Alliance showing their true colours now

[Milltown Row2]

I'm not necessary in favour of integrated schools, I'm in favour of good schooling without the need to press home one or any religion. I'd be more interested in knowing about all religions, their beliefs and from that be able to make a judgement on them (if needs be)

I think it's been well documented the hazards of having religion imposing itself on governments care centres the 'bad boys homes' in the past and even in schools. Can protestants go to Catholic schools and not be involved in the holy stuff? I know when I went to school to even question the need to not do confession in school once a month got me detention and parents brought up to the school. To question things catholic related while in RE also ended badly, inclusive only if you accept it, not inclusive if you question it

[trueblue1234]

MR2 the catholic church is inclusive,open to one and all who accepts its beliefs.But what has that got to do with integrated education tackling sectarianism? Too many people on this thread venting anti Catholicism,and not dealing with the main issue,which is whether or not integrated education will reduce or eliminate sectarianism.

It seems that many fear that it would.

Do you believe people opposed to the abolishment of Catholic schooling are sectarian?

Not in the narrow sense in which the word is generally used - i.e. that they, as a characteristic of their group, hate, mistrust, avoid or discriminate against people who are not of their religion. But separating people by religion to administer their education (or for any purpose) is by definition sectarian in the broad sense.

True but the problem at the minute is that what they are offering in a state school doesn't match what some parents want for their children in a schooling environment. Personally I would want to send my child to a school that would provide good education and will give my child the opportunity to experience the culture of the GAA through they're school life if that is what they wish. I prefer this to a school that views soccer or rugby on a higher level than football. I'd like my child to be given a taste of learning Irish from an early age to see if it ignites an interest. And I would like these options to be provided by the school. Most state schools aren't doing this so in my opinion until they start to offer a genuine alternative to Catholic schooling then I would not support the scraping of catholic schooling. If they can do this then I would have no problem with truly intergrated education. 

[AQMP]

I'm not necessary in favour of integrated schools, I'm in favour of good schooling without the need to press home one or any religion. I'd be more interested in knowing about all religions, their beliefs and from that be able to make a judgement on them (if needs be)

I think it's been well documented the hazards of having religion imposing itself on governments care centres the 'bad boys homes' in the past and even in schools. Can protestants go to Catholic schools and not be involved in the holy stuff? I know when I went to school to even question the need to not do confession in school once a month got me detention and parents brought up to the school. To question things catholic related while in RE also ended badly, inclusive only if you accept it, not inclusive if you question it

Yes.

I'll just make a couple of points.  I'm broadly in favour of one sector for all kids as long as it delivers good education.  Personally I don't think it's a good idea to put reconciliation between the various communities in the North as the prime objective of an education system.

Integrated education is part of the solution to reducing sectarianism in NI, it is not the solution.  I don't want to be too pessimistic but I think we're still a long way from the kids of Ardoyne and Glenbryn and Short Strand and the Lower Newtownards Road going to school together.  Of course that doesn't mean we should stop working towards that end.

Lastly I was educated at a well known Catholic grammar school in Belfast during the 1970s.  The priests there ran a very strict discipline regime there.  But I would have to say that debate in RE (and other) classes was very open.  We often questioned the priests on aspects of Catholic doctrine without our parents getting a threatening phone call from the Provisional Redemptorist Brigade.  I remember one great class where the priest ignored the text book and he spent 45 mins explaining to us how he reconciled being a Physics teacher (and therefore a scientist at heart) with being a believer.  It was great stuff.

[Milltown Row2]

I'm not necessary in favour of integrated schools, I'm in favour of good schooling without the need to press home one or any religion. I'd be more interested in knowing about all religions, their beliefs and from that be able to make a judgement on them (if needs be)

I think it's been well documented the hazards of having religion imposing itself on governments care centres the 'bad boys homes' in the past and even in schools. Can protestants go to Catholic schools and not be involved in the holy stuff? I know when I went to school to even question the need to not do confession in school once a month got me detention and parents brought up to the school. To question things catholic related while in RE also ended badly, inclusive only if you accept it, not inclusive if you question it

Yes.

I'll just make a couple of points.  I'm broadly in favour of one sector for all kids as long as it delivers good education.  Personally I don't think it's a good idea to put reconciliation between the various communities in the North as the prime objective of an education system.

Integrated education is part of the solution to reducing sectarianism in NI, it is not the solution.  I don't want to be too pessimistic but I think we're still a long way from the kids of Ardoyne and Glenbryn and Short Strand and the Lower Newtownards Road going to school together.  Of course that doesn't mean we should stop working towards that end.

Lastly I was educated at a well known Catholic grammar school in Belfast during the 1970s.  The priests there ran a very strict discipline regime there.  But I would have to say that debate in RE (and other) classes was very open.  We often questioned the priests on aspects of Catholic doctrine without our parents getting a threatening phone call from the Provisional Redemptorist Brigade.  I remember one great class where the priest ignored the text book and he spent 45 mins explaining to us how he reconciled being a Physics teacher (and therefore a scientist at heart) with being a believer.  It was great stuff.

I was just unlucky then, I ended up with a clip around the ear and detention!!

[cadence]

Cadence, I said it was open to all "who accept its beliefs". Members of the LGBT community do not accept its beliefs. Like it or not, the root of all Christian faiths are centred on the teachings of Christ and other biblical content, and again like it or not, these teachings, taking the lead from the bible, condemn homosexuality. If anything all protestant churches are more strident in their condemnation of the lifestyles of the LGBT community than the Catholic Church is, and to complain about any Christian church (never mind catholic) not being open to them is akin to complaining about the OO now allowing catholics to join. If you cant accept the rules then you cannot expect to be allowed to join, I'm afraid.

Once again this is irrelevant to the debate as to the value of integrated education in terms of reducing or eliminating sectarianism.

I read it correctly the first time.  Religions are a support system. Like any support system, there are rules, do I take my shoes off, when do I bow or kneel, what do members of our group belive in etc. The who makes the rules, how are they communicated, when do we get to change the rules and by what means, all of this is significant. Human support systems, the healthy ones at least, are open to others going and coming and to scrutiny. Closed systems where entry is difficult or nigh on impossible unless you know someone and can be trusted to not challenge or question wha goes on in the system are always the systems that have imbalances of power and abusive behaviour taking place

Don't take this the wrong way, there is empathy for the oppression of Catholics, but by staying as the oppressed you get stuck, saying the same things over and over again as the reason why you are in a particular situation. Do you not see the benefits of reaching out to like minded protestants who want to end sectarianism? You have to take more meaning from it than we are oppressed in order to move forward. There has to be an and..? There also has to be an acceptance and ownership of our own shitty behaviour. Entrenched identities of oppression will stay put, saying the same things over and over, like a one trick pony. We have to become better than we were before or we accept by anger, cynicism and pessimism. What do you think?

[AQMP]

I'm not necessary in favour of integrated schools, I'm in favour of good schooling without the need to press home one or any religion. I'd be more interested in knowing about all religions, their beliefs and from that be able to make a judgement on them (if needs be)

I think it's been well documented the hazards of having religion imposing itself on governments care centres the 'bad boys homes' in the past and even in schools. Can protestants go to Catholic schools and not be involved in the holy stuff? I know when I went to school to even question the need to not do confession in school once a month got me detention and parents brought up to the school. To question things catholic related while in RE also ended badly, inclusive only if you accept it, not inclusive if you question it

Yes.

I'll just make a couple of points.  I'm broadly in favour of one sector for all kids as long as it delivers good education.  Personally I don't think it's a good idea to put reconciliation between the various communities in the North as the prime objective of an education system.

Integrated education is part of the solution to reducing sectarianism in NI, it is not the solution.  I don't want to be too pessimistic but I think we're still a long way from the kids of Ardoyne and Glenbryn and Short Strand and the Lower Newtownards Road going to school together.  Of course that doesn't mean we should stop working towards that end.

Lastly I was educated at a well known Catholic grammar school in Belfast during the 1970s.  The priests there ran a very strict discipline regime there.  But I would have to say that debate in RE (and other) classes was very open.  We often questioned the priests on aspects of Catholic doctrine without our parents getting a threatening phone call from the Provisional Redemptorist Brigade.  I remember one great class where the priest ignored the text book and he spent 45 mins explaining to us how he reconciled being a Physics teacher (and therefore a scientist at heart) with being a believer.  It was great stuff.

I was just unlucky then, I ended up with a clip around the ear and detention!!

You probably deserved it!

[armaghniac]

I remember one great class where the priest ignored the text book and he spent 45 mins explaining to us how he reconciled being a Physics teacher (and therefore a scientist at heart) with being a believer.  It was great stuff.

Having been to school around the same time, I had one narrowminded religion teacher who was an absolute disgrace and who probably drove more people out of the Catholic church than Cromwell.  However, I also had a subsequent teacher who was an erudite individual, more than happy to discuss a wide ranging set of topics,  who  undid a lot of the damage.  I also had a teacher who wasn't a profound philosopher,  but very much a "decent skin" and a good proponent for religion in practice. I think that difference was very much a feature of the Catholic church at the time, except the better schools had a higher proportion of the erudite type of teacher.

[cadence]

I was expelled from a convent for having long hair and being obsessed by black Sabbath, iron maiden, Judas priest, dio etc. They thought I was possessed and had a priest in to chat to me. I sat in silent protest and got expelled for my sins. Those were the days.

[AQMP]

I was expelled from a convent for having long hair and being obsessed by black Sabbath, iron maiden, Judas priest, dio etc. They thought I was possessed and had a priest in to chat to me. I sat in silent protest and got expelled for my sins. Those were the days.

Again, looks like you deserved it!!

[T Fearon]

Cadence, there is no means of changing faith rules I'm afraid. The basis of faith, the Bible, is non changeable. If the thrust of all religious sects is to save sinners from final damnation, on account of sin,they are unlikely therefore to change the rules to accommodate sins (as they would perceive to be) practised by some of their members, for PR purposes.

Now whether you like reliogious sects or loathe them, you have to admire their steadfastness in the face of global criticism.

[muppet]

I was expelled from a convent for having long hair and being obsessed by black Sabbath, iron maiden, Judas priest, dio etc. They thought I was possessed and had a priest in to chat to me. I sat in silent protest and got expelled for my sins. Those were the days.

Dat you Jimmy?

[Jeepers Creepers]

Cadence, there is no means of changing faith rules I'm afraid. The basis of faith, the Bible, is non changeable. If the thrust of all religious sects is to save sinners from final damnation, on account of sin,they are unlikely therefore to change the rules to accommodate sins (as they would perceive to be) practised by some of their members, for PR purposes.

Now whether you like reliogious sects or loathe them, you have to admire their steadfastness in the face of global criticism.

[/b]

or stobborness in admitting they are at times wrong  ?

[cadence]

Cadence, there is no means of changing faith rules I'm afraid. The basis of faith, the Bible, is non changeable. If the thrust of all religious sects is to save sinners from final damnation, on account of sin,they are unlikely therefore to change the rules to accommodate sins (as they would perceive to be) practised by some of their members, for PR purposes.

Now whether you like reliogious sects or loathe them, you have to admire their steadfastness in the face of global criticism.

Ah now c'mon, history and the reformation would prove otherwise.

Btw, I reckon I was expelled because they never read the lyrics and it they did they did so as is their normal method, literally and not in a metaphorical or philosophical manner, just like a literal interpretation of religious texts. You should listen to more metal....

[Hardy]

Cadence, there is no means of changing faith rules I'm afraid.

Yeah right. Meat on Friday, purgatory, ne temere, limbo etc.

[T Fearon]

Eating meat/ or not eating meat on Friday was a practice or tradition, an act of self sacrifice, in much the same way as abstaining at Lent still is, and not an obligation attracting a sinful default.  I wasn't aware that the doctrines of Purgatory and Limbo had been jettisoned, they didn't print that in the Parish Bulletin!

The question here is do Churches and Faith Groups exist to save souls or become popular with people?

Still we are veering ever farther away from the question of whether or not segregated education contributes to corrosive sectarianism, as witnessed in the six counties.