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I was just wondering how far us Irish Nationalists would go to have our United Ireland? I was also wondering how many options would be acceptable to our Unionist countrymen?

Please vote for any option that you would accept, including those even only acceptable as a last resort.

Why on earth would anybody want a monarchy?

Quote from: Arthur_Friend on April 15, 2011, 04:32:30 PM
Why on earth would anybody want a monarchy?

I don't, but I left the option for those who want a United Ireland at any cost and for Unionists who may be more about the Crown/a Crown than the actual British identity.

Question 15. Who should pay for your united ireland ? 

Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties?

I think the fact that most protestants in the wee 6 are happy being British is also a factor.

Northern Ireland would have to shape up economically before its British parents could consider offering its hand
in marriage to the south.   

Quote from: seafoid on April 15, 2011, 04:38:04 PM
Question 15. Who should pay for your united ireland ?

The Germans of course, maybe I should have put United Ireland as part of the German Republic.

I was also thinking a
- United Ireland under American rule (Puerto Rico status).
- United Ireland under Chineese rule (Hong Kong stauts).
- United Ireland under Australian rule (we can all fck off there without visas and they can visit Europe without visas).
- United Ireland under the rule of Allah (Protectorate of Saudi Arabia).
- United Ireland under King William and Queen Kate after they escape under the cover of darkness to the Emerald Isle as the Great Terror takes reign in Britain and Madamme Guillotine is introduced to cleanse the New British Republic.
- United Ireland within a Celtic Federation.
- United Ireland under Supreme Leader Bertie Ahern after his Coup.
- United Ireland under the born again Napoleonic French Republic (1798 claim)
- United Ireland conquered by the newly independent Scots, invoking Dal Riada, the Conventors, the Bruce & Aiden McGeady.

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

the apathy is due to people having enough money and are happy in their own little bubble - its called 'me feinism'

This Irishman is entirely* happy with the status quo.

He is also very confident that the status quo will prevail at least long enough to see him out.


* - Well except maybe for Da Republik poaching some of our footballers  >:(

Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

Are you Bertie Ahern? That is a Myth.

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

What if - the answer to that is never? Where does that leave 6 county republicans and nationalists? What would happen next?

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

Well said Minder well said.

Quote from: Puckoon on April 15, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

What if - the answer to that is never? Where does that leave 6 county republicans and nationalists? What would happen next?

Ive always cared.

This Irishman is not entirely* happy with the status quo.

He is also very confident that the status quo will prevail at least long enough to see him out.


* - It's those f**kers in the UK poaching some of our cricketers

Quote from: AQMP on April 15, 2011, 05:31:25 PM
This Irishman is not entirely* happy with the status quo.

He is also very confident that the status quo will prevail at least long enough to see him out.


* - It's those f**kers in the UK poaching some of our cricketers

& Soldiers  :D

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

Agreed. As long as people aren't being killed, it's not going to be a top priority for a lot of people.

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

Quote from: seafoid on April 15, 2011, 05:12:52 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties?

I think the fact that most protestants in the wee 6 are happy being British is also a factor.

Indeed.

Quote from: seafoid on April 15, 2011, 05:12:52 PM
Northern Ireland would have to shape up economically before its British parents could consider offering its hand
in marriage to the south.

Our British parents fellow Nations of the United Kingdom have no more right or authority to "hand" us to anyone, than we have to hand them over to anyone, for that is not how Unions work.

Which is actually a pretty good thing for the ROI, otherwise, the EU would be just as likely to want to "hand" the ROI over eg to the Yanks.

And in any case, should NI "shape up economically", why would either party (GB or NI) want to sever the link?

If the Union has held together during eg the Great Depression, World War II, 30 years of Republican Terrorism and Alan f**king Green on the wireless, I fail to see how even a downturn  in the NI economy, never mind an upturn, would change that.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 15, 2011, 05:16:53 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

the apathy is due to people having enough money and are happy in their own little bubble - its called 'me feinism'

That's a very narrow view to take - that just because some/many people don't aspire or actively fight for a particular political situation that they're only concerned about themselves.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on April 15, 2011, 05:32:22 PM

Quote from: AQMP on April 15, 2011, 05:31:25 PM
This Irishman is not entirely* happy with the status quo.

He is also very confident that the status quo will prevail at least long enough to see him out.


* - It's those f**kers in the UK poaching some of our cricketers

& Soldiers  :D

& land  >:(

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 05:35:34 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 15, 2011, 05:12:52 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties?

I think the fact that most protestants in the wee 6 are happy being British is also a factor.

Indeed.

Quote from: seafoid on April 15, 2011, 05:12:52 PM
Northern Ireland would have to shape up economically before its British parents could consider offering its hand
in marriage to the south.

Our British parents fellow Nations of the United Kingdom have no more right or authority to "hand" us to anyone, than we have to hand them over to anyone, for that is not how Unions work.

Which is actually a pretty good thing for the ROI, otherwise, the EU would be just as likely to want to "hand" the ROI over eg to the Yanks.

And in any case, should NI "shape up economically", why would either party (GB or NI) want to sever the link?

If the Union has held together during eg the Great Depression, World War II, 30 years of Republican Terrorism and Alan f**king Green on the wireless, I fail to see how even a downturn  in the NI economy, never mind an upturn, would change that.

Never heard of the place.

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on April 15, 2011, 05:30:58 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on April 15, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

What if - the answer to that is never? Where does that leave 6 county republicans and nationalists? What would happen next?

Ive always cared.

Well that neither surprises me - nor explains why in both good and financial times - many 26 county irish folk (in Mally Stand's own words), don't seem to care - in good times or in bad (which suggests a general non financially related apathy).

Yet we have other posters convinced it's going to happen. Seems like apathy is rife with the issue.

Quote from: Puckoon on April 15, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

What if - the answer to that is never? Where does that leave 6 county republicans and nationalists? What would happen next?

Exactly where they've been for the last 90 years, only now with their political representatives committed to helping administer British Rule in (the British part of) Ireland.

Life's a Bitch, eh?

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 05:35:34 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 15, 2011, 05:12:52 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties?

I think the fact that most protestants in the wee 6 are happy being British is also a factor.

Indeed.

Quote from: seafoid on April 15, 2011, 05:12:52 PM
Northern Ireland would have to shape up economically before its British parents could consider offering its hand
in marriage to the south.

Our British parents fellow Nations of the United Kingdom have no more right or authority to "hand" us to anyone, than we have to hand them over to anyone, for that is not how Unions work.

Which is actually a pretty good thing for the ROI, otherwise, the EU would be just as likely to want to "hand" the ROI over eg to the Yanks.

And in any case, should NI "shape up economically", why would either party (GB or NI) want to sever the link?

If the Union has held together during eg the Great Depression, World War II, 30 years of Republican Terrorism and Alan f**king Green on the wireless, I fail to see how even a downturn  in the NI economy, never mind an upturn, would change that.

I know EG but the South have had George "Danger Here" Hamilton to suffer.

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on April 15, 2011, 05:30:58 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on April 15, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

What if - the answer to that is never? Where does that leave 6 county republicans and nationalists? What would happen next?

Ive always cared.

Good for you.

Mind, it's a shame you don't count:
The two Governments:
(i) recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain or a sovereign united Ireland;
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 05:49:00 PM

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on April 15, 2011, 05:30:58 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on April 15, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

What if - the answer to that is never? Where does that leave 6 county republicans and nationalists? What would happen next?

Ive always cared.

Good for you.

Mind, it's a shame you don't count:
The two Governments:
(i) recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain or a sovereign united Ireland;
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf

I thought in a democracy everyone's vote counted or is it only if you vote for the winner?

Quote from: Puckoon on April 15, 2011, 05:39:50 PM

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on April 15, 2011, 05:30:58 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on April 15, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

What if - the answer to that is never? Where does that leave 6 county republicans and nationalists? What would happen next?

Ive always cared.

Well that neither surprises me - nor explains why in both good and financial times - many 26 county irish folk (in Mally Stand's own words), don't seem to care - in good times or in bad (which suggests a general non financially related apathy).

Yet we have other posters convinced it's going to happen. Seems like apathy is rife with the issue.

Then they should have the balls to say never and not hide behing excuses. It would leave nationlists very frustrated I would imagine but no different to the current situation. Nally stand's points a valid one. 

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

Why should they need an excuse?

I don't care for Bananas. Or Jazz. Or Motor Sport.

So if people in ROI are increasingly unconcerned about a United Ireland, so what?

Anyhow, whilst we can argue the toss over the importance of economics in determining peoples' views, I suspect that two another factors may be influencing opinions South of the border:
1. The population being a young one, memories of the Troubles are beginning to fade from their consciousness, never mind the Eater Rising, Black & Tans and the War of Independence etc;
2. Now that RC's/Nationalists in NI are seen to be getting a fair crack of the whip over Civil Rights and Jobs etc, the "need" for Southerners to care is that much less.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on April 15, 2011, 05:38:09 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 05:35:34 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 15, 2011, 05:12:52 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties?

I think the fact that most protestants in the wee 6 are happy being British is also a factor.

Indeed.

Quote from: seafoid on April 15, 2011, 05:12:52 PM
Northern Ireland would have to shape up economically before its British parents could consider offering its hand
in marriage to the south.

Our British parents fellow Nations of the United Kingdom have no more right or authority to "hand" us to anyone, than we have to hand them over to anyone, for that is not how Unions work.

Which is actually a pretty good thing for the ROI, otherwise, the EU would be just as likely to want to "hand" the ROI over eg to the Yanks.

And in any case, should NI "shape up economically", why would either party (GB or NI) want to sever the link?

If the Union has held together during eg the Great Depression, World War II, 30 years of Republican Terrorism and Alan f**king Green on the wireless, I fail to see how even a downturn  in the NI economy, never mind an upturn, would change that.

Never heard of the place.

Aye, sure I had to ask what "Mayo" was.

Apparently it's a kind of posh Salad Cream...

Quote from: AQMP on April 15, 2011, 05:42:12 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 05:35:34 PM

Quote from: seafoid on April 15, 2011, 05:12:52 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties?

I think the fact that most protestants in the wee 6 are happy being British is also a factor.

Indeed.

Quote from: seafoid on April 15, 2011, 05:12:52 PM
Northern Ireland would have to shape up economically before its British parents could consider offering its hand
in marriage to the south.

Our British parents fellow Nations of the United Kingdom have no more right or authority to "hand" us to anyone, than we have to hand them over to anyone, for that is not how Unions work.

Which is actually a pretty good thing for the ROI, otherwise, the EU would be just as likely to want to "hand" the ROI over eg to the Yanks.

And in any case, should NI "shape up economically", why would either party (GB or NI) want to sever the link?

If the Union has held together during eg the Great Depression, World War II, 30 years of Republican Terrorism and Alan f**king Green on the wireless, I fail to see how even a downturn  in the NI economy, never mind an upturn, would change that.

I know EG but the South have had George "Danger Here" Hamilton to suffer.

I'd swap Wee George for Bucketmouth Green in a shot.

If nothing else, he'd be easier to feed.

Plus I don't think he's a feckin Linfield fan, like the fat fcuker  :o

Quote from: AQMP on April 15, 2011, 05:56:07 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 05:49:00 PM

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on April 15, 2011, 05:30:58 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on April 15, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

What if - the answer to that is never? Where does that leave 6 county republicans and nationalists? What would happen next?

Ive always cared.

Good for you.

Mind, it's a shame you don't count:
The two Governments:
(i) recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain or a sovereign united Ireland;
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf

I thought in a democracy everyone's vote counted or is it only if you vote for the winner?

Yes, every vote cast  does count.

I am assuming that "Sligonian" is not entitled to vote in any referendum which must necessarily be held in NI (before a UI can even be considered).

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 06:06:56 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

Why should they need an excuse?

I don't care for Bananas. Or Jazz. Or Motor Sport.

So if people in ROI are increasingly unconcerned about a United Ireland, so what?

Anyhow, whilst we can argue the toss over the importance of economics in determining peoples' views, I suspect that two another factors may be influencing opinions South of the border:
1. The population being a young one, memories of the Troubles are beginning to fade from their consciousness, never mind the Eater Rising, Black & Tans and the War of Independence etc;
2. Now that RC's/Nationalists in NI are seen to be getting a fair crack of the whip over Civil Rights and Jobs etc, the "need" for Southerners to care is that much less.

Nallys point and it's one that I would agree with is that many Southerns would say they would be for a United Ireland but reality might be a different thing. And if that is the case why not just say your not in favour of it.

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 06:06:56 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

Why should they need an excuse?

I don't care for Bananas. Or Jazz. Or Motor Sport.

So if people in ROI are increasingly unconcerned about a United Ireland, so what?

Anyhow, whilst we can argue the toss over the importance of economics in determining peoples' views, I suspect that two another factors may be influencing opinions South of the border:
1. The population being a young one, memories of the Troubles are beginning to fade from their consciousness, never mind the Eater Rising, Black & Tans and the War of Independence etc;
2. Now that RC's/Nationalists in NI are seen to be getting a fair crack of the whip over Civil Rights and Jobs etc, the "need" for Southerners to care is that much less.

"So what?" It might be a case of "so what" for you. Does that mean it has to be for everyone? Yes, we all know you are a unionist, but surely that doesn't exclude you from accepting that for a place where so many fought and died for All Ireland Independence for centuries, and in a place where most remember such people as patriots, that the people of the 26 counties might still be vocally supportive of the idea of All-Ireland Independence/Unity rather than use dishonest excuses to disguise a complete apathy for it, because luckily their county is not one of the six most north easterly ones.

How about a dual monarchy under a Stuart between Scotland and Ireland.
He could even make speeches in North Channel Scots.

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 06:36:50 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 06:06:56 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

Why should they need an excuse?

I don't care for Bananas. Or Jazz. Or Motor Sport.

So if people in ROI are increasingly unconcerned about a United Ireland, so what?

Anyhow, whilst we can argue the toss over the importance of economics in determining peoples' views, I suspect that two another factors may be influencing opinions South of the border:
1. The population being a young one, memories of the Troubles are beginning to fade from their consciousness, never mind the Eater Rising, Black & Tans and the War of Independence etc;
2. Now that RC's/Nationalists in NI are seen to be getting a fair crack of the whip over Civil Rights and Jobs etc, the "need" for Southerners to care is that much less.

"So what?" It might be a case of "so what" for you. Does that mean it has to be for everyone? Yes, we all know you are a unionist, but surely that doesn't exclude you from accepting that for a place where so many fought and died for All Ireland Independence for centuries, and in a place where most remember such people as patriots, that the people of the 26 counties might still be vocally supportive of the idea of All-Ireland Independence/Unity rather than use dishonest excuses to disguise a complete apathy for it, because luckily their county is not one of the six most north easterly ones.

You go on as if the disinclination to bang a drum for a united Ireland is some sort of crime. Who, precisely, is trying to disguise their apathy? I think the widespread apathy is pretty well undisguised. I don't think either that there's any substance in the suggestion that the apathy disguises a widespread antipathy "down here" to the idea of a United Ireland.

I think the overwhelming attitude is that political unity would be a nice idea, but not worth another drop of Irish blood (or any other blood, either), as long as people are living in a free democratic society, particularly now that the political union that makes a real difference to peoples' lives is the European one of which we're all members.

Quote from: AQMP on April 15, 2011, 05:56:07 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 05:49:00 PM

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on April 15, 2011, 05:30:58 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on April 15, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

What if - the answer to that is never? Where does that leave 6 county republicans and nationalists? What would happen next?

Ive always cared.

Good for you.

Mind, it's a shame you don't count:
The two Governments:
(i) recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain or a sovereign united Ireland;
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf

I thought in a democracy everyone's vote counted or is it only if you vote for the winner?

To be fair, the GFA set out who could vote for what; so if you voted for that, then you've already had a say in the matter.

Quote from: Hardy on April 15, 2011, 06:48:20 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 06:36:50 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 06:06:56 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

Why should they need an excuse?

I don't care for Bananas. Or Jazz. Or Motor Sport.

So if people in ROI are increasingly unconcerned about a United Ireland, so what?

Anyhow, whilst we can argue the toss over the importance of economics in determining peoples' views, I suspect that two another factors may be influencing opinions South of the border:
1. The population being a young one, memories of the Troubles are beginning to fade from their consciousness, never mind the Eater Rising, Black & Tans and the War of Independence etc;
2. Now that RC's/Nationalists in NI are seen to be getting a fair crack of the whip over Civil Rights and Jobs etc, the "need" for Southerners to care is that much less.

"So what?" It might be a case of "so what" for you. Does that mean it has to be for everyone? Yes, we all know you are a unionist, but surely that doesn't exclude you from accepting that for a place where so many fought and died for All Ireland Independence for centuries, and in a place where most remember such people as patriots, that the people of the 26 counties might still be vocally supportive of the idea of All-Ireland Independence/Unity rather than use dishonest excuses to disguise a complete apathy for it, because luckily their county is not one of the six most north easterly ones.

You go on as if the disinclination to bang a drum for a united Ireland is some sort of crime. Who, precisely, is trying to disguise their apathy? I think the widespread apathy is pretty well undisguised. I don't think either that there's any substance in the suggestion that the apathy disguises a widespread antipathy "down here" to the idea of a United Ireland.

I think the overwhelming attitude is that political unity would be a nice idea, but not worth another drop of Irish blood (or any other blood, either), as long as people are living in a free democratic society, particularly now that the political union that makes a real difference to peoples' lives is the European one of which we're all members.

I never once claimed it was a crime. I simply asked what the excuse was during the "good times" to disguise the apathy, since during the "bad times", money is being used as the excuse to disguise this apathy. I think the apathy is being disguised (just very very poorly). Most people from the 26 counties that I have ever talked about this with genuinely don't seem to give a feck about Irish Re-Unification, but most would nowadays use the old "what about the cost" rather than come clean and say they just don't give a flying fcuk.

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 07:00:44 PM

Quote from: Hardy on April 15, 2011, 06:48:20 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 06:36:50 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 06:06:56 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

Why should they need an excuse?

I don't care for Bananas. Or Jazz. Or Motor Sport.

So if people in ROI are increasingly unconcerned about a United Ireland, so what?

Anyhow, whilst we can argue the toss over the importance of economics in determining peoples' views, I suspect that two another factors may be influencing opinions South of the border:
1. The population being a young one, memories of the Troubles are beginning to fade from their consciousness, never mind the Eater Rising, Black & Tans and the War of Independence etc;
2. Now that RC's/Nationalists in NI are seen to be getting a fair crack of the whip over Civil Rights and Jobs etc, the "need" for Southerners to care is that much less.

"So what?" It might be a case of "so what" for you. Does that mean it has to be for everyone? Yes, we all know you are a unionist, but surely that doesn't exclude you from accepting that for a place where so many fought and died for All Ireland Independence for centuries, and in a place where most remember such people as patriots, that the people of the 26 counties might still be vocally supportive of the idea of All-Ireland Independence/Unity rather than use dishonest excuses to disguise a complete apathy for it, because luckily their county is not one of the six most north easterly ones.

You go on as if the disinclination to bang a drum for a united Ireland is some sort of crime. Who, precisely, is trying to disguise their apathy? I think the widespread apathy is pretty well undisguised. I don't think either that there's any substance in the suggestion that the apathy disguises a widespread antipathy "down here" to the idea of a United Ireland.

I think the overwhelming attitude is that political unity would be a nice idea, but not worth another drop of Irish blood (or any other blood, either), as long as people are living in a free democratic society, particularly now that the political union that makes a real difference to peoples' lives is the European one of which we're all members.

I never once claimed it was a crime. I simply asked what the excuse was during the "good times" to disguise the apathy, since during the "bad times", money is being used as the excuse to disguise this apathy. I think the apathy is being disguised (just very very poorly). Most people from the 26 counties that I have ever talked about this with genuinely don't seem to give a feck about Irish Re-Unification, but most would nowadays use the old "what about the cost" rather than come clean and say they just don't give a flying fcuk.

And I simply answered that the apathy is not disguised at all, so your thesis doesn't stand up. Why do people need an "excuse"? That's where my "crime" reference (exaggerating for effect) comes from. The fact that you insist people need an excuse for their position implies that you think that position is reprehensible. It's not - it's just different to yours.

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 07:00:44 PM

Quote from: Hardy on April 15, 2011, 06:48:20 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 06:36:50 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 06:06:56 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

Why should they need an excuse?

I don't care for Bananas. Or Jazz. Or Motor Sport.

So if people in ROI are increasingly unconcerned about a United Ireland, so what?

Anyhow, whilst we can argue the toss over the importance of economics in determining peoples' views, I suspect that two another factors may be influencing opinions South of the border:
1. The population being a young one, memories of the Troubles are beginning to fade from their consciousness, never mind the Eater Rising, Black & Tans and the War of Independence etc;
2. Now that RC's/Nationalists in NI are seen to be getting a fair crack of the whip over Civil Rights and Jobs etc, the "need" for Southerners to care is that much less.

"So what?" It might be a case of "so what" for you. Does that mean it has to be for everyone? Yes, we all know you are a unionist, but surely that doesn't exclude you from accepting that for a place where so many fought and died for All Ireland Independence for centuries, and in a place where most remember such people as patriots, that the people of the 26 counties might still be vocally supportive of the idea of All-Ireland Independence/Unity rather than use dishonest excuses to disguise a complete apathy for it, because luckily their county is not one of the six most north easterly ones.

You go on as if the disinclination to bang a drum for a united Ireland is some sort of crime. Who, precisely, is trying to disguise their apathy? I think the widespread apathy is pretty well undisguised. I don't think either that there's any substance in the suggestion that the apathy disguises a widespread antipathy "down here" to the idea of a United Ireland.

I think the overwhelming attitude is that political unity would be a nice idea, but not worth another drop of Irish blood (or any other blood, either), as long as people are living in a free democratic society, particularly now that the political union that makes a real difference to peoples' lives is the European one of which we're all members.

I never once claimed it was a crime. I simply asked what the excuse was during the "good times" to disguise the apathy, since during the "bad times", money is being used as the excuse to disguise this apathy. I think the apathy is being disguised (just very very poorly). Most people from the 26 counties that I have ever talked about this with genuinely don't seem to give a feck about Irish Re-Unification, but most would nowadays use the old "what about the cost" rather than come clean and say they just don't give a flying fcuk.

Why do people need to have an excuse for being apathetic?

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 06:36:50 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 06:06:56 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

Why should they need an excuse?

I don't care for Bananas. Or Jazz. Or Motor Sport.

So if people in ROI are increasingly unconcerned about a United Ireland, so what?

Anyhow, whilst we can argue the toss over the importance of economics in determining peoples' views, I suspect that two another factors may be influencing opinions South of the border:
1. The population being a young one, memories of the Troubles are beginning to fade from their consciousness, never mind the Eater Rising, Black & Tans and the War of Independence etc;
2. Now that RC's/Nationalists in NI are seen to be getting a fair crack of the whip over Civil Rights and Jobs etc, the "need" for Southerners to care is that much less.

"So what?" It might be a case of "so what" for you. Does that mean it has to be for everyone? Yes, we all know you are a unionist, but surely that doesn't exclude you from accepting that for a place where so many fought and died for All Ireland Independence for centuries, and in a place where most remember such people as patriots, that the people of the 26 counties might still be vocally supportive of the idea of All-Ireland Independence/Unity rather than use dishonest excuses to disguise a complete apathy for it, because luckily their county is not one of the six most north easterly ones.

Does everything always come back for you to all those who "fought and died etc"?

We can ALL point to our own suffering and sacrifice etc.

Personally I find it nauseating that someone I would term a murderous b a s t a r d like Martin McGuinness can occupy the position of Deputy First Minister in the very country which he and his fellow terrorists tried so hard to destroy, at such terrible cost to human life etc.

But I accept that it is so, and get on with it.

You, meanwhile, seem unable to accept that this is the 21st Century, there is a new dispensation in Ireland, democratically voted for by an overwhelming majority  on the island, which says that NI can only ever become part of a UI following a vote by the majority of its people in a referendum.

And if the majority of the people in ROI are content with that, especially now that their fellow Irish citizens in NI are no longer being discriminated against etc, why cannot you accept that?

Quite honestly, you would be far better using your time to persuade your fellow Irishmen and women in NI who are Unionists that they could be better off in a UI, than railing against Southerners for getting on with their own lives etc.

On which point, I would advise you that virtually nothing you ever post on the topic of Irish Unity is ever likely to persuade Unionists of your case - quite the contrary, in fact.

Quote from: Maguire01 on April 15, 2011, 07:11:48 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 07:00:44 PM

Quote from: Hardy on April 15, 2011, 06:48:20 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 06:36:50 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 06:06:56 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

Why should they need an excuse?

I don't care for Bananas. Or Jazz. Or Motor Sport.

So if people in ROI are increasingly unconcerned about a United Ireland, so what?

Anyhow, whilst we can argue the toss over the importance of economics in determining peoples' views, I suspect that two another factors may be influencing opinions South of the border:
1. The population being a young one, memories of the Troubles are beginning to fade from their consciousness, never mind the Eater Rising, Black & Tans and the War of Independence etc;
2. Now that RC's/Nationalists in NI are seen to be getting a fair crack of the whip over Civil Rights and Jobs etc, the "need" for Southerners to care is that much less.

"So what?" It might be a case of "so what" for you. Does that mean it has to be for everyone? Yes, we all know you are a unionist, but surely that doesn't exclude you from accepting that for a place where so many fought and died for All Ireland Independence for centuries, and in a place where most remember such people as patriots, that the people of the 26 counties might still be vocally supportive of the idea of All-Ireland Independence/Unity rather than use dishonest excuses to disguise a complete apathy for it, because luckily their county is not one of the six most north easterly ones.

You go on as if the disinclination to bang a drum for a united Ireland is some sort of crime. Who, precisely, is trying to disguise their apathy? I think the widespread apathy is pretty well undisguised. I don't think either that there's any substance in the suggestion that the apathy disguises a widespread antipathy "down here" to the idea of a United Ireland.

I think the overwhelming attitude is that political unity would be a nice idea, but not worth another drop of Irish blood (or any other blood, either), as long as people are living in a free democratic society, particularly now that the political union that makes a real difference to peoples' lives is the European one of which we're all members.

I never once claimed it was a crime. I simply asked what the excuse was during the "good times" to disguise the apathy, since during the "bad times", money is being used as the excuse to disguise this apathy. I think the apathy is being disguised (just very very poorly). Most people from the 26 counties that I have ever talked about this with genuinely don't seem to give a feck about Irish Re-Unification, but most would nowadays use the old "what about the cost" rather than come clean and say they just don't give a flying fcuk.

Why do people need to have an excuse for being apathetic?

Hardy/Maguire, again, that would be my whole point. I am pointing out that this issue of "cost" is just an excuse. Excuses are not needed. An excuse is being used now when people could be honest and admit they just don't care. Hence why I am getting at how there were no excuses during the "good times", true colours shone through and re-unification was simply forgotten about.

Quote from: Maguire01 on April 15, 2011, 06:58:22 PM

Quote from: AQMP on April 15, 2011, 05:56:07 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 05:49:00 PM

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on April 15, 2011, 05:30:58 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on April 15, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

What if - the answer to that is never? Where does that leave 6 county republicans and nationalists? What would happen next?

Ive always cared.

Good for you.

Mind, it's a shame you don't count:
The two Governments:
(i) recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain or a sovereign united Ireland;
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf

I thought in a democracy everyone's vote counted or is it only if you vote for the winner?

To be fair, the GFA set out who could vote for what; so if you voted for that, then you've already had a say in the matter.

When Southerners overwhelmingly endorsed the GFA, they also explicitly accepted that they no longer had any say over Irish Unity, so long as a majority in NI are/were opposed to it.

Which is the point I was making to Sligonian.

Therefore instead of telling NI Unionists what we must think, Irish Republicans like Sligonian might be better advised to try persuading us what we might  think.

To date, they've made a right f u c k i n g hames of it...

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 07:00:44 PMI simply asked what the excuse was during the "good times" to disguise the apathy, since during the "bad times", money is being used as the excuse to disguise this apathy. I think the apathy is being disguised (just very very poorly). Most people from the 26 counties that I have ever talked about this with genuinely don't seem to give a feck about Irish Re-Unification, but most would nowadays use the old "what about the cost" rather than come clean and say they just don't give a flying fcuk.

Has it ever occurred to you that when faced with a militant, Nordie Republican demanding to know why they are not all strongly in favour of a UI etc, your average Southerner cites "cost" as the reason, out of politeness and the desire to avoid a row?

So the majority of Southerners don't care about Irish Unity.

When is the penny going to drop that that is your  problem, not theirs?

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 07:30:38 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 06:36:50 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 06:06:56 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

Why should they need an excuse?

I don't care for Bananas. Or Jazz. Or Motor Sport.

So if people in ROI are increasingly unconcerned about a United Ireland, so what?

Anyhow, whilst we can argue the toss over the importance of economics in determining peoples' views, I suspect that two another factors may be influencing opinions South of the border:
1. The population being a young one, memories of the Troubles are beginning to fade from their consciousness, never mind the Eater Rising, Black & Tans and the War of Independence etc;
2. Now that RC's/Nationalists in NI are seen to be getting a fair crack of the whip over Civil Rights and Jobs etc, the "need" for Southerners to care is that much less.

"So what?" It might be a case of "so what" for you. Does that mean it has to be for everyone? Yes, we all know you are a unionist, but surely that doesn't exclude you from accepting that for a place where so many fought and died for All Ireland Independence for centuries, and in a place where most remember such people as patriots, that the people of the 26 counties might still be vocally supportive of the idea of All-Ireland Independence/Unity rather than use dishonest excuses to disguise a complete apathy for it, because luckily their county is not one of the six most north easterly ones.

Does everything always come back for you to all those who "fought and died etc"?

We can ALL point to our own suffering and sacrifice etc.

Personally I find it nauseating that someone I would term a murderous b a s t a r d like Martin McGuinness can occupy the position of Deputy First Minister in the very country which he and his fellow terrorists tried so hard to destroy, at such terrible cost to human life etc.

But I accept that it is so, and get on with it.

You, meanwhile, seem unable to accept that this is the 21st Century, there is a new dispensation in Ireland, democratically voted for by an overwhelming majority  on the island, which says that NI can only ever become part of a UI following a vote by the majority of its people in a referendum.

And if the majority of the people in ROI are content with that, especially now that their fellow Irish citizens in NI are no longer being discriminated against etc, why cannot you accept that?

Quite honestly, you would be far better using your time to persuade your fellow Irishmen and women in NI who are Unionists that they could be better off in a UI, than railing against Southerners for getting on with their own lives etc.

On which point, I would advise you that virtually nothing you ever post on the topic of Irish Unity is ever likely to persuade Unionists of your case - quite the contrary, in fact.

That was a long winded way of not answering my question. Though to take you up on a couple of points. You seem to imply that I am either unaware of the "new dispensation" of the GFA, or that I am opposed to it. Both are incorrect. I am fully behind it. Does that mean that we should all not care about our views which were the very reason this dispensation came into being? No. To paraphrase you; personally I find it nauseating that murderous b a s t a r d s in Whitehall still occupy any part of Ireland, a country which those terrorists tried so hard to destroy, at such terrible cost to human life etc but I accept that this is the status quo. That doesn't mean that if one day, I decided to not care anymore, that I would make up excuses such as "ah what about the cost of re-unification". As it is though, I am unlikely to ever feel such a way.

On which point, I would advise you that virtually nothing you ever post on the topic of maintaining the six county state is ever likely to persuade Republicans of your case - quite the contrary, in fact.

And besides all that, my whole entire point in all of this is that if certain people in the 26 counties don't care, that is their right (I never said otherwise) but to use the excuse of "cost" is simply dishonest. The only reason I asked what the "excuse" was during the "boom" years is to highlight that there was no excuse. People showed their apathy without excuses. Which is much more palatable.

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 07:47:35 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 07:00:44 PMI simply asked what the excuse was during the "good times" to disguise the apathy, since during the "bad times", money is being used as the excuse to disguise this apathy. I think the apathy is being disguised (just very very poorly). Most people from the 26 counties that I have ever talked about this with genuinely don't seem to give a feck about Irish Re-Unification, but most would nowadays use the old "what about the cost" rather than come clean and say they just don't give a flying fcuk.

Has it ever occurred to you that when faced with a militant, Nordie Republican demanding to know why they are not all strongly in favour of a UI etc, your average Southerner cites "cost" as the reason, out of politeness and the desire to avoid a row?

So the majority of Southerners don't care about Irish Unity.

When is the penny going to drop that that is your  problem, not theirs?

"Cost" was used as an excuse before I even posted on the thread.

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

I would agree that not many in the 26 appear to "care,"- if your use of the word means what I think it does. I hate generalising and I don't claim to speak on behalf of any one other than myself but it seems fair to say that the vast majority of the Republic's citizens would like very much to see positive, tangible results in the wake of the GFA.
They "cared" enough to support the referenda to removes Articles 2 & 3 from our constitution and to back the GFA by overwhelming majorities.  They "cared" enough to show their appreciation of what Ian Paisley had achieved by giving him a rousing welcomed when he visited the South. They also have left no one in any doubt that there is overwhelming support here for any move to breakdown sectarian barriers of all sorts between the communities in the North.
The efforts of Gerry Adams and his Sinn Fein colleagues were appreciated also and the same applies to all from every sector of Northern society who worked in the interests of peaceful cooperation and cross community bridge building.
I don't have any excuse to offer to any one about our refusal to take sides in the affairs of Northern Ireland during the Celtic Tiger years- or at any time since. I'd safely say very few here would do so either.
I think it is reasonable for our citizens to stand off and allow the various factions in the 6 to learn how to peacefully co-exist before involving ourselves either overtly or covertly in your affairs.
IMO, most people on the island would be in favour of some sort of a united Ireland even if it's not quite the United Ireland the RIRA and their fellow-travellers appear to want.

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on April 15, 2011, 05:30:58 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on April 15, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

What if - the answer to that is never? Where does that leave 6 county republicans and nationalists? What would happen next?

Ive always cared.

Me too. Just because I don't go spouting things on a message forum doesn't mean I care about a United Ireland.

A united Ireland is your only man. the brits need to feck away off forever.

Quote from: Hardy on April 15, 2011, 07:11:00 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 07:00:44 PM

Quote from: Hardy on April 15, 2011, 06:48:20 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 06:36:50 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 15, 2011, 06:06:56 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

Quote from: Minder on April 15, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

Why should they need an excuse?

I don't care for Bananas. Or Jazz. Or Motor Sport.

So if people in ROI are increasingly unconcerned about a United Ireland, so what?

Anyhow, whilst we can argue the toss over the importance of economics in determining peoples' views, I suspect that two another factors may be influencing opinions South of the border:
1. The population being a young one, memories of the Troubles are beginning to fade from their consciousness, never mind the Eater Rising, Black & Tans and the War of Independence etc;
2. Now that RC's/Nationalists in NI are seen to be getting a fair crack of the whip over Civil Rights and Jobs etc, the "need" for Southerners to care is that much less.

"So what?" It might be a case of "so what" for you. Does that mean it has to be for everyone? Yes, we all know you are a unionist, but surely that doesn't exclude you from accepting that for a place where so many fought and died for All Ireland Independence for centuries, and in a place where most remember such people as patriots, that the people of the 26 counties might still be vocally supportive of the idea of All-Ireland Independence/Unity rather than use dishonest excuses to disguise a complete apathy for it, because luckily their county is not one of the six most north easterly ones.

You go on as if the disinclination to bang a drum for a united Ireland is some sort of crime. Who, precisely, is trying to disguise their apathy? I think the widespread apathy is pretty well undisguised. I don't think either that there's any substance in the suggestion that the apathy disguises a widespread antipathy "down here" to the idea of a United Ireland.

I think the overwhelming attitude is that political unity would be a nice idea, but not worth another drop of Irish blood (or any other blood, either), as long as people are living in a free democratic society, particularly now that the political union that makes a real difference to peoples' lives is the European one of which we're all members.

I never once claimed it was a crime. I simply asked what the excuse was during the "good times" to disguise the apathy, since during the "bad times", money is being used as the excuse to disguise this apathy. I think the apathy is being disguised (just very very poorly). Most people from the 26 counties that I have ever talked about this with genuinely don't seem to give a feck about Irish Re-Unification, but most would nowadays use the old "what about the cost" rather than come clean and say they just don't give a flying fcuk.

And I simply answered that the apathy is not disguised at all, so your thesis doesn't stand up. Why do people need an "excuse"? That's where my "crime" reference (exaggerating for effect) comes from. The fact that you insist people need an excuse for their position implies that you think that position is reprehensible. It's not - it's just different to yours.

I believe it is. So the point stands. As has been shown on this board many times. IMO whenever someone from the south says they don't want a UI it's inevitably followed by a Economic reason as outlined by Nally earlier. Why not just say I'd rather there wasn't a United Ireland as things are fine for me the way they are.   

ah good, we haven't had a thread about this in about 2 weeks. 

I'm afraid of a United Ireland. We're a fightable race and would find a new common enemy.

It could be

1. Women
2. Gays
3. Animals

At least with the British it seems less haphazard.

'allow the various factions in the 6 to learn how to peacefully co-exist before involving ourselves either overtly or covertly in your affairs.'

I thought the whole justification for a UI was because our affairs are also your affairs i.e we're fellow countrymen / weemin. I thought we were family, now you're telling me you're just a polite neighbour?  :o

Quote from: Myles Na G. on April 15, 2011, 10:34:12 PM
'allow the various factions in the 6 to learn how to peacefully co-exist before involving ourselves either overtly or covertly in your affairs.'

I thought the whole justification for a UI was because our affairs are also your affairs i.e we're fellow countrymen / weemin. I thought we were family, now you're telling me you're just a polite neighbour?  :o

I think and I may be wrong, he means it more in the kinda way that people from South Australia and Victoria are fellow Australians but a South Australian wouldn't see it their business to interfere in the internal workings of Victoria (except when they argue about the water in the Murray River of course  :P  ).

Quote from: Myles Na G. on April 15, 2011, 10:34:12 PM
'allow the various factions in the 6 to learn how to peacefully co-exist before involving ourselves either overtly or covertly in your affairs.'

I thought the whole justification for a UI was because our affairs are also your affairs i.e we're fellow countrymen / weemin. I thought we were family, now you're telling me you're just a polite neighbour?  :o

So I am, Myles, so I am.
I propose staying that way until you and Nally and everyone else concerned stop squabbling and get down to serious negotiations to sort out your internal affairs first.
We care enough about you (the people of Northern Ireland) to stay out of the limelight until you can sort your collective asses from your collective elbows.
Then and only then will any sane person in the republic consider merger talks of any sort.
Remember we are not talking about a UI here and now. There is no marriage yet-we are still at the foreplay stage.

Quote from: stew on April 15, 2011, 08:26:19 PM
A united Ireland is your only man. the brits need to feck away off forever.

The Brits need to feck off forever?  Would that involve some sort of ethnic cleansing of all the 'Brits' who live in Ireland and, more specifically, Northern Ireland?  Do you think I, a native Ulsterman/Irishman/'Brit', should 'feck away off forever'?

If so, I think the mask has slipped somewhat.

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 07:51:02 PM
Though to take you up on a couple of points. You seem to imply that I am either unaware of the "new dispensation" of the GFA, or that I am opposed to it. Both are incorrect. I am fully behind it. Does that mean that we should all not care about our views which were the very reason this dispensation came into being? No. To paraphrase you; personally I find it nauseating that murderous b a s t a r d s in Whitehall still occupy any part of Ireland, a country which those terrorists tried so hard to destroy, at such terrible cost to human life etc but I accept that this is the status quo. That doesn't mean that if one day, I decided to not care anymore, that I would make up excuses such as "ah what about the cost of re-unification". As it is though, I am unlikely to ever feel such a way.

That response ("murderous b a s t a r d s in Whitehall etc"), whether accurate or not, is surely also entirely misplaced, since the "problem" for Irish Republicans is not a few hundred Brits in Whitehall, or even a few thousand Brits in Army Uniform.
Rather it is one million Brits in Belfast, Ballymena, Ballinamallard etc .

In other words, if Irish Republicans are to achieve the UI which they desire, then their task is to persuade  those million British Irishmen of their (Republicans') case. To date they have failed miserably; in fact if anything, their preferred method (coercion) has only had the opposite effect.

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 07:51:02 PMOn which point, I would advise you that virtually nothing you ever post on the topic of maintaining the six county state is ever likely to persuade Republicans of your case - quite the contrary, in fact.

Very likely.

But when you (no doubt sincerely) endorsed the GFA (above), it is clear that you simply do not understand the consequences of what it is you agreed to.

For under that settlement, Unionists do not need to persuade Republicans; in fact now that there is fairness and equality for everyone in NI, we do not need to do anything at all.

Quote from: Nally Stand on April 15, 2011, 07:51:02 PMAnd besides all that, my whole entire point in all of this is that if certain people in the 26 counties don't care, that is their right (I never said otherwise) but to use the excuse of "cost" is simply dishonest. The only reason I asked what the "excuse" was during the "boom" years is to highlight that there was no excuse. People showed their apathy without excuses. Which is much more palatable.

Far be it for me to intevene in a "domestic", but whether Southerners are honest about their apathy towards a UI, or whether they try to excuse their apathy on spurious grounds ("cost"), should be irrelevant to you.

Rather, you might be advised to try something which might dispel their apathy. On which point, sending Gerry Adams south is hardly the most intelligent of strategies, seeing as how over the course of 30 years+, he failed utterly in overcoming the other, greater, problem for Irish Republicanism, Northern (Unionist) opposition.  ::)

QuoteSinn Fein unity referendum pledge in assembly manifesto

Sinn Fein is seeking a referendum on Irish unity in its assembly manifesto.

The party is also proposing a referendum on a new all-Ireland constitution, and wants people in Northern Ireland to be allowed to vote in Irish presidential elections.

It calls for tax-varying and borrowing powers to be transferred to Stormont, and cross-border tax harmonisation.

Martin McGuinness said "much has changed" in the four years following the restoration of devolution in 2007.

"The locally elected executive, assembly and all-Ireland bodies are working for the benefit of people across this island," he said.

Mr McGuinness added: "As a society we cannot allow those within and those outside the political process attempt to drag us back. They cannot and will not be allowed to succeed. Those days are gone and will not return.

"While we all retain our differences, we can all be proud of the role we have played in promoting the peace process, by stabilising these institutions and demonstrating the primacy of politics."

Pledges in the Sinn Fein manifesto include:

Increasing economic and fiscal powers away from London to Stormont;
Implementing the Review of Public Administration to deliver £400m in savings, including the reduction of councils from 26 to 11;
Blocking the introduction of separate household water charges;
Opposing any increases in student fees;
Introducing a phone mast levy to generate £160m over four years;
Delivering Bill of Rights;
Promoting the Irish language act, and implementing all-Ireland strategy to create new Gaeltacht areas, particularly in urban centres;
Bringing in all-Ireland public health system which provides free care at point of delivery;
Reinstating 50-50 Catholic/Protestant recruitment policy to the PSNI;
Establish all-Ireland job creation plan.

I can't see any logic in this move at this stage. It's clear it would be defeated, leaving it at least 7 years before another one could take place.

No doubt the Unioinists would kick up a stink, but they should actually welcome this with open arms. It would leave them very comfortable and could be very embarassing for SF.

Quote from: Maguire01 on April 18, 2011, 05:27:10 PM

QuoteSinn Fein unity referendum pledge in assembly manifesto

Sinn Fein is seeking a referendum on Irish unity in its assembly manifesto.

The party is also proposing a referendum on a new all-Ireland constitution, and wants people in Northern Ireland to be allowed to vote in Irish presidential elections.

It calls for tax-varying and borrowing powers to be transferred to Stormont, and cross-border tax harmonisation.

Martin McGuinness said "much has changed" in the four years following the restoration of devolution in 2007.

"The locally elected executive, assembly and all-Ireland bodies are working for the benefit of people across this island," he said.

Mr McGuinness added: "As a society we cannot allow those within and those outside the political process attempt to drag us back. They cannot and will not be allowed to succeed. Those days are gone and will not return.

"While we all retain our differences, we can all be proud of the role we have played in promoting the peace process, by stabilising these institutions and demonstrating the primacy of politics."

Pledges in the Sinn Fein manifesto include:

Increasing economic and fiscal powers away from London to Stormont;
Implementing the Review of Public Administration to deliver £400m in savings, including the reduction of councils from 26 to 11;
Blocking the introduction of separate household water charges;
Opposing any increases in student fees;
Introducing a phone mast levy to generate £160m over four years;
Delivering Bill of Rights;
Promoting the Irish language act, and implementing all-Ireland strategy to create new Gaeltacht areas, particularly in urban centres;
Bringing in all-Ireland public health system which provides free care at point of delivery;
Reinstating 50-50 Catholic/Protestant recruitment policy to the PSNI;
Establish all-Ireland job creation plan.

I can't see any logic in this move at this stage. It's clear it would be defeated, leaving it at least 7 years before another one could take place.

No doubt the Unioinists would kick up a stink, but they should actually welcome this with open arms. It would leave them very comfortable and could be very embarassing for SF.

Puts it on the agenda and stimulates debate. People can't be expected to vote in a referendum until they know what the various options will entail. Mainstream Parties have so far gotten away from outlining their ideas for the future in regards to the shape of the country after reunification. If a referendum is called they'll be able to long-finger no more. Unionists for their part will also have to come up with some sensible counter-arguments rather than dismissing the notion with the usual patronizing bull.

I'd imagine Unionists would have a handy enough time, just pointing to the mess the south is in. I don't think they'll need a massive list of counter-arguments.

But seriously, if a referendum was held in the next Assembly term, what way would you expect the figures to be? I'd be surprised if they topped 40%.
And if they were worse than that, it would take some monumental series of events to generate any appetite for a repeat within 10-15 years.

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 05:39:30 PMPuts it on the agenda and stimulates debate.

Yeah, right.

This is typical electioneering, where a political party seeks to curry favour with its target electorate by "writing a cheque" which they know will never be cashed.

The GFA is quite clear: "... the Secretary of State shall exercise the power [to hold a Referendum] if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland."
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf

There has never in the history of NI been any sign that a majority of the NI electorate favoured a UI; I would be entirely confident that the forthcoming election will not change that, either.

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 05:39:30 PMPeople can't be expected to vote in a referendum until they know what the various options will entail.

There won't be a referendum, so why should they waste time considering the "options"?  ::)

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 05:39:30 PMMainstream Parties have so far gotten away from outlining their ideas for the future in regards to the shape of the country after reunification.

Just like they have eg gotten [sic] away with outlining their ideas for the future after a giant meteorite strikes the earth.

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 05:39:30 PMIf a referendum is called they'll be able to long-finger no more.

"If."

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 05:39:30 PMUnionists for their part will also have to come up with some sensible counter-arguments rather than dismissing the notion with the usual patronizing bull.

Unionists don't/won't have to do anything.

The advantage of having the debate now is that it flushes their arguments out into the open where they can be tackled one by one. For example, no one could seriously expect that we would simply be amalgamated into the South as unionists might try to say. Once that is accepted we can move onto discussing the nuts and bolts of the new arrangements and the shape of the whole country not just NI or the bastardised Free Sate version of the "Republic" we have now. If it was held now, I'd guess high 30s/low 40s. However I'd also expect that to rise when the shape of new arrangements become clear and fears are eased, then everything comes into play for the one after.

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 06:25:46 PM
The advantage of having the debate now is that it flushes their arguments out into the open where they can be tackled one by one.

The advantage of having the debate* now is that it (a ) allows SF to emphasise its Green credentials over the SDLP in the forthcoming battle for the Nationalist vote; (b ) it allow SF to stretch ever further its (frankly risible) fiction that the GFA is some sort of "half-way house" towards a UI; and (c ) offers the hope of raising the political temperature generally, which in NI always works to the advantage of the extremist parties. (The Unionist equivalent is the DUP raising the spectre of a SF 1st Minister, when it would make no difference in practice to the administration of NI).

* - Not that Tub-Thumping constitutes "debate"...

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 06:25:46 PMFor example, no one could seriously expect that we would simply be amalgamated into the South as unionists might try to say.

(http://www.emagill.com/gallery/strawman.jpg)
(Straw Man)

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 06:25:46 PMOnce that is accepted we can move onto discussing the nuts and bolts of the new arrangements and the shape of the whole country not just NI or the bastardised Free Sate version of the "Republic" we have now.

"Once that is accepted..."
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-taONX7RUkvI/TZL0ZCdpppI/AAAAAAAABYM/cpwUSjDIc7k/s400/dorothy1.jpg)
"I wish, I wish, I wish  I was in Kansas..."

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 06:25:46 PMIf it was held now, I'd guess high 30s/low 40s. However I'd also expect that to rise when the shape of new arrangements become clear and fears are eased, then everything comes into play for the one after.

The usual Shinner trick of setting a low target, then claiming "victory" when it is marginally exceeded.
Anyhow, if ever there were any prospect of the Shinners getting their "wish" (and there isn't), they wouldn't have the courage to go ahead with it:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GPuQ2gRL3LI/ShvmkxTRoQI/AAAAAAAAAHE/An9fQpdZPq8/s400/cowardly-lion1.jpg)
"Put 'em up, I said, put 'em up..."

It would be kind of funny if counties/ cities/ towns/ townlands etc could vote to become part of a UI.

Quote from: heganboy on April 18, 2011, 08:45:44 PM
It would be kind of funny if counties/ cities/ towns/ townlands etc could vote to become part of a UI.

Great idea. Why not extend the concept? I'm going to see if our village can join Sweden. Because of our location we'd get all the good bits (a working economy, banks instead of casinoes, low inflation, more public holidays, a great health system, good design, public transport, roads) and none of the bad bits (sub-zero weather, 3 months of 24-hour darkness, loads of Swedes about the place).

Quote from: Hardy on April 18, 2011, 09:20:50 PM

Quote from: heganboy on April 18, 2011, 08:45:44 PM
It would be kind of funny if counties/ cities/ towns/ townlands etc could vote to become part of a UI.

Great idea. Why not extend the concept? I'm going to see if our village can join Sweden. Because of our location we'd get all the good bits (a working economy, banks instead of casinoes, low inflation, more public holidays, a great health system, good design, public transport, roads) and none of the bad bits (sub-zero weather, 3 months of 24-hour darkness, loads of Swedes about the place).

Certainly rather have some of these around than Meath heifers women

(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7497/swedishfootballgirlsa.jpg) (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/swedishfootballgirlsa.jpg/)

Quote from: laoislad on April 18, 2011, 09:27:01 PM

Quote from: Hardy on April 18, 2011, 09:20:50 PM

Quote from: heganboy on April 18, 2011, 08:45:44 PM
It would be kind of funny if counties/ cities/ towns/ townlands etc could vote to become part of a UI.

Great idea. Why not extend the concept? I'm going to see if our village can join Sweden. Because of our location we'd get all the good bits (a working economy, banks instead of casinoes, low inflation, more public holidays, a great health system, good design, public transport, roads) and none of the bad bits (sub-zero weather, 3 months of 24-hour darkness, loads of Swedes about the place).

Certainly rather have some of these around than Meath heifers women

(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7497/swedishfootballgirlsa.jpg) (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/swedishfootballgirlsa.jpg/)

They some of our Norse cousins I was on about  ;)

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 06:25:46 PM
Once that is accepted we can move onto discussing the nuts and bolts of the new arrangements and the shape of the whole country not just NI or the bastardised Free Sate version of the "Republic" we have now.

Why do some Northern Republicans do this? They try and insult the people of the Republic and Unionists at every single turn and then expect everyone to be sreaming for a United Ireland. Stop the insults and it might (and probably/hopefully) will happen a lot quicker.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on April 18, 2011, 10:02:32 PM

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 06:25:46 PM
Once that is accepted we can move onto discussing the nuts and bolts of the new arrangements and the shape of the whole country not just NI or the bastardised Free Sate version of the "Republic" we have now.

Why do some Northern Republicans do this? They try and insult the people of the Republic and Unionists at every single turn and then expect everyone to be sreaming for a United Ireland. Stop the insults and it might (and probably/hopefully) will happen a lot quicker.

F*ck you MGHU.

We will decide if/ probably / hopefully a United Ireland will happen, and we'll also decide if it happens quickly, slowly, super quickly or just at a nice wee dander of a pace

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on April 18, 2011, 10:02:32 PM

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 06:25:46 PM
Once that is accepted we can move onto discussing the nuts and bolts of the new arrangements and the shape of the whole country not just NI or the bastardised Free Sate version of the "Republic" we have now.

Why do some Northern Republicans do this? They try and insult the people of the Republic and Unionists at every single turn and then expect everyone to be sreaming for a United Ireland. Stop the insults and it might (and probably/hopefully) will happen a lot quicker.

No need to be so sensitive mghu, no one is insulting you, merely pointing out your "Republic" is not even close to the ideal our forefathers fought. You should be glad we'll soon have a chance to finish the job.

Quote from: ardal on April 18, 2011, 10:08:54 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on April 18, 2011, 10:02:32 PM

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 06:25:46 PM
Once that is accepted we can move onto discussing the nuts and bolts of the new arrangements and the shape of the whole country not just NI or the bastardised Free Sate version of the "Republic" we have now.

Why do some Northern Republicans do this? They try and insult the people of the Republic and Unionists at every single turn and then expect everyone to be sreaming for a United Ireland. Stop the insults and it might (and probably/hopefully) will happen a lot quicker.

F*ck you MGHU.

We will decide if/ probably / hopefully a United Ireland will happen, and we'll also decide if it happens quickly, slowly, super quickly or just at a nice wee dander of a pace

f**k You  Ardal, the Enemies of the Only one True Irish Republic, are the enemies of the Irish people. Long Live the Irish Republic and f**k enemies like you. Irish Army, Irish Rangers and An Garda Síochána to defend us against external terrorism

I LOVE THE IRISH REPUBLIC, IF YOU HATE OUR IRISH REPUBLIC, f**k YOU UP THE ASS WITH A SHARP STICK.

"wouldn't it be great if it could be like this all the time?"

"In other words, if Irish Republicans are to achieve the UI which they desire, then their task is to persuade  those million British Irishmen of their (Republicans') case. To date they have failed miserably; in fact if anything, their preferred method (coercion) has only had the opposite effect." 

Aye, mother England had the same attitude to China re. Hong Kong, too, eh Equitable Gobshite. 

Quote from: Evil Genius on April 18, 2011, 08:11:52 PM

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 06:25:46 PM
The advantage of having the debate now is that it flushes their arguments out into the open where they can be tackled one by one.

The advantage of having the debate* now is that it (a ) allows SF to emphasise its Green credentials over the SDLP in the forthcoming battle for the Nationalist vote; (b ) it allow SF to stretch ever further its (frankly risible) fiction that the GFA is some sort of "half-way house" towards a UI; and (c ) offers the hope of raising the political temperature generally, which in NI always works to the advantage of the extremist parties. (The Unionist equivalent is the DUP raising the spectre of a SF 1st Minister, when it would make no difference in practice to the administration of NI).

* - Not that Tub-Thumping constitutes "debate"...

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 06:25:46 PMFor example, no one could seriously expect that we would simply be amalgamated into the South as unionists might try to say.

(http://www.emagill.com/gallery/strawman.jpg)
(Straw Man)

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 06:25:46 PMOnce that is accepted we can move onto discussing the nuts and bolts of the new arrangements and the shape of the whole country not just NI or the bastardised Free Sate version of the "Republic" we have now.

"Once that is accepted..."
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-taONX7RUkvI/TZL0ZCdpppI/AAAAAAAABYM/cpwUSjDIc7k/s400/dorothy1.jpg)
"I wish, I wish, I wish  I was in Kansas..."

Quote from: Ulick on April 18, 2011, 06:25:46 PMIf it was held now, I'd guess high 30s/low 40s. However I'd also expect that to rise when the shape of new arrangements become clear and fears are eased, then everything comes into play for the one after.

The usual Shinner trick of setting a low target, then claiming "victory" when it is marginally exceeded.
Anyhow, if ever there were any prospect of the Shinners getting their "wish" (and there isn't), they wouldn't have the courage to go ahead with it:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GPuQ2gRL3LI/ShvmkxTRoQI/AAAAAAAAAHE/An9fQpdZPq8/s400/cowardly-lion1.jpg)
"Put 'em up, I said, put 'em up..."

Bit of pot kettle black I know EG...but you've way too much time on your hands mate!

Quote from: Maguire01 on April 19, 2011, 07:42:53 AM
"wouldn't it be great if it could be like this all the time?"

It is indeed; it sure bates a Mayo/Monaghan game any day for honest endeavour and total commitment to the job in hand.  ;D
The latest 'cultural exchange' is shaping up nicely.
I love it when the semi-polite moolagumby is dispensed with and the cyber missiles start to fly -as they always do..
IMO, the inimitable EG is comfortably ahead  but the pack is gaining ground.
What do you think?

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on April 18, 2011, 10:00:18 PM

Quote from: laoislad on April 18, 2011, 09:27:01 PM

Quote from: Hardy on April 18, 2011, 09:20:50 PM

Quote from: heganboy on April 18, 2011, 08:45:44 PM
It would be kind of funny if counties/ cities/ towns/ townlands etc could vote to become part of a UI.

Great idea. Why not extend the concept? I'm going to see if our village can join Sweden. Because of our location we'd get all the good bits (a working economy, banks instead of casinoes, low inflation, more public holidays, a great health system, good design, public transport, roads) and none of the bad bits (sub-zero weather, 3 months of 24-hour darkness, loads of Swedes about the place).

Certainly rather have some of these around than Meath heifers women

(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7497/swedishfootballgirlsa.jpg) (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/swedishfootballgirlsa.jpg/)

They some of our Norse cousins I was on about  ;)

No  they are Ros women .. primrose and blue. ;D

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 19, 2011, 10:17:40 AM

Quote from: Maguire01 on April 19, 2011, 07:42:53 AM
"wouldn't it be great if it could be like this all the time?"

It is indeed; it sure bates a Mayo/Monaghan game any day for honest endeavour and total commitment to the job in hand.  ;D
The latest 'cultural exchange' is shaping up nicely.
I love it when the semi-polite moolagumby is dispensed with and the cyber missiles start to fly -as they always do..
IMO, the inimitable EG is comfortably ahead  but the pack is gaining ground.
What do you think?

Word of the week - moolagumby. Excellent!

(Any details, Lar?).

Quote from: Hardy on April 19, 2011, 11:48:25 AM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 19, 2011, 10:17:40 AM

Quote from: Maguire01 on April 19, 2011, 07:42:53 AM
"wouldn't it be great if it could be like this all the time?"

It is indeed; it sure bates a Mayo/Monaghan game any day for honest endeavour and total commitment to the job in hand.  ;D
The latest 'cultural exchange' is shaping up nicely.
I love it when the semi-polite moolagumby is dispensed with and the cyber missiles start to fly -as they always do..
IMO, the inimitable EG is comfortably ahead  but the pack is gaining ground.
What do you think?

Word of the week - moolagumby. Excellent!

(Any details, Lar?).

Sure, Hardy, always glad to oblige...

A big wig from Washington goes on a visit to an Indian reservation.
He stands on the podium to address the residents: braves, squaws and papooses.
He starts off:
"My friends and fellow-Americans, I have come to offer you the pipe of peace."
"Moolagumby," they all shout back.
Heartened by the immediate and enthusiastic response, he warms to his task.
"The Big White Father in Washington has heard your cries for help."
"Moolagumby," is the response.
"This is a turkey shoot," says yer man to himself, "I'll lay it on with a trowel."
And so he does and every time he takes a breath, the moolagumbys fill the air.
Soon, the natives begin to get restless; they start moving forward and begin shaking their fists and start stamping the ground.
A line of mean looking bouncers has to step in to stop them rushing the podium but even they keep looking over their shoulders and shouting the same thing as they form a chain to hold back the crowd.
The guy is beginning to harbour presidential ambitions as he notes how easily he can get a crowd going. "Even Bertie Ahern can't fool a bunch of suckers like I can," he figures and he really gives it welly.
In the end, he runs out of steam and so does his audiences.
There isn't a single looking glass or an Irish government bond left in him and there isn't a hoarse, solitary moolagumby coming back in return.
He draws a deep breath and turns to the chief.
"Okay, Chief," sez he, "It's time for that walkabout you promised me so I can get outa here and jet back to Washington."
So they wander about the place with the chief leading the way and he gets to look at the poteen making gear and the diesel laundering plant and the likes. Finally, they come to the buffalo stockade.
Yer man goes to step forward but the chief put a hand on his shoulder and says:




"Watch your step or you'll slip on the moolagumby."

I'm lost on that one.

Quote from: Maguire01 on April 19, 2011, 06:08:22 PM
I'm lost on that one.

I'm going to take a punt that it means buffalo shit or bullshit as it may be intended to mean.

I was a bit dissappointed to read the whole thing myself.

I thought he meant Millingimbi, a wee community in Arnhem Land, Oz.

Over 60 per cent of us think we're republicans but only 27 per cent want SF in government

A POLL PUBLISHED in today's Sunday Independent has gauged the public's attitude to republicanism ahead of the Queen's visit to Ireland later this month which itself has angered some in the country's republican movement.

In a poll of 500 random homes nationwide, 64 per cent of people said they considered themselves republican but just 27 per cent said they would like to see the main republican party, Sinn Féin, in government in Ireland.

An overwhelming majority of people rejected the idea that the achievements of Sinn Féin and the Provisional IRA in the North were worth 3,000 lives over 30 years – 91 per cent – 9 per cent  The same number agreed with the belief that the term 'republicanism' had been misappropriated by those who use violence.

An overwhelmingly majority also rejected the actions of dissident republicans. Meanwhile, 75 per cent of people said that the most important aim of republicanism should be a 'free and equal democracy' as opposed to 25 per cent who believed it should be 'a 32 county Ireland'.
http://www.thejournal.ie/over-60-per-cent-of-us-think-were-republicans-but-only-27-per-cent-want-sf-in-government-133065-May2011/?utm_source=shortlink

bit of a contradiction in terms going on there maguire, over 60% say they "think" they are republicans yet they dont seem to have a problem with the queen visiting ireland as a head of state. republics have democratically elected presidents not queens. sinn fein want a democratic republic of ireland (32) run for the people by the people not the queen or the banks. its hard to get that message across

Quote from: lawnseed on May 08, 2011, 06:56:31 PM
bit of a contradiction in terms going on there maguire, over 60% say they "think" they are republicans yet they dont seem to have a problem with the queen visiting ireland as a head of state. republics have democratically elected presidents not queens. sinn fein want a democratic republic of ireland (32) run for the people by the people not the queen or the banks.

I suspect it is misleading of you to take the headline term ("think"), rather than the term ("consider themselves to be").

Anyhow, assuming you consider yourself to be a true Republican, would you protest if eg the King of Spain or the Queen of the Netherlands were to visit Dublin?

Quote from: lawnseed on May 08, 2011, 06:56:31 PMits hard to get that message across

I suspect they may have got the "message", but just consider its purported Republican idealism to be a pretence to justify (outdated) anti-Brit prejudice etc...

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 08, 2011, 07:07:34 PM

Quote from: lawnseed on May 08, 2011, 06:56:31 PM
bit of a contradiction in terms going on there maguire, over 60% say they "think" they are republicans yet they dont seem to have a problem with the queen visiting ireland as a head of state. republics have democratically elected presidents not queens. sinn fein want a democratic republic of ireland (32) run for the people by the people not the queen or the banks.

I suspect it is misleading of you to take the headline term ("think"), rather than the term ("consider themselves to be").

Anyhow, assuming you consider yourself to be a true Republican, would you protest if eg the King of Spain or the Queen of the Netherlands were to visit Dublin?

Quote from: lawnseed on May 08, 2011, 06:56:31 PMits hard to get that message across

I suspect they may have got the "message", but just consider its purported Republican idealism to be a pretence to justify (outdated) anti-Brit prejudice etc...

firstly i wouldnt be bothered protesting when i was in london recently i visited all the monarchys establishments and soon became a great admirer of the royals and especially the queen, any person who can start a war over a rift with their cousins and therein cause the deaths of millons of people and remain in a place of authority and leadership is to be admired hats off to them theyre probably the greatest con artists of all time.
secondly sinn fein have no anti brit prejudice they strive to get the message across that this is our country and we should be running it for the benefit of the people who live here. i firmly believe that the brits are the best friends we have on this planet certainly the best we have in europe. 

Quote from: lawnseed on May 08, 2011, 06:56:31 PM
bit of a contradiction in terms going on there maguire, over 60% say they "think" they are republicans yet they dont seem to have a problem with the queen visiting ireland as a head of state. republics have democratically elected presidents not queens. sinn fein want a democratic republic of ireland (32) run for the people by the people not the queen or the banks. its hard to get that message across

It's not a contradiction at all. They weren't being asked if they wanted the Queen to be their Head of State, just an opinion on their visit.

And the 'head of state' issue is only one narrow aspect of what constitutes a republic.

Quote from: lawnseed on May 08, 2011, 08:16:04 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 08, 2011, 07:07:34 PM

Quote from: lawnseed on May 08, 2011, 06:56:31 PM
bit of a contradiction in terms going on there maguire, over 60% say they "think" they are republicans yet they dont seem to have a problem with the queen visiting ireland as a head of state. republics have democratically elected presidents not queens. sinn fein want a democratic republic of ireland (32) run for the people by the people not the queen or the banks.

I suspect it is misleading of you to take the headline term ("think"), rather than the term ("consider themselves to be").

Anyhow, assuming you consider yourself to be a true Republican, would you protest if eg the King of Spain or the Queen of the Netherlands were to visit Dublin?

Quote from: lawnseed on May 08, 2011, 06:56:31 PMits hard to get that message across

I suspect they may have got the "message", but just consider its purported Republican idealism to be a pretence to justify (outdated) anti-Brit prejudice etc...

firstly i wouldnt be bothered protesting when i was in london recently i visited all the monarchys establishments and soon became a great admirer of the royals and especially the queen, any person who can start a war over a rift with their cousins and therein cause the deaths of millons of people and remain in a place of authority and leadership is to be admired hats off to them theyre probably the greatest con artists of all time.

Which war would this be now?

Quote from: Maguire01 on May 08, 2011, 05:22:57 PM

An overwhelming majority of people rejected the idea that the achievements of Sinn Féin and the Provisional IRA in the North were worth 3,000 lives over 30 years – 91 per cent – 9 per cent  The same number agreed with the belief that the term 'republicanism' had been misappropriated by those who use violence.

Yes because as we all know, all 3000 deaths were because of SF.  ::)
I wonder can we expect the indo next week to ask if the "achievements of the british government were worth 3000 deaths" or was this by any chance just the usual SF bashing nonsense that we have come to expect from that rag?

Quote from: Rossfan on April 19, 2011, 10:57:45 AM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on April 18, 2011, 10:00:18 PM

Quote from: laoislad on April 18, 2011, 09:27:01 PM

Quote from: Hardy on April 18, 2011, 09:20:50 PM

Quote from: heganboy on April 18, 2011, 08:45:44 PM
It would be kind of funny if counties/ cities/ towns/ townlands etc could vote to become part of a UI.

Great idea. Why not extend the concept? I'm going to see if our village can join Sweden. Because of our location we'd get all the good bits (a working economy, banks instead of casinoes, low inflation, more public holidays, a great health system, good design, public transport, roads) and none of the bad bits (sub-zero weather, 3 months of 24-hour darkness, loads of Swedes about the place).

Certainly rather have some of these around than Meath heifers women

(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7497/swedishfootballgirlsa.jpg) (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/swedishfootballgirlsa.jpg/)

They some of our Norse cousins I was on about  ;)

No  they are Ros women .. primrose and blue. ;D

Thats a fine belly button blade

just reading through the comments and still see bickering is rife on this topic, of which i am guilty off too.  but
I was brought up in an Irish culture from East Tyrone.  these days we are free to express that culture.

United Ireland talk is complete fantasy,.....how can there be? when a million people aren't interested?.    Ireland and Britain are inextricably linked in culture, comedy, outlook, sports etc..., and weather....and always will be. 

Untied Ireland talk is divisive and sectarian

Ireland is free.  everyone on it is free to take their own choice.

Everyone is free to speak their language of choice. The Irish language is up to people to revive.  it is not political

Irish culture is global.

Ireland is not "occupied".  We are all a mix of Irish/British.

ye all watch Emmerdale and Damnation Street anyway.

Tom Elliott is a genius for giving us the only entertainment of an otherwise boring election

Quote from: lawnseed on May 08, 2011, 06:56:31 PM
bit of a contradiction in terms going on there maguire, over 60% say they "think" they are republicans yet they dont seem to have a problem with the queen visiting ireland as a head of state. republics have democratically elected presidents not queens. sinn fein want a democratic republic of ireland (32) run for the people by the people not the queen or the banks. its hard to get that message across

Presumably as republicans (thinking or being?) these folk want to have democratically elected head of state but may not have the arrogance to tell other states that they must be republican too.  I mean why should an irish person tell a swedish, british, spanish or dutch citizens what system of government they should have.

I worked for a time in Sweden and was struck how Swedish republicans (they do exist) railed against the "undemocratic monarch" continually but refused to accept their own democratic failure to win any electoral support.

/Jim.

Didn't see any comments here on the latest 'Life & Times' survey. It has been all over the media today.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

Support for a United Ireland at 16% - 33% for Catholics surveyed.

When you look at the numbers it would have been about 300 people surveyed. I've stated before that a 32 County Republic is unlikely to happen. It all depends what type of question is asked.

Quote from: Applesisapples on June 17, 2011, 06:30:49 PM
When you look at the numbers it would have been about 300 people surveyed. I've stated before that a 32 County Republic is unlikely to happen. It all depends what type of question is asked.

Just over 2000, with 600 "refusing to co-operate".

I'm no expert on these surveys, but I understand that it's a statistically valid sample. Even the standard 'margin of error' wouldn't change much.

Here are the results for political party preference. It doesn't quite match election results.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Political_Attitudes/POLPART2.html

Political Party support

Which of these political parties do you feel closest to?

Democratic Unionist Party (DUP)   18
Sinn Fein   11
Ulster Unionist Party (UUP)   16
Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP)   17
Alliance Party   10
Other Party   3
None of these   21
Other answer   2
Don't know   2

Quote from: Maguire01 on June 17, 2011, 06:14:21 PM
Didn't see any comments here on the latest 'Life & Times' survey. It has been all over the media today.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

Support for a United Ireland at 16% - 33% for Catholics surveyed.

sure it has to be a load of balls going by the vote Sinn fein got a few weeks ago,and I am sure at least half of those who vote for the stoops want a UI as well.16% dont think so.

Quote from: dec on June 17, 2011, 07:38:29 PM
Here are the results for political party preference. It doesn't quite match election results.

Indeed it doesn't. A couple of things come into play - firstly there's the 'margin of error' could account for a few percent. Secondly, and probably more significantly, is that this is likely to include people who don't (and didn't) vote. 25% responded 'none of these', 'other answer' or 'don't know' when asked for their 'political party preference'.

You also have to take into account that when it comes to elections SF are traditionally very good at mobilising their voters, the UUP much less so.

Quote from: glens abu on June 17, 2011, 08:19:54 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on June 17, 2011, 06:14:21 PM
Didn't see any comments here on the latest 'Life & Times' survey. It has been all over the media today.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

Support for a United Ireland at 16% - 33% for Catholics surveyed.

sure it has to be a load of balls going by the vote Sinn fein got a few weeks ago,and I am sure at least half of those who vote for the stoops want a UI as well.16% dont think so.

Did you hear Barry McElduff on Talkback? Got very excited in general, but especially by the Mid Ulster caller who said he voted Sinn Féin but did not want a United Ireland. Barry even questioned the validity of the call.

The reality is that 100% of SF voters will not vote for a United Ireland. Some people may well vote for SF now because they feel they represent them well for local issues, even though they might have no big interest in seeing a United Ireland.

I've skimmed the thread quickly, forgive me if I cover over some old ground.

1 - Someone asked the question of why anyone would want a monarchy. The Brits seem happy with theirs. Its popularity rises and falls over time but in general it remains popular enough that it continues to endure. Some people point to the value of maintaining tradition and having someone as head of state who spends their whole life being groomed for the position so that they're well qualified for it by the time they take it. There are disadvantages too of course, and personally I think it's better if power is vested in the people rather than an old institution like the Crown which takes its authority from the invisible man in the sky.

2 - EG tells Sligoman that his opinion doesn't count. Actually it does. The GFA says that Irish unity has to happen if the majority in the north want it AND if a majority in the south agree to it.  Which brings me to ...

3 - Nationalism has an uphill task convincing a majority in the north of the value of its case, but it should not neglect the same job in the south as well since it is every bit as important that a majority on that side of the border is on board.

4 - The Troubles have driven a wedge between the communities in the north and it's going to take a long time to heal those divisions.  So I don't know why people keep asking what would happen if a border poll were held tomorrow or why SF are talking about pushing for one to be held soon, we all know what'd happen. The vote would be overwhelmingly in favour of the status quo.

You see here's my problem with partition. It created a state in the south in which the catholic church had too much influence, and a state in the north in which the protestant/unionist establishment got too big for its boots and wasn't kept in line. Result? An abusive catholic-dominated regime in the south in which catholics and protestants got a raw deal, and an abusive protestant dominated regime in the north in which catholics got a raw deal.

Hardly a roaring success, this partition business, wouldn't you say?

In any sort of longer term persepective why on Earth would a SF voter not want a UI? Was he a smuggler?

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 17, 2011, 10:22:56 PM
You see here's my problem with partition. It created a state in the south in which the catholic church had too much influence, and a state in the north in which the protestant/unionist establishment got too big for its boots and wasn't kept in line. Result? An abusive catholic-dominated regime in the south in which catholics and protestants got a raw deal, and an abusive protestant dominated regime in the north in which catholics got a raw deal.

Hardly a roaring success, this partition business, wouldn't you say?

It wasn't. It was a disaster in most respects. But those main issues are largely settled now.

Now there are those who say that catholics and protestants in Ireland cannot live together, therefore they must be kept apart. But we all know that A this is not true (they do live together quite easily in the south and in many mixed areas in the north) and B even if it were true (which it isn't) it wouldn't be practical. You cannot keep on partitioning people off from each other whether when they're so intermingled whether it's behind "peace" lines or artificial international borders.  They're going to have to come out from their little cliques, get out there and mingle, and achieve reconciliation sooner or later, preferably sooner.

Now one of the biggest obstacles to reconciliation is the elephant in the living room that brings out the denial merchants in droves every time it's mentioned: Segregated education.

(I can almost hear the chants of "integrated education isn't a panacea for all of our troubles here therefore it shouldn't be attempted" and "catholic schools do a good job of teaching respect for these other children that the pupils hardly ever meet" already.)

There was a survey carried out recently (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/catholic-church-is-a-major-obstacle-to-integration-16007871.html) showing that 88% of parents in Northern Ireland would send their children to an integrated school, but the special interests (namely the catholic church) still remain the biggest obstacle to its implementation.  Peter Robinson recently made a  statement of what I thought was the obvious, that the catholic church's own education system should not be funded by the taxpayer. SF and the SDLP jumped down his throat and questioned his motives. 

As long as children grow up separately then this sense of "two communities" is just going to get more and more reinforced.

It's in the interests of nationalist parties to achieve reconciliation in the north since that's part of the only viable pathway to a united Ireland.  Nationalist parties should be at the forefront of the fight to achieve mixed schooling, not opposed to it.  This is particularly more pressing if that survey is anything to go by and public support for integrated schools is as high as it seems to be.

Quote from: armaghniac on June 17, 2011, 10:27:02 PM
In any sort of longer term persepective why on Earth would a SF voter not want a UI? Was he a smuggler?

As i've said, because they might be seen to be useful in dealing with local issues.

The fact is that the current arrangements with the Assembly are actually making 'Northern Ireland' work for a lot of people. Most people probably aren't terribly politically motivated and are quite happy as long as there's stability. I'd imagine the current stability would be a contributor to the fall in desire for a major constitutional upheaval and the level of instability that would bring.

Note that whilst 54% of the Catholic respondants to the survey described themselves as Nationalists (45% described themselves as neither Nationalists or Unionists), only 33% wanted a United Ireland. That leaves 21% apparently describing themselves as Nationalists, but content with the current constitutional position. The current political settlement has given a lot of nationalists the rights and recognitions they didn't have for so long and probably thought they never would have under partition. For some, that's clearly enough.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 17, 2011, 10:32:11 PM
Now one of the biggest obstacles to reconciliation is the elephant in the living room that brings out the denial merchants in droves every time it's mentioned: Segregated education.

I'd say the other is segregated housing.

Quote from: Maguire01 on June 17, 2011, 10:41:10 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 17, 2011, 10:32:11 PM
Now one of the biggest obstacles to reconciliation is the elephant in the living room that brings out the denial merchants in droves every time it's mentioned: Segregated education.

I'd say the other is segregated housing.

And why are they choosing to live separately? Because they were reared separately and feel more comfortable among their own than in mixed company.  Segregated housing is a consequence of segregated education.

Quote from: Maguire01 on June 17, 2011, 10:39:12 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on June 17, 2011, 10:27:02 PM
In any sort of longer term persepective why on Earth would a SF voter not want a UI? Was he a smuggler?

As i've said, because they might be seen to be useful in dealing with local issues.

The fact is that the current arrangements with the Assembly are actually making 'Northern Ireland' work for a lot of people. Most people probably aren't terribly politically motivated and are quite happy as long as there's stability. I'd imagine the current stability would be a contributor to the fall in desire for a major constitutional upheaval and the level of instability that would bring.

Note that whilst 54% of the Catholic respondants to the survey described themselves as Nationalists (45% described themselves as neither Nationalists or Unionists), only 33% wanted a United Ireland. That leaves 21% apparently describing themselves as Nationalists, but content with the current constitutional position. The current political settlement has given a lot of nationalists the rights and recognitions they didn't have for so long and probably thought they never would have under partition. For some, that's clearly enough.

Maguire dont believe all you read in a survey.

Quote from: glens abu on June 17, 2011, 11:40:34 PM
Maguire dont believe all you read in a survey.

I'm gonna take a closer look at that survey. From the article in the Belfast Telegraph they did warn that sometimes people can appear more moderate in a survey than they do in the privacy of a voting booth.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 17, 2011, 11:46:08 PM

Quote from: glens abu on June 17, 2011, 11:40:34 PM
Maguire dont believe all you read in a survey.

I'm gonna take a closer look at that survey. From the article in the Belfast Telegraph they did warn that sometimes people can appear more moderate in a survey than they do in the privacy of a voting booth.

Always do in the North, sure for years they told us that Republicians had no support.Ballot box is what counts.

Quote from: hardstation on June 17, 2011, 11:47:42 PM

Quote from: glens abu on June 17, 2011, 11:40:34 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on June 17, 2011, 10:39:12 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on June 17, 2011, 10:27:02 PM
In any sort of longer term persepective why on Earth would a SF voter not want a UI? Was he a smuggler?

As i've said, because they might be seen to be useful in dealing with local issues.

The fact is that the current arrangements with the Assembly are actually making 'Northern Ireland' work for a lot of people. Most people probably aren't terribly politically motivated and are quite happy as long as there's stability. I'd imagine the current stability would be a contributor to the fall in desire for a major constitutional upheaval and the level of instability that would bring.

Note that whilst 54% of the Catholic respondants to the survey described themselves as Nationalists (45% described themselves as neither Nationalists or Unionists), only 33% wanted a United Ireland. That leaves 21% apparently describing themselves as Nationalists, but content with the current constitutional position. The current political settlement has given a lot of nationalists the rights and recognitions they didn't have for so long and probably thought they never would have under partition. For some, that's clearly enough.

Maguire dont believe all you read in a survey.

Hmmm, this is an easy "Guess the reply" competition.

My guess - "Don't believe all you read in An Phoblacht".

ha ha your right sure we all push are own angle on all subjects.The big difference is the ballot box doesn't say only 16% of taigs want a UI

The SNP is the largest party in Scotland, courtesy of the most recent election. Nevertheless, the SNP isn't falling over itself to organise an independence referendum. Why? Because it knows that at the moment it would lose it by a distance. In the same way, there are a great many Irish nationalists who would give their vote to SF or the SDLP quite happily, but who would vote against a united Ireland in a  referendum polll if it was to be held tomorrow. It's the economy, stupid.

(Last comment aimed specifically at Barry McElduff, who was on different media outlets yesterday arguing -basically - that the poll was flawed and that all SF / SDLP voters would vote for a UI.)

Quote from: glens abu on June 17, 2011, 11:52:07 PM

Quote from: hardstation on June 17, 2011, 11:47:42 PM

Quote from: glens abu on June 17, 2011, 11:40:34 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on June 17, 2011, 10:39:12 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on June 17, 2011, 10:27:02 PM
In any sort of longer term persepective why on Earth would a SF voter not want a UI? Was he a smuggler?

As i've said, because they might be seen to be useful in dealing with local issues.

The fact is that the current arrangements with the Assembly are actually making 'Northern Ireland' work for a lot of people. Most people probably aren't terribly politically motivated and are quite happy as long as there's stability. I'd imagine the current stability would be a contributor to the fall in desire for a major constitutional upheaval and the level of instability that would bring.

Note that whilst 54% of the Catholic respondants to the survey described themselves as Nationalists (45% described themselves as neither Nationalists or Unionists), only 33% wanted a United Ireland. That leaves 21% apparently describing themselves as Nationalists, but content with the current constitutional position. The current political settlement has given a lot of nationalists the rights and recognitions they didn't have for so long and probably thought they never would have under partition. For some, that's clearly enough.

Maguire dont believe all you read in a survey.

Hmmm, this is an easy "Guess the reply" competition.

My guess - "Don't believe all you read in An Phoblacht".

ha ha your right sure we all push are own angle on all subjects.The big difference is the ballot box doesn't say only 16% of taigs want a UI

The ballot box says nothing about the percentage of people wanting a UI. You may infer this from results.

Quote from: hardstation on June 17, 2011, 11:47:42 PM

Quote from: glens abu on June 17, 2011, 11:40:34 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on June 17, 2011, 10:39:12 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on June 17, 2011, 10:27:02 PM
In any sort of longer term persepective why on Earth would a SF voter not want a UI? Was he a smuggler?

As i've said, because they might be seen to be useful in dealing with local issues.

The fact is that the current arrangements with the Assembly are actually making 'Northern Ireland' work for a lot of people. Most people probably aren't terribly politically motivated and are quite happy as long as there's stability. I'd imagine the current stability would be a contributor to the fall in desire for a major constitutional upheaval and the level of instability that would bring.

Note that whilst 54% of the Catholic respondants to the survey described themselves as Nationalists (45% described themselves as neither Nationalists or Unionists), only 33% wanted a United Ireland. That leaves 21% apparently describing themselves as Nationalists, but content with the current constitutional position. The current political settlement has given a lot of nationalists the rights and recognitions they didn't have for so long and probably thought they never would have under partition. For some, that's clearly enough.

Maguire dont believe all you read in a survey.

Hmmm, this is an easy "Guess the reply" competition.

My guess - "Don't believe all you read in An Phoblacht".

I had no intention of mentioning An Phoblacht. But i wonder if the same people would be arguing the validity of the survey if it had been closer to the outcome they'd like(?)

Quote from: glens abu on June 17, 2011, 11:52:07 PM

Quote from: hardstation on June 17, 2011, 11:47:42 PM

Quote from: glens abu on June 17, 2011, 11:40:34 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on June 17, 2011, 10:39:12 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on June 17, 2011, 10:27:02 PM
In any sort of longer term persepective why on Earth would a SF voter not want a UI? Was he a smuggler?

As i've said, because they might be seen to be useful in dealing with local issues.

The fact is that the current arrangements with the Assembly are actually making 'Northern Ireland' work for a lot of people. Most people probably aren't terribly politically motivated and are quite happy as long as there's stability. I'd imagine the current stability would be a contributor to the fall in desire for a major constitutional upheaval and the level of instability that would bring.

Note that whilst 54% of the Catholic respondants to the survey described themselves as Nationalists (45% described themselves as neither Nationalists or Unionists), only 33% wanted a United Ireland. That leaves 21% apparently describing themselves as Nationalists, but content with the current constitutional position. The current political settlement has given a lot of nationalists the rights and recognitions they didn't have for so long and probably thought they never would have under partition. For some, that's clearly enough.

Maguire dont believe all you read in a survey.

Hmmm, this is an easy "Guess the reply" competition.

My guess - "Don't believe all you read in An Phoblacht".

ha ha your right sure we all push are own angle on all subjects.The big difference is the ballot box doesn't say only 16% of taigs want a UI

Have I missed a referendum? If you think the c.42% SF/SDLP votes transfers directly into a 42% 'yes' vote in a border pole, you're deluded.

And it's not 16% of 'taigs' - it's 33%; 16% is the overall survey figure.

Spotted this on RTE :-

The first of two Sinn Féin conferences on the unification of Ireland is taking place in Dublin today.

1 of 1  Gerry Adams - Party understood the importance of addressing the concerns of unionists The first of two Sinn Féin conferences on the unification of Ireland is taking place in Dublin.

The events involve a range of participants from business, economic, sporting, cultural and political backgrounds.

Writer Brian Keenan, who was held hostage in Beirut for four years, and the former UDP politician and columnist David Adams, are among those taking part in the conference at the Rotunda in Dublin.

A second conference will be held in Cork next Saturday.

Announcing the events earlier this month, Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams said his party understood the importance of addressing the concerns of unionists in a meaningful way to allow them to find their place in a new, shared Ireland.

Mr Adams said the vast majority of citizens on this island supported the goal of a united Ireland.

The conference comes after the results of a Life and Times Survey showed 52% of Catholics in Northern Ireland want it to remain part of the United Kingdom.

Many GAA Board contributors going ? :D

Quote from: glens abu on June 17, 2011, 11:52:07 PM

Quote from: hardstation on June 17, 2011, 11:47:42 PM

Quote from: glens abu on June 17, 2011, 11:40:34 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on June 17, 2011, 10:39:12 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on June 17, 2011, 10:27:02 PM
In any sort of longer term persepective why on Earth would a SF voter not want a UI? Was he a smuggler?

As i've said, because they might be seen to be useful in dealing with local issues.

The fact is that the current arrangements with the Assembly are actually making 'Northern Ireland' work for a lot of people. Most people probably aren't terribly politically motivated and are quite happy as long as there's stability. I'd imagine the current stability would be a contributor to the fall in desire for a major constitutional upheaval and the level of instability that would bring.

Note that whilst 54% of the Catholic respondants to the survey described themselves as Nationalists (45% described themselves as neither Nationalists or Unionists), only 33% wanted a United Ireland. That leaves 21% apparently describing themselves as Nationalists, but content with the current constitutional position. The current political settlement has given a lot of nationalists the rights and recognitions they didn't have for so long and probably thought they never would have under partition. For some, that's clearly enough.

Maguire dont believe all you read in a survey.

Hmmm, this is an easy "Guess the reply" competition.

My guess - "Don't believe all you read in An Phoblacht".

ha ha your right sure we all push are own angle on all subjects.The big difference is the ballot box doesn't say only 16% of taigs want a UI

Actually, the big difference is that when people vote in an election (W'minster, Stormont, council etc), they aren't voting in a referendum on a UI, they are voting on a whole variety of issues, for a whole variety of reasons.

Whereas this Opinion Poll was asking people how they would vote in a Referendum on a UI. As such, the latest results only confirm the trend from previous Polls, eg 2009:
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2009/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

Conclusion?

It's over, you've lost, come back to us again in 2116...  ;)

Quote from: Evil Genius on June 20, 2011, 04:08:53 PM
Actually, the big difference is that when people vote in an election (W'minster, Stormont, council etc), they aren't voting in a referendum on a UI, they are voting on a whole variety of issues, for a whole variety of reasons.

Whereas this Opinion Poll was asking people how they would vote in a Referendum on a UI. As such, the latest results only confirm the trend from previous Polls, eg 2009:
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2009/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

Conclusion?

It's over, you've lost, come back to us again in 2116...   

The opinion poll is a load of bollox - This is the same 'accurate' survey that puts 2010 political party support at - DUP 18%, SDLP 17%, UUP 16%, Sinn Fein 11%, Alliance 10%
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Polit.../POLPART2.html

But how people actually voted in 2010 - DUP 24.96%, SDLP 16.47%, UUP 15.19%, SF 25.52

And here's how people have voted over the last 40 years -

1969 – Unionists 67.4%  Nationalists 18.8%
2010 – Unionists 50.6%  Nationalists  41.9%
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/politics/election/electsum.htm

British occupation has two, at most three decades left. If we can wait 8 centuries that time will fly by.
Tick ,tock ,tick, tock  :)  ;)

This United Ireland business is complicated. I would guess that a lot of voters North and South would be swayed by what it would mean to them financially. I may be a supporter of a UI but I'll bet you mine wouldn't look the same as that proposed by others. The GFA has however put in place a system that is designed to work either as part of the UK or as part of a UI and will protect the interests of the minority in both cases. It is not inconceivable that Nationalist in 15 to 20 years time may use a majority should they have one to make the north more Irish in it's symbolism. I think though that when a UI happens it will be to the material advantage of a majority in both parts of Ireland and may even be within a unified "British Isles". The problem now facing SF and to a lesser extent the SDLP is to define a vision of Ireland that works for all, that makes people better off and guarantees them a future. Even a lot of Unionists would go for that. Again as an Irishman I would be more concerned with the use of Unionist symbols and flags to represent the North, I wouldn't want new flags or symbols but recognition given to my political and cultural identity on an equal basis. I could probably live with that within the union, until the time for unity was right. There in lies a challenge to the Unionist population can you reach out?

Quote from: Evil Genius on June 20, 2011, 04:08:53 PMIt's over, you've lost, come back to us again in 2116...  ;)

Sorry to interrupt yer gloating but how are you getting on with your efforts to march down the Garvaghy Rd this weather?

Quote from: Evil Genius on June 20, 2011, 04:08:53 PM
It's over, you've lost, come back to us again in 2116...  ;)

Thankfully none of "you" and none of "us" will be around in 2116.  ;D ;D

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 21, 2011, 05:03:15 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on June 20, 2011, 04:08:53 PMIt's over, you've lost, come back to us again in 2116...  ;)

Sorry to interrupt yer gloating but how are you getting on with your efforts to march down the Garvaghy Rd this weather?

Eh?  ???

I fear you may be confusing me with a member of the Orange Order.

I have no interest in joining with any such (quasi-)religious organisation, nor in its political agenda, especially when it tolerates a fringe membership whose attitude to the Law of the Land is so hypocritical for a self-styled "Loyal Order".  ::)

Still, if that level of petty reply is the best you can come up with when presented with yet more evidence of the increasing unlikelihood of a UI, then I suppose it only reinforces my case, not yours.  8)

P.S. You're not really "sorry to interupt [my] gloating", are you? Nor have you... :D

Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2011, 12:37:34 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 21, 2011, 05:03:15 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on June 20, 2011, 04:08:53 PMIt's over, you've lost, come back to us again in 2116...  ;)

Sorry to interrupt yer gloating but how are you getting on with your efforts to march down the Garvaghy Rd this weather?

Eh?  ???

I fear you may be confusing me with a member of the Orange Order.

I have no interest in joining with any such (quasi-)religious organisation, nor in its political agenda, especially when it tolerates a fringe membership whose attitude to the Law of the Land is so hypocritical for a self-styled "Loyal Order".  ::)

Still, if that level of petty reply is the best you can come up with when presented with yet more evidence of the increasing unlikelihood of a UI, then I suppose it only reinforces my case, not yours.  8)

P.S. You're not really "sorry to interupt [my] gloating", are you? Nor have you... :D

I've posted plenty of detailed replies on the issue of a united Ireland. Your response to them was to never let on you saw them.

BTW, what has an orangeman in common with a double decker bus?

Neither can get up the tunnel in Portadown!

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 21, 2011, 05:25:24 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2011, 12:37:34 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 21, 2011, 05:03:15 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on June 20, 2011, 04:08:53 PMIt's over, you've lost, come back to us again in 2116...  ;)

Sorry to interrupt yer gloating but how are you getting on with your efforts to march down the Garvaghy Rd this weather?

Eh?  ???

I fear you may be confusing me with a member of the Orange Order.

I have no interest in joining with any such (quasi-)religious organisation, nor in its political agenda, especially when it tolerates a fringe membership whose attitude to the Law of the Land is so hypocritical for a self-styled "Loyal Order".  ::)

Still, if that level of petty reply is the best you can come up with when presented with yet more evidence of the increasing unlikelihood of a UI, then I suppose it only reinforces my case, not yours.  8)

P.S. You're not really "sorry to interupt [my] gloating", are you? Nor have you... :D

I've posted plenty of detailed replies on the issue of a united Ireland. Your response to them was to never let on you saw them.

Whatever else, I didn't think even my harshest critics on here could accuse me of dodging an argument!  :D

But even if I were  ignoring your replies (some examples might not go astray, btw), how does that allow you to associate me with the OO/Garvaghy Road etc, in so crass and brainless a manner?  ???

Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2011, 06:48:05 PM
Whatever else, I didn't think even my harshest critics on here could accuse me of dodging an argument!  :D

But even if I were  ignoring your replies (some examples might not go astray, btw), how does that allow you to associate me with the OO/Garvaghy Road etc, in so crass and brainless a manner?  ???

Because I thought that if a reasoned argument wasn't going to get a response out of you then a bit of pointless slagging probably would. And I was right.