LETHAL ALLIES : British Collusion in Ireland

[EC Unique]

They were sent out to shoot and kill IRA suspects and bring the war to them. So why then did they only shoot civilians?

Because they couldn't shoot back being unarmed.
Like others I suspect this programme and the AG's comments are part of a choreography leading to something.
To stop investigating things so that no Brits involved in dirty tricks can spill any info?

Hope the 26 Cos. Poppy wearers are proud of themselves the cnuts.

I would imagine they are sh1tting themselves at cases being brought against them and £millions claims coming in.

[glens abu]

Of course and the program on the disappeared was just going over old ground,nothing new but sure all the usual pro British elements loved it getting a dig at the Shinners but very silent on these issues.

[orangeman]

Nuala O'Loan calls for investigation into claims soldiers killed unarmed civilians

Claims that a secret Army unit in Northern Ireland shot unarmed civilians during the 1970s must be investigated, a former police ombudsman has said.

Baroness Nuala O'Loan called for an investigation into the revelations broadcast in a BBC Panorama programme.

Three former members of the Military Reaction Force (MRF) told the programme they had been tasked with "hunting down" IRA members in Belfast.

Baroness O'Loan said the families of those targeted deserve answers.

"Families who have, for 40 years, wondered how did it come about that their loved ones were shot by the military and yet no-one was brought to book and the facts maybe didn't add up, that they were told, and there were allegations of people having guns when they clearly and manifestly didn't have guns - I think those families have the right to know what happened."

Baroness Nuala O'Loan served as Northern Ireland's first police ombudsman from 2000 to 2007.

During her tenure she carried out high-profile investigations into allegations of security force collusion in civilian murders.

The former MRF soldiers, who were speaking publically for the first time, told Panorama that they believed the unit had saved many lives.

The MRF was disbanded in 1973.

The Ministry of Defence said admissions by soldiers they they sometimes operated beyond the law will be referred to the police.

[Nally Stand]

There are murders in Ireland but they are not of Irish stock
There are terrorists in Ireland but they serve a foreign law
They will never face a Diplock court or rot in H Block cell
For murder isn't murder when it serves the crown so well

[Rossfan]

Would I be on the right track if I thought they ( Brits) are building to a "Victims/Truth/Legacy/Past" Commission where they will say that "the only way we can get at the truth is to give immunity from prosecution to people involved in killings"??

[michaelg]

Would I be on the right track if I thought they ( Brits) are building to a "Victims/Truth/Legacy/Past" Commission where they will say that "the only way we can get at the truth is to give immunity from prosecution to people involved in killings"??

Would this not be equally as appealing to Sinn Fein?

[Kidder81]

Of course and the program on the disappeared was just going over old ground,nothing new but sure all the usual pro British elements loved it getting a dig at the Shinners but very silent on these issues.

Those families have every right to tell their story, no matter how much it made some squirm watching it.

Do you think they should "move on" ?

[grounded]

Would I be on the right track if I thought they ( Brits) are building to a "Victims/Truth/Legacy/Past" Commission where they will say that "the only way we can get at the truth is to give immunity from prosecution to people involved in killings"??

Not possible old chap. Too many important people higher up the food chain would be implicated. These soldiers/Terrorists( what's good for the goose..) didn't act of their own accord. Somebody signed or ok'd their orders and sent them out. Of course it helps when the records were conveniently destroyed.

[Rossfan]

Would I be on the right track if I thought they ( Brits) are building to a "Victims/Truth/Legacy/Past" Commission where they will say that "the only way we can get at the truth is to give immunity from prosecution to people involved in killings"??

Not possible old chap. Too many important people higher up the food chain would be implicated. These soldiers/Terrorists( what's good for the goose..) didn't act of their own accord. Somebody signed or ok'd their orders and sent them out. Of course it helps when the records were conveniently destroyed.

Ahhh but only the lowly soldier on the ground would be talking to the "Commission" -- "I fired a shot, it hit someone"
The order givers won't be asked as they weren't physically involved in the incidents 

[Rossfan]

Would I be on the right track if I thought they ( Brits) are building to a "Victims/Truth/Legacy/Past" Commission where they will say that "the only way we can get at the truth is to give immunity from prosecution to people involved in killings"??

Would this not be equally as appealing to Sinn Fein?

You're learning buckeen 

[johnneycool]

Would I be on the right track if I thought they ( Brits) are building to a "Victims/Truth/Legacy/Past" Commission where they will say that "the only way we can get at the truth is to give immunity from prosecution to people involved in killings"??

Would this not be equally as appealing to Sinn Fein?

You're learning buckeen 

If anything Sinn Fein have less to lose from a truth commission as they've never held the moral high ground and if anything did come out it'd be a case of 'sure we suspected as much all along.

The British establishment has far more to lose as its part as a fair/honest hand in the conflict will unravel in a big way, with the behaviour of its army, police force, reservists, UDR will be in tatters, not to mention the judicial system and political elite both here and in whitehall being shown for the dirty scumbags they are no matter what Eton accent they can manage.

[glens abu]

Of course and the program on the disappeared was just going over old ground,nothing new but sure all the usual pro British elements loved it getting a dig at the Shinners but very silent on these issues.

Those families have every right to tell their story, no matter how much it made some squirm watching it.

Do you think they should "move on" ?

What did you think of the program last night about Brits drive by shooting of nationalists?

[Maguire01]

All the above is paraphrasing, but is the gist of what was said. As for the book, it is an astonishingly detailed, evidence based account. Evidence stands on it's own merit. And if it was OK for Noel Dorr to slabber about the emotion that "people" felt at hearing Queen Elizabeth speaking Irish ("and in the accent she spoke it in"), then Anne Cadwallader was well within her rights to speak about the emotional anguish of the victims families (whom she had worked with for around twelve years in producing her book) who held a silent and dignified protest on the day and who have a damn good reason to be feeling pain she spoke of. If she stood with them on the anniversary and saw them crying, then she has every right to say so. They might not be IRA victims but media references to their suffering should still be tolerated in the same way at least! If her speaking of this is enough for you to not want to buy a book outlining overwhelming evidence of collusion, then I suspect you likely had no intention of buying it anyway. I'd highly recommend you do though.

Fair enough.

But it isn't ok for this Noel Dorr to speak as you say he did. To dismiss British collusion, claim he knew all about Gárda collusion and then talk about emotion is obviously absurd of him. But it can't be used as an excuse to justify the same treatment to the opposing argument.

It seemed Anne's only reason for bringing up the topic of emotions was as a direct reply to Dorr's comment that the situation in the north was settled. She simply responded by pointing out how absurd a statement that was considering she stood with victims' family members who were literally in tears from pain and anger on Talbott St during the state visit by queen Elizabeth because they continue to be denied closure by a state which had it's Head of State parading around their city on the anniversary of their loved one's deaths. Her arguments overall on the programme, and in her book, were almost exclusively fact/evidence based, rather than emotive.

Personally speaking, the way those families (any anybody who dared voice support for them) were at best ignored that day, and at worst, told to stop living in the past, by an Irish society conditioned to fawn over queen Elizabeth made my skin crawl every bit as much as did the comments of Noel Dorr last night. And for the record, Britain's most recent refusal to hand over the files came the very next day after the "historic" state visit ended. The newfound mutual respect lasted less than 24 hours.

no doubt poetry muppet will mention the files when hes in London next year some chance

Did McGuinness take the Queen to task on them last year?

don't think hes the president.. don't think hes a representative of the 26 government..

What difference does that make?

in the official capacity the queen, peter robbo and martin were guests of the 26 government. martin was there to meet the queen as a representative of the 6 and as a rep of sinn fein a party with the intentions of being in power in the 26 very soon there's a time and place..  that's diplomacy.. I have no doubt that were it martin that were president and he was on his way to London on a return official state visit he would definitely use the opportunity to ask publicly for the files in question.
at best the queen will get a book of poetry and a pint of Guinness.. from our president.

Doh! McGuinness refused to meet the Queen when she was a guest of thee Irish Government. He then made a u-turn and met her a  year later when she visited NI. He never met her as a guest of the '26 government' - he met her on his own patch.

Interesting that you recognise "diplomacy" however.

[Maguire01]

in the official capacity the queen, peter robbo and martin were guests of the 26 government. martin was there to meet the queen as a representative of the 6 and as a rep of sinn fein a party with the intentions of being in power in the 26 very soon there's a time and place..  that's diplomacy.. I have no doubt that were it martin that were president and he was on his way to London on a return official state visit he would definitely use the opportunity to ask publicly for the files in question.
at best the queen will get a book of poetry and a pint of Guinness.. from our president.

So let me get this straight. Martin McGuinness doesn't ask the question when he meets the Queen as a private citizen, yet you say he would ask the question if he were President? The President is severely restricted in their function, both by the Constitution and by protocol.
Typical Shinner fantasies to explain away their collaboration with the Brits, collaboration that they find so odious when practiced by others.

Partitionist Hayseed shows his total lack of understanding of Bunreacht na hÉireann and the role of the Uachtarán.

Well he didn't understand it during the presidential campaign...

[Maguire01]

Anyone watching BBC 1 at the min?  Hard to listening to, very one sided British propaganda material.  "We had to take them out, they were terrorists,  they were baby killers" etc etc.  There was a vague introduction about bloody sunday and that the army had to take to the street to curb the IRA violence.  Just the usual wishy washy version of events.  still interesting viewing all the same.

Really? I don't think the British Army came out of that programme in a positive light for too many people. If it was propoganda, they got it spectacularly wrong.