The Poppy

[MW]

It's very hard to get stats on number of people wearing the Poppy, which is why 'evidence' is all anecdotal. Mybe this is an indication

In 2006, Northern Ireland raised £885,000 for the appeal. I don't know how much per poppy to give a number sold amount. Also I'm sure it includes non-poppy donations.
In 2006 the overall figure raised by the Legion was 27.7 million. So, the Northern Ireland amount was about 3.2 percent of funds.

Given the fact that NI makes up approx 3% of the population of the UK as well (office of National Statistics for the UK - 2009), it would appear that at face value NI is raising approx it's fair share.

Of course the Caveat here is that in real terms, it's more likely that 1.5% of the population is raising 3% of the funds, but I'm sure a similar deduction could be made for various other groups in the UK that would not buy the Poppy.

anyway, there's a few actual numbers for ye to cogitate on

Where did you get these figures AZO??

The figures for Poppies sold in 2006 comes from this http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-169972138.html

However, EG, just to clarify something, I'm not making any case, I'm just trying to help contextualise the debate One could argue that with a significant amount of nationalists in NI, then actually the 1.5% of the population that would buy poppies in NI are buying twice as much as their 'fair share'.

But I'm not arguing either way. I just thought it was interesting

The figure you quoted was for the size of donations, not numbers of poppies worn.

So running with your interpretation, this would mean that Northern Irish donors could be giving more per donation than their counterparts in Great Britain. Which would fly in the face of people just wanting to wear poppies as a "f**k you symbol".

If someone just wanted to wear one to make a partisan political point, rather than to engage in remembrance and help the Poppy Appeal, then surely they would simply give an insignificant or token donation in order to simply get their hands on one.

There's my hypothesis anyway

[AZOffaly]

don't you live in Cork now?

No, Tipperary. Newport to be exact.

[AZOffaly]

It's very hard to get stats on number of people wearing the Poppy, which is why 'evidence' is all anecdotal. Mybe this is an indication

In 2006, Northern Ireland raised £885,000 for the appeal. I don't know how much per poppy to give a number sold amount. Also I'm sure it includes non-poppy donations.
In 2006 the overall figure raised by the Legion was 27.7 million. So, the Northern Ireland amount was about 3.2 percent of funds.

Given the fact that NI makes up approx 3% of the population of the UK as well (office of National Statistics for the UK - 2009), it would appear that at face value NI is raising approx it's fair share.

Of course the Caveat here is that in real terms, it's more likely that 1.5% of the population is raising 3% of the funds, but I'm sure a similar deduction could be made for various other groups in the UK that would not buy the Poppy.

anyway, there's a few actual numbers for ye to cogitate on

Where did you get these figures AZO??

The figures for Poppies sold in 2006 comes from this http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-169972138.html

However, EG, just to clarify something, I'm not making any case, I'm just trying to help contextualise the debate One could argue that with a significant amount of nationalists in NI, then actually the 1.5% of the population that would buy poppies in NI are buying twice as much as their 'fair share'.

But I'm not arguing either way. I just thought it was interesting

The figure you quoted was for the size of donations, not numbers of poppies worn.

So running with your interpretation, this would mean that Northern Irish donors could be giving more per donation than their counterparts in Great Britain. Which would fly in the face of people just wanting to wear poppies as a "f**k you symbol".

If someone just wanted to wear one to make a partisan political point, rather than to engage in remembrance and help the Poppy Appeal, then surely they would simply give an insignificant or token donation in order to simply get their hands on one.

There's my hypothesis anyway

I realise that MW. All I'm saying is I'm not arguing one way or the other. I've already said that there's no numbers to support a view on either side about the wearing of the poppy.

[A Quinn Martin Production]

It's very hard to get stats on number of people wearing the Poppy, which is why 'evidence' is all anecdotal. Mybe this is an indication

In 2006, Northern Ireland raised £885,000 for the appeal. I don't know how much per poppy to give a number sold amount. Also I'm sure it includes non-poppy donations.
In 2006 the overall figure raised by the Legion was 27.7 million. So, the Northern Ireland amount was about 3.2 percent of funds.

Given the fact that NI makes up approx 3% of the population of the UK as well (office of National Statistics for the UK - 2009), it would appear that at face value NI is raising approx it's fair share.

Of course the Caveat here is that in real terms, it's more likely that 1.5% of the population is raising 3% of the funds, but I'm sure a similar deduction could be made for various other groups in the UK that would not buy the Poppy.

anyway, there's a few actual numbers for ye to cogitate on

Where did you get these figures AZO??

The figures for Poppies sold in 2006 comes from this http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-169972138.html

However, EG, just to clarify something, I'm not making any case, I'm just trying to help contextualise the debate One could argue that with a significant amount of nationalists in NI, then actually the 1.5% of the population that would buy poppies in NI are buying twice as much as their 'fair share'.

But I'm not arguing either way. I just thought it was interesting

The figure you quoted was for the size of donations, not numbers of poppies worn.

So running with your interpretation, this would mean that Northern Irish donors could be giving more per donation than their counterparts in Great Britain. Which would fly in the face of people just wanting to wear poppies as a "f**k you symbol".

If someone just wanted to wear one to make a partisan political point, rather than to engage in remembrance and help the Poppy Appeal, then surely they would simply give an insignificant or token donation in order to simply get their hands on one.

There's my hypothesis anyway

I realise that MW. All I'm saying is I'm not arguing one way or the other. I've already said that there's no numbers to support a view on either side about the wearing of the poppy.

The figures referred to and indeed provided by the British Legion, do these not refer to the amount raised by the "Poppy Appeal" rather than the numbers of poppies sold?  There are many ways of making a donation to the Poppy Appeal other than "buying" a poppy (though I would guess this is where the bulk of donations come from at this time of year).  Also there is a separate appeal in Scotland (for some reason), so I'm not 100% sure whether any figures quoted include Scotland.  I would also think that the total figure includes a small number of people who lose their poppy and buy a second or third.  The RBL website gives the current "total" raised as £4.4 mill, given their target was £31 mill are they not as bit behind or maybe the website hasn't been updated for a while or they haven't counted the money in all the tins yet?

[lynchbhoy]

Anecdotal evidence points to more people wear the poppy in NI and for a longer period.
Is that disputed?

All depends whose anecdotes you're talking about. Certainly if it is someone like Lynchbhoy, who clearly feels he can discern a Poppy-wearer's motives without ever even having asked him/her, I wouldn't give it any credibility.

Myself, AZOffally and others have given relevant statistics to back our respective cases, you (and Lynchbhoy et alia) have given only "anecdotal evidence" [sic] to back yours.

Try harder.

On the contrary I have not given anecdotal evidence on this matter,
Also I am pretty sure AZoffally stated clearly that he had no statistics on the wearing of the poppy, do you?

Have you offered evidence to counteract the claims that more people in NI wear the poppy and for longer than the rest of the people in the UK?
I have no way to compare.
Although I do recall being in England around this time I have no memory of the poppy wearing, one way or another

thats it in a nutshell !
I think you will find that enid gaafan DOES know this and is merely as per usual trying to divert the spotlight away from this.

I think mw is misinterpreting his own point too - if he is saying that proportionally more in the north of Ireland buy poppies than in England - then its another tidbit of evidence of 'badge wearing' !
why do so many in the north of Ireland wear/buy poppies when those in England dont !!!

[Aerlik]

Seeing as it's neither witty, original or even relevant, that comment is like the rest of your post: worthless.

Really?  I would have thought that such a pansophical sage of history as you would in fact have realised that there was more than an iota of truth in his comment.

Gobshite, the fact is, if the poppy was worn as a commemoration of the two world wars rather than as a reminder to many Irish people in the wee six of the war crimes committed by the UDR and the RUC masquerading as loyalist "terrorists" then perhaps we would grant you your wee parade.  But that cannot be until such times as acknowledgement of state terrorism is confronted.

[saffron sam2]

Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel take part in the Armistice Day ceremony at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris.

What's the difference between what Frau Merkel is up to in your photo and what the gentleman (an Irishman I believe) in this photo is doing?



Perhaps you could also tell me exactly who you think the gentleman (known simply as Torrens to erstwhile gaaboard poster 'the dowie') in the middle of the photo below is commerating.



Bear in mind that the picture was taken as the individual was being led into court to be charged with mass murder, including that of a former UDR man.

[A Quinn Martin Production]

Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel take part in the Armistice Day ceremony at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris.

What's the difference between what Frau Merkel is up to in your photo and what the gentleman (an Irishman I believe) in this photo is doing?



Perhaps you could also tell me exactly who you think the gentleman (known simply as Torrens to erstwhile gaaboard poster 'the dowie') in the middle of the photo below is commerating.



Bear in mind that the picture was taken as the individual was being led into court to be charged with mass murder, including that of a former UDR man.

Trust the French to come up with a trendy purple poppy!

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Its simple lads, if the Brits could manage not to start another war from this point on, in 60 years there will be f**k all need for these poppies and future generations can live on without this antiquated stupidity.

Also if British/Unionist culture could move on from anti-Catholicism and related marches and vendettas such as the 12'Th marches, the Apprentice Boys marches, the sectarian Guy Forkes Day or the belief that the Poppish Plot was real as opposed to the proven propaganda. Or as recent as World War I when Lloyd George tried to bring down the Asquith government on the basis of "a most Catholic of conspiracies" i.e. claiming the Catholics controlled the upper echelons of British society (sounds similar to Germany, 1930's and the Jews!!!). Or maybe remove its sectarian model for head of state (one that actually discriminates against women, divorcees, non-Anglicans etc.)

"Or as recent as World War I when Lloyd George tried..." 

Meanwhile, in other news from Mayo, a strange contraption known as a "horseless carriage" was reported as being seen in the main street in Ballintubber. It was said by amazed witnesses to be proceeding at an estimated 7 miles per hour (Irish miles) and caused a large sow to have to shift from out of the gutter rather more quickly than you might expect. Mrs. O'Grady reported that her hens have since stopped laying.

And in Belderrig, the local Priest, Father Casey, stuck a man to the road for four hours, as penance for confessing that he had been entertaining impure thoughts of a woman - and him only married to her for 28 years! (See page 7 for an artist's impression of the scene)...

Just trying to deflect from my post as you know all of what I said was true.

We use kilometers, as in metric in Ireland not the archaic Imperial system. Yet another thing backwards and dated about Britain.

Mrs. O'Grady must be a blow in, as its not a very Mayo name to be honest. Google Earth must be a great thing to help you find random places in Mayo.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

I'm not talking about perceptions and I'm not here to defend FG.

Zapatista made bald statements that are complete nonsense, including that FG were a Unionist party (later he changed it to "unionist with a small u") and "wanted a union with Britian". Pure shite. He then went on to say that support for the current arrangement on the North equalled Unionism. More shite. As I said, that definition would make SF, as participants in the arrangement, even  more Unionist than FG. 

And even if it were FG policy to seek entry to the commonwealth, that's still not Unionism. Or even unionism.

Anyway I'm finished - let FG speak for themselves, but I don't think you'll see them running anytime soon on a platform of re-formation of the United Kingdom Of Great Britain And Ireland.

I didn't expect ye to go on a rant from my initial post were I'd have try to explain why Fg are unionist.

Fine Gael are NOT unionists, they ARE NATIONALISTS, 
Achieved Irish Independence,
Declared the Irish Republic,
END OF ARGUMENT

Anything else is just guttersnipe slander.

[Evil Genius]

Well I've said on here what my experiences are from living in England and have yet to get a explanation as to why there are far more poppies on display in the North than you would ever see here.  To clarify, again, I'm not talking about sales I'm talking about poppies being on display. 
Have you any suggestions why this is the case

First, you have produced no evidence to demonstrate that there are "far more" Poppies on display in NI than GB. By contrast, others have provided hard statistics to demonstrate that both the numbers of Poppies bought, and the money raised, in NI is broadly in line with that in GB.
Second, I would not trust your "experiences" - especially since they are contradicted by my own. I suspect you mean perception  rather than experience. For example, if you were drinking in a pub in the Outer Hebrides and two black guys walk in, you might do a "double take" before resuming your drink. But if you were in a pub in London, you wouldn't even notice. Yet its still the same number of black guys. Therefore, since you are clearly so sensitive to imagery and symbols etc, your perception alters accordingly.
Third, if more people in NI display Poppies more often than people in certain parts of GB, then that may be explained by the fact that many more people in NI (from one community at least) have friends and relatives in the Armed Forces, including ones who have been killed or injured.
Therefore, I daresay the incidence of Poppy-wearing in eg a multi-cultural, high immigrant inner city area of London may  be low, since the only military personnel locals or visitors see are guarding Buckingham Palace, or the Beefeaters in the Tower! But I guarantee that if you go to, say, Portsmouth, Aldershot, Colchester, Hereford, Catterick or the Scottish Borders etc, more people will be wearing Poppies than not.

or is is simply down to the fact that quite a few in NI want to rub the other sides noses in it?

Ah, here we get to the nub of the problem. Even if one of the motives of some Poppy wearers is to demonstrate their "Britishness", how is that "rubbing the other sides noses in it", any more than someone wearing a GAA top as a demonstration of his "Irishness" (Gaeldom?) might be perceived to be "rubbing the other sides noses in it"?
I am an Atheist, with no time for organised religion. Indeed, I find certain aspects of religious practice by the various Faiths to be objectionable to one degree or another.
But I have no right to project my feelings on others, or hold it against them in any way, merely because they might be displaying a Cross or Crescent, or wearing a Yamulka or Turban etc, since it is simply none of my business.

[Evil Genius]

I'm sure a few want to rub their noses in it but I'd also wager that the majority wear it for the 'proper reasons'.

Suspicion will never be lost in this country, that's for sure.

So is it just a case that unionists in the six counties are more patriotic and appreciative than the English?

It may be that some  Unionists in NI are more concerned to demonstrate their patriotism etc because their place in the UK has until recently been under greater challenge than that of their compatriots in England. I have no doubt, however, that there was an outpouring of overt patriotism throughout the UK during the Blitz of 1940, or the Falklands War in 1982, for instance.
Also, the Poppy has a particular resonance in NI following the Remembrance Day Massacre in Enniskillen in 1987. Perhaps that was the fault of Unionists, too? 

I dont buy that.

No, and you don't buy Poppies, either, yet you still take it upon yourself to dictate to those of us who do what our motives are. 

[Evil Genius]

Jaysus Lads. I'd forgive EG, but any fíor gael should know it's AZO-F-F-A-L-Y. 2 'F's 1 'L'. It's a county for Jaysus' sake

Righto, "AZKingsCounty" it is, then

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

[any more than someone wearing a GAA top as a demonstration of his "Irishness" (Gaeldom?) might be perceived to be "rubbing the other sides noses in it"?

Don't wear mine to show my Irishness at all, wear it to show I'm from County Mayo, wouldn't claim its the best place in the Universe, but clearly the best by a country kilometer in the Milky Way.

Also the GAA is not an Army, terrorist organisation or military in any way. Perhaps the Easter Lilly is a closer comparison, but then again when I look at someone wearing one of those the first thought that comes to my head is the same as if I see someone wearing a poppy, and that first thought is t**t (and not in the good way)

[saffron sam2]

Third, if more people in NI display Poppies more often than people in certain parts of GB, then that may be explained by the fact that many more people in NI (from one community at least) have friends and relatives in the Armed Forces, including ones who have been killed or injured.

Genuine question. Is that true? Can you point to stats that back that fact up?