Time for Joe to go??

[AZOffaly]

I just took a look back at the game to see were Tyrone way more cynical than usual, or even way more than Monaghan on the day? I didn't try and ref the game myself, but I tried to record the fouls the Ref did give against the new Black Card rules for cynical fouls. There were a couple of other fouls on both sides that were marginal, but probably not as per the definition of cynical. I also did not judge lunges that knocked a player as 'dragging him down'. If I did Dick Clerkin would have picked up two black cards.

Remember the definition of the cynical foul is..
1) 'to deliberately pull down an opponent'
(2) 'to deliberately trip an opponent'
(3) 'to deliberately body collide with an opponent after he has played the ball away''
(4) 'to threaten or use abusive language or gestures to an opponent'
(5) 'to remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a match official'

I found that in the early days Monaghan were more cynical than Tyrone. The early black card type fouls were...

7 mins Tyrone 3, Clarke. Yellow Card. Tripping. Midfield.
9 Mins. Monaghan 11 Gollogly. Pulling Down. Own 65
11 mins. Monaghan 14 Hughes. Pulling Down. Opponents 20.
12 min. Monaghan 12 Malone. Yellow Card. Tripping/Pulling down.  Own 65.
15 mins Tyrone 4. McCarron. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Own 20.
16 Mins Monaghan 9. Hughes. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside own 45.

Even at that only McCarron's yellow was your clear cut case for Tyrone. Clarkes was actually a trip on a lad making a defensive run when Tyrone had the ball. All of Monaghan's, bar Hughes unfortunate one, were fairly obvious black card momentum killers.

Hughes' foul that got him his yellow would have got him a black, and this is Hardy's fear because that was really a dive. But as I said I didn't try to ref the game myself.

Interestingly, after that spate there was a period of little or no cynicism, and tellingly, that was the period where Tyrone kicked on and probably won the game. Even allowing for Hughes' dilution as a marking force on Cavanagh, the rest of the Monaghan team also stopped fouling as much.

Then from 27 minutes to half time we had another spate of 'black card' type fouls, except now Tyrone were in front, and committing most of them, with some of them being textbook. The worst one was probably Duffy's for Monaghan's though.

27 Mins. Monaghan 2. Duffy. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside Opponents 65.
30 Mins. Tyrone 5. McGinley. Pulling Down. Inside own 65.
31 Mins. Tyrone 15. Penrose. Blocking the Run. Opponents 65.
32 Mins. Tyrone 15 Penrose. Pulling Down. Inside Opponents 65.

Interesting that Penrose did two of these, although one on Mone in particular looked like Mone dived. Either way Penrose was losing the rag a little, and it's not a shock that he was involved in that altercation at half time when you see the way he seemed to be on the edge just before the break.

The second half was cynicism free until the dying minutes apart from Cavanaghs intervention.

48 Mins . Tyrone 9. Cavanagh. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside Own 20.
60 Minutes. Monaghan 24. Freeman. Yellow Card. Opponents 45.
61 Mins. Tyrone 3. Clarke. Pulling Down. Outside Own 20.
69 Mins. Tyrone 6. Harte. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Opponents 45.

Again, Freeman's foul and Harte's foul were the epitome of the cynical foul.

Darren Hughes and Clerkin, as stated, also had a couple of dicey ones, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they were awkward as opposed to 'pulling down'.

Overall, Monaghan had what I would call 6 black cards, and Tyrone had 8. It seemed, however, that Monaghan started in that frame of mind, and went away from it after half time, notwithstanding a couple of dicey ones from their midfielders. Tyrone seemed to ratchet it up to protect the lead at the end of the first half, and again at the end of the second half. That's probably why they are being singled out, because their fouls are coming at tense portions of the game, and usually defending a lead. Harte's yellow was like a demostration video of why the card was brought in, but as I said, Duffy's and Freeman's were as bad, not to mind some of the early stuff from Monaghan.

Again, way too much of it, from both sides, but Sean Cavanagh's incident was far from being the only example of cynicism, it's just the one that Joe Brolly decided to jump on for some reason.

[popinpopout]

I think Joe went OTT but there is no doubting the fact he's right!!

Mickey Harte always talks about how good our games are and how much better the GAA is than everyone else. Talking about Hypocrisy and there's your answer. Mickey Harte and Cavanagh are 2 of our games role models and should be held to a higher standard than diving and systematic fouling!

The defence by Tyronies on here is " but everyone else does it" I will point you to the reply my Mother used for years "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it too?"

Yes others are at it but Tyrone the longest and that's ten years of Cavanagh getting lads booked and sent off with his diving and Harte pretending his team don't engage in the dark arts when he's had McMenamim, Gormley and Cavanagh on his teams for years.

Joe should stand up for our games as Mickey Harte doesn't seem to want to bar his outrage at the International Rules. Joe always played the game in the spirit it was intended so he's as well placed as anyone to stand up for what's right!

thats a fairly contentious post there - final line about Joe always playing the game in the right spirit just lets you down. alot.

Absolutely correct.....there was no one better than Joe Brolly at the old pull down the defender and buy a free for yourself than himself. Cheating? Take a look at Derry v Tyrone in 2006.....Raymond Mulgrew was systematically kicked and pulled up and down the pitch in the first half constantly....and Joe loved it

[Gabriel_Hurl]

[Wildweasel74]

Its made the UTV news now and was on Nolan this morning ha ha

[BennyHarp]

I just took a look back at the game to see were Tyrone way more cynical than usual, or even way more than Monaghan on the day? I didn't try and ref the game myself, but I tried to record the fouls the Ref did give against the new Black Card rules for cynical fouls. There were a couple of other fouls on both sides that were marginal, but probably not as per the definition of cynical. I also did not judge lunges that knocked a player as 'dragging him down'. If I did Dick Clerkin would have picked up two black cards.

Remember the definition of the cynical foul is..
1) 'to deliberately pull down an opponent'
(2) 'to deliberately trip an opponent'
(3) 'to deliberately body collide with an opponent after he has played the ball away''
(4) 'to threaten or use abusive language or gestures to an opponent'
(5) 'to remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a match official'

I found that in the early days Monaghan were more cynical than Tyrone. The early black card type fouls were...

7 mins Tyrone 3, Clarke. Yellow Card. Tripping. Midfield.
9 Mins. Monaghan 11 Gollogly. Pulling Down. Own 65
11 mins. Monaghan 14 Hughes. Pulling Down. Opponents 20.
12 min. Monaghan 12 Malone. Yellow Card. Tripping/Pulling down.  Own 65.
15 mins Tyrone 4. McCarron. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Own 20.
16 Mins Monaghan 9. Hughes. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside own 45.

Even at that only McCarron's yellow was your clear cut case for Tyrone. Clarkes was actually a trip on a lad making a defensive run when Tyrone had the ball. All of Monaghan's, bar Hughes unfortunate one, were fairly obvious black card momentum killers.

Hughes' foul that got him his yellow would have got him a black, and this is Hardy's fear because that was really a dive. But as I said I didn't try to ref the game myself.

Interestingly, after that spate there was a period of little or no cynicism, and tellingly, that was the period where Tyrone kicked on and probably won the game. Even allowing for Hughes' dilution as a marking force on Cavanagh, the rest of the Monaghan team also stopped fouling as much.

Then from 27 minutes to half time we had another spate of 'black card' type fouls, except now Tyrone were in front, and committing most of them, with some of them being textbook. The worst one was probably Duffy's for Monaghan's though.

27 Mins. Monaghan 2. Duffy. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside Opponents 65.
30 Mins. Tyrone 5. McGinley. Pulling Down. Inside own 65.
31 Mins. Tyrone 15. Penrose. Blocking the Run. Opponents 65.
32 Mins. Tyrone 15 Penrose. Pulling Down. Inside Opponents 65.

Interesting that Penrose did two of these, although one on Mone in particular looked like Mone dived. Either way Penrose was losing the rag a little, and it's not a shock that he was involved in that altercation at half time when you see the way he seemed to be on the edge just before the break.

The second half was cynicism free until the dying minutes apart from Cavanaghs intervention.

48 Mins . Tyrone 9. Cavanagh. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside Own 20.
60 Minutes. Monaghan 24. Freeman. Yellow Card. Opponents 45.
61 Mins. Tyrone 3. Clarke. Pulling Down. Outside Own 20.
69 Mins. Tyrone 6. Harte. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Opponents 45.

Again, Freeman's foul and Harte's foul were the epitome of the cynical foul.

Darren Hughes and Clerkin, as stated, also had a couple of dicey ones, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they were awkward as opposed to 'pulling down'.

Overall, Monaghan had what I would call 6 black cards, and Tyrone had 8. It seemed, however, that Monaghan started in that frame of mind, and went away from it after half time, notwithstanding a couple of dicey ones from their midfielders. Tyrone seemed to ratchet it up to protect the lead at the end of the first half, and again at the end of the second half. That's probably why they are being singled out, because their fouls are coming at tense portions of the game, and usually defending a lead. Harte's yellow was like a demostration video of why the card was brought in, but as I said, Duffy's and Freeman's were as bad, not to mind some of the early stuff from Monaghan.

Again, way too much of it, from both sides, but Sean Cavanagh's incident was far from being the only example of cynicism, it's just the one that Joe Brolly decided to jump on for some reason.

Now that's the level of stats and analysis I'd expect from professional pundits on TV. Not biased, premeditated rants. Good post AZ

[blewuporstuffed]

I just took a look back at the game to see were Tyrone way more cynical than usual, or even way more than Monaghan on the day? I didn't try and ref the game myself, but I tried to record the fouls the Ref did give against the new Black Card rules for cynical fouls. There were a couple of other fouls on both sides that were marginal, but probably not as per the definition of cynical. I also did not judge lunges that knocked a player as 'dragging him down'. If I did Dick Clerkin would have picked up two black cards.

Remember the definition of the cynical foul is..
1) 'to deliberately pull down an opponent'
(2) 'to deliberately trip an opponent'
(3) 'to deliberately body collide with an opponent after he has played the ball away''
(4) 'to threaten or use abusive language or gestures to an opponent'
(5) 'to remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a match official'

I found that in the early days Monaghan were more cynical than Tyrone. The early black card type fouls were...

7 mins Tyrone 3, Clarke. Yellow Card. Tripping. Midfield.
9 Mins. Monaghan 11 Gollogly. Pulling Down. Own 65
11 mins. Monaghan 14 Hughes. Pulling Down. Opponents 20.
12 min. Monaghan 12 Malone. Yellow Card. Tripping/Pulling down.  Own 65.
15 mins Tyrone 4. McCarron. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Own 20.
16 Mins Monaghan 9. Hughes. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside own 45.

Even at that only McCarron's yellow was your clear cut case for Tyrone. Clarkes was actually a trip on a lad making a defensive run when Tyrone had the ball. All of Monaghan's, bar Hughes unfortunate one, were fairly obvious black card momentum killers.

Hughes' foul that got him his yellow would have got him a black, and this is Hardy's fear because that was really a dive. But as I said I didn't try to ref the game myself.

Interestingly, after that spate there was a period of little or no cynicism, and tellingly, that was the period where Tyrone kicked on and probably won the game. Even allowing for Hughes' dilution as a marking force on Cavanagh, the rest of the Monaghan team also stopped fouling as much.

Then from 27 minutes to half time we had another spate of 'black card' type fouls, except now Tyrone were in front, and committing most of them, with some of them being textbook. The worst one was probably Duffy's for Monaghan's though.

27 Mins. Monaghan 2. Duffy. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside Opponents 65.
30 Mins. Tyrone 5. McGinley. Pulling Down. Inside own 65.
31 Mins. Tyrone 15. Penrose. Blocking the Run. Opponents 65.
32 Mins. Tyrone 15 Penrose. Pulling Down. Inside Opponents 65.

Interesting that Penrose did two of these, although one on Mone in particular looked like Mone dived. Either way Penrose was losing the rag a little, and it's not a shock that he was involved in that altercation at half time when you see the way he seemed to be on the edge just before the break.

The second half was cynicism free until the dying minutes apart from Cavanaghs intervention.

48 Mins . Tyrone 9. Cavanagh. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside Own 20.
60 Minutes. Monaghan 24. Freeman. Yellow Card. Opponents 45.
61 Mins. Tyrone 3. Clarke. Pulling Down. Outside Own 20.
69 Mins. Tyrone 6. Harte. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Opponents 45.

Again, Freeman's foul and Harte's foul were the epitome of the cynical foul.

Darren Hughes and Clerkin, as stated, also had a couple of dicey ones, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they were awkward as opposed to 'pulling down'.

Overall, Monaghan had what I would call 6 black cards, and Tyrone had 8. It seemed, however, that Monaghan started in that frame of mind, and went away from it after half time, notwithstanding a couple of dicey ones from their midfielders. Tyrone seemed to ratchet it up to protect the lead at the end of the first half, and again at the end of the second half. That's probably why they are being singled out, because their fouls are coming at tense portions of the game, and usually defending a lead. Harte's yellow was like a demostration video of why the card was brought in, but as I said, Duffy's and Freeman's were as bad, not to mind some of the early stuff from Monaghan.

Again, way too much of it, from both sides, but Sean Cavanagh's incident was far from being the only example of cynicism, it's just the one that Joe Brolly decided to jump on for some reason.

Now that's the level of stats and analysis I'd expect from professional pundits on TV. Not biased, premeditated rants. Good post AZ

Really good post, instead of the brolly led hysteria, it's good to see someone having a proper look at the issue.
It would be interesting to compare this against other games in the championship to see if its in any way out of the ordinary. (And I would suspect it isn't)

[Wildweasel74]

G AZ go out and do the garden or something, that stuff was hard enough to watch first time round

[Any craic]

Now this is interesting: the FRC black card video shown at Congress & posted by one Joe Brolly & with no Tyrone on it, apart from a foul on Stevie O'Neill! Maybe everyone does do it Joe...
http://balls.ie/gaa/here-is-the-video-shown-to-at-the-gaa-congress-highlighting-the-need-for-the-black-card/

[fermanagh_fan]

Regards the weekend Joe brolly. I agree Sean Cavanagh commuted a foul but he was punished for it but what annoys me is that if the monaghan forward had managed to score a goal or point from play the ref would have had to disallow same as as many times as I have watched the replays McManus had taken seven steps as opposed to four without hopping the ball

[ross matt]

I dunno..... Brolly has always been a shit stirring, disrespectful self publicist. To be fair to him his recent rant seemed genuine rather than orchestrated. But a bit late in the day for Joe to latch on to the high integrity platform.

I think he should go. But so also should O'Rourke. By his own admission he was a member of a high achieving but very cynical and often thuggish Meath side. Very fond of the reverse elbow movement was our Colm as a defender approached him from behind after he won the ball. Always found it a bit rich to listen to O'Rourke lecturing about the evils of "pullin & draggin" when he was a past master of it himself ... particularly in the replayed AI final v Cork. Colm now is mostly an "I'll take the handy money" friendly old uncle type of analysist.

Spillane was (like O'Rourke) a brilliant footballer. But in his hey day he could track back in to his own defense and get on the ball like a Galvin or Dooher and he was a tremendous exponent in the olympic skills long before "puke football" Tyrone.  Leaving all that aside he is a very poor speaker and a faded sensationalist style analysist.

Point being... all  3 are past their sell by date and are a poor return for license payer's money. Get rid of Brolly. Get rid of all of them.

[Jinxy]

I dunno..... Brolly has always been a shit stirring, disrespectful self publicist. To be fair to him his recent rant seemed genuine rather than orchestrated. But a bit late in the day for Joe to latch on to the high integrity platform.

I think he should go. But so also should O'Rourke. By his own admission he was a member of a high achieving but very cynical and often thuggish Mayo side. Very fond of the reverse elbow movement was our Colm as a defender approached him from behind after he won the ball. Always found it a bit rich to listen to O'Rourke lecturing about the evils of "pullin & draggin" when he was a past master of it himself ... particularly in the replayed AI final v Cork. Colm now is mostly an "I'll take the handy money" friendly old uncle type of analysist.

Spillane was (like O'Rourke) a brilliant footballer. But in his hey day he could track back in to his own defense and get on the ball like a Galvin or Dooher and he was a tremendous exponent in the olympic skills long before "puke football" Tyrone.  Leaving all that aside he is a very poor speaker and a faded sensationalist style analysist.

Point being... all  3 are past their sell by date and are a poor return for license payer's money. Get rid of Brolly. Get rid of all of them.

Somewhere...... a village is missing its idiot.

[ross matt]

I dunno..... Brolly has always been a shit stirring, disrespectful self publicist. To be fair to him his recent rant seemed genuine rather than orchestrated. But a bit late in the day for Joe to latch on to the high integrity platform.

I think he should go. But so also should O'Rourke. By his own admission he was a member of a high achieving but very cynical and often thuggish Mayo side. Very fond of the reverse elbow movement was our Colm as a defender approached him from behind after he won the ball. Always found it a bit rich to listen to O'Rourke lecturing about the evils of "pullin & draggin" when he was a past master of it himself ... particularly in the replayed AI final v Cork. Colm now is mostly an "I'll take the handy money" friendly old uncle type of analysist.

Spillane was (like O'Rourke) a brilliant footballer. But in his hey day he could track back in to his own defense and get on the ball like a Galvin or Dooher and he was a tremendous exponent in the olympic skills long before "puke football" Tyrone.  Leaving all that aside he is a very poor speaker and a faded sensationalist style analysist.

Point being... all  3 are past their sell by date and are a poor return for license payer's money. Get rid of Brolly. Get rid of all of them.

Somewhere...... a village is missing its idiot.

Edited the Meath instead of Mayo error. Stand by the rest of the post. Playing the man instead of the ball Jinxy. Colm would be proud of you.

[Wildweasel74]

Colm O`Rourke was one of the greatest forwards i seen, best player i seen play for Meath and one of the few players Dublin feared anytime they played them, still remember his performance back in 93 when he had a stormer even though on the losing team. That Meath team was full of hard men like Lyons, O`Malley, Harnan, Gerry Mc, O`Rourke, C Coyle etc rather went through you than round. They were over physical at the time many would say dirty, i wouldnt have called them cynical but there were very confrontational especially with Cork. As for him pullin and draggin, any time i say him play he literally had men hanging of him, Got a ferocious hit from K barr one time in 91,many man been stretched off with it, but got up and played on, and concentrated on winning the game not getting back at Barr!

[north down]

To be honest I think Joe is actually an undercover Tyrone fan and was conspiring with Mickey Harte to build a siege mentality to spur on the Tyrone players

[ross matt]

Colm O`Rourke was one of the greatest forwards i seen, best player i seen play for Meath and one of the few players Dublin feared anytime they played them, still remember his performance back in 93 when he had a stormer even though on the losing team. That Meath team was full of hard men like Lyons, O`Malley, Harnan, Gerry Mc, O`Rourke, C Coyle etc rather went through you than round. They were over physical at the time many would say dirty, i wouldnt have called them cynical but there were very confrontational especially with Cork. As for him pullin and draggin, any time i say him play he literally had men hanging of him, Got a ferocious hit from K barr one time in 91,many man been stretched off with it, but got up and played on, and concentrated on winning the game not getting back at Barr!

O'Rourke's ability as a player or his physical toughness is not in doubt. That hit you refer to was a sandwich between Barr & Heary. He was knocked out, concussed but came back on and played on despite having no memory of doing so.

But by his own admission (after McEntee was sent off) he pulled down more Cork players than any other Meath player in the 2nd half of the replayed AI final. Intelligent, focussed but cynical. Totally hypocritical to have him on tv preaching about the merits of "free flowing football". He is well past his sell by date. RTE needs to do a clear out.