LETHAL ALLIES : British Collusion in Ireland

[Maguire01]

Of course and the program on the disappeared was just going over old ground,nothing new but sure all the usual pro British elements loved it getting a dig at the Shinners but very silent on these issues.

And the pro-shinner elements were fairly quiet on the other thread. Do you not realise that's the way this place works?

[Maguire01]

I believe a 'truth commission' is a ridiculous idea. The full truth will never come out, with or without amnesties. So why deny victims even a remote chance of justice?

[glens abu]

Of course and the program on the disappeared was just going over old ground,nothing new but sure all the usual pro British elements loved it getting a dig at the Shinners but very silent on these issues.

And the pro-shinner elements were fairly quiet on the other thread. Do you not realise that's the way this place works?

Talking balls again Maguire,sure the top Shinner took part in the program,and it was the Shinners who pushed for the setting up of the body to recover the disappeared.Why was this program not shown 3times in the one week on BBC and also on RTE.Unfortunatly you people don't want the truth to come out because it might hurt you a lot more than the Shinners.So you might be right on that score.

[muppet]

I believe a 'truth commission' is a ridiculous idea. The full truth will never come out, with or without amnesties. So why deny victims even a remote chance of justice?

I would genuinely like to know who exactly, and at what level, was the highest authority that signed off on the British decision to behave as they did.

A 'truth commission' could happen, but it would have to be all inclusive. As I suggested before it would have to be comprehensive, confidential until it's conclusion and nothing would be agree (to be published etc) until everything was agreed.

[Maguire01]

I believe a 'truth commission' is a ridiculous idea. The full truth will never come out, with or without amnesties. So why deny victims even a remote chance of justice?

I would genuinely like to know who exactly, and at what level, was the highest authority that signed off on the British decision to behave as they did.

A 'truth commission' could happen, but it would have to be all inclusive. As I suggested before it would have to be comprehensive, confidential until it's conclusion and nothing would be agree (to be published etc) until everything was agreed.

It would be good to know - I just don't believe we'd ever get the whole truth, and there'd continue to be accusations over who was holding back on what.

Would you have confidence that all parties to such a commission would put all their cards on the table?

[Maguire01]

Of course and the program on the disappeared was just going over old ground,nothing new but sure all the usual pro British elements loved it getting a dig at the Shinners but very silent on these issues.

And the pro-shinner elements were fairly quiet on the other thread. Do you not realise that's the way this place works?

Talking balls again Maguire,sure the top Shinner took part in the program,and it was the Shinners who pushed for the setting up of the body to recover the disappeared.

He didn't have much choice but to take part - he was in a 'no win' situation really, but he could hardly have refused to answer questions. But yes, well done on supporting the body to help 'right' these war crimes.

Why was this program not shown 3times in the one week on BBC and also on RTE.

Here's a guide to the next 4 repeats on BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/n3csvf5f/broadcasts/upcoming

Unfortunatly you people don't want the truth to come out because it might hurt you a lot more than the Shinners.So you might be right on that score.

"you people"? Trying to play the man again? I have no problem with the truth - it can't hurt me. I'll condemn violence no matter who perpetrated it - especially if it was perpetrated against innocent civilians. I've also said in the past that i'd expect higher standards from state forces than paramilitary groups. I'm not conflicted in any way when it comes to condemning violence. Without any reservation, I condemn the activities reported in panorama.

[HiMucker]

Anyone watching BBC 1 at the min?  Hard to listening to, very one sided British propaganda material.  "We had to take them out, they were terrorists,  they were baby killers" etc etc.  There was a vague introduction about bloody sunday and that the army had to take to the street to curb the IRA violence.  Just the usual wishy washy version of events.  still interesting viewing all the same.

Really? I don't think the British Army came out of that programme in a positive light for too many people. If it was propoganda, they got it spectacularly wrong.

In fairness Maguire I posted that about 20 mins in to the programme.  It then did take a turn.  But as someone else said it ended spectacularly along the lines of "poppy endorsing support our heroes"

[Main Street]

Anyone watching BBC 1 at the min?  Hard to listening to, very one sided British propaganda material.  "We had to take them out, they were terrorists,  they were baby killers" etc etc.  There was a vague introduction about bloody sunday and that the army had to take to the street to curb the IRA violence.  Just the usual wishy washy version of events.  still interesting viewing all the same.

Really? I don't think the British Army came out of that programme in a positive light for too many people. If it was propoganda, they got it spectacularly wrong.

In fairness Maguire I posted that about 20 mins in to the programme.  It then did take a turn.  But as someone else said it ended spectacularly along the lines of "poppy endorsing support our heroes"

It was clearly stated near the end of the program by the presenter, that this was tribute program to to the members of the prototype underground murder squads of the British Army in NI, who eventually (in different murder squad disguises) crippled the IRA's ability to wage their campaign and eventually forced them to surrender their arms.The propaganda was the tribute to the soldiers, the strategy and drilled home the rationalisation of the methods used.
The  rationalisation was, yes the grunts did murder but those were good murders, done for the good of society and forced the IRA to surrender.
And if they did murder,  a facile denial was offered that they were ordered to murder.
That was a good propaganda program from the BBC, it hit all the buttons and ticked all the boxes. Yes we did dirty stuff but we had to, so we could beat Paddy the nasty terrorist.

[Maguire01]

Anyone watching BBC 1 at the min?  Hard to listening to, very one sided British propaganda material.  "We had to take them out, they were terrorists,  they were baby killers" etc etc.  There was a vague introduction about bloody sunday and that the army had to take to the street to curb the IRA violence.  Just the usual wishy washy version of events.  still interesting viewing all the same.

Really? I don't think the British Army came out of that programme in a positive light for too many people. If it was propoganda, they got it spectacularly wrong.

In fairness Maguire I posted that about 20 mins in to the programme.  It then did take a turn.  But as someone else said it ended spectacularly along the lines of "poppy endorsing support our heroes"

It was clearly stated near the end of the program by the presenter, that this was tribute program to to the members of the prototype underground murder squads of the British Army in NI, who eventually (in different murder squad disguises) crippled the IRA's ability to wage their campaign and eventually forced them to surrender their arms.The propaganda was the tribute to the soldiers, the strategy and drilled home the rationalisation of the methods used.
The  rationalisation was, yes the grunts did murder but those were good murders, done for the good of society and forced the IRA to surrender.
And if they did murder,  a facile denial was offered that they were ordered to murder.
That was a good propaganda program from the BBC, it hit all the buttons and ticked all the boxes. Yes we did dirty stuff but we had to, so we could beat Paddy the nasty terrorist.

Well I got a very different impression than you then. If it was propoganda it missed the mark by a mile.

[EC Unique]

Anyone watching BBC 1 at the min?  Hard to listening to, very one sided British propaganda material.  "We had to take them out, they were terrorists,  they were baby killers" etc etc.  There was a vague introduction about bloody sunday and that the army had to take to the street to curb the IRA violence.  Just the usual wishy washy version of events.  still interesting viewing all the same.

Really? I don't think the British Army came out of that programme in a positive light for too many people. If it was propoganda, they got it spectacularly wrong.

In fairness Maguire I posted that about 20 mins in to the programme.  It then did take a turn.  But as someone else said it ended spectacularly along the lines of "poppy endorsing support our heroes"

It was clearly stated near the end of the program by the presenter, that this was tribute program to to the members of the prototype underground murder squads of the British Army in NI, who eventually (in different murder squad disguises) crippled the IRA's ability to wage their campaign and eventually forced them to surrender their arms.The propaganda was the tribute to the soldiers, the strategy and drilled home the rationalisation of the methods used.
The  rationalisation was, yes the grunts did murder but those were good murders, done for the good of society and forced the IRA to surrender.
And if they did murder,  a facile denial was offered that they were ordered to murder.
That was a good propaganda program from the BBC, it hit all the buttons and ticked all the boxes. Yes we did dirty stuff but we had to, so we could beat Paddy the nasty terrorist.

Well I got a very different impression than you then. If it was propoganda it missed the mark by a mile.

The program reflected badly on the Brits as it showed them up as being as lawless as those they were fighting but the bit at the end tried to justify and commend the killers. It was an attempt at propaganda but failed. I guess it was a deal done with these c***ts  we will give an interview but it must be said that we contributed to the defeat of the IRA, which of course they did not.

[haveaharp]

To me the ending note of the programme basically said that the end justified the means. Ok, if that's the road they want to go down then by the same token the republican campaign was justified as without it we would be stuck with similar rights enjoyed in the 60's and 70's.

[Saffrongael]

To me the ending note of the programme basically said that the end justified the means. Ok, if that's the road they want to go down then by the same token the republican campaign was justified as without it we would be stuck with similar rights enjoyed n the 60's and 70's.

You should brush up on your history

[haveaharp]

To me the ending note of the programme basically said that the end justified the means. Ok, if that's the road they want to go down then by the same token the republican campaign was justified as without it we would be stuck with similar rights enjoyed n the 60's and 70's.

You should brush up on your history

Enlighten me

[Main Street]

Anyone watching BBC 1 at the min?  Hard to listening to, very one sided British propaganda material.  "We had to take them out, they were terrorists,  they were baby killers" etc etc.  There was a vague introduction about bloody sunday and that the army had to take to the street to curb the IRA violence.  Just the usual wishy washy version of events.  still interesting viewing all the same.

Really? I don't think the British Army came out of that programme in a positive light for too many people. If it was propoganda, they got it spectacularly wrong.

In fairness Maguire I posted that about 20 mins in to the programme.  It then did take a turn.  But as someone else said it ended spectacularly along the lines of "poppy endorsing support our heroes"

It was clearly stated near the end of the program by the presenter, that this was tribute program to to the members of the prototype underground murder squads of the British Army in NI, who eventually (in different murder squad disguises) crippled the IRA's ability to wage their campaign and eventually forced them to surrender their arms.The propaganda was the tribute to the soldiers, the strategy and drilled home the rationalisation of the methods used.
The  rationalisation was, yes the grunts did murder but those were good murders, done for the good of society and forced the IRA to surrender.
And if they did murder,  a facile denial was offered that they were ordered to murder.
That was a good propaganda program from the BBC, it hit all the buttons and ticked all the boxes. Yes we did dirty stuff but we had to, so we could beat Paddy the nasty terrorist.

Well I got a very different impression than you then. If it was propoganda it missed the mark by a mile.

You missed the propaganda bias by a mile then. It was a program about rationalising the methods of the death squads. Listen to the last 5 minutes again. It's as blatant a piece of propaganda as Himmler could ever conjure, though in a subtle mood.
Just because you might have a different reaction to the account and description of the methods outlined in the documentary, does not detract from the goal of the program, the message was loud and clear.

If the program was not about propaganda, then half asleep I could think of a hundred questions never asked which could have ripped apart their attempt to rationalise state sponsored terror and murder.
The obvious fcking question,  well maybe your murder squads prolonged the war, maybe bloody sunday consolidated  the growth and cause of militant republicanism, maybe shooting kids and civilians on the streets, by the British Army sponsored murder squads,  sent a loud and clear message  to a nationalist community and widened and hardened the support for militant republicans.

And then the presenter tries to portray it all as if the strategy was a great success, ultimately bringing a surrender of the IRA. Well if that isn't a crock of moronic Brit propaganda, then what is?
I mean, is that type of tally ho Victor comic book perspective coming from the presenter, suppose to be objective?