exposure to soccer and played in the school yard. It is no good talking about rugby schools, if Rockwell College does not have gaelic games it does not mean that its pupils do not know about them.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2013, 06:41:46 PM
If schools are going to get taxpayer funding, they should be secular.
If churches want to ram their superstitious propaganda .....
Very hard to shift people's mindsets ...
Do people who have Religious beliefs not have to pay tax?
Your next sentence lets us know what mast your colours are nailed to ..
And your mindset is pretty well set against people who have religious beliefs ( or superstitious propoganda as you insultingly refer to the beliefs of billions of people across the world)....
Quote from: Rossfan on January 30, 2013, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2013, 06:41:46 PM
If schools are going to get taxpayer funding, they should be secular.
If churches want to ram their superstitious propaganda .....
Very hard to shift people's mindsets ...
Do people who have Religious beliefs not have to pay tax?
They do. And for their taxes, their children can access the education system, just like the rest. My point would be that if they demand a separate sector to accommodate their 'religious ethos', they can pay more.
Quote from: armaghniac on January 30, 2013, 09:29:04 PM
QuoteIf they want to play Gaelic games they will at the club,
A school that has no Gaelic games, no Irish language etc is not integrated in any meaningful sense of the word (and of course real integrated schools have these things). It is no use talking about schools that did not play soccer, everyone at that school had exposure to soccer and played in the school yard. It is no good talking about rugby schools, if Rockwell College does not have gaelic games it does not mean that its pupils do not know about them.
By the same token then, does that that mean that a school that does not acknowledge the unionist / British tradition in Ireland is also not integrated in any meaningful sense of the word?
As for your point about soccer and playing in the school yard, does this not prove the point that soccer is the game that most schoolboys wanted to be playing and being denied the opportunity to do so, therefore, was unfair?
OO indoctrination includes hatred of all things catholic,a superiority over all Catholics,Pope is anti christ etc.Catholic education does not denigrate Protestant beliefs,Protestant people etc.
There is no evidence that faith schools contribute to sectarianism never mind promote it etc.
My core point is that Alliance Party's belief that integrated education will eradicate sectarianism,or even diminish it,is entirely erroneous.
Well what about the cost of having different sectors then? SF's current united Ireland pitch appears largely based on economics - in particular the duplication of services across the 2 jurisdictions. Here's an example in just one of those jurisdictions - yet there doesn't appear to be any appetite to address it.
QuoteBy the same token then, does that that mean that a school that does not acknowledge the unionist / British tradition in Ireland is also not integrated in any meaningful sense of the word?
How on earth could they not acknowledge the British in Ireland when the Queen's head is on every coin spent in the tuckshop?
I pay taxes which fund the local police department. If I want to hire private security more closely tailored to what I want then I'm free to do so at my own expense, but I still have to do my bit for society and pay taxes to fund the police service that's available to everyone. That's how society works.
In the UK you pay national insurance to fund the NHS. If you want to get private health care more closely tailored to what you want they you're free to do so at your own expense, but you still have to make your NI contributions to fund the health service so that it's available to everyone. That's how society works.
So you pay taxes to fund the education system. If you want to have a private system for the purpose of indoctrinating your wee ones about the invisible man in the sky then knock yourself out and foot the bill for it, but you'll still have to pay your taxes to fund the state education system that's open to everyone. That's how society should work.
As for integration, integrated schools should be teaching kids how to play soccer, hockey, rugby, tennis, hurling, gaelic, the whole lot. And if there's no GAA sports in local state schools or integrated schools in your area, don't just sit there and hold it up as proof that the system is broken. Take positive action. Get your local GAA club to make in-roads in those schools by providing coaching in Gaelic games during PE. That's what's happening in schools in the USA, there's no excuse for clubs in Ireland to not be able to do the same.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 09:55:09 PM
OO indoctrination includes hatred of all things catholic,a superiority over all Catholics,Pope is anti christ etc.Catholic education does not denigrate Protestant beliefs,Protestant people etc.
There is no evidence that faith schools contribute to sectarianism never mind promote it etc.
My core point is that Alliance Party's belief that integrated education will eradicate sectarianism,or even diminish it,is entirely erroneous.
You seem to think that OO is in every Prod family, I disagree. Yes anybody who is in the OO and teach their kids to hate catholics is a tosser and a bigot, that won't change, intergrated schools won't change that either, I'd say that the OO numbers have diminished in recent years, I haven't got the actual figures but I'd say their membership is a lot lower, a bit like the amount of catholics that actually go to church and even less the amount of catholics who don't have sex before marriage and all the other do's and don'ts.
There are still interface areas that will bring out bigot hatred. Go to any Celtic/rangers game or even Cliftonville/Linfield game (and I've been) and the madness that is at these games doesn't come from one side only.
It's the same old thing, them and us
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 10:08:14 PM
Well what about the cost of having different sectors then? SF's current united Ireland pitch appears largely based on economics - in particular the duplication of services across the 2 jurisdictions. Here's an example in just one of those jurisdictions - yet there doesn't appear to be any appetite to address it.
Spot on. There's about 4 sectors in the north. State, CCMS, Integrated, and Irish Medium.
Quote from: armaghniac on January 30, 2013, 09:29:04 PM
QuoteIf they want to play Gaelic games they will at the club,
A school that has no Gaelic games, no Irish language etc is not integrated in any meaningful sense of the word (and of course real integrated schools have these things). It is no use talking about schools that did not play soccer, everyone at that school had exposure to soccer and played in the school yard. It is no good talking about rugby schools, if Rockwell College does not have gaelic games it does not mean that its pupils do not know about them.
The State secondary system is mono cultural and dysfunctional as a future model. The integrated primary and secondary look more interesting.
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE. Let's face it what Alliance want is for your children to be homogeneous Northern Irish Brits, end off.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 09:55:09 PM
There is no evidence that faith schools contribute to sectarianism never mind promote it etc.
Well a minute ago you cited an example of people who went to an integrated school and came out as non-sectarian. If I were able to pull up a few examples of people who went to segregated schools and came out as bigots would you accept that as evidence to the contrary of what you've just claimed there?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2013, 10:15:10 PM
I pay taxes which fund the local police department. If I want to hire private security more closely tailored to what I want then I'm free to do so at my own expense, but I still have to do my bit for society and pay taxes to fund the police service that's available to everyone. That's how society works.
In the UK you pay national insurance to fund the NHS. If you want to get private health care more closely tailored to what you want they you're free to do so at your own expense, but you still have to make your NI contributions to fund the health service so that it's available to everyone. That's how society works.
So you pay taxes to fund the education system. If you want to have a private system for the purpose of indoctrinating your wee ones about the invisible man in the sky then knock yourself out and foot the bill for it, but you'll still have to pay your taxes to fund the state education system that's open to everyone. That's how society should work.
As for integration, integrated schools should be teaching kids how to play soccer, hockey, rugby, tennis, hurling, gaelic, the whole lot. And if there's no GAA sports in local state schools or integrated schools in your area, don't just sit there and hold it up as proof that the system is broken. Take positive action. Get your local GAA club to make in-roads in those schools by providing coaching in Gaelic games during PE. That's what's happening in schools in the USA, there's no excuse for clubs in Ireland to not be able to do the same.
Yup, we're as British as Finchley here and should be accepting of a good UK education system.
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 10:18:26 PM
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE. Let's face it what Alliance want is for your children to be homogeneous Northern Irish Brits, end off.
I want my kids to be well educated at school, that is the reason why I send them to school. I will teach the culture and if they want to hurl play scor or bogball they can come to the club, as for religion they can make up their own minds on that head melt, who's right on that one?
Suppose you'll know when you are dead
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 10:18:26 PM
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE. Let's face it what Alliance want is for your children to be homogeneous Northern Irish Brits, end off.
Correct.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 30, 2013, 09:23:45 PM
You say that Orange Order indoctrinates kids, I also say the Catholic church (like all religions) indoctrinates kids. There are a serious amount of prod kids whose families are not in the OO. My kids go to non denominational schools they aren't being taught to be prods or taigs, If they want to play Gaelic games they will at the club, if they don't (like a lot of kids) then I can't make them. Would I like the school to encourage Gaelic games? Yes big time, same way I would have liked the chance to have played soccer at my old school, buy hey no soccer allowed as we were a catholic school who frowned on those types of sports, thus denying us the chance to try other things at school level.
I think there is is a lot of money spent in schools to ensure there is both a catholic school and a Prod school in close proximity. Money wasted in my opinion
No, Im saying that the OO indoctrinates young adults.
Quote from: whereshegoinref on January 30, 2013, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 30, 2013, 07:48:00 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 30, 2013, 07:39:31 PM
Quotewith no exposure whatsoever to any form of Irish culture.
Exactly. Leaving religion out of it, the State school sector in NI sees its role as promoting colonialism.
QuoteNo. That's one of the few arguments in their favour.
And their fans see this as the objective of such schools.
How precisely does it do this? Incidentally, did you attend a school in the state sector?
I spend a lot of time in secondary schools across all sectors through work - many, if not all state schools fly the union flag and some of the various other symbols of British culture I have seen to the fore include portraits of members of the royal family, plaques recognising past pupils in the British armed forces, not to mention careers in the armed forces actively being promoted as a career choice. I have never seen anything in a state school to indicate that Irish culture even exists.
If Catholic schools were ever to be replaced by integrated for the purposes of promoting a shared society then the current state school sector would also have to go by the wayside.
Have you ever seen a school in the north flying a tricolour?
MR2, the core reason for sectarianism in the 6 counties is the artificial statelet set up on a crude sectarian headcount.Until that is addressed sectarianism will never be successfully tackled.
My point is that if you even wanted to start to deal with the problem,you would target organisations like the OO,not innocuous educational establishments that do not propagate sectarianism.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 09:34:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 30, 2013, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2013, 06:41:46 PM
If schools are going to get taxpayer funding, they should be secular.
If churches want to ram their superstitious propaganda .....
Very hard to shift people's mindsets ...
Do people who have Religious beliefs not have to pay tax?
They do. And for their taxes, their children can access the education system, just like the rest. My point would be that if they demand a separate sector to accommodate their 'religious ethos', they can pay more.
Regardless of what faith a private school has, as long as it educates children to the standard the curriculum demands, then the state should be obliged to support those schools, to a similar extent that it supports state sector schools.
If parents want to have a Steiner secondary education, that school should receive the same pupil to teacher ratio financial support, plus building maintenance etc. Usually the Steiner people will do all the groundwork in establishing the school, making it work and raise extra funds. Such education establishments are less of a financial burden on the State, than 100% State run institutions.
It's a boring world, if you just want to have a communist style imposed single State supported system of education.
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 10:18:26 PM
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE.
So why do we need different sectors then?
Quote from: whereshegoinref on January 30, 2013, 10:32:33 PM
Quote from: Orior on January 30, 2013, 10:28:42 PM
Quote from: whereshegoinref on January 30, 2013, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 30, 2013, 07:48:00 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 30, 2013, 07:39:31 PM
Quotewith no exposure whatsoever to any form of Irish culture.
Exactly. Leaving religion out of it, the State school sector in NI sees its role as promoting colonialism.
QuoteNo. That's one of the few arguments in their favour.
And their fans see this as the objective of such schools.
How precisely does it do this? Incidentally, did you attend a school in the state sector?
I spend a lot of time in secondary schools across all sectors through work - many, if not all state schools fly the union flag and some of the various other symbols of British culture I have seen to the fore include portraits of members of the royal family, plaques recognising past pupils in the British armed forces, not to mention careers in the armed forces actively being promoted as a career choice. I have never seen anything in a state school to indicate that Irish culture even exists.
If Catholic schools were ever to be replaced by integrated for the purposes of promoting a shared society then the current state school sector would also have to go by the wayside.
Have you ever seen a school in the north flying a tricolour?
Never
Apart from the one in Tyrone that Willie alerted us to. :P
If alliance were in the south standing on getting religion out of schools they have my vote. Especially since labour haven't the balls to do anything they said they would.
Quote from: Main Street on January 30, 2013, 10:32:38 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 09:34:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 30, 2013, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2013, 06:41:46 PM
If schools are going to get taxpayer funding, they should be secular.
If churches want to ram their superstitious propaganda .....
Very hard to shift people's mindsets ...
Do people who have Religious beliefs not have to pay tax?
They do. And for their taxes, their children can access the education system, just like the rest. My point would be that if they demand a separate sector to accommodate their 'religious ethos', they can pay more.
Regardless of what faith a private school has, as long as it educates children to the standard the curriculum demands, then the state should be obliged to support those schools, to a similar extent that it supports state sector schools.
If parents want to have a Steiner secondary education, that school should receive the same pupil to teacher ratio financial support, plus building maintenance etc. Usually the Steiner people will do all the groundwork in establishing the school, making it work and raise extra funds. Such education establishments are less of a financial burden on the State, than 100% State run institutions.
It's a boring world, if you just want to have a communist style imposed single State supported system of education.
Does the University sector or FE College sector seem boring or communist.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 04:51:48 PM
It might give rise to a "feeling", but what is the point in having integrated education, when the Orange Order indoctrinates kids from an early age? Has the status quo in education prevented both sides from interacting (reasonably well)
Integrated education is a red herring thrown in by unionist parties as a game of oneupmanship against "the other side". The real contributory factors towards community division and sectarianism, eg the Orange Order, paramilitary control of ghettoes on both sides etc, is neither addressed nor challenged.
The answer to your question can only be "yes".
Notwithstanding your personal observations on the Orange Order it has little influence on the majority of Protestant children.
Quote from: armaghniac on January 30, 2013, 07:39:31 PM
Quotewith no exposure whatsoever to any form of Irish culture.
Exactly. Leaving religion out of it, the State school sector in NI sees its role as promoting colonialism.
QuoteNo. That's one of the few arguments in their favour.
And their fans see this as the objective of such schools.
You must be having a laugh surely.
Quote from: Orior on January 30, 2013, 10:26:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 30, 2013, 09:23:45 PM
You say that Orange Order indoctrinates kids, I also say the Catholic church (like all religions) indoctrinates kids. There are a serious amount of prod kids whose families are not in the OO. My kids go to non denominational schools they aren't being taught to be prods or taigs, If they want to play Gaelic games they will at the club, if they don't (like a lot of kids) then I can't make them. Would I like the school to encourage Gaelic games? Yes big time, same way I would have liked the chance to have played soccer at my old school, buy hey no soccer allowed as we were a catholic school who frowned on those types of sports, thus denying us the chance to try other things at school level.
I think there is is a lot of money spent in schools to ensure there is both a catholic school and a Prod school in close proximity. Money wasted in my opinion
No, Im saying that the OO indoctrinates young adults.
It was TF that I quoted, you were just also on the quote below, but are you saying the OO indoctrinates all young adults from a Protestant background?
Tony does the Catholic church agree with mixed marriages? Will it also marry gay or lesbians couples?
Quote from: T Fearon on January 30, 2013, 10:30:44 PM
MR2, the core reason for sectarianism in the 6 counties is the artificial statelet set up on a crude sectarian headcount.Until that is addressed sectarianism will never be successfully tackled.
My point is that if you even wanted to start to deal with the problem,you would target organisations like the OO,not innocuous educational establishments that do not propagate sectarianism.
Don't know about you but one adjective that I would not use to describe educational establishments is "innocuous". These are the places where our children learn , interact with other human beings , form friendships , learn and develop social skills , develop sporting prowess."Innocuous"?- catch a grip.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 10:33:42 PM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 10:18:26 PM
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE.
So why do we need different sectors then?
Some of us like the choice of not having our children educated as homogeneous Nornern Irish Brits.
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 11:08:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 10:33:42 PM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 10:18:26 PM
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE.
So why do we need different sectors then?
Some of us like the choice of not having our children educated as homogeneous Nornern Irish Brits.
The middle ground has to be obvious but neither side will even pretend it exists.
It has to be either 100% Catholic clergy run schools v '
homogeneous Nornern Irish Brits eh schools'
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 11:08:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 10:33:42 PM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 10:18:26 PM
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE.
So why do we need different sectors then?
Some of us like the choice of not having our children educated as homogeneous Nornern Irish Brits.
I don't think schools teach children to be homogeneous Northern Irish Brits, I believe they teach other subjects.
Waiting on a reply from Tony about the catholic church being inclusive, I suppose it will be here when I wake up.....
I'd like to see a poll on how many real catholics there are on this board and how many catholics don't practice the things laid out by the church
Quote from: Itchy on January 30, 2013, 10:38:51 PM
If alliance were in the south standing on getting religion out of schools they have my vote. Especially since labour haven't the balls to do anything they said they would.
+1
Would be nice to see Alliance start a sister party in the Republic.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 30, 2013, 11:41:31 PM
I'd like to see a poll on how many real catholics there are on this board and how many catholics don't practice the things laid out by the church
I always was brought up to believe that being a catholic was to robotically go through the motions of chanting and muttering prayers, to sit, stand and kneel at odd times like some sort of ultra-slow-motion aerobics, to unthinkingly perform all sorts of weird rituals, and to listen to sinister middle-aged virgins pontificating on sexual matters that they haven't a f**king hope of understanding. The actual spiritual content was next to zero. Half an hour of every school day from the age of 3 to the age of 16 wasted on complete and utter bullshit.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 30, 2013, 11:41:31 PM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 11:08:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 10:33:42 PM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 10:18:26 PM
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE.
So why do we need different sectors then?
Some of us like the choice of not having our children educated as homogeneous Nornern Irish Brits.
I don't think schools teach children to be homogeneous Northern Irish Brits, I believe they teach other subjects.
Waiting on a reply from Tony about the catholic church being inclusive, I suppose it will be here when I wake up.....
I'd like to see a poll on how many real catholics there are on this board and how many catholics don't practice the things laid out by the church
Didn't do Hugh O'Neill any harm.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 30, 2013, 11:41:31 PM
Waiting on a reply from Tony about the catholic church being inclusive, I suppose it will be here when I wake up.....
He's probably preparing the old "catholic schools teach children to respect protestants" defence. It's as if respect for diversity is something you can learn from a book, rather than something you learn between classes in the corridor, the canteen and the playground when you're actually mingling with people from the other side.
Quote from: Orior on January 30, 2013, 10:25:36 PM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 10:18:26 PM
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE. Let's face it what Alliance want is for your children to be homogeneous Northern Irish Brits, end off.
Correct.
How will learning algebra or chemistry in the same room as a Protestant turn someone into a homogeneous Northern Irish Brit?
MR2 the catholic church is inclusive,open to one and all who accepts its beliefs.But what has that got to do with integrated education tackling sectarianism? Too many people on this thread venting anti Catholicism,and not dealing with the main issue,which is whether or not integrated education will reduce or eliminate sectarianism.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 06:01:46 AM
MR2 the catholic church is inclusive,open to one and all who accepts its beliefs.But what has that got to do with integrated education tackling sectarianism? Too many people on this thread venting anti Catholicism,and not dealing with the main issue,which is whether or not integrated education will reduce or eliminate sectarianism.
lmao.... the catholic church is "inclusive" is it! people from the LGBT community would hardly put the catholic church's beliefs towards them in that light.
+ as opposed to segregated education which has done a marvelous job of eliminating sectarianism.
one trick pony.
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 11:08:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 10:33:42 PM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 10:18:26 PM
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE.
So why do we need different sectors then?
Some of us like the choice of not having our children educated as homogeneous Nornern Irish Brits.
Is that what happens in our local universities and FE colleges?
Anyway, as the argument goes, a United Ireland would not simply be a takeover by the 26 counties - similarly a proper state sector would reflect the diverse background of its pupils.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 08:58:58 AM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 11:08:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 10:33:42 PM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 10:18:26 PM
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE.
So why do we need different sectors then?
Some of us like the choice of not having our children educated as homogeneous Nornern Irish Brits.
Is that what happens in our local universities and FE colleges?
Anyway, as the argument goes, a United Ireland would not simply be a takeover by the 26 counties - similarly a proper state sector would reflect the diverse background of its pupils.
FE and HE are not compulsory and will normally have an ethos centred on learning and scholarly study. Very different from primary and secondary education.
Cadence, I said it was open to all "who accept its beliefs". Members of the LGBT community do not accept its beliefs. Like it or not, the root of all Christian faiths are centred on the teachings of Christ and other biblical content, and again like it or not, these teachings, taking the lead from the bible, condemn homosexuality. If anything all protestant churches are more strident in their condemnation of the lifestyles of the LGBT community than the Catholic Church is, and to complain about any Christian church (never mind catholic) not being open to them is akin to complaining about the OO now allowing catholics to join. If you cant accept the rules then you cannot expect to be allowed to join, I'm afraid.
Once again this is irrelevant to the debate as to the value of integrated education in terms of reducing or eliminating sectarianism.
Would this mean that GAA would become compulsory in state schools as part of the curriculum similar to soccer? And that Irish would have to be provided as an option for languages? Or would these be banished to extra-curriculum activities?
Would the compromise be all on the Catholic schools side? That they drop anything remotely connected to an Irish tradition without the state school modifying it's outlook to allow for the changed interests of it's new found students?
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 06:01:46 AM
MR2 the catholic church is inclusive,open to one and all who accepts its beliefs.But what has that got to do with integrated education tackling sectarianism? Too many people on this thread venting anti Catholicism,and not dealing with the main issue,which is whether or not integrated education will reduce or eliminate sectarianism.
It seems that many fear that it would.
Quote from: Hardy on January 31, 2013, 10:40:24 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 06:01:46 AM
MR2 the catholic church is inclusive,open to one and all who accepts its beliefs.But what has that got to do with integrated education tackling sectarianism? Too many people on this thread venting anti Catholicism,and not dealing with the main issue,which is whether or not integrated education will reduce or eliminate sectarianism.
It seems that many fear that it would.
Do you believe people opposed to the abolishment of Catholic schooling are sectarian?
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 10:43:23 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 30, 2013, 10:32:38 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 09:34:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 30, 2013, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2013, 06:41:46 PM
If schools are going to get taxpayer funding, they should be secular.
If churches want to ram their superstitious propaganda .....
Very hard to shift people's mindsets ...
Do people who have Religious beliefs not have to pay tax?
They do. And for their taxes, their children can access the education system, just like the rest. My point would be that if they demand a separate sector to accommodate their 'religious ethos', they can pay more.
Regardless of what faith a private school has, as long as it educates children to the standard the curriculum demands, then the state should be obliged to support those schools, to a similar extent that it supports state sector schools.
If parents want to have a Steiner secondary education, that school should receive the same pupil to teacher ratio financial support, plus building maintenance etc. Usually the Steiner people will do all the groundwork in establishing the school, making it work and raise extra funds. Such education establishments are less of a financial burden on the State, than 100% State run institutions.
It's a boring world, if you just want to have a communist style imposed single State supported system of education.
Does the University sector or FE College sector seem boring or communist.
Is that a reply to my post? I thought you might make an effort to explain yourself better and refrain from glib nonsense.
According to your way of thinking, there's only one system for primary and secondary education, the state's way and if you don't like it then pay for your own alternate choice.
I have invited you to examine the idea, that many different types of schools can exist in the State funded sector, teaching a similar curriculum with trained teachers. It won't cost the state any more to fund the teaching of these children than if they went to a 100% state built and run school.
Maybe you can expand on your point
"that if they demand a separate sector to accommodate their 'religious ethos', they can pay more."
QuoteWould this mean that GAA would become compulsory in state schools as part of the curriculum similar to soccer? And that Irish would have to be provided as an option for languages? Or would these be banished to extra-curriculum activities?
Would the compromise be all on the Catholic schools side? That they drop anything remotely connected to an Irish tradition without the state school modifying it's outlook to allow for the changed interests of it's new found students?
For many in this debate being Irish is a contentious thing, to be excluded from schools at all costs.
While I not sure about the Alliance proposal, which is probably well meaning but half baked, there are many State schools with declining enrolments who declare themselves "integrated" without actually being so in any actual sense.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on January 31, 2013, 10:46:49 AM
Quote from: Hardy on January 31, 2013, 10:40:24 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 06:01:46 AM
MR2 the catholic church is inclusive,open to one and all who accepts its beliefs.But what has that got to do with integrated education tackling sectarianism? Too many people on this thread venting anti Catholicism,and not dealing with the main issue,which is whether or not integrated education will reduce or eliminate sectarianism.
It seems that many fear that it would.
Do you believe people opposed to the abolishment of Catholic schooling are sectarian?
Not in the narrow sense in which the word is generally used - i.e. that they, as a characteristic of their group, hate, mistrust, avoid or discriminate against people who are not of their religion. But separating people by religion to administer their education (or for any purpose) is by definition sectarian in the broad sense.
Quote from: armaghniac on January 31, 2013, 10:56:04 AM
QuoteWould this mean that GAA would become compulsory in state schools as part of the curriculum similar to soccer? And that Irish would have to be provided as an option for languages? Or would these be banished to extra-curriculum activities?
Would the compromise be all on the Catholic schools side? That they drop anything remotely connected to an Irish tradition without the state school modifying it's outlook to allow for the changed interests of it's new found students?
For many in this debate being Irish is a contentious thing, to be excluded from schools at all costs.
While I not sure about the Alliance proposal, which is probably well meaning but half baked, there are many State schools with declining enrolments who declare themselves "integrated" without actually being so in any actual sense.
If that's the case, then I'd prefer they left it as is. Until we see movement on both sides to be inclusive then calling on one side to change is pointless. It has to be a joint effort and I think if this was the case and suddenly the idea of the GAA and aspects of Irish culture was to be pushed in State schools alongside British Culture then we will be hit with a whole new wave of complaints about the erosion of "our" culture.
I'm not necessary in favour of integrated schools, I'm in favour of good schooling without the need to press home one or any religion. I'd be more interested in knowing about all religions, their beliefs and from that be able to make a judgement on them (if needs be)
I think it's been well documented the hazards of having religion imposing itself on governments care centres the 'bad boys homes' in the past and even in schools. Can protestants go to Catholic schools and not be involved in the holy stuff? I know when I went to school to even question the need to not do confession in school once a month got me detention and parents brought up to the school. To question things catholic related while in RE also ended badly, inclusive only if you accept it, not inclusive if you question it
Quote from: Hardy on January 31, 2013, 10:56:42 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on January 31, 2013, 10:46:49 AM
Quote from: Hardy on January 31, 2013, 10:40:24 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 06:01:46 AM
MR2 the catholic church is inclusive,open to one and all who accepts its beliefs.But what has that got to do with integrated education tackling sectarianism? Too many people on this thread venting anti Catholicism,and not dealing with the main issue,which is whether or not integrated education will reduce or eliminate sectarianism.
It seems that many fear that it would.
Do you believe people opposed to the abolishment of Catholic schooling are sectarian?
Not in the narrow sense in which the word is generally used - i.e. that they, as a characteristic of their group, hate, mistrust, avoid or discriminate against people who are not of their religion. But separating people by religion to administer their education (or for any purpose) is by definition sectarian in the broad sense.
True but the problem at the minute is that what they are offering in a state school doesn't match what some parents want for their children in a schooling environment. Personally I would want to send my child to a school that would provide good education and will give my child the opportunity to experience the culture of the GAA through they're school life if that is what they wish. I prefer this to a school that views soccer or rugby on a higher level than football. I'd like my child to be given a taste of learning Irish from an early age to see if it ignites an interest. And I would like these options to be provided by the school. Most state schools aren't doing this so in my opinion until they start to offer a genuine alternative to Catholic schooling then I would not support the scraping of catholic schooling. If they can do this then I would have no problem with truly intergrated education.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2013, 11:14:26 AM
I'm not necessary in favour of integrated schools, I'm in favour of good schooling without the need to press home one or any religion. I'd be more interested in knowing about all religions, their beliefs and from that be able to make a judgement on them (if needs be)
I think it's been well documented the hazards of having religion imposing itself on governments care centres the 'bad boys homes' in the past and even in schools. Can protestants go to Catholic schools and not be involved in the holy stuff? I know when I went to school to even question the need to not do confession in school once a month got me detention and parents brought up to the school. To question things catholic related while in RE also ended badly, inclusive only if you accept it, not inclusive if you question it
Yes.
I'll just make a couple of points. I'm broadly in favour of one sector for all kids as long as it delivers good education.
Personally I don't think it's a good idea to put reconciliation between the various communities in the North as the
prime objective of an education system.
Integrated education is
part of the solution to reducing sectarianism in NI, it is not
the solution. I don't want to be too pessimistic but I think we're still a long way from the kids of Ardoyne and Glenbryn and Short Strand and the Lower Newtownards Road going to school together. Of course that doesn't mean we should stop working towards that end.
Lastly I was educated at a well known Catholic grammar school in Belfast during the 1970s. The priests there ran a very strict discipline regime there. But I would have to say that debate in RE (and other) classes was very open. We often questioned the priests on aspects of Catholic doctrine without our parents getting a threatening phone call from the Provisional Redemptorist Brigade. I remember one great class where the priest ignored the text book and he spent 45 mins explaining to us how he reconciled being a Physics teacher (and therefore a scientist at heart) with being a believer. It was great stuff.
Quote from: AQMP on January 31, 2013, 11:51:31 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2013, 11:14:26 AM
I'm not necessary in favour of integrated schools, I'm in favour of good schooling without the need to press home one or any religion. I'd be more interested in knowing about all religions, their beliefs and from that be able to make a judgement on them (if needs be)
I think it's been well documented the hazards of having religion imposing itself on governments care centres the 'bad boys homes' in the past and even in schools. Can protestants go to Catholic schools and not be involved in the holy stuff? I know when I went to school to even question the need to not do confession in school once a month got me detention and parents brought up to the school. To question things catholic related while in RE also ended badly, inclusive only if you accept it, not inclusive if you question it
Yes.
I'll just make a couple of points. I'm broadly in favour of one sector for all kids as long as it delivers good education. Personally I don't think it's a good idea to put reconciliation between the various communities in the North as the prime objective of an education system.
Integrated education is part of the solution to reducing sectarianism in NI, it is not the solution. I don't want to be too pessimistic but I think we're still a long way from the kids of Ardoyne and Glenbryn and Short Strand and the Lower Newtownards Road going to school together. Of course that doesn't mean we should stop working towards that end.
Lastly I was educated at a well known Catholic grammar school in Belfast during the 1970s. The priests there ran a very strict discipline regime there. But I would have to say that debate in RE (and other) classes was very open. We often questioned the priests on aspects of Catholic doctrine without our parents getting a threatening phone call from the Provisional Redemptorist Brigade. I remember one great class where the priest ignored the text book and he spent 45 mins explaining to us how he reconciled being a Physics teacher (and therefore a scientist at heart) with being a believer. It was great stuff.
I was just unlucky then, I ended up with a clip around the ear and detention!!
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 10:08:24 AM
Cadence, I said it was open to all "who accept its beliefs". Members of the LGBT community do not accept its beliefs. Like it or not, the root of all Christian faiths are centred on the teachings of Christ and other biblical content, and again like it or not, these teachings, taking the lead from the bible, condemn homosexuality. If anything all protestant churches are more strident in their condemnation of the lifestyles of the LGBT community than the Catholic Church is, and to complain about any Christian church (never mind catholic) not being open to them is akin to complaining about the OO now allowing catholics to join. If you cant accept the rules then you cannot expect to be allowed to join, I'm afraid.
Once again this is irrelevant to the debate as to the value of integrated education in terms of reducing or eliminating sectarianism.
I read it correctly the first time. Religions are a support system. Like any support system, there are rules, do I take my shoes off, when do I bow or kneel, what do members of our group belive in etc. The who makes the rules, how are they communicated, when do we get to change the rules and by what means, all of this is significant. Human support systems, the healthy ones at least, are open to others going and coming and to scrutiny. Closed systems where entry is difficult or nigh on impossible unless you know someone and can be trusted to not challenge or question wha goes on in the system are always the systems that have imbalances of power and abusive behaviour taking place
Don't take this the wrong way, there is empathy for the oppression of Catholics, but by staying as the oppressed you get stuck, saying the same things over and over again as the reason why you are in a particular situation. Do you not see the benefits of reaching out to like minded protestants who want to end sectarianism? You have to take more meaning from it than we are oppressed in order to move forward. There has to be an and..? There also has to be an acceptance and ownership of our own shitty behaviour. Entrenched identities of oppression will stay put, saying the same things over and over, like a one trick pony. We have to become better than we were before or we accept by anger, cynicism and pessimism. What do you think?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2013, 12:03:31 PM
Quote from: AQMP on January 31, 2013, 11:51:31 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2013, 11:14:26 AM
I'm not necessary in favour of integrated schools, I'm in favour of good schooling without the need to press home one or any religion. I'd be more interested in knowing about all religions, their beliefs and from that be able to make a judgement on them (if needs be)
I think it's been well documented the hazards of having religion imposing itself on governments care centres the 'bad boys homes' in the past and even in schools. Can protestants go to Catholic schools and not be involved in the holy stuff? I know when I went to school to even question the need to not do confession in school once a month got me detention and parents brought up to the school. To question things catholic related while in RE also ended badly, inclusive only if you accept it, not inclusive if you question it
Yes.
I'll just make a couple of points. I'm broadly in favour of one sector for all kids as long as it delivers good education. Personally I don't think it's a good idea to put reconciliation between the various communities in the North as the prime objective of an education system.
Integrated education is part of the solution to reducing sectarianism in NI, it is not the solution. I don't want to be too pessimistic but I think we're still a long way from the kids of Ardoyne and Glenbryn and Short Strand and the Lower Newtownards Road going to school together. Of course that doesn't mean we should stop working towards that end.
Lastly I was educated at a well known Catholic grammar school in Belfast during the 1970s. The priests there ran a very strict discipline regime there. But I would have to say that debate in RE (and other) classes was very open. We often questioned the priests on aspects of Catholic doctrine without our parents getting a threatening phone call from the Provisional Redemptorist Brigade. I remember one great class where the priest ignored the text book and he spent 45 mins explaining to us how he reconciled being a Physics teacher (and therefore a scientist at heart) with being a believer. It was great stuff.
I was just unlucky then, I ended up with a clip around the ear and detention!!
You probably deserved it! ;)
QuoteI remember one great class where the priest ignored the text book and he spent 45 mins explaining to us how he reconciled being a Physics teacher (and therefore a scientist at heart) with being a believer. It was great stuff.
Having been to school around the same time, I had one narrowminded religion teacher who was an absolute disgrace and who probably drove more people out of the Catholic church than Cromwell. However, I also had a subsequent teacher who was an erudite individual, more than happy to discuss a wide ranging set of topics, who undid a lot of the damage. I also had a teacher who wasn't a profound philosopher, but very much a "decent skin" and a good proponent for religion in practice. I think that difference was very much a feature of the Catholic church at the time, except the better schools had a higher proportion of the erudite type of teacher.
I was expelled from a convent for having long hair and being obsessed by black Sabbath, iron maiden, Judas priest, dio etc. They thought I was possessed and had a priest in to chat to me. I sat in silent protest and got expelled for my sins. Those were the days.
Quote from: cadence on January 31, 2013, 12:36:31 PM
I was expelled from a convent for having long hair and being obsessed by black Sabbath, iron maiden, Judas priest, dio etc. They thought I was possessed and had a priest in to chat to me. I sat in silent protest and got expelled for my sins. Those were the days.
Again, looks like you deserved it!! ;)
Cadence, there is no means of changing faith rules I'm afraid. The basis of faith, the Bible, is non changeable. If the thrust of all religious sects is to save sinners from final damnation, on account of sin,they are unlikely therefore to change the rules to accommodate sins (as they would perceive to be) practised by some of their members, for PR purposes.
Now whether you like reliogious sects or loathe them, you have to admire their steadfastness in the face of global criticism.
Quote from: cadence on January 31, 2013, 12:36:31 PM
I was expelled from a convent for having long hair and being obsessed by black Sabbath, iron maiden, Judas priest, dio etc. They thought I was possessed and had a priest in to chat to me. I sat in silent protest and got expelled for my sins. Those were the days.
Dat you Jimmy?
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
Cadence, there is no means of changing faith rules I'm afraid. The basis of faith, the Bible, is non changeable. If the thrust of all religious sects is to save sinners from final damnation, on account of sin,they are unlikely therefore to change the rules to accommodate sins (as they would perceive to be) practised by some of their members, for PR purposes.
Now whether you like reliogious sects or loathe them, you have to admire their steadfastness in the face of global criticism.
[/b]
or stobborness in admitting they are at times wrong ?
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
Cadence, there is no means of changing faith rules I'm afraid. The basis of faith, the Bible, is non changeable. If the thrust of all religious sects is to save sinners from final damnation, on account of sin,they are unlikely therefore to change the rules to accommodate sins (as they would perceive to be) practised by some of their members, for PR purposes.
Now whether you like reliogious sects or loathe them, you have to admire their steadfastness in the face of global criticism.
Ah now c'mon, history and the reformation would prove otherwise.
Btw, I reckon I was expelled because they never read the lyrics and it they did they did so as is their normal method, literally and not in a metaphorical or philosophical manner, just like a literal interpretation of religious texts. You should listen to more metal....
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
Cadence, there is no means of changing faith rules I'm afraid.
Yeah right. Meat on Friday, purgatory, ne temere, limbo etc.
Eating meat/ or not eating meat on Friday was a practice or tradition, an act of self sacrifice, in much the same way as abstaining at Lent still is, and not an obligation attracting a sinful default. I wasn't aware that the doctrines of Purgatory and Limbo had been jettisoned, they didn't print that in the Parish Bulletin!
The question here is do Churches and Faith Groups exist to save souls or become popular with people?
Still we are veering ever farther away from the question of whether or not segregated education contributes to corrosive sectarianism, as witnessed in the six counties.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 02:12:46 PM
Eating meat/ or not eating meat on Friday was a practice or tradition, an act of self sacrifice, in much the same way as abstaining at Lent still is, and not an obligation attracting a sinful default.
They lied to me about that as well, then. It was one of the six "commandments of the church", as I remember it, which were a sort of local set of bye-laws appended to Moses's stone tablets. Breach had to be confessed in the dark box and it was a venial sin.
As for purgatory and limbo, I think they were just surreptitiously swept away when no one was looking, but without making any provision whatever for the millions of souls languishing there for, among other things ... see meat above.
And ne temere has been replaced by something a little less brazen and arrogant.
Is the main objection to "integrated" schools the fact that they will be raising people to be little model British citizens . i.e a question of Nationality or is it because Catholics want their children going to Catholic ethos schools?
Quote from: Rossfan on January 31, 2013, 02:34:59 PM
Is the main objection to "integrated" schools the fact that they will be raising people to be little model British citizens . i.e a question of Nationality or is it because Catholics want their children going to Catholic ethos schools?
My
guess is, it has little or nothing to do with nationality or national identity
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 31, 2013, 10:38:02 AM
Would this mean that GAA would become compulsory in state schools as part of the curriculum similar to soccer? And that Irish would have to be provided as an option for languages? Or would these be banished to extra-curriculum activities?
Would the compromise be all on the Catholic schools side? That they drop anything remotely connected to an Irish tradition without the state school modifying it's outlook to allow for the changed interests of it's new found students?
Where is football a compulsory part of the curriculum? In my school they relented and allowed football in 6th year, though no team was allowed.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
The basis of faith, the Bible, is non changeable.
How is it decided which bits of the non changeable bible to use for the rules - it seems to contain a vast number of rules (and punishments) of which only some appear to be held so dear.
Quote from: nifan on January 31, 2013, 02:44:40 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 31, 2013, 10:38:02 AM
Would this mean that GAA would become compulsory in state schools as part of the curriculum similar to soccer? And that Irish would have to be provided as an option for languages? Or would these be banished to extra-curriculum activities?
Would the compromise be all on the Catholic schools side? That they drop anything remotely connected to an Irish tradition without the state school modifying it's outlook to allow for the changed interests of it's new found students?
Where is football a compulsory part of the curriculum? In my school they relented and allowed football in 6th year, though no team was allowed.
I'm not sure what way it is now. But when I was in school we had so many weeks soccer, so many Football, so many gymnastics/ athletics etc in PE. Often resulting in a dispute in between the soccer loving townies (Walk on Puckoon) and the Gaa loving country folk on which was to be played. I would expect that in a intergrated school equality would be given to both Soccer and GAA.
Do we know each other? Soccer loving townie??? :-\ Played my first ever organised soccer match 10 years ago, in the USA. It is true that you are a Baa loving country cub however.
I remember being summoned to a meeting with my parents, and my RE and form teacher where it was stated that I had NO chance of passing my GCSE RE exam unless I ceased expressing my own interpretations and arguments of the lessons of the gospel according to St Mark and started regurgitating what was being suggested by the teachings of the school.
That said, I think the recent flag protests have certainly highlighted all the great work that the Catholic Church did in pushing such a high percentage of all economic classes of catholics to succeed with their education. I don't think that in any way negates the value of intergrated education. There is no other way to state it - education based on religious belief systems will only serve to prolong cultural segregation.
Aye you were an exception to the rules Puck. There's always one!!
"forced" integrated schooling is a bit suspect as all social engineering of this sort is, when other places are proposing to increase parental choice rather than reduce it. Because of the segregated geography, you'd still have very unbalanced schools unless you engaged in busing. What would you have to do make Clonalig school give the appearance of balance? In reality, the PUL side of the house don't have the confidence to engage in this,unless it is fake, which makes sense as their case is not one that can be exposed to reason. I'd also see a bit of adverse comment that nationalists could simply head along to the local Gaelscoil, and you'd have fake Ulster Scots schools starting up.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
Cadence, there is no means of changing faith rules I'm afraid. The basis of faith, the Bible, is non changeable. If the thrust of all religious sects is to save sinners from final damnation, on account of sin,they are unlikely therefore to change the rules to accommodate sins (as they would perceive to be) practised by some of their members, for PR purposes.
You're clearly deluded if you believe that - there are numerous examples of how the rules have changed.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
Now whether you like reliogious sects or loathe them, you have to admire their steadfastness in the face of global criticism.
If that was the criteria, then you'd have to admire the BNP and al-Qaeda.
Quote from: Ulick on January 31, 2013, 10:02:55 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 08:58:58 AM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 11:08:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 10:33:42 PM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 10:18:26 PM
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE.
So why do we need different sectors then?
Some of us like the choice of not having our children educated as homogeneous Nornern Irish Brits.
Is that what happens in our local universities and FE colleges?
Anyway, as the argument goes, a United Ireland would not simply be a takeover by the 26 counties - similarly a proper state sector would reflect the diverse background of its pupils.
FE and HE are not compulsory and will normally have an ethos centred on learning and scholarly study. Very different from primary and secondary education.
Eh? Should primary and secondary schools not have an ethos of learning and study, what with them being in the business of education? I can't see your argument for segregated education between the ages of 5 and 16/18, if there's no valid reason for continuing segregation thereafter. (Unless you believe we should have faith-based FE and HE institutions too?)
Quote from: Main Street on January 31, 2013, 10:53:50 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 10:43:23 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 30, 2013, 10:32:38 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 09:34:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 30, 2013, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 30, 2013, 06:41:46 PM
If schools are going to get taxpayer funding, they should be secular.
If churches want to ram their superstitious propaganda .....
Very hard to shift people's mindsets ...
Do people who have Religious beliefs not have to pay tax?
They do. And for their taxes, their children can access the education system, just like the rest. My point would be that if they demand a separate sector to accommodate their 'religious ethos', they can pay more.
Regardless of what faith a private school has, as long as it educates children to the standard the curriculum demands, then the state should be obliged to support those schools, to a similar extent that it supports state sector schools.
If parents want to have a Steiner secondary education, that school should receive the same pupil to teacher ratio financial support, plus building maintenance etc. Usually the Steiner people will do all the groundwork in establishing the school, making it work and raise extra funds. Such education establishments are less of a financial burden on the State, than 100% State run institutions.
It's a boring world, if you just want to have a communist style imposed single State supported system of education.
Does the University sector or FE College sector seem boring or communist.
Is that a reply to my post? I thought you might make an effort to explain yourself better and refrain from glib nonsense.
According to your way of thinking, there's only one system for primary and secondary education, the state's way and if you don't like it then pay for your own alternate choice.
I have invited you to examine the idea, that many different types of schools can exist in the State funded sector, teaching a similar curriculum with trained teachers. It won't cost the state any more to fund the teaching of these children than if they went to a 100% state built and run school.
Maybe you can expand on your point
"that if they demand a separate sector to accommodate their 'religious ethos', they can pay more."
My point wasn't primarily related to cost - although the different sectors in NI has led to under-capacity in many schools, where one area is served by several schools in different sectors, and as such, is hardly efficient. You might have a faith school paying its way, but forcing a state school to run at significant financial cost.
The key issue here is the continued segregation of children in a segregated society. Weighing up the impact on wider society, i'm not convinced that parental choice is an adequate reason to maintain the status quo. I'm also not convinced that current parental choices would be the same if a proper inclusive state sector was established.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 05:56:26 PM
Quote from: Ulick on January 31, 2013, 10:02:55 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 08:58:58 AM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 11:08:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 10:33:42 PM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 10:18:26 PM
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE.
So why do we need different sectors then?
Some of us like the choice of not having our children educated as homogeneous Nornern Irish Brits.
Is that what happens in our local universities and FE colleges?
Anyway, as the argument goes, a United Ireland would not simply be a takeover by the 26 counties - similarly a proper state sector would reflect the diverse background of its pupils.
FE and HE are not compulsory and will normally have an ethos centred on learning and scholarly study. Very different from primary and secondary education.
Eh? Should primary and secondary schools not have an ethos of learning and study, what with them being in the business of education? I can't see your argument for segregated education between the ages of 5 and 16/18, if there's no valid reason for continuing segregation thereafter. (Unless you believe we should have faith-based FE and HE institutions too?)
Of course they should but primary and secondary schools are about much more than learning and study. They have children at their formative years, all our children, and as such are hugely character forming particularly in how they deal with things like civic responsibility, self-worth, respect for others in the community, pastoral care, professional growth, the less fortunate, the arts, sports etc... These are rarely central planks of HE and FE here though arguably the liberal arts colleges in the US would place greater importance on these. HE and FE here are businesses concerned with delivering very specific courses of study which no one has to attend. Two very important differences with primary and secondary.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 05:56:26 PM
I can't see your argument for segregated education between the ages of 5 and 16/18
I can't see it myself, though that shouldn't be strange because nowhere have I ever argued for segregated education at any age.
So bar TF, are we for, not so much intergrated schools but one school for all, depending on the geogerphy of the school, as most secondary schools will cater for kids in their local area. Would mean better choice for parents and mean that schools would probably raise their standards as they won't be able to depend on wee Billy or Wee Paddy always coming to their school cause he can't go to that 'other' school.
And a lot of this depends on that school takes up playing all sports and not just paying lip service, all languages too, Ulster Scot Irish and of cousre not forgeting West Belfastish
As mentioned earlier by someone, not all Catholic schools have Irish as a main language, I never did it at my school and wasn't given the choice either!!
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 06:04:50 PM
My point wasn't primarily related to cost - although the different sectors in NI has led to under-capacity in many schools, where one area is served by several schools in different sectors, and as such, is hardly efficient. You might have a faith school paying its way, but forcing a state school to run at significant financial cost.
The key issue here is the continued segregation of children in a segregated society. Weighing up the impact on wider society, i'm not convinced that parental choice is an adequate reason to maintain the status quo. I'm also not convinced that current parental choices would be the same if a proper inclusive state sector was established.
If the state does not provide the possibility for proper integrated schools where national cultural identity/language/history/ sports/music is a part of the experience, then why should a nationalist family even contemplate sending their children to anything other than the nearest catholic primary/secondary school?
The current state education model is a dead duck for a 'desegregation' of education.
Desegregation cannot be forced and especially where no proper desegregated model exists.
If the state wants to expand the existing integrated school model, then let them establish more integrated schools in areas where there are none. Or deconstruct an existing state school and transform it into an integrated model. Afaia the integrated schools are popular and oversubscribed.
On the cost thing, is it a big issue? or just an issue in some situations? is the motivation to desegregate education a cost thing or is it a social issue? Did Belfast City Council sit down and decide the flag flying policy based on 'best cost scenario' or 'best progressive policy decision we can make, that also gives us the least worst cost scenario in policing costs? :)
While the top end is mostly Catholic schools out performing the rest there are plenty of Catholic schools lying at the bottom. With the Irish speaking school not doing well at all.
The amount of schools in West Belfast doing shit doesn't bode well, North Belfast not far off it also
Quote from: Ulick on January 31, 2013, 06:18:02 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 05:56:26 PM
Quote from: Ulick on January 31, 2013, 10:02:55 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 08:58:58 AM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 11:08:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 30, 2013, 10:33:42 PM
Quote from: Ulick on January 30, 2013, 10:18:26 PM
All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE.
So why do we need different sectors then?
Some of us like the choice of not having our children educated as homogeneous Nornern Irish Brits.
Is that what happens in our local universities and FE colleges?
Anyway, as the argument goes, a United Ireland would not simply be a takeover by the 26 counties - similarly a proper state sector would reflect the diverse background of its pupils.
FE and HE are not compulsory and will normally have an ethos centred on learning and scholarly study. Very different from primary and secondary education.
Eh? Should primary and secondary schools not have an ethos of learning and study, what with them being in the business of education? I can't see your argument for segregated education between the ages of 5 and 16/18, if there's no valid reason for continuing segregation thereafter. (Unless you believe we should have faith-based FE and HE institutions too?)
Of course they should but primary and secondary schools are about much more than learning and study. They have children at their formative years, all our children, and as such are hugely character forming particularly in how they deal with things like civic responsibility, self-worth, respect for others in the community, pastoral care, professional growth, the less fortunate, the arts, sports etc... These are rarely central planks of HE and FE here though arguably the liberal arts colleges in the US would place greater importance on these. HE and FE here are businesses concerned with delivering very specific courses of study which no one has to attend. Two very important differences with primary and secondary.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 05:56:26 PM
I can't see your argument for segregated education between the ages of 5 and 16/18
I can't see it myself, though that shouldn't be strange because nowhere have I ever argued for segregated education at any age.
Well you appear to be arguing for the status quo, unless i've missed something. And the status quo is segregated.
Quote from: Main Street on January 31, 2013, 07:30:01 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 06:04:50 PM
My point wasn't primarily related to cost - although the different sectors in NI has led to under-capacity in many schools, where one area is served by several schools in different sectors, and as such, is hardly efficient. You might have a faith school paying its way, but forcing a state school to run at significant financial cost.
The key issue here is the continued segregation of children in a segregated society. Weighing up the impact on wider society, i'm not convinced that parental choice is an adequate reason to maintain the status quo. I'm also not convinced that current parental choices would be the same if a proper inclusive state sector was established.
If the state does not provide the possibility for proper integrated schools where national cultural identity/language/history/ sports/music is a part of the experience, then why should a nationalist family even contemplate sending their children to anything other than the nearest catholic primary/secondary school?
The current state education model is a dead duck for a 'desegregation' of education.
Desegregation cannot be forced and especially where no proper desegregated model exists.
If the state wants to expand the existing integrated school model, then let them establish more integrated schools in areas where there are none. Or deconstruct an existing state school and transform it into an integrated model. Afaia the integrated schools are popular and oversubscribed.
Agreed that it's not simply a matter of adopting the current state sector - the education system should reflect all its pupils - i.e. Irish taught, rugby taught, GAA taught. And yes, there's no point in forcing it when that model doesn't exist. But if there was a political will, a model could be developed - then there'd be no need for an 'integrated' sector at all.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 09:28:11 PM
u appear to be arguing for the status quo, unless i've missed something. And the status quo is segregated.
I want the choice to send my children to a school that accepts, respects and reflects my values and culture - that is very unlikely to be the Alliance version of "integrated" education, which is as I said all about homogeneous little Northern Irish Brits. I couldn't care less about the religious ethos of the school though my preference would be that it's completely secular.
How is it in the North's catholic secondary schools, is religious education a compulsory subject? or just advisable - otherwise you'll be flogged? do you have ... exams ... in RE?
I went to a catholic DLS secondary school in Dublin in the early '70's, maybe there were 2 or 3 of the brethren as teachers out of 30. The only concession to catholicism was a weekly Relig educ class. I found out to my surprise that I could bunk it, they couldn't force me if I didn't want to sit in that class, there was no fuss about my choice.
The RE was dropped completely from the school curriculum in or around our 2nd or 3rd year. Afair, that was the last trace of catholicism.
Apart from the presence of 2 of the brothers, who were the ones who gave all their spare time to the football teams.
Quote from: hardstation on January 31, 2013, 11:11:00 PM
Who gives a fcuk?
As long as all the Gaels in Gaelic Ireland are talking about the Gaelic language in the best of Gaelic tongue in everyday Gaelic life.
As long as all young Gaels accept that their name is Jams O'Donnell and that they shall be beaten on their first day of school if they don't understand this Gaelic fact.
You, obviously.
Quote from: armaghniac on January 31, 2013, 05:11:14 PM
"forced" integrated schooling is a bit suspect as all social engineering of this sort is, when other places are proposing to increase parental choice rather than reduce it. Because of the segregated geography, you'd still have very unbalanced schools unless you engaged in busing. What would you have to do make Clonalig school give the appearance of balance? In reality, the PUL side of the house don't have the confidence to engage in this,unless it is fake, which makes sense as their case is not one that can be exposed to reason. I'd also see a bit of adverse comment that nationalists could simply head along to the local Gaelscoil, and you'd have fake Ulster Scots schools starting up.
All education is "social engineering" if you want to use that term. And yes, a bit of busing would probably be necessary, but in a lot of areas it wouldn't be much different from the distance they're already traveling.
Quote from: Main Street on January 31, 2013, 07:30:01 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 06:04:50 PM
My point wasn't primarily related to cost - although the different sectors in NI has led to under-capacity in many schools, where one area is served by several schools in different sectors, and as such, is hardly efficient. You might have a faith school paying its way, but forcing a state school to run at significant financial cost.
The key issue here is the continued segregation of children in a segregated society. Weighing up the impact on wider society, i'm not convinced that parental choice is an adequate reason to maintain the status quo. I'm also not convinced that current parental choices would be the same if a proper inclusive state sector was established.
If the state does not provide the possibility for proper integrated schools where national cultural identity/language/history/ sports/music is a part of the experience, then why should a nationalist family even contemplate sending their children to anything other than the nearest catholic primary/secondary school?
The current state education model is a dead duck for a 'desegregation' of education.
Desegregation cannot be forced and especially where no proper desegregated model exists.
If the state wants to expand the existing integrated school model, then let them establish more integrated schools in areas where there are none. Or deconstruct an existing state school and transform it into an integrated model. Afaia the integrated schools are popular and oversubscribed.
On the cost thing, is it a big issue? or just an issue in some situations? is the motivation to desegregate education a cost thing or is it a social issue? Did Belfast City Council sit down and decide the flag flying policy based on 'best cost scenario' or 'best progressive policy decision we can make, that also gives us the least worst cost scenario in policing costs? :)
Peter Robinson said as much last year. He said he'd like to see the state sector made more friendly to Catholics and the nationalist ethos so that it can become more integrated, he acknowledged that in its present form it's not suitable for being truly integrated. Unfortunately that message was lost when SF and the SDLP pounced on him for saying things about the Catholic education sector that made them cry.
Quotebut in a lot of areas it wouldn't be much different from the distance they're already traveling.
What about the other areas?
Quote from: Ulick on January 31, 2013, 10:52:27 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 09:28:11 PM
u appear to be arguing for the status quo, unless i've missed something. And the status quo is segregated.
I want the choice to send my children to a school that accepts, respects and reflects my values and culture - that is very unlikely to be the Alliance version of "integrated" education, which is as I said all about homogeneous little Northern Irish Brits. I couldn't care less about the religious ethos of the school though my preference would be that it's completely secular.
Presumably then you are happy for Catholic maintained school to continue to produce homogeneous little Irish Gaels who are likely to have little or no interaction with young Protestants until the age of 16 or 18?
QuotePresumably then you are happy for Catholic maintained school to continue to produce homogeneous little Irish Gaels who are likely to have little or no interaction with young Protestants until the age of 16 or 18?
Since he expressed a preference for secular schools, presumably he is not particularly concerned with the Catholic maintained sector, but prefers all schools to produce people who are responsible citizens of Ireland with respect for its culture and traditions.
Quote from: armaghniac on February 01, 2013, 08:12:36 PM
QuotePresumably then you are happy for Catholic maintained school to continue to produce homogeneous little Irish Gaels who are likely to have little or no interaction with young Protestants until the age of 16 or 18?
Since he expressed a preference for secular schools, presumably he is not particularly concerned with the Catholic maintained sector, but prefers all schools to produce people who are responsible citizens of Ireland with respect for its culture and traditions.
Is that also respecting peoples culture and traditions who we don't like also?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 01, 2013, 08:17:40 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 01, 2013, 08:12:36 PM
QuotePresumably then you are happy for Catholic maintained school to continue to produce homogeneous little Irish Gaels who are likely to have little or no interaction with young Protestants until the age of 16 or 18?
Since he expressed a preference for secular schools, presumably he is not particularly concerned with the Catholic maintained sector, but prefers all schools to produce people who are responsible citizens of Ireland with respect for its culture and traditions.
Is that also respecting peoples culture and traditions who we don't like also?
;D
You can't beat two nordies having a presumptive conversation in the absence of the appropriate person.
Quote from: Main Street on January 31, 2013, 11:02:26 PM
How is it in the North's catholic secondary schools, is religious education a compulsory subject? or just advisable - otherwise you'll be flogged? do you have ... exams ... in RE?
I went to a catholic DLS secondary school in Dublin in the early '70's, maybe there were 2 or 3 of the brethren as teachers out of 30. The only concession to catholicism was a weekly Relig educ class. I found out to my surprise that I could bunk it, they couldn't force me if I didn't want to sit in that class, there was no fuss about my choice.
The RE was dropped completely from the school curriculum in or around our 2nd or 3rd year. Afair, that was the last trace of catholicism.
Apart from the presence of 2 of the brothers, who were the ones who gave all their spare time to the football teams.
Ya f**k all religion was taught in the Catholic run school I went too, Football (Gaelic) and Basketball were the true religion of the school. Have to say I think it was a good school, religion was mostly a private affair apart from the spedi-Gonalez prayer before some classes, so fast you were hardly full stood up before you were starting to sit down again. From talking to people who went to Catholic schools in the North and in Britain, it seems ye did religion as if it was important, f**k that for shit. I'm glad the brothers in ours prioritised things that mattered like education, sport and good citizenship.
Quote from: Hardy on January 31, 2013, 02:27:00 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 02:12:46 PM
Eating meat/ or not eating meat on Friday was a practice or tradition, an act of self sacrifice, in much the same way as abstaining at Lent still is, and not an obligation attracting a sinful default.
They lied to me about that as well, then. It was one of the six "commandments of the church", as I remember it, which were a sort of local set of bye-laws appended to Moses's stone tablets. Breach had to be confessed in the dark box and it was a venial sin.
As for purgatory and limbo, I think they were just surreptitiously swept away when no one was looking, but without making any provision whatever for the millions of souls languishing there for, among other things ... see meat above.
And ne temere has been replaced by something a little less brazen and arrogant.
I always thought there were seven.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on February 01, 2013, 10:25:59 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 31, 2013, 02:27:00 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 31, 2013, 02:12:46 PM
Eating meat/ or not eating meat on Friday was a practice or tradition, an act of self sacrifice, in much the same way as abstaining at Lent still is, and not an obligation attracting a sinful default.
They lied to me about that as well, then. It was one of the six "commandments of the church", as I remember it, which were a sort of local set of bye-laws appended to Moses's stone tablets. Breach had to be confessed in the dark box and it was a venial sin.
As for purgatory and limbo, I think they were just surreptitiously swept away when no one was looking, but without making any provision whatever for the millions of souls languishing there for, among other things ... see meat above.
And ne temere has been replaced by something a little less brazen and arrogant.
I always thought there were seven.
Ah no. Don't be mixing up Deadly Sins with Commandments.
I checked with Fr. Google. Here they are:
The Six Commandments of the Church
To hear Mass on Sundays and Holydays of Obligation.
To fast and abstain on the days appointed.
To confess at least once a year.
To recieve the Holy Eucharist during Easter time.
To contribute to the support of our Pastors.
Not to marry persons who are not Catholics, or who are related to us within three degrees of kindred, nor privately without witnesses, nor to solemnize marriage at forbidden times.
Quote from: Hardy on February 01, 2013, 10:40:03 PM
I checked with Fr. Google. Here they are:
The Six Commandments of the Church
To hear Mass on Sundays and Holydays of Obligation.
To fast and abstain on the days appointed.
To confess at least once a year.
To recieve the Holy Eucharist during Easter time.
To contribute to the support of our Pastors.
Not to marry persons who are not Catholics, or who are related to us within three degrees of kindred, nor privately without witnesses, nor to solemnize marriage at forbidden times.
Hardy
Do you reject Satan and all his empty promises?
Quote from: armaghniac on February 01, 2013, 06:29:26 PM
Quotebut in a lot of areas it wouldn't be much different from the distance they're already traveling.
What about the other areas?
Build new schools.
Quote from: seafoid on February 01, 2013, 11:00:47 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 01, 2013, 10:40:03 PM
I checked with Fr. Google. Here they are:
The Six Commandments of the Church
To hear Mass on Sundays and Holydays of Obligation.
To fast and abstain on the days appointed.
To confess at least once a year.
To recieve the Holy Eucharist during Easter time.
To contribute to the support of our Pastors.
Not to marry persons who are not Catholics, or who are related to us within three degrees of kindred, nor privately without witnesses, nor to solemnize marriage at forbidden times.
Hardy
Do you reject Satan and all his empty promises?
Are you sure they're empty?
QuoteDo you reject Satan and all his empty promises?
maybe they had that in Meath, around South Armagh I'm pretty sure it was "Do you reject Britain and all their empty promises", but then Britain and Satan are much the same.
Quote from: armaghniac on February 01, 2013, 11:59:54 PM
...Britain and Satan are much the same.
What have you got against the Scots and Welsh?
Quote from: seafoid on February 01, 2013, 11:00:47 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 01, 2013, 10:40:03 PM
I checked with Fr. Google. Here they are:
The Six Commandments of the Church
To hear Mass on Sundays and Holydays of Obligation.
To fast and abstain on the days appointed.
To confess at least once a year.
To recieve the Holy Eucharist during Easter time.
To contribute to the support of our Pastors.
Not to marry persons who are not Catholics, or who are related to us within three degrees of kindred, nor privately without witnesses, nor to solemnize marriage at forbidden times.
Hardy
Do you reject Satan and all his empty promises?
I do. Sure he's just another religious fanatic.
Quote from: seafoid on February 01, 2013, 11:00:47 PM
Do you reject Satan and all his empty promises?
In all fairness that is a bit of a loaded question. The poor fella was just trying to take over the place, but when the throne was already occupied he ended up going to the underworld and ruled it instead. Sure somebody had to do it. Fair play to him for stepping up to the plate and taking on such a tricky job.
Quote from: Ulick on January 31, 2013, 10:52:27 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 31, 2013, 09:28:11 PM
u appear to be arguing for the status quo, unless i've missed something. And the status quo is segregated.
I want the choice to send my children to a school that accepts, respects and reflects my values and culture - that is very unlikely to be the Alliance version of "integrated" education, which is as I said all about homogeneous little Northern Irish Brits. I couldn't care less about the religious ethos of the school though my preference would be that it's completely secular.
Alliance have proposed the idea of a single secular sector, but Alliance wouldn't/couldn't dictate the values and culture of the system - the parents, pupils, teachers and community will shape the school. And whilst Alliance may be very 'Norn Iron', I don't believe they'd be suggesting schools without GAA or schools that didn't offer Irish. If you're preference is for secular education, then I can't see what you're opposed to.