Terrible accident at Cork Airport.
Manx flight from Belfast to Cork crashed in fog on landing.
Unconfirmed reports of 8 dead and 14 injured.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0210/cork.html (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0210/cork.html)
There are unconfirmed reports that eight people are dead following a plane crash at Cork Airport.
The Manx2 commuter flight was en route from Belfast when it crashed on landing in fog at Cork Airport just before 10am.
14 people are said to be injured.
Gardaí, fire crews and ambulances from across the city and county are responding.
The aircraft is reported to be on fire.
Just read that, shocking!
My brother uses that flight regularly.
Have used it frequently myself and hope to god the unconfirmed reports aren't true. It'll be business people. Tiny plane.
horrible news.
10 passengers and 2 crew now according to RTE. No cabin service, just pilots.
Shocking news.
Terrible news, I used to fly into Cork from Dublin nearly every week over the last few years and its a terrible airport for fog. When you fly in from the city side, you think you are well over the ground but because of the hills the runway just appears from nowhere.
Shocking news for all concerned.
Dreadful, 3 confirmed dead, 3 injured, 2 trapped and 4 unaccounted for.
Terrible news, hope the injured pull through..
Landing in fog is a dangerous for sure, remember my mum being on a plane from manchester to knock, and seeing trying to land 3 times in fog and doing flybys and then eventually landing but i was nervous watching on.
My boss was on that plane, Phoned us at 11.20 to say he was ok but the carnage around him was terrible.
We only knew of the crash because the fella who was picking him up phoned to ask where he was!!
We waited 25 mintues before he finally called!!! Unbelieveable that he has walki=ed away from this terrible accident. My thoughts are with the ones who have lost their lives in this tradgey.
Can't get my head around this at all, can't imagine how he is feeling after surviving this??
Shocking news. Heard it on the radio this morning, when having a cup of tea in the Diner. The whole place fell to silence and were transfixed to the news.
Cork City Council have now confirmed 6 dead on the flight. RIP to them all.
My thoughts are immediately turned to the gaaboard's downgirl, who would regularly be on that flight. I pray she logs in and lets us know she is safe and well.
Tragic news. Thoughts and prayers to the families of those who lost their lives. RIP
Milltown Row2, looks like your boss is one lucky man this morning.
My thoughts are with the family of all on the flight.
Quote from: ziggysego on February 10, 2011, 11:52:42 AM
Shocking news. Heard it on the radio this morning, when having a cup of tea in the Diner. The whole place fell to silence and were transfixed to the news.
Cork City Council have now confirmed 6 dead on the flight. RIP to them all.
My thoughts are immediately turned to the gaaboard's downgirl, who would regularly be on that flight. I pray she logs in and lets us know she is safe and well.
ziggy, I checked her Facebook and she was in Cork last night so no need to worry.
Edit. She just posted on her wall as I typed.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 10, 2011, 11:51:36 AM
My boss was on that plane, Phoned us at 11.20 to say he was ok but the carnage around him was terrible.
We only knew of the crash because the fella who was picking him up phoned to ask where he was!!
We waited 25 mintues before he finally called!!! Unbelieveable that he has walki=ed away from this terrible accident. My thoughts are with the ones who have lost their lives in this tradgey.
Can't get my head around this at all, can't imagine how he is feeling after surviving this??
A friend of mine is on it. That's after giving me some glimmer of hope. Didnt sound possible from the reports. We've someone down at the hospital but have heard nothing yet.
6 dead according to Sky News and 6 injured, your boss must have been walking wounded.
Have flown into Cork many, many times on small planes in bad weather and it always struck me as being very close to the edge of acceptability. Sad news indeed. Have just been talking to a business in Cork that would inevitably have people on that flight, and, against the odds, they had no-one taking it this morning.
Hound, I hope you get some good news from this.
Good to hear bcb1, glad she's ok.
Milltown, your boss is a lucky man.
Hound, hope you hear some good news. Will say a silent prayer here.
Heard of another businessman from Belfast who was on it.
Just heard my wife's Aunt is a regular on the flight and was intending going down to see her grandkids for the mid term next week but her daughter is coming up instead. Hound I pray everything is ok with your friend.
Quote from: Hound on February 10, 2011, 12:13:49 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 10, 2011, 11:51:36 AM
My boss was on that plane, Phoned us at 11.20 to say he was ok but the carnage around him was terrible.
We only knew of the crash because the fella who was picking him up phoned to ask where he was!!
We waited 25 mintues before he finally called!!! Unbelieveable that he has walki=ed away from this terrible accident. My thoughts are with the ones who have lost their lives in this tradgey.
Can't get my head around this at all, can't imagine how he is feeling after surviving this??
A friend of mine is on it. That's after giving me some glimmer of hope. Didnt sound possible from the reports. We've someone down at the hospital but have heard nothing yet.
Hound, I hope you get the same news as Milltown, I really do.
Must be an awful time for anyone connected to those on board
(http://c0013644.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/x2_489d7ba)
not much chance for anyone at the front.
Shocking and sad news. I hope you get the good news you want Hound.
Hope you get positive news Hound, awful tragedy.
Dear jesus, thats tragic tragic news. Hope the news is good Hound
Over here in Belgium, just after hearing the news, flew out of Dublin this morning, what a thin line we walk. Sad news all round
I know it may be too early as people grieve but why was there an attempt to land in such bad fog? Did the fog decend all of a sudden. Could a decision not have been made to divert to Shannon long before the plane came near Cork?
That siad I hope Hound gets good news.
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on February 10, 2011, 12:58:19 PM
Over here in Belgium, just after hearing the news, flew out of Dublin this morning, what a thin line we walk. Sad news all round
I fly at least twice a week, taking off and landing on an icy and snow covered scandanvian runway.
There simply isnt any point thinking about what might happen as there is nothing you can do about it.
Shocking stuff. Hound, I hope ye get good news. Lord have mercy on the poor people who weren't lucky today.
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on February 10, 2011, 01:05:25 PM
I know it may be too early as people grieve but why was there an attempt to land in such bad fog? Did the fog decend all of a sudden. Could a decision not have been made to divert to Shannon long before the plane came near Cork?
That siad I hope Hound gets good news.
Tried to land on one runway, abandoned coz of fog. Then immediately tried the other, but it was no better. Then circled for 20 minutes until it was deemed better conditions, and attempted for the third time, with the disasterous outcome.
Thanks for all the good wishes. Heard nothing yet. Helpline only confirmed he was onboard.
EDIT: Just got the news. He's gone. Very sad. RIP
My boss is one lucky man, happened to be sitting in the front and managed to find himself upside down after the impact. Had to wade through the wreckage before getting out.
He walked away unscathed!! Obviously his number was not up
I thought there would be a fair few IT people on the plane.
Quote from: Hound on February 10, 2011, 01:19:20 PM
EDIT: Just got the news. He's gone. Very sad. RIP
Sorry to hear that Hound.
A miracle alright Milltown that your boss walked out of this. Hound I am so sorry about your friend.
Does anyone know what type of aircraft it was?
Fog is so deceptive. From above you may be able to see the runway but on approach the vision declines due to the angle of the approach. With that comes the danger of depth perception decline, meaning that the runway may seem further away so you keep up or even increase approach speed and if you hit the ground too hard....well...not good.
I've been caught out by sea fog several times in Broome and Pt.hedland. At certain times of the year I would always carry holding fuel and always had an alternative.
I'm fairly certain an aircraft of that size is not fitted with the instrumentation to approach in fog. Muppet, is Cork suitable for zero vis landings? would doubt it.
Sympathies to all.
Very sorry to hear about that Hound. RIP.
Milltown your boss is a very lucky man.
Hound - Very sorry to hear that news. RIP th those who died and best wishes to those injured.
Thats terrible news Hound. My condolences.
Sad news Hound. Condolences to all involved.
Hound I'm so sorry.
Aerlik, it was a Metro Liner. I am quoting RTE but it's saying that Cork has "Category 2 instruments for landing".
Very sorry Hound.
I'm sorry to hear that hound.
I'm so sorry to hear about this crash. The conflicting emotions of Milltown and Hound serve to show just how fickle the nature of life is. A speedy recovery to the injured and my sincere condolences to Hound and to all those were bereaved. May they Rest in Peace.
Quote from: Rois on February 10, 2011, 01:55:55 PM
Hound I'm so sorry.
Aerlik, it was a Metro Liner. I am quoting RTE but it's saying that Cork has "Category 2 instruments for landing".
Yes, Fairchild Metroliner whatever that is. Sorry to hear of your news Hound.
The whole story is my worst nightmare as I am the world's worst flier.
The metro, known as the flying cigarette because of its shape. They are common here in aus. Not fitted to land in fog, and if memory serves me right, Cat II is not suitable for zero vis approach.
Hound, my sympathies, buddy.
Quote from: Hound on February 10, 2011, 01:19:20 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on February 10, 2011, 01:05:25 PM
I know it may be too early as people grieve but why was there an attempt to land in such bad fog? Did the fog decend all of a sudden. Could a decision not have been made to divert to Shannon long before the plane came near Cork?
That siad I hope Hound gets good news.
Tried to land on one runway, abandoned coz of fog. Then immediately tried the other, but it was no better. Then circled for 20 minutes until it was deemed better conditions, and attempted for the third time, with the disasterous outcome.
Thanks for all the good wishes. Heard nothing yet. Helpline only confirmed he was onboard.
EDIT: Just got the news. He's gone. Very sad. RIP
So sorry Hound, I'm at work here and everyone, now that is, so relieved but only too mindful of the unfortunate ones who have lost theirs lives.
RIP to those that have left us my thoughts with the family & friends
Very sorry Hound about your friend, may he and all the others RIP.
As far as I know Cork does not have fog landing equipment, I have flown in there a lot of times over the years and for 3 years I was in there every week on a Monday monring and have been diverted to Shannon and Farranfore on occasions after failing to land in Cork. The approach from the city side looks deceptive as it very hilly, you think the ground is well below you and then all of a sudden you are landed, it can look scary but you always trust the pilots and traffic controllers to get you on the ground safe.
Sorry to hear that bad news Hound.
Sorry to hear about your mate Hound, what an awful tragedy.
My sympathy to Hound on the lost of his friend.
Sympathy to you Hound on the lost of his friend and to all those who have lost loved ones!
Terrible tragedy!
dont claim to know the woman, but have heard of a woman losing her husband in the crash, a week after burying her father...
condolences to all involved...
Terrible tragedy.
So sorry to hear about your friend Hound. May all who have lost their lives Rest In Peace and I hope that those in hospital make a full recovery.
Terrible news for all concerned may they rest in peace. Sorry for your loss hound
just heard that a fella i knew was killed in the crash,his wife just buried her father a week ago and has 2 small kids very sad
Quote from: isourboydownyet on February 10, 2011, 03:04:34 PM
just heard that a fella i knew was killed in the crash,his wife just buried her father a week ago and has 2 small kids very sad
Jeezs, I'm sorry to hear. RIP :(
Jaysus, that's awful lads, just when you think the news can't get any worse.
Tragic news to wake up to...sorry for your loss hound
RIP
Awful stuff.
RIP to all who perished, with an extra prayer for the friends of those on here.
Very sorry to hear that Hound.
An awful tragedy.
Sorry to hear that Hound thats terrible news.
Desperate news.
Suaimhneas síoraí ar a n-anamnacha.
Condolences to Hound and all who have lost family or friends.
Hound,
I'm very sorry to hear your bad news.
A terrible tragedy.
Condolences to all who died.
RIP
Eamonn Mallie has been hinting for the last hour, that someone big in northern politics was killed in the crash. He won't say who yet.
Quote from: ziggysego on February 10, 2011, 04:20:50 PM
Eamonn Mallie has been hinting for the last hour, that someone big in northern politics was killed in the crash. He won't say who yet.
Could he be confused by this? Not sure what the point of the quote is by the way.
QuoteMcGuiness: I considered taking crashed flight | BreakingNews.ie
Northern Ireland Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness has revealed he had considered taking the flight which crashed at Cork Airport today...
This is what he tweeted:
On Thursday 10th February 2011, @EamonnMallie said:
In the coming hours the scale and depth of expertise lost to NI will emerge as a result of the plane crash in Cork. At dheis De go raibh anamacha.
Quote from: mick999 on February 10, 2011, 04:31:52 PM
This is what he tweeted:
On Thursday 10th February 2011, @EamonnMallie said:
In the coming hours the scale and depth of expertise lost to NI will emerge as a result of the plane crash in Cork. At dheis De go raibh anamacha.
I'd imagine that means the fact that there is bound to be experienced, good, business people that use that flight.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 10, 2011, 04:33:15 PM
Quote from: mick999 on February 10, 2011, 04:31:52 PM
This is what he tweeted:
On Thursday 10th February 2011, @EamonnMallie said:
In the coming hours the scale and depth of expertise lost to NI will emerge as a result of the plane crash in Cork. At dheis De go raibh anamacha.
I'd imagine that means the fact that there is bound to be experienced, good, business people that use that flight.
He tweeted earlier:
Reports reaching me that one of those aboard crashed plane in Cork is linked to prominent family with North South links. Two sources."I have heard since that a Belfast based business man from Tyrone has died in the crash.
terrible news all round.
Hound, sorry to hear of your friend - he is in my prayers like the rest of the deceased. Terrible. Simply terrible.
Ziggy I'd heard earlier about someone who might fit that description. A partner in an accounting firm in Belfast.
I don't think we should be hinting about who may have been involved in this crash. Lets wait until the names are released before we discuss that. You never know who might read this and put 2 and 2 together and get 5.
Quote from: Aerlik on February 10, 2011, 01:45:43 PM
Does anyone know what type of aircraft it was?
Fog is so deceptive. From above you may be able to see the runway but on approach the vision declines due to the angle of the approach. With that comes the danger of depth perception decline, meaning that the runway may seem further away so you keep up or even increase approach speed and if you hit the ground too hard....well...not good.
I've been caught out by sea fog several times in Broome and Pt.hedland. At certain times of the year I would always carry holding fuel and always had an alternative.
I'm fairly certain an aircraft of that size is not fitted with the instrumentation to approach in fog. Muppet, is Cork suitable for zero vis landings? would doubt it.
Sympathies to all.
Cork has Cat II facilities on the approach to runway 17. It is not suitable for zero visability nor it is suitable for autoland (autopilot does the approach and landing) due to the terrain rising very steeply from the city up to the threshold of 17. This fools autopliots into thinking there is a very high rate of descent.
Looking at the pictures the aircraft is upside-down to the right and slightly past the touchdown point for runway 17.
I hate to speculate with no useful info but the reports of a third approach in low visiability don't sound good for the pilot. The weather below is ok for Cat II but the type was a Metroliner and I haven't a clue what equipment it carries.
Here is the weather I think the crash was around 1000.
SA 10/02/2011 11:00->
METAR EICK 101100Z 09009KT 1200N 5000S VCFG FEW001 BKN002 BKN005 06/06 Q1009 BECMG 3000=
SA 10/02/2011 10:30->
METAR EICK 101030Z 09007KT 1800 R17/P2000 R35/P2000 BR FEW001 SCT002 BKN003 06/06 Q1010 BECMG VIS 5000=
SA 10/02/2011 10:00->
METAR EICK 101000Z 09008KT 0400 R17/0600N R35/0450N FG BKN001 05/05 Q1010 NOSIG=
SA 10/02/2011 09:30->
METAR EICK 100930Z 08005KT 050V110 0300 R17/0375N R35/0350N FG BKN001 04/04 Q1010 NOSIG=
SA 10/02/2011 09:00->
METAR EICK 100900Z 06003KT 0300 R17/0325N R35/0450N FG SCT001 03/03 Q1010 BECMG 3000=
Quote from: Hound on February 10, 2011, 01:19:20 PM
Thanks for all the good wishes. Heard nothing yet. Helpline only confirmed he was onboard.
EDIT: Just got the news. He's gone. Very sad. RIP
Very sorry to hear that Hound. RIP.
Quote from: isourboydownyet on February 10, 2011, 03:04:34 PM
just heard that a fella i knew was killed in the crash,his wife just buried her father a week ago and has 2 small kids very sad
Sorry to hear that also, RIP to them all.
Quote from: ziggysego on February 10, 2011, 04:38:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 10, 2011, 04:33:15 PM
Quote from: mick999 on February 10, 2011, 04:31:52 PM
This is what he tweeted:
On Thursday 10th February 2011, @EamonnMallie said:
In the coming hours the scale and depth of expertise lost to NI will emerge as a result of the plane crash in Cork. At dheis De go raibh anamacha.
I'd imagine that means the fact that there is bound to be experienced, good, business people that use that flight.
He tweeted earlier:
Reports reaching me that one of those aboard crashed plane in Cork is linked to prominent family with North South links. Two sources."
I have heard since that a Belfast based business man from Tyrone has died in the crash.
Pat Cullinan, a partner in KPMG originally from Omagh is one of the dead, another is a linked to the presidents husband.
Quote from: Rois on February 10, 2011, 05:01:12 PM
Ziggy I'd heard earlier about someone who might fit that description. A partner in an accounting firm in Belfast.
Yeah, sounds about right.
Tragic News. God help their families and loved ones. I can't imagine worse final moments - as someone else said on here its also my worst nightmare. This is a tragic year so far.
Quote from: Puckoon on February 10, 2011, 05:14:54 PM
I can't imagine worse final moments - as someone else said on here its also my worst nightmare.
My brother was on that plane a few days ago, he is driving himself mad with what ifs.
Two Irish citizens, three British people and a Spaniard were killed in today's plane crash at Cork Airport.
Of the six survivors, two of whom walked away from the mangled wreckage of the 18-seater turboprop aircraft, two are British citizens, two are from the North and the others are from Waterford and Cork, Garda sources confirmed.
Some of the dead were understood to be the crew and employees of the KPMG accountancy firm based in Belfast.
One of the dead was a partner in the business, Pat Cullinan, originally from Omagh, Co Tyrone.
Terence O'Rourke, KPMG's managing partner, paid tribute to his colleague, who had been with the firm for more than 20 years.
"Pat Cullinan was an extremely talented professional and a real gentleman," Mr O'Rourke said.
"He was highly regarded by all of his colleagues and clients and his tragic and untimely death has come as a shock to everyone in the firm, especially to those in our Belfast office and to all who knew Pat as an exceptional friend and colleague."
Mr Cullinan joined KPMG's Belfast office in 1989 and qualified in 1993 before working in London for several years and transferred to Dublin in 2002. He was appointed a partner in 2005.
The only woman on the flight, who was from the UK, survived.
It is understood another of the men who died was a businessman from Cookstown, Co Tyrone.
Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/two-irish-among-six-crash-dead-492996.html#ixzz1DZvPVqWm
Quote from: ziggysego on February 10, 2011, 04:20:50 PM
Eamonn Mallie has been hinting for the last hour, that someone big in northern politics was killed in the crash. He won't say who yet.
UTV Live is doing a News Special and its their political correspondent who's in the studio leading on it. This would give some credence to your theory
Very sad news. I hope all the dead rest in peace.
A nephew of President McAleese. RIP to those who died.
Quote from: fitzroyalty on February 10, 2011, 05:55:11 PM
A nephew of President McAleese. RIP to those who died.
RTE say it was a cousin?
Cousin of Martin Mc Aleece.
Quote from: Rouge_Diablo on February 10, 2011, 06:11:12 PM
Quote from: fitzroyalty on February 10, 2011, 05:55:11 PM
A nephew of President McAleese. RIP to those who died.
RTE say it was a cousin?
Yes. Eamonn Mallie has now said on Twitter, this is who he was referring to on Twitter earlier this afternoon.
Yep, Brendan McAleese, General Manager of Central Laundries Cookstown.
From near Randalstown.
Relation of President McAleese's husband Martin.
I think this is who isourboydownyet was referring to earlier.
Didnt know the man myself but know what isourboy is talking about. Very sad, we think we have tough days sometimes, but when you think of this poor girl, and the rest of the relatives, we have fcuk all to complain about
Absolutely terrible news - condolences to all those involved.
RIP. Tragic.
RIP to all who died.....I've been on that plane a few times...scary stuff even in good weather :-\
Terrible tragedy this morning. A miracle how anyone walked away alive
Quote from: Rouge_Diablo on February 10, 2011, 05:08:46 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on February 10, 2011, 04:38:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 10, 2011, 04:33:15 PM
Quote from: mick999 on February 10, 2011, 04:31:52 PM
This is what he tweeted:
On Thursday 10th February 2011, @EamonnMallie said:
In the coming hours the scale and depth of expertise lost to NI will emerge as a result of the plane crash in Cork. At dheis De go raibh anamacha.
I'd imagine that means the fact that there is bound to be experienced, good, business people that use that flight.
He tweeted earlier:
Reports reaching me that one of those aboard crashed plane in Cork is linked to prominent family with North South links. Two sources."
I have heard since that a Belfast based business man from Tyrone has died in the crash.
Pat Cullinan, a partner in KPMG originally from Omagh is one of the dead, another is a linked to the presidents husband.
Pat was from Glenelly. Sincere sympathies are extended to his family in Cranagh
Quote from: giveherlong on February 10, 2011, 11:09:51 PM
Quote from: Rouge_Diablo on February 10, 2011, 05:08:46 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on February 10, 2011, 04:38:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 10, 2011, 04:33:15 PM
Quote from: mick999 on February 10, 2011, 04:31:52 PM
This is what he tweeted:
On Thursday 10th February 2011, @EamonnMallie said:
In the coming hours the scale and depth of expertise lost to NI will emerge as a result of the plane crash in Cork. At dheis De go raibh anamacha.
I'd imagine that means the fact that there is bound to be experienced, good, business people that use that flight.
He tweeted earlier:
Reports reaching me that one of those aboard crashed plane in Cork is linked to prominent family with North South links. Two sources."
I have heard since that a Belfast based business man from Tyrone has died in the crash.
Pat Cullinan, a partner in KPMG originally from Omagh is one of the dead, another is a linked to the presidents husband.
Pat was from Glenelly. Sincere sympathies are extended to his family in Cranagh
Yeah, we went to the same school in Plumbridge, although he was before my time.
Very sad. Condolences to the families and friends who have lost loved ones, may the deceased rest in peace. May the injured make a speedy and full recovery.
Tragic.
What awful news. Landing's always the scary part. I remember landing in Healthrow once in really thick fog after spending about 20 minutes in a hold. Felt the bump almost at the same time as seeing the runway appearing, amazing how accurate the automatic landing stuff can be. You could tell it was an auto landing because it was as smooth as ice, a very gentle bump. Wouldn't want to say anything about the specifics of this case until the investigation is done though. I hope they can come up with some safety improvements.
I always say "nice landing" to the pilot on the way out if he's standing near the front and he made a smooth landing. Always seems to make their day, not the sort of thing they'd hear very often.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 11, 2011, 02:04:15 AM
What awful news. Landing's always the scary part. I remember landing in Healthrow once in really thick fog after spending about 20 minutes in a hold. Felt the bump almost at the same time as seeing the runway appearing, amazing how accurate the automatic landing stuff can be. You could tell it was an auto landing because it was as smooth as ice, a very gentle bump. Wouldn't want to say anything about the specifics of this case until the investigation is done though. I hope they can come up with some safety improvements.
I always say "nice landing" to the pilot on the way out if he's standing near the front and he made a smooth landing. Always seems to make their day, not the sort of thing they'd hear very often.
Is there a hook under that worm?
Do yourself a favour and retract all of that non-sense.
Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2011, 03:19:52 AM
Is there a hook under that worm?
Do yourself a favour and retract all of that non-sense.
Huh?
Cork due to reopen 2moro. There's a poss the pilots didn't have the fuel for Farrenfore and had 2 make the 3rd approach. It's Internet chat. We'll all know soon.
Condolensces to all involved. Awful tragedy.
Was speaking to my boss tonight, home and happy to be alive, was strange talking to him. He is physically in good health and i hope he is in a good mental state. Wont be surprised to see him in work on Monday morning.
Read an interview with one of the survivors in today's paper, must have been a horrible experience. R.I.P. all those who died.
RIP to the deceased. Those small jets always have made me uneasy when flying in them.
Apparently the first pice of debris on the runway was some broken green glass. It was found in the centre of the runway.
Likely to have to been the starboard nav light.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc274/alien_contactee/Alien%20Casebook/Used%20Once/ALIENCASEBOOKFORUM/airplanelights.jpg)
What would that indicate muppet? That the starboard wing was down lower and she wasn't levelled out coming in? (i.e. did the green light clip the tarmac?)
Sunday Times article on the crash said that interviews with survivors have indicated that the starboard wing clipped the ground causing the plane to flip.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 13, 2011, 10:18:46 PM
Sunday Times article on the crash said that interviews with survivors have indicated that the starboard wing clipped the ground causing the plane to flip.
That would seem to be backed up with the green glass near the start of the runway.
That doesn't explain why the wing would make contact first though. There are any number of possibilities for that but no hard evidence yet (publicly available) to narrow the options.
Quote from: muppet on February 14, 2011, 12:07:33 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 13, 2011, 10:18:46 PM
Sunday Times article on the crash said that interviews with survivors have indicated that the starboard wing clipped the ground causing the plane to flip.
That would seem to be backed up with the green glass near the start of the runway.
That doesn't explain why the wing would make contact first though. There are any number of possibilities for that but no hard evidence yet (publicly available) to narrow the options.
Some aviation expert was postulating on something called "the leans" brought on my circling in a hold and due to flying in poor visibility which caused him to overcompensate when levelling off on landing. All theory though and with both flight crew dead it may remain theory.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 14, 2011, 12:13:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on February 14, 2011, 12:07:33 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 13, 2011, 10:18:46 PM
Sunday Times article on the crash said that interviews with survivors have indicated that the starboard wing clipped the ground causing the plane to flip.
That would seem to be backed up with the green glass near the start of the runway.
That doesn't explain why the wing would make contact first though. There are any number of possibilities for that but no hard evidence yet (publicly available) to narrow the options.
Some aviation expert was postulating on something called "the leans" brought on my circling in a hold and due to flying in poor visibility which caused him to overcompensate when levelling off on landing. All theory though and with both flight crew dead it may remain theory.
I would think that an illusion due to circling in the holding pattern is seriously stretching the bounds of possibility. The holding pattern would have proceeded the 'approach' which would have been pretty much level wings for at least a few minutes. In addition aircraft hold all the time in cloud, every day, all over the world, without crashing on the landing that usually follows. Any balance issues caused by turning in the hold would have passed by the time they got to the ground.
It is possible this aircraft wasn't equipped for the low visibility reported at the time. The Captain was reported in the media to be a brand new Captain and the Co-pilot was reported to have 340 hours flying time. I don't know for sure if that is true or not. The Investigation will be able to confirm those issues almost immediately. It will also be able to confirm how much fuel was on board at the time and thus whether they were under severe pressure to land off that 3rd fatal approach. Most companies have a rule prohibiting a 3rd approach unless the visibility improves significantly. The investigation should also be able to tell whether the aircraft was in the correct position (both horizontally and vertically as well as speed and configuration - gear, flaps, etc) all the way to the runway. Any deviations found in the above could point them to the probable cause. If all of the above were fine then it gets much more difficult.
As you said about the illusion theory I think it would be impossible to prove definitively, but if the data recorder indicates a sudden unusual manoeuvre just before impact, with no system problem, they can probably suspect a visual illusion played some role.
Quote from: muppet on February 14, 2011, 01:05:12 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 14, 2011, 12:13:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on February 14, 2011, 12:07:33 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 13, 2011, 10:18:46 PM
Sunday Times article on the crash said that interviews with survivors have indicated that the starboard wing clipped the ground causing the plane to flip.
That would seem to be backed up with the green glass near the start of the runway.
That doesn't explain why the wing would make contact first though. There are any number of possibilities for that but no hard evidence yet (publicly available) to narrow the options.
Some aviation expert was postulating on something called "the leans" brought on my circling in a hold and due to flying in poor visibility which caused him to overcompensate when levelling off on landing. All theory though and with both flight crew dead it may remain theory.
I would think that an illusion due to circling in the holding pattern is seriously stretching the bounds of possibility. The holding pattern would have proceeded the 'approach' which would have been pretty much level wings for at least a few minutes. In addition aircraft hold all the time in cloud, every day, all over the world, without crashing on the landing that usually follows. Any balance issues caused by turning in the hold would have passed by the time they got to the ground.
It is possible this aircraft wasn't equipped for the low visibility reported at the time. The Captain was reported in the media to be a brand new Captain and the Co-pilot was reported to have 340 hours flying time. I don't know for sure if that is true or not. The Investigation will be able to confirm those issues almost immediately. It will also be able to confirm how much fuel was on board at the time and thus whether they were under severe pressure to land off that 3rd fatal approach. Most companies have a rule prohibiting a 3rd approach unless the visibility improves significantly. The investigation should also be able to tell whether the aircraft was in the correct position (both horizontally and vertically as well as speed and configuration - gear, flaps, etc) all the way to the runway. Any deviations found in the above could point them to the probable cause. If all of the above were fine then it gets much more difficult.
As you said about the illusion theory I think it would be impossible to prove definitively, but if the data recorder indicates a sudden unusual manoeuvre just before impact, with no system problem, they can probably suspect a visual illusion played some role.
The head of the airline says they put in an additional 1 hours worth of fuel as standard so even after the second go around Waterford and Kerry would still have been within range so this is why some people are speculating that the pilot saw a gap in the fog but ballsed it up due to this "leans" effect. To me though it seems he missed the runway which would suggest zero visibility at or near ground level. Anyways they are to release a brief report in the next couple of weeks with the caveat that full findings may take 2 years.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 14, 2011, 01:20:16 AM
Quote from: muppet on February 14, 2011, 01:05:12 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 14, 2011, 12:13:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on February 14, 2011, 12:07:33 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 13, 2011, 10:18:46 PM
Sunday Times article on the crash said that interviews with survivors have indicated that the starboard wing clipped the ground causing the plane to flip.
That would seem to be backed up with the green glass near the start of the runway.
That doesn't explain why the wing would make contact first though. There are any number of possibilities for that but no hard evidence yet (publicly available) to narrow the options.
Some aviation expert was postulating on something called "the leans" brought on my circling in a hold and due to flying in poor visibility which caused him to overcompensate when levelling off on landing. All theory though and with both flight crew dead it may remain theory.
I would think that an illusion due to circling in the holding pattern is seriously stretching the bounds of possibility. The holding pattern would have proceeded the 'approach' which would have been pretty much level wings for at least a few minutes. In addition aircraft hold all the time in cloud, every day, all over the world, without crashing on the landing that usually follows. Any balance issues caused by turning in the hold would have passed by the time they got to the ground.
It is possible this aircraft wasn't equipped for the low visibility reported at the time. The Captain was reported in the media to be a brand new Captain and the Co-pilot was reported to have 340 hours flying time. I don't know for sure if that is true or not. The Investigation will be able to confirm those issues almost immediately. It will also be able to confirm how much fuel was on board at the time and thus whether they were under severe pressure to land off that 3rd fatal approach. Most companies have a rule prohibiting a 3rd approach unless the visibility improves significantly. The investigation should also be able to tell whether the aircraft was in the correct position (both horizontally and vertically as well as speed and configuration - gear, flaps, etc) all the way to the runway. Any deviations found in the above could point them to the probable cause. If all of the above were fine then it gets much more difficult.
As you said about the illusion theory I think it would be impossible to prove definitively, but if the data recorder indicates a sudden unusual manoeuvre just before impact, with no system problem, they can probably suspect a visual illusion played some role.
The head of the airline says they put in an additional 1 hours worth of fuel as standard so even after the second go around Waterford and Kerry would still have been within range so this is why some people are speculating that the pilot saw a gap in the fog but ballsed it up due to this "leans" effect. To me though it seems he missed the runway which would suggest zero visibility at or near ground level. Anyways they are to release a brief report in the next couple of weeks with the caveat that full findings may take 2 years.
If it was reported to be zero visibility or even less than 550m (depending on his equipment) he shouldn't have made the approach as it would have been below his 'minimums'. However we don't know what his minimums were or what the tower told him the visibility was yet.
As for the one hour extra, that would be made up of (roughly) 30 minutes to fly to Waterford/Shannon/Farranfore plus 30 minutes extra. That is the legal minimum. (note - he can take more than the minimum fuel but not if restricted by any number of factors such as range, performance at the departure field, commercial pressures etc.)
We know he arrived at Cork, flew an approach to the south, then went around and flew and approach to the north (it may have been the other way round I'm not certain), then went off to a holding pattern and held for 20 minutes. That is easily 30 minutes of his 1 hour extra fuel used. He may (emphasising the
may here) by then have had less than the 30 needed to fly to another airport.
The leans, while serious at any time, is most serious at night. It can often be accompanied by somatographic illusion. Yours truly almost didn't make it one night when the lad I was conducting a night checkflight out of Newman, WA, incurred this and began accelerating as he pushed the yoke forward. He did not concentrate on his 'scan' of all the vital instruments instead fixating on one and missed vital clues. I picked up on it and took over, scary shit.
Re, the co-pilot having such low hours, well that is the reality of flying in Europe as training is so expensive. Such low time wouldn't even get you a job flying scenic flights in Oz in single-engined piston machines, never mind twin turbo-props.
Preliminary report out: http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13067-PRELIMINARY_REPORT_2011_005-0.PDF (http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13067-PRELIMINARY_REPORT_2011_005-0.PDF)
Quote from: muppet on March 16, 2011, 05:54:11 PM
Preliminary report out: http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13067-PRELIMINARY_REPORT_2011_005-0.PDF (http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13067-PRELIMINARY_REPORT_2011_005-0.PDF)
You're the expert (and there is a lot of technical guff in there), but my reading of it is that it appears they came in off centre and the place appears to have rolled to the left and the pilot over-compensated whilst pulling it back and in doing so clattered the right wing into the runway.
Quote from: muppet on March 16, 2011, 05:54:11 PM
Preliminary report out: http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13067-PRELIMINARY_REPORT_2011_005-0.PDF (http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13067-PRELIMINARY_REPORT_2011_005-0.PDF)
Harrowing report, some technical guff but frightening all the same
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 16, 2011, 06:34:14 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 16, 2011, 05:54:11 PM
Preliminary report out: http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13067-PRELIMINARY_REPORT_2011_005-0.PDF (http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13067-PRELIMINARY_REPORT_2011_005-0.PDF)
You're the expert (and there is a lot of technical guff in there), but my reading of it is that it appears they came in off centre and the place appears to have rolled to the left and the pilot over-compensated whilst pulling it back and in doing so clattered the right wing into the runway.
That looks like how it ended alright.
Only read it once but it appears that for all 3 approaches the reported RVRs (Runway Visual Range - visability reported in metres for the touchdown/midpoint/rollout sections of the runway) were below the minimum required for a Cat 1 aircraft which they were flying. That is not good for the pilots.
Secondly it says that while they were told (by Cork ATC) the weather at each of Waterford, Shannon and Dublin airports' was marginal, the weather at Kerry was good. It makes no mention of how much was on board at the time or how much flying time that translates into.
Quote from: muppet on March 16, 2011, 06:47:23 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 16, 2011, 06:34:14 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 16, 2011, 05:54:11 PM
Preliminary report out: http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13067-PRELIMINARY_REPORT_2011_005-0.PDF (http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13067-PRELIMINARY_REPORT_2011_005-0.PDF)
You're the expert (and there is a lot of technical guff in there), but my reading of it is that it appears they came in off centre and the place appears to have rolled to the left and the pilot over-compensated whilst pulling it back and in doing so clattered the right wing into the runway.
That looks like how it ended alright.
Only read it once but it appears that for all 3 approaches the reported RVRs (Runway Visual Range - visability reported in metres for the touchdown/midpoint/rollout sections of the runway) were below the minimum required for a Cat 1 aircraft which they were flying. That is not good for the pilots.
Secondly it says that while they were told (by Cork ATC) the weather at each of Waterford, Shannon and Dublin airports' was marginal, the weather at Kerry was good. It makes no mention of how much was on board at the time or how much flying time that translates into.
Picked up on this also, seems they did have enough fuel to get to Waterford or Kerry even back to Dublin!! Wont see my boss (who was on the flight) tomorrow but an email came in today with this report attached. I never read it of course but I'm sure he will feel annoyed after reading it.
Will the findings ensure that when matters like this arise again the plane must land at an Airport which has more visibility that's near by and not take that dreaded third approach?? Or will it be down to pilots choice as it seems to be the case?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2011, 08:21:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 16, 2011, 06:47:23 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 16, 2011, 06:34:14 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 16, 2011, 05:54:11 PM
Preliminary report out: http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13067-PRELIMINARY_REPORT_2011_005-0.PDF (http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13067-PRELIMINARY_REPORT_2011_005-0.PDF)
You're the expert (and there is a lot of technical guff in there), but my reading of it is that it appears they came in off centre and the place appears to have rolled to the left and the pilot over-compensated whilst pulling it back and in doing so clattered the right wing into the runway.
That looks like how it ended alright.
Only read it once but it appears that for all 3 approaches the reported RVRs (Runway Visual Range - visability reported in metres for the touchdown/midpoint/rollout sections of the runway) were below the minimum required for a Cat 1 aircraft which they were flying. That is not good for the pilots.
Secondly it says that while they were told (by Cork ATC) the weather at each of Waterford, Shannon and Dublin airports' was marginal, the weather at Kerry was good. It makes no mention of how much was on board at the time or how much flying time that translates into.
Picked up on this also, seems they did have enough fuel to get to Waterford or Kerry even back to Dublin!! Wont see my boss (who was on the flight) tomorrow but an email came in today with this report attached. I never read it of course but I'm sure he will feel annoyed after reading it.
Will the findings ensure that when matters like this arise again the plane must land at an Airport which has more visibility that's near by and not take that dreaded third approach?? Or will it be down to pilots choice as it seems to be the case?
The report said the 3rd approach ban wasn't a regulation. What I think he means is that it is not a universal regulation. Each airline must submit their own rules and procedures for approval by the authorities and that report hasn't ascertained whether that company had a 3rd approach rule. Most airlines as far as I know only allow a 3rd approach in certain circumstances, therefore for pilots at those particular airlines it is a regulation.
However they had already made two approaches to visibility that was less than the minimum required so regulations don't appear to have been a priority with this crew anyway.
I suspect the investigation will now focus on establishing:
a) what were the official company procedures for low visibility and inflight fuel management/diversion;
b) why the pilots ignored the visibility limits;
Just saw this, very sad. they guy who usually did the route had just left 2 days before the crash. He committed suicide on friday apparently due to the guilt.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/suicide-pilot-felt-guilty-over-cork-plane-crash-2632830.html (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/suicide-pilot-felt-guilty-over-cork-plane-crash-2632830.html)
Yeah read that a few days ago, very sad end to life.
BBC Spotlight programme on now about the crash.
Madness pure madness, Makes you wonder about what goes on before you get in that plane
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 17, 2011, 11:11:19 PM
Madness pure madness, Makes you wonder about what goes on before you get in that plane
Didnt see the show, what was the gist?
Before the flight, that plane (including the pilots) flew from Britain to Aldergrove delivering mail. The plane then flew to George Best Airport and the co-pilot (who actually flew the Belfast to Cork Flight) fitted the seats back into the plane and then took on board the passengers and their luggage.
He gave the usual flight safety brief to the passengers then went on to fly the plane to Cork.
He complained to his wife that he only ever got a few hours sleep sometimes due to the luggage/seat fitting/flying
The plane did not have additional maps that would have taken them to Kerry and was already under an investigation. Three separate companies involved, no one saying it's their fault!!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 17, 2011, 11:42:22 PM
Before the flight, that plane (including the pilots) flew from Britain to Aldergrove delivering mail. The plane then flew to George Best Airport and the co-pilot (who actually flew the Belfast to Cork Flight) fitted the seats back into the plane and then took on board the passengers and their luggage.
He gave the usual flight safety brief to the passengers then went on to fly the plane to Cork.
He complained to his wife that he only ever got a few hours sleep sometimes due to the luggage/seat fitting/flying
The plane did not have additional maps that would have taken them to Kerry and was already under an investigation. Three separate companies involved, no one saying it's their fault!!
Milltown, was it not that a similar plane had been taken off that route for not having the right maps, rather than the one that crashed?
The bit that seemed the dodgiest to me was the ambiguity between manx/aer linea or whatever their name was, and the other crowd as to who owned the planes etc was responsible for its safety..and when yer man went to the headquarters it was someones house....
My boss was told a few stories from the reporter that didn't come out on the show last night.
Maps were one issue at that needs to be investigated more, obviously the two pilots died and what knowledge they had is gone. Blame will take for ages due to the companies blaming each other. Horrible for the father of the pilot last night were people seemed to be blaming human error as opposed to equipment missing, conditions and other factors that didn't help.
Channel hopping last night and came across Air Crash Investigation on National Geographic which was about this crash (S13 ep6) It is repeated tomorrow morning at 4am for anyone interested.
Quote from: Agent Orange on May 06, 2015, 11:59:25 AM
Channel hopping last night and came across Air Crash Investigation on National Geographic which was about this crash (S13 ep6) It is repeated tomorrow morning at 4am for anyone interested.
Yeah I saw it last week, it was bad work all round
Quote from: Agent Orange on May 06, 2015, 11:59:25 AM
Channel hopping last night and came across Air Crash Investigation on National Geographic which was about this crash (S13 ep6) It is repeated tomorrow morning at 4am for anyone interested.
Thanks for the tip off. I'll try to find that.
While the media always try to name heroes within a day or two, I understand the local fire Cork Airport crew found the wreckage remarkably quickly (try searching a field the size of an airport in dense fog) and were able to pull out unconscious survivors before the fire took hold.