Got this petition emailed to me today (no, I did not start it). It did get me thinking about how ridiculous it is to have Ireland's Call played at away games, while the National Anthem is left at home on Irish soil. I thought the whole idea was to avoid offending supporters from the north, but this works on the assumption that northern supporters do not travel to home games, but away games only. It's a weird situation Ireland finds itself in and wide open for petitions such as the below:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/irishanthem/
The reason the national anthem is played at home games is due to the fact that the president or the government may be at the game (well thats the excuse anyway). can pleaple not just get over the Irelands call thing ffs!
What is it about inclusiveness that these people do not understand? Are they impervious to logic?
I'd rather have the anthem but Ireland's Call is a decent gesture to make to our unionist brethren
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 12:36:43 AM
The reason the national anthem is played at home games is due to the fact that the president or the government may be at the game (well thats the excuse anyway). can people not just get over the Irelands call thing ff!
It might help some to get over it if you wrote something sensible.
The anthem is played and the flag is flown because the game is played in the jurisdiction of the Republic.
When the president is there in an official capacity, a short version of the anthem is also played. That is the presidential salute, played in her honour.
What a bunch of f**king idiots.
The Ireland rugby team is supposed to represent two jurisdictions on this island.
So anyone who gives an opinion on something that differs from your opinion is an idiot then ?
What anthem do Northern Ireland use tonto? Aren't they meant to represent two traditions?
And if there are two juristictions and so two anthems, how come only one gets played on away games - surely that is an insult to the majority juristiction.
For what its worth, I turn off the volume when that pathetic excuse of an anthem Irelands Call is played. It turns my stomach and does not represent me. I'd rather have no anthem than that.
I reckon we should play this and it could become Ireland's own version of the Haka.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr8s17QokoY
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 20, 2008, 08:35:24 AM
And if there are two juristictions and so two anthems, how come only one gets played on away games - surely that is an insult to the majority juristiction.
For what its worth, I turn off the volume when that pathetic excuse of an anthem Irelands Call is played. It turns my stomach and does not represent me. I'd rather have no anthem than that.
You may as well play God Save the Queen as this pathetic excuse of an anthem!
Quote from: under the bar on November 20, 2008, 08:42:03 AM
I reckon we should play this and it could become Ireland's own version of the Haka.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr8s17QokoY
Jaysus, a blast from the past. I remember back in me youth, that lad came to the Carrick Springs nightclub in crosskeys to do his dance and there was nearly a riot as the women tried to grab him and the drunken men tried to dance better than him. He needed security to get him out of the place!
this should be played before every international game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CVT_PJJKuA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CVT_PJJKuA)
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2gHDIFLNUY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2gHDIFLNUY)
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 01:25:18 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 12:36:43 AM
The reason the national anthem is played at home games is due to the fact that the president or the government may be at the game (well thats the excuse anyway). can people not just get over the Irelands call thing ff!
It might help some to get over it if you wrote something sensible.
The anthem is played and the flag is flown because the game is played in the jurisdiction of the Republic.
When the president is there in an official capacity, a short version of the anthem is also played. That is the presidential salute, played in her honour.
No your are incorrect, if that was the case they should have played GSTQ in Ravenhill last year as they were in NI. there is no obligation to play the national anthem in Ireland ahead of Irelands Call but it is seem as a compromise to play it in Ireland as it would upset too many people if it was not played!
Compromise Main Street, if the two traditions are ever to get on we will need more of it!!!!
I have no problem with Ireland's Call, what I do have a problem with, and I will be bringing it up with his teacher tomorrow in the Parent Teacher meeting, is the fact that my son was taught it, and not taught his National Anthem in school. This was after last years meeting with his last teacher as part of a 6 Nations project they were doing in school.
Rebels, me hole >:(
Its a bit of a joke in my opinion, but you can be sure the rugger buggers will tell you its just great. I actually had an argument with my cousin about this when he said that it should replace the national anthem (entirely across the board not just rugby). So it was very hard not to just floor him on the spot.
I have no problem listening to it, but I dont think in any circumstances a new anthem should be made just to please the minority. As time goes on politcal correctness and the likes are just getting more and more ridiculous. Im sure alot of the irish rugby players feel very sad that they cant sing the national anthem before ALL of their matches.
QuoteAnd if there are two juristictions and so two anthems, how come only one gets played on away games - surely that is an insult to the majority juristiction.
For what its worth, I turn off the volume when that pathetic excuse of an anthem Irelands Call is played. It turns my stomach and does not represent me. I'd rather have no anthem than that.
Hit the nail on the head there Myles.
Not a massive fan of it but as a comprise it's ok.
Do you think that a compromise was needed? I have protestant friends who attend GAA matches and I am sure they are not over the moon about having to stand for the national anthem but they dont mind because they know what to expect.
I understand the compromise point i.e. play both....but what I don't like is the way the official National Anthem is dropped for all away games...surely something badly wrong with this. How can it offend anyone at away games, when it isn't considered to be offensive at home games.
We should apologise to no one for the lyrical content of our Anthem which was written almost a century ago.
I think the point is not the fact that Ireland's Call exists, but why does the National Anthem not stand beside it with equality, irrespective of where the game is played.
Quote from: balladmaker on November 20, 2008, 11:02:33 AM
I understand the compromise point i.e. play both....but what I don't like is the way the official National Anthem is dropped for all away games...surely something badly wrong with this. How can it offend anyone at away games, when it isn't considered to be offensive at home games.
We should apologise to no one for the lyrical content of our Anthem which was written almost a century ago.
I think the point is not the fact that Ireland's Call exists, but why does the National Anthem not stand beside it with equality, irrespective of where the game is played.
Couldn't have put it better myself. Totally agree.
I think we should of picked a Nation Once Again for the anthem but that is a other issue .
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 10:24:58 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 01:25:18 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 12:36:43 AM
The reason the national anthem is played at home games is due to the fact that the president or the government may be at the game (well thats the excuse anyway). can people not just get over the Irelands call thing ff!
It might help some to get over it if you wrote something sensible.
The anthem is played and the flag is flown because the game is played in the jurisdiction of the Republic.
When the president is there in an official capacity, a short version of the anthem is also played. That is the presidential salute, played in her honour.
No your are incorrect, if that was the case they should have played GSTQ in Ravenhill last year as they were in NI. there is no obligation to play the national anthem in Ireland ahead of Irelands Call but it is seem as a compromise to play it in Ireland as it would upset too many people if it was not played!
Compromise Main Street, if the two traditions are ever to get on we will need more of it!!!!
What are you blabbering about now?
I corrected your nonsense about why the Irish anthem is played in Lansdowne.
That is the IRFU policy at Lansdowne. They can change that policy if they so decide according to the IRFU procedures.
Whatever happens at Ravenhill is another matter altogether and has nothing to do with why the ANbF is played at Lansdowne.
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 11:48:35 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 10:24:58 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 01:25:18 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 12:36:43 AM
The reason the national anthem is played at home games is due to the fact that the president or the government may be at the game (well thats the excuse anyway). can people not just get over the Irelands call thing ff!
It might help some to get over it if you wrote something sensible.
The anthem is played and the flag is flown because the game is played in the jurisdiction of the Republic.
When the president is there in an official capacity, a short version of the anthem is also played. That is the presidential salute, played in her honour.
No your are incorrect, if that was the case they should have played GSTQ in Ravenhill last year as they were in NI. there is no obligation to play the national anthem in Ireland ahead of Irelands Call but it is seem as a compromise to play it in Ireland as it would upset too many people if it was not played!
Compromise Main Street, if the two traditions are ever to get on we will need more of it!!!!
What are you blabbering about now?
I corrected your nonsense about why the Irish anthem is played in Lansdowne.
That is the IRFU policy at Lansdowne. They can change that policy if they so decide according to the IRFU procedures.
Whatever happens at Ravenhill is another matter altogether and has nothing to do with why the ANbF is played at Lansdowne.
::) stop being so rude
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 11:51:59 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 11:48:35 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 10:24:58 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 01:25:18 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 12:36:43 AM
The reason the national anthem is played at home games is due to the fact that the president or the government may be at the game (well thats the excuse anyway). can people not just get over the Irelands call thing ff!
It might help some to get over it if you wrote something sensible.
The anthem is played and the flag is flown because the game is played in the jurisdiction of the Republic.
When the president is there in an official capacity, a short version of the anthem is also played. That is the presidential salute, played in her honour.
No your are incorrect, if that was the case they should have played GSTQ in Ravenhill last year as they were in NI. there is no obligation to play the national anthem in Ireland ahead of Irelands Call but it is seem as a compromise to play it in Ireland as it would upset too many people if it was not played!
Compromise Main Street, if the two traditions are ever to get on we will need more of it!!!!
What are you blabbering about now?
I corrected your nonsense about why the Irish anthem is played in Lansdowne.
That is the IRFU policy at Lansdowne. They can change that policy if they so decide according to the IRFU procedures.
Whatever happens at Ravenhill is another matter altogether and has nothing to do with why the ANbF is played at Lansdowne.
::) stop being so rude
Maybe i've missed this somewhere - but at the last Ireland game in Ravenhill, what anthems were played??
Quoteis the fact that my son was taught it, and not taught his National Anthem in school.
I expect you wouldn't have seen that in Cullyhanna.
Quote from: SidelineKick on November 20, 2008, 10:39:35 AM
Its a bit of a joke in my opinion, but you can be sure the rugger buggers will tell you its just great. I actually had an argument with my cousin about this when he said that it should replace the national anthem (entirely across the board not just rugby). So it was very hard not to just floor him on the spot.
I have no problem listening to it, but I dont think in any circumstances a new anthem should be made just to please the minority. As time goes on politcal correctness and the likes are just getting more and more ridiculous. Im sure alot of the irish rugby players feel very sad that they cant sing the national anthem before ALL of their matches.
lads we must remember that this song was created because Unionist players were going to refuse to play for Ireland in the late 80's / early 90's. this would have left the IRFU with a choice to split or create this song. I am no big fan of this song but it is obvious that some players are just as anti Amhran na bhFiann as we are pro Amhrán na bhFiann so these people must be included.
Also this is a sporting event and I am in noway implying that we change our national anthem, but for the sake of a sporting team i think it is a fair compromise.
Quote from: 45GoneShort on November 20, 2008, 11:54:32 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 11:51:59 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 11:48:35 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 10:24:58 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 01:25:18 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 12:36:43 AM
The reason the national anthem is played at home games is due to the fact that the president or the government may be at the game (well thats the excuse anyway). can people not just get over the Irelands call thing ff!
It might help some to get over it if you wrote something sensible.
The anthem is played and the flag is flown because the game is played in the jurisdiction of the Republic.
When the president is there in an official capacity, a short version of the anthem is also played. That is the presidential salute, played in her honour.
No your are incorrect, if that was the case they should have played GSTQ in Ravenhill last year as they were in NI. there is no obligation to play the national anthem in Ireland ahead of Irelands Call but it is seem as a compromise to play it in Ireland as it would upset too many people if it was not played!
Compromise Main Street, if the two traditions are ever to get on we will need more of it!!!!
What are you blabbering about now?
I corrected your nonsense about why the Irish anthem is played in Lansdowne.
That is the IRFU policy at Lansdowne. They can change that policy if they so decide according to the IRFU procedures.
Whatever happens at Ravenhill is another matter altogether and has nothing to do with why the ANbF is played at Lansdowne.
::) stop being so rude
Maybe i've missed this somewhere - but at the last Ireland game in Ravenhill, what anthems were played??
Irelands Call was played
Main Street understands the situation.
The current situation is not the correct thing for the IRFU to do in my opinion and the IRFU's policy is inconsistent. Playing of two songs before a game also takes the piss and is rude to opponents. But it is fairly typical of the IRFU to not want to upset the commonly misguided view that SS represents the island of Ireland in defiance of reality.
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 11:58:27 AM
Quote from: 45GoneShort on November 20, 2008, 11:54:32 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 11:51:59 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 11:48:35 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 10:24:58 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 01:25:18 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 12:36:43 AM
The reason the national anthem is played at home games is due to the fact that the president or the government may be at the game (well thats the excuse anyway). can people not just get over the Irelands call thing ff!
It might help some to get over it if you wrote something sensible.
The anthem is played and the flag is flown because the game is played in the jurisdiction of the Republic.
When the president is there in an official capacity, a short version of the anthem is also played. That is the presidential salute, played in her honour.
No your are incorrect, if that was the case they should have played GSTQ in Ravenhill last year as they were in NI. there is no obligation to play the national anthem in Ireland ahead of Irelands Call but it is seem as a compromise to play it in Ireland as it would upset too many people if it was not played!
Compromise Main Street, if the two traditions are ever to get on we will need more of it!!!!
What are you blabbering about now?
I corrected your nonsense about why the Irish anthem is played in Lansdowne.
That is the IRFU policy at Lansdowne. They can change that policy if they so decide according to the IRFU procedures.
Whatever happens at Ravenhill is another matter altogether and has nothing to do with why the ANbF is played at Lansdowne.
::) stop being so rude
Maybe i've missed this somewhere - but at the last Ireland game in Ravenhill, what anthems were played??
Irelands Call was played
No AnBF - i suppose the question is - when is a home game not a home game, but i suppose the IRFU have to try and please everyone. I don't really care what they play at their games as i have only passing interest in the Rugby as i don't see it as anywhere near a good a game to watch as Gaelic football never mind Hurling.
Quote from: 45GoneShort on November 20, 2008, 12:04:30 PM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 11:58:27 AM
Quote from: 45GoneShort on November 20, 2008, 11:54:32 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 11:51:59 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 11:48:35 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 10:24:58 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 01:25:18 AM
Quote from: Tankie on November 20, 2008, 12:36:43 AM
The reason the national anthem is played at home games is due to the fact that the president or the government may be at the game (well thats the excuse anyway). can people not just get over the Irelands call thing ff!
It might help some to get over it if you wrote something sensible.
The anthem is played and the flag is flown because the game is played in the jurisdiction of the Republic.
When the president is there in an official capacity, a short version of the anthem is also played. That is the presidential salute, played in her honour.
No your are incorrect, if that was the case they should have played GSTQ in Ravenhill last year as they were in NI. there is no obligation to play the national anthem in Ireland ahead of Irelands Call but it is seem as a compromise to play it in Ireland as it would upset too many people if it was not played!
Compromise Main Street, if the two traditions are ever to get on we will need more of it!!!!
What are you blabbering about now?
I corrected your nonsense about why the Irish anthem is played in Lansdowne.
That is the IRFU policy at Lansdowne. They can change that policy if they so decide according to the IRFU procedures.
Whatever happens at Ravenhill is another matter altogether and has nothing to do with why the ANbF is played at Lansdowne.
::) stop being so rude
Maybe i've missed this somewhere - but at the last Ireland game in Ravenhill, what anthems were played??
Irelands Call was played
No AnBF - i suppose the question is - when is a home game not a home game, but i suppose the IRFU have to try and please everyone. I don't really care what they play at their games as i have only passing interest in the Rugby as i don't see it as anywhere near a good a game to watch as Gaelic football never mind Hurling.
It was a case of the IRFU make a call on it and went with Irelands call only. this is what my point is, theIRFU have no real policy on the matter and just work it out with the ulster boys and do the best they can. there are some serious hard core unionists that play rugby so I would say it is a tricky thing to work out. Its in no way ideal but i think its better than have two teams!
Tankie, Unionist players never refused to play or ever threatened it.
Ireland's Call was composed as the Ireland team needed something to play when the World Cup was introduced. The Soldier Song is only ever played in the Republic of Ireland, not in Northern Ireland and not before outside of the Republic of Ireland. The IRFU policy is that it is not an Anthem that represents the Ireland team but is only played before games that are played in the Republic of Ireland and Anthem that represents the team is Ireland's Call.
There are 3 ways to be consistent:
1) Play the anthem of the home state and nothing else. Amhrán na bhFiann in the Republic and God Save The Queen in Northern Ireland.
2) Play Ireland's Call only
3) Play Ireland's Call and the anthem of the home state.
In my opinion, 1 is not a runner. In a rugby context GSTQ is the English anthem...end of. 3 is cumbersome and the fact that IRFU did not follow the policy in Ravenhill last year makes a mockery of it anyway.
That leaves option 2 as the best possible solution.
/Jim.
Quote from: Roger on November 20, 2008, 12:01:54 PM
Main Street understands the situation.
The current situation is not the correct thing for the IRFU to do in my opinion and the IRFU's policy is inconsistent. Playing of two songs before a game also takes the piss and is rude to opponents. But it is fairly typical of the IRFU to not want to upset the commonly misguided view that SS represents the island of Ireland in defiance of reality.
It takes no longer than the Haka. Do you consider that rude?
Jim_Murphy, I agree totally.
GNevin, the Haka has become something that unfortunately has evolved from a traditional thing that was more of a bit of fun etc. If you see footage of it in the 1970s it is completely different to the way it is delivered now. Now I think it has developed into something quite aggressive and acts as a psyche-up for the All Blacks, Samoans etc and anyone who have one. It is pretty daft in my opinion seeing Richie McCaw sticking his tongue out with his eyes popping out and dancing around like that since he is not Maori and it is no more cultural to me than it is to him. But it clearly acts as a psyche-up for the whole team and if I was playing against them I don't believe teams should stand in front of it or respect it in any fashion. Players and teams playing these haka teams should making their final personal and team preparations before kick-off and let the All Black's do the same. If this means the haka then fair enough.
I must say, Irelands Call is truly woeful...not to mention the bit about 'answering our country's call'. What country? :-\
Since, at Ravenhill, the IRFU went back on the long standing convention of playing the host nation anthem, Ireland rugby team no longer represents us all, from all traditions. It represents only one political outlook on the island. The Unionist opinion isnt deemed worthy of respect by the iRFU and it was clearly felt that the Nationalist community, north and south, wouldnt have been magnanimous enough to repsect that. True or not, I dont know?
As such, the IRFU may as well revert to the Republic's anthem only, home and away. The team isnt one I identify with any longer. Continuing with Ireland's Call serves no purpose. The damage has been done.
Boo hoo :'(
I dont mind them playing Irelands call, the only problem i have is that they play it after the national anthem. IMO the anthem should be played 2nd, as it is afterall, the IRISH anthem. I no its only a small point, but i think it would be better that way
Good contribution ZIggy!
In a pissy mood today Sideline :D
An experienced poster like you should know not to take it out on the rest of the board :D
Quote from: iluvni on November 20, 2008, 12:36:30 PM
I must say, Irelands Call is truly woeful...not to mention the bit about 'answering our country's call'. What country? :-\
Since, at Ravenhill, the IRFU went back on the long standing convention of playing the host nation anthem, Ireland rugby team no longer represents us all, from all traditions. It represents only one political outlook on the island. The Unionist opinion isnt deemed worthy of respect by the iRFU and it was clearly felt that the Nationalist community, north and south, wouldnt have been magnanimous enough to repsect that. True or not, I dont know?
As such, the IRFU may as well revert to the Republic's anthem only, home and away. The team isnt one I identify with any longer. Continuing with Ireland's Call serves no purpose. The damage has been done.
You have to laugh. On the one hand you have the idiots who cannot see past the end of their own nose and accept that the IRFU's use of Ireland's Call, which in itself may not be a great anthem, is a noble effort to include the significant proportion of the island who are unionist and on the other, you have the likes of this gentleman, who completely ignores the spirit of the IRFU's clumsy efforts and throws the baby out with the bathwater because GSTQ wasn't played.
Quote from: iluvni on November 20, 2008, 12:36:30 PM
I must say, Irelands Call is truly woeful...not to mention the bit about 'answering our country's call'. What country? :-\
Ireland's Call may not be to everyone tastes musically. That said not many anthem's are (Apart from France) but people are just used to them. As for countries vs. country I'd think you are crediting Mr. Coulter with too much if you think that is some kind of deliberate slight.
Quote from: iluvni on November 20, 2008, 12:36:30 PM
Since, at Ravenhill, the IRFU went back on the long standing convention of playing the host nation anthem, Ireland rugby team no longer represents us all, from all traditions. It represents only one political outlook on the island. The Unionist opinion isnt deemed worthy of respect by the iRFU and it was clearly felt that the Nationalist community, north and south, wouldnt have been magnanimous enough to repsect that. True or not, I dont know?
As such, the IRFU may as well revert to the Republic's anthem only, home and away. The team isnt one I identify with any longer. Continuing with Ireland's Call serves no purpose. The damage has been done.
While I have made my opinion clear about the correct form of action, the seems to be a certain element in Northern Ireland that see fit to be offended by motivations that are not necessarily there. As for damage being done over one incident I think you are being a tad prickly if you say the situation is irredeemable. Anyhow the flow from Connolly Station at the All-Black game suggests not everyone in Da'North shares your outlook.
/Jim.
Quote from: J70 on November 20, 2008, 01:21:58 PM
Quote from: iluvni on November 20, 2008, 12:36:30 PM
I must say, Irelands Call is truly woeful...not to mention the bit about 'answering our country's call'. What country? :-\
Since, at Ravenhill, the IRFU went back on the long standing convention of playing the host nation anthem, Ireland rugby team no longer represents us all, from all traditions. It represents only one political outlook on the island. The Unionist opinion isnt deemed worthy of respect by the iRFU and it was clearly felt that the Nationalist community, north and south, wouldnt have been magnanimous enough to repsect that. True or not, I dont know?
As such, the IRFU may as well revert to the Republic's anthem only, home and away. The team isnt one I identify with any longer. Continuing with Ireland's Call serves no purpose. The damage has been done.
You have to laugh. On the one hand you have the idiots who cannot see past the end of their own nose and accept that the IRFU's use of Ireland's Call, which in itself may not be a great anthem, is a noble effort to include the significant proportion of the island who are unionist and on the other, you have the likes of this gentleman, who completely ignores the spirit of the IRFU's clumsy efforts and throws the baby out with the bathwater because GSTQ wasn't played.
I have no problem with Ireland's Call because I can see the spirit in which it is intended. However I think it would have been ridiculous to have an Irish rugby team stand for GSTQ which is already the anthem for the England rugby team. Ireland's Call isn't perfect but it's just about the best compromise we have unless someone can come up with something better.
The IRFU are in an awkward position being in charge of rugby on the whole island when you have one group of staunch unionists who don't think we should be playing Amhrán na bhFiann at all even in Dublin and one group who think we should be playing nothing but Amhrán na bhFiann both home and away.
Me, I still can't believe that Croke Park was opened up to foreign games.
Danny Boy / Londonderry Air?
Quote from: ziggysego on November 20, 2008, 01:41:43 PM
Danny Boy / Londonderry Air?
Poxy song . Its more yank than Irish at this stage.
Irelands Call is a horrible song,
However Amhrán na bhFiann is not the national anthem of a good proportion of our fans,alot of those coming from North of the border.
i dont think it should be played at any Ireland games.
If we turned it around and all Rugby games were staged in Belfast, with GSTQ for home games and Irelands call for away games,
Us down South and Nationalists wouldnt be at all pleased,
a Bit of common courteousy is needed.
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on November 20, 2008, 03:13:20 PM
.
If we turned it around and all Rugby games were staged in Belfast, with GSTQ for home games and Irelands call for away games,
Us down South and Nationalists wouldnt be at all pleased,
That is supposed to happen, but when they played a game in Ravenhill last year the IRFU renaged on it, driving the DUP nuts
I think the best solution is to play no anthem. Then no one can be offended.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 20, 2008, 03:51:12 PM
I think the best solution is to play no anthem. Then no one can be offended.
or just everyone will be offended, either way it works ;)
or perhaps a totally neutral song that has nothing to do with Ireland, perhaps some Conway Twitty,
(http://www.morethings.com/music/conway_twitty/hee_haw126-1974/never_been_this_far1974hee_haw10.jpg)
Quote from: thejuice on November 20, 2008, 03:58:53 PM
or perhaps a totally neutral song that has nothing to do with Ireland
What about this song thejuice? http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=AZkO5oI_z0Y (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=AZkO5oI_z0Y)
Quote from: J70 on November 20, 2008, 01:21:58 PM
You have to laugh. On the one hand you have the idiots who cannot see past the end of their own nose and accept that the IRFU's use of Ireland's Call, which in itself may not be a great anthem, is a noble effort to include the significant proportion of the island who are unionist and on the other, you have the likes of this gentleman, who completely ignores the spirit of the IRFU's clumsy efforts and throws the baby out with the bathwater because GSTQ wasn't played.
Ireland's call was never composed as a compromise for unionist inclusion. Ireland's call was composed to give the IRFU's Ireland rugby team an anthem to represent them at away matches which they never had. The World Cup meant the Ireland team was the only team without an anthem.
The recent policy (new in 2007) to have Ireland's Call at all games but accompanied by the Soldiers Song when playing in the Republic of Ireland is simply a sop to nationalists / republicans and actually is a new exclusion and insult to unionists since the policy is a new one. The republican/nationalist dominated IRFU showed their incompetence in handling the political realities of their sporting jurisdiction covering two states by clumsily labeling any Ireland matches played in Northern Ireland to be away matches and therefore not in Ireland :-\
The IRFU is basically 4 provinces covering 2 jurisdictions.
Ulster Rugby jurisdiction is 9 counties.
IRFU policy is defined by its collective decision to continue playing ANbF before internationals played in the jurisdiction of the Republic.
There is no policy defined that they play GSTQ if a home game was played in another jurisdiction other than the republic.
They may have fecked up if they stated Ravenhill was an away venue. Sounds very insulting to Ulster Rugby.
But Ravenhill is in another jurisdiction.
The IRFU could have just simply stated their policy decision that if a game was played in another jurisdiction, then Irelands Call is the only song to be played.
On the general issue, it is up to the IRFU to determine what songs if any at all be played before a game.
Nobody cares too much what the Hockey and Cricket teams get up to before a game.
Naturally it would appear that the IRFU is dominated by a majority viewpoint which holds to the playing of AnbF at Lansdowne.
There is no policy adopted that GSTQ be played anywhere before IRFU internationals on behalf of the Ireland team
I dont know whats wrong with you boys, Irelands call is a cracker.
You've been out in the sun too long Puck
Quote from: TORGAEL on November 20, 2008, 08:14:10 AM
So anyone who gives an opinion on something that differs from your opinion is an idiot then ?
It's not an opinion, the border exists.
Live with it. ::)
PS Jim Murphy, that is my take on it too - your second option would be my preference out of the three.
That said, I would prefer your hidden fourth option; two teams.
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 04:47:33 PM
Naturally it would appear that the IRFU is dominated by a majority viewpoint which holds to the playing of AnbF at Lansdowne.
There is no policy adopted that GSTQ be played anywhere before IRFU internationals on behalf of the Ireland team
The way you put that is misleading. The new policy is now a direct snub to the National Anthem of a jurisdiction within the IRFU ie NI, for Political reasons of those from the other jurisdiction. The IRFU made a complete balls of trying to implement this ridiculous new policy which made a mockery of an agreement on the policy which for 50 years was agreed. Now it's simply a case of 'Your's is out of bounds as we find it offensive, but even though you find our's offensive, f**k ye'. Not good for Irish rugby and since 2007 I now find myself sitting down when the Soldier Song is played at games in Dublin. I wouldn't respect that song on these occasions when previously I have stood for the song.
QuoteNot good for Irish rugby and since 2007 I now find myself sitting down when the Soldier Song is played at games in Dublin. I wouldn't respect that song on these occasions when previously I have stood for the song.
I feel sorry for you.
Stupid songs played at football matches - as if we didn't have enough to divide us.
Quote from: Puckoon on November 20, 2008, 05:16:35 PM
I dont know whats wrong with you boys, Irelands call is a cracker.
its definitely grown on me, quite like it now...
THe unionists are use to singing along to another country's national anthem at their soccer matches, why can't they sing along to, what they preceive, is another country's national anthem at rugby games? ???
Quote from: Roger on November 20, 2008, 04:23:48 PM
Quote from: J70 on November 20, 2008, 01:21:58 PM
You have to laugh. On the one hand you have the idiots who cannot see past the end of their own nose and accept that the IRFU's use of Ireland's Call, which in itself may not be a great anthem, is a noble effort to include the significant proportion of the island who are unionist and on the other, you have the likes of this gentleman, who completely ignores the spirit of the IRFU's clumsy efforts and throws the baby out with the bathwater because GSTQ wasn't played.
Ireland's call was never composed as a compromise for unionist inclusion. Ireland's call was composed to give the IRFU's Ireland rugby team an anthem to represent them at away matches which they never had. The World Cup meant the Ireland team was the only team without an anthem.
The recent policy (new in 2007) to have Ireland's Call at all games but accompanied by the Soldiers Song when playing in the Republic of Ireland is simply a sop to nationalists / republicans and actually is a new exclusion and insult to unionists since the policy is a new one. The republican/nationalist dominated IRFU showed their incompetence in handling the political realities of their sporting jurisdiction covering two states by clumsily labeling any Ireland matches played in Northern Ireland to be away matches and therefore not in Ireland :-\
Whatever about the origins of the song, it is an acceptable compromise until someone comes up with something better. And personally I think that if they are going to play A na bF in games in the Republic because it is the national anthem there, then they should do the same with GSTQ at Ravenhill. The superior option is to just leave it at Ireland's Call everywhere however. That way, no one is happy, but no one is getting slighted either. Its like trying to please a bunch of children.
Quote from: Roger on November 20, 2008, 06:02:09 PM
The way you put that is misleading. The new policy is now a direct snub to the National Anthem of a jurisdiction within the IRFU ie NI, for Political reasons of those from the other jurisdiction. The IRFU made a complete balls of trying to implement this ridiculous new policy which made a mockery of an agreement on the policy which for 50 years was agreed. Now it's simply a case of 'Your's is out of bounds as we find it offensive, but even though you find our's offensive, f**k ye'. Not good for Irish rugby and since 2007 I now find myself sitting down when the Soldier Song is played at games in Dublin. I wouldn't respect that song on these occasions when previously I have stood for the song.
I assume the reps of the 4 federations in the IRFU sat down and worked out a policy for the playing of AnbF and voted on it according to the constitution of the IRFU. I assume that nothing is immune to change.
So if they made a balls of it, at least they did it constitutionally and with the full complicity of Ulster Rugby.
Quotewhich made a mockery of an agreement on the policy which for 50 years was agreed
What sense do you make out of this story around the "gentlemans agreement" that you refer to?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/feb/27/comment.gdnsport3 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/feb/27/comment.gdnsport3)
I understand from that article, the agreement was (after a big stand off by the Southern contingent) the team in 1954 would stand for the Ulster salute, the abbreviated version of GSTQ, just that once and in return for that 15 seconds of respect - the IRFU would never again play at Ravenhill.
Up until the Italy game it looks like that has been the case.
Irish rugby isn't exactly a hotbed of republicanism it has no problem with respect for Ulster Unionists but the limit appears to be drawn at standing straight for GSTQ.
From reading the comments on that article, I've found a new admiration for the people of Ukraine. Apparently the first line of their anthem is "Ukraine is not dead yet".
Rousing stuff.
J70 you are saying that it is an acceptable compromise, we'll there are a lot of lads on here that will tell you differently myself included. It is not like trying to please a bunch of children either because the lads that are against this have genuine concerns over the issue.
one of the lads have already posted saying about the inclusivity of the whole issue surrounding the anthems. If it is supposed to be inclusive of all how is it that they play both anthems at home and they only play Irelands call at away games. Now they have moved from playing A NA B both home and away to introducing a new song for home with A Na B and just playing Irelands call away. So tell me what compromise is in that for the Irish people that had no objections to start with.??
It Is very clear the IRFU is supposed to be an all Ireland body. Knowing from the onset that the anthem was A Na B when they became an All Ireland body then they should have objected at this stage. But to suddenly crack the whips some years down the line and the IRFU to jump for them is totally wrong. You can't have everything your own way. If certain Ulster players had problems with the Anthem then they are clearly not Irish and shouldn't be playing for Ireland. Irish people will stand for their national Anthem without any objections. If they are claiming to be British or any other nationality then that is entirely up to their own personal choice. However a smaller section of the Irish rugby team should not be allowed to hold the rest to ransom. In truth it is another example of politics wining over sport.
It's an amazing world where people and politicians can accommodate their political beliefs in an agreed compromise to facilitate working together but it's unacceptable to some to move an inch on which stupid song we have to have played before a match.
Quote from: Hardy on November 21, 2008, 10:15:40 AM
It's an amazing world where people and politicians can accommodate their political beliefs in an agreed compromise to facilitate working together but it's unacceptable to some to move an inch on which stupid song we have to have played before a match.
I agree, I wasnt joking when I suggested Conway Twitty.
Winsamsoon I can see were your coming from but can you not see the issue the unionists might have.
I mean which would you rather just stick with IC and have a full Ireland Team or break the team up into two parts and and each play what ever they wanted?
While IC isn't ideal it's still better than the second option.
The thing that bugs me is if the Ulster players don't want the Irish anthem and want Ireland call why are they there in the first place, assuming they have British passports why would they want to play for a foreign country. When our anthem's playing i get really fired up and the goose bumps appear sometimes the odd tear in my eyes and wana jump from the stands and rip somebody's neck out...(even though i couldn't beat Casey's drum...lol) so what's going thru the heads of the Ulster players during the anthem...???
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 11:28:48 PM
I assume the reps of the 4 federations in the IRFU sat down and worked out a policy for the playing of AnbF and voted on it according to the constitution of the IRFU. I assume that nothing is immune to change.
So if they made a balls of it, at least they did it constitutionally and with the full complicity of Ulster Rugby.
I think that the Ulster Branch didn't consider the view of players and supporters and were blinded by the Ulster Branch being given all the revenue from the Italy game with a condition that Ireland's Call was the only anthem. The Ulster branch represents the game in two states / Political jurisdictions and it would seem a reasonable position. Most people in Northern Ireland involved in the sport would also be of the opinion that a single jurisdiction Anthem to represent both jurisdictions is not on. However, by then playing the SS at the next game was just wrong and I don't think the IRFU handled this properly at all. Just because the democratically elected representatives in IRFU overlooked this issue and have made a mistake doesn't mean it is right.
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 11:28:48 PM
What sense do you make out of this story around the "gentlemans agreement" that you refer to?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/feb/27/comment.gdnsport3 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/feb/27/comment.gdnsport3)
I understand from that article, the agreement was (after a big stand off by the Southern contingent) the team in 1954 would stand for the Ulster salute, the abbreviated version of GSTQ, just that once and in return for that 15 seconds of respect - the IRFU would never again play at Ravenhill.
Up until the Italy game it looks like that has been the case.
The agreement was pretty much well known and the conventional policy by the IRFU. The IRFU would play the Anthem of the relevant jurisdiction when games were played in Ireland. They did this knowing that Belfast wasn't planned to ever hold games again as Lansdowne Road was being developed and was considerably bigger than Ravenhill. Northern Irish people in the sport were happy enough with the situation as the sport avoids Politics and it was a reasonable policy about relatively small issue even if not perfect and slightly annoying. Players and supporters accepted this for years and respected the SS, myself included. I am involved in the game and know a number of former and a number of my family represented Ireland too. They are not happy with the current situation and feel they were conned and it is now considered offensive to think the Ireland team has a Political anthem not just unrepresentative but unacceptable. No more or less so than GSTQ representing the Ireland team.
Quote from: Main Street on November 20, 2008, 11:28:48 PMIrish rugby isn't exactly a hotbed of republicanism it has no problem with respect for Ulster Unionists but the limit appears to be drawn at standing straight for GSTQ.
Then you would understand the reason why the limits for Unionists are standing straight for the SS. The respect was always there within the sport but it has been seriously tarnished by this Politcally arrogant and offensive new policy. Those that say it is Ireland and Ireland's Anthem is the SS are just showing their ignorance about the history of Ireland and the history of the sport in Ireland. These views and this policy is not good for Irish rugby. If rugby isn't your thing then no worries. However, the ironic thing about it is that it simply reinforces the border and disrespect for the Republic of Ireland by Unionists in one of the few reasons that all communities and backgrounds come together in a common purpose for Ireland as a single identity. As it is, for Unionism it is probably more dangerous if the IRFU did the right thing. To achieve the sentiments of the SS and that Political ethos it's going to take Unionist conversion and this sets back that by some way.
Good to have you back Roger and it would appear that you haven't made the bard of dunclug's error by hiding your email.
My view is Amhran na bhFiann and the tricolour should not be used at International rugby matches if there are concerns about whether or not it represents everyone involved in rugby in Ireland.
However I would like to take Roger up on a couple of points (one of which Main Street has already done).
Quote from: Roger on November 21, 2008, 11:42:04 AM
Then you would understand the reason why the limits for Unionists are standing straight for the SS. The respect was always there within the sport but it has been seriously tarnished by this Politcally arrogant and offensive new policy. Those that say it is Ireland and Ireland's Anthem is the SS are just showing their ignorance about the history of Ireland and the history of the sport in Ireland. These views and this policy is not good for Irish rugby. If rugby isn't your thing then no worries. However, the ironic thing about it is that it simply reinforces the border and disrespect for the Republic of Ireland by Unionists in one of the few reasons that all communities and backgrounds come together in a common purpose for Ireland as a single identity. As it is, for Unionism it is probably more dangerous if the IRFU did the right thing. To achieve the sentiments of the SS and that Political ethos it's going to take Unionist conversion and this sets back that by some way.
It isn't a new policy. The policy of not playing the English National Anthem at Ravenhill has been policy, as MS highlighted in the Guardian piece, since 1954. Why you choose to ignore this salient point, yet claim expertise in matters rugby concerns me. Now, before you start I have argued in the past that if the policy was AnabhF in the free state and GSTQ at Ravenhill, then GSTQ should have been played at the Italy match.
Secondly,
Quote from: Roger on November 21, 2008, 11:42:04 AM
The agreement was pretty much well known and the conventional policy by the IRFU. The IRFU would play the Anthem of the relevant jurisdiction when games were played in Ireland. They did this knowing that Belfast wasn't planned to ever hold games again as Lansdowne Road was being developed and was considerably bigger than Ravenhill. Northern Irish people in the sport were happy enough with the situation as the sport avoids Politics and it was a reasonable policy about relatively small issue even if not perfect and slightly annoying. Players and supporters accepted this for years and respected the SS, myself included. I am involved in the game and know a number of former and a number of my family represented Ireland too. They are not happy with the current situation and feel they were conned and it is now considered offensive to think the Ireland team has a Political anthem not just unrepresentative but unacceptable. No more or less so than GSTQ representing the Ireland team.
No you didn't, you sat on your big fat hole when it was being played. And then ran off to owc to boast about it.
On a tangentially related point, did you belt out the divisive, political English anthem at Windsor the other night?
"Players and supporters accepted this for years and respected the SS, myself included."
Do you sing the oppositions anthem when Ireland played England in Dublin?
Quote from: Roger on November 21, 2008, 11:42:04 AM
I think that the Ulster Branch didn't consider the view of players and supporters and were blinded by the Ulster Branch being given all the revenue from the Italy game with a condition that Ireland's Call was the only anthem. The Ulster branch represents the game in two states / Political jurisdictions and it would seem a reasonable position. Most people in Northern Ireland involved in the sport would also be of the opinion that a single jurisdiction Anthem to represent both jurisdictions is not on. However, by then playing the SS at the next game was just wrong and I don't think the IRFU handled this properly at all. Just because the democratically elected representatives in IRFU overlooked this issue and have made a mistake doesn't mean it is right.
It would appear to me that the condition that Ireland's Call be the only anthem used after Ravenhill was more of a belief, not based on the IRFU board meeting decisions.
The rest of what you write makes some sense.
Down through the years, Rugby has been an important sport in Ulster and an indivisible component of Irish Rugby.
The highest honour is being selected to play for your federation's representative team and is a cause of celebration for the player, the club and the supporters. This anthem issue niggles, is divisive and needs to be resolved.
.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 21, 2008, 10:00:11 AM
Now they have moved from playing A NA B both home and away to introducing a new song for home
The Ireland rugby team has NEVER used A NA B for away games. Prior to the introduction of Ireland's Call, Ireland didn't have an anthem for away games. The home team's anthem was played, and that was it (although apparently there was some embarassment at the 1987 world cup when the Rose of Tralee was played :)
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 21, 2008, 10:00:11 AM
Knowing from the onset that the anthem was A Na B when they became an All Ireland body then they should have objected at this stage.
The IRFU was founded in 1879 so pre-dates both partition and A Na B.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 21, 2008, 12:03:22 PMIt isn't a new policy. The policy of not playing the English National Anthem at Ravenhill has been policy, as MS highlighted in the Guardian piece, since 1954. Why you choose to ignore this salient point, yet claim expertise in matters rugby concerns me. Now, before you start I have argued in the past that if the policy was AnabhF in the free state and GSTQ at Ravenhill, then GSTQ should have been played at the Italy match.
I believe it to be a new policy. If it isn't new then following the hushed up 'mutiny' that was threatened, the subsequent clandestine agreement for 50 odd years wasn't communicated properly and many people have been misled including players themselves. My father and a few of his cousins played for Ireland and they thought it was the policy was "AnabhF in the free state and GSTQ at Ravenhill" even though they knew fine well it was extremely unlikely that Ireland would ever play in Northern Ireland again due to stadium capacity. This made the policy less unpalatable but accepted if a strange quirk, as it really wasn't the biggest issue of the day. My father was at Croke Park on Saturday for the All Black's game and he stood for the SS but doesn't like it. He simply said "you shouldn't disrespect a foreign anthem especially when you're in a foreign country". Not a very inclusive attitude but it simply shows that someone who has been committed to Irish rugby over a life time is simply alienated and disrespected by this policy. The SS does not represent the island of Ireland and is the Political anthem of only one of the jurisdictions of the Ireland team. IMO this is a problem for the sport.
Whatever was the policy the current policy is clearly wrong and the IRFU have clumsily dealt with it. Belfast is an away match? FFS the problem is glaring.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 21, 2008, 12:03:22 PMNo you didn't, you sat on your big fat hole when it was being played. And then ran off to owc to boast about it.
I have stood for the SS since about 1976 when I first started my annual trips to Dublin, but since 2007 I have either left the stadium whilst the SS has been played or if that has not been possible I have sat down. I stated that earlier in this thread too. I don't run off to owc to boast, but it is the only board I post on the internet (except this which I would hardly say I was a regular). If you consider this a boast then that's up to you, but it is certainly a comment that I never thought I would have to make. Since you are clearly familiar with what I post on the OWC Forum, setting aside your disturbing familiarity with my arse, you will know that I am a strong supporter of Irish rugby and the success of a single representative team for the whole of the island of Ireland regardless of what seems to be the popular view of the Ireland rugby team on that forum.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 21, 2008, 12:03:22 PMOn a tangentially related point, did you belt out the divisive, political English anthem at Windsor the other night?
I actually made it into Windsor the other night for the first time in ages and I sang the National Anthem.
Basically the IRFU could have carried on with the anthem charade but the mistake they made was scheduling an international at Ravenhill.
Quote from: mikerob on November 21, 2008, 01:08:16 PM
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 21, 2008, 10:00:11 AM
Now they have moved from playing A NA B both home and away to introducing a new song for home
The Ireland rugby team has NEVER used A NA B for away games. Prior to the introduction of Ireland's Call, Ireland didn't have an anthem for away games. The home team's anthem was played, and that was it (although apparently there was some embarassment at the 1987 world cup when the Rose of Tralee was played :)
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 21, 2008, 10:00:11 AM
Knowing from the onset that the anthem was A Na B when they became an All Ireland body then they should have objected at this stage.
The IRFU was founded in 1879 so pre-dates both partition and A Na B.
That consistently falls on deaf ears as reality only gets in the way of Political desire, aspiration and bigotry. Didn't you know that Ireland's anthem is ANAB and if people don't like that, they should feck aff back to England? ::)
Quote from: Main Street on November 21, 2008, 12:32:50 PM
It would appear to me that the condition that Ireland's Call be the only anthem used after Ravenhill was more of a belief, not based on the IRFU board meeting decisions.
I'm not sure I get what you are saying. For clarification of my view, the view when Ravenhill was decided for the venue in 2007 there was a new policy introduced that clearly stated that IC at all games and at 'home' matches, the SS would be played too.
Quote from: Main Street on November 21, 2008, 12:32:50 PM
Down through the years, Rugby has been an important sport in Ulster and an indivisible component of Irish Rugby.
In recent times Ulster has been weaker than two of the other Irish provinces but it was definitely not like that previously. The beauty of rugby was that Politics was considered taboo and it was never a problem in Ulster which actually spans two Political jurisdictions too.
Quote from: Main Street on November 21, 2008, 12:32:50 PM
This anthem issue niggles, is divisive and needs to be resolved.
Agree.
Quote from: Main Street on November 21, 2008, 01:14:14 PM
Basically the IRFU could have carried on with the anthem charade but the mistake they made was scheduling an international at Ravenhill.
That's my view. They brought in a new policy because Thomand and Lansdowne were unavailable and due to the rental price for Croke the Italy fixture would have made a loss. Therefore Ravenhill was the only option but it stirred up a hornets nest and exposed this ridiculous situation. It was always considered to be a bit wonky anyway as the flag issue in Dublin is ludicrous too with the Tricolour flag and an Ulster Branch flag being flown side by side. Things like this highlight the division and by showing the two immiscible views of Irishness reinforces the border where rugby actually previously broke down any barriers.
Quote from: An Fear Rua on November 21, 2008, 12:12:37 PM
Do you sing the oppositions anthem when Ireland played England in Dublin?
I do. I also sing Scotland's too but don't know the French or Welsh ones. If you want proper singing then nowhere in the world beats Cardiff, and whilst the Garda band is actually excellent entertainment pre-match nothing compares to massed choirs in Wales. Twickenham is rubbish and to be avoided, whilst Edinburgh I find dull ;D
Did anyone hear theToday Gift Grub version of Irelands Call - a weekly phone conversation to see what excuse Steven Ireland has for not playing for his country.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 21, 2008, 10:00:11 AM
J70 you are saying that it is an acceptable compromise, we'll there are a lot of lads on here that will tell you differently myself included. It is not like trying to please a bunch of children either because the lads that are against this have genuine concerns over the issue.
one of the lads have already posted saying about the inclusivity of the whole issue surrounding the anthems. If it is supposed to be inclusive of all how is it that they play both anthems at home and they only play Irelands call at away games. Now they have moved from playing A NA B both home and away to introducing a new song for home with A Na B and just playing Irelands call away. So tell me what compromise is in that for the Irish people that had no objections to start with.??
It Is very clear the IRFU is supposed to be an all Ireland body. Knowing from the onset that the anthem was A Na B when they became an All Ireland body then they should have objected at this stage. But to suddenly crack the whips some years down the line and the IRFU to jump for them is totally wrong. You can't have everything your own way. If certain Ulster players had problems with the Anthem then they are clearly not Irish and shouldn't be playing for Ireland. Irish people will stand for their national Anthem without any objections. If they are claiming to be British or any other nationality then that is entirely up to their own personal choice. However a smaller section of the Irish rugby team should not be allowed to hold the rest to ransom. In truth it is another example of politics wining over sport.
That is nonsense. The team represents the island of Ireland, not the people of the nationalist tradition. That the IRFU belatedly decided to address this does not mean that it is the wrong thing to do.
Quote from: Roger on November 21, 2008, 01:14:33 PM
That consistently falls on deaf ears as reality only gets in the way of Political desire, aspiration and bigotry. Didn't you know that Ireland's anthem is ANAB and if people don't like that, they should feck aff back to England? ::)
That would appear to the view of some here.
Quote from: Roger on November 21, 2008, 01:31:12 PM
Quote from: An Fear Rua on November 21, 2008, 12:12:37 PM
Do you sing the oppositions anthem when Ireland played England in Dublin?
I do. I also sing Scotland's too but don't know the French or Welsh ones. If you want proper singing then nowhere in the world beats Cardiff, and whilst the Garda band is actually excellent entertainment pre-match nothing compares to massed choirs in Wales. Twickenham is rubbish and to be avoided, whilst Edinburgh I find dull ;D
Says so much about your 'support'
Quote from: An Fear Rua on November 21, 2008, 01:43:24 PM
Says so much about your 'support'
I'm not sure what that means but I'll take it as a compliment ;)
Quote from: Roger on November 21, 2008, 01:47:54 PM
Quote from: An Fear Rua on November 21, 2008, 01:43:24 PM
Says so much about your 'support'
I'm not sure what that means but I'll take it as a compliment ;)
Its far from it believe me
Roger, thanks for taking your time to compose considered responses to the questions posed on this thread, but I genuinely find it difficult how you can have issues with the IRFU policy re. flags and anthems (legitimate ones I might add), yet be blissfully unaware that there are equally legitimate concerns about the IFA policy re. flags and anthems. Therefore, I find your position and hence your arguments to be hypocritical.
The arse thing was a lucky guess.
With all that has been said i don't see the point then in claiming that the IRFU are an all Ireland body. They simply are not nor do they share the aspirations to be. It is quiet clear that in order to operate on an All Ireland basis one must firstly be Irish. Now Ireland has it's culture, Tradition amongst many things. To say on one hand that you want to be part of this in the name of sport but on the other hand then say but i want to change a,b and c is a complete farce. If it is a country that you represent then that country should be united at least in sporting terms . It is very clear that there is no unification on the issue of the anthem so the only other alternative is to stand back and call a spade a spade. You cannot possibly stand in Croke park if Ireland were playing England, as an Ireland supporter, sit down for the A NaB and then sing the Queen. It is silly and makes no sense at all. Altogether it is a laughable situation.
Quote from: An Fear Rua on November 21, 2008, 01:51:47 PM
Quote from: Roger on November 21, 2008, 01:47:54 PM
Quote from: An Fear Rua on November 21, 2008, 01:43:24 PM
Says so much about your 'support'
I'm not sure what that means but I'll take it as a compliment ;)
Its far from it believe me
I like joining in on singing the Scottish, French and Italian anthems, I dont think it lessens my support for the Irish team. Support matters mostly between the kick-off and the final whistle anyway. The preliminaries are just bells and whistles.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 21, 2008, 02:07:39 PM
Roger, thanks for taking your time to compose considered responses to the questions posed on this thread, but I genuinely find it difficult how you can have issues with the IRFU policy re. flags and anthems (legitimate ones I might add), yet be blissfully unaware that there are equally legitimate concerns about the IFA policy re. flags and anthems. Therefore, I find your position and hence your arguments to be hypocritical.
Ireland rugby is a sporting Union covering two Political jurisdictions with two different Anthems.
NI football is a based on a region of the UK which is allowed 4 Associations for historical and FIFA beneficial reasons. The UK National Anthem is GSTQ and to date Northern Ireland does not have any other recognised nor agreed regionally distinctive anthem in the way that the Scots and Welsh currently do. Therefore the official Anthem of Northern IReland is GSTQ, the same way that the SS is the official National Anthem of the Republic of Ireland.
There is not hypocritical position on this. The ROI football team rightly play the SS and NI rightly play GSTQ. When the two jurisdictions come together and play in a sporting union like they do in rugby they should not play the Political anthem of one region only. There could be sound reason to advocate both anthems to be played at Ireland matches but that would again cause division, so my preferred option is for the IRFU to play a sporting anthem only. Currently the agreed and conventional anthem is Ireland's Call whether one actually likes the tune / words is a different issue.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 21, 2008, 02:11:51 PM
With all that has been said i don't see the point then in claiming that the IRFU are an all Ireland body. They simply are not nor do they share the aspirations to be. It is quiet clear that in order to operate on an All Ireland basis one must firstly be Irish. Now Ireland has it's culture, Tradition amongst many things. To say on one hand that you want to be part of this in the name of sport but on the other hand then say but i want to change a,b and c is a complete farce. If it is a country that you represent then that country should be united at least in sporting terms . It is very clear that there is no unification on the issue of the anthem so the only other alternative is to stand back and call a spade a spade. You cannot possibly stand in Croke park if Ireland were playing England, as an Ireland supporter, sit down for the A NaB and then sing the Queen. It is silly and makes no sense at all. Altogether it is a laughable situation.
Unfortunately for rugby there are so many others like you, but it's attitudes like yours' that are based on denial or ignorance or Political propaganda but one thing for sure is they are guaranteed to simply advance Unionism in what would normally yet unusually be a very all-island context.
no anthems at any International match, that will keep everyone happy, in the soccer games they are always booed. while i'm of the thought that N.Ireland needs its own, could nifan explain to me why they use it GSTQ and wales or scotland dont? and what happened at windsor when Norn Iron played england, did they play it twice? was it booed when the first one came on by away fans and when the second one came on was it booed by the home fans. the the players sing it twice? all very amusing/confusing ;)
Quote from: milltown row on November 21, 2008, 02:39:21 PM
no anthems at any International match, that will keep everyone happy, in the soccer games they are always booed.
Opposition anthems are nearly always respected and never booed at Northern Ireland matches. The SS isn't played there in the interests of peace, similiarly GSTQ isn't played at Lansdowne when NI play the ROI. The only disrespect I've ever heard for an anthem was the Welsh anthem in Cardiff because they booed GSTQ first. Childish response I know, but there was complete surprise and anger by the Welsh reaction to our National Anthem.
Quote from: milltown row on November 21, 2008, 02:39:21 PM
no anthems at any International match, that will keep everyone happy, in the soccer games they are always booed. while i'm of the thought that N.Ireland needs its own, could nifan explain to me why they use it GSTQ and wales or scotland dont? and what happened at windsor when Norn Iron played england, did they play it twice? was it booed when the first one came on by away fans and when the second one came on was it booed by the home fans. the the players sing it twice? all very amusing/confusing ;)
I very rarely if ever hear opposition anthems booed at international matches
Quote from: Roger on November 21, 2008, 02:21:05 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 21, 2008, 02:07:39 PM
Roger, thanks for taking your time to compose considered responses to the questions posed on this thread, but I genuinely find it difficult how you can have issues with the IRFU policy re. flags and anthems (legitimate ones I might add), yet be blissfully unaware that there are equally legitimate concerns about the IFA policy re. flags and anthems. Therefore, I find your position and hence your arguments to be hypocritical.
Ireland rugby is a sporting Union covering two Political jurisdictions with two different Anthems.
NI football is a based on a region of the UK which is allowed 4 Associations for historical and FIFA beneficial reasons. The UK National Anthem is GSTQ and to date Northern Ireland does not have any other recognised nor agreed regionally distinctive anthem in the way that the Scots and Welsh currently do. Therefore the official Anthem of Northern IReland is GSTQ, the same way that the SS is the official National Anthem of the Republic of Ireland.
There is not hypocritical position on this. The ROI football team rightly play the SS and NI rightly play GSTQ. When the two jurisdictions come together and play in a sporting union like they do in rugby they should not play the Political anthem of one region only. There could be sound reason to advocate both anthems to be played at Ireland matches but that would again cause division, so my preferred option is for the IRFU to play a sporting anthem only. Currently the agreed and conventional anthem is Ireland's Call whether one actually likes the tune / words is a different issue.
Yes, your hands are tied as it were. There is no point in continuing this debate.
You genuinely appear to have no idea.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 21, 2008, 02:58:21 PM
Yes, your hands are tied as it were. There is no point in continuing this debate.
You genuinely appear to have no idea.
We can agree to disagree on opinion but I haven't written much opinion except what I think should be the situation at an IRFU game. Regarding what I wrote about IFA and FAI games I see no inaccurate information. To justify calling me clueless you should highlight any inaccuracies otherwise you are just bailing out with a cheap shot.
so why do N.Ireland play GSTQ? Wales and Scotland have their own. why not Norn Iron
no answers yet
Quote from: milltown row on November 21, 2008, 03:16:56 PM
so why do N.Ireland play GSTQ? Wales and Scotland have their own. why not Norn Iron
no answers yet
Wales and Scotland decided to change from GSTQ to a regionally distinctive Anthem even though their official National Anthem is GSTQ. I believe that to be wholly accurate.
I presume it was an issue for the Welsh and Scottish Associations, they discussed and agreed to change it to their current regionally distinctive ones. To date the IFA has not done so to the best of my understanding, and this is because it hasn't been an issue in Northern Ireland. That said in recent years it was debated on OWC and in a Football For All report a few years back but there is no consensus opinion on it from what I can see. Now that is opinion, so you can agree / disagree with that.
SS2
I don't see Roger's position on AnbF at Rugby Internationals as being hypocritical.
There is a determined belligerence about maintaining British symbols as being the official symbols of the NI state in a divided community, imo that is a separate discussion. Though you could interpret an irony.
Imo the IRFU's policy encourages partisanship over the anthems on both side sides of the border and gives more fuel to the perceived threats to one's nationality that it would be lessened by compromising on these symbols. .
QuoteUnfortunately for rugby there are so many others like you, but it's attitudes like yours' that are based on denial or ignorance or Political propaganda but one thing for sure is they are guaranteed to simply advance Unionism in what would normally yet unusually be a very all-island context.
Ok so my attitude is based on poiltical propaganda. Tell me this then Roger what is it that makes the whole issue of flags and anthems devisive??? I will tell you the answer.It is politics my friend. So all our views are based on the stigma that our history has left, it is impossible to remain impartial. In NI and Ireland it is part of life. So my friend it is yet another case of the kettle calling the pot black as your own views are clearly tainted by political views and experiences like the rest of us.
It is always going to be very difficult and in many way impossible to bring Unionism and Nationalism together. Both Ideologies aspire to totally contrasting aims. This has filtered through to sport and in this case the issue of anthems. After all an anthem is something to be proud of and it should be sung with dignity by all that are involved in the team. simply because it is their country that they are playing for. So lets not try and say that you can step back from politics because it effects all within society. It is the stigma that we have came to live with. At it will always effect issues like this because we live on an Island that contains people at both ends of the political spectrum.
You speak about unionism but the fact that there is an all Ireland team itself contradicts and dillutes unionism. No one is trying to quash anyones identity but lets be honest there are things in society that cannot be changed overnight. Maybe in time it will change but it is too soon for further dillution of cultural identity. It is possible for two sets of people to live together but they don't have to share everything or see everything in the same vein. Why is society always obsessed with an inconclusiveness. Trying to bring everyone together so as it is seems to be ok. It only takes something as simple as a flag or song to spark the debate up again.
Quote from: Main Street on November 21, 2008, 03:37:48 PM
SS2
I don't see Roger's position on AnbF at Rugby Internationals as being hypocritical.
There is a determined belligerence about maintaining British symbols as being the official symbols of the NI state in a divided community, imo that is a separate discussion. Though you could interpret an irony.
Correct. However, for "determined beliigerence" I would put "proud tradition and cherished nationality" but you are right that is interpretation and opinion which is open to irony etc comments. To date I have not been hypocritical or inconsistent with my analysis.
Quote from: Main Street on November 21, 2008, 03:37:48 PMImo the IRFU's policy encourages partisanship over the anthems on both side sides of the border and gives more fuel to the perceived threats to one's nationality that it would be lessened by compromising on these symbols.
I don't perceive a threat, just an insult that doesn't need to happen and which flies in the face of good relations in rugby not just in Ireland but globally. If not you would find the British and Irish Lions playing as Britain and singing GSTQ and to hell with those from the Republic of Ireland who should lie down or feck aff back to the boglands. In rugby this sort of thing thankfully doesn't happen except in Ireland which is the exception in Ireland too rather than the rule.
I think rugby will probably get there eventually. It is not correct at the moment and the IRFU handling was offensive. However, those that crow about Ireland being only for their version of Irishness are insulting and rude and generally not really part of the sport. Iin my opinion the anthem isn't enough to through the toys out of the pram and not support the team but it is important and needs sorted. My club in Belfast used to have the Loyal Toast at its annual dinner. This is something that was an inherited tradition but had no real place in the club or in the sport. We decided not to have it anymore not to appease anyone but we didn't have it to ram down anyone's throat either in the first place either. We simply decided it didn't represent the club's members interests at a club dinner and it was better not to have. We still say Grace before the meal but eventually I imagine that tradition will end too if it's deemed inappropriate.
Quote from: Roger on November 21, 2008, 03:37:13 PM
Quote from: milltown row on November 21, 2008, 03:16:56 PM
so why do N.Ireland play GSTQ? Wales and Scotland have their own. why not Norn Iron
no answers yet
Wales and Scotland decided to change from GSTQ to a regionally distinctive Anthem even though their official National Anthem is GSTQ. I believe that to be wholly accurate.
I presume it was an issue for the Welsh and Scottish Associations, they discussed and agreed to change it to their current regionally distinctive ones. To date the IFA has not done so to the best of my understanding, and this is because it hasn't been an issue in Northern Ireland. That said in recent years it was debated on OWC and in a Football For All report a few years back but there is no consensus opinion on it from what I can see. Now that is opinion, so you can agree / disagree with that.
i'm not trying to catch you out but when was this? and back in the day, did they use GSTQ?
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 21, 2008, 02:11:51 PM
With all that has been said i don't see the point then in claiming that the IRFU are an all Ireland body. They simply are not nor do they share the aspirations to be. It is quiet clear that in order to operate on an All Ireland basis one must firstly be Irish. Now Ireland has it's culture, Tradition amongst many things. To say on one hand that you want to be part of this in the name of sport but on the other hand then say but i want to change a,b and c is a complete farce. If it is a country that you represent then that country should be united at least in sporting terms . It is very clear that there is no unification on the issue of the anthem so the only other alternative is to stand back and call a spade a spade. You cannot possibly stand in Croke park if Ireland were playing England, as an Ireland supporter, sit down for the A NaB and then sing the Queen. It is silly and makes no sense at all. Altogether it is a laughable situation.
Maybe I am missing something, but I cannot fathom how you do not (or refuse to) see that the Irish rugby team represents the geographical entity that is the island of Ireland, not the nationalist identity. It seems pretty clear-cut to me.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 21, 2008, 03:54:52 PM
Ok so my attitude is based on poiltical propaganda. Tell me this then Roger what is it that makes the whole issue of flags and anthems devisive??? I will tell you the answer.It is politics my friend. So all our views are based on the stigma that our history has left, it is impossible to remain impartial. In NI and Ireland it is part of life. So my friend it is yet another case of the kettle calling the pot black as your own views are clearly tainted by political views and experiences like the rest of us.
It is always going to be very difficult and in many way impossible to bring Unionism and Nationalism together. Both Ideologies aspire to totally contrasting aims. This has filtered through to sport and in this case the issue of anthems. After all an anthem is something to be proud of and it should be sung with dignity by all that are involved in the team. simply because it is their country that they are playing for. So lets not try and say that you can step back from politics because it effects all within society. It is the stigma that we have came to live with. At it will always effect issues like this because we live on an Island that contains people at both ends of the political spectrum.
You speak about unionism but the fact that there is an all Ireland team itself contradicts and dillutes unionism. No one is trying to quash anyones identity but lets be honest there are things in society that cannot be changed overnight. Maybe in time it will change but it is too soon for further dillution of cultural identity. It is possible for two sets of people to live together but they don't have to share everything or see everything in the same vein. Why is society always obsessed with an inconclusiveness. Trying to bring everyone together so as it is seems to be ok. It only takes something as simple as a flag or song to spark the debate up again.
Politics doesn't have any part to play in rugby in Ireland. Playing of one jurisdiction's Political Anthem and flying of one jurisdiction's flag brings Politics into the sport. The IRFU has an option. Play Ireland's Call and fly the IRFU / Combined Provinces flag. Why on earth do Politics have to play a part? They don't in any other part of the sport in Ireland except for Ireland matches.
Can I ask something? Do you have any involvement in rugby or what is your level of interest or understanding of the sport?
Quote from: milltown row on November 21, 2008, 04:05:16 PM
i'm not trying to catch you out but when was this? and back in the day, did they use GSTQ?
I don't know but AFAIK they used to just play the National Anthem. I think the same was in rugby too for Scotland anyway.
Giving the whole nonsense of anthems the respect it deserves:
(From Wiki) Swansea poet Nigel Jenkins wrote an English phonetic version of the first verse of the Welsh National Anthem for the benefit of English speakers, said to be largely inconspicuous in chorus as long as one doesn't smile:
My hen laid a haddock, one hand oiled a flea,
Glad farts and centurions threw dogs in the sea,
I could stew a hare here and brandish Dan's flan,
Don's ruddy bog's blocked up with sand.
Dad! Dad! Why don't you oil Auntie Glad?
Can whores appear in beer bottle pies,
O butter the hens as they fly!
It does have rhythm
I love the Welsh Anthem. Some Anthems are class before games, especially rugby, which seems to be a game naturally disposed to being a substitute for actual warfare, which is why I love the Haka.
I like the Marseillaise, Flower of Scotland and Land of our Fathers.
In non rugby terms, I also like Oh Canada, especially before Ice Hockey matches.
Quote from: milltown row on November 21, 2008, 04:05:16 PM
i'm not trying to catch you out but when was this? and back in the day, did they use GSTQ?
Certainly in the 1980s, the Scotland Rugby team used to have Scotland the Brave and GSTQ before their games. Nobody knows the words of Scotland the Brave and the Scots increasingly used to boo GSTQ. When it was Scotland v Wales, both sets of supporters booed GSTQ so loudly that you could hardly hear it. That got very embarassing for the SRU as Princess Anne goes to all their home games and the crowd were slagging off her ma. The SRU then decided (sometime in the 90s) to replace GSTQ and STB with Flower of Scotland which had become the team's de facto anthem.
So after all the meandering that has been done on this thread, can some answer me a simple question please?
Why does the Irish National Anthem not get treated with equality along side Ireland's Call? It obviously does not, since the latter is played at both home and away games, and the official Anthem of Ireland is dropped for away games?
Either play both, or play none.
Quote from: mikerob on November 21, 2008, 04:55:54 PM
Quote from: milltown row on November 21, 2008, 04:05:16 PM
i'm not trying to catch you out but when was this? and back in the day, did they use GSTQ?
Certainly in the 1980s, the Scotland Rugby team used to have Scotland the Brave and GSTQ before their games. Nobody knows the words of Scotland the Brave and the Scots increasingly used to boo GSTQ. When it was Scotland v Wales, both sets of supporters booed GSTQ so loudly that you could hardly hear it. That got very embarassing for the SRU as Princess Anne goes to all their home games and the crowd were slagging off her ma. The SRU then decided (sometime in the 90s) to replace GSTQ and STB with Flower of Scotland which had become the team's de facto anthem.
[/quot
thanks mikerob. was it the same for the soccer games? did the Welsh/Scottish do their own or GSTQ for internationals. dates again would be nice
QuoteNobody knows the words of Scotland the Brave
Come where the hands are clappin,
Come where the lips are flappin,
Come where the jocks are strappin
Knives to their legs.
Land of the blooming heather,
Land of the freezing weather,
Land of the ginger headers
And fried chocolate eggs.
Up flies ma kilt ho-ho;
See, see ma thighs aglow,
Varicose veins and the answer to the long-asked question ...
And so on.
Quote from: milltown row on November 21, 2008, 05:12:41 PM
thanks mikerob. was it the same for the soccer games? did the Welsh/Scottish do their own or GSTQ for internationals. dates again would be nice
I don't know - I'm not a soccer fan!
Quote from: balladmaker on November 21, 2008, 05:01:37 PM
Why does the Irish National Anthem not get treated with equality along side Ireland's Call?
Because it isn't equal. Like it or not, Irelands Call is used to represent the Irish Rugby Football Union in its entirety. A NA B doesn't do that.
Quote from: balladmaker on November 21, 2008, 05:01:37 PM
So after all the meandering that has been done on this thread, can some answer me a simple question please?
Why does the Irish National Anthem not get treated with equality along side Ireland's Call? It obviously does not, since the latter is played at both home and away games, and the official Anthem of Ireland is dropped for away games?
It is entirely your interpretation that not playing AnbF outside the jurisdiction of the Republic is evidence of a respect issue.
The IRFU policy does not imply more respect for one than the other but instead Irelands Call is deemed more appropriate outside the jurisdiction than AnbF to use as an anthem for the team.
It is the IRFU´s version of a compromise, attempting to address an acknowledgement that the game in Ireland has 2 strong traditions, (one more equal than the other)
If you followed the thread, the IRFU with their current policy actually offer more respect to the playing of AnbF than GSTQ.
At most, when the president attends, as she is very prone to do, it is a dignified mark of respect to play the presidential salute.
Other than that, there is little rational justification to continue with AnbF.
QuoteEither play both, or play none.
There are a third and fourth options.
Only play Irelands Call at all games home and away
Or only play another acceptable song at all games.
edit,
you may have been under the misapprehension that Irelands Call has something representative specific connection to the Unionist tradition
Quoteyou may have been under the misapprehension that Irelands Call has something representative specific connection to the Unionist tradition
No, not at all, and I think you would need to have a seriously bigoted mind to come to that conclusion. But what I do have a problem with is the dropping of the National Anthem at away games, and even more so, lame attempts at trying to excuse the fact as to why it should be dropped. ::)
Quote from: Rav67 on November 20, 2008, 01:18:20 AM
I'd rather have the anthem but Ireland's Call is a decent gesture to make to our unionist brethren
How magnanimous of you Rav
Quote from: balladmaker on November 22, 2008, 05:59:31 PM
Quoteyou may have been under the misapprehension that Irelands Call has something representative specific connection to the Unionist tradition
No, not at all, and I think you would need to have a seriously bigoted mind to come to that conclusion. But what I do have a problem with is the dropping of the National Anthem at away games, and even more so, lame attempts at trying to excuse the fact as to why it should be dropped. ::)
You can't be "dropped" if you've never played in the first place. A na b has never been played for Ireland's away games.
Quote from: balladmaker on November 22, 2008, 05:59:31 PM
Quoteyou may have been under the misapprehension that Irelands Call has something representative specific connection to the Unionist tradition
No, not at all, and I think you would need to have a seriously bigoted mind to come to that conclusion. But what I do have a problem with is the dropping of the National Anthem at away games, and even more so, lame attempts at trying to excuse the fact as to why it should be dropped. ::)
Ireland's Call is the official anthem of the Irish rugby union (encompassing both north and south). AnbF is played in Dublin in deference to the game being hosted in Dublin (usually).
I wasn't aware that A Na B was never played at away games. his in inself is a disgrace. I would agree with ballad maker, i have said it before it seems to be only once side compromising. Roger if you think sport is a political then eplain how this issue of the anthem has came about. If the existence of two separate national identities is not the cause of the problem then what is it?? I am intrigued.
Tonight was another example of the farce that is t Ireland rugby team. When A Na B wa played you had 3/4 of the team singing it. The other1/4 standing respectfully but silent. Hw in the name of christ can anyone tell me that this team is united. Lads catch on.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 22, 2008, 09:47:48 PM
I wasn't aware that A Na B was never played at away games. his in inself is a disgrace. I would agree with ballad maker, i have said it before it seems to be only once side compromising. Roger if you think sport is a political then eplain how this issue of the anthem has came about. If the existence of two separate national identities is not the cause of the problem then what is it?? I am intrigued.
Tonight was another example of the farce that is t Ireland rugby team. When A Na B wa played you had 3/4 of the team singing it. The other1/4 standing respectfully but silent. Hw in the name of christ can anyone tell me that this team is united. Lads catch on.
talking rubbish, watch england in their next match. some players never sing. loads of players stay silent
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 22, 2008, 09:47:48 PM
I wasn't aware that A Na B was never played at away games. his in inself is a disgrace. I would agree with ballad maker, i have said it before it seems to be only once side compromising. Roger if you think sport is a political then eplain how this issue of the anthem has came about. If the existence of two separate national identities is not the cause of the problem then what is it?? I am intrigued.
Where exactly is the one side compromising ?
Galway Bay Boy has accurately stated that Ireland's Call is the anthem for the IRFU.
It is played at home and away games.
Previous to Irelands Call, no anthem was played at away games.
The only side that does the compromising are the Unionist rugby supporters who have to come down to Dublin and listen to AnbF.
Isn't it ironic? and they are supposed to be the ones that don't bend.
The Cricket and Hockey teams don't play AnbF.
What anthem(s), if any, do they play before British and Irish Lions matches?
Quote from: Hardy on November 23, 2008, 09:51:24 AM
What anthem(s), if any, do they play before British and Irish Lions matches?
None from what I can remember although I think they play the anthem of the home country (NZ, OZ or SA).
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on November 23, 2008, 05:03:23 PM
Quote from: Hardy on November 23, 2008, 09:51:24 AM
What anthem(s), if any, do they play before British and Irish Lions matches?
None from what I can remember although I think they play the anthem of the home country (NZ, OZ or SA).
I wish we wouldn't pander to the minority. ::)
God Save The Queen should be played. ::)
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 22, 2008, 09:47:48 PM
I wasn't aware that A Na B was never played at away games. his in inself is a disgrace. I would agree with ballad maker, i have said it before it seems to be only once side compromising. Roger if you think sport is a political then eplain how this issue of the anthem has came about. If the existence of two separate national identities is not the cause of the problem then what is it?? I am intrigued.
Tonight was another example of the farce that is t Ireland rugby team. When A Na B wa played you had 3/4 of the team singing it. The other1/4 standing respectfully but silent. Hw in the name of christ can anyone tell me that this team is united. Lads catch on.
What a stupid post. I take it you would rather have 2 teams then?
Havent read the entire thread but is it not somewhere in the rules or laws of the IRFU that the national anthem of the host venue will be played before games. So as most games are in Dublin the Irish national anthem is played. Remember George Hook saying last year when there was a friendly in Belfast that God Save the Queen should have been played. Maybe I got that entirely wrong?
No rav i wouldn't rather have two teams but i find it very hypocritical to have one team that cannot seem to be united because of politcal ideologies. In essence a country should be united on all fronts including tradition, culture and the rest that goes with it. This Ireland team is clearly not. This is very noticeable when the anthem is being played. The first England game in croker where we had some of the Irish lads in tears for the anthem whilst others were standing about motionless. It doesn't make sense. Someone metioned the English standing not singing but i don't remember anyone debating about England. This debate is about Ireland and the issue of the playing of A Na B or Irelands call. The IRFU can make any decision they wish on the anthem and by all means make an attempt to be inclusive of all within society. However it is very hypocritical to portray Irish rugby as united and one nation when it is clearly not. They can't have their cake and eat it.
QuoteThe Cricket and Hockey teams don't play AnbF.
What do they play as a matter of interest?
Do other hockey & cricket national sides play their anthems before games?
I was trying to think back to the cricket world cup there but really couldn't remember any anthems but i am sure they played something.
Quote from: Over the Bar on November 24, 2008, 10:47:54 AM
QuoteThe Cricket and Hockey teams don't play AnbF.
What do they play as a matter of interest?
Do other hockey & cricket national sides play their anthems before games?
Don't know about Hockey, but international cricket games, including Ireland's, don't have National Anthems of any sort. Nor (imo) do they suffer any lack of passion or patriotism due to this either, as even a casual glance at the rivalry engendered e.g. by England v Australia or India v Pakistan demonstrates.
P.S. As for flags, I don't know what other countries do, but during the last cricket World Cup, Ireland played under the (non-political) flag of the Irish Cricket Union. Made up of players from both main tradition s on the island, and supplemented by overseas players of dubious "Irishness"(!), they actually performed highly creditably, not least because of their obvious comradeship and unity of purpose.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 24, 2008, 10:44:19 AM
This Ireland team is clearly not. This is very noticeable when the anthem is being played. The first England game in croker where we had some of the Irish lads in tears for the anthem whilst others were standing about motionless.
Singing or not singing an anthem isn't just about politics. Jerry Flannery doesn't sing A na B or Ireland's Call. Neither does Rory Best. Maybe hookers can't sing, but more likely each player will have their own way of preparing themselves for the game. Some will sing - some won't - whatever the anthem.
Quote from: mikerob on November 24, 2008, 01:39:16 PM
Jerry Flannery doesn't sing A na B or Ireland's Call. Neither does Rory Best. Maybe hookers can't sing
:D :D :D
Very good
correct me if i am wrong but Flannery was actually one of the ones crying to A Na B the day they played England in croker. Anyway i am not getting into the whole issue of who sings and who doesn't but i am questioning the unity of the team and organisation.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 24, 2008, 02:09:01 PM
correct me if i am wrong but Flannery was actually one of the ones crying to A Na B the day they played England in croker. Anyway i am not getting into the whole issue of who sings and who doesn't but i am questioning the unity of the team and organisation.
Surely even you can see that if you want a team which draws its players from two separate traditions/jurisdictions to be truly "united", then the best way of achieving this is by respecting both traditions equally i.e. both Anthems, no Anthems, or a neutral anthem (IC)?
Irelands Call is embarrassing.It sounds like a pub song sung by a bunch of wealthy snobs who have jumped on the Ireland Rugby bandwagon.
I personally couldn't care less about the Ireland rugby team Evil, i lost all respect for them when they started to play Irelands call . In many ways the Ireland rugby team is like the stormont executive. Made up of lots of factions and many traditions. But there is one difference the ones is stormont clearly make no bones about stating their national stance and identity. Unionists don't want to be Irish, it defeats there whole Ideology. So why then try and hoodwink the people into thinking the Ireland rugby team is actually Irish. When there are team members that clearly have no respect for the A Na B (the anthem of the country) they feel the need to bring in an IRFU anthem. It's a complete laughing stock. Have a six county team and have a 26 county team at least then they will be trully representing their national identity and not portraying a false image. then they can play whatever they want because it will be representing there own ideology and beliefs.
Since when has it been the job of a rugby team to represent ideologies and beliefs? You're e very determined partitionist, winsamsoon, in as far as I can interpret your contributions here.
Have only a very passing interest (if any) in rugby, but how the fcuk can any right minded person call for the playing of gstq to represent an Ireland rugby team - Jesus wept, that's like asking the Mexicans to stand for the Spanish national anthem, or the Belgians for the French!
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 24, 2008, 02:51:03 PM
I personally couldn't care less about the Ireland rugby team Evil, i lost all respect for them when they started to play Irelands call .
Strangely enough, I have lost my respect for the Ireland team, too, though for different reasons to you! ;)
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 24, 2008, 02:51:03 PM
In many ways the Ireland rugby team is like the stormont executive. Made up of lots of factions and many traditions. But there is one difference the ones is stormont clearly make no bones about stating their national stance and identity.
Actually, I don't think it's anything like Stormont. Irish rugby is an all-Ireland activity, for one thing, drawing participants from both sides of the border.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 24, 2008, 02:51:03 PM
Unionists don't want to be Irish, it defeats there whole Ideology.
Unionists who deny their Irishness are being stupid, even prejudiced, imo.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 24, 2008, 02:51:03 PM
So why then try and hoodwink the people into thinking the Ireland rugby team is actually Irish.
So if the Ireland rugby team isn't "Irish", then what is it? Martian? ???
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 24, 2008, 02:51:03 PM
When there are team members that clearly have no respect for the A Na B (the anthem of the country)
I have never seen any Ireland rugby player "disrespect" A Na B (actively or intentionally, at least). The same goes for the supporters, including those from the Unionist tradition in NI. Unless you consider standing quietly to attention whilst A Na B is being played to be "disrespectful, in which case it is not just NI players and spectators who offend. (Oh and btw, A Na B may be the anthem of
your country, but it is not the anthem of this Irishman)
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 24, 2008, 02:51:03 PMthey feel the need to bring in an IRFU anthem. It's a complete laughing stock.
The IRFU felt the need to bring in IC as their
rugby anthem. They are a rugby union, after all...
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 24, 2008, 02:51:03 PMHave a six county team and have a 26 county team at least then they will be trully representing their national identity and not portraying a false image. then they can play whatever they want because it will be representing there own ideology and beliefs.
Personally, I would now be happy to see two separate teams. But that will not come about, since the overwhelming majority of people everywhere involved with Irish rugby would be totally opposed to such a split. And it must be for them to determine how they do things. Just as it must be for the rest of us to react to their actions.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 24, 2008, 03:25:42 PM
Have only a very passing interest (if any) in rugby, but how the fcuk can any right minded person call for the playing of gstq to represent an Ireland rugby team
You misunderstand. GSTQ can never of itself represent the Ireland rugby team, merely the presence of players (from NI) whose National Anthem it is. By the same token, A Na B cannot represent the Irish rugby team, either, just those representatives (from ROI) whose National anthem it is.
Ireland's Call (whether you like it or not) is the Anthem of the Irish Rugby team, which is why it is played at every Irish rugby game, whether in Ireland or elsewhere. The IRFU's practice of playing A Na B at some matches in addition is a separate matter.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 24, 2008, 03:25:42 PM
Jesus wept, that's like asking the Mexicans to stand for the Spanish national anthem, or the Belgians for the French!
Nothing like it. If you had a representative team made up of both Mexican
and Spanish Nationals, or one made up of both French and Belgians, what anthem would you play? What anthem do you think the British & Irish Lions should play?
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 24, 2008, 02:51:03 PM
I personally couldn't care less about the Ireland rugby team Evil, i lost all respect for them when they started to play Irelands call . In many ways the Ireland rugby team is like the stormont executive. Made up of lots of factions and many traditions. But there is one difference the ones is stormont clearly make no bones about stating their national stance and identity. Unionists don't want to be Irish, it defeats there whole Ideology. So why then try and hoodwink the people into thinking the Ireland rugby team is actually Irish. When there are team members that clearly have no respect for the A Na B (the anthem of the country) they feel the need to bring in an IRFU anthem. It's a complete laughing stock. Have a six county team and have a 26 county team at least then they will be trully representing their national identity and not portraying a false image. then they can play whatever they want because it will be representing there own ideology and beliefs.
Unionists are Irish. They are not the republican Irish for which you claim they should if they want to play rugby for the island of Ireland.
Why would a rugby team comprising those from a single land mass with two states play a Political anthem from one state and expect those from the other state to sing it? It is more impressive that they have thick enough skin to take this annual insult.
QuoteWhat anthem do you think the British & Irish Lions should play?
Come Out Ye Black & Tans....
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 24, 2008, 03:25:42 PM
Have only a very passing interest (if any) in rugby, but how the fcuk can any right minded person call for the playing of gstq to represent an Ireland rugby team - Jesus wept, that's like asking the Mexicans to stand for the Spanish national anthem, or the Belgians for the French!
I agree whole heartedly. And it goes both ways.
How the fcuk can any right right minded person call for the playing of the SS to represent an Ireland rugby team - Jesus wept, that's like asking the Mexicans to stand for the Spanish national anthem, or the Belgians for the French!
EG - Why exactly would you prefer to see two seperate teams? Surely one team from the island can (and has) accomplished much more than two seperate teams could (and hypothetically would have)? Isnt it better for Irish rugby?
Quote from: Puckoon on November 24, 2008, 05:07:20 PM
EG - Why exactly would you prefer to see two seperate teams? Surely one team from the island can (and has) accomplished much more than two seperate teams could (and hypothetically would have)? Isnt it better for Irish rugby?
Two rugby teams will never happen IMO. There's too much history and weight of tradition behind the Ireland rugby team now and there is no great appetite anywhere for splitting the team in two (well apart from on OWC).
It would kill rugby in that part of the country. A NI rugby team wouldn't even be as good as Ulster. That would be a farcical situation in itself. Also wouldn't be good enough to play in the 6 Nations so a NI team would have to survive on playing the Portugal's and Belgium's of the world in front of two men and a dog.
The irish rugby team then shouldn't be called Ireland if they have two different songs representing two different factions.
QuoteWhat anthem do you think the British & Irish Lions should play?
I don't remember the British and irish lions claiming to be a country???
QuoteWhy would a rugby team comprising those from a single land mass with two states play a Political anthem from one state and expect those from the other state to sing it?
why then have a team claiming to do it if you can't get something as simple as a song??
QuoteSo if the Ireland rugby team isn't "Irish", then what is it? Martian?
I can't answer that because the only thing they share is the name.
QuoteI have never seen any Ireland rugby player "disrespect" A Na B (actively or intentionally, at least).
I never said they disrepected it i said they had no respect for it. There is a difference. After all how could they have respect for it when it clearly attacks all that they stand for and glorifies past terrorists against the state ;) They cannot call themselves a country because they clearly are not. Two teams would be far more representative, maybe not as good as but certainly more representative of each section. Then the north could play GTSQ and the South A Na B
Quote from: Roger on November 24, 2008, 03:56:27 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 24, 2008, 03:25:42 PM
Have only a very passing interest (if any) in rugby, but how the fcuk can any right minded person call for the playing of gstq to represent an Ireland rugby team - Jesus wept, that's like asking the Mexicans to stand for the Spanish national anthem, or the Belgians for the French!
I agree whole heartedly. And it goes both ways.
How the fcuk can any right right minded person call for the playing of the SS to represent an Ireland rugby team - Jesus wept, that's like asking the Mexicans to stand for the Spanish national anthem, or the Belgians for the French!
a good point
though I'd say not quite as accurate a comparison as we would need here
I'd ask do the catalans stand for the spanish national anthem?
thats prob as close as we would get to our own case perhaps ?
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 24, 2008, 06:28:05 PM
why then have a team claiming to do it if you can't get something as simple as a song??
Because from a rugby fan's perspective, the team and the game are a lot more important than a song.
Obviously not mike when you have players threatening to pull out of the squad unless it is changed. I think you will find if the team was bigger than what you say then the issue of the anthem wouldn't be an issue. wake up to reality.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 24, 2008, 06:34:06 PM
Quote from: Roger on November 24, 2008, 03:56:27 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 24, 2008, 03:25:42 PM
Have only a very passing interest (if any) in rugby, but how the fcuk can any right minded person call for the playing of gstq to represent an Ireland rugby team - Jesus wept, that's like asking the Mexicans to stand for the Spanish national anthem, or the Belgians for the French!
I agree whole heartedly. And it goes both ways.
How the fcuk can any right right minded person call for the playing of the SS to represent an Ireland rugby team - Jesus wept, that's like asking the Mexicans to stand for the Spanish national anthem, or the Belgians for the French!
a good point
though I'd say not quite as accurate a comparison as we would need here
I'd ask do the catalans stand for the spanish national anthem?
thats prob as close as we would get to our own case perhaps ?
At least there are no words to the Spanish anthem. :)
They tried to compose patriotic lyrics but the Basques, Catalans and Galicians wouldn't hear of it.
After a big investigation, they even tried to blame Spain's soccer team's lack of (previous) success firmly on the absence of words to the anthem. We all know now that has no validity.
I stand firmly with the Ulstermen on this issue, (that includes Evil Genius too).
It's Rugby Union after all.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 24, 2008, 08:45:28 PM
Obviously not mike when you have players threatening to pull out of the squad unless it is changed. I think you will find if the team was bigger than what you say then the issue of the anthem wouldn't be an issue. wake up to reality.
Who is threatening to pull out of the squad unless it is changed? flegs'n'anthems is a perennial subject for debate on message boards, but rugby is a professional sport - a player can "threaten to pull out" all they want - it would just mean they are in breach of their employment contract and they are out of a job. Irelands Call has been played for over 10 years now. If someone doesn't like it, they shouldn't have gone for the job as a professional rugby player aspiring to make the Ireland team in the first place.
(ps if a player is threatening to pull out, I hope it is ROG - he is playing like a drain ;D )
I reckon they should play The Specials "Ghost Town" ala Fr Ted.
To be honest I don't give two shites what anthem or anthems are played. Its never going to make everybody on this island 100% happy anyway so lads, either put up or shut up.
QuoteTo be honest I don't give two shites what anthem or anthems are played. Its never going to make everybody on this island 100% happy anyway so lads, either put up or shut up.
Glad to see the patriotic spirit is alive and well ;D
another fine contribution by CC1. Mike i will agree with you on O'Gara he is having a mare at the moment
Quote from: balladmaker on November 25, 2008, 09:30:35 AM
QuoteTo be honest I don't give two shites what anthem or anthems are played. Its never going to make everybody on this island 100% happy anyway so lads, either put up or shut up.
Glad to see the patriotic spirit is alive and well ;D
Don't get me wrong, I'm a proud Irishman, but anthems in sport seem to cause more problems than the patriotic spirit you speak of.
Only if there is no unification CC1. If there is unification the anthem wouldn't be an issue.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 24, 2008, 06:28:05 PM
The irish rugby team then shouldn't be called Ireland if they have two different songs representing two different factions.
The Republic of Ireland should not be referred to as Ireland. It isn't Ireland and the Republic's symbols and anthems don't represent Ireland. It's only people like you who thinks Ireland's anthem is the SS or AnBF or whatever you abbreviate it as.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 09:53:54 AM
Only if there is no unification CC1. If there is unification the anthem wouldn't be an issue.
There won't be a unification in your's or my lifetime unless Unionists are persuaded to vote for an all-island state. The republic's flag, Anthem and culture of anti-Britishness is hardly likely to persuade a Unionist.
Quote from: Roger on November 25, 2008, 10:06:26 AM
The Republic of Ireland should not be referred to as Ireland.
Sorry about that chief. We'll get on it right away for you. It'll take a slight re-write of the constitution, all our international treaties, etc. But, just for you, we'll be delighted.
well roger i can tell you lad there are a lot of "people like me" as you say. I don't live in the ROI but i am Irish, have an irish passport, share Irish culture and i see the SS or A Na B or whatever you want to abbreviate it as (because deep down you can't even bare to call it anything only the soldiers song, so as you can focus on the soldier part) My national anthem. Is that a crime?? If protestant - Unionists want to have GSTQ as their anthem then that is ther personal choice but don't try to make a fool out of other folk who have different traditions and symbols.If the Republic cannot be referred to as Ireland then i think i am fighting a darky on this one.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 10:13:57 AM
well roger i can tell you lad there are a lot of "people like me" as you say. I don't live in the ROI but i am Irish, have an irish passport, share Irish culture and i see the SS or A Na B or whatever you want to abbreviate it as (because deep down you can't even bare to call it anything only the soldiers song, so as you can focus on the soldier part) My national anthem. Is that a crime?? If protestant - Unionists want to have GSTQ as their anthem then that is ther personal choice but don't try to make a fool out of other folk who have different traditions and symbols.If the Republic cannot be referred to as Ireland then i think i am fighting a darky on this one.
Good for you, fill your boots. It'll not be the Anthem in Northern Ireland during your lifetime though.
Turkeys don't vote for Xmas, they vote for Unionists :D
Quote from: Hardy on November 25, 2008, 10:08:57 AM
Sorry about that chief. We'll get on it right away for you. It'll take a slight re-write of the constitution, all our international treaties, etc. But, just for you, we'll be delighted.
Why not call yourself Europe while your at it.
Quote from: Roger on November 25, 2008, 10:08:16 AM
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 09:53:54 AM
Only if there is no unification CC1. If there is unification the anthem wouldn't be an issue.
There won't be a unification in your's or my lifetime unless Unionists are persuaded to vote for an all-island state. The republic's flag, Anthem and culture of anti-Britishness is hardly likely to persuade a Unionist.
What now??? Me thinks you're getting your Orders mixed up...
QuoteGood for you, fill your boots. It'll not be the Anthem in Northern Ireland during your lifetime though.
Turkeys don't vote for Xmas, they vote for Unionists
You see roger this is what gets me lad. If you hate the whole issue so much and you are obviously repulsed by the fact that ireland exists and you want to remain separate from it. Then why do you want to be part of an Ireland team that doesn't recognise partition. why don't you just campaign for a 6 county team. How hypocritical are you.
QuoteThe Republic of Ireland should not be referred to as Ireland. It isn't Ireland and the Republic's symbols and anthems don't represent Ireland. It's only people like you who thinks Ireland's anthem is the SS or AnBF or whatever you abbreviate it as.
And there is the error of your ways Roger. You expect everyone on this island to bend over backwards to accomodate you and others like you, however, you are not prepared to move an inch to accommodate anyone. Like it or not, you live on the island of Ireland, of which the Republic of Ireland is the vast majority. You're always on about majority rule, yet you do not wish to accept it when it is not in your favour to do so.
ah the old superiority complex raise its head yet again, its never far away you know, well taught from an early age
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 10:31:58 AM
You see roger this is what gets me lad. If you hate the whole issue so much and you are obviously repulsed by the fact that ireland exists and you want to remain separate from it. Then why do you want to be part of an Ireland team that doesn't recognise partition. why don't you just campaign for a 6 county team. How hypocritical are you.
What a weird grasp of reality you have. The Ireland rugby team represents players from the island in a Rugby Union. Just because there is a rugby team doesn't mean that Politics should be determined by it. Bizarre thinking.
Quote from: balladmaker on November 25, 2008, 10:44:14 AM
And there is the error of your ways Roger. You expect everyone on this island to bend over backwards to accomodate you and others like you, however, you are not prepared to move an inch to accommodate anyone. Like it or not, you live on the island of Ireland, of which the Republic of Ireland is the vast majority. You're always on about majority rule, yet you do not wish to accept it when it is not in your favour to do so.
The Ireland rugby team doesn't need to bend over any direction to accommodate anyone in Ireland. They simply shouldn't bring Politics into the sport by playing a Political anthem that does not represent the team. With respect to the Anthem issue at Ireland matches my opinion Politically is only relevant in that I identify the irony that the current playing of the SS is actually enforcing partition and division seemingly by those who seek to do the opposite.
I'm not on about majority rule at all, where have I said that? I've only said that under Unionists are needed to vote for an all-island state. Under the current constitutional arrangements agreed by all Northern Ireland Politicians, voted on by both states in Ireland and approved in the UK that is a fact.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 09:53:54 AM
Only if there is no unification CC1. If there is unification the anthem wouldn't be an issue.
I'm talking about anthems at sporting events in general not just in this country. I don't believe they should be mixed. You always have problems in some way shape or form, whether it is people not singing the anthems or people booing the anthems. Anthems at sporting events in my opinion are unnecessary.
I know for a fact that when I tog out for my club in championship games that I would rather just get down to playing than have to sing along to the national anthem. I don't need it to feel any more Irish than I am and it certainly doesn't get me any more motivated in my games. Maybe I am alone on that but thats my opinion.
Quote from: An Fear Rua on November 25, 2008, 10:47:46 AM
ah the old superiority complex raise its head yet again, its never far away you know, well taught from an early age
That is a very bigotted comment.
Roger you want to explain to me how you could seriously take any offence at the Tricolour?
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 25, 2008, 11:07:27 AM
Roger you want to explain to me how you could seriously take any offence at the Tricolour?
I don't take offense at it. When I'm in Dublin I expect to see it flying. I only take offense at it if someone tries to have it as an emblem representing Northern Ireland. It doesn't - fact.
Quote from: CC1 on November 25, 2008, 10:59:54 AM
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 09:53:54 AM
Only if there is no unification CC1. If there is unification the anthem wouldn't be an issue.
I'm talking about anthems at sporting events in general not just in this country. I don't believe they should be mixed. You always have problems in some way shape or form, whether it is people not singing the anthems or people booing the anthems. Anthems at sporting events in my opinion are unnecessary.
I know for a fact that when I tog out for my club in championship games that I would rather just get down to playing than have to sing along to the national anthem. I don't need it to feel any more Irish than I am and it certainly doesn't get me any more motivated in my games. Maybe I am alone on that but thats my opinion.
You are not alone.
Quote from: Roger on November 25, 2008, 10:08:16 AM
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 09:53:54 AM
Only if there is no unification CC1. If there is unification the anthem wouldn't be an issue.
There won't be a unification in your's or my lifetime unless Unionists are persuaded to vote for an all-island state. The republic's flag, Anthem and culture of anti-Britishness is hardly likely to persuade a Unionist.
I'll rephrase the question then - can you explain to me how Unionists could seriously take any offence at the Tricolour?
Quote from: Hardy on November 25, 2008, 11:13:38 AM
You are not alone.
I would have thought that to be the case too. The ceremonial nonsense at Croke Park for the rugby is ridiculous in my opinion. 4 tunes and a haka the previous week! I would have thought that the players would want to hear the whistle and get things under way rather than all that stuff. That said, O'Connell weighed into the Poltical bits last year saying he felt playing the SS at away matches too would help him prepare for the game.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 25, 2008, 11:16:24 AM
I'll rephrase the question then - can you explain to me how Unionists could seriously take any offence at the Tricolour?
I just told you. If it in some way is seen to represent Northern Ireland then it is offensive. It doesn't represent Northern Ireland - fact.
I presume you'd like this conversation to go a different route and ended with sure it's all about 'Peace between Green and Orange'?
Quote from: Roger on November 25, 2008, 11:20:36 AM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 25, 2008, 11:16:24 AM
I'll rephrase the question then - can you explain to me how Unionists could seriously take any offence at the Tricolour?
I just told you. If it in some way is seen to represent Northern Ireland then it is offensive. It doesn't represent Northern Ireland - fact.
I presume you'd like this conversation to go a different route and ended with sure it's all about 'Peace between Green and Orange'?
No just wondering seeing as your currently speaking for the Unionist pop:
Quote from Roger
"There won't be a unification in your's or my lifetime unless Unionists are persuaded to vote for an all-island state.
The republic's flag, Anthem and culture of anti-Britishness is hardly likely to persuade a Unionist. "
I still want to know what exactly it is to do with the flag that unionists have a problem with?
I really am perplexed at the fuss about "Ireland's Call" and the political nuances that are being read into it her eon this thread.
It is not, nor was it ever meant to be, a classical piece of musical virtuosity; whatever that damn word means. It's purely and simply an excuse to raise the adrenalin levels, to bond the team and supporters together and to hurl defiance at the other tribe and their warriors- and such carry has been there since the beginning of time.
Anyone who'd call for the likes of "Danny Boy" or, say, "My Lagan Love" before a game in Landsdowne should seriously consider looking for counselling.
It's all about thumping to a simple beat, swaying in unison with the team and screaming to intimidate the invaders.
That's about as basic as it gets and I doubt if any Irish supporter, North or South, gives a damn when the time comes to stand up and "welcome" th other side.
The All Blacks use the Haka for the very same reason and the Political Correctists amongst us are known to object to the fact that an aboriginal custom is being parodied by the ruling white classes.
Maybe it is indeed but when the time is ticking down to the kick off I doubt if any one of any colour or background in New Zealand is concerned at the PC element at all.
Doesn't the very same thing occur in Croker?
I doubt if very many would consider the words or the martial air to be in sync with PC sentiments today but what happens when the last few bars of the song is reached?
Both sides will adopt the song as their own and rise with a roar to their feet, blocking out the words of poor ol' A na bFh and no one gives a damn about political improprieties as each side tries to gee up its own team and intimidate the other side and its followers.
When you see players from both traditions on this island bonded together , with tears streaming down their faces and them all giving welly to the words of Ireland's Call, it a blood stirring occasion for me and I wouldn't be too worried if "Baa, Baa, Black Sheep" was the ditty being used as long as the adrenalin starts pumping.
BTW; just giving a nod to political conventions here; on occasions when the Irish rugby team played at Ravenhill, as happened often in pre-WW2 days, GTSQ was the Anthem used by the IRFU.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 25, 2008, 11:34:22 AM
No just wondering seeing as your currently speaking for the Unionist pop:
Just giving my opinion.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 25, 2008, 11:34:22 AM
I still want to know what exactly it is to do with the flag that unionists have a problem with?
In the context of my previous quote I would say that the ROI flag, ROI Anthem and the culture (that in my view) goes with it is very much different and very much opposed to Unionist traditions. Therefore trying to force these symbols to represent Unionists is likely to have the opposite effect. It's a bit of a sweeping statement but I'd say Unionists are pretty thran and stubborn bunch and whilst most people don't like being told what to do, I reckon they're well up the league of people who don't. Therefore when these symbols are forced on Unionists then it totally negates any all-island, common denominator, proud to be Irish sort of stuff that would normally be the case at an Ireland rugby match.
Lar no one is questioning the lyrics of the song of irelands call or the reason why is it is used. I know it is used merely as a motivational tool. My issue is with the fact that it has now become the number one song of the Ireland rugby team almost replacing A Na B. Now i don't see a valid reason for changing the anthem at all. It is a simple question are they irish or are they not. In order to play for Ireland you must be irish (unless you are tony cascareno ;)) If you claim to be anything else then it is very hypocritical. As i have said you cannot have your cake and eat it. If you want to play for the Ireland rugby team then you must go with the status quo and not seek to change everything because a crowd claim it is offensive. After all it was not included to be offensive. As you said lar but to gee the players up before the game and instill them with national pride. Folks from the Protestant/ Unionist (mainly up north) tradition cannot link with the idea of this national pride (i understand that because they have different political aims and ideologies) they should then form a team of their that would represent the 6 counties and would fly the flag of northern ireland and play GSTQ.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 12:03:11 PM
It is a simple question are they irish or are they not.
Republic of Ireland does not equal Ireland. Can you not understand that simple fact? ???
no one said it was all of Ireland but it is certainly a massive part of it. Can you understand that.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 12:16:31 PM
no one said it was all of Ireland but it is certainly a massive part of it. Can you understand that.
Absolutely. They even have more players on the team too. But it is a sport and a game represented by players from two states. Your ridiculous argument is along the lines of "Ireland = Republic of Ireland" or else "the biggest states takes precedent and if you don't like it, lie down or feck aff'. Whichever line you are taking is neither is the correct thing or even relevant for the sport of rugby in Ireland.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 12:16:31 PM
no one said it was all of Ireland but it is certainly a massive part of it. Can you understand that.
Hmmm.. majority rules, like it or lump it. Live with our identity and get on with it.
You are not a Ulster Unionist circa 1967 are you?
/Jim.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on November 25, 2008, 01:12:28 PM
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 12:16:31 PM
no one said it was all of Ireland but it is certainly a massive part of it. Can you understand that.
Hmmm.. majority rules, like it or lump it. Live with our identity and get on with it.
You are not a Ulster Unionist circa 1967 are you?
/Jim.
The IRFU isn't a democracy like a country , while it is democratic it is a sporting organisation who's goal is to promote Irish Rugby and a core part of this is a strong National team a team which is would be significantly weakened by a boycott or pulling out by the unionist players or branch
dont know if this has been mentioned before, but my problem with the irelands call thing is that its cr*p
however I am surprised that the unionist fraternity actually 'WANT' it at all given the reason for its title and where (rather micheviously) it got its name !
neither of them are my argument. I am saying that if rugby was "a "politcal, as you claim then there would be no problem with the anthem issue. However it has been made into a political device. I am not saying it is my way or the highway but i find it a contradiction of both Unionism and the IRFU to try and claim they are a country when in fact they are representing two states and two separate ideologies. This is clearly causing problems because it has led to this very debate. I am not a bigot in anyway i am all for letting people live how they choose. But i think it is wrong for to take away from one culture just to make things better balanced in terms of the so called greater good. I have said it before in our society we have a group of people that are constantly liberal trying to dilute cultures and make changes foolishly thinking that it will transfrom society and the past will be forgotten and everyone will live in harmony. Stop trying to change people, by all means if there is violence or troubles then sort them out but let people retain what is important to them and stop always trying to fit other people into categories.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 25, 2008, 02:03:03 PM
dont know if this has been mentioned before, but my problem with the irelands call thing is that its cr*p
I tend to agree but that's a different issue.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 25, 2008, 02:03:03 PMhowever I am surprised that the unionist fraternity actually 'WANT' it at all given the reason for its title and where (rather micheviously) it got its name !
I don't have a problem with the title or where it got its name from. Why is it mischievous or what would the problem be?
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 02:20:25 PM
neither of them are my argument. I am saying that if rugby was "a "politcal, as you claim then there would be no problem with the anthem issue. However it has been made into a political device. I am not saying it is my way or the highway but i find it a contradiction of both Unionism and the IRFU to try and claim they are a country when in fact they are representing two states and two separate ideologies. This is clearly causing problems because it has led to this very debate. I am not a bigot in anyway i am all for letting people live how they choose. But i think it is wrong for to take away from one culture just to make things better balanced in terms of the so called greater good. I have said it before in our society we have a group of people that are constantly liberal trying to dilute cultures and make changes foolishly thinking that it will transfrom society and the past will be forgotten and everyone will live in harmony. Stop trying to change people, by all means if there is violence or troubles then sort them out but let people retain what is important to them and stop always trying to fit other people into categories.
Do you think there should be a UK team and not 3 separate UK teams and one combined Republic of and Northern Ireland team?
Ireland rugby is a sporting union that pre-dated partition because partition and its Politics are irrelevant in the sport. Ditch the playing of one state's anthem and fly the IRFU flag and there are no Politics to be found within the IRFU. Unfortunately the Political arrogance of those in the Republic within the IRFU have influenced it with regard to these minor and simply rectified issues. This Anthem issue is a new thing since 2007, it is the wrong thing, and it is a misunderstood thing, and it is generally commented on by people who don't know or understand the issue.
No there should be an English, Welsh, Scottish , Northern Ireland and a Ireland team. I have often criticised soccer but at least their current arrangement goes along with their political aims and beliefs. sure it is constantly hunting them but that is the decision they made. They are not pretending to be something that they clearly have no interest and infact despise. But lets not get into the soccer thing because that could be another 13 pages :o
You say it is the southern delegates that are arrogant and have changed the issues but surely that is what you are looking to do now by scrapping the anthem of a country all together. Hyprocracy once again.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 20, 2008, 08:18:03 AM
What anthem do Northern Ireland use tonto? Aren't they meant to represent two traditions?
Did you get a response to this? Seemed to stop Tonto mid-stride until a few pages passed.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 03:18:29 PM
No there should be an English, Welsh, Scottish , Northern Ireland and a Ireland team. I have often criticised soccer but at least their current arrangement goes along with their political aims and beliefs. sure it is constantly hunting them but that is the decision they made. They are not pretending to be something that they clearly have no interest and infact despise. But lets not get into the soccer thing because that could be another 13 pages :o
You say it is the southern delegates that are arrogant and have changed the issues but surely that is what you are looking to do now by scrapping the anthem of a country all together. Hyprocracy once again.
There is no hypocrisy. There is no state playing the game in rugby and therefore it is not relevant to play any state anthem for the Ireland team. Ireland is an island not a state. FFS, let's just leave it since you clearly can't get that basic thing and you clearly don't understand the administration of rugby in Ireland both in NI and ROI never mind anywhere else.
Well Winsamsoon I completely disagree with your take that there should be two Ireland teams.
If singing a different song allows the two parts of Ireland to come together in the one team then I'd definitely see that as an improvement on two different teams.
And to me that's all it really boils down to.
QuoteThere is no state playing the game in rugby and therefore it is not relevant to play any state anthem for the Ireland team.
Fair enough, then just use the anthem that enjoys the support of the majority of people in Ireland, if one of the political entities also happens to use it then what harm.
Quote from: bennydorano on November 25, 2008, 04:02:34 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 20, 2008, 08:18:03 AM
What anthem do Northern Ireland use tonto? Aren't they meant to represent two traditions?
Did you get a response to this? Seemed to stop Tonto mid-stride until a few pages passed.
Mid stride - it was posted almost seven hours after and before I was on the board FFS - you don't expect me to man the computer 24 hours a day do you. Only some people are that sad.
Anyway, didn't think the question was worth answering TBH seeing as the anthem for football in NI in no way, shape or form relates to the anthem debate for the rugby over the two Irish jurisdictions.
Hope this helps. ::)
Was just reading through there. A good debate but somewhat saddening for me.
In a country of great musical tradition, we are arguing over which of these 3 terrible songs should be played.
Amhran na bPian - Poorly composed. When I listen to it being played, I cringe. Notes are missed left right and centre. Not the player's fault. It just doesn't fit.
God Save the Queen - A shouting match, poor lyrics. Is there a tune?
Ireland's Call - Just play Advance Australia fair and get on with it. Pure nonsense.
Quote from: armaghniac on November 25, 2008, 06:49:05 PM
QuoteThere is no state playing the game in rugby and therefore it is not relevant to play any state anthem for the Ireland team.
Fair enough, then just use the anthem that enjoys the support of the majority of people in Ireland, if one of the political entities also happens to use it then what harm.
And you'd be saying the same if the unionists and GSTQ were the majority, right? :)
You'd think some of you northern boys would have a deeper appreciation of how symbolism can be used to alienate and divide.
J70 what some of you southern whores don't understand is that the symbolism you speak of that was used to alienate in the north still exists. You speak of it as if it is the past tense. There are many public building up here that still fly the union flag and we have simply no input into it at all. We just have to grin and bare it, where are the calls from the south to make this society all inclusive. So why then should we be asks to forefit our anthem for a supposed national team??? what is good for the goose. You know compromise works both ways. So maybe if you had to continually walk into work and be surrounded by things that are British you would have a better understanding of why us "northern boys" feel so strongly about our national anthem. Some of the southern counterparts may have moved on because things are slightly different in the south now. Sure, we have peace in the north but that is all we have, there are still elements of our society that haven't changed whatsoever. Take a trip to the shankill road and speak with a southern accent and you will soon find out what i mean. So as a fellow Irishman you can maybe appreciate that the issue of an anthem would be slightly move divisive.
QuoteAnd you'd be saying the same if the unionists and GSTQ were the majority, right?
Correct J70, but your point is completely irrelevant, Unionists are not the majority in Ireland, so live with that fact!
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 11:32:20 PM
J70 what some of you southern whores don't understand is that the symbolism you speak of that was used to alienate in the north still exists. You speak of it as if it is the past tense. There are many public building up here that still fly the union flag and we have simply no input into it at all. We just have to grin and bare it, where are the calls from the south to make this society all inclusive. So why then should we be asks to forefit our anthem for a supposed national team??? what is good for the goose. You know compromise works both ways. So maybe if you had to continually walk into work and be surrounded by things that are British you would have a better understanding of why us "northern boys" feel so strongly about our national anthem. Some of the southern counterparts may have moved on because things are slightly different in the south now. Sure, we have peace in the north but that is all we have, there are still elements of our society that haven't changed whatsoever. Take a trip to the shankill road and speak with a southern accent and you will soon find out what i mean. So as a fellow Irishman you can maybe appreciate that the issue of an anthem would be slightly move divisive.
Well when the IRFU's coup removes the corrupt government of the "south" , I am sure they will put pressure on the north. Until then it is a sporting organisation ,concerned shockingly enough with sport
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 11:32:20 PM
J70 what some of you southern whores don't understand is that the symbolism you speak of that was used to alienate in the north still exists. You speak of it as if it is the past tense. There are many public building up here that still fly the union flag and we have simply no input into it at all. We just have to grin and bare it, where are the calls from the south to make this society all inclusive. So why then should we be asks to forefit our anthem for a supposed national team??? what is good for the goose. You know compromise works both ways. So maybe if you had to continually walk into work and be surrounded by things that are British you would have a better understanding of why us "northern boys" feel so strongly about our national anthem. Some of the southern counterparts may have moved on because things are slightly different in the south now. Sure, we have peace in the north but that is all we have, there are still elements of our society that haven't changed whatsoever. Take a trip to the shankill road and speak with a southern accent and you will soon find out what i mean. So as a fellow Irishman you can maybe appreciate that the issue of an anthem would be slightly move divisive.
Obviously this is about "what is good for the goose". That does not mean that Ireland's Call is not the right thing to do however. You people in the north are the ones with the most to gain in terms of reunification one day, yet you criticize those of us from the south who are willing to compromise on (trivial) issues such as this which are far more likely to appeal to unionists than entrenched, obstinate "if they don't like it they can just f**k off" kinds of attitudes.
Quote from: balladmaker on November 25, 2008, 11:42:57 PM
QuoteAnd you'd be saying the same if the unionists and GSTQ were the majority, right?
Correct J70, but your point is completely irrelevant, Unionists are not the majority in Ireland, so live with that fact!
No, I seriously doubt if his attitude would be same if the shoe was on the other foot, which is a relevant point.
Unless he (and the rest of you) agrees with the predominance of British/Unionist symbolism in official Northern Ireland?
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 25, 2008, 11:32:20 PM
.So why then should we be asks to forefit our anthem for a supposed national team??? what is good for the goose. You know compromise works both ways.
You do understand that Irelands Call is the Rugby anthem?
AnbF has never been the Rugby anthem.
What are "we" forfeiting, what are you forfeiting?
The Rugby team represents the IRFU, not just the Republic. It is not a "supposed national team".
Same way the Hockey, Cricket and Boxing teams represent their federations.
All these sports encompass two territories.
The IRFU should just make a quiet discreet move to adopt a real tune, one that would please Frankie Boy no end, and quietly ditch AnbF from all the pre match hoo haa at Lansdowne rd.
QuoteIt is not a "supposed national team".
I am not talking about the IRFU as an organisation i am talking about the Ireland team. How can they call it a national team when it clearly doesn't represent all within the society. What you guys fail to realise is that no matter how many things you change there will always be sections of the unionist folk in the north that will never follow Ireland. But if they are true unionists they have to refuse to follow them because it is a complete contradiction of their ideoloy. They want a union with Britain they don't aspire in any way to be Irish. So how can changing an anthem for their benefit, benefit them when the majority don't want anything to do with it in the first place. yet they would rather put the noses out of joint of the people that did follow them
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 26, 2008, 12:31:23 AM
QuoteIt is not a "supposed national team".
They want a union with Britain they don't aspire in any way to be Irish.
Well your talking out your swizz here . Ask some of the OWC lads here they consider them self Irish and British.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 26, 2008, 12:31:23 AM
QuoteIt is not a "supposed national team".
I am not talking about the IRFU as an organisation i am talking about the Ireland team. How can they call it a national team when it clearly doesn't represent all within the society. What you guys fail to realise is that no matter how many things you change there will always be sections of the unionist folk in the north that will never follow Ireland. But if they are true unionists they have to refuse to follow them because it is a complete contradiction of their ideoloy. They want a union with Britain they don't aspire in any way to be Irish. So how can changing an anthem for their benefit, benefit them when the majority don't want anything to do with it in the first place. yet they would rather put the noses out of joint of the people that did follow them
I don't think anyone doubts that some unionists will never follow an all-Ireland team. But many others do, which is the point. Its a shared rugby team, not reunification, but the way some nationalists are reacting to the notion of a neutral anthem would surely give any unionist serious pause before even beginning to consider the idea of a united Ireland.
Us northerners are so attached to the national anthem that there is hardly a fecker bothered to learn the words. Compare the regular mumbling in Croke at both gaa and rugby with the way the Welsh belt it out in Cardiff and dare I say it the English too.
Gnevin i am not in the slight bit interested in what the ones on the OWC would say because i have enough first hand eveidence of it to know. If you cannot understand that certain unionists will never accept anything Irish then i seriously do not know where you are coming from lad.
QuoteI don't think anyone doubts that some unionists will never follow an all-Ireland team. But many others do, which is the point. Its a shared rugby team, not reunification, but the way some nationalists are reacting to the notion of a neutral anthem would surely give any unionist serious pause before even beginning to consider the idea of a united Ireland.
J70 whilst i take on board what you are saying i still do not see how it has suddenly become our responsibility to break the fall for Unionists to enter into a unified Ireland. If a united Ireland ever comes about it is not up to me to bend over backwards to welcome in unionists. Now this doesn't mean that i would astrocise them or do what they done on Nationalist during the troubles but i most certainly do not expect to dillute my culture or anything else for that matter to accept Northern Unionists into a united Ireland when the majority of them (going on the last DUP vote) despise everything you stand for.
Oh and Tony the Welsh belt it out because they have pride in what they stand for and they are united. Can this be said for Ireland?? Nada.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 26, 2008, 12:56:16 AM
Gnevin i am not in the slight bit interested in what the ones on the OWC would say because i have enough first hand eveidence of it to know. If you cannot understand that certain unionists will never accept anything Irish then i seriously do not know where you are coming from lad.
So the OWC lads aren't true unionist . Have you told them this?
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 26, 2008, 12:31:23 AM
I am not talking about the IRFU as an organisation i am talking about the Ireland team. How can they call it a national team when it clearly doesn't represent all within the society
.
It is not a national team, it is the representative team of the IRFU.
It does not represent all within the societies both in the North and the South.
The team represents the sport of Rugby in Ireland, North and South.
QuoteWhat you guys fail to realise is that no matter how many things you change there will always be sections of the unionist folk in the north that will never follow Ireland. But if they are true unionists they have to refuse to follow them because it is a complete contradiction of their ideoloy. They want a union with Britain they don't aspire in any way to be Irish. So how can changing an anthem for their benefit, benefit them when the majority don't want anything to do with it in the first place. yet they would rather put the noses out of joint of the people that did follow them
What are you going on about?
The Rugby anthem is Irelands Call.
The reasons expressed in this thread to change it have nothing to do with the feelings of Unionists.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 26, 2008, 12:56:16 AM
QuoteI don't think anyone doubts that some unionists will never follow an all-Ireland team. But many others do, which is the point. Its a shared rugby team, not reunification, but the way some nationalists are reacting to the notion of a neutral anthem would surely give any unionist serious pause before even beginning to consider the idea of a united Ireland.
J70 whilst i take on board what you are saying i still do not see how it has suddenly become our responsibility to break the fall for Unionists to enter into a unified Ireland. If a united Ireland ever comes about it is not up to me to bend over backwards to welcome in unionists. Now this doesn't mean that i would astrocise them or do what they done on Nationalist during the troubles but i most certainly do not expect to dillute my culture or anything else for that matter to accept Northern Unionists into a united Ireland when the majority of them (going on the last DUP vote) despise everything you stand for.
It will hard enough to convince unionists to consent to a united Ireland if we genuine attempt to integrate their identity into such a nation, but if people are not willing to even try to meet them halfway, I can't see it ever happening. Attitudes such as your's, while honest and genuinely held, are going to be ultimately self-defeating, IMO.
QuoteIt will hard enough to convince unionists to consent to a united Ireland if we genuine attempt to integrate their identity into such a nation, but if people are not willing to even try to meet them halfway, I can't see it ever happening.
You are making the assumption that they wish to be met half way.
On a wider not, I fail to see how anyone who witnessed the rendition of the National Anthem before the England game at Croker, would try to argue that the Anthem should be abandoned completely.
I've said it before, there are a lot of people (even on this board) who seem to unknowingly foster and promote a pro English agenda. I believe they do this without knowing, they have been assimilated by national media and those who govern RTE and the airwaves, who would lead us to believe that it is wrong to express any form of Irishness. Some of the posts on this thread have been unbelievable.
Quote from: J70 on November 26, 2008, 03:32:38 AM
It will hard enough to convince unionists to consent to a united Ireland if we genuine attempt to integrate their identity into such a nation, but if people are not willing to even try to meet them halfway, I can't see it ever happening. Attitudes such as your's, while honest and genuinely held, are going to be ultimately self-defeating, IMO.
Didn't think it would happen on here but I agree entirely with you and a couple of others too :o
Winsamsonn, It isn't up to anyone to "break the fall of Unionists" or change anything. SS and GSTQ are just both irrelevant at an Ireland match. You need to grasp the basic reality and geography of Ireland. You'd do well to listen to some of the folk on here, because since I'm a Unionist people like you really help the cause and people will never be convinced to become nationalist and it will take a lot of convincing an awful lot of people to achieve your utopian never-never-Ireland ;D
Quote from: balladmaker on November 26, 2008, 09:37:17 AM
I believe they do this without knowing, they have been assimilated by national media and those who govern RTE and the airwaves, who would lead us to believe that it is wrong to express any form of Irishness.
Unionists are content with being Irish. They just don't like the type of Irishness that you perceive is the only Irishness.
QuoteUnionists are content with being Irish. They just don't like the type of Irishness that you perceive is the only Irishness.
So Unionists would rather impose their own form of 'Irishness' on the majority of the people of Ireland....says it all. I assume your form of Irishness would like to eradicate all Irish history except for the 1690 era. You see, the problem I believe you have is Irish people remembering Irish history. I can understand why Unionists would not want Irish history to be remembered, but history is history, it happened. No one has anything to fear from history......but I can see how it would make some people feel uncomfortable...
Quote from: balladmaker on November 26, 2008, 09:54:05 AM
So Unionists would rather impose their own form of 'Irishness' on the majority of the people of Ireland....says it all. I assume your form of Irishness would like to eradicate all Irish history except for the 1690 era. You see, the problem I believe you have is Irish people remembering Irish history. I can understand why Unionists would not want Irish history to be remembered, but history is history, it happened. No one has anything to fear from history......but I can see how it would make some people feel uncomfortable...
This is about current and future. Unionists are Irish. I'm certainly happy with that. Unionists are not trying to impose anything on anyone from the Republic of Ireland. In fact I'd imagine they really don't care what happens in a different country, I know I don't except when it comes to the IRFU of which I am a member of a member club. Being Irish is a wee bit more complicated than your simplistic form of Republican / Gaelic equals Irish and the Republic of Ireland equals Ireland. Wakey wakey.
Quote from: Roger on November 25, 2008, 02:43:16 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 25, 2008, 02:03:03 PM
dont know if this has been mentioned before, but my problem with the irelands call thing is that its cr*p
I tend to agree but that's a different issue.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 25, 2008, 02:03:03 PMhowever I am surprised that the unionist fraternity actually 'WANT' it at all given the reason for its title and where (rather micheviously) it got its name !
I don't have a problem with the title or where it got its name from. Why is it mischievous or what would the problem be?
well its so bad it could feature on xfactor etc etc
imo
as for the origins of the song, its laughed at round county Derry for being a quote from the 'Boys of the old brigade' song that many unionist/loyalist etc find offensive.
Though I'd agree with you that this isnt as its an old rebel song way outdating the recent 35 years wars.
Quote from: Roger on November 26, 2008, 10:10:11 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on November 26, 2008, 09:54:05 AM
So Unionists would rather impose their own form of 'Irishness' on the majority of the people of Ireland....says it all. I assume your form of Irishness would like to eradicate all Irish history except for the 1690 era. You see, the problem I believe you have is Irish people remembering Irish history. I can understand why Unionists would not want Irish history to be remembered, but history is history, it happened. No one has anything to fear from history......but I can see how it would make some people feel uncomfortable...
This is about current and future. Unionists are Irish. I'm certainly happy with that. Unionists are not trying to impose anything on anyone from the Republic of Ireland. In fact I'd imagine they really don't care what happens in a different country, I know I don't except when it comes to the IRFU of which I am a member of a member club. Being Irish is a wee bit more complicated than your simplistic form of Republican / Gaelic equals Irish and the Republic of Ireland equals Ireland. Wakey wakey.
jeez man, have a re-read of what you wrote
thats so 'a la carte' its prob over the edge into hypocrisy !
ya cant have it both ways !
:D
Roger we don't need you to tell anyone the components that make up an Irish identity. balladmaker is correct in what he is saying there are a lot of unionists, in the north particulary that hate the ground people that claim to be Irish walk on. Fair enough roger you may be irish but there are a lot of people that would claim they are british. I will ask you Roger what passport do you have?? If you claim to be Irish surely it would make sense to have an Irish one.Or are you Irish for the sake of this argument or when it suits.
J70 you are still making the assumption that we have to convince Unionists to consent to an united Ireland. I fail to see this at all because you will never make them consent to a united Ireland. That is it in plain and simple terms. They are by nature stubborn and defiant and their ideology dictates that they remain loyal to the union of Britain. can you not understand this?? They don't aspire to be Irish.
Gnevin, in case you missed it the first time. I don't need to ask anyone on another thread whether or not they are unionists. I know from primary experience what constitutes unionism. Granted there are some Unionists that claim they are irish like Roger, however how can one claim to be loyal to a union whilst at the same time claim to belong to another Nationality??. A nationlity that has cultures that are totally alien to that of what you aspire to be. Surely you can understand what i am saying . :o
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 26, 2008, 10:47:57 AM
Roger we don't need you to tell anyone the components that make up an Irish identity. balladmaker is correct in what he is saying there are a lot of unionists, in the north particulary that hate the ground people that claim to be Irish walk on. Fair enough roger you may be irish but there are a lot of people that would claim they are british. I will ask you Roger what passport do you have?? If you claim to be Irish surely it would make sense to have an Irish one.Or are you Irish for the sake of this argument or when it suits.
I'm happy to say I'm from Ireland. It is where I live. I consider myself to be British first and foremost but by the Grace of God from Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is just a region of the UK. I am from Belfast and I am proud of that too but that's just homing in on a smaller location the same way as more Irishness or Northern Irishness is just a micro. My view on Irishness is different from your's but you like the simplistic Irishness = Gaelic/Republican and Republic of Ireland = Ireland. My view, not uncommon for many Irish people, is no less relevant unless it is necessary to impose a single brand of Irishness linked strongly to a Political ethos.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 26, 2008, 10:44:12 AM
jeez man, have a re-read of what you wrote
thats so 'a la carte' its prob over the edge into hypocrisy !
ya cant have it both ways !
:D
In a non-Political organisation to leave out all Political trappings is the correct thing to do.
Let Ireland play another match in Belfast (part of Ireland) and see what having it both ways and what hypocrisy is.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 26, 2008, 10:43:04 AM
as for the origins of the song, its laughed at round county Derry for being a quote from the 'Boys of the old brigade' song that many unionist/loyalist etc find offensive.
Though I'd agree with you that this isnt as its an old rebel song way outdating the recent 35 years wars.
The four words "To Answer Ireland's Call" is bound to be in some old rebel song as there are so bloody many of them. It isn't offensive to me and I've never heard anyone say it's offensive. Ireland's Call describes Ireland as a country which I've heard some people say it isn't a country. The pedantics of that are lost on me and I find no harm in the song. I just find not much interest in the song to be honest. I'd prefer if Ireland ran out and got on with the game rather than the current absolute bollocks that is performed.
Jesus Christ this is so depressing. I don't think there's any hope for us, to be honest.
Roger the question is not whether you live on the Island of Ireland. The question is are you Irish and you are clearly not. It is difficult to have dual nationality (though it is legally possible). I know folk that have two passports and the claim to have dual nationality but again this is a contradiction. No one yet on this thread has said that you weren't from Ireland because i am from The North of Ireland like yourself and i am from Ireland. I am struggling to find the reasons that make you Irish. You say my view is simplisitc, yet you fail to highlight the points that make you Irish. If you would list them i would be interested to see them.
As i have said there are a lot of different elements of being Irish or indeed any national identity. I am well aware that it is not solely based on the Republic and gaelic. But one thing is for sure, you cannot claim to be Irish, whilst you have a distain for the history and culture of the nation and all it encompasses. If you fail to recognise that many people in Ireland are part of a 32 county Island (which would be the thinking of many in the north) There are also many people in the north that belive that there are only 26 counties in Ireland and i conceed they are legally correct. But to then say that people of this thinking are Irish is complete nonsense. They claim to be British, not Irish. They see their history alongside that of empires and world wars. they have a lot of links with Ulster scots and they even have their own separate language.
At the drop of a hat they try to outlaw the Irish language and culture, they attack gaelic football grounds and pitches. they have a distain for the catholic church, they fly the British flag over public building in a society that some anglicised southerners on here will have you believe is a state all inclusive and equal. They do this because they see themselves as British nd they have a dislike for anything that is Irish. These people are no more irish than the Queen. They simply share no common ground nor show a willingness to join with the people of Ireland both North and South of the border. the sooner some folk on here waken up and realise this the better and stop staring through the tainted glasses of the media which tells us the bomb and bullet has gone and we are all one. The simple fact is that we are not all one. We are two different sets of identities living on the one Island. I am fine with that. I can live with the fact that protestants have their own cultures and sports and the rest and i would never want to infringe on them. But i certainly don't expect to have to dillute my identity for a group that are unwilling to play ball in the first place.
oh and hardy you will know then not to come back into this thread as it is so depressing for you.
Ballbags the lot of ya...
In what is (or should be) a new dispensation in Irish politics, I still can't quite believe some of the stuff being repeated here by the likes of Winsamsoon and Balladmaker. In particular, when they start sentences with phrases such as "Unionists think...", I wonder which Unionists they have been speaking to, or where they get their information from.
For there seems to be an unyielding underlying premise to all their thinking which demands that being "Irish" can only mean being Nationalist/Republican/Gaelic etc, with anyone who doesn't fit that profile being something else vague, undefined and worthless (or worse).
Well I have news for such people. I am as Irish as they or anyone else. And the fact that my politics may differ from the majority of Irish people alters that not one iota, since I do not live my life with reference to what Party or political mindset I may identify with, still less with any Party or mindset others may identify me with.
Which is why I was always happy to embrace the Ireland rugby team as my own. Granted, I have never been nearly as big a rugby fan as I am of soccer, which is bred in the bone for me. But I did go to a rugby school, played for the school team for a couple of years and have since maintained my interest in the game generally, and Irish rugby in particular, if mostly via TV and the papers etc. So that when I could get tickets, I would happily go off to Lansdowne for 6 Nations games etc (plus the odd trip to Twickenham, Cardiff or Paris). Of course, for those games in Dublin, they play the SS and fly the Tricolour, but it never bothered me to stand respectfully to attention, since I was really only there for the game and the crack generally. (If I ever want to demonstrate or protest my politics, then I guess I can always attend a political demonstration or protest!).
Moreover, I always understood that such trappings were a combination of the historical, the traditional and the anachronistic, so not worth getting bothered about. What was important about the 15 guys on the pitch and the fellow fans around me was not what their politics were, or which part of the island they came from etc; rather it was that we were all Irish together, united in our desire to knock the crap out of 15 Englishmen (or Jocks, Taffs or Frogs etc). And even if we couldn't - as was usually the case - we none of us ever forgot what should be the true state of Irish rugby: "Hopeless, but not Serious!"
Yet you will have noticed my use of the past tense. What has changed, so as to prevent me using the present tense? Simply, whilst I am still Irish and still a rugby fan, I am no longer a fan of the Ireland rugby team. And why should this be? Well as I think about it, I can honestly say this was not actually my choice; rather, it was a choice which I feel was forced upon me (a lack of choice, if you like).
And as is so often the case in matters Irish, this change was politically inspired, more specifically over the issue of political flags and emblems. You see, when I formerly stood under the Tricolour whilst The SS was being played at Lansdowne, insofar as I ever even thought about it (and I didn't, in truth), I would have rationalised this by saying that these arrangements were in force because they reflected the jurisdiction in which the game was being played. So that by the same principle, if Ireland should ever play a game in Northern Ireland, then protocol and precedent should require the NI flag to be flown and GSTQ to be played.
Now before Winsamsoon et al blow a gasket, let me say that I would have had no desire whatever to hear GSTQ played as the home anthem for an Ireland rugby match, as had been done for games in Belfast up until 1950(?). But seeing as there was no prospect of Ravenhill ever hosting an Ireland game anyhow, then it was all academic, which suited me fine.
At least it was so until Lansdowne was closed for rebuilding and it was decided to play Italy at Ravenhill! Now I never really imagined that they would play GSTQ before this game, nor would I have wanted it (I don't even want it played before NI soccer games - I would much prefer a distinctively Norn Iron anthem). But this seemed to me to be the perfect opportunity to address this thorny, but hardly critical issue and sort it for once and for all. As such, I imagined that this would be the excuse the IRFU needed to announce that in future, only Ireland's Call would be played at home games, as is the case with away games. Now once again, I should explain that I am not a great fan of IC, but that is for reasons to do with the song itself, not the sentiment behind it. None of which was ever truly important to me, since I was really only there for the game, not the preliminaries. And as such, if the IRFU decided to continue with a playing of the "Presidential Salute" whenever he/she was present, then fair enough - I for one would not disrespect it (even when it is for Oul Nazihunter herself, President McAleese! ;))
But when the IRFU announced that IC would be the only anthem played for the Italy game only, and that the arrangements for games played in Dublin would continue unchanged, I was dismayed. And even then, they might just have sneaked that one past me on its own (I wasn't able to attend, anyhow), had they not also released a Statement via a Spokesperson, whereby she announced that "Only IC would be played, in accordance with the protocol for all games played outside Ireland" (or somesuch - the "outside Ireland" bit is certain).
This had to be unacceptable to me, since in deeming Belfast to be "outside Ireland", such a contrivance went far over the boundary of oversight, omission or carelessness, and into the territory of deliberate insult. For I had always considered that the protocol that GSTQ would be played for games in Belfast to be a bit like the IRFU giving NI/Ulster a cheque, which we all knew would never be cashed. Until Lansdowne was suddenly unavailable and the cheque was suddenly current. In which case, the obvious course of action would have been to ask for the cheque to be torn up, as part of a rescheduling of the original "debt". But no, the IRFU simply dishonoured the cheque, said "Eff Off" to anyone who dared to question what they'd done, and blithely sought to carry on as before.
Which is where I came back in. Frankly, I would have been entirely happy for Ulster Rugby to have written off the "debt" i.e. not play GSTQ, had there been even some token acknowledgement by the IRFU in return. But not only did they not even consider doing so, but they added insult to injury by informing me that I no longer counted, since I am, by their reckoning, no longer "Irish". After all, where I come from, indeed was born and brought up, was suddenly no longer in Ireland, but "outside".
Which left me with the unavoidable conclusion that if they insist I am no longer "Irish", then I can no longer owe any allegiance or affiliation to the Irish rugby team. :o
Which is where "the strangest turn of this whole concern" arises. Granted the Irish team has underperformed badly in recent years. Granted the number of Ulster players involved is fewer than I can ever remember. And granted that rugby was only ever second in my sporting affections after soccer. Nonetheless, I would always have imagined that such a decision would be a bit of a wrench, since whatever the state of play, I had always enjoyed my rugby weekends, and had always felt entirely connected, and included on equal terms with every other Ireland fan.
Yet since that rejection (effectively) by the IRFU, I actually haven't missed them one damned bit. Of course, I still keep an eye on their progress in the papers etc, and still lament the con-trick that is Ronan O'Gara's claim to "greatness", but I no longer even set the DVD recorder for their games, never mind make a point of watching live. So that whether they win, lose or draw is of no greater consequence to me than any other international rugby team. In the end, if they don't want me, then not only do I not want them, but neither do I need them, either.
Whose loss, eh?
P.S. In reacting as I've done, I should acknowledge that I am in a small minority of rugby fans in NI, with the more committed ones (such as Roger and MikeRob) overwhelmingly having determined to stick with the team regardless, whilst they lobby for change. Which imo is fair enough; indeed I wish them well, even if I fear they are p1ssing against a strong (Southerly) wind. :(
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 26, 2008, 11:52:09 AM
Roger the question is not whether you live on the Island of Ireland. The question is are you Irish and you are clearly not. It is difficult to have dual nationality (though it is legally possible). I know folk that have two passports and the claim to have dual nationality but again this is a contradiction. No one yet on this thread has said that you weren't from Ireland because i am from The North of Ireland like yourself and i am from Ireland. I am struggling to find the reasons that make you Irish. You say my view is simplisitc, yet you fail to highlight the points that make you Irish. If you would list them i would be interested to see them.
As i have said there are a lot of different elements of being Irish or indeed any national identity. I am well aware that it is not solely based on the Republic and gaelic. But one thing is for sure, you cannot claim to be Irish, whilst you have a distain for the history and culture of the nation and all it encompasses. If you fail to recognise that many people in Ireland are part of a 32 county Island (which would be the thinking of many in the north) There are also many people in the north that belive that there are only 26 counties in Ireland and i conceed they are legally correct. But to then say that people of this thinking are Irish is complete nonsense. They claim to be British, not Irish. They see their history alongside that of empires and world wars. they have a lot of links with Ulster scots and they even have their own separate language.
At the drop of a hat they try to outlaw the Irish language and culture, they attack gaelic football grounds and pitches. they have a distain for the catholic church, they fly the British flag over public building in a society that some anglicised southerners on here will have you believe is a state all inclusive and equal. They do this because they see themselves as British nd they have a dislike for anything that is Irish. These people are no more irish than the Queen. They simply share no common ground nor show a willingness to join with the people of Ireland both North and South of the border. the sooner some folk on here waken up and realise this the better and stop staring through the tainted glasses of the media which tells us the bomb and bullet has gone and we are all one. The simple fact is that we are not all one. We are two different sets of identities living on the one Island. I am fine with that. I can live with the fact that protestants have their own cultures and sports and the rest and i would never want to infringe on them. But i certainly don't expect to have to dillute my identity for a group that are unwilling to play ball in the first place.
oh and hardy you will know then not to come back into this thread as it is so depressing for you.
I was born in Ireland, I live in Ireland, I have never lived anywhere else. Am I Irish? I think I am. I live in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and therefore I am British. I have a British passport and I never have had a problem traveling with it. But if it makes sense to get a passport from some other state stupid enough to give out passports for people not from there then I would see no slight on my nationality by traveling under a so-called Irish, Israeli or Iraqi or passport if it made sense to do so. I'm still British and I'm still Irish. The best bit of this regional issue is that I am Northern Irish which I am very proud about when I'm with other British people or other Irish people. I'm sure a lot of people are proud about their region. Not least within GAA circles with all this county pride melarkey.
However, all that chat is you simply trying to justify a United Irish people, culture and Politics which is your disturbing preference not mine. It has feck all to do with the IRFU and the anthem that represents the team. For years the IRFU has recognised that there are those within the team who have divided views on the subject of Ireland but the IRFU has survived partition simply because the IRFU is about the sport of rugby in Ireland, not all that irrelevant bollocks that you wish to force onto the debate and Politicise the whole thing.
eveil genious you have written that well lad and i am honstly not banging on about this with you lads because i am bigot or anything like that. I have respect for Unionists/ Protestant or whatever grouping you would like to put folk into. In many ways i agree with what you are posting. I acknowledge that there are a lot of Ireland Rugby fans from a Unionist background and fair play till them. They are fully entitled to follow Ireland as they are infact born on the Island of Ireland. I understand that you a merley there for the sporting occassion and there are a lot like you and in truth in normal societies this should always be the case. Sport should always be above politcal debate and issues of less important. The IRFU should never have turned around and thrown it back in the faces of the people in the North particularly that are trying to bridge a gap. I realise this and i would say that yourself and Roger are probably lads that are just in it for the sport and religion and politcs don't matter at all.
However you have stated that your decision is based on equality and that is fair enough all you wnated was a fair crack of the whip. But this argument has now turned into a political debate about national identities ( and i must say it was probably me that took it there) My problem as i have stated is concerning how people can call themselves Irish when they have no connection to the nation of Ireland in terms of culture or beliefs. I don't really have time now to get into it but i shall be back as Arnie would say.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 26, 2008, 12:19:21 PM
eveil genious you have written that well lad and i am honstly not banging on about this with you lads because i am bigot or anything like that. I have respect for Unionists/ Protestant or whatever grouping you would like to put folk into. In many ways i agree with what you are posting. I acknowledge that there are a lot of Ireland Rugby fans from a Unionist background and fair play till them. They are fully entitled to follow Ireland as they are infact born on the Island of Ireland. I understand that you a merley there for the sporting occassion and there are a lot like you and in truth in normal societies this should always be the case. Sport should always be above politcal debate and issues of less important. The IRFU should never have turned around and thrown it back in the faces of the people in the North particularly that are trying to bridge a gap. I realise this and i would say that yourself and Roger are probably lads that are just in it for the sport and religion and politcs don't matter at all.
However you have stated that your decision is based on equality and that is fair enough all you wnated was a fair crack of the whip. .
With you up to there...
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 26, 2008, 12:19:21 PM
But this argument has now turned into a political debate about national identities ( and i must say it was probably me that took it there)
True.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 26, 2008, 12:19:21 PM
My problem as i have stated is concerning how people can call themselves Irish when they have no connection to the nation of Ireland in terms of culture or beliefs.
No. Your problem is that you cannot conceive of any vision of "Irishness" other than one which automatically and inherently encompasses your own particular version of what it is to be "Irish" i.e. an essentially politicised, even racially-based* one. Which is about as logical or acceptable as saying that ice cream can only be vanilla, or potato crisps ready salted, since those were the first flavours developed.
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 26, 2008, 12:19:21 PM
I don't really have time now to get into it but i shall be back as Arnie would say.
Is there any point?
* - I am not calling you "racist" when I say that; rather, I am referring to the concept of "Gaelicness", as in ahem, the Gaelic Athletic Association, for instance...
Quote from: Roger on November 26, 2008, 12:07:01 PM
I have a British passport and I never have had a problem traveling with it. But if it makes sense to get a passport from some other state stupid enough to give out passports for people not from there then I would see no slight on my nationality by traveling under a so-called Irish, Israeli or Iraqi or passport
So the reason the Irish government give Irish passports to Nationalists born in the North is that they are stupid ::)
Classy Roger. I'll remember that statement next time you claim to be victimised here for being a Unionist.
*I'd stayed out of this one as I dont have any interest in Rugby, but comments like this deserve the attention they draw to the poster.
Quote from: his holiness nb on November 26, 2008, 01:48:32 PM
So the reason the Irish government give Irish passports to Nationalists born in the North is that they are stupid ::)
Your words not mine. The Republic of Ireland issues Unionists passports too. I'd take one if it was necessary and I'd take an Israeli or Iraqi one too if those governments want to dish out a travel document and it made sense for me.
Quote from: his holiness nb on November 26, 2008, 01:48:32 PMClassy Roger. I'll remember that statement next time you claim to be victimised here for being a Unionist.
I haven't claimed victimhood. Why does everyone have to be a victim???
Quote from: Roger on November 26, 2008, 01:53:15 PM
Your words not mine.
Roger, dont be sneaky, this is exactly what you indicated in your last post as I highlighted.
Quote from: his holiness nb on November 26, 2008, 01:56:05 PM
Roger, dont be sneaky, this is exactly what you indicated in your last post as I highlighted.
I didn't say anything about the ROI giving out passports to people on the basis of their Political opinion or their reasons for doing so. I do think if governments are going to issue travel documents to people outside their jurisdiction who were never from that jurisdiction it is indeed foolish. That said, I would avail of the document if it made sense to me regardless of the reason for that state doing it.
Good man yourself, I guess the other posters can decide for themselves on the intentions of your post.
Quote from: his holiness nb on November 26, 2008, 01:48:32 PM
Quote from: Roger on November 26, 2008, 12:07:01 PM
I have a British passport and I never have had a problem traveling with it. But if it makes sense to get a passport from some other state stupid enough to give out passports for people not from there then I would see no slight on my nationality by traveling under a so-called Irish, Israeli or Iraqi or passport
So the reason the Irish government give Irish passports to Nationalists born in the North is that they are stupid ::)
We all know why the Irish Government gives out passports to anyone - even Jackie McDonald :o - who was born in NI: it is a political statement. And, of course, they are entitled to do so. However, as someone who does not share their politics, but might conceivably avail of such a Passport himself in certain circumstances, I perhaps would not call this "stupid", but neither would I call it "clever", either.
For as a political statement, it is a mere symbolic gesture, rather than an effective measure. Further, clever Governments do not generally afford privileges to someone without expecting duties in return. Yet NI-born and resident Irish Nationals will never have been subject to Taxation in the Republic, or liable for any form of National Service, or even accountable for e.g. parking tickets incurred in the Republic (at least without the co-operation of the UK Government in enforcing them etc.)
Moreover, the Constitutional claim to NI of which this Passport situation is but a part, was not only incapable of ever being effected by the Republic's own efforts, but actually was counter-productive, since it so angered NI's Unionists, that it only made them (Unionists) ever more determined to reject the case for a United Ireland.
Finally, as I understand it, when the State's founding fathers first settled upon this policy, they were not clever enough to envisage that others from outside Ireland might one day take advantage of their liberal citizenship laws, e.g. by mothers contriving to have a baby on Irish soil, thereby giving themselves and their spouse brand new citizenship rights in the Republic (and by extension, the EU), hence the need to change the Constitution to exclude this.
Anyhow, perhaps you should start a separate thread on the subject, including cutting and pasting this reply to it, so that we don't get too far off the topic of rugby on this thread?
Quote from: his holiness nb on November 26, 2008, 02:04:10 PM
Good man yourself, I guess the other posters can decide for themselves on the intentions of your post.
Whatever else, I know enough of Roger to know that he is as committed to Irish rugby as anyone else on this Board. Therefore, he will not knowingly want to deviate from a topic (rugby) which is so dear to him.
Others, of course, might be happy to see this thread distracted from the considered, informed and salient points Roger was making on the subject of rugby generally, and Ireland's Call in particular... ::)
Ive read a few of the comments from ones thinking "only one side seems to be making any compromise"
What are all these compromises? Is it more than the not playing of the SS?
Roger i think i will call it a day on this one lad as we seem to be constantly repeating what we are saying and then the whole issue is getting of the point. So it was a decent debate and to our credit we kept it fairly uncontroversial. Till the next sticky wicket. ;)
Never, Never, Never...lol ;D
you're a bad child :o
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 26, 2008, 03:08:18 PM
Roger i think i will call it a day on this one lad as we seem to be constantly repeating what we are saying and then the whole issue is getting of the point. So it was a decent debate and to our credit we kept it fairly uncontroversial. Till the next sticky wicket. ;)
Sure only for 10 odd pages..........
Congrats to Roger
So about Ireland's Call and the forsaking of the one true National Anthem of Ireland...all together now....1....2....3......(EG and Roger, if you require phonetics, just let me know)
Ás Gaeilge:
Amhrán na bhFiann
Seo dhibh a cháirde duan Óglaigh,
Cathréimeach briomhar ceolmhar,
Á r dtinte cnámh go buacach táid,
'S an spéir go min réaltogach
Is fonnmhar faobhrach sinn chun gleo
'S go tiúnmhar glé roimh thíocht do'n ló
Fé chiúnas chaomh na hoiche ar seol:
Seo libh canaídh Amhrán na bhFiann
Curfá
Sinne Fianna Fáil
A tá fé gheall ag Éirinn, buion dár slua
Thar toinn do ráinig chugainn,
Fé mhóid bheith saor.
Sean tír ár sinsir feasta
Ní fhagfar fé'n tiorán ná fé'n tráil
Anocht a théam sa bhearna bhaoil,
Le gean ar Ghaeil chun báis nó saoil
Le guna screach fé lámhach na bpiléar
Seo libh canaídh Amhrán na bhFiann.
Cois bánta réidhe, ar árdaibh sléibhe,
Ba bhuachach ár sinsir romhainn,
Ag lámhach go tréan fé'n sár-bhrat séin
Tá thuas sa ghaoith go seolta
Ba dhúchas riamh d'ár gcine cháidh
Gan iompáil siar ó imirt áir,
'S ag siúl mar iad i gcoinne námhad
Seo libh, canaídh Amhrán na bhFiann
Curfá
A bhuíon nách fann d'fhuil Ghaeil is Gall,
Sin breacadh lae na saoirse,
Ta scéimhle 's scanradh i gcroíthe namhad,
Roimh ranna laochra ár dtire.
Ár dtinte is tréith gan spréach anois,
Sin luisne ghlé san spéir anoir,
'S an bíobha i raon na bpiléar agaibh:
Seo libh, canaídh Amhrán na bh Fiann.
Curfá
Quote from: balladmaker on November 26, 2008, 04:00:41 PM
So about Ireland's Call and the forsaking of the one true National Anthem of Ireland...all together now....1....2....3......(EG and Roger, if you require phonetics, just let me know)
Ás Gaeilge:
Amhrán na bhFiann
Phonetics? No thanks, but I wouldn't mind an Ulster Scots version - it might even qualify me for some sort of grant... ;)
P.S. When last I saw Ireland play at Twickenham (3 years ago?), I went with an English mate. To his right was a Corkman (by the sound of his accent). By his banter, he wasn't overly fond of the English etc (though it wasn't excessive). Anyhow, when my rugby anthem (Ireland's Call) was played, I wound up my English mate by singing it loudly in his ear. This amused "Corkie". He wasn't so amused when I then stood up again and sang my
National Anthem (GSTQ) equally loudly, though my (slightly confused) English friend understood enough of the joke to smile at Corkie's discomfort! ;)
P.P.S. On reflection, this is the only time I can recall singing GSTQ in the last 30-odd years...
Quote from: Evil Genius on November 26, 2008, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on November 26, 2008, 02:04:10 PM
Good man yourself, I guess the other posters can decide for themselves on the intentions of your post.
Whatever else, I know enough of Roger to know that he is as committed to Irish rugby as anyone else on this Board. Therefore, he will not knowingly want to deviate from a topic (rugby) which is so dear to him.
Others, of course, might be happy to see this thread distracted from the considered, informed and salient points Roger was making on the subject of rugby generally, and Ireland's Call in particular... ::)
Ok, time for his holiness to back warily away
P.P.S. On reflection, this is the only time I can recall singing GSTQ in the last 30-odd years...
[/quote]
Who you trying to kid saan...you sing it every July ;) :D
Quote from: winsamsoon on November 26, 2008, 10:47:57 AM
J70 you are still making the assumption that we have to convince Unionists to consent to an united Ireland. I fail to see this at all because you will never make them consent to a united Ireland. That is it in plain and simple terms. They are by nature stubborn and defiant and their ideology dictates that they remain loyal to the union of Britain. can you not understand this?? They don't aspire to be Irish.
I haven't been back to this thread in a while due to job issues and the US holiday period...
I fail to see how Ireland will ever be reunited if we insist, a priori, that any gestures or attempts to persuade unionists of the benefits of a united Ireland are going to be wasted and thus not worth the effort. Am I to presume that you have given up on reunification ever happening or that you would be content for the unionists to be annexed into a reunited nationalist Ireland against the will of the majority of their people?
Quote from: balladmaker on November 26, 2008, 09:37:17 AM
QuoteIt will hard enough to convince unionists to consent to a united Ireland if we genuine attempt to integrate their identity into such a nation, but if people are not willing to even try to meet them halfway, I can't see it ever happening.
You are making the assumption that they wish to be met half way.
I'm not making any assumptions about their wishes. I'm merely stating the fact that bigger gestures than this will be necessary in order to persuade unionists of the merits of a united Ireland. If people such as yourself think that reunification is an impossibility due to unionist intransigence and that such gestures are thus futile, fair enough.
Quote from: balladmaker on November 26, 2008, 09:37:17 AM
On a wider not, I fail to see how anyone who witnessed the rendition of the National Anthem before the England game at Croker, would try to argue that the Anthem should be abandoned completely.
And I'm sure unionists get similarly teared up at a stirring version of GSTQ. So what? If AnbF is played at Croker because it is the anthem of the hosting country, then play GSTQ (or any other anthem NI nominates in the future) at games in the north. Or play neither.
Quote from: balladmaker on November 26, 2008, 09:37:17 AM
I've said it before, there are a lot of people (even on this board) who seem to unknowingly foster and promote a pro English agenda. I believe they do this without knowing, they have been assimilated by national media and those who govern RTE and the airwaves, who would lead us to believe that it is wrong to express any form of Irishness.
I have no idea if I'm one of the "brainwashed" to whom this is addressed. But just in case, I have nowhere expressed an opinion that "it is wrong to express any form of Irishness". I don't remember anyone else doing so either. Unless my willingness to have the rugby team use a neutral anthem as a gesture of inclusivity is a form of this perceived persecution, in which case I really think that those who see themselves as suffering this injury need to get a grip of themselves.
Quote from: balladmaker on November 26, 2008, 09:37:17 AM
Some of the posts on this thread have been unbelievable.
I agree (for different reasons obviously).
Quote from: J70 on December 01, 2008, 04:39:03 AM
I have no idea if I'm one of the "brainwashed" to whom this is addressed. But just in case, I have nowhere expressed an opinion that "it is wrong to express any form of Irishness". I don't remember anyone else doing so either. Unless my willingness to have the rugby team use a neutral anthem as a gesture of inclusivity is a form of this perceived persecution, in which case I really think that those who see themselves as suffering this injury need to get a grip of themselves.
I appreciate your stance on this issue, J70 - if those in the upper echelons of Irish rugby currently were so fair-minded, there wouldn't be a problem.
But I have highlighted one phrase in your post which caught my attention. By adopting a "neutral anthem as a gesture of inclusivity", the clear implication is that this would be "Irish Rugby" as a whole making a gesture towards Northern Unionists etc
But however well-meaning, can't you see that Northern Unionists "own" Irish Rugby just as much (or as little) as e.g. Southern Nationalists etc? (Or should do, at least.) As such, playing a neutral anthem should be just as much a "gesture" towards the latter as towards the former.
Which in a way, sums up the whole sorry mess which the sport has got itself into (imo). For as long as I can remember, supporting Ireland in rugby was something entirely natural for someone like me to do, alongside all my fellow Irish men and women. I did not see it as making me any "more Irish" or "less British" etc, since I simply never defined my support for the team in political terms, nor was I required to do so by anyone else.
However, that is not how I see the game now. From what I observe, the onset of professionalism in rugby union originally led the powers that be (correctly) to conclude that Irish rugby would struggle to maintain four fully-professional teams, to compete in the Magners and Heineken etc, and also to contribute international-quality players to the Ireland team. So first poor Connacht was effectively cast aside, and now we see Ulster being marginalised, as Munster and Leinster establish their dominance over senior rugby on the island. Which from a purely professional club point of view actually makes sense, since there is no point in dissipating limited resources on one or two struggling teams at the expense of two more successful teams who could better utilise them.
However, the effect of this shift of power within Professional club rugby has
also been transferred to the international team, which is now basically seen as a Munster/Leinster select, with the odd Ulster player thrown in. One of the results of this shift in ethos is seen, for example, in the way money has been found by the IRFU to keep star players like Brian O'Driscoll playing his club rugby for Leinster, rather than follow the money to England or France etc. Similarly, I get the impression that they were determined to keep O'Gara with Munster, but wouldn't have cared had David Humphries gone to England, as his brother did.
And I would be interested to compare IRFU funding for Thomond with that allocated to redeveloping Ravenhill (or selling Ravenhill to help fund a new, larger ground for Ulster rugby elsewhere in NI). Of course Munster rugby is on a high - and long may it continue. But this overlooks the fact that for more than the first century of its existence, Ulster's position amongst the Irish Provinces was at least as eminent as either Leinster or Munster. Normally, of course, these things come in cycles; for example, Ulster was the first Irish team to win the Heineken Cup, as recently as nine years ago, and with 13 Ulster-born players, plus a completely assimilated Kiwi who represented Ireland, and one solitary non-Irish player.
However, the way things are going at the moment, if Ulster don't somehow close the gap within the next few years, I fear that the IRFU's prioritisation (bias?) will see Ulster permanently left behind by M & L, to the long-term detriment of the game in the northern Province.
Then again, maybe the IRFU don't actually care, since they described that place as being "outside Ireland" >:(
Agree EG. Stopping the insulting of any jurisdiction or Political ethos of anyone is not something to feel good about. It should happen immediately. The fact that this insult takes place is disgraceful at a sporting event where no Politics are appropriate, but the bi-product is a very sour taster about a different Irish ethos.
Quote from: Roger on December 01, 2008, 02:08:03 PM
Agree EG. Stopping the insulting of any jurisdiction or Political ethos of anyone is not something to feel good about. It should happen immediately. The fact that this insult takes place is disgraceful at a sporting event where no Politics are appropriate, but the bi-product is a very sour taster about a different Irish ethos.
The difficulty is, however, that unless Ulster protests more forcefully than they have (haven't, actually >:() to date, then the IRFU simply will not change; rather it will go on insulting UR.
Sadly, however, I don't see any prospect of a meaningful protest, for a raft of reasons.
First, no curreent/prospective international player from Ulster is going to stick his head above the parapet, since it would likely be career suicide to complain about the people who (effectively)sign his wages cheque every month.
Moreover, with so few Ulster players currently in contention, whether justifiable or not, a player protest from Ulster could easily be ignored by Dublin. (A change from the days of Willie John McBride and Mike Gibson, for example)
Further, the hierarchy of Ulster Rugby seem prepared to bend over and take it up the jaxsy, for whatever reason*, rather than speaking out forcefully.
And the weakness of Ulster clubs within the All-Ireland League reduces the leverage of a grassroots protest, as well.
And if rugby
fans from NI responded by withdrawing their support, no doubt the IRFU would take the line of least resistance i.e. measure whether any concession to Ulster rugby might antagonise more people from the politicised elements in Munster (esp?) and Leinster. Besides, in the end they know that they will have no difficulty in filling 50k seats at LR from amongst ROI-based fans, or selling corporate packages in an economy (ROI) which is so much bigger and wealthier than that of NI.
Basically, they're doing all this for the same reason as dogs lick their balls: because they can! :o
* - Is it correct that Reid acceded to the IRFU's request not to play GSTQ at Ravenhill and/or play IC only at all home internationals, as well as away ones, in return for Ulster Rugby getting to control all the ticket sales? If so, he is a disgrace.
Mike Reid and Ulster Rugby were right to not play the National Anthem in Belfast. National Anthems should not be played for Ireland games anywhere as there isn't one. Reid heads up a rugby administration spanning two jurisdictions but HQ-ed in one. I don't think he should have got involved in the Political debate. However, there needs to be more protest from those who are opposed to the insulting republican arrogance within the IRFU but there is just a lack of will to get involved in anything Political. I spoke to the President of my club about tackling the issue with the Branch/Union and his answer was "fcuk I don't need that shitstorm landing on the club, there is enough to do without that'. It just isn't a big enough issue to tackle within what is largely an amateur sport until the Provincial Club level. That said he doesn't like being insulted and told me he sings GSTQ while the SS is being played and feels quite content with that even though most of those he is with sing the Sash. Hardly good for relations within Irish rugby :-\
there was me thinking the majority and democracy rule
its ok when its in the juristicion of ni, but once its applied to a greater majority populous, the rules change !
hypocricy !
:D
Quote from: Roger on December 01, 2008, 02:47:36 PM
Mike Reid and Ulster Rugby were right to not play the National Anthem in Belfast. National Anthems should not be played for Ireland games anywhere as there isn't one. Reid heads up a rugby administration spanning two jurisdictions but HQ-ed in one.
Agreed.
Quote from: Roger on December 01, 2008, 02:47:36 PM
I don't think he should have got involved in the Political debate.
Such a "head in the sand" position is not an option. The fact is, a political decision was foisted upon UR and as President, it should be up to him to show leadership in representing his Members. He failed, and apparently for the worst of reasons - money.
Quote from: Roger on December 01, 2008, 02:47:36 PM
However, there needs to be more protest from those who are opposed to the insulting republican arrogance within the IRFU but there is just a lack of will to get involved in anything Political. I spoke to the President of my club about tackling the issue with the Branch/Union and his answer was "fcuk I don't need that shitstorm landing on the club, there is enough to do without that'. It just isn't a big enough issue to tackle within what is largely an amateur sport until the Provincial Club level.
The "lack of will to get involved in anything Political" is effectively a policy of appeasement, and as Churchill once famously said: 'an appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile in the futile hope that it will eat him last'...
Quote from: Roger on December 01, 2008, 02:47:36 PM
That said he doesn't like being insulted and told me he sings GSTQ while the SS is being played and feels quite content with that even though most of those he is with sing the Sash.
Possibly the most bone-headed reaction it is possible to take, since it will have no positive effect on the Blazers in the IRFU, but can only serve to entrench further the obduracy of the Republican elements in Irish rugby. ::)
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 01, 2008, 02:53:04 PM
there was me thinking the majority and democracy rule
its ok when its in the juristicion of ni, but once its applied to a greater majority populous, the rules change !
hypocricy !
:D
So doubtless you will be content to hear GSTQ played to represent the British & Irish Lions team during their tour of South Africa next year, then? And you are equally content to hear GSTQ being played as the anthem before NI soccer games. Or when NI provides a majority of players for the Ireland cricket team?
"Hypocricy"? You can't even spell the word... ::)
Quote from: Evil Genius on November 26, 2008, 02:20:19 PM
We all know why the Irish Government gives out passports to anyone - even Jackie McDonald :o - who was born in NI: it is a political statement.
The "we all" you refer to probably don't know anything but their own smell.
QuoteAnd, of course, they are entitled to do so. However, as someone who does not share their politics, but might conceivably avail of such a Passport himself in certain circumstances, I perhaps would not call this "stupid", but neither would I call it "clever", either
Since when does sharing a political ethos be the main outstanding criteria for accepting one's birthright to an Irish passport.
To be Irish is not a political statement or a political belief.
QuoteFor as a political statement, it is a mere symbolic gesture, rather than an effective measure.
It is more than a political statement and as a gesture let those who have availed of it speak and define the symbolism of it.
Quotewhen the State's founding fathers first settled upon this policy, they were not clever enough to envisage that others from outside Ireland might one day take advantage of their liberal citizenship laws, e.g. by mothers contriving to have a baby on Irish soil, thereby giving themselves and their spouse brand new citizenship rights in the Republic (and by extension, the EU), hence the need to change the Constitution to exclude this.
Generally it is difficult to be clever enough to envisage the future in 80 year time.
Who knows what the British gov would have decided as best course of action 90 years ago if they knew what a balls they were going to make of it..
QuoteAnyhow, perhaps you should start a separate thread on the subject,
Perhaps, you should have done it before landing your reply.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 01, 2008, 02:53:04 PM
there was me thinking the majority and democracy rule
its ok when its in the juristicion of ni, but once its applied to a greater majority populous, the rules change !
hypocricy !
:D
What a silly post. Surely you are old enough to know that there is a majority in both Irish states that there is not one Irish state but two Irish states.
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 01, 2008, 03:06:38 PM
Such a "head in the sand" position is not an option. The fact is, a political decision was foisted upon UR and as President, it should be up to him to show leadership in representing his Members. He failed, and apparently for the worst of reasons - money.
Reid is Chief Executive. The President, committee and blazers are the one's that should have taken it to the IRFU in no uncertain terms imo.
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 01, 2008, 03:06:38 PM
The "lack of will to get involved in anything Political" is effectively a policy of appeasement, and as Churchill once famously said: 'an appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile in the futile hope that it will eat him last'...
I agree.
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 01, 2008, 03:06:38 PMPossibly the most bone-headed reaction it is possible to take, since it will have no positive effect on the Blazers in the IRFU, but can only serve to entrench further the obduracy of the Republican elements in Irish rugby. ::)
Serves to entrench the border too is how I see it, but it simply sours sporting relations when there is simply no need.
Quote from: Main Street on December 01, 2008, 03:16:09 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on November 26, 2008, 02:20:19 PM
We all know why the Irish Government gives out passports to anyone - even Jackie McDonald :o - who was born in NI: it is a political statement.
The "we all" you refer to probably don't know anything but their own smell.
QuoteAnd, of course, they are entitled to do so. However, as someone who does not share their politics, but might conceivably avail of such a Passport himself in certain circumstances, I perhaps would not call this "stupid", but neither would I call it "clever", either
Since when does sharing a political ethos be the main outstanding criteria for accepting one's birthright to an Irish passport.
To be Irish is not a political statement or a political belief.
QuoteFor as a political statement, it is a mere symbolic gesture, rather than an effective measure.
It is more than a political statement and as a gesture let those who have availed of it speak and define the symbolism of it.
Quotewhen the State's founding fathers first settled upon this policy, they were not clever enough to envisage that others from outside Ireland might one day take advantage of their liberal citizenship laws, e.g. by mothers contriving to have a baby on Irish soil, thereby giving themselves and their spouse brand new citizenship rights in the Republic (and by extension, the EU), hence the need to change the Constitution to exclude this.
Generally it is difficult to be clever enough to envisage the future in 80 year time.
Who knows what the British gov would have decided as best course of action 90 years ago if they knew what a balls they were going to make of it..
QuoteAnyhow, perhaps you should start a separate thread on the subject,
Perhaps, you should have done it before landing your reply.
My "separate thread" comment may only have been an afterthought, but I stand by it. I prefer to keep this thread on topic, i.e. by discussing Irish rugby. Speaking of which, have you anything to contribute?
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 01, 2008, 03:35:46 PM
My "separate thread" comment may only have been an afterthought, but I stand by it. I prefer to keep this thread on topic, i.e. by discussing Irish rugby. Speaking of which, have you antyhing to contribute?
I have already made many valuable, insightful and concise contributions to this thread.
I follow a principle that a thread starts on page 1 and even if in the extremely unlikely situation that I was exiled temporarily for violating Board rules I would still take the effort to read the thread from page 1.
Quote from: Main Street on December 01, 2008, 03:41:36 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 01, 2008, 03:35:46 PM
My "separate thread" comment may only have been an afterthought, but I stand by it. I prefer to keep this thread on topic, i.e. by discussing Irish rugby. Speaking of which, have you antyhing to contribute?
I have already made many valuable, insightful and concise contributions to this thread.
Good for you. It must be nice to get a bit of praise sometimes - even if it's self-praise... ;)
Quote from: Main Street on December 01, 2008, 03:41:36 PM
I follow a principle that a thread starts on page 1 and even if in the extremely unlikely situation that I was exiled temporarily for violating Board rules I would still take the effort to read the thread from page 1.
So anyhow, anything more to say on "Ireland's Call", then? ::)
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 01, 2008, 03:50:29 PM
Good for you. It must be nice to get a bit of praise sometimes - even if it's self-praise... ;)
Sarcasm after getting nobbled is, in discussion board terms, bad form, more akin to juveniles.
You have the freedom to challenge anything I have written should it not meet standards but Roger has already taken the time to inform me better on my grey areas.
QuoteSo anyhow, anything more to say on "Ireland's Call", then? ::)
Is there a new question that is not covered by my earlier replies?
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 01, 2008, 03:11:53 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 01, 2008, 02:53:04 PM
there was me thinking the majority and democracy rule
its ok when its in the juristicion of ni, but once its applied to a greater majority populous, the rules change !
hypocricy !
:D
So doubtless you will be content to hear GSTQ played to represent the British & Irish Lions team during their tour of South Africa next year, then? And you are equally content to hear GSTQ being played as the anthem before NI soccer games. Or when NI provides a majority of players for the Ireland cricket team?
"Hypocricy"? You can't even spell the word... ::)
if gstq was the anthem of the majority then fine - personally I'd have no problem.
dont think the scots, welsh etc would go for that but dont let the facts stand in the way of your excuses !
Quote from: Roger on December 01, 2008, 03:21:22 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 01, 2008, 02:53:04 PM
there was me thinking the majority and democracy rule
its ok when its in the juristicion of ni, but once its applied to a greater majority populous, the rules change !
hypocricy !
:D
What a silly post. Surely you are old enough to know that there is a majority in both Irish states that there is not one Irish state but two Irish states.
and point out exactly where the second Irish team are hiding ?
:D
or was it 'silly' as it fecked up yer 'argument' ::)
:D
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 01, 2008, 05:12:56 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 01, 2008, 03:11:53 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 01, 2008, 02:53:04 PM
there was me thinking the majority and democracy rule
its ok when its in the juristicion of ni, but once its applied to a greater majority populous, the rules change !
hypocricy !
:D
So doubtless you will be content to hear GSTQ played to represent the British & Irish Lions team during their tour of South Africa next year, then? And you are equally content to hear GSTQ being played as the anthem before NI soccer games. Or when NI provides a majority of players for the Ireland cricket team?
"Hypocricy"? You can't even spell the word... ::)
if gstq was the anthem of the majority then fine - personally I'd have no problem.
dont think the scots, welsh etc would go for that but dont let the facts stand in the way of your excuses !
The fact is, that there are only 13 million Scots, Welsh and Irish combined, many of whom are quite happy with GSTQ, as opposed to 45 million English people, few of whom seem to have any problem with GSTQ.
So what's it to be for the Lions, then, eh? GSTQ? Jerusalem? Swing Low, Sweet Chariot? ::)
I can't see any of those going down to well with e.g. the Men of Munster... ;)
I love how the same argument comes up week after week on here
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 01, 2008, 05:13:36 PM
and point out exactly where the second Irish team are hiding ?
:D
or was it 'silly' as it fecked up yer 'argument' ::)
:D
There is no second Irish rugby team - that is the whole point.
There is one team, selected from two jurisdictions. Therefore the arrangements for flags and anthems etc should either reflect both those jurisdictions, or be neutral and reflect neither. Alternatively, you might select one set of emblems only, on a match-by-match basis, according to the jurisdiction in which the team happens to be playing.
Any other arrangement is either illogical or prejudiced, or both.
Take your pick.
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 01, 2008, 05:28:43 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 01, 2008, 05:12:56 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 01, 2008, 03:11:53 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 01, 2008, 02:53:04 PM
there was me thinking the majority and democracy rule
its ok when its in the juristicion of ni, but once its applied to a greater majority populous, the rules change !
hypocricy !
:D
So doubtless you will be content to hear GSTQ played to represent the British & Irish Lions team during their tour of South Africa next year, then? And you are equally content to hear GSTQ being played as the anthem before NI soccer games. Or when NI provides a majority of players for the Ireland cricket team?
"Hypocricy"? You can't even spell the word... ::)
if gstq was the anthem of the majority then fine - personally I'd have no problem.
dont think the scots, welsh etc would go for that but dont let the facts stand in the way of your excuses !
The fact is, that there are only 13 million Scots, Welsh and Irish combined, many of whom are quite happy with GSTQ, as opposed to 45 million English people, few of whom seem to have any problem with GSTQ.
So what's it to be for the Lions, then, eh? GSTQ? Jerusalem? Swing Low, Sweet Chariot? ::)
I can't see any of those going down to well with e.g. the Men of Munster... ;)
these sweeping generalisations are great ! (as in the scots are less enamoured with gstq than the Irish - who dont really give a feck as croke park witnessed, am sure its the same down munster way - but shows how 'in touch' you are !)
there was me thinking that you were referring to the amount of players on the squad !
maybe they should be playing the german national anthem, or the chinese, pakistani, indian, polish etc
yer the new frank carson, only less funny
:D
abide with me is a great song though !
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 01, 2008, 05:35:01 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 01, 2008, 05:13:36 PM
and point out exactly where the second Irish team are hiding ?
:D
or was it 'silly' as it fecked up yer 'argument' ::)
:D
There is no second Irish rugby team - that is the whole point.
There is one team, selected from two jurisdictions. Therefore the arrangements for flags and anthems etc should either reflect both those jurisdictions, or be neutral and reflect neither. Alternatively, you might select one set of emblems only, on a match-by-match basis, according to the jurisdiction in which the team happens to be playing.
Any other arrangement is either illogical or prejudiced, or both.
Take your pick.
when it doesnt suit your argument
the point stands and unless you and your little pal have something of interest to offer then you'll stay going round in circles arguing your own wee world like the mini hitlers that you society seems to have reared ! :D
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 01, 2008, 05:13:36 PM
and point out exactly where the second Irish team are hiding ?
:D
I presumed (right or wrong?) that you were talking about majority rule within one jurisdiction. The IRFU is a sporting union of two jurisdictions. These jurisdictions were decided Political by a majority in both jurisdictions but the IRFU does not recognise nor need to recognise the border as it is a sport not a Political organisation and there is only one team. Therefore Political anthems are redundant.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 01, 2008, 05:13:36 PMor was it 'silly' as it fecked up yer 'argument' ::)
:D
It is silly because it is totally irrelevant and makes no sense for this topic if you have a basic understanding of democracy, geography and the sport of rugby in Ireland.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 01, 2008, 05:40:09 PM
you society seems to have reared ! :D
Have you not been raised in the same society? ??? ???
Lynchboy has risen above his circumstances.
Now he is so compatible in surroundings like the Gresham as to be almost invisible.
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 01, 2008, 12:26:35 PM
However, that is not how I see the game now. From what I observe, the onset of professionalism in rugby union originally led the powers that be (correctly) to conclude that Irish rugby would struggle to maintain four fully-professional teams, to compete in the Magners and Heineken etc, and also to contribute international-quality players to the Ireland team. So first poor Connacht was effectively cast aside, and now we see Ulster being marginalised, as Munster and Leinster establish their dominance over senior rugby on the island. Which from a purely professional club point of view actually makes sense, since there is no point in dissipating limited resources on one or two struggling teams at the expense of two more successful teams who could better utilise them.
However, the effect of this shift of power within Professional club rugby has also been transferred to the international team, which is now basically seen as a Munster/Leinster select, with the odd Ulster player thrown in. One of the results of this shift in ethos is seen, for example, in the way money has been found by the IRFU to keep star players like Brian O'Driscoll playing his club rugby for Leinster, rather than follow the money to England or France etc. Similarly, I get the impression that they were determined to keep O'Gara with Munster, but wouldn't have cared had David Humphries gone to England, as his brother did.
And I would be interested to compare IRFU funding for Thomond with that allocated to redeveloping Ravenhill (or selling Ravenhill to help fund a new, larger ground for Ulster rugby elsewhere in NI). Of course Munster rugby is on a high - and long may it continue. But this overlooks the fact that for more than the first century of its existence, Ulster's position amongst the Irish Provinces was at least as eminent as either Leinster or Munster. Normally, of course, these things come in cycles; for example, Ulster was the first Irish team to win the Heineken Cup, as recently as nine years ago, and with 13 Ulster-born players, plus a completely assimilated Kiwi who represented Ireland, and one solitary non-Irish player.
However, the way things are going at the moment, if Ulster don't somehow close the gap within the next few years, I fear that the IRFU's prioritisation (bias?) will see Ulster permanently left behind by M & L, to the long-term detriment of the game in the northern Province.
There is too much looking for conspiracy theories here. The simple answer is that Ulster haven't been good enough on the pitch and haven't had the quality of players compared to Munster and Leinster. If you look back on the Ulster, Munster and Leinster squads of 4 years ago, and 8 years ago, you'll see that Munster, and to a lesser degree, Leinster, have managed to maintain a core of 6-8 international standard players over this period. That sort of quality and experience delivers results. Go back 4 years, and Ulster has had almost 100% squad turnover. Go back another 4 years, and it is almost 100% again. The home-grown and imported players just haven't been good enough. Successive coaches have tried to build quality squads but have failed, for a variety of reasons. In the case of Mark McCall, it was because he simply wasn't a good enough coach when it came to man management.
In terms of why Ulster has been so poor, part is probably cyclical. Ulster had their "golden generation" in the 80s when they won all inter-pros for years and regularly contributed 7 or 8 to the Ireland team. Perhaps the 00s will be Munster and Leinster's golden generation? Time will tell - ROG and BOD increasingly look as if their best days are behind them. But the other reason is structural. Rugby is still largely a grammar school sport in Ulster and in the late 90s/early 00s a very large proportion of the grammar school output were leaving N Ireland, going to uni in GB and were basically lost to Irish rugby. You could have predicted that Ulster were going to be poor from the low representation on age group teams at the time. Establishment of an Ulster academy structure meant that talent could be identified earlier and kept at home. Players like Ferris are some the first academy output and only now beginning to mature. In Munster, the focus is more on the club scene than schools, and in Leinster and Munster, school leavers generally go to uni in Ireland.
Regarding resources, it isn't a case of the IRFU only spending money on the two favoured sons - the provinces are expected to increasingly pay their own way. Look at Munster and Ulster's respective records in the HEC during the 00s. Munster have been in 9 Quarter Finals, 7 Semi Finals and 4 Finals. Ulster has been in 0 QFs, 0 SFs and 0 Finals. That has given Munster a massive financial boost compared to Ulster - it is nothing to do with IRFU prioritisation. Winning games and good facilities puts money in the bank - isn't that how it goes in pro sport?
I'd agree that the financial gap between the provinces is now such that it will be very difficult for Ulster to overcome it. Munster now has a culture where they expect to win every game while Ulster's culture seems to be trying not to lose too many. Leinster and Munster both have good stadium facilties while politicians in N Ireland have prevaricated for years.
It is very tempting for some in Ulster to blame the IRFU, but look at the facts. The people that run Ulster Rugby are Ulstermen, the coaches that weren't good enough were Ulstermen, the vast majority of the teams that have never won a HEC game in England or France have been Ulstermen, the players whose egos wrecked the ML winning team of 05/06 were Ulstermen, the politicians who haven't been able to agree on stadium plans are also Ulstermen. Blame for the state of Ulster rugby lies in Ulster.
Regarding some specific points that you mentioned in your post:
- There is a tax break for professional sportsmen in the ROI that makes it attractive for players to stay and retire in Ireland. All things being equal, salaries can be less as benefits come after retirement. Ulster competes in the GB market for player wages, along with teams like Leicester and the Ospreys.
- David Humphreys DID go to England. He started his pro career with London Irish. What brought him back? The IRFU giving him a professional contract. His brother went to England as he is on the record that he wanted to play for Ulster but wouldn't as long as his big bro was there, as he would always be in his shadow.
- The IRFU has given Munster a loan covering 50% of Thomond Park development with the rest being funded by the Munster branch (through debenture sales and the like). I believe the loan + interest will be paid back over 10 years. Understandably, the IRFU has been waiting to see what happens with the Maze... without getting into that whole debate, what has been shameful is the lack of a decision, one way or the other, from the muppet show at Stormont. UR is also stuck when it comes to developing Ravenhill - because of planning and zoning, capacity can't be increased , and it is zoned as parkland so isn't worth anything to developers. It could be on the cards for the IRFU to build a new stadium for UR, but they'll want to finish off the Lansdowne Rd development and have some decisions from Stormont first.
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 01, 2008, 12:26:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 01, 2008, 04:39:03 AM
I have no idea if I'm one of the "brainwashed" to whom this is addressed. But just in case, I have nowhere expressed an opinion that "it is wrong to express any form of Irishness". I don't remember anyone else doing so either. Unless my willingness to have the rugby team use a neutral anthem as a gesture of inclusivity is a form of this perceived persecution, in which case I really think that those who see themselves as suffering this injury need to get a grip of themselves.
I appreciate your stance on this issue, J70 - if those in the upper echelons of Irish rugby currently were so fair-minded, there wouldn't be a problem.
But I have highlighted one phrase in your post which caught my attention. By adopting a "neutral anthem as a gesture of inclusivity", the clear implication is that this would be "Irish Rugby" as a whole making a gesture towards Northern Unionists etc
But however well-meaning, can't you see that Northern Unionists "own" Irish Rugby just as much (or as little) as e.g. Southern Nationalists etc? (Or should do, at least.) As such, playing a neutral anthem should be just as much a "gesture" towards the latter as towards the former.
Which in a way, sums up the whole sorry mess which the sport has got itself into (imo). For as long as I can remember, supporting Ireland in rugby was something entirely natural for someone like me to do, alongside all my fellow Irish men and women. I did not see it as making me any "more Irish" or "less British" etc, since I simply never defined my support for the team in political terms, nor was I required to do so by anyone else.
It wasn't my intention to suggest that Irish rugby doesn't belong to unionists. In fact, I have been arguing this entire thread that the team does represent both traditions and because of this the neutral anthem is appropriate. In terms of gestures of inclusivity, I was talking more about the willingness or reluctance of nationalists/southerners, exemplified on this thread, to let go of AnbF in this context and accept Ireland's Call for that very reason, as opposed to suggesting that the team doesn't belong to unionists but that we should be encouraging them to take part. Maybe I haven't articulated it too well, but the difference is clear, at least to me!