Dont know if theres a thread on this already - sorry if there is but with the deadline looming and so few people having paid to date whats the general concensus here? I havent paid it either but probably will next week some time. I guess a property tax is a must for the country to begin steady revenue streams in the future.
its only a hundred euros.. it'll cost you more than that to get a solicitor to represent you when they take you to court
Quote from: comethekingdom on March 20, 2012, 09:07:25 PM
Dont know if theres a thread on this already - sorry if there is but with the deadline looming and so few people having paid to date whats the general concensus here? I havent paid it either but probably will next week some time. I guess a property tax is a must for the country to begin steady revenue streams in the future.
But it's not a property tax, if it was you wouldn't be paying the same amount as Michael Smurfit and Henry Mountcharles.
Quote from: lawnseed on March 20, 2012, 09:10:05 PM
its only a hundred euros.. it'll cost you more than that to get a solicitor to represent you when they take you to court
Didn't expect you to take that line lawnseed!
The real protest should be against another event that happens on the 31st March. That day the Irish Government gives €3.1bn of taxpayers money to IBRC (Anglo & INBS) who will give it to the Irish Central Bank who will then destroy it.
On the one hand we have a Government who seem afraid to, or are incapable of, finding a way out of Lenihan's disastrous decisions. On the other hand, against them we have a bunch of left-wing politicians who always fight the stupid fight. They are protesting over the €100 and trying to get people not to pay and doing f*ck all about the €3.1bn. That is the one we should not pay.
Paid yesterday. A tax on property is a relatively fair way to gather income for the state. It should never have been done away with in the first place.
Quotesame amount as Michael Smurfit
Smurfit is a tax exile in Monaco and pays shag all tax in ROI
Quote from: muppet on March 20, 2012, 10:03:41 PM
The real protest should be against another event that happens on the 31st March. That day the Irish Government gives €3.1bn of taxpayers money to IBRC (Anglo & INBS) who will give it to the Irish Central Bank who will then destroy it.
On the one hand we have a Government who seem afraid to, or are incapable of, finding a way out of Lenihan's disastrous decisions. On the other hand, against them we have a bunch of left-wing politicians who always fight the stupid fight. They are protesting over the €100 and trying to get people not to pay and doing f*ck all about the €3.1bn. That is the one we should not pay.
muppet you know quite well they are not protesting over the €100 but the unfair system which imposes the same levy on households regardless of property value or income.
Quote from: Ulick on March 20, 2012, 10:51:39 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 20, 2012, 10:03:41 PM
The real protest should be against another event that happens on the 31st March. That day the Irish Government gives €3.1bn of taxpayers money to IBRC (Anglo & INBS) who will give it to the Irish Central Bank who will then destroy it.
On the one hand we have a Government who seem afraid to, or are incapable of, finding a way out of Lenihan's disastrous decisions. On the other hand, against them we have a bunch of left-wing politicians who always fight the stupid fight. They are protesting over the €100 and trying to get people not to pay and doing f*ck all about the €3.1bn. That is the one we should not pay.
muppet you know quite well they are not protesting over the €100 but the unfair system which imposes the same levy on households regardless of property value or income.
How is it unfair?
I pay the same for a loaf of bread as Michael Smurfit. Are you protesting about that too?
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 20, 2012, 09:52:14 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 20, 2012, 09:10:05 PM
its only a hundred euros.. it'll cost you more than that to get a solicitor to represent you when they take you to court
Didn't expect you to take that line lawnseed!
you'll never miss a cut off a sliced loaf maguire. whats the difference if your getting shagged up the arse.. its gets so you dont even notice... this is what the irish voters want.. bend over paddy
100 euro to get the fish on the hook. Next year try 500 or 600 for size. Your car tax will probably go up another 100 too. There is no fight left in us. We will be raped and pilaged by the big boys in europe with the help of their lackies in fg, the cowardly ball-less traitors that they are.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 20, 2012, 11:24:14 PM
100 euro to get the fish on the hook. Next year try 500 or 600 for size. Your car tax will probably go up another 100 too. There is no fight left in us. We will be raped and pilaged by the big boys in europe with the help of their lackies in fg, the cowardly ball-less traitors that they are.
I am paying €2,000 a year for the next 20 odd years which will be given to Anglo and then set ablaze. At least the €100 will stay in circulation and come back into the economy. The €3.1bn is taken out and burned.
Joe Higgins will get re-elected because of his protest. That is all that matters.
Quote from: lawnseed on March 20, 2012, 09:10:05 PM
its only a hundred euros.. it'll cost you more than that to get a solicitor to represent you when they take you to court
They'll have some job taking a million people to court.
I'm not paying it.
Quote from: Gazzler on March 20, 2012, 11:29:13 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 20, 2012, 09:10:05 PM
its only a hundred euros.. it'll cost you more than that to get a solicitor to represent you when they take you to court
They'll have some job taking a million people to court.
I'm not paying it.
cop yourself on.. you'll pay it and if you dont you'll be with a handful of people who dont. the irish are sheep they WILL pay. they'll do whatever rte tell them to do like they always have. baaah! people talk about not paying then they sneek down and pay or go on-line.. but mouth off about not paying. pay up endas advisers need a rise
Us nordies have been paying rates on our properties for years. As myles said this sweetner is to get everyone into the system, just wait till the southern government come at u all next year. I dont think people in the south realise that they are going to pay big time for the greed. Enda kenny is after the peoples savings and he is going to get it one way or another.
Quote from: RMDrive on March 20, 2012, 10:35:41 PM
Paid yesterday. A tax on property is a relatively fair way to gather income for the state. It should never have been done away with in the first place.
Problem is that when property tax was done away with, in '77, it was replaced by other forms of taxation. Income tax, VAT, and the old reliables, fags, booze and motor fuel, got hammered.
It's been a case of double whammy all the way from the early 80s onwards.
Now we are on the point of re-introducing domestic rates. The present government has let it be known that this €100 household tax is just the forerunner to a full-blooded property tax to operate from next year.
Now, nearly all the old forms of taxation have been brought back but the ones that replaced them are still in operation—a classic double whammy.
It seems we are going to have a water tax in the near future.
We are already paying refuse collection charges.
As I see it, the soon-to-be-reintroduced property tax will bring no benefits to anyone forced to fork out for it as service charges have to be paid as well.
There has been no wage/pension increases for a number of years and the likelihood is that there will be none for the foreseeable future.
More and more households are being forced into poverty as the cost of living goes up and the taxation burden, direct and indirect, steadily rises.
How the hell can anyone expect to get the economy moving again if increased taxation, with less disposable income as a consequence, appears to be the only way forward?
I'm paying nothing!
I can't believe how any PAYE worker is against the household charge.
If the household charge is abolished, then income tax rates will have to be increased. The money has to come from somewhere. PAYE workers already subsidise those on social welfare more than enough and we don't need to be giving more incentives for people not to work.
A flat rate for everyone who has a house is very fair. And in future years it will increase, with those in bigger houses paying more.
Quote from: Hound on March 21, 2012, 07:35:51 AM
I can't believe how any PAYE worker is against the household charge.
If the household charge is abolished, then income tax rates will have to be increased. The money has to come from somewhere. PAYE workers already subsidise those on social welfare more than enough and we don't need to be giving more incentives for people not to work.
A flat rate for everyone who has a house is very fair. And in future years it will increase, with those in bigger houses paying more.
Wouldnt agree with that. If this charge is to fund local authorities, then people in rural areas need to pay the most. This is where you most often see half a dozen lads leaning on shovels or looking into a hole being dug by a jcb.
Taxation best practice internationally, for non-income-based taxes, would require that, among several factors: (a) taxes are equitable, and are seen to be so, and (b) they should be to fund a particular consequence(s) of the activity being taxed (ring-fenced). There's a history of our Depth of Finance flouting these and other rules for many years, and this is another example of it.
The problem has its roots in Jack Lynch's disastrous removal of the local authority rates system in 1977; it has never been successfully replaced. Even the commercial rates system has only been reviewed recently and that has been an unmitigated disaster for businesses - the least transparent review I've ever seen, anyway.
This will go on for years and years; it could even be the issue that resurrects FF.
Quote from: Billys Boots on March 21, 2012, 11:44:05 AM
Taxation best practice internationally, for non-income-based taxes, would require that, among several factors: (a) taxes are equitable, and are seen to be so, and (b) they should be to fund a particular consequence(s) of the activity being taxed (ring-fenced). There's a history of our Depth of Finance flouting these and other rules for many years, and this is another example of it.
The problem has its roots in Jack Lynch's disastrous removal of the local authority rates system in 1977; it has never been successfully replaced. Even the commercial rates system has only been reviewed recently and that has been an unmitigated disaster for businesses - the least transparent review I've ever seen, anyway.
This will go on for years and years; it could even be the issue that resurrects FF.
Which would be ironic in the extreme.
Irony is one of the very few things we're good at.
Paid it few weeks back.
All this talk that it is a forerunner to something else has me puzzled. Any attempt to level it on house size or valuation will have so many issues and problems. They say that it is to pay for local services at local council level, therefore the use of these services are outside the home and not related to ones house or ones income. They can't say its a water charge as in rural parts many people have their own water supply or on group schemes.
As someone posted, PAYE workers can't take all the burden but will do if this isn't introduced in some format. Worse is ahead.
I can see a few high profile prosecutions for non-payment in the early days and a few martyrs doing time over it.
Already paid it.
The days of the " free lunch I'm paying nothing vote for me because I'm against evrything that's not nice" that have lasted since 1977 are now gone.
We will be paying property taxes like most other European countries from now for ever and a day. Hopefully it will result in future generations putting their energies into building a productive economy - not building overpriced houses and trying to make living on rental income an industry.
Somebody mentioned the irony of FF maybe coming back to life by being against this property tax.
The irony is already there - pinkshirt ex builder/developer/owes €48m Wallace is part of the motley group of populist eejit TDs who are opposing this charge.
As a nation we complain all day about things been unfair this way and that, yet we go out and bet on Chelthenham, the Football and drink like its running out on days like last Saturday. So we can set 100 quid aside for this yet we can't pay our taxes? Very strange.
Therefore based on the obvious hypocrisy in the country currently I have a solution that would ensure all / most people would pay.
Set 10 mil aside out of the 160mil target and offer 10 prizes of 1mil to people that pay, i.e. when you do pay you get a number. The draw would be based on the house / registered number drawn, 1st 10 out of the hat are millionaires.
'Q' the rush to pay by Paddy when there is a wee gamble involved!!
p.s. If they don't reach the 160m then they can reduce the prize fund from say 10 to 8 if only 150mil is raised.
Quote from: muppet on March 20, 2012, 10:03:41 PM
The real protest should be against another event that happens on the 31st March. That day the Irish Government gives €3.1bn of taxpayers money to IBRC (Anglo & INBS) who will give it to the Irish Central Bank who will then destroy it.
On the one hand we have a Government who seem afraid to, or are incapable of, finding a way out of Lenihan's disastrous decisions. On the other hand, against them we have a bunch of left-wing politicians who always fight the stupid fight. They are protesting over the €100 and trying to get people not to pay and doing f*ck all about the €3.1bn. That is the one we should not pay.
Don't disagree with you. (I'm actually one of the 15% who have paid through gritted teeth.) However the €100 is the one that the ordinary plebs feel that they have some control over; we can protest all we want about the €3.1bn but short of storming Dáil Éireann with Joe McNamara's truck there's nothing we can do to stop it.
Quote from: LaurelEye on March 21, 2012, 03:47:29 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 20, 2012, 10:03:41 PM
The real protest should be against another event that happens on the 31st March. That day the Irish Government gives €3.1bn of taxpayers money to IBRC (Anglo & INBS) who will give it to the Irish Central Bank who will then destroy it.
On the one hand we have a Government who seem afraid to, or are incapable of, finding a way out of Lenihan's disastrous decisions. On the other hand, against them we have a bunch of left-wing politicians who always fight the stupid fight. They are protesting over the €100 and trying to get people not to pay and doing f*ck all about the €3.1bn. That is the one we should not pay.
Don't disagree with you. (I'm actually one of the 15% who have paid through gritted teeth.) However the €100 is the one that the ordinary plebs feel that they have some control over; we can protest all we want about the €3.1bn but short of storming Dáil Éireann with Joe McNamara's truck there's nothing we can do to stop it.
A protest over the €3.1bn would be one that could see David McWilliams, Colm McCarthy, Constantine Gordkiev, Morgan Kelly march alongside the likes of Joe Higgins, Claire Daly etc. It would be neither a left nor right wing protest and it would undoubtedly be supported by the vast majority of people.
The €100 protest is a stunt.
you see.. of course people will pay. truth is most already have. just wait until its 2000euro per annum like us nordies pay. that will test you intestinal fortitude :'(
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2012, 06:29:28 PM
you see.. of course people will pay. truth is most already have. just wait until its 2000euro per annum like us nordies pay. that will test you intestinal fortitude :'(
Yes biut you get NHS, i had to pay fifty euro to doctir for head cold recently
Why the fcuk were you going to the Dr to see about a head cold?
It's nancy hewers like you driving up the cost of health care.
Won't be paying.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on March 21, 2012, 08:11:46 PM
Quote from: Benny Sweeney on March 21, 2012, 06:47:53 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2012, 06:29:28 PM
you see.. of course people will pay. truth is most already have. just wait until its 2000euro per annum like us nordies pay. that will test you intestinal fortitude :'(
Yes biut you get NHS, i had to pay fifty euro to doctir for head cold recently
Health & Social care up here is covered from general UK-wide taxation, not from the rates.
Also you went to a doctor to see about a head cold? Unless you had to get a medical certificate, that's €50 down the drain right there.
I thought it was some thing more serious
Quote from: muppet on March 21, 2012, 04:36:59 PM
Quote from: LaurelEye on March 21, 2012, 03:47:29 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 20, 2012, 10:03:41 PM
The real protest should be against another event that happens on the 31st March. That day the Irish Government gives €3.1bn of taxpayers money to IBRC (Anglo & INBS) who will give it to the Irish Central Bank who will then destroy it.
On the one hand we have a Government who seem afraid to, or are incapable of, finding a way out of Lenihan's disastrous decisions. On the other hand, against them we have a bunch of left-wing politicians who always fight the stupid fight. They are protesting over the €100 and trying to get people not to pay and doing f*ck all about the €3.1bn. That is the one we should not pay.
Don't disagree with you. (I'm actually one of the 15% who have paid through gritted teeth.) However the €100 is the one that the ordinary plebs feel that they have some control over; we can protest all we want about the €3.1bn but short of storming Dáil Éireann with Joe McNamara's truck there's nothing we can do to stop it.
A protest over the €3.1bn would be one that could see David McWilliams, Colm McCarthy, Constantine Gordkiev, Morgan Kelly march alongside the likes of Joe Higgins, Claire Daly etc. It would be neither a left nor right wing protest and it would undoubtedly be supported by the vast majority of people.
The €100 protest is a stunt.
I think protesting over the 3.1 bn would be as well. The ECB isn't going to listen . Maybe if the budget deficit was cut to zero. Otherwise no chance. It's brutal, power .
Quote from: Benny Sweeney on March 21, 2012, 08:16:06 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on March 21, 2012, 08:11:46 PM
Quote from: Benny Sweeney on March 21, 2012, 06:47:53 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2012, 06:29:28 PM
you see.. of course people will pay. truth is most already have. just wait until its 2000euro per annum like us nordies pay. that will test you intestinal fortitude :'(
Yes biut you get NHS, i had to pay fifty euro to doctir for head cold recently
Health & Social care up here is covered from general UK-wide taxation, not from the rates.
Also you went to a doctor to see about a head cold? Unless you had to get a medical certificate, that's €50 down the drain right there.
I thought it was some thing more serious
Man flu?
Quote from: lawnseed on March 20, 2012, 11:20:38 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 20, 2012, 09:52:14 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 20, 2012, 09:10:05 PM
its only a hundred euros.. it'll cost you more than that to get a solicitor to represent you when they take you to court
Didn't expect you to take that line lawnseed!
you'll never miss a cut off a sliced loaf maguire. whats the difference if your getting shagged up the arse.. its gets so you dont even notice... this is what the irish voters want.. bend over paddy
But surely it's the thin end of the wedge? Is it not the principle of the thing? I can't believe you're advocating that people should be 'sheep'.
Quote from: seafoid on March 21, 2012, 08:17:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 21, 2012, 04:36:59 PM
Quote from: LaurelEye on March 21, 2012, 03:47:29 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 20, 2012, 10:03:41 PM
The real protest should be against another event that happens on the 31st March. That day the Irish Government gives €3.1bn of taxpayers money to IBRC (Anglo & INBS) who will give it to the Irish Central Bank who will then destroy it.
On the one hand we have a Government who seem afraid to, or are incapable of, finding a way out of Lenihan's disastrous decisions. On the other hand, against them we have a bunch of left-wing politicians who always fight the stupid fight. They are protesting over the €100 and trying to get people not to pay and doing f*ck all about the €3.1bn. That is the one we should not pay.
Don't disagree with you. (I'm actually one of the 15% who have paid through gritted teeth.) However the €100 is the one that the ordinary plebs feel that they have some control over; we can protest all we want about the €3.1bn but short of storming Dáil Éireann with Joe McNamara's truck there's nothing we can do to stop it.
A protest over the €3.1bn would be one that could see David McWilliams, Colm McCarthy, Constantine Gordkiev, Morgan Kelly march alongside the likes of Joe Higgins, Claire Daly etc. It would be neither a left nor right wing protest and it would undoubtedly be supported by the vast majority of people.
The €100 protest is a stunt.
I think protesting over the 3.1 bn would be as well. The ECB isn't going to listen . Maybe if the budget deficit was cut to zero. Otherwise no chance. It's brutal, power .
Rumours that Honohan is trying something. (I know).
It might help if we shut the place down for a week with no obvious political ideology or bias.
Quote from: highorlow on March 21, 2012, 02:34:01 PM
As a nation we complain all day about things been unfair this way and that, yet we go out and bet on Chelthenham, the Football and drink like its running out on days like last Saturday. So we can set 100 quid aside for this yet we can't pay our taxes? Very strange.
Shoot people for wanting to spend their hard earned by enjoying themselves at the weekend or during their leisure time rather than being forced to hand over money for the pleasure of having their name registered for more of the same in the years to come. What a complete load of bollocks
Imagine if the anti-Household tax protestors succeed, what happens next? Anyone like to speculate?
Has anyone even though about it?
Quote from: muppet on March 21, 2012, 11:11:52 PM
Imagine if the anti-Household tax protestors succeed, what happens next? Anyone like to speculate?
Has anyone even though about it?
Then we vote no to the blackmail treaty.
i'm not paying it .
Quote from: the Deel Rover on March 22, 2012, 12:14:17 PM
i'm not paying it .
I dunno.
The only people who I can understand being against this are the freeloaders, spongers and those with loads of properties.
A single person on €25k is paying €930 more in income tax per year now than they did in 2008.
Someone on €50k is paying €2,725 more in income tax per year.
Someone on €100k is paying €5,090 more.
So the vast majority of workers are between €1k and €5k worse off, due to income tax alone, than they were 4 years ago. In 2009, 2010 and 2011 there were significant tax hikes.
For 2012 the govt still needs to raise more taxes, but have rightly said we've hit income tax enough. Its time for everyone who holds a property to pay. Given all the tax increases we've had over the last few years its absolutely correct that this new tax is more widely spread. Of course those on welfare shouldnt be exempt - unless they don't own a house.
And if the protestors are successful in getting the household charge revoked, who will be left to pick up the tab? It'll be back completely on income tax payers.
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 22, 2012, 11:47:37 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 21, 2012, 11:11:52 PM
Imagine if the anti-Household tax protestors succeed, what happens next? Anyone like to speculate?
Has anyone even though about it?
Then we vote no to the blackmail treaty.
I am thinking of voting no anyway.
But if a simple €100 tax collapses, then so will the Government. There are some very naive people in opposition who think it will lead to an election, it won't. We will have a Government imposed unelected on us by the EU/ECB, like Greece and Italy. Then there will be no referendum.
Maybe that is what people want.
So it's up to 30% paid this morning. Doesn't look like it's going to hit 50%. Will be interesting to see what happens now. I thing the government need to ensure this is linked directly to local services - taxpayers should see where their money is going. Maybe local authorities should be funded in line with the proportion of householders in their area that paid the charge?
Hound - what price was a litre of petrol in 2008? Its all relative. If local authorities were anything other than a joke run and administered by idiots where waste is their primary output, maybe i would pay this. Where is the reform of local authorities?
Quote from: muppet on March 22, 2012, 01:13:19 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 22, 2012, 11:47:37 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 21, 2012, 11:11:52 PM
Imagine if the anti-Household tax protestors succeed, what happens next? Anyone like to speculate?
Has anyone even though about it?
Then we vote no to the blackmail treaty.
I am thinking of voting no anyway.
But if a simple €100 tax collapses, then so will the Government. There are some very naive people in opposition who think it will lead to an election, it won't. We will have a Government imposed unelected on us by the EU/ECB, like Greece and Italy. Then there will be no referendum.
Maybe that is what people want.
I think people are entitled to protest but they should really see the bigger picture. The country has a budget deficit of 15bn and needs another 3bn pa to repay the effin Anglo debt. That's 18bn or approx 90 euro per head per week for everyone in the country. And it is going to have to get to zero in the next few years. The country is living way beyond its means.
The ECB, FF and the developers have brought the country to this place.
Lads I got a card through the door during the week there, A5 double sided, full colour, Household Charge - final reminder basically giving all the details of what the money is for, where you can pay, who is liable, exempt etc.
Anyway I was wondering was this sent to every house in the country? Or just to a list of people who hadn't paid by whatever day they had sent it out?
In any case, I feel this was an unnecessary waste of money on behalf of the government (printing out x million amount of leaflets, distribution via, I assume, an post who will require to be paid as well). Probably cost the equivalent of 5% of the total amount of households that have already paid the tax!
Quote from: downgirl on March 31, 2012, 11:57:09 PM
Lads I got a card through the door during the week there, A5 double sided, full colour, Household Charge - final reminder basically giving all the details of what the money is for, where you can pay, who is liable, exempt etc.
Anyway I was wondering was this sent to every house in the country? Or just to a list of people who hadn't paid by whatever day they had sent it out?
In any case, I feel this was an unnecessary waste of money on behalf of the government (printing out x million amount of leaflets, distribution via, I assume, an post who will require to be paid as well). Probably cost the equivalent of 5% of the total amount of households that have already paid the tax!
Pay your taxes and there should be no problem. If people paid their taxes the government would not need to waste money reminding you. I doubt it costs anywhere near 5% to print you a letter reminding you of your duty as a resident, it probably costs closer to 0.01%
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on April 01, 2012, 02:39:20 AM
Quote from: downgirl on March 31, 2012, 11:57:09 PM
Lads I got a card through the door during the week there, A5 double sided, full colour, Household Charge - final reminder basically giving all the details of what the money is for, where you can pay, who is liable, exempt etc.
Anyway I was wondering was this sent to every house in the country? Or just to a list of people who hadn't paid by whatever day they had sent it out?
In any case, I feel this was an unnecessary waste of money on behalf of the government (printing out x million amount of leaflets, distribution via, I assume, an post who will require to be paid as well). Probably cost the equivalent of 5% of the total amount of households that have already paid the tax!
Pay your taxes and there should be no problem. If people paid their taxes the government would not need to waste money reminding you. I doubt it costs anywhere near 5% to print you a letter reminding you of your duty as a resident, it probably costs closer to 0.01%
I'm actually renting so it should have gone to my landlord (who owns a whole block of apartments I live in) and I do pay taxes on what I earn. So don't accuse me of not paying taxes.
The problem is, the government has no proper records of who lives where or owns what. That's why people have to 'register' before paying. I assume your flyer didn't have your name or address?
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 31, 2012, 02:18:37 PM
So it's up to 30% paid this morning. Doesn't look like it's going to hit 50%. Will be interesting to see what happens now. I thing the government need to ensure this is linked directly to local services - taxpayers should see where their money is going. Maybe local authorities should be funded in line with the proportion of householders in their area that paid the charge?
It hit 50.3% by the deadline - significant surge at the end (although that's on the basis of the disputed 1.6m figure). No doubt another few percent will follow without being chased, but it will be interesting to see what happens next. Anyone who hasn't paid now owes €111.
Quote from: downgirl on April 01, 2012, 11:14:49 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on April 01, 2012, 02:39:20 AM
Quote from: downgirl on March 31, 2012, 11:57:09 PM
Lads I got a card through the door during the week there, A5 double sided, full colour, Household Charge - final reminder basically giving all the details of what the money is for, where you can pay, who is liable, exempt etc.
Anyway I was wondering was this sent to every house in the country? Or just to a list of people who hadn't paid by whatever day they had sent it out?
In any case, I feel this was an unnecessary waste of money on behalf of the government (printing out x million amount of leaflets, distribution via, I assume, an post who will require to be paid as well). Probably cost the equivalent of 5% of the total amount of households that have already paid the tax!
Pay your taxes and there should be no problem. If people paid their taxes the government would not need to waste money reminding you. I doubt it costs anywhere near 5% to print you a letter reminding you of your duty as a resident, it probably costs closer to 0.01%
I'm actually renting so it should have gone to my landlord (who owns a whole block of apartments I live in) and I do pay taxes on what I earn. So don't accuse me of not paying taxes.
I think you might be confusing her with Tyronegirl
http://www.merrionstreet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/EUIMFmemo.pdf (http://www.merrionstreet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/EUIMFmemo.pdf)
See page 15 of the above document.
It is the memo of understanding between the Troika and The Government, signed by Lenihan and Honohan. It includes a property tax introduced this year and an increase in same next year. FG/Labour have no choice but for some reason are maintaining a pretense of being in charge. They aren't. That was signed away in 2010.
Quote from: muppet on April 01, 2012, 02:29:36 PM
http://www.merrionstreet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/EUIMFmemo.pdf (http://www.merrionstreet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/EUIMFmemo.pdf)
See page 15 of the above document.
It is the memo of understanding between the Troika and The Government, signed by Lenihan and Honohan. It includes a property tax introduced this year and an increase in same next year. FG/Labour have no choice but for some reason are maintaining a pretense of being in charge. They aren't. That was signed away in 2010.
Regardless of the Troika, a property tax is appropriate... and necessary to balance the books, even before any of the banking debt is considered... but it should be properly administered and the the tax payer should be able to see where that money goes.
Yes Maguire it was a 'generic' thing, no name or address.
"It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home" - Enda Kenny (1994)
(http://www.thejournal.ie/media/newjournal/img/ge11/graph-enda-kenny.png)
Quote from: Nally Stand on May 07, 2012, 08:35:35 PM
"It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home" - Enda Kenny (1994)
(http://www.thejournal.ie/media/newjournal/img/ge11/graph-enda-kenny.png)
Laugh Out Loud!! Jokers the lot of them
I have a 4-bedroom house in County Down. I pay £1200 in rates.
My daughter has a 4-bedroom house in Galway and is complaining about a household charge of €100.
This is my understanding of the two nations theory!
Quote from: All of a Sludden on March 21, 2012, 07:39:44 PM
Won't be paying.
The sneaky bastids.
Revenue owe me a not insignificant amount, it has been a battle that was only recently settled on the steps of the high court. I was hoping to get the money before the holidays, in fact we went back to court because of a delay in issuing the refund/costs and now they inform me that processing of that payment has been delayed because I have neglected to pay the Local Property Tax.
Quote from: All of a Sludden on December 16, 2013, 11:46:17 PM
Quote from: All of a Sludden on March 21, 2012, 07:39:44 PM
Won't be paying.
The sneaky bastids.
Revenue owe me a not insignificant amount, it has been a battle that was only recently settled on the steps of the high court. I was hoping to get the money before the holidays, in fact we went back to court because of a delay in issuing the refund/costs and now they inform me that processing of that payment has been delayed because I have neglected to pay the Local Property Tax.
big bro... watching and waiting :(
Quote from: Leo on May 07, 2012, 10:48:00 PM
I have a 4-bedroom house in County Down. I pay £1200 in rates.
My daughter has a 4-bedroom house in Galway and is complaining about a household charge of €100.
This is my understanding of the two nations theory!
And a rose by another name has lots and lots of nasty thorns! ;D
We all pay taxes, north and south, and when all is added up, we are just as badly off as you are.
I imagine that by now your daughter is paying considerably more than €100 annually in household charges and I presume she is also paying a refuse collection charge with water rates to come in 2015.
When domestic rates along with car tax and other forms of direct taxation were abolished in 1976, they were replaced by higher levels of income tax and raised rates of VAT across the board.
In other words, the government was replacing direct taxation as a means to bring in revenue with indirect methods of doing the same thing.
Its double whammy time for us now as bit by bit, the old levies are being re-introduced with no corresponding decrease in VAT, income tax etc.
Your household charges may be much higher than ours but that about as far as it goes. We pay lots more taxes on just about every thing you an think of.
I'd say the percentage of your income that goes in govt. taxes is no higher than mine.
Quote from: Leo on May 07, 2012, 10:48:00 PM
I have a 4-bedroom house in County Down. I pay £1200 in rates.
My daughter has a 4-bedroom house in Galway and is complaining about a household charge of €100.
This is my understanding of the two nations theory!
For your £1200 you get your bins lifted, streets cleaned, recycling services, clean water supply, sewerage, leisure centers, community centres, sports facilities, play-parks, dog wardens, noise wardens, environmental services, building control and a place to go when you die.
For her €100, your daughter gets nothing.
Quote from: Ulick on December 17, 2013, 11:56:34 AM
Quote from: Leo on May 07, 2012, 10:48:00 PM
I have a 4-bedroom house in County Down. I pay £1200 in rates.
My daughter has a 4-bedroom house in Galway and is complaining about a household charge of €100.
This is my understanding of the two nations theory!
For your £1200 you get your bins lifted, streets cleaned, recycling services, clean water supply, sewerage, leisure centers, community centres, sports facilities, play-parks, dog wardens, noise wardens, environmental services, building control and a place to go when you die.
For her €100, your daughter gets nothing.
I don't really agree with this - it is an income stream for the local authorities who provide the litter wardens, water services, roads services, environmental and pollution services, planning services, funding of council staff and councillors and all the other services provided by local authorities.
Quote from: Rois on December 17, 2013, 12:38:29 PM
Quote from: Ulick on December 17, 2013, 11:56:34 AM
Quote from: Leo on May 07, 2012, 10:48:00 PM
I have a 4-bedroom house in County Down. I pay £1200 in rates.
My daughter has a 4-bedroom house in Galway and is complaining about a household charge of €100.
This is my understanding of the two nations theory!
For your £1200 you get your bins lifted, streets cleaned, recycling services, clean water supply, sewerage, leisure centers, community centres, sports facilities, play-parks, dog wardens, noise wardens, environmental services, building control and a place to go when you die.
For her €100, your daughter gets nothing.
I don't really agree with this - it is an income stream for the local authorities who provide the litter wardens, water services, roads services, environmental and pollution services, planning services, funding of council staff and councillors and all the other services provided by local authorities.
Sorry Rois is that not the same thing or am I missing something?
Local authorities (north and south) provide more or less the same 'services' - they're both funded from the public purse, so essentially tax-payers (north and south) pay for everything. As Lar pointed out, the taxes are collected in different ways. Technically undert international taxation rules, if NI are applying rates as the funding instrument for local government, then the rated value should pay for the provision of local government in its entirity - now we know that's hardly the case in NI, don't we?
Quote from: Billys Boots on December 17, 2013, 01:16:17 PM
Local authorities (north and south) provide more or less the same 'services' - they're both funded from the public purse, so essentially tax-payers (north and south) pay for everything. As Lar pointed out, the taxes are collected in different ways. Technically undert international taxation rules, if NI are applying rates as the funding instrument for local government, then the rated value should pay for the provision of local government in its entirity - now we know that's hardly the case in NI, don't we?
They may provide the same services but not with the property tax which I was addressing in reply to Leo's point. However while we are on it as a very frequent visitor to Mexico I would say without much doubt that rate payers in the north are much better off in terms of local services and value for money with the rates than compadres in the south. You can do practically nothing in the south without some fecker standing his hand out.
Let me see. On a Thursday night I can put my bin out and have it collected first thing on a Friday morning for no extra charge. After taking a half day I can take the children over to the swimming pool paying about £3 for the hour (a nice clean and hygienic one at that). After that I can shoot down the toll-free M1 and visit the animal and rare breed sanctuary petting farm at Tannaghmore Gardens (for free) - hell I'll even throw a few logs in the boot of the car for burning later. Then I can either visit the substantial and well maintained play-park or take a nature walk around Oxford Island Nature Reserve (again for no charge and throwing a few logs in the boot). On my way home to Belfast, I'll maybe pick-up a takeaway at the local chipper, it's a good one, clean and hygienic - I know that from the 'stars on the door' sticker provided by my local council. After dinner I might take the children out to Cherryvale or Ormeau Park, both having substantial and well maintain play facilities (for free). While there I can watch the local GAA team play on the council provided football and hurling pitches. After giving the children a bath later (with water I don't have to pay extra for), I'll maybe light the stove - a good job, installed it myself and I know it's safe because local building control came down and certified it (for free). While they were there they took away the old bulky one I couldn't lift (for free). When the children are all down, I might go out for a pint again in a nice clean and hygienic hostelry with jacks you aren't afraid to walk into, because the local council inspect it on a regular basis.
Now I'm a frequent visitor to the south and would stay in Wexford for at least two months of the year as well as other parts of the country. I know for a fact that at each point in the day described above there'll either be someone stood with their hand out or I'd be getting a bill somewhere along the line. And if they're not I'll most likely have to avoid the needles on the ground as the children come down the slide or watch out for broken tiles in the swimming pool as we prepare to jump into heavily chlorinated pissy water.
Quote from: Ulick on December 17, 2013, 01:59:23 PM
Let me see. On a Thursday night I can put my bin out and have it collected first thing on a Friday morning for no extra charge. After taking a half day I can take the children over to the swimming pool paying about £3 for the hour (a nice clean and hygienic one at that). After that I can shoot down the toll-free M1 and visit the animal and rare breed sanctuary petting farm at Tannaghmore Gardens (for free) - hell I'll even throw a few logs in the boot of the car for burning later. Then I can either visit the substantial and well maintained play-park or take a nature walk around Oxford Island Nature Reserve (again for no charge and throwing a few logs in the boot). On my way home to Belfast, I'll maybe pick-up a takeaway at the local chipper, it's a good one, clean and hygienic - I know that from the 'stars on the door' sticker provided by my local council. After dinner I might take the children out to Cherryvale or Ormeau Park, both having substantial and well maintain play facilities (for free). While there I can watch the local GAA team play on the council provided football and hurling pitches. After giving the children a bath later (with water I don't have to pay extra for), I'll maybe light the stove - a good job, installed it myself and I know it's safe because local building control came down and certified it (for free). While they were there they took away the old bulky one I couldn't lift (for free). When the children are all down, I might go out for a pint again in a nice clean and hygienic hostelry with jacks you aren't afraid to walk into, because the local council inspect it on a regular basis.
You do realise all these things you get for free have to be paid for by somebody in the UK, right?
I hear what you're saying - as I say, the only difference is in the way in which you are paying. In RoI you pay as you use - in NI you pay upfront whether you use it or not. The only difference I can see is that waste refuse services are no longer within the remit of local government in RoI; you must commission them privately. Everything else you mention is covered by local govt here, as far as I know.
Quote from: deiseach on December 17, 2013, 02:06:52 PM
Quote from: Ulick on December 17, 2013, 01:59:23 PM
Let me see. On a Thursday night I can put my bin out and have it collected first thing on a Friday morning for no extra charge. After taking a half day I can take the children over to the swimming pool paying about £3 for the hour (a nice clean and hygienic one at that). After that I can shoot down the toll-free M1 and visit the animal and rare breed sanctuary petting farm at Tannaghmore Gardens (for free) - hell I'll even throw a few logs in the boot of the car for burning later. Then I can either visit the substantial and well maintained play-park or take a nature walk around Oxford Island Nature Reserve (again for no charge and throwing a few logs in the boot). On my way home to Belfast, I'll maybe pick-up a takeaway at the local chipper, it's a good one, clean and hygienic - I know that from the 'stars on the door' sticker provided by my local council. After dinner I might take the children out to Cherryvale or Ormeau Park, both having substantial and well maintain play facilities (for free). While there I can watch the local GAA team play on the council provided football and hurling pitches. After giving the children a bath later (with water I don't have to pay extra for), I'll maybe light the stove - a good job, installed it myself and I know it's safe because local building control came down and certified it (for free). While they were there they took away the old bulky one I couldn't lift (for free). When the children are all down, I might go out for a pint again in a nice clean and hygienic hostelry with jacks you aren't afraid to walk into, because the local council inspect it on a regular basis.
You do realise all these things you get for free have to be paid for by somebody in the UK, right?
No they not, they're paid for by the rate payers in the council area. The councils might get specific grants from the DOE for certain capital expenditure but in the main they're all whole financed by the rate payer.
Quote from: Ulick on December 17, 2013, 02:14:42 PM
No they not, they're paid for by the rate payers in the council area. The councils might get specific grants from the DOE for certain capital expenditure but in the main they're all whole financed by the rate payer.
Are the rate payers not 'somebody'?
Quote from: Billys Boots on December 17, 2013, 02:08:51 PM
I hear what you're saying - as I say, the only difference is in the way in which you are paying. In RoI you pay as you use - in NI you pay upfront whether you use it or not. The only difference I can see is that waste refuse services are no longer within the remit of local government in RoI; you must commission them privately. Everything else you mention is covered by local govt here, as far as I know.
Well Billy I've yet to come across a council funded leisure centre in the south and I wish I knew where they are because the commercial ones I've visited are filthily dangerous holes. I'm a regular visitor to Johnstown Castle, the nearest there is to a public park in the area we stay in and there you pay for parking and to get into the attached museum. Frig the brother-in-law tried to get some wedding photos taken there a while back and they wanted money for that an all. As for council play facilities - I wasn't joking about clearing away needles - take a look at the one in New Ross. While we're on New Ross €30 to stick your head round an oul boat for 20 minutes - get the feck!
Quote from: deiseach on December 17, 2013, 02:25:07 PM
Quote from: Ulick on December 17, 2013, 02:14:42 PM
No they not, they're paid for by the rate payers in the council area. The councils might get specific grants from the DOE for certain capital expenditure but in the main they're all whole financed by the rate payer.
Are the rate payers not 'somebody'?
What's your point deiseach?
Quote from: Ulick on December 17, 2013, 02:30:06 PM
Quote from: deiseach on December 17, 2013, 02:25:07 PM
Are the rate payers not 'somebody'?
What's your point deiseach?
Are you seriously not getting the point? You pay for it at the point of entry or someone pays for it with their taxes. You can argue the toss over which is the superior method, but nothing comes for free.
Quote from: deiseach on December 17, 2013, 02:31:43 PM
Quote from: Ulick on December 17, 2013, 02:30:06 PM
Quote from: deiseach on December 17, 2013, 02:25:07 PM
Are the rate payers not 'somebody'?
What's your point deiseach?
Are you seriously not getting the point? You pay for it at the point of entry or someone pays for it with their taxes. You can argue the toss over which is the superior method, but nothing comes for free.
What are you wittering on about - go back and read the paragraph before the one you quoted.
Quote from: Ulick on December 17, 2013, 02:45:23 PM
What are you wittering on about - go back and read the paragraph before the one you quoted.
I saw that, where you noted that rate payers in the North are paying £1,200 for local services. Yet in the paragraph I quoted you say all the services are free. Let me put it this way. If you were the type of person who didn't avail of this list of services to which you refer - bin collection is the only one that is common to all households - you're being utterly ripped off for all those 'free' services.
Quote from: deiseach on December 17, 2013, 02:54:32 PM
Quote from: Ulick on December 17, 2013, 02:45:23 PM
What are you wittering on about - go back and read the paragraph before the one you quoted.
I saw that, where you noted that rate payers in the North are paying £1,200 for local services. Yet in the paragraph I quoted you say all the services are free. Let me put it this way. If you were the type of person who didn't avail of this list of services to which you refer - bin collection is the only one that is common to all households - you're being utterly ripped off for all those 'free' services.
You're just being pedantic deiseach.
Quote from: Ulick on December 17, 2013, 02:28:58 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on December 17, 2013, 02:08:51 PM
I hear what you're saying - as I say, the only difference is in the way in which you are paying. In RoI you pay as you use - in NI you pay upfront whether you use it or not. The only difference I can see is that waste refuse services are no longer within the remit of local government in RoI; you must commission them privately. Everything else you mention is covered by local govt here, as far as I know.
Well Billy I've yet to come across a council funded leisure centre in the south and I wish I knew where they are because the commercial ones I've visited are filthily dangerous holes. I'm a regular visitor to Johnstown Castle, the nearest there is to a public park in the area we stay in and there you pay for parking and to get into the attached museum. Frig the brother-in-law tried to get some wedding photos taken there a while back and they wanted money for that an all. As for council play facilities - I wasn't joking about clearing away needles - take a look at the one in New Ross. While we're on New Ross €30 to stick your head round an oul boat for 20 minutes - get the feck!
OK, we've an excellent public playground in my community (Fingal CC area) (free); we've a very good public park (free); we've a new, modern, clean leisure centre (free for most things). We've three tended beaches, all of which are cleaned regularly by the council - we don't pay to use them or their adjacent parking facilities. I come from a very rural parish in North Longford - it has a playground (free); it has some public park areas beside Lough Gowna (free to use and free parking), but no leisure centre (nearest in Longford town, don't know about charges). Mrs Boots comes from Killala in Mayo - it has a public playground (free); it has a leisure centre (free); it has a beautiful attended beach (free access and free parking).
I don't know what's going on in Wexford - perhaps it's not as well funded due to visitor numbers' maybe they're expected to fund these things through the tourism 'purse', which is hardly ideal.
Ulick is really partitionitly proud of his little bit of "UKness" ::)
Quote from: Billys Boots on December 17, 2013, 03:05:42 PM
OK, we've an excellent public playground in my community (Fingal CC area) (free); we've a very good public park (free); we've a new, modern, clean leisure centre (free for most things). We've three tended beaches, all of which are cleaned regularly by the council - we don't pay to use them or their adjacent parking facilities. I come from a very rural parish in North Longford - it has a playground (free); it has some public park areas beside Lough Gowna (free to use and free parking), but no leisure centre (nearest in Longford town, don't know about charges). Mrs Boots comes from Killala in Mayo - it has a public playground (free); it has a leisure centre (free); it has a beautiful attended beach (free access and free parking).
I don't know what's going on in Wexford - perhaps it's not as well funded due to visitor numbers' maybe they're expected to fund these things through the tourism 'purse', which is hardly ideal.
We could cherry pick all day on this. Ulick refers to clean toilets in pubs and filling a bath for free. I remember being encouraged to check out the gents in the Phil, the pub in Liverpool of which John Lennon said his greatest regret about fame was not being able to go into and have a quiet pint. The urinals are famously grand - they even have their own website (http://www.urinal.net/philharmonic/) - but my first reaction was to marvel at the stench. I'd not been long in Liverpool and I remember thinking (after I'd got some air) that I'd never encountered anything like it in any pub in Ireland before or since. Not even in New Ross. Clearly the council tax wasn't stretching to inspections there. Then there's the water. Water was metered for as long as I lived there from 2002 to 2007. Do they not pay for their water in the North?
Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2013, 03:20:16 PM
Ulick is really partitionitly proud of his little bit of "UKness" ::)
No just dislike what you Mexicans have done to f**k-up the rest of my country.
Quote from: deiseach on December 17, 2013, 03:20:51 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on December 17, 2013, 03:05:42 PM
OK, we've an excellent public playground in my community (Fingal CC area) (free); we've a very good public park (free); we've a new, modern, clean leisure centre (free for most things). We've three tended beaches, all of which are cleaned regularly by the council - we don't pay to use them or their adjacent parking facilities. I come from a very rural parish in North Longford - it has a playground (free); it has some public park areas beside Lough Gowna (free to use and free parking), but no leisure centre (nearest in Longford town, don't know about charges). Mrs Boots comes from Killala in Mayo - it has a public playground (free); it has a leisure centre (free); it has a beautiful attended beach (free access and free parking).
I don't know what's going on in Wexford - perhaps it's not as well funded due to visitor numbers' maybe they're expected to fund these things through the tourism 'purse', which is hardly ideal.
We could cherry pick all day on this. Ulick refers to clean toilets in pubs and filling a bath for free. I remember being encouraged to check out the gents in the Phil, the pub in Liverpool of which John Lennon said his greatest regret about fame was not being able to go into and have a quiet pint. The urinals are famously grand - they even have their own website (http://www.urinal.net/philharmonic/) - but my first reaction was to marvel at the stench. I'd not been long in Liverpool and I remember thinking (after I'd got some air) that I'd never encountered anything like it in any pub in Ireland before or since. Not even in New Ross. Clearly the council tax wasn't stretching to inspections there. Then there's the water. Water was metered for as long as I lived there from 2002 to 2007. Do they not pay for their water in the North?
Not directly yet, its meant to be part of your rates, but with NI water being set up as a private company its only a matter of time before its a separate charge.
I'll not be expecting my rates to be dropping by much though!
Businesses are metered IIRC, not domestic supply.
Quote from: johnneycool on December 17, 2013, 03:36:13 PM
Not directly yet, its meant to be part of your rates, but with NI water being set up as a private company its only a matter of time before its a separate charge.
I'll not be expecting my rates to be dropping by much though!
Businesses are metered IIRC, not domestic supply.
Thanks for the heads-up.
I think you're wrong. Councils are funded through the rates. They get a grant from DOE to cover any rates deficit arising from the impact of Central government policies e.g to cover the cost of rates relief on industrial properties, sports facilities etc
Quote from: Ulick on December 17, 2013, 03:29:36 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2013, 03:20:16 PM
Ulick is really partitionitly proud of his little bit of "UKness" ::)
No just dislike what you Mexicans have done to f**k-up the rest of my country.
Not like the North which was of course fcuked up to start with operating as Prod/Unionist Bantustan and then got rightly fcuked up by your lot from 1970 to 1994 while trying to end the Apartheid State.
Quote from: Ulick on December 17, 2013, 03:29:36 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2013, 03:20:16 PM
Ulick is really partitionitly proud of his little bit of "UKness" ::)
No just dislike what you Mexicans have done to f**k-up the rest of my country.
I don't know what the Mexicans have to do with this, but as an Irishman from County Mayo, I dislike what ye lot of done to the 6 north eastern counties of my country.
What sort of grace would you get from LPS for starting to pay rates, I bought a house a couple of weeks ago and got my rates bill in the other day. Was gonna tell them I haven't moved in yet as I don't fancy paying them yet, will they wear it ?
Tell them you've a few tradesmen in round the place doing some work to it before you move, should buy you some time! Worked for me a few years ago.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on December 17, 2013, 07:18:40 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on December 17, 2013, 02:08:51 PM
I hear what you're saying - as I say, the only difference is in the way in which you are paying. In RoI you pay as you use - in NI you pay upfront whether you use it or not. The only difference I can see is that waste refuse services are no longer within the remit of local government in RoI; you must commission them privately. Everything else you mention is covered by local govt here, as far as I know.
And that ended up with some of those private companies illegally dumping the rubbish up north. Big issue about it in this part of Tyrone about a decade or so ago. >:(
Bummer, binmen are rogues everywhere - I could tell you some stories about the waste management companies operating out of the 6-counties bringing their shite south of the border too. In fact I could tell you some horror stories about county council collected waste too. Binmen will always tell you that they're only serving the needs of their clients/customers, which is probably not a lie either.
Quote from: Minder on December 17, 2013, 10:42:06 PM
What sort of grace would you get from LPS for starting to pay rates, I bought a house a couple of weeks ago and got my rates bill in the other day. Was gonna tell them I haven't moved in yet as I don't fancy paying them yet, will they wear it ?
There's no grace now for empty properties, the rates still need payed.
If it was a new property and they deemed it fit for habitation then its rateable from that visit even if you haven't got a completion certificate, not sure how bendover and the renovations aspect work, I'd doubt if they'd buy it.
I accidentally got a neighbours rates bill and it was backdated for over 4 years, was the better part of 5K, but they give you a nice wee plastic card thing for 'easy' payment. I near shit the togs when I opened it, but thankfully there had been a mistake in house numbering between building control, the LPS and the RCA.