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Source:Hoganstand

Congress Mass going ahead as planned
15 March 2012

Incoming GAA president Liam O'Neill has dismissed a claim by TV3 that the Association isn't holding a Mass at next month's Congress in Killenard, Co. Laois.

It is tradition for the GAA to hold a Mass at the venue of the Congress after the motions have concluded on the Saturday evening. However, TV3 has reported that delegates this year will be made aware of a regular Saturday evening Mass at a nearby church which will have no official GAA involvement.

But O'Neill, who will take over the presidency from Christy Cooney in his own county, has rubbished the report.

"I really don't understand how TV3 could have construed that from our arrangements," he said on Midlands 103.

"The fact of the matter is that the Congress is being held in Killenard in a hotel which is opposite the church and for the first time ever we're using the church for the Congress Mass because it would be a shame to have Mass in a room when you have a wonderful church within 50 yards walk of the main door. So far from downgrading the Mass we're actually upgrading it."


Seriously what is going on, why is religion and sport being mixed like this at a national event. And I wasn't aware that this was the norm :o
Do the leaders of our association not see the folly of their ways. We should not be in bed with any religion, never mind the catholic church. So much for a forward moving association, I find this embarrassing

I do not find this embarrassing.
fair play to them for continuing tradition.
people dont have to go to this if they dont want to.
its even now in a seperate location !
still we have whinging about it.....

tv3 are sihte stirring cnuts - its a non story !

Surely if the church is across the road, anyone who feels the need to go can go. Ah but sure it's all a show, we know at congress they sacrifice referees and Leitrim county players upon an altar of skulls. Well that's the rumour anyway.

I thought Ireland was developing into a mutlicutural society, and here the GAA wants to be directly linked to the catholic church. A very wrong strategy.  dino thinking

I've been complaining about this congress mass business for years.  I've a good mind to run for a position on the North American Board just to get to congress and get giving out about it. It's time someone stood up at congress and spoke up about this.  The annual report always contains a couple of pages about the fine work being done, particularly by the Ulster council, to reach out beyond the traditional support base and become more inclusive.  But that work is undermined by silly traditions like mass being listed on the clar as if it's part of official GAA business and archbishops presenting cups.

This is the Gaelic Athletic Association, not the Catholic Athletic Association.

Quote from: shawshank on March 15, 2012, 04:07:48 PM
I thought Ireland was developing into a mutlicutural society,

First thing we need to do is get rid of them oul Gaelic games . Sure how can we ever get to be "multicultural" if we keep on doing Irishy things like that.
As for Mass- if you don't believe in it dont go.
Or is it better to try and force the silent majority to comply with the intolerant liberal ( oxy moronism?)agenda so espoused by some people in this land of ours

Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2012, 04:58:06 PM

Quote from: shawshank on March 15, 2012, 04:07:48 PM
I thought Ireland was developing into a mutlicutural society,

First thing we need to do is get rid of them oul Gaelic games . Sure how can we ever get to be "multicultural" if we keep on doing Irishy things like that.
As for Mass- if you don't believe in it dont go.
Or is it better to try and force the silent majority to comply with the intolerant liberal ( oxy moronism?)agenda so espoused by some people in this land of ours

+1

funnily- if other religions wanted to celebrate this, they could easily organise something.
as you say though, if you dont like it- just dont go !
lots of people have short memories. The Catholic church have help promote the GAA, but not vice versa and they dont whinge about it. the CC dont have any say in the GAA - so whats the whinge here about...

Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2012, 04:58:06 PM
Sure how can we ever get to be "multicultural" if we keep on doing Irishy things like that.

So going to a Catholic Mass is somehow part of our culture?
Catholicism is nothing to do with GAA. Nor should it.

Not stopping anyone going to mass, but it shouldn't be part of the Clar.

Shawshank, Eamonnca1 - I couldn't agree more.

Rossfan, does your interpretation of Mass as an "Irishy" thing mean that those who prefer to keep their religious and sporting affiliations separate are "un-Irishy" people?

Bullshit about "reaching out" to what the previous president referred to as "Protestants" will be seen as just that until the GAA divorces itself from the Catholic church in practice as well as in theory. I would go as far as to suggest that the holding of an "official" Mass under the auspices of the Congress is a flouting of the spirit of the rules of the GAA, which are specifically non-sectarian.

QuoteNot stopping anyone going to mass, but it shouldn't be part of the Clar.

Lets get rid of the playing of the National Anthem before games as well.

The NY Jets have a Mass every week before games for those who want to attend.....

This is getting ridiculous...... it's funny the only discrimination tolerated is to be anti-catholic......

Quote from: camanchero on March 15, 2012, 05:07:53 PM
lots of people have short memories. The Catholic church have help promote the GAA, but not vice versa and they dont whinge about it.

The catholic church opposed the GAA from the start because they were concerned about it affecting attendances (and hence contributions) at mass. Archibishop Croke was so revered by the early organization because he was the exception to the rule, most of the rest of the clergy was preaching for the people to stay away from the games.

"Short memories" indeed.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 15, 2012, 05:29:16 PM
The NY Jets have a Mass every week before games for those who want to attend.....

This is getting ridiculous...... it's funny the only discrimination tolerated is to be anti-catholic......

We must pick up our crosses daily.

Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2012, 04:58:06 PM

Quote from: shawshank on March 15, 2012, 04:07:48 PM
I thought Ireland was developing into a mutlicutural society,

First thing we need to do is get rid of them oul Gaelic games . Sure how can we ever get to be "multicultural" if we keep on doing Irishy things like that.
As for Mass- if you don't believe in it dont go.
Or is it better to try and force the silent majority to comply with the intolerant liberal ( oxy moronism?)agenda so espoused by some people in this land of ours

(http://transitionculture.org/wp-content/uploads/strawman1.jpg)

The clar should list a "break for religious services" and the various denominations can go and make their own arrangements.

Jaysus some lads love being offended. This is worse than MGHU with his stress and anxiety over what bands will might offend him at the Liverpool St Patrick's* Day Parade!

Despite claims to the contrary on this thread:
Having a Mass does not mean we are not a multicultural country.
Having a Mass does not make us sectarian.






Am I allowed to say 'Saint'? I'd hate to be offending any non-Christians on the board.

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 05:13:41 PM
Shawshank, Eamonnca1 - I couldn't agree more.

Rossfan, does your interpretation of Mass as an "Irishy" thing mean that those who prefer to keep their religious and sporting affiliations separate are "un-Irishy" people?

Bullshit about "reaching out" to what the previous president referred to as "Protestants" will be seen as just that until the GAA divorces itself from the Catholic church in practice as well as in theory. I would go as far as to suggest that the holding of an "official" Mass under the auspices of the Congress is a flouting of the spirit of the rules of the GAA, which are specifically non-sectarian.

Well said sir

"Having mass" is one thing. "Having mass listed as an official part of the order of business at the GAA world congress" is quite another. It sends out a message that this organization is closely aligned with one particular religious denomination and is in violation of the Official Guide rule that says the association is non sectarian.

Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2012, 04:58:06 PM

Quote from: shawshank on March 15, 2012, 04:07:48 PM
I thought Ireland was developing into a mutlicutural society,

First thing we need to do is get rid of them oul Gaelic games . Sure how can we ever get to be "multicultural" if we keep on doing Irishy things like that.
As for Mass- if you don't believe in it dont go.
Or is it better to try and force the silent majority to comply with the intolerant liberal ( oxy moronism?)agenda so espoused by some people in this land of ours

First things first, I go to mass every week, never miss, I believe in God and my faith. I also play GAA. The two should not be in the one glove, plain and simple. The GAA is not A Catholic organisation, so why are the suits making it so?

I didn't realise this was practice. Does this mean that Jack Boothman had to sit through Mass when he was President?

I have no problem with people going to Mass, but I don't see why it should be part of the programme for a secular organisation. And i'd say the same if the IFA or Ulster Rugby were having a Service for one of the Protestant denominations as part of their congress (or equivalent). The GAA is not a Catholic organisation, it's an Irish sporting and cultural organisation.

Quote from: Maguire01 on March 15, 2012, 07:28:38 PM
I didn't realise this was practice. Does this mean that Jack Boothman had to sit through Mass when he was President?

I have no problem with people going to Mass, but I don't see why it should be part of the programme for a secular organisation. And i'd say the same if the IFA or Ulster Rugby were having a Service for one of the Protestant denominations as part of their congress (or equivalent). The GAA is not a Catholic organisation, it's an Irish sporting and cultural organisation.

Hear hear.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 15, 2012, 04:21:13 PM
I've been complaining about this congress mass business for years.  I've a good mind to run for a position on the North American Board just to get to congress and get giving out about it. It's time someone stood up at congress and spoke up about this.  The annual report always contains a couple of pages about the fine work being done, particularly by the Ulster council, to reach out beyond the traditional support base and become more inclusive.  But that work is undermined by silly traditions like mass being listed on the clar as if it's part of official GAA business and archbishops presenting cups.

This is the Gaelic Athletic Association, not the Catholic Athletic Association.

Should anyone attending Congress this year, last year or next year and is Jew, Hindu, Protestant or any other faith and would like to celebrate their faith they will be accomodated and a room made available to them.

The majority of people attending are practicing Catholics - is that a crime now?

I love a good mass.

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 08:11:36 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 15, 2012, 04:21:13 PM
I've been complaining about this congress mass business for years.  I've a good mind to run for a position on the North American Board just to get to congress and get giving out about it. It's time someone stood up at congress and spoke up about this.  The annual report always contains a couple of pages about the fine work being done, particularly by the Ulster council, to reach out beyond the traditional support base and become more inclusive.  But that work is undermined by silly traditions like mass being listed on the clar as if it's part of official GAA business and archbishops presenting cups.

This is the Gaelic Athletic Association, not the Catholic Athletic Association.

Should anyone attending Congress this year, last year or next year and is Jew, Hindu, Protestant or any other faith and would like to celebrate their faith they will be accomodated and a room made available to them.

The majority of people attending are practicing Catholics - is that a crime now?

Missing the point completely.

If there's an OFFICIAL Hindu service as part of the schedule of Congress, as well as one for every other religion represented, then the rules are not being breached. If the only OFFICAL religious service offered is a Catholic one, that's in breach of the Official Guide Part1, Rule 7b.

Hardy is 100% right and anyone who thinks different is not using any sort of logic to form their opinion . Quite ironic when you think how the catholic church single handedly shut the gaa down once upon a time. We have even had them whinging from the pulpit about the gaa playing matches on a sunday morning.

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 08:23:35 PM

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 08:11:36 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 15, 2012, 04:21:13 PM
I've been complaining about this congress mass business for years.  I've a good mind to run for a position on the North American Board just to get to congress and get giving out about it. It's time someone stood up at congress and spoke up about this.  The annual report always contains a couple of pages about the fine work being done, particularly by the Ulster council, to reach out beyond the traditional support base and become more inclusive.  But that work is undermined by silly traditions like mass being listed on the clar as if it's part of official GAA business and archbishops presenting cups.

This is the Gaelic Athletic Association, not the Catholic Athletic Association.

Should anyone attending Congress this year, last year or next year and is Jew, Hindu, Protestant or any other faith and would like to celebrate their faith they will be accomodated and a room made available to them.

The majority of people attending are practicing Catholics - is that a crime now?

Missing the point completely.

If there's an OFFICIAL Hindu service as part of the schedule of Congress, as well as one for every other religion represented, then the rules are not being breached. If the only OFFICAL religious service offered is a Catholic one, that's in breach of the Official Guide Part1, Rule 7b.

Please explain further Hardy

What would you like me to explain? (I'm not being smart. I think the above is as straightforward as I can state it.)

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 08:40:48 PM
What would you like me to explain? (I'm not being smart. I think the above is as straightforward as I can state it.)

How is advertising a Catholic mass on the official agenda of GAA Congress in breach of "Rule 7b"?

How is it not?

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 08:43:35 PM
How is it not?

Is it not incumbent on you to demonstrate your point?

I think it's so self evident as not to require any further illustration. If you were trying to think up an example to append to Rule 7b by way of illustration of the sort of promotion of a particular religion that is prohibited, I don't think it would be possible to come up with a better one.

Can I ask you what interpretation of the rule allows for this type of official service for one religion as part of the schedule of the congress?

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 08:51:51 PM
I think it's so self evident as not to require any further illustration. If you were trying to think up an example to append to Rule 7b by way of illustration of the sort of promotion of a particular religion that is prohibited, I don't think it would be possible to come up with a better one.

Can I ask you what interpretation of the rule allows for this type of official service for one religion as part of the schedule of the congress?

Why don't you explain what "Official guide Part 1 rule 7b" is to the less enlightened such as myself?

Isnt there some sort of mass or blessing held in croke park on all ireland day too? Seem to recall sonething like that when i did the tour.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 15, 2012, 08:59:35 PM
Isnt there some sort of mass or blessing held in croke park on all ireland day too? Seem to recall sonething like that when i did the tour.

There is a mass around 9.30am on the morning of both AI finals.

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 08:56:22 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 08:51:51 PM
I think it's so self evident as not to require any further illustration. If you were trying to think up an example to append to Rule 7b by way of illustration of the sort of promotion of a particular religion that is prohibited, I don't think it would be possible to come up with a better one.

Can I ask you what interpretation of the rule allows for this type of official service for one religion as part of the schedule of the congress?

Why don't you explain what "Official guide Part 1 rule 7b" is to the less enlightened such as myself?

Stop playing the wounded innocent. I have not suggested you are less enlightened and I wouldn't pretend to be any better than you at reading such a straightforward sentence of English as Rule 7b. So why don't you read it and give me your interpretation of it that allows for the congress mass as I simply can't see it myself in the six words of that sentence?

For those who don't have access to the Official Guide, here is Rule 7b in its entirety:

"The Association shall be non-sectarian."

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:03:29 PM

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 08:56:22 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 08:51:51 PM
I think it's so self evident as not to require any further illustration. If you were trying to think up an example to append to Rule 7b by way of illustration of the sort of promotion of a particular religion that is prohibited, I don't think it would be possible to come up with a better one.

Can I ask you what interpretation of the rule allows for this type of official service for one religion as part of the schedule of the congress?

Why don't you explain what "Official guide Part 1 rule 7b" is to the less enlightened such as myself?

Stop playing the wounded innocent. I have not suggested you are less enlightened and I wouldn't pretend to be any better than you at reading such a straightforward sentence of English as Rule 7b. So why don't you read it and give me your interpretation of it that allows for the congress mass as I simply can't see it myself in the six words of that sentence?

For those who don't have access to the Official Guide, here is Rule 7b in its entirety:

"The Association shall be non-sectarian."

Who is being discriminated against in a Sectarian fashion by publishing details of a Catholic mass on the agenda?

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 09:07:01 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:03:29 PM

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 08:56:22 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 08:51:51 PM
I think it's so self evident as not to require any further illustration. If you were trying to think up an example to append to Rule 7b by way of illustration of the sort of promotion of a particular religion that is prohibited, I don't think it would be possible to come up with a better one.

Can I ask you what interpretation of the rule allows for this type of official service for one religion as part of the schedule of the congress?

Why don't you explain what "Official guide Part 1 rule 7b" is to the less enlightened such as myself?

Stop playing the wounded innocent. I have not suggested you are less enlightened and I wouldn't pretend to be any better than you at reading such a straightforward sentence of English as Rule 7b. So why don't you read it and give me your interpretation of it that allows for the congress mass as I simply can't see it myself in the six words of that sentence?

For those who don't have access to the Official Guide, here is Rule 7b in its entirety:

"The Association shall be non-sectarian."

Who is being discriminated against in a Sectarian fashion by publishing details of a Catholic mass on the agenda?

Where does Rule 7b say "nobody shall be discriminated against in a sectarian fashion"? Your question seems to refer to a non-existent rule or one I haven't seen. Discrimination is not the only manifestation of sectarianism. Promotion would be another. It's fairly simple. The Association shall be non-sectarian. How can it possibly be interpreted as non-sectarian to promote the religious services of one "sect" in the official schedule of the official congress of the Association?

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:14:01 PM

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 09:07:01 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:03:29 PM

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 08:56:22 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 08:51:51 PM
I think it's so self evident as not to require any further illustration. If you were trying to think up an example to append to Rule 7b by way of illustration of the sort of promotion of a particular religion that is prohibited, I don't think it would be possible to come up with a better one.

Can I ask you what interpretation of the rule allows for this type of official service for one religion as part of the schedule of the congress?

Why don't you explain what "Official guide Part 1 rule 7b" is to the less enlightened such as myself?

Stop playing the wounded innocent. I have not suggested you are less enlightened and I wouldn't pretend to be any better than you at reading such a straightforward sentence of English as Rule 7b. So why don't you read it and give me your interpretation of it that allows for the congress mass as I simply can't see it myself in the six words of that sentence?

For those who don't have access to the Official Guide, here is Rule 7b in its entirety:

"The Association shall be non-sectarian."

Who is being discriminated against in a Sectarian fashion by publishing details of a Catholic mass on the agenda?

Where does Rule 7b say "nobody shall be discriminated against in a sectarian manner"? That seems to refer to a non-existent rule or one I haven't seen. Discrimination is not the only manifestation of sectarianism. Promotion would be another. It's fairly simple. The Association shall be non-sectarian. How can it possibly be interpreted as non-sectarian to promote the religious services of one "sect" in the official schedule of the official congress of the Association?

I fail to see what is sectarian about it.

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 09:19:44 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:14:01 PM

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 09:07:01 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:03:29 PM

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 08:56:22 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 08:51:51 PM
I think it's so self evident as not to require any further illustration. If you were trying to think up an example to append to Rule 7b by way of illustration of the sort of promotion of a particular religion that is prohibited, I don't think it would be possible to come up with a better one.

Can I ask you what interpretation of the rule allows for this type of official service for one religion as part of the schedule of the congress?

Why don't you explain what "Official guide Part 1 rule 7b" is to the less enlightened such as myself?

Stop playing the wounded innocent. I have not suggested you are less enlightened and I wouldn't pretend to be any better than you at reading such a straightforward sentence of English as Rule 7b. So why don't you read it and give me your interpretation of it that allows for the congress mass as I simply can't see it myself in the six words of that sentence?

For those who don't have access to the Official Guide, here is Rule 7b in its entirety:

"The Association shall be non-sectarian."

Who is being discriminated against in a Sectarian fashion by publishing details of a Catholic mass on the agenda?

Where does Rule 7b say "nobody shall be discriminated against in a sectarian manner"? That seems to refer to a non-existent rule or one I haven't seen. Discrimination is not the only manifestation of sectarianism. Promotion would be another. It's fairly simple. The Association shall be non-sectarian. How can it possibly be interpreted as non-sectarian to promote the religious services of one "sect" in the official schedule of the official congress of the Association?

I fail to see what is sectarian about it.

You mean you fail to acknowledge. Perhaps you could present an argument, rather than a statement? Or an answer to my question?

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:21:33 PM

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 09:19:44 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:14:01 PM

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 09:07:01 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:03:29 PM

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 08:56:22 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 08:51:51 PM
I think it's so self evident as not to require any further illustration. If you were trying to think up an example to append to Rule 7b by way of illustration of the sort of promotion of a particular religion that is prohibited, I don't think it would be possible to come up with a better one.

Can I ask you what interpretation of the rule allows for this type of official service for one religion as part of the schedule of the congress?

Why don't you explain what "Official guide Part 1 rule 7b" is to the less enlightened such as myself?

Stop playing the wounded innocent. I have not suggested you are less enlightened and I wouldn't pretend to be any better than you at reading such a straightforward sentence of English as Rule 7b. So why don't you read it and give me your interpretation of it that allows for the congress mass as I simply can't see it myself in the six words of that sentence?

For those who don't have access to the Official Guide, here is Rule 7b in its entirety:

"The Association shall be non-sectarian."

Who is being discriminated against in a Sectarian fashion by publishing details of a Catholic mass on the agenda?

Where does Rule 7b say "nobody shall be discriminated against in a sectarian manner"? That seems to refer to a non-existent rule or one I haven't seen. Discrimination is not the only manifestation of sectarianism. Promotion would be another. It's fairly simple. The Association shall be non-sectarian. How can it possibly be interpreted as non-sectarian to promote the religious services of one "sect" in the official schedule of the official congress of the Association?

I fail to see what is sectarian about it.

You mean you fail to acknowledge. Perhaps you could present an argument, rather than a statement? Or an answer to my question?

You should make a complaint to the Guards that the GAA are committing hate crimes if you genuinely believe what you're saying.

Still no argument in support of your statement?

(Where did hate suddenly arise from? You have a great line in misdirection. We're just talking about sectarianism. First you introduce discrimination, now hate. What next? )

Here's the simple question again:

How can it possibly be interpreted as non-sectarian to promote the religious services of one "sect" in the official schedule of the official congress of the Association?

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:29:39 PM
Still no argument in support of your statement?

(Where did hate suddenly arise from? You have a great line in misdirection. We're just talking about sectarianism. First you introduce discrimination, now hate. What next? )

Here's the simple question again:

How can it possibly be interpreted as non-sectarian to promote the religious services of one "sect" in the official schedule of the official congress of the Association?

Nor have you provided any argument - I asked you at the start to demonstrate your point.

OK – obviously you're not able to answer my question and unable to make a case in support of your assertion, so it's not worth considering. Taking the piss and feigning stupidity is no substitute for debate.

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:38:39 PM
OK – obviously you're not able to answer my question and unable to make a case in support of your assertion

That's funny I was just about to post the exact same thing about you.

Quote from: heffo on March 15, 2012, 09:40:04 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:38:39 PM
OK – obviously you're not able to answer my question and unable to make a case in support of your assertion

That's funny I was just about to post the exact same thing about you.

How can it possibly be interpreted as non-sectarian to promote the religious services of one "sect" in the official schedule of the official congress of the Association?

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:29:39 PM
Still no argument in support of your statement?

(Where did hate suddenly arise from? You have a great line in misdirection. We're just talking about sectarianism. First you introduce discrimination, now hate. What next? )

Here's the simple question again:

How can it possibly be interpreted as non-sectarian to promote the religious services of one "sect" in the official schedule of the official congress of the Association?

According to the evidence, the act (to have the mass on the schedule after the business of the day has concluded) cannot be interpreted either as sectarian or non-sectarian. The GAA does not follow the doctrine of the church, nor is the mass event being promoted rigidly.
One does not have to present an argument that it is non-sectarian, it is enough to say that in all probability, there is a recognition that many of the delegates would like to partake in a mass and there is also the tradition of having a mass.
The onus is on the person to present a case that it is a sectarian act.
One surely can have an objection to having the mass on the schedule, possibly instead leave a blank space on the clár for 90 minutes.

Quote from: Main Street on March 15, 2012, 10:09:27 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 09:29:39 PM
Still no argument in support of your statement?

(Where did hate suddenly arise from? You have a great line in misdirection. We're just talking about sectarianism. First you introduce discrimination, now hate. What next? )

Here's the simple question again:

How can it possibly be interpreted as non-sectarian to promote the religious services of one "sect" in the official schedule of the official congress of the Association?

According to the evidence, the act (to have the mass on the schedule after the business of the day has concluded) cannot be interpreted either as sectarian or non-sectarian. The GAA does not follow the doctrine of the church, nor is the mass event being promoted rigidly.

How do you promote something "rigidly". Assuming you can, what degrees of rigidity are defined? And, assuming such degrees are defined, what degree of rigidity in promoting the services of a particular sect are provided for in the six words of Rule 7b?

Quote
One does not have to present an argument that it is non-sectarian, it is enough to sat that in all probability there is a recognition that many of the delegates would like to partake in a mass and there is also the tradition of having a mass.

One does not have to do anything. But if one expects to be taken seriously in a debate, one might consider offering a rebuttal to the argument presented, which our friend seemed unable to do. For instance, in rebuttal of your statement I suggest that neither the desire of some, or even many delegates, nor tradition refutes the self-evident sectarianism involved in catering for a single religion only.

Quote
The onus is on the person to present a case that it is a sectarian act.

Yes. that's why I took the trouble to present the case. My case is that it is sectarian to promote the services of a single sect to the exclusion of all others. If it is not, can someone provide a definition of sectarianism that would allow this promotion?

Quote
One surely can have an objection to having the mass on the schedule, possibly instead leave a blank space on the clár for 90 minutes.

I don't understand this point.

(I'm off for a few pints now. I'll check in in the morning for Heffo's argument.)

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 10:23:07 PM

Yes. that's why I took the trouble to present the case. My case is that it is sectarian to promote the services of a single sect to the exclusion of all others. If it is not, can someone provide a definition of sectarianism that would allow this promotion?

If that was taking trouble to present a case then I hope you are not in the legal or negotiation business :)

That is not a case you presented, you just offered an opinion and that opinion does not come close to supporting such a strong claim.
An act of tradition by a sporting body is not sectarian merely because that tradition is not all-inclusive of all the members and even if that act of tradition is religious in nature.

If everyone HAD to go to the mass that would be sectarian. It's clearly optional so I don't see the fuss. Let whoever wants to go to mass, go to mass. There are more things to worry about.

Quote from: Main Street on March 15, 2012, 10:54:51 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 15, 2012, 10:23:07 PM

Yes. that's why I took the trouble to present the case. My case is that it is sectarian to promote the services of a single sect to the exclusion of all others. If it is not, can someone provide a definition of sectarianism that would allow this promotion?

If that was taking trouble to present a case then I hope you are not in the legal or negotiation business :)

That is not a case you presented, you just offered an opinion and that opinion does not come close to supporting such a strong claim.
An act of tradition by a sporting governing body is not sectarian merely because that tradition is not all-inclusive of all the members and even if that act of tradition is religious in nature.

A bit like the Queen of England then  ;)

If people really believe the mass is sectarian, would these people not be with-drawing their support for the organisation and indeed membership.

I know I would not be happy to be a part of an organisation that would be considered sectarian.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on March 15, 2012, 10:43:20 PM
As I see it, the involvement of the Catholic Church in Ireland in GAA affairs at differing levels has been more about promotion for the church than promotion of the GAA. There is of course scenarios where the local Catholic parish and their priests have helped local GAA clubs in some places over time including forming clubs and teams, and providing accommodation and meeting places particularly during the troubles. And some priests have set great local milestones. But there have been times also when they have hindered its development, as a recent story on AFR (http://www.anfearrua.com/story.asp?id=3280) shows in one example because of the hang-ups of a bishop. Thankfully in most places the local PP no longer holds such a tyrannical reign should his flock go against him. Also in Ireland and the world over, units of the Catholic church have been involved in developing sports clubs over a wide range of games, closer to home I can think of soccer and indoor bowls for two. Gaelic games do not have promotional exclusivity among the Catholic clergy in Ireland.
Personally I think the GAA should concentrate solely on sporting and cultural matters and not get involved in anything else unless there is a vested interest in the Association as a whole to do so. Saying that, this matter isn't that hugely pressing of a concern against other issues that need closer attention like player burn-out, clubs and counties affected by emigration etc. but still worth debating about.

You argument is very well presented. I am in complete agreement with you on all points you have raised.

Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 16, 2012, 12:15:06 AM
If people really believe the mass is sectarian, would these people not be with-drawing their support for the organisation and indeed membership.

Translation: "Anyone who isn't a practicing catholic or who has a problem with the GAA officially endorsing a specifically catholic act of worship can f*** away off and leave the association. It's for catholics only."

Sectarian
sec·tar·i·an  (sk-târ-n)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sect.
2. Adhering or confined to the dogmatic limits of a sect or denomination; partisan.
3. Narrow-minded; parochial.
n.
1. A member of a sect.
2. One characterized by bigoted adherence to a factional viewpoint.

If a sports organization officially endorses a religious ceremony specific to one sect or denomination than that is a sectarian act.  Having a very specific Roman Catholic Mass listed on the clar of the meeting is an official endorsement of that ceremony which aligns the GAA squarely with the catholic church in violation of the Official Guide.  Now if there was nothing on the clar at the allotted time and an announcement was made that religious services are available for those who want them, I wouldn't have a problem with that.  My problem is with the association undermining its own attempts to reach out beyond its traditional support base.  You want to get northern Protestants taking up hurling in larger numbers?  This is not the way to go about it.

This is the point that the "if you don't like it don't go to the mass" crowd are missing.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 16, 2012, 02:44:53 AM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 16, 2012, 12:15:06 AM
If people really believe the mass is sectarian, would these people not be with-drawing their support for the organisation and indeed membership.

Translation: "Anyone who isn't a practicing catholic or who has a problem with the GAA officially endorsing a specifically catholic act of worship can f*** away off and leave the association. It's for catholics only."

where did I say any of that? I'm just trying to follow a bit of logic.
You believe this action is sectarian, and it's obviously endorsed by the GAA heirarchy. Therefore this makes the GAA sectarian? Simple yes or no?

If yes, then how why would you continue to support a sectarian organisation?

Try and answer the question this time. And not go of on a rant. I never mentioned anything about the GAA being pro catholic.

Quote from: Main Street
If that was taking trouble to present a case then I hope you are not in the legal or negotiation business

That is not a case you presented, you just offered an opinion and that opinion does not come close to supporting such a strong claim.
An act of tradition by a sporting body is not sectarian merely because that tradition is not all-inclusive of all the members and even if that act of tradition is religious in nature.

Sneering at the argument of another does not constitute a counter argument. If you have a case to make, make it. You could start by having a go at

1. Answering my simple question - how can it be considered non-sectarian to promote the religious services of a particular sect?
2. Providing a definition of non-sectarianism that allows for promoting a particular sect to the exclusion of all others.

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 15, 2012, 10:57:07 PM
If everyone HAD to go to the mass that would be sectarian. It's clearly optional so I don't see the fuss. Let whoever wants to go to mass, go to mass. There are more things to worry about.

Seanie, the point is not the mass, it's its inclusion as an official activity of the GAA. It's casually sectarian and all the more annoying for this blind casualness and assumption that it's OK to behave like this because ah sure we're nearly all Catholics and sure we've always done it. Sure the protestants and Nigerian baptists and other irrelevant minorities can surely find something to do while the real GAA is about the official religious business of the GAA by attending mass. Sure if they want a room for a service we'll be delighted to provide it. They only have to ask.

The point? The catholics didn't have to ask. It may seem a small thing, if you're a catholic. Is it a small thing if you're a presbyterian or muslim who is excluded from one of the OFFICIAL activities of Congress? What would the catholic nationalists here who seem to think it's so important to include the catholic church in the activities of the GAA think if a DUP-dominated local council voted through a measure to include a half-hour religioius sermon by Ian Paisley in every council meeting?

You're right - there are more things to worry about, but you could say that about any thread here. I nominate the Manchester United one.

Was this also sectarian ?

http://ireland.anglican.org/news/2977

Participants at All Ireland GAA Congress attend service in St John's Church, Newcastle, Co Down

On the Sunday morning following the 16th-17th April meeting of the All Ireland GAA Congress at the Slieve Donard Hotel, Newcastle, Co. Down, some 50 Congress participants came to the Parish Communion service in St John's Church of Ireland parish church, including the organisation's President, Christy Cooney, and Director-General, Páraic Duffy.

Was it part of the agenda of congress? Was the official mass also included in that year's congress?

Quote from: Hardy on March 16, 2012, 09:29:18 AM
Was it part of the agenda of congress? No. Was the official mass also included in that year's congress? Yes

http://www.gaa.ie/content/documents/publications/annual_reports/Annual_Report_2010_Part1_Pg1_51.pdf

Quote from: Hardy on March 16, 2012, 08:42:07 AM

Quote from: Main Street
If that was taking trouble to present a case then I hope you are not in the legal or negotiation business

That is not a case you presented, you just offered an opinion and that opinion does not come close to supporting such a strong claim.
An act of tradition by a sporting body is not sectarian merely because that tradition is not all-inclusive of all the members and even if that act of tradition is religious in nature.

Sneering at the argument of another does not constitute a counter argument. If you have a case to make, make it. You could start by having a go at

1. Answering my simple question - how can it be considered non-sectarian to promote the religious services of a particular sect?
2. Providing a definition of non-sectarianism that allows for promoting a particular sect to the exclusion of all others.

I wasn't sneering at an argument, you simply did not present an argument. I have already stated my opinion whereby I concluded that it is not sectarian to have a mass on the clár. I am not defending the GAA having a mass on the clár. I am simply stating an opinion that it is not sectarian and gave my clear reason why.
A sectarian act by the GAA could be defined by having membership to a certain church as a prerequisite to membership of the GAA, or an exclusion to members of a certain church.
A nonsectarian act by the GAA is have no regard to religious affiliation in the membership criteria.

If one wants to argue for a secular GAA (in this context of this mass), one can certainly do it without resorting to using extreme inappropriate emotional language.
You have to do your own legwork to support a claim that having a mass on the clár is a sectarian act.

Ye pseudo liberals have this country driven mad. Referring to the Catholic Church as a 'sect' by a poster rally sums it up.
This country is more concerned with catering for the minority weather than the majority in every area of life.
Fact is we are still Catholic in the main and a spiritual celebration is an important time for reflection. There are many religions but we can't have multiple services. The main one suffices.
Ive attended American Football games and players there regularly take to their knees before and after games to say a short prayer. No one condemns them, rather they are applauded for it.
Tolerance my ******. As long as you agree with the minority lefty liberals point of view.

Quote from: Main Street on March 16, 2012, 09:52:58 AM

Quote from: Hardy on March 16, 2012, 08:42:07 AM

Quote from: Main Street
If that was taking trouble to present a case then I hope you are not in the legal or negotiation business

That is not a case you presented, you just offered an opinion and that opinion does not come close to supporting such a strong claim.
An act of tradition by a sporting body is not sectarian merely because that tradition is not all-inclusive of all the members and even if that act of tradition is religious in nature.

Sneering at the argument of another does not constitute a counter argument. If you have a case to make, make it. You could start by having a go at

1. Answering my simple question - how can it be considered non-sectarian to promote the religious services of a particular sect?
2. Providing a definition of non-sectarianism that allows for promoting a particular sect to the exclusion of all others.

I wasn't sneering at an argument, you simply did not present an argument. I have already stated my opinion whereby I concluded that it is not sectarian to have a mass on the clár. I am not defending the GAA having a mass on the clár. I am simply stating an opinion that it is not sectarian and gave my clear reason why.
A sectarian act by the GAA could be defined by having membership to a certain church as a prerequisite to membership of the GAA, or an exclusion to members of a certain church.
A nonsectarian act by the GAA is have no regard to religious affiliation in the membership criteria.

If one wants to argue for a secular GAA (in this context of this mass), one can certainly do it without resorting to using extreme inappropriate emotional language.
You have to do your own legwork to support a claim that having a mass on the clár is a sectarian act.

OK, so your argument is definitive, mine is a non-argument. You are right by default and by your own proclamation. I see. (And, just for gratuitous extras, you proclaim my language to be extreme, inappropriate and emotional. Well sorry, Judge, but I didn't submit my argument for your approval, so I feel free to ignore your unsolicited decision.)

Where can I go from here under these rules?

How about addressing the specific questions I posed? Will that get us somewhere or are these part of my non-argument and therefore to be ignored?

Quote from: Give and Go on March 16, 2012, 09:57:52 AM
Ye pseudo liberals have this country driven mad. Referring to the Catholic Church as a 'sect' by a poster rally sums it up.
This country is more concerned with catering for the minority weather than the majority in every area of life.
Fact is we are still Catholic in the main and a spiritual celebration is an important time for reflection. There are many religions but we can't have multiple services. The main one suffices.
Ive attended American Football games and players there regularly take to their knees before and after games to say a short prayer. No one condemns them, rather they are applauded for it.
Tolerance my ******. As long as you agree with the minority lefty liberals point of view.

That was refreshing.

Hardy do you think the GAA is sectarian?

No. The GAA is specifically non-sectarian by constitution. That's why I'm annoyed by an act of casual sectarianism in specific breach of this constitution that people seem happy to accept.

There’s an incessant debate here about manifestations of sectarianism in Northern soccer, the clear association of the administration of that sport with one section of the community and the whole “cold house for catholics” atmosphere of OWC. How do people who complain about that feel about the clear association of the GAA with the catholic church implicit in the inclusion of an agenda item of “Mass” in the congress of the GAA? Do they not feel it's important to act out the non-sectarianism in our constitution instead of casually ignoring an act that flouts it?

Quote from: Hardy on March 16, 2012, 10:27:44 AM
No. The GAA is specifically non-sectarian by constitution. That's why I'm annoyed by an act of casual sectarianism in specific breach of this constitution that people seem happy to accept.

There's an incessant debate here about manifestations of sectarianism in Northern soccer, the clear association of the administration of that sport with one section of the community and the whole "cold house for catholics" atmosphere of OWC. How do people who complain about that feel about the clear association of the GAA with the catholic church implicit in the inclusion of an agenda item of "Mass" in the congress of the GAA? Do they not feel it's important to act out the non-sectarianism in our constitution instead of casually ignoring an act that flouts it?

It's hard to argue with your logic, I must confess (pun unintended). No one is stopping members of Congress going to mass together. But having it on the agenda is a statement of intent.

Quote from: Hardy on March 16, 2012, 10:27:44 AM
No. The GAA is specifically non-sectarian by constitution. That's why I'm annoyed by an act of casual sectarianism in specific breach of this constitution that people seem happy to accept.

Hardy, here's my take - if I had a vote I'd vote for it to be removed, but I am not bothered enough to do anything as I can't see its existence on the clar inciting any hatred, bigotry or discrimination (which is broadly my view on the working definition of sectarianism and which applies to elements of the NI soccer situation that you brought up).  I think it would be sectarian if someone asked for another religious ceremony to be on the clar but had the request refused, or if members were compelled to go to Mass.  So I personally don't believe that it flouts the non-sectarian provision of the constitution, but that's sectarianism as I define it, and obviously differs from your view. 

As I said, i'd vote to change it, but how in your view is it to be fixed?  What channels have you (or others) gone through to try to fix it in prior years that have been unsuccessful?  Who in our organisation is to blame for failing to change it when they've had the issue highlighted to them?  Name and shame, because I don't think we should tolerate those involved in the top levels of decision-making who will not take the views of others into account when they are presented to them.

Sorry for the questions, but my own way of looking at things that I complain about is to ask myself "what did they say when you told them" and I find it very useful in reconciling myself to things I take issue with.     

Reasonable views, Rois. I don't have good answers to your questions. I wasn't aware until I read this thread that mass was an official part of the agenda at congress. So I haven't done anything about it. And I confess I'm unlikely to do anything about it as I'm not actively involved as a committee member, or such and so not in a position to put it on any agenda. I could write to Croke Park. Maybe I will, but unsolicited letters from members of the public probably don't have much influence on what gets attention. Eamonnca1 proposes to get involved and put it on the agenda. I support him in that.

For now, my contribution is the small one of debating it here and hoping to influence the views of those in a position to take it up officially.

There is nothing wrong with including God in anything the GAA does.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 16, 2012, 01:24:55 PM
There is nothing wrong with including God in anything the GAA does.

Which God are we talking about now?

I doubt if anyone at congress didn't bother with the mass they would get turfed out. I don't see how its a problem. Went to through the Camp Nou a while back and they have a small church just of the players tunnel. It's there for those who want it and its a reflection of the faith and culture that held sway for the most part of the clubs history.

If I was at congress (though it will be a cold day for Hades when that happens) I wouldn't bother with the mass but I have no problem with it being there as its a reflection of the faith and culture of the country.

I didn't know we had a single official faith or culture in the country, much less in the GAA.

no, but we had/have a dominant one.

Isn't that exactly the problem here - dominance?

or proportionate representation?

Perhpas it could be reworded to be more inclusive:

Break for Mass (or tae for them blasted heathens)







no coffee though. 

Quote from: Tubberman on March 16, 2012, 01:27:46 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on March 16, 2012, 01:24:55 PM
There is nothing wrong with including God in anything the GAA does.

Which God are we talking about now?

The God worshiped by the Saints so many teams in Ireland are named after. The God who has been worshiped in Ireland for centuries.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HtRKaqflNrs/Td5omXlf5iI/AAAAAAAAAC0/KxxMwOWkxbk/s1600/13-12-2006-046_medium.jpg)

those GAA medals, something strikingly christian about them too, no?

Or perhaps a its pre-chrisitan sunwheel*.




*which early chrisitans co-opted to form what we call today the "Celtic Cross".

Quote from: Maguire01 on March 15, 2012, 07:28:38 PM
I didn't realise this was practice. Does this mean that Jack Boothman had to sit through Mass when he was President?

I have no problem with people going to Mass, but I don't see why it should be part of the programme for a secular organisation. And i'd say the same if the IFA or Ulster Rugby were having a Service for one of the Protestant denominations as part of their congress (or equivalent). The GAA is not a Catholic organisation, it's an Irish sporting and cultural organisation.

Exactly it has no mandate to be multi cuktural. I think if more people attended religious services, whether mass or other Ireland would be a better place. That said I think that an ecumenical service would probably be a better option.

What we're seeing is a systematic effort by a minority of people to remove God from everything and anything.....
The world they are striving for I believe wouldn't be a great place for any of us.

This has nothing to do with the GAA or the Congress, this is about a small group of people's hate for God and religion.....

Quote from: The Iceman on March 16, 2012, 03:14:46 PM
What we're seeing is a systematic effort by a minority of people to remove God from everything and anything.....
The world they are striving for I believe wouldn't be a great place for any of us.

This has nothing to do with the GAA or the Congress, this is about a small group of people's hate for God and religion.....

I don't think it's possible to hate something you don't think exists.

It's very possible to hate the concept otherwise why bother......

Quote from: The Iceman on March 16, 2012, 03:14:46 PM
What we're seeing is a systematic effort by a minority of people to remove God from everything and anything.....
The world they are striving for I believe wouldn't be a great place for any of us.

This has nothing to do with the GAA or the Congress, this is about a small group of people's hate for God and religion.....

That's over the top, Iceman. Through him with him in him in the unity of the holy spirit. How can God be removed from everything ?
Hardy has obviously been sent by God to test you.   

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 16, 2012, 03:05:33 PM
I think if more people attended religious services, whether mass or other Ireland would be a better place.

So sitting in a Chapel, for 1 hour a week will make Ireland a better place?
I've heard it all now.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 16, 2012, 03:14:46 PM
What we're seeing is a systematic effort by a minority of people to remove God from everything and anything.....
The world they are striving for I believe wouldn't be a great place for any of us.

This has nothing to do with the GAA or the Congress, this is about a small group of people's hate for God and religion.....

It's amazing how people see "hate" in everything. If I disagree with you, you accuse me of hating you. Get a bit of perspective. And a grip.

I forget who I'm quoting but you seem to be confusing a war on your religion with not always getting what you want.

Quote from: Hardy on March 16, 2012, 03:44:07 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on March 16, 2012, 03:14:46 PM
What we're seeing is a systematic effort by a minority of people to remove God from everything and anything.....
The world they are striving for I believe wouldn't be a great place for any of us.

This has nothing to do with the GAA or the Congress, this is about a small group of people's hate for God and religion.....

It's amazing how people see "hate" in everything. If I disagree with you, you accuse me of hating you. Get a bit of perspective. And a grip.

I forget who I'm quoting but you seem to be confusing a war on your religion with not always getting what you want.

So you can make assumptions but I can't..... hmmmm

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 15, 2012, 05:29:40 PM

Quote from: camanchero on March 15, 2012, 05:07:53 PM
lots of people have short memories. The Catholic church have help promote the GAA, but not vice versa and they dont whinge about it.

The catholic church opposed the GAA from the start because they were concerned about it affecting attendances (and hence contributions) at mass. Archibishop Croke was so revered by the early organization because he was the exception to the rule, most of the rest of the clergy was preaching for the people to stay away from the games.

"Short memories" indeed.

Yes short memory and blinkers too it seems!
Maybe some of the hierarchy and a few priests were against the GAA but the massive majority both organized, publicized and played football and hurling and have grounds named after them in a lot of areas including our own fr McNally park!

If some folks on here took a step back and stopped getting their knickers in a twist - other religions can easily request that a ceremony of their own can happen simultaneously as the catholic mass or before/after congress etc - the only people to miss out will be the heathens/agnostics but a tea break would surely suffice them.
The opportunity is there for other groups so don't knock the Gaa if the opportunity isn't taken.
No sectarianism at all.
It's not even the Gaa promoting religion, it's showing respect for them ( currently only Catholicism that's taking up the slot right now- there could easily be more) .

Other communities can easily request that a team of their own can play simultaneously as the protestant NI team.

The opportunity is there for other groups so don't knock the IFA if the opportunity isn't taken.

No sectarianism at all.

It's not even the IFA promoting the interests of one community, it's just showing respect for them (currently only loyalism is taking up the slot - there could easily be more) .

you can't draw comparisons that way Hardy. You're not comparing apples to apples.
You're simply twisting.....

This doesn't have to be a huge issue but if enough Jack Russels make enough noise then maybe someone will listen and the Jack Russells will feel like real dogs.....

Quote from: Give and Go on March 16, 2012, 09:57:52 AM
Ye pseudo liberals have this country driven mad. Referring to the Catholic Church as a 'sect' by a poster rally sums it up.
This country is more concerned with catering for the minority weather than the majority in every area of life.
Fact is we are still Catholic in the main and a spiritual celebration is an important time for reflection. There are many religions but we can't have multiple services. The main one suffices.
Ive attended American Football games and players there regularly take to their knees before and after games to say a short prayer. No one condemns them, rather they are applauded for it.
Tolerance my ******. As long as you agree with the minority lefty liberals point of view.

Phew, at least you didn't bash us centre-right liberals.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 16, 2012, 01:24:55 PM
There is nothing everything wrong with including God in anything the GAA does.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 16, 2012, 02:37:48 PM

Quote from: Tubberman on March 16, 2012, 01:27:46 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on March 16, 2012, 01:24:55 PM
There is nothing wrong with including God in anything the GAA does.

Which God are we talking about now?

The God who has been worshiped in Ireland for centuries.

???  Banba!!!

Also the God of Saint Patrick who you can't wait to celebrate tomorrow......
Hypocrite on multiple levels.....

Let me put up a picture so my arguments carry more weight....

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on March 16, 2012, 04:34:41 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on March 16, 2012, 03:14:46 PM
What we're seeing is a systematic effort by a minority of people to remove God from everything and anything.....
The world they are striving for I believe wouldn't be a great place for any of us.

This has nothing to do with the GAA or the Congress, this is about a small group of people's hate for God and religion.....

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_sK6O7q1TURQ/Shh5y02tWVI/AAAAAAAAB_o/gkztl45Iy0w/s400/Strawman3.jpg)

surely this goes against the rule about revealing poster's identities?
;)

Quote from: The Iceman on March 16, 2012, 04:44:12 PM
Also the God of Saint Patrick who you can't wait to celebrate tomorrow......
Hypocrite on multiple levels.....

Let me put up a picture so my arguments carry more weight....

You forgot the picture :D Go on and add it retrospectively. I already answered you on Paddy's Day.

Quote from: Hardy on March 16, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
Other communities can easily request that a team of their own can play simultaneously as the protestant NI team.

The opportunity is there for other groups so don't knock the IFA if the opportunity isn't taken.

No sectarianism at all.

It's not even the IFA promoting the interests of one community, it's just showing respect for them (currently only loyalism is taking up the slot - there could easily be more) .

Time to stop all those Catholic Soccer players blessing themselves before they enter the fray. Disgraceful sectarian behaviour  ::)

Quote from: Rossfan on March 16, 2012, 04:53:09 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 16, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
Other communities can easily request that a team of their own can play simultaneously as the protestant NI team.

The opportunity is there for other groups so don't knock the IFA if the opportunity isn't taken.

No sectarianism at all.

It's not even the IFA promoting the interests of one community, it's just showing respect for them (currently only loyalism is taking up the slot - there could easily be more) .

Time to stop all those Catholic Soccer players blessing themselves before they enter the fray. Disgraceful sectarian behaviour  ::)

OK - let me see if I understand this game. Is it your go now to say something and mine to respond with something unrelated? I mightn't be here, so here's my response in advance:

The cuckoos should be stopped from laying their eggs in other birds' nests.

Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 16, 2012, 07:34:04 AM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 16, 2012, 02:44:53 AM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 16, 2012, 12:15:06 AM
If people really believe the mass is sectarian, would these people not be with-drawing their support for the organisation and indeed membership.

Translation: "Anyone who isn't a practicing catholic or who has a problem with the GAA officially endorsing a specifically catholic act of worship can f*** away off and leave the association. It's for catholics only."

where did I say any of that?

You said:

"If people really believe the mass is sectarian, would these people not be with-drawing their support for the organisation and indeed membership. "

QuoteI'm just trying to follow a bit of logic.

Keep trying.

Quote

You believe this action is sectarian, and it's obviously endorsed by the GAA heirarchy. Therefore this makes the GAA sectarian? Simple yes or no?

The rule book says it isn't, but some of its practices say it is. I say it's time for it to stick to its own rule book.

QuoteIf yes, then how why would you continue to support a sectarian organisation?

The rule book says it isn't sectarian, but some of its practices say it is. I say it's time for it to stick to its own rule book.

Quote from: camanchero on March 16, 2012, 04:15:28 PM
It's not even the Gaa promoting religion, it's showing respect for them ( currently only Catholicism that's taking up the slot right now- there could easily be more) .

It is the GAA promoting religion. Mass is listed on the clar as if it's part of official GAA business. It's an endorsement of one particular religious sect by an organization whose membership is supposed to be open to all. It sends out a message that this organization has a distinctively catholic identity which, as well as violating the official guide, undermines the hard work of the Ulster Council in reaching out to northern protestants who would feel alienated or stand-offish about getting involved in Gaelic games because of what they perceive, rightly or wrongly, as an organization with a political agenda and a religious affiliation to the catholic church.

Quote from: camanchero on March 16, 2012, 04:15:28 PM
It's not even the Gaa promoting religion, it's showing respect for them (currently only Catholicism that's taking up the slot right now- there could easily be more) .

If the clár had no business on the Sunday until lunchtime in order to facilitate those who wish to attend a religious service, that would be showing respect. Having a religious service as part of the clár is promoting it.

By your logic, if there was a slot on the clár for Fianna Fail to take the platform, that wouldn't be promotion, but showing respect for Fianna Fail supporters.

Party politics has no place in the GAA or on the clár, and neither does religion.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 16, 2012, 03:05:33 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on March 15, 2012, 07:28:38 PM
I didn't realise this was practice. Does this mean that Jack Boothman had to sit through Mass when he was President?

I have no problem with people going to Mass, but I don't see why it should be part of the programme for a secular organisation. And i'd say the same if the IFA or Ulster Rugby were having a Service for one of the Protestant denominations as part of their congress (or equivalent). The GAA is not a Catholic organisation, it's an Irish sporting and cultural organisation.

Exactly it has no mandate to be multi cuktural.

Where have I asked it to be multi-cultural? I haven't. But where is its mandate to be Catholic?

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 16, 2012, 03:05:33 PM
I think if more people attended religious services, whether mass or other Ireland would be a better place.

Well we all know exactly what happened when Ireland was under the thumb of the Church. It had its own unique take on morality. I wouldn't call that a 'better place', or one that many would like to go back to.

Who said the following:

But the priests did not stop here, and their commands were, 'Have nothing to do with these heretics—curse them, hoot at them, spit in their faces—cut the sign of the cross in the air when you meet them, as you would against devils—throw stones at them—pitch them, when you have opportunity, into the bog holes—nay more than that, do injury to yourselves in order to injure them—don't work for them, though they pay in ready money—nay, don't take any medicine from their heretic doctor [Neason Adams], rather die first'.

http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume8/issue3/features/?id=239 (http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume8/issue3/features/?id=239)

An Irish Priest to his starving congregation.

Quote from: Hardy on March 16, 2012, 05:09:18 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on March 16, 2012, 04:53:09 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 16, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
Other communities can easily request that a team of their own can play simultaneously as the protestant NI team.

The opportunity is there for other groups so don't knock the IFA if the opportunity isn't taken.

No sectarianism at all.

It's not even the IFA promoting the interests of one community, it's just showing respect for them (currently only loyalism is taking up the slot - there could easily be more) .

Time to stop all those Catholic Soccer players blessing themselves before they enter the fray. Disgraceful sectarian behaviour  ::)

OK - let me see if I understand this game. Is it your go now to say something and mine to respond with something unrelated? .

YOU  ;)brought up soccer on a GAA/Catholic issue. I responded about a Catholic/Soccer habit.
You are the one bringing up unrelated things. :P

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 16, 2012, 05:13:04 PM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 16, 2012, 07:34:04 AM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 16, 2012, 02:44:53 AM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 16, 2012, 12:15:06 AM
If people really believe the mass is sectarian, would these people not be with-drawing their support for the organisation and indeed membership.

Translation: "Anyone who isn't a practicing catholic or who has a problem with the GAA officially endorsing a specifically catholic act of worship can f*** away off and leave the association. It's for catholics only."

where did I say any of that?

You said:

"If people really believe the mass is sectarian, would these people not be with-drawing their support for the organisation and indeed membership. "

QuoteI'm just trying to follow a bit of logic.

Keep trying.

Quote

You believe this action is sectarian, and it's obviously endorsed by the GAA heirarchy. Therefore this makes the GAA sectarian? Simple yes or no?

The rule book says it isn't, but some of its practices say it is. I say it's time for it to stick to its own rule book.

QuoteIf yes, then how why would you continue to support a sectarian organisation?

The rule book says it isn't sectarian, but some of its practices say it is. I say it's time for it to stick to its own rule book.

you Havently really cleared anything up there. My quote says nothing about the GAA being pro catholic. So again I'm not sure where your getting that rant from.
I'm just making the point that if you feel this is sectarian by the GAA and it's obviously endorsed by the GAA heirarchy people could regard the organisation as being sectarian regardless of it's rulebook. Some people would see more from an organisations actions rather than it's words as to whether or not it's sectarian.   

Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 16, 2012, 07:26:55 PM
you Havently really cleared anything up there. My quote says nothing about the GAA being pro catholic. So again I'm not sure where your getting that rant from.
I'm just making the point that if you feel this is sectarian by the GAA and it's obviously endorsed by the GAA heirarchy people could regard the organisation as being sectarian regardless of it's rulebook. Some people would see more from an organisations actions rather than it's words as to whether or not it's sectarian.

No, I have answered your question. I just haven't answered it  to your satisfaction. The rule book says that the organization is not sectarian.  By promoting one specific religion at an official level then it is acting in a sectarian manner.

I've answered the question as I see fit, not from a limited set of replies deemed acceptable by you.

Well I agree it's not answered to my satifaction. Cause to me it seems that your happy that the GAA is not sectarian because of a few lines in it's rulebook rather than by the actions it takes. And I admit that's not logic I follow but each to their own.

Lads why does a sporting organisation need to have a religious service or support one politics over the other. No need for Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, FG, SF, FF, LAB, DUP, UUP etc. in the GAA, lets just have people.

A morally and ethically confused debate, which fails to address the real problems,  the moral vaccum and the loss or lack of indentity in Irish society

Quote from: shawshank on March 15, 2012, 04:07:48 PM
I thought Ireland was developing into a mutlicutural society, and here the GAA wants to be directly linked to the catholic church. A very wrong strategy.  dino thinking

Let's get back to the Archbishop throwing the ball in, asap.

Quote from: Pangurban on March 16, 2012, 08:25:16 PM
A morally and ethically confused debate, which fails to address the real problems,  the moral vaccum and the loss or lack of indentity in Irish society

So let's hear your views on the moral vacuum and loss of identity then.

I suppose the northern republicans/nationalists would have no issue with the ifa having a protestant service as part of their agm, given that protestantism is the largest of the religious make up of ifa people. Im sure no one would be on here giving out about it.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 16, 2012, 05:19:14 PM

Quote from: camanchero on March 16, 2012, 04:15:28 PM
It's not even the Gaa promoting religion, it's showing respect for them ( currently only Catholicism that's taking up the slot right now- there could easily be more) .

It is the GAA promoting religion. Mass is listed on the clar as if it's part of official GAA business. It's an endorsement of one particular religious sect by an organization whose membership is supposed to be open to all. It sends out a message that this organization has a distinctively catholic identity which, as well as violating the official guide, undermines the hard work of the Ulster Council in reaching out to northern protestants who would feel alienated or stand-offish about getting involved in Gaelic games because of what they perceive, rightly or wrongly, as an organization with a political agenda and a religious affiliation to the catholic church.

Nope -it is enabling it not promoting it.
Where does it say that people MUST attend it!

Mylestheslasher
It's almost surprising that the Ifa don't have a service, a ritual burning of a papal effigy and the Irish flag as well as multiple orange order uvf unionist/loyalist bands and shows of gun toting nut jobs as part of their ceremony wtc
As long as they allowed other religious ceremonies to take place simultaneously then why not!

So what if they burn tri colours, sure you dont have to attend!

It IS promoting it. By listing it on the agenda they elevate mass to the status of being an official part of the GAA congress proceedings. There are various side workshops over the congress weekend dealing with various topics such as games development, refereeing, coaching etc. Attendance at these is not compulsory but as long as they're listed as part of the order of business then they are all officially endorsed by the association.

What is really wrong with endorsing it or supporting it or promoting it?
If this was an isolated argument and debate I would give your opinions more respect and time, but this is just another example of your quest to remove God from the world. Whether it affects you or not - you don't want anyone else to believe or follow.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 17, 2012, 12:00:38 AM
What is really wrong with endorsing it or supporting it or promoting it?
If this was an isolated argument and debate I would give your opinions more respect and time, but this is just another example of your quest to remove God from the world. Whether it affects you or not - you don't want anyone else to believe or follow.

(http://image.yaymicro.com/rz_1210x1210/0/c1f/talking-to-a-brick-wall-c1f299.jpg)

Wow, extraordinary debate.

IMO, being non-sectarian as mentioned in the guide, means not discriminating against or causing offense to people of differing religious beliefs. It does not mean we cannot acknowledge that the majority of members are catholic.

We don't even know what the official wording on the Clar re this mass is, but regardless of that its not sectarian in itself. It doesn't discriminate because you are not forced to go and you are free to organise whatever you want yourself. It also should not cause offence to people of other beliefs.

There are clearly people who are offended by this mass, inlcuding posters on here. I strongly believe its safe to pigeon hole these people into two categories (granted some of them will pretend otherwise):

1. Those who aren't offended themselves, but take offence because they think it might offend someone else (even though they don't actually know anyone who is offended)! The "let's try and find offence where none exists" brigade. I've no time for these people. Let these keyboard warriors wallow in the misery this clearly causes them and have a good laugh at the nonsense they type!

2. Those who hate the catholic religion. These people are fully entitled to their view. This does not mean the mass is sectarian (certainly no more sectarian than calling our stadium after an archbishop or many of our clubs after saints). These people do have a right to use the proper channels to try and remove mass and whatever other stuff they don't like, but again doesn't mean mentioning the mass on the clar is sectarian.

I think of an example of me going to live in Moldovia where a large majority are members of the Church of Moldovia and the national game is tiddlywinks (a non-sectarian sport according to their guide). I'm welcomed in and become an avid player and attend the annual tiddlywinks congress. I see on the schedule there is a break for an hour for a Church of Moldovia service. As a reasonable person would this cause me offence? Of course not. I would link up with someone else who had no interest in attending the service and go for a coffee or a pint or whatever.

My conclusion: Mentioning mass taking place is not sectarian.

Hard to beat a good long Mass before a feed of pratai.

Hound - thanks for the new pigeon holes you've designed for me, but I won't be moving in, because, well, neither of them is really me - you know?

I don’t need to respond in kind and call you either a deluded keyboard warrior or a crank because I’m here to discuss, not to insult anybody. Well, not as a first resort, anyway. Also, I don't need to start with a home-made re-definition of some key words to try and make my post make sense.

(No comment on the unwitting appropriateness of your analogy in that the place to which you chose to emigrate to pursue your tiddlywinks career doesn’t exist.)

Simple question number three: If including a catholic mass in the agenda of congress doesn’t breach the non-sectarian rule, would including a two-hour Fine Gael rally on the agenda be a breach of the non-party political rule? (Hint: I’m talking about a hypothetical agenda item that says “Fine Gael rally” - as the current one says "Mass" - not one that says “Break for political meetings according to delegates’ preferences”.) Leave aside the question of what business either religious services or political rallies have at a meeting of a sporting and cultural organisation.

.....as long as any break allowed for any party to have its own thing then it would be equal
However
The GAA is not political so changes would have to be Made to the constitution as its not allowed according to that.
The current rules only disallow sectarianism which the enabling of time for a mass (and I expect for any willing religion) does not contravene! Allowing is not the same as promoting!!


Maybe in time there could be breaks to enable commercial seminars- and if it brought in extra revenue , I doubt if the GAA would turn it down - again I don't believe this contravenes the constitution - that your political analagy does!

Why isnt there such a fuss over the GAA and numerous other 'non-sectarian' organisations promoting St Patricks day, an undoubtedly Christian festival?

It's actually a pagan festival Ostara, celebrating the rebirth of nature, like everything else it the Catholic world it was robbed and re-christened..

St Patricks day is a pagan festival? How does that work?

Quote from: haranguerer on March 17, 2012, 11:32:48 AM
St Patricks day is a pagan festival? How does that work?

What does 17th March commemorate?  His Birth, his Death, his arrival in Ireland the first time, his arrival back in Ireland?

Ostara sounds good to me.

Quote from: hardstation on March 17, 2012, 12:05:16 AM
It's only a f**king mass, would yis wise the fcuk up.

Took the words out of my mouth and I say that as someone who has as much heed in mass as the man in the moon.
No one is going to be marched at gun point to it.

Myles, normally you're sensible but comparing a mass to the burning of flags, get a grip!
And if the IFA wanted to do something similar for a protestant service then fine by me. 


Would most of your clubs not hold yearly masses for deceased members or is that an Armagh thing?

Clár Offigiúl:

0730: Wake up call, le céile.

0735. 5 minute snooze (because most lads like a snooze).

0737: Official collective brushing of the Association teeth (because well most members brush their teeth).

0740: Official collective showering of delegates (delegates are free to skip this if they are uncomfortable).

0801: Official walk of delegates for a chat (because well most delegates like a walk and a chat).

0830: Official breakfast of porridge (because well according to Congress sponsors Flahavans, most delegates like their porridge).

0930: Congress.

11.15 Official tea with milk and one sugar with Marietta (as, well, most lads like it that way...).

1130: Congress.

13.00 Dinner (because most lads like it in the middle of the dae). Bacon and cabbage with meat and two veg.

14.00 Official walk to the bookies because most lads like to have a punt.

14.15 Congress.

1630. End


To be perfectly honest I can't see where they get the time to fit in a mass.



N.B. not to be taken seriously

Quote from: Denn Forever on March 17, 2012, 11:39:23 AM

Quote from: haranguerer on March 17, 2012, 11:32:48 AM
St Patricks day is a pagan festival? How does that work?

What does 17th March commemorate?  His Birth, his Death, his arrival in Ireland the first time, his arrival back in Ireland?

Ostara sounds good to me.

I didnt mention the 17th of March. I said St Patricks day. Whatever used to be celebrated at or around that time is of no relevance.

Pints - i didnt bring the burning of flags into this. I compared it to the ifa having a protestant service at their agm.

Quote from: haranguerer on March 17, 2012, 10:47:36 AM
Why isnt there such a fuss over the GAA and numerous other 'non-sectarian' organisations promoting St Patricks day, an undoubtedly Christian festival?

I'd imagine most people see St Patrick's day as being the country's national day. It's probably further removed from religion than Christmas at this stage.

Quote from: Maguire01 on March 17, 2012, 04:30:31 PM

Quote from: haranguerer on March 17, 2012, 10:47:36 AM
Why isnt there such a fuss over the GAA and numerous other 'non-sectarian' organisations promoting St Patricks day, an undoubtedly Christian festival?

I'd imagine most people see St Patrick's day as being the country's national day. It's probably further removed from religion than Christmas at this stage.

Indeed. In the states its like Halloween at this stage with all the dressing up in the silly leprechaun costumes, green hats, green and orange beards and moustaches and all the rest of it. Throw in the green beer and the corned beef and cabbage and soda bread. Religion doesn't really enter into the picture. Its all about Irishness.

As for the topic of the thread, at this stage the GAA should be divorcing itself from the catholic church if we seriously claim to be a sporting organization welcoming people from all backgrounds.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 15, 2012, 05:29:16 PM
The NY Jets have a Mass every week before games for those who want to attend.....

This is getting ridiculous...... it's funny the only discrimination tolerated is to be anti-catholic......

FFS Iceman, you never miss a chance to complain about the victim status of the downtrodden catholic or christian!

You're not being persecuted or discriminated against here either! All the issues you're complaining about are equivalent to unionists complaining that they're victims because their former dominant role has been reduced to one of mere equality!

Grow up!

Somehow I don't expect to see too many people protesting against sectarianism outside GAA Congress or the Mass in local Church. Then again some Harryville veterans might be available.

I think the logic of Hardy's position is difficult to escape. It seems like a tradition which is a relic ffrom a time when the Catholic Church held an unhealthy role in Irish society and held particular sway within the GAA (and I say that as a practicising Catholic).

While this example would seem to be outwith the letter of the rule to which Hardy refers, are all such traditions offending the rule's spirit? Should our local club end the tradition of having a Mass each year in memory of the deceased members of the club? As an aside, I seem to recall that the stand in Crossmaglen was blessed during a multi-denominational ceremony however I suspect that the local priest alone fulfills a similar role in other pitches / stadiums throughout the county.

We'll all be saying 'Happy holidays' before long.

f**king hell. Some boys will rare up over anything...

Only now am I having my eyes opened to the widespread sectarianism in the GAA.

The two clubs named after the Catholic parishes in my town, will surely have to rename themselves, blatant sectarianism there.

The pitch/clubhouse/changing rooms etc dedications and blessings, they need stopped, more official acts of sectarianism.

Honourary positions for clergymen, that also needs to stop.

Mass for deceased club members, more sectarianism.

Sure the Our Father at the start of the AGM every year, that'll go too.

Two of the biggest institutions in Ireland are obviously going to intertwine now and again and how something as insignificant as a frigging mass has got ten pages is beyond me. Not like we have the u8s doing decades of the rosary before training every  Sunday morning.

Et tu Jinxy. I despair. This is so removed from the politically correct agenda I despise. We can't have "mass" on the agenda if we're trying to pretend the GAA is for everybody. Is that not obvious?

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 12:45:37 AM
f**king hell. Some boys will rare up over anything...

Only now am I having my eyes opened to the widespread sectarianism in the GAA.

The two clubs named after the Catholic parishes in my town, will surely have to rename themselves, blatant sectarianism there.

The pitch/clubhouse/changing rooms etc dedications and blessings, they need stopped, more official acts of sectarianism.

Honourary positions for clergymen, that also needs to stop.

Mass for deceased club members, more sectarianism.

Sure the Our Father at the start of the AGM every year, that'll go too.

Two of the biggest institutions in Ireland are obviously going to intertwine now and again and how something as insignificant as a frigging mass has got ten pages is beyond me. Not like we have the u8s doing decades of the rosary before training every  Sunday morning.

Those 2 for sure have no place in the GAA. I would be actually more concerned about the clubs/pitches up North names after those from the 1981 thread.

Quote from: Hardy on March 19, 2012, 02:14:28 AM
Et tu Jinxy. I despair. This is so removed from the politically correct agenda I despise. We can't have "mass" on the agenda if we're trying to pretend the GAA is for everybody. Is that not obvious?

Why do ya want a Mass, can you not find the church yourself. Do ya not have 3 or 4 Masses to choose from every sunday morning, one on saturay night, 7 am Masses in some churches. There is Mass all day every day in places like Knock or Lourdes. FFS go to Mass/Church/Chapel/Temple or Mosque just keep it out of the GAA.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 19, 2012, 12:16:44 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 19, 2012, 02:14:28 AM
Et tu Jinxy. I despair. This is so removed from the politically correct agenda I despise. We can't have "mass" on the agenda if we're trying to pretend the GAA is for everybody. Is that not obvious?

Why do ya want a Mass, can you not find the church yourself. Do ya not have 3 or 4 Masses to choose from every sunday morning, one on saturay night, 7 am Masses in some churches. There is Mass all day every day in places like Knock or Lourdes. FFS go to Mass/Church/Chapel/Temple or Mosque just keep it out of the GAA.

MGHU you should re-read Hardy's post.

Quote from: muppet on March 19, 2012, 12:25:51 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 19, 2012, 12:16:44 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 19, 2012, 02:14:28 AM
Et tu Jinxy. I despair. This is so removed from the politically correct agenda I despise. We can't have "mass" on the agenda if we're trying to pretend the GAA is for everybody. Is that not obvious?

Why does ya anyone want a Mass, can you they not find the church yourself themselves. Do ya not have 3 or 4 Masses to choose from every sunday morning, one on saturay night, 7 am Masses in some churches. There is Mass all day every day in places like Knock or Lourdes. FFS go to Mass/Church/Chapel/Temple or Mosque just keep it out of the GAA.

MGHU you should re-read Hardy's post.

Poor use of grammar by myself.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 19, 2012, 12:13:17 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 12:45:37 AM
f**king hell. Some boys will rare up over anything...

Only now am I having my eyes opened to the widespread sectarianism in the GAA.

The two clubs named after the Catholic parishes in my town, will surely have to rename themselves, blatant sectarianism there.

The pitch/clubhouse/changing rooms etc dedications and blessings, they need stopped, more official acts of sectarianism.

Honourary positions for clergymen, that also needs to stop.

Mass for deceased club members, more sectarianism.

Sure the Our Father at the start of the AGM every year, that'll go too.

Two of the biggest institutions in Ireland are obviously going to intertwine now and again and how something as insignificant as a frigging mass has got ten pages is beyond me. Not like we have the u8s doing decades of the rosary before training every  Sunday morning.

Those 2 for sure have no place in the GAA. I would be actually more concerned about the clubs/pitches up North names after those from the 1981 thread.

I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 19, 2012, 12:13:17 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 12:45:37 AM
f**king hell. Some boys will rare up over anything...

Only now am I having my eyes opened to the widespread sectarianism in the GAA.

The two clubs named after the Catholic parishes in my town, will surely have to rename themselves, blatant sectarianism there.

The pitch/clubhouse/changing rooms etc dedications and blessings, they need stopped, more official acts of sectarianism.

Honourary positions for clergymen, that also needs to stop.

Mass for deceased club members, more sectarianism.

Sure the Our Father at the start of the AGM every year, that'll go too.

Two of the biggest institutions in Ireland are obviously going to intertwine now and again and how something as insignificant as a frigging mass has got ten pages is beyond me. Not like we have the u8s doing decades of the rosary before training every  Sunday morning.

Those 2 for sure have no place in the GAA. I would be actually more concerned about the clubs/pitches up North names after those from the 1981 thread.

I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

A sure you probably haven't experienced sectariansim to the level that people in Israel, the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights. The issue is that there is no place for God in the GAA, much the same way that the citizens, those governed by and taxpayers within the U.K. should not have the head of state a sectarian monarch. Even if as a person she is nice enough, and even if the sectarianism is only a soft your excluded sort rather than open oppression.

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 19, 2012, 12:13:17 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 12:45:37 AM
f**king hell. Some boys will rare up over anything...

Only now am I having my eyes opened to the widespread sectarianism in the GAA.

The two clubs named after the Catholic parishes in my town, will surely have to rename themselves, blatant sectarianism there.

The pitch/clubhouse/changing rooms etc dedications and blessings, they need stopped, more official acts of sectarianism.

Honourary positions for clergymen, that also needs to stop.

Mass for deceased club members, more sectarianism.

Sure the Our Father at the start of the AGM every year, that'll go too.

Two of the biggest institutions in Ireland are obviously going to intertwine now and again and how something as insignificant as a frigging mass has got ten pages is beyond me. Not like we have the u8s doing decades of the rosary before training every  Sunday morning.

Those 2 for sure have no place in the GAA. I would be actually more concerned about the clubs/pitches up North names after those from the 1981 thread.

I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

It is ridiculous to attach the label sectarianism to activities that are reasonably seen as normal and inoffensive.

For me it is just from an era of hang-sangwiches, flat-caps and kissing the Bishop's ring. Anyone for the last few choc-ices now?

Quote from: muppet on March 19, 2012, 01:57:08 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 19, 2012, 12:13:17 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 12:45:37 AM
f**king hell. Some boys will rare up over anything...

Only now am I having my eyes opened to the widespread sectarianism in the GAA.

The two clubs named after the Catholic parishes in my town, will surely have to rename themselves, blatant sectarianism there.

The pitch/clubhouse/changing rooms etc dedications and blessings, they need stopped, more official acts of sectarianism.

Honourary positions for clergymen, that also needs to stop.

Mass for deceased club members, more sectarianism.

Sure the Our Father at the start of the AGM every year, that'll go too.

Two of the biggest institutions in Ireland are obviously going to intertwine now and again and how something as insignificant as a frigging mass has got ten pages is beyond me. Not like we have the u8s doing decades of the rosary before training every  Sunday morning.

Those 2 for sure have no place in the GAA. I would be actually more concerned about the clubs/pitches up North names after those from the 1981 thread.

I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

It is ridiculous to attach the label sectarianism to activities that are reasonably seen as normal and inoffensive.

For me it is just from an era of hang-sangwiches, flat-caps and kissing the Bishop's ring. Anyone for the last few choc-ices now?

They're maybe 'reasonable, normal and inoffensive' to you and I, but what about people from other creeds who may like to give our sports a go, but are put off by such activities?

There's plenty of threads on here about NI flags, union jacks and GSTQ being played at Windsor Park and are considered reasonable, normal and inoffensive by the majority of patrons there.

There's no need to have a mass at the convention, fair enough free up time for those going to attend their place of worship, but it should be outside the confines of the GAA.

Quote from: johnneycool on March 19, 2012, 02:17:29 PM

Quote from: muppet on March 19, 2012, 01:57:08 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 19, 2012, 12:13:17 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 12:45:37 AM
f**king hell. Some boys will rare up over anything...

Only now am I having my eyes opened to the widespread sectarianism in the GAA.

The two clubs named after the Catholic parishes in my town, will surely have to rename themselves, blatant sectarianism there.

The pitch/clubhouse/changing rooms etc dedications and blessings, they need stopped, more official acts of sectarianism.

Honourary positions for clergymen, that also needs to stop.

Mass for deceased club members, more sectarianism.

Sure the Our Father at the start of the AGM every year, that'll go too.

Two of the biggest institutions in Ireland are obviously going to intertwine now and again and how something as insignificant as a frigging mass has got ten pages is beyond me. Not like we have the u8s doing decades of the rosary before training every  Sunday morning.

Those 2 for sure have no place in the GAA. I would be actually more concerned about the clubs/pitches up North names after those from the 1981 thread.

I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

It is ridiculous to attach the label sectarianism to activities that are reasonably seen as normal and inoffensive.

For me it is just from an era of hang-sangwiches, flat-caps and kissing the Bishop's ring. Anyone for the last few choc-ices now?

They're maybe 'reasonable, normal and inoffensive' to you and I, but what about people from other creeds who may like to give our sports a go, but are put off by such activities?

There's plenty of threads on here about NI flags, union jacks and GSTQ being played at Windsor Park and are considered reasonable, normal and inoffensive by the majority of patrons there.

There's no need to have a mass at the convention, fair enough free up time for those going to attend their place of worship, but it should be outside the confines of the GAA.

I didn't make it very clear but I am with you on that.

Quote from: Hardy on March 19, 2012, 02:14:28 AM
Et tu Jinxy. I despair. This is so removed from the politically correct agenda I despise. We can't have "mass" on the agenda if we're trying to pretend the GAA is for everybody. Is that not obvious?

I was taking the tongue in cheek 'where will it all end?' line.
After watching the match in Navan yesterday I was left in doubt that there is no God.

If there is a God, this league campaign will have the ending I'd fervently pray for - Banty gone back up the road.

He can take half the players with him as far as I'm concerned.

Look lets clear this up. When you systematically start threads calling for the removal of religion or God from politics, education and now the GAA and then reply to anyone who sees the grander scheme of your efforts that their comments are weak strawmen posts, I'm going to call it what it is : BULLSHIT.....

Will delegates be allowed to engage in Congress during the mass? 

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 03:09:55 PM
Look lets clear this up. When you systematically start threads calling for the removal of religion or God from politics, education and now the GAA and then reply to anyone who sees the grander scheme of your efforts that their comments are weak strawmen posts, I'm going to call it what it is : BULLSHIT.....

If you post up a straw man it'll be labelled a straw man.

You know rightly what you're doing. Call it for what it is. None of this is random. It's all systematic.
You're a coward..... hiding behind pictures.....

Quote from: Hardy on March 19, 2012, 02:51:05 PM
If there is a God, this league campaign will have the ending I'd fervently pray for - Banty gone back up the road.

We'd welcome him back with open arms! Wanna do a swap?

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM
I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

Any other assumptions you'd like to make?

I once applied for a job in Crazy Prices in Craigavon. The boy picked up the phone, I told him I was interested in the job.  He asked "What' your name?"  I gave him my (good catholic) name. He said "Give me your number and we'll call you back."  If I told him my name was Campbell Crozier I'll bet he'd have asked when I could start.

I was once introduced to a fella from Limavady.  My mate told him my name.  He took one look at me and said "______?  Bad Irish name, that."

We once had a "Jesus saves" business studies tutor at the tech, she would get sidetracked in every lesson and turn it into a sermon about how your eternal salvation can only be found through Christ.  She openly said that she had "no time" for atheists or agnostics, and mocked the Jewish practice of rocking back and forward as they prayed, saying she felt sad that these learned men were all going to hell.  None of us dared object because she had the power to lower our grades (which she promptly did as soon as she found out that some of us didn't go to church).

I used to work around Belfast doing deliveries on the Falls, Shankill, and places like Ballybeen where the graffiti on the wall says "Irish out."  My assistant would address me by my real name in the catholic areas and a fake name in the other areas in case I were to be set upon and bate. 

I'm quite familiar with the old routine of asking "is he one of ours or one of theirs" whenever a new person gets hired.

I'm quite familiar with sectarianism thank you very much.  All the more reason for me to be concerned about religion being shoved down other peoples' throats in every part of daily life.  If you're "indifferent" to such practices it's because people have been conditioned into thinking that it's okay for GAA clubs and meetings to have a distinctly catholic identity and they have no concept of how off-putting it looks to non catholics.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 19, 2012, 12:13:17 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 12:45:37 AM
f**king hell. Some boys will rare up over anything...

Only now am I having my eyes opened to the widespread sectarianism in the GAA.

The two clubs named after the Catholic parishes in my town, will surely have to rename themselves, blatant sectarianism there.

The pitch/clubhouse/changing rooms etc dedications and blessings, they need stopped, more official acts of sectarianism.

Honourary positions for clergymen, that also needs to stop.

Mass for deceased club members, more sectarianism.

Sure the Our Father at the start of the AGM every year, that'll go too.

Two of the biggest institutions in Ireland are obviously going to intertwine now and again and how something as insignificant as a frigging mass has got ten pages is beyond me. Not like we have the u8s doing decades of the rosary before training every  Sunday morning.

Those 2 for sure have no place in the GAA.

Agreed on those two.

If the priest has been an integral part of the club, then of course he is as entitled to an honorary position as any other club member... but not just because he is a priest.

As for the 'Our Father', well that's essentially the same issue as the mass at congress.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 03:44:25 PM
You know rightly what you're doing. Call it for what it is. None of this is random. It's all systematic.
You're a coward..... hiding behind pictures.....

We must pick up our crosses daily.

There seems to be a lot of non-random systematic posters here.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 19, 2012, 03:54:13 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM
I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

Any other assumptions you'd like to make?

I'm quite familiar with sectarianism thank you very much.  All the more reason for me to be concerned about religion being shoved down other peoples' throats in every part of daily life.  If you're "indifferent" to such practices it's because people have been conditioned into thinking that it's okay for GAA clubs and meetings to have a distinctly catholic identity and they have no concept of how off-putting it looks to non catholics.

Atheists used to be content with live and let live..... now they have switched their tactics from simply sneering at believers to becoming more militant in their efforts to dissuade anyone who will listen from believing in God.  The new tactic is to shove their opinions down everyone's throat with books, videos, tv programmes, articles, lectures and urban billboard messages.Their goal isn't to just practice their own non-belief but to convince believers to stop believing and join them in the 'fold'.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 04:40:06 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 19, 2012, 03:54:13 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM
I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

Any other assumptions you'd like to make?

I'm quite familiar with sectarianism thank you very much.  All the more reason for me to be concerned about religion being shoved down other peoples' throats in every part of daily life.  If you're "indifferent" to such practices it's because people have been conditioned into thinking that it's okay for GAA clubs and meetings to have a distinctly catholic identity and they have no concept of how off-putting it looks to non catholics.

Atheists used to be content with live and let live..... now they have switched their tactics from simply sneering at believers to becoming more militant in their efforts to dissuade anyone who will listen from believing in God.  The new tactic is to shove their opinions down everyone's throat with books, videos, tv programmes, articles, lectures and urban billboard messages.Their goal isn't to just practice their own non-belief but to convince believers to stop believing and join them in the 'fold'.

You're losing the plot iceman. You have pretty much just described the catholic church in irelands "tactics" there and alleged the athiests have done the same! Are you as critical of the catholic church when they were doing the exact same?

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 04:40:06 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 19, 2012, 03:54:13 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM
I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

Any other assumptions you'd like to make?

I'm quite familiar with sectarianism thank you very much.  All the more reason for me to be concerned about religion being shoved down other peoples' throats in every part of daily life.  If you're "indifferent" to such practices it's because people have been conditioned into thinking that it's okay for GAA clubs and meetings to have a distinctly catholic identity and they have no concept of how off-putting it looks to non catholics.

Atheists used to be content with live and let live..... now they have switched their tactics from simply sneering at believers to becoming more militant in their efforts to dissuade anyone who will listen from believing in God.  The new tactic is to shove their opinions down everyone's throat with books, videos, tv programmes, articles, lectures and urban billboard messages.Their goal isn't to just practice their own non-belief but to convince believers to stop believing and join them in the 'fold'.

You are misreading this in your paranoia.

The 'atheists' here are probably mainly lapsed Catholics and are not part of an atheist recruitment drive, more likely they want to see some serious changes in the Church before something like our national games can be associated so closely with them.

As for this: ' The new tactic is to shove their opinions down everyone's throat with books, videos, tv programmes, articles, lectures and urban billboard messages.Their goal isn't to just practice their own non-belief but to convince believers to stop believing and join them in the 'fold''. That is precisely what the Church has done for hundreds of years, you seem to be using it as an insult.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 04:40:06 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 19, 2012, 03:54:13 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM
I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

Any other assumptions you'd like to make?

I'm quite familiar with sectarianism thank you very much.  All the more reason for me to be concerned about religion being shoved down other peoples' throats in every part of daily life.  If you're "indifferent" to such practices it's because people have been conditioned into thinking that it's okay for GAA clubs and meetings to have a distinctly catholic identity and they have no concept of how off-putting it looks to non catholics.

Atheists used to be content with live and let live..... now they have switched their tactics from simply sneering at believers to becoming more militant in their efforts to dissuade anyone who will listen from believing in God.  The new tactic is to shove their opinions down everyone's throat with books, videos, tv programmes, articles, lectures and urban billboard messages.Their goal isn't to just practice their own non-belief but to convince believers to stop believing and join them in the 'fold'.

Reminds me of R. Lee Ermey's mayor character in Mississippi Burning complaining about the civil rights movement in the US southern states, saying before the agitation began that "our nigras were happy". They basically knew their place and kept theor heads down, which of course ignored the fact that the facade of order had nothing to do with happiness and everything to do with their subserviant, helpless status. Not saying the lot of the atheist is equivalent to the lot of the poor southern African American under segregation, but that you seem to be longing for the time when atheists too knew their place and wouldn't dare to challenge the status quo. Given the still dominant role of religion in general and catholicism in particular on Irish society, I don't know what the hell you're so afraid of and insecure about. If your position is so defensible, why do you care that atheists are, not before time, staking a claim in the public arena?

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 19, 2012, 03:54:13 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM
I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

Any other assumptions you'd like to make?

I once applied for a job in Crazy Prices in Craigavon. The boy picked up the phone, I told him I was interested in the job.  He asked "What' your name?"  I gave him my (good catholic) name. He said "Give me your number and we'll call you back."  If I told him my name was Campbell Crozier I'll bet he'd have asked when I could start.

I was once introduced to a fella from Limavady.  My mate told him my name.  He took one look at me and said "______?  Bad Irish name, that."

We once had a "Jesus saves" business studies tutor at the tech, she would get sidetracked in every lesson and turn it into a sermon about how your eternal salvation can only be found through Christ.  She openly said that she had "no time" for atheists or agnostics, and mocked the Jewish practice of rocking back and forward as they prayed, saying she felt sad that these learned men were all going to hell.  None of us dared object because she had the power to lower our grades (which she promptly did as soon as she found out that some of us didn't go to church).

I used to work around Belfast doing deliveries on the Falls, Shankill, and places like Ballybeen where the graffiti on the wall says "Irish out."  My assistant would address me by my real name in the catholic areas and a fake name in the other areas in case I were to be set upon and bate. 

I'm quite familiar with the old routine of asking "is he one of ours or one of theirs" whenever a new person gets hired.

I'm quite familiar with sectarianism thank you very much.  All the more reason for me to be concerned about religion being shoved down other peoples' throats in every part of daily life.  If you're "indifferent" to such practices it's because people have been conditioned into thinking that it's okay for GAA clubs and meetings to have a distinctly catholic identity and they have no concept of how off-putting it looks to non catholics.

I am indifferent because they mean f**k all to me either way. I'm not losing any sleep now and I'll not lose any sleep if they're discontinued - I'm sure the same applies for the vast majority of GAA members.

My whole point is/was that describing a mass at congress as sectarian is over the top.  I am not necessarily saying removing these type of practices would be a bad thing, just that some people are inaccurate in calling them sectarian - certainly in the context in which the GAA (in Ulster anyway) would be familiar with. 

You just went and listed a whole load of experiences in your little rant which are in no way similar to the GAA having mass at congress which kind of proved my point, so thanks for that.

In fairness Christ said go and make disciples of all..... In order to that evangelisation is required.
The new Atheist movement is to replace Christianity with Naturalism / Materialism (not in the Madonna sense of the word)

There is a big difference between a lapsed Catholic and a committed Atheist. The likes of Eamonn (correct me if I am wrong) appears strongly devoted to proselytising others and cast a broad net of doubt regarding belief in God.

It really has nothing to do with Paranoia. There has been a definite shift from live and let live by Atheists, to going on the offense against believers. The neutral posters on the board only have to look at the threads: Take religion out of State, Take religion out of Education, Take religion out of the GAA, take religion of St. Patrick's day.....

Quote from: J70 on March 19, 2012, 05:40:31 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 04:40:06 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 19, 2012, 03:54:13 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM
I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

Any other assumptions you'd like to make?

I'm quite familiar with sectarianism thank you very much.  All the more reason for me to be concerned about religion being shoved down other peoples' throats in every part of daily life.  If you're "indifferent" to such practices it's because people have been conditioned into thinking that it's okay for GAA clubs and meetings to have a distinctly catholic identity and they have no concept of how off-putting it looks to non catholics.

Atheists used to be content with live and let live..... now they have switched their tactics from simply sneering at believers to becoming more militant in their efforts to dissuade anyone who will listen from believing in God.  The new tactic is to shove their opinions down everyone's throat with books, videos, tv programmes, articles, lectures and urban billboard messages.Their goal isn't to just practice their own non-belief but to convince believers to stop believing and join them in the 'fold'.

Reminds me of R. Lee Ermey's mayor character in Mississippi Burning complaining about the civil rights movement in the US southern states, saying before the agitation began that "our nigras were happy". They basically knew their place and kept theor heads down, which of course ignored the fact that the facade of order had nothing to do with happiness and everything to do with their subserviant, helpless status. Not saying the lot of the atheist is equivalent to the lot of the poor southern African American under segregation, but that you seem to be longing for the time when atheists too knew their place and wouldn't dare to challenge the status quo. Given the still dominant role of religion in general and catholicism in particular on Irish society, I don't know what the hell you're so afraid of and insecure about. If your position is so defensible, why do you care that atheists are, not before time, staking a claim in the public arena?

Now you're just being foolish trying to paint pictures and conjure up emotions....
I don't think you fully grasp Atheism and what it really means. Perhaps Eamonn could start and thread and enlighten us all......... and maybe put forward some great examples of real Atheism in action.....

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 05:51:59 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 19, 2012, 05:40:31 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 04:40:06 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 19, 2012, 03:54:13 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM
I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

Any other assumptions you'd like to make?

I'm quite familiar with sectarianism thank you very much.  All the more reason for me to be concerned about religion being shoved down other peoples' throats in every part of daily life.  If you're "indifferent" to such practices it's because people have been conditioned into thinking that it's okay for GAA clubs and meetings to have a distinctly catholic identity and they have no concept of how off-putting it looks to non catholics.

Atheists used to be content with live and let live..... now they have switched their tactics from simply sneering at believers to becoming more militant in their efforts to dissuade anyone who will listen from believing in God.  The new tactic is to shove their opinions down everyone's throat with books, videos, tv programmes, articles, lectures and urban billboard messages.Their goal isn't to just practice their own non-belief but to convince believers to stop believing and join them in the 'fold'.

Reminds me of R. Lee Ermey's mayor character in Mississippi Burning complaining about the civil rights movement in the US southern states, saying before the agitation began that "our nigras were happy". They basically knew their place and kept theor heads down, which of course ignored the fact that the facade of order had nothing to do with happiness and everything to do with their subserviant, helpless status. Not saying the lot of the atheist is equivalent to the lot of the poor southern African American under segregation, but that you seem to be longing for the time when atheists too knew their place and wouldn't dare to challenge the status quo. Given the still dominant role of religion in general and catholicism in particular on Irish society, I don't know what the hell you're so afraid of and insecure about. If your position is so defensible, why do you care that atheists are, not before time, staking a claim in the public arena?

Now you're just being foolish trying to paint pictures and conjure up emotions....
I don't think you fully grasp Atheism and what it really means. Perhaps Eamonn could start and thread and enlighten us all......... and maybe put forward some great examples of real Atheism in action.....

What a worthless post. If my points are so foolish, then please explain why. Should be easy enough.
Same for my apparent lack of understanding of atheism.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 04:40:06 PM
Atheists used to be content with live and let live..... now they have switched their tactics from simply sneering at believers to becoming more militant in their efforts to dissuade anyone who will listen from believing in God.  The new tactic is to shove their opinions down everyone's throat with books, videos, tv programmes, articles, lectures and urban billboard messages.Their goal isn't to just practice their own non-belief but to convince believers to stop believing and join them in the 'fold'.

I really can't believe you posted that as your argument. So basically, these atheists are no better than those missionaries!

But anyway, most of these arguments aren't about getting others to 'not believe', they're challenging the elevated status that religion has in many aspects of life.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 05:44:11 PM
It really has nothing to do with Paranoia. There has been a definite shift from live and let live by Atheists, to going on the offense against believers. The neutral posters on the board only have to look at the threads: Take religion out of State, Take religion out of Education, Take religion out of the GAA, take religion of St. Patrick's day.....

That last box might be already ticked... without any 'pro-active atheism'.

Out of interest, why do you want/need your religion as part of the state, as part of education, as part of the GAA etc.? Is religion not a private thing? Is it not enough to have religion in the Church and in your home?

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 04:40:06 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 19, 2012, 03:54:13 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM
I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

Any other assumptions you'd like to make?

I'm quite familiar with sectarianism thank you very much.  All the more reason for me to be concerned about religion being shoved down other peoples' throats in every part of daily life.  If you're "indifferent" to such practices it's because people have been conditioned into thinking that it's okay for GAA clubs and meetings to have a distinctly catholic identity and they have no concept of how off-putting it looks to non catholics.

Atheists used to be content with live and let live..... now they have switched their tactics from simply sneering at believers to becoming more militant in their efforts to dissuade anyone who will listen from believing in God.  The new tactic is to shove their opinions down everyone's throat with books, videos, tv programmes, articles, lectures and urban billboard messages.Their goal isn't to just practice their own non-belief but to convince believers to stop believing and join them in the 'fold'.

You make it sound like a crusade or an inquisition  ;)

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 05:51:59 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 19, 2012, 05:40:31 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 04:40:06 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 19, 2012, 03:54:13 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 01:10:21 PM
I am actually indifferent to these types of practices but for them to be described as sectarian is an OTT interpretation and is coming from people who probably haven't experienced sectarianism in the same context as some of us in the occupied six.

Any other assumptions you'd like to make?

I'm quite familiar with sectarianism thank you very much.  All the more reason for me to be concerned about religion being shoved down other peoples' throats in every part of daily life.  If you're "indifferent" to such practices it's because people have been conditioned into thinking that it's okay for GAA clubs and meetings to have a distinctly catholic identity and they have no concept of how off-putting it looks to non catholics.

Atheists used to be content with live and let live..... now they have switched their tactics from simply sneering at believers to becoming more militant in their efforts to dissuade anyone who will listen from believing in God.  The new tactic is to shove their opinions down everyone's throat with books, videos, tv programmes, articles, lectures and urban billboard messages.Their goal isn't to just practice their own non-belief but to convince believers to stop believing and join them in the 'fold'.

Reminds me of R. Lee Ermey's mayor character in Mississippi Burning complaining about the civil rights movement in the US southern states, saying before the agitation began that "our nigras were happy". They basically knew their place and kept theor heads down, which of course ignored the fact that the facade of order had nothing to do with happiness and everything to do with their subserviant, helpless status. Not saying the lot of the atheist is equivalent to the lot of the poor southern African American under segregation, but that you seem to be longing for the time when atheists too knew their place and wouldn't dare to challenge the status quo. Given the still dominant role of religion in general and catholicism in particular on Irish society, I don't know what the hell you're so afraid of and insecure about. If your position is so defensible, why do you care that atheists are, not before time, staking a claim in the public arena?

Now you're just being foolish trying to paint pictures and conjure up emotions....
I don't think you fully grasp Atheism and what it really means. Perhaps Eamonn could start and thread and enlighten us all......... and maybe put forward some great examples of real Atheism in action.....

Atheism = There are No Deities or Supernatural => no there is No need for Religion & other Superstition. Its not a conspiracy.

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 05:41:53 PM
I am indifferent because they mean f**k all to me either way. I'm not losing any sleep now and I'll not lose any sleep if they're discontinued - I'm sure the same applies for the vast majority of GAA members.

That's precisely my point. Catholic GAA members would have no problem with practices like this, but they don't realize how out-of-place it looks to a non-catholic GAA person.

QuoteMy whole point is/was that describing a mass at congress as sectarian is over the top.  I am not necessarily saying removing these type of practices would be a bad thing, just that some people are inaccurate in calling them sectarian - certainly in the context in which the GAA (in Ulster anyway) would be familiar with. 

Fair enough.  The word 'sectarian' in Belfast Telegraph/Irish News/BBC-Radio-Ulster-speak has come to mean sectarian bigotry, which is a bit different from the word's strict meaning.

QuoteYou just went and listed a whole load of experiences in your little rant which are in no way similar to the GAA having mass at congress which kind of proved my point, so thanks for that.

My list of experiences was a rebuttal to your unfounded claim that the people complaining about mass at congress are people who haven't experienced sectarianism in the north. You're welcome.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 04:40:06 PM
Atheists used to be content with live and let live..... now they have switched their tactics from simply sneering at believers to becoming more militant in their efforts to dissuade anyone who will listen from believing in God.  The new tactic is to shove their opinions down everyone's throat with books, videos, tv programmes, articles, lectures and urban billboard messages.Their goal isn't to just practice their own non-belief but to convince believers to stop believing and join them in the 'fold'.

Sorry, but when Atheist Ireland gets control of the education system in the same way as the catholic church has, maybe then you can start moaning about "shoving opinions down throats". In the meantime, suck it up.

Quote from: J70 on March 19, 2012, 06:04:56 PM

What a worthless post. If my points are so foolish, then please explain why. Should be easy enough.
Same for my apparent lack of understanding of atheism.

I believe your post was foolish because you purposely compared the plight of the black man to Atheism. That is not a fair comparison.
When the Black man gained equality it did not signal a negative change for humanity....... if we were to go down the Atheist road that would.

I think if you did fully understand what Atheism was then you would grasp that and not draw the comparison you did.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 08:37:26 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 19, 2012, 06:04:56 PM

What a worthless post. If my points are so foolish, then please explain why. Should be easy enough.
Same for my apparent lack of understanding of atheism.

When the Black man gained equality it did not signal a negative change for humanity....... if we were to go down the Atheist road that would.

WTF I don't try and kill Cats.

I see the old "you can't be good without believing in the invisible man in the sky" fallacy hasn't gone away. Coming from someone who kills cats (which I'm sure is illegal under animal cruelty laws) it just takes irony to a new level.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 19, 2012, 08:51:35 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 08:37:26 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 19, 2012, 06:04:56 PM

What a worthless post. If my points are so foolish, then please explain why. Should be easy enough.
Same for my apparent lack of understanding of atheism.

When the Black man gained equality it did not signal a negative change for humanity....... if we were to go down the Atheist road that would.

WTF I don't try and kill Cats.

Yes Iceman, the world of multiple religious beliefs has been so peaceful we wouldn't want it to be destroyed with the violence those damned Athiests would bring.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 08:37:26 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 19, 2012, 06:04:56 PM

What a worthless post. If my points are so foolish, then please explain why. Should be easy enough.
Same for my apparent lack of understanding of atheism.

I believe your post was foolish because you purposely compared the plight of the black man to Atheism. That is not a fair comparison.
When the Black man gained equality it did not signal a negative change for humanity....... if we were to go down the Atheist road that would.

I think if you did fully understand what Atheism was then you would grasp that and not draw the comparison you did.

I suggest you brush up on your reading skills then.

What part of "Not saying the lot of the atheist is equivalent to the lot of the poor southern African American under segregation..." do you not understand?

ONCE AGAIN, my point was that like the character in that movie, who spoke with respect to southern blacks, you were happy when the uppity atheists used to keep their head down and not rock the boat and make the dominant majority i.e. believers,  uncomfortable by asking difficult questions. Are you not whinging about being challenged with respect to matters of faith, something you say did not happen in the past? Are you not forever complaining about discrimination and victimization (oh the irony!!) where it does not exist?

As for how the wider embrace of atheism would signal a turn down a negative path for humanity, you'll have to expand on that. Every hegemonic power in history has forecast doom and disaster if their particular brand of dominance was overturned.  But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that there would be negative consequences of some sort were belief in deities to decline. What does that mean? It certainly doesn't prove there's a god. Just because you don't like the consequences of something doesn't make it untrue.

Re. the allegation that Mass as part of GAA Congress agenda is sectarian
- I'm sure no one will claim that the GAA is being intentionally sectarian in having Mass on the agenda
- it is merely a tradition that perhaps is past it's sell by date
- it should be no big deal to have it removed from the agenda for next congress on the grounds that the GAA might be perceived to have an affiliation with the Catholic Church (not on the grounds that it is sectarian).

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 19, 2012, 07:40:42 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 05:41:53 PM
I am indifferent because they mean f**k all to me either way. I'm not losing any sleep now and I'll not lose any sleep if they're discontinued - I'm sure the same applies for the vast majority of GAA members.

That's precisely my point. Catholic GAA members would have no problem with practices like this, but they don't realize how out-of-place it looks to a non-catholic GAA person.

I don't think it looks that out of place. I've never really seen this to be much of an issue until I read this thread. The usual complaints from non-Catholics in the north tend to be about Kevin Lynch's HC, Dromintee's club grounds and some trophies in Derry I can't remember the name of.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 19, 2012, 07:40:42 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 05:41:53 PMMy whole point is/was that describing a mass at congress as sectarian is over the top.  I am not necessarily saying removing these type of practices would be a bad thing, just that some people are inaccurate in calling them sectarian - certainly in the context in which the GAA (in Ulster anyway) would be familiar with. 

Fair enough.  The word 'sectarian' in Belfast Telegraph/Irish News/BBC-Radio-Ulster-speak has come to mean sectarian bigotry, which is a bit different from the word's strict meaning.

Well if we're going to be pedantic and use the term in it's strict meaning we could be here a long time. You used it the same context as me in your rebuttal so which one are we operating with?

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 19, 2012, 07:40:42 PM

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 19, 2012, 05:41:53 PMYou just went and listed a whole load of experiences in your little rant which are in no way similar to the GAA having mass at congress which kind of proved my point, so thanks for that.

My list of experiences was a rebuttal to your unfounded claim that the people complaining about mass at congress are people who haven't experienced sectarianism in the north. You're welcome.

I used a wee word 'probably'  ;)

Is it true that Tinie Tempah is playing Congress this year? He did play Gaelic football after all!

GAA should use him as a marketing tool to spread the gospel of the game worldwide ( subliminally via r'n'b of course )

Tinie Tempah ft. Christy Cooney - the song practically writes itself!

(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu206/Hardyarse/atheist.jpg)

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 19, 2012, 09:01:04 PM
I see the old "you can't be good without believing in the invisible man in the sky" fallacy hasn't gone away. Coming from someone who kills cats (which I'm sure is illegal under animal cruelty laws) it just takes irony to a new level.

straw man argument..... :P

Facepalm!

Quote from: bailestil on March 16, 2012, 03:37:42 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 16, 2012, 03:05:33 PM
I think if more people attended religious services, whether mass or other Ireland would be a better place.

So sitting in a Chapel, for 1 hour a week will make Ireland a better place?
I've heard it all now.

Not necessarily the chapel, a service. The absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 12:08:12 PM

Quote from: bailestil on March 16, 2012, 03:37:42 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 16, 2012, 03:05:33 PM
I think if more people attended religious services, whether mass or other Ireland would be a better place.

So sitting in a Chapel, for 1 hour a week will make Ireland a better place?
I've heard it all now.

Not necessarily the chapel, a service. The absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

Undoubtedly??? Is that as undoubted as the existence of this God in the first place?
Do you think it's possible for someone who doesn't believe in God to have morals and a conscience?

So the world was a much better place over the last few centuries when everyone did what the man at the pulpit told them?
The magdalene launderies, the orphanages, the child abuse - all those happened in this country when there was almost total belief in God and the Catholic Church held more power than the government in many ways.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/us-elections/video-rick-santorum-under-fire-over-ranting-rightwing-pastor-who-opened-his-rally-3055064.html (http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/us-elections/video-rick-santorum-under-fire-over-ranting-rightwing-pastor-who-opened-his-rally-3055064.html)

Think we should get this lad to give the sermon ;)

Quote from: Tubberman on March 20, 2012, 12:26:29 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 12:08:12 PM

Quote from: bailestil on March 16, 2012, 03:37:42 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 16, 2012, 03:05:33 PM
I think if more people attended religious services, whether mass or other Ireland would be a better place.

So sitting in a Chapel, for 1 hour a week will make Ireland a better place?
I've heard it all now.

Not necessarily the chapel, a service. The absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

Undoubtedly??? Is that as undoubted as the existence of this God in the first place?
Do you think it's possible for someone who doesn't believe in God to have morals and a conscience?

So the world was a much better place over the last few centuries when everyone did what the man at the pulpit told them?
The magdalene launderies, the orphanages, the child abuse - all those happened in this country when there was almost total belief in God and the Catholic Church held more power than the government in many ways.

MAybe start a new thread as this is all diverging from the main one.....

Unfortunately for some claim to know the truth humanity is always seeking out the truth. The search for truth does not care for creed or colour. Any faith or belief is tried and tested humanity. With time and understanding, the grains of truth that make up the foundations of those faiths are tested and it is only on the strength of those foundations will these faiths persist.

Suggested reading:
John Stewart Mill; On Liberty

Quote from: Tubberman on March 20, 2012, 12:26:29 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 12:08:12 PM

Quote from: bailestil on March 16, 2012, 03:37:42 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 16, 2012, 03:05:33 PM
I think if more people attended religious services, whether mass or other Ireland would be a better place.

So sitting in a Chapel, for 1 hour a week will make Ireland a better place?
I've heard it all now.

Not necessarily the chapel, a service. The absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

Undoubtedly??? Is that as undoubted as the existence of this God in the first place?
Do you think it's possible for someone who doesn't believe in God to have morals and a conscience?

So the world was a much better place over the last few centuries when everyone did what the man at the pulpit told them?
The magdalene launderies, the orphanages, the child abuse - all those happened in this country when there was almost total belief in God and the Catholic Church held more power than the government in many ways.

My belief at odds with yours...but my belief no the less.

I wouldn't say that it is impossible to be good without believing in God, and conversely a lot of bad has been done in the name of
God(s). However it is a tradition in the GAA and should be continued and made ecumenical, but also allowing individuals to choose how they spend that hour if they are not religious.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 12:08:12 PM

Quote from: bailestil on March 16, 2012, 03:37:42 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 16, 2012, 03:05:33 PM
I think if more people attended religious services, whether mass or other Ireland would be a better place.

So sitting in a Chapel, for 1 hour a week will make Ireland a better place?
I've heard it all now.

Not necessarily the chapel, a service. The absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/top-developers-donated-huge-sums-to-vatican-2072679.html (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/top-developers-donated-huge-sums-to-vatican-2072679.html)

Sean Fitzpatrick, Michael Fingleton, Johnny Ronan, Derek Quinlan, Sean Mulryan and Paddy McKillen. All big believers. Great men.

QuoteSean Fitzpatrick, Michael Fingleton, Johnny Ronan, Derek Quinlan, Sean Mulryan and Paddy McKillen. All big believers. Great men.

Yep the ultimate Irish catholic get out clause - buy the indulgences!!

I'm sure the boys would be willing to give it all up and follow JC

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 03:18:02 PM
I wouldn't say that it is impossible to be good without believing in God, and conversely a lot of bad has been done in the name of
God(s). However it is a tradition in the GAA and should be continued and made ecumenical, but also allowing individuals to choose how they spend that hour if they are not religious.

You wouldn't say its impossible?? That's generous of you. I'll rest easier knowing you'll allow at least a slight chance that someone like me could be a decent, moral person!

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 12:08:12 PM
The absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

Undoubtedly? No doubt whatsoever? On what basis can you make such a confident/bold claim?

True Atheism can't really explain moral or ethics or right or wrong. It doesn't exist in the naturalist or material world.
But I think that's a whole other thread......

Quote from: Tubberman on March 20, 2012, 12:26:29 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 12:08:12 PM

Quote from: bailestil on March 16, 2012, 03:37:42 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 16, 2012, 03:05:33 PM
I think if more people attended religious services, whether mass or other Ireland would be a better place.

So sitting in a Chapel, for 1 hour a week will make Ireland a better place?
I've heard it all now.

Not necessarily the chapel, a service. The absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

Undoubtedly??? Is that as undoubted as the existence of this God in the first place?
Do you think it's possible for someone who doesn't believe in God to have morals and a conscience?

So the world was a much better place over the last few centuries when everyone did what the man at the pulpit told them?
The magdalene launderies, the orphanages, the child abuse - all those happened in this country when there was almost total belief in God and the Catholic Church held more power than the government in many ways.

Not to mention all the wars and killings in the name of god.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 20, 2012, 08:09:08 PM
True Atheism can't really explain moral or ethics or right or wrong.

Fish can't play football.

Atheism simply states that there is no reason to believe that any deity can explain morals or ethics or right or wrong either. (And occasionally takes the trouble to point out that no two of them can seem to agree on any of these subjects either.)

Quote

It doesn't exist in the naturalist or material world.

Nor do Christianity, Islam, Buddhism ...

Atheists, however do not rely on random unsupported statements to explain the natural or material world.

Quote from: The Iceman on March 20, 2012, 08:09:08 PM
True Atheism can't really explain moral or ethics or right or wrong. It doesn't exist in the naturalist or material world.
But I think that's a whole other thread......

Thankfully we have the church to teach us right from wrong, for example - gay is wrong....

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/dutch-roman-catholic-church-castrated-at-least-10-boys-3054852.html

Quote from: J70 on March 20, 2012, 05:18:22 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 03:18:02 PM
I wouldn't say that it is impossible to be good without believing in God, and conversely a lot of bad has been done in the name of
God(s). However it is a tradition in the GAA and should be continued and made ecumenical, but also allowing individuals to choose how they spend that hour if they are not religious.

You wouldn't say its impossible?? That's generous of you. I'll rest easier knowing you'll allow at least a slight chance that someone like me could be a decent, moral person!

You are misrepresenting my point, which is that people who don't go to church or believe in God are no less or more likely to be bad than those who do.

The title of 'frequent mass-goer' gave a respectable veneer to plenty of bad articles down through the years.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:19:47 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 20, 2012, 05:18:22 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 03:18:02 PM
I wouldn't say that it is impossible to be good without believing in God, and conversely a lot of bad has been done in the name of
God(s). However it is a tradition in the GAA and should be continued and made ecumenical, but also allowing individuals to choose how they spend that hour if they are not religious.

You wouldn't say its impossible?? That's generous of you. I'll rest easier knowing you'll allow at least a slight chance that someone like me could be a decent, moral person!

You are misrepresenting my point, which is that people who don't go to church or believe in God are no less or more likely to be bad than those who do.

How could anyone possibly take the meaning above from your post below:

QuoteThe absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

Quote from: Tubberman on March 21, 2012, 01:20:08 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:19:47 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 20, 2012, 05:18:22 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 03:18:02 PM
I wouldn't say that it is impossible to be good without believing in God, and conversely a lot of bad has been done in the name of
God(s). However it is a tradition in the GAA and should be continued and made ecumenical, but also allowing individuals to choose how they spend that hour if they are not religious.

You wouldn't say its impossible?? That's generous of you. I'll rest easier knowing you'll allow at least a slight chance that someone like me could be a decent, moral person!

You are misrepresenting my point, which is that people who don't go to church or believe in God are no less or more likely to be bad than those who do.

How could anyone possibly take the meaning above from your post below:

QuoteThe absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

One was in response to a previous poster and the second stands on its own and in my opinion is true and not mutually exclusive of the fact that people who don't believe in God are no more likely to be bad. The actual point I intended to make was if people with a belief in God (and even those who don't) followed his teaching to the letter then the world would be a better place.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:19:47 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 20, 2012, 05:18:22 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 03:18:02 PM
I wouldn't say that it is impossible to be good without believing in God, and conversely a lot of bad has been done in the name of
God(s). However it is a tradition in the GAA and should be continued and made ecumenical, but also allowing individuals to choose how they spend that hour if they are not religious.

You wouldn't say its impossible?? That's generous of you. I'll rest easier knowing you'll allow at least a slight chance that someone like me could be a decent, moral person!

You are misrepresenting my point, which is that people who don't go to church or believe in God are no less or more likely to be bad than those who do.

Misinterpreted, not misrepresented.

Thank you for clarifying. That makes much more sense!

QuoteThe actual point I intended to make was if people with a belief in God (and even those who don't) followed his teaching to the letter then the world would be a better place.

Reminds me of a saying an old Christian brother who taught us Civics, as it was in the dark ages, had - "The problem with Christianity is that it's never really been tried properly" - his adjunct to that was its a bit like Communism in that regard

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 02:05:22 PM

Quote from: Tubberman on March 21, 2012, 01:20:08 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:19:47 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 20, 2012, 05:18:22 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 03:18:02 PM
I wouldn't say that it is impossible to be good without believing in God, and conversely a lot of bad has been done in the name of
God(s). However it is a tradition in the GAA and should be continued and made ecumenical, but also allowing individuals to choose how they spend that hour if they are not religious.

You wouldn't say its impossible?? That's generous of you. I'll rest easier knowing you'll allow at least a slight chance that someone like me could be a decent, moral person!

You are misrepresenting my point, which is that people who don't go to church or believe in God are no less or more likely to be bad than those who do.

How could anyone possibly take the meaning above from your post below:

QuoteThe absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

One was in response to a previous poster and the second stands on its own and in my opinion is true and not mutually exclusive of the fact that people who don't believe in God are no more likely to be bad. The actual point I intended to make was if people with a belief in God (and even those who don't) followed his teaching to the letter then the world would be a better place.

But what is his teaching to the letter? (i.e. those that haven't been doctored through the ages by various popes to suit their particular needs)

Are gays an abomination?

Is sex before marriage a sin?

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 02:05:22 PM
if people with a belief in God (and even those who don't) followed his teaching to the letter then the world would be a better place.

Jesus wept!

Have you ever read Leviticus?

QuoteHave you ever read Leviticus?

When he refers to "his teaching" I'm guessing he's talking about JC the New Testament version??

You can't blame people for being confused. Whatever about differences in belief systems between different gods, what are we to make of this kind of stuff from two different versions of the same god?

And stay ye not, but pursue after your enemies, and smite the hindmost of them; suffer them not to enter into their cities: for the LORD your God hath delivered them into your hand.
- Joshua 10:19

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
- Matthew 5:44

What is a sane person supposed to make of that and how can he implement one without contravening the other? Sounds like a trick to me.

Quote from: johnneycool on March 21, 2012, 02:37:48 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 02:05:22 PM

Quote from: Tubberman on March 21, 2012, 01:20:08 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:19:47 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 20, 2012, 05:18:22 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 03:18:02 PM
I wouldn't say that it is impossible to be good without believing in God, and conversely a lot of bad has been done in the name of
God(s). However it is a tradition in the GAA and should be continued and made ecumenical, but also allowing individuals to choose how they spend that hour if they are not religious.

You wouldn't say its impossible?? That's generous of you. I'll rest easier knowing you'll allow at least a slight chance that someone like me could be a decent, moral person!

You are misrepresenting my point, which is that people who don't go to church or believe in God are no less or more likely to be bad than those who do.

How could anyone possibly take the meaning above from your post below:

QuoteThe absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

One was in response to a previous poster and the second stands on its own and in my opinion is true and not mutually exclusive of the fact that people who don't believe in God are no more likely to be bad. The actual point I intended to make was if people with a belief in God (and even those who don't) followed his teaching to the letter then the world would be a better place.

But what is his teaching to the letter? (i.e. those that haven't been doctored through the ages by various popes to suit their particular needs)

Are gays an abomination?

Is sex before marriage a sin?

I think "Love thy neighbour", "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "take the beam out of thy own eye before taking the mote out of thy brothers eye" just about answer those questions. Personally I think if God hadn't wanted Gay people in this world we just wouldn't have created them. What constitutes marriage? Where did Jesusor God actually say it had to be a religious service?

Oh and apologies if the qoutes aren't exact.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:18:10 PM
I think "Love thy neighbour", "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "take the beam out of thy own eye before taking the mote out of thy brothers eye" just about answer those questions. Personally I think if God hadn't wanted Gay people in this world we just wouldn't have created them. What constitutes marriage? Where did Jesusor God actually say it had to be a religious service?

Oh and apologies if the qoutes aren't exact.

It is very difficult to figure out exactly where they are going with these and often they completely contradict each other.

For example:

"Love thy neighbour" and "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" are clearly incompatible.

Quote from: muppet on March 21, 2012, 06:15:05 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:18:10 PM
I think "Love thy neighbour", "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "take the beam out of thy own eye before taking the mote out of thy brothers eye" just about answer those questions. Personally I think if God hadn't wanted Gay people in this world we just wouldn't have created them. What constitutes marriage? Where did Jesusor God actually say it had to be a religious service?

Oh and apologies if the qoutes aren't exact.

It is very difficult to figure out exactly where they are going with these and often they completely contradict each other.

For example:

"Love thy neighbour" and "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" are clearly incompatible.

In fairness, I don't think the former refers to romantic love, while the latter certainly refers to lust and romantic love!

At least that's what my interpretation has always been.

But don't worry, there's plenty of other batshit crazy pronouncements and contradictions in the bible!

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:19:47 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 20, 2012, 05:18:22 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 03:18:02 PM
I wouldn't say that it is impossible to be good without believing in God, and conversely a lot of bad has been done in the name of
God(s). However it is a tradition in the GAA and should be continued and made ecumenical, but also allowing individuals to choose how they spend that hour if they are not religious.

You wouldn't say its impossible?? That's generous of you. I'll rest easier knowing you'll allow at least a slight chance that someone like me could be a decent, moral person!

You are misrepresenting my point, which is that people who don't go to church or believe in God are no less or more likely to be bad than those who do.

That's some serious backtracking you're doing.

Quote from: Jinxy on March 21, 2012, 12:22:51 PM
The title of 'frequent mass-goer' gave a respectable veneer to plenty of bad articles down through the years.

Ha! On both sides of the altar.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:18:10 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on March 21, 2012, 02:37:48 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 02:05:22 PM

Quote from: Tubberman on March 21, 2012, 01:20:08 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:19:47 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 20, 2012, 05:18:22 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 03:18:02 PM
I wouldn't say that it is impossible to be good without believing in God, and conversely a lot of bad has been done in the name of
God(s). However it is a tradition in the GAA and should be continued and made ecumenical, but also allowing individuals to choose how they spend that hour if they are not religious.

You wouldn't say its impossible?? That's generous of you. I'll rest easier knowing you'll allow at least a slight chance that someone like me could be a decent, moral person!

You are misrepresenting my point, which is that people who don't go to church or believe in God are no less or more likely to be bad than those who do.

How could anyone possibly take the meaning above from your post below:

QuoteThe absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

One was in response to a previous poster and the second stands on its own and in my opinion is true and not mutually exclusive of the fact that people who don't believe in God are no more likely to be bad. The actual point I intended to make was if people with a belief in God (and even those who don't) followed his teaching to the letter then the world would be a better place.

But what is his teaching to the letter? (i.e. those that haven't been doctored through the ages by various popes to suit their particular needs)

Are gays an abomination?

Is sex before marriage a sin?

I think "Love thy neighbour", "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "take the beam out of thy own eye before taking the mote out of thy brothers eye" just about answer those questions. Personally I think if God hadn't wanted Gay people in this world we just wouldn't have created them. What constitutes marriage? Where did Jesusor God actually say it had to be a religious service?

Oh and apologies if the qoutes aren't exact.

Never worry about accuracy as the bible doesn't either.

So being gay is alright according to the bible as you say, if god hadn't wanted gay people he wouldn't have created them?

IMHO, that would be my personal opinion as well, but I always thought that was contrary to the teachings of the holy roman catholic church, it was with my last RE teacher who in all fairness was on a beaten docket with me.

The coveting the neighbours wife was another problem I had with the same gentleman, as he said it was ok to be tempted to steal something as long as you didn't carry out the act. I argued that coveting the neighbours wife was similar as long as you didn't follow it up with any activities. He was adamant that it was a sin straight off the bat, just for thinking illicit thoughts. I begged to differ, but I was only 16 at the time and he was the educated one!

Quote from: johnneycool on March 22, 2012, 11:15:57 AM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:18:10 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on March 21, 2012, 02:37:48 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 02:05:22 PM

Quote from: Tubberman on March 21, 2012, 01:20:08 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:19:47 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 20, 2012, 05:18:22 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 03:18:02 PM
I wouldn't say that it is impossible to be good without believing in God, and conversely a lot of bad has been done in the name of
God(s). However it is a tradition in the GAA and should be continued and made ecumenical, but also allowing individuals to choose how they spend that hour if they are not religious.

You wouldn't say its impossible?? That's generous of you. I'll rest easier knowing you'll allow at least a slight chance that someone like me could be a decent, moral person!

You are misrepresenting my point, which is that people who don't go to church or believe in God are no less or more likely to be bad than those who do.

How could anyone possibly take the meaning above from your post below:

QuoteThe absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

One was in response to a previous poster and the second stands on its own and in my opinion is true and not mutually exclusive of the fact that people who don't believe in God are no more likely to be bad. The actual point I intended to make was if people with a belief in God (and even those who don't) followed his teaching to the letter then the world would be a better place.

But what is his teaching to the letter? (i.e. those that haven't been doctored through the ages by various popes to suit their particular needs)

Are gays an abomination?

Is sex before marriage a sin?

I think "Love thy neighbour", "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "take the beam out of thy own eye before taking the mote out of thy brothers eye" just about answer those questions. Personally I think if God hadn't wanted Gay people in this world we just wouldn't have created them. What constitutes marriage? Where did Jesusor God actually say it had to be a religious service?

Oh and apologies if the qoutes aren't exact.

Never worry about accuracy as the bible doesn't either.

So being gay is alright according to the bible as you say, if god hadn't wanted gay people he wouldn't have created them?

IMHO, that would be my personal opinion as well, but I always thought that was contrary to the teachings of the holy roman catholic church, it was with my last RE teacher who in all fairness was on a beaten docket with me.

The coveting the neighbours wife was another problem I had with the same gentleman, as he said it was ok to be tempted to steal something as long as you didn't carry out the act. I argued that coveting the neighbours wife was similar as long as you didn't follow it up with any activities. He was adamant that it was a sin straight off the bat, just for thinking illicit thoughts. I begged to differ, but I was only 16 at the time and he was the educated one!

What was your neighbours wife like?

Quote from: muppet on March 21, 2012, 06:15:05 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:18:10 PM
I think "Love thy neighbour", "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "take the beam out of thy own eye before taking the mote out of thy brothers eye" just about answer those questions. Personally I think if God hadn't wanted Gay people in this world we just wouldn't have created them. What constitutes marriage? Where did Jesusor God actually say it had to be a religious service?

Oh and apologies if the qoutes aren't exact.

It is very difficult to figure out exactly where they are going with these and often they completely contradict each other.

For example:

"Love thy neighbour" and "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" are clearly incompatible.

It doesn't say love thy neighbour's wife though!

Like her, don't love her.

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 22, 2012, 12:07:54 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on March 22, 2012, 11:15:57 AM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:18:10 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on March 21, 2012, 02:37:48 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 02:05:22 PM

Quote from: Tubberman on March 21, 2012, 01:20:08 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:19:47 PM

Quote from: J70 on March 20, 2012, 05:18:22 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 20, 2012, 03:18:02 PM
I wouldn't say that it is impossible to be good without believing in God, and conversely a lot of bad has been done in the name of
God(s). However it is a tradition in the GAA and should be continued and made ecumenical, but also allowing individuals to choose how they spend that hour if they are not religious.

You wouldn't say its impossible?? That's generous of you. I'll rest easier knowing you'll allow at least a slight chance that someone like me could be a decent, moral person!

You are misrepresenting my point, which is that people who don't go to church or believe in God are no less or more likely to be bad than those who do.

How could anyone possibly take the meaning above from your post below:

QuoteThe absense of any belief in God or a higher power is udoubtedly at the core of much that is wrong with the world today.

One was in response to a previous poster and the second stands on its own and in my opinion is true and not mutually exclusive of the fact that people who don't believe in God are no more likely to be bad. The actual point I intended to make was if people with a belief in God (and even those who don't) followed his teaching to the letter then the world would be a better place.

But what is his teaching to the letter? (i.e. those that haven't been doctored through the ages by various popes to suit their particular needs)

Are gays an abomination?

Is sex before marriage a sin?

I think "Love thy neighbour", "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "take the beam out of thy own eye before taking the mote out of thy brothers eye" just about answer those questions. Personally I think if God hadn't wanted Gay people in this world we just wouldn't have created them. What constitutes marriage? Where did Jesusor God actually say it had to be a religious service?

Oh and apologies if the qoutes aren't exact.

Never worry about accuracy as the bible doesn't either.

So being gay is alright according to the bible as you say, if god hadn't wanted gay people he wouldn't have created them?

IMHO, that would be my personal opinion as well, but I always thought that was contrary to the teachings of the holy roman catholic church, it was with my last RE teacher who in all fairness was on a beaten docket with me.

The coveting the neighbours wife was another problem I had with the same gentleman, as he said it was ok to be tempted to steal something as long as you didn't carry out the act. I argued that coveting the neighbours wife was similar as long as you didn't follow it up with any activities. He was adamant that it was a sin straight off the bat, just for thinking illicit thoughts. I begged to differ, but I was only 16 at the time and he was the educated one!

What was your neighbours wife like?

Not pretty, but as I was 16 at the time I'd probably have jumped anything given the slightest signs of interest.

Bless me father for I have sinned.............

I'll take the 10 Hail Mary's and 5 Our Fathers now, slate cleaned, and then its good to go again!