Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

[dublin7]

Angelo how many SF politicians take only the average industrial wage or is it no longer the case.Many working class voters as you describe most SF people i am sure would like to know.We do know all other parties max it to the limit.I left out something about middle class teachers as well.They are the reason our beloved national game flourishes due to their unselfish commitment in coaching pupils all over the island.

The SF politicians in the south claim their full wages. What they used to do was give some of it to the party. it's a nice PR trick. They can claim they aren't getting taking home the same wages as the other TDs while SF gets to build up funds to use come the elections 

[skeog]

Thanks Dublin 7 for that.So its a bit of some do some dont.Would you clarify for me would teachers be comfortable middle class that Angelo has them portrayed here in the north.

[Angelo]

Serious question.

Would people actually consider the SDLP nationalist?

Yes.

Any SDLP politicians I know are nationalist and able . SF though the largest party have not been capitalising on the growing nationalist demographic, Alliance has capitalised on this demographic, as the post-troubles generation are attracted by the middle ground. SF biggest problem is avoiding controversy to try and capture more of the middle ground. Hardliners (excluding the tiny percentage who are dissident) are shoo-in and likely to remain loyal , but there is ground to be made closer to the middle . In addition , Hard left ideology brings with it a ceiling to its support, and though attractive to those suffering through poverty, the middle ground are nervous that at a time of uncertainty due to brexit, Covid and potential border poll, a hard left government could be disastrous. SF's only chance of increasing its vote is trying to capture the middle ground, that will involve softening its hard left reputation and showing genuine remorse for victims of the conflict . They are on the verge of power north and south but lack allies, and will have to build up relationships with parties closest to them, and get the young vote out particularly

SF have the support levels they need, they are not going to win any more ground than they already have. SDLP and Alliance are probably as well subsume each other, they have that kind of middle ground won't rock the board and will support the state institutions without question. Where is an SDLP stronghold for example? The Hume legacy in Derry city? Other than that and some middle class catholic areas in Belfast and Down, the SDLP don't dominate nationalist areas politically.

I find this board strange, seems to be more SDLP supporters on it than SF despite SF being the overwhelmingly majority nationalist party in the O6. Maybe it's just that we have a lot of the comfortable middle class teachers on here.

I imagine, There's plenty of SF supporters on this board Angelo. You don't have to be an SDLP supporter to disagree with many of the views and approach you have displayed on various threads

It would be odd for SF supporters to continually criticise SF and say nothing about the SDLP though.

Personally I would have a lot of criticisms of SF too but I am also aware that for me anyway they are the only nationalist party on this whole island. SDLP could be in power for the next 100 years and would make no attempt to forward reunification, they have always be too willing to take the subservient role to bigoted unionism as doing otherwise might damage their own standing.

The SDLP are a middle ground party much the same as Alliance for me with no real identity.

Honestly are you taking the piss now?

Maybe tell us a few anecdotes there as you are a very objective and non partisan poster when it comes to SF.....

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Serious question.

Would people actually consider the SDLP nationalist?

Yes.

Any SDLP politicians I know are nationalist and able . SF though the largest party have not been capitalising on the growing nationalist demographic, Alliance has capitalised on this demographic, as the post-troubles generation are attracted by the middle ground. SF biggest problem is avoiding controversy to try and capture more of the middle ground. Hardliners (excluding the tiny percentage who are dissident) are shoo-in and likely to remain loyal , but there is ground to be made closer to the middle . In addition , Hard left ideology brings with it a ceiling to its support, and though attractive to those suffering through poverty, the middle ground are nervous that at a time of uncertainty due to brexit, Covid and potential border poll, a hard left government could be disastrous. SF's only chance of increasing its vote is trying to capture the middle ground, that will involve softening its hard left reputation and showing genuine remorse for victims of the conflict . They are on the verge of power north and south but lack allies, and will have to build up relationships with parties closest to them, and get the young vote out particularly

SF have the support levels they need, they are not going to win any more ground than they already have. SDLP and Alliance are probably as well subsume each other, they have that kind of middle ground won't rock the board and will support the state institutions without question. Where is an SDLP stronghold for example? The Hume legacy in Derry city? Other than that and some middle class catholic areas in Belfast and Down, the SDLP don't dominate nationalist areas politically.

I find this board strange, seems to be more SDLP supporters on it than SF despite SF being the overwhelmingly majority nationalist party in the O6. Maybe it's just that we have a lot of the comfortable middle class teachers on here.

I imagine, There's plenty of SF supporters on this board Angelo. You don't have to be an SDLP supporter to disagree with many of the views and approach you have displayed on various threads

It would be odd for SF supporters to continually criticise SF and say nothing about the SDLP though.

Personally I would have a lot of criticisms of SF too but I am also aware that for me anyway they are the only nationalist party on this whole island. SDLP could be in power for the next 100 years and would make no attempt to forward reunification, they have always be too willing to take the subservient role to bigoted unionism as doing otherwise might damage their own standing.

The SDLP are a middle ground party much the same as Alliance for me with no real identity.

Honestly are you taking the piss now?

Maybe tell us a few anecdotes there as you are a very objective and non partisan poster when it comes to SF.....

WTF-SF are the only nationalist party on this island? Thats a new one , mad even for you

[dublin7]

The newer qualified teachers wouldn't be on the same wages that their older colleagues started on as they were thrown under the bus by them and the unions when public sector pay cuts were introduced after the economy crashed, but having said that teachers are still on wages above the economic/industrial average and would be comfortably middle class

[Angelo]

Serious question.

Would people actually consider the SDLP nationalist?

Yes.

Any SDLP politicians I know are nationalist and able . SF though the largest party have not been capitalising on the growing nationalist demographic, Alliance has capitalised on this demographic, as the post-troubles generation are attracted by the middle ground. SF biggest problem is avoiding controversy to try and capture more of the middle ground. Hardliners (excluding the tiny percentage who are dissident) are shoo-in and likely to remain loyal , but there is ground to be made closer to the middle . In addition , Hard left ideology brings with it a ceiling to its support, and though attractive to those suffering through poverty, the middle ground are nervous that at a time of uncertainty due to brexit, Covid and potential border poll, a hard left government could be disastrous. SF's only chance of increasing its vote is trying to capture the middle ground, that will involve softening its hard left reputation and showing genuine remorse for victims of the conflict . They are on the verge of power north and south but lack allies, and will have to build up relationships with parties closest to them, and get the young vote out particularly

SF have the support levels they need, they are not going to win any more ground than they already have. SDLP and Alliance are probably as well subsume each other, they have that kind of middle ground won't rock the board and will support the state institutions without question. Where is an SDLP stronghold for example? The Hume legacy in Derry city? Other than that and some middle class catholic areas in Belfast and Down, the SDLP don't dominate nationalist areas politically.

I find this board strange, seems to be more SDLP supporters on it than SF despite SF being the overwhelmingly majority nationalist party in the O6. Maybe it's just that we have a lot of the comfortable middle class teachers on here.

I imagine, There's plenty of SF supporters on this board Angelo. You don't have to be an SDLP supporter to disagree with many of the views and approach you have displayed on various threads

It would be odd for SF supporters to continually criticise SF and say nothing about the SDLP though.

Personally I would have a lot of criticisms of SF too but I am also aware that for me anyway they are the only nationalist party on this whole island. SDLP could be in power for the next 100 years and would make no attempt to forward reunification, they have always be too willing to take the subservient role to bigoted unionism as doing otherwise might damage their own standing.

The SDLP are a middle ground party much the same as Alliance for me with no real identity.

Honestly are you taking the piss now?

Maybe tell us a few anecdotes there as you are a very objective and non partisan poster when it comes to SF.....

WTF-SF are the only nationalist party on this island? Thats a new one , mad even for you

Without question.

You have staunch far right unionist parties - DUP, UUP, TUV.

Middle ground parties who just go with the flow - Alliance, SDLP Greens, Social Democrats

Left parties - PBP

Partionist parties who are reticent to any talks of reunification - FF, FG, Labour.

Nationalist parties - SF and possibly you could include Aontu but they are a fringe organisation

SF are the only party on this island serious about nationalism but you are so entrenched in an agenda to slur them at every opportunity with anecdotes and hearsay, the problem is that people can see your agenda as clear as day so the more you say the more emboldened people get. Did you ever think of teaming up with Ruth Dudley Edwards?

[Rossfan]

At what pay does one become "middle class"?

[general_lee]

Maybe it's just me but I don't like the term nationalist and consider myself Republican.

[Angelo]

Teachers would tend to me more SF voters would they not?
This idea that all SF voters are salt of the earth working classes is fanciful. Lots of middle classes vote for SF. Look at their vote in the South. That's not all people earning the average industrial wage.

Willful ignorance there.

You look at where SF get their seats in Dublin, all predominantly from constituencies with working class strongholds. Dublin is probably the only constituency in the south where you can polarise the working class from the middle class/upper class. All the other areas would have significant diversity in their constituencies as they pretty much take full cities or counties in. I'm not sure on the geography of Cork but I worked in Dublin for a number of years so know the environment there. They don't have representation in

Mary Lou runs in Dublin Central which is inner city and hugely working class.
O'Broin and Ward run in Dublin Mid West, again another hugely working class constituency.
Crowe in Dublin South West - another almost universally working class constituency.
Ellis in Dublin North West - again hugely working class constituency.
Donnelly is Dublin West which is a bit of mixed back - has Blanchardstown and Castleknock but I'd say definitely more working class than middle class..
O'Reilly - Fingal again hugely working class.
O'Snodaigh - Dublin South Central - once again hugely working class
Mitchell - Dublin North Bay - probably a more middle class consituency again but it's a 5 seater constituency.
Andrews - Middle class/upper class constituency


The well healed and comfortable middle class will tend not to vote for SF as they run on a ticket of change.

[Angelo]

At what pay does one become "middle class"?

It's all relative.

The younger generation will have a lot less chance of being middle class in the south due to the policies of FFG. For many of them owning a house is a pipe dream with a crazy rental market being consumed by vulture funds and making it impossible for them save a deposit as they move to Dublin for work opportunities in MNCs who report record profits and don't pay their corporation tax.

This is why the u40 generation are voting for SF in their droves.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Serious question.

Would people actually consider the SDLP nationalist?

Yes.

Any SDLP politicians I know are nationalist and able . SF though the largest party have not been capitalising on the growing nationalist demographic, Alliance has capitalised on this demographic, as the post-troubles generation are attracted by the middle ground. SF biggest problem is avoiding controversy to try and capture more of the middle ground. Hardliners (excluding the tiny percentage who are dissident) are shoo-in and likely to remain loyal , but there is ground to be made closer to the middle . In addition , Hard left ideology brings with it a ceiling to its support, and though attractive to those suffering through poverty, the middle ground are nervous that at a time of uncertainty due to brexit, Covid and potential border poll, a hard left government could be disastrous. SF's only chance of increasing its vote is trying to capture the middle ground, that will involve softening its hard left reputation and showing genuine remorse for victims of the conflict . They are on the verge of power north and south but lack allies, and will have to build up relationships with parties closest to them, and get the young vote out particularly

SF have the support levels they need, they are not going to win any more ground than they already have. SDLP and Alliance are probably as well subsume each other, they have that kind of middle ground won't rock the board and will support the state institutions without question. Where is an SDLP stronghold for example? The Hume legacy in Derry city? Other than that and some middle class catholic areas in Belfast and Down, the SDLP don't dominate nationalist areas politically.

I find this board strange, seems to be more SDLP supporters on it than SF despite SF being the overwhelmingly majority nationalist party in the O6. Maybe it's just that we have a lot of the comfortable middle class teachers on here.

I imagine, There's plenty of SF supporters on this board Angelo. You don't have to be an SDLP supporter to disagree with many of the views and approach you have displayed on various threads

It would be odd for SF supporters to continually criticise SF and say nothing about the SDLP though.

Personally I would have a lot of criticisms of SF too but I am also aware that for me anyway they are the only nationalist party on this whole island. SDLP could be in power for the next 100 years and would make no attempt to forward reunification, they have always be too willing to take the subservient role to bigoted unionism as doing otherwise might damage their own standing.

The SDLP are a middle ground party much the same as Alliance for me with no real identity.

Honestly are you taking the piss now?

Maybe tell us a few anecdotes there as you are a very objective and non partisan poster when it comes to SF.....

WTF-SF are the only nationalist party on this island? Thats a new one , mad even for you

Without question.

You have staunch far right unionist parties - DUP, UUP, TUV.

Middle ground parties who just go with the flow - Alliance, SDLP Greens, Social Democrats

Left parties - PBP

Partionist parties who are reticent to any talks of reunification - FF, FG, Labour.

Nationalist parties - SF and possibly you could include Aontu but they are a fringe organisation

SF are the only party on this island serious about nationalism but you are so entrenched in an agenda to slur them at every opportunity with anecdotes and hearsay, the problem is that people can see your agenda as clear as day so the more you say the more emboldened people get. Did you ever think of teaming up with Ruth Dudley Edwards?

Well lets just agree that you aren't going to get a first class honours anytime soon in politics.

[Angelo]

Serious question.

Would people actually consider the SDLP nationalist?

Yes.

Any SDLP politicians I know are nationalist and able . SF though the largest party have not been capitalising on the growing nationalist demographic, Alliance has capitalised on this demographic, as the post-troubles generation are attracted by the middle ground. SF biggest problem is avoiding controversy to try and capture more of the middle ground. Hardliners (excluding the tiny percentage who are dissident) are shoo-in and likely to remain loyal , but there is ground to be made closer to the middle . In addition , Hard left ideology brings with it a ceiling to its support, and though attractive to those suffering through poverty, the middle ground are nervous that at a time of uncertainty due to brexit, Covid and potential border poll, a hard left government could be disastrous. SF's only chance of increasing its vote is trying to capture the middle ground, that will involve softening its hard left reputation and showing genuine remorse for victims of the conflict . They are on the verge of power north and south but lack allies, and will have to build up relationships with parties closest to them, and get the young vote out particularly

SF have the support levels they need, they are not going to win any more ground than they already have. SDLP and Alliance are probably as well subsume each other, they have that kind of middle ground won't rock the board and will support the state institutions without question. Where is an SDLP stronghold for example? The Hume legacy in Derry city? Other than that and some middle class catholic areas in Belfast and Down, the SDLP don't dominate nationalist areas politically.

I find this board strange, seems to be more SDLP supporters on it than SF despite SF being the overwhelmingly majority nationalist party in the O6. Maybe it's just that we have a lot of the comfortable middle class teachers on here.

I imagine, There's plenty of SF supporters on this board Angelo. You don't have to be an SDLP supporter to disagree with many of the views and approach you have displayed on various threads

It would be odd for SF supporters to continually criticise SF and say nothing about the SDLP though.

Personally I would have a lot of criticisms of SF too but I am also aware that for me anyway they are the only nationalist party on this whole island. SDLP could be in power for the next 100 years and would make no attempt to forward reunification, they have always be too willing to take the subservient role to bigoted unionism as doing otherwise might damage their own standing.

The SDLP are a middle ground party much the same as Alliance for me with no real identity.

Honestly are you taking the piss now?

Maybe tell us a few anecdotes there as you are a very objective and non partisan poster when it comes to SF.....

WTF-SF are the only nationalist party on this island? Thats a new one , mad even for you

Without question.

You have staunch far right unionist parties - DUP, UUP, TUV.

Middle ground parties who just go with the flow - Alliance, SDLP Greens, Social Democrats

Left parties - PBP

Partionist parties who are reticent to any talks of reunification - FF, FG, Labour.

Nationalist parties - SF and possibly you could include Aontu but they are a fringe organisation

SF are the only party on this island serious about nationalism but you are so entrenched in an agenda to slur them at every opportunity with anecdotes and hearsay, the problem is that people can see your agenda as clear as day so the more you say the more emboldened people get. Did you ever think of teaming up with Ruth Dudley Edwards?

Well lets just agree that you aren't going to get a first class honours anytime soon in politics.

The only person who'll agree with you is Ruth Dudley Edwards or Gregory Campbell.

[johnnycool]

Teachers would tend to me more SF voters would they not?
This idea that all SF voters are salt of the earth working classes is fanciful. Lots of middle classes vote for SF. Look at their vote in the South. That's not all people earning the average industrial wage.

Willful ignorance there.

You look at where SF get their seats in Dublin, all predominantly from constituencies with working class strongholds. Dublin is probably the only constituency in the south where you can polarise the working class from the middle class/upper class. All the other areas would have significant diversity in their constituencies as they pretty much take full cities or counties in. I'm not sure on the geography of Cork but I worked in Dublin for a number of years so know the environment there. They don't have representation in

Mary Lou runs in Dublin Central which is inner city and hugely working class.
O'Broin and Ward run in Dublin Mid West, again another hugely working class constituency.
Crowe in Dublin South West - another almost universally working class constituency.
Ellis in Dublin North West - again hugely working class constituency.
Donnelly is Dublin West which is a bit of mixed back - has Blanchardstown and Castleknock but I'd say definitely more working class than middle class..
O'Reilly - Fingal again hugely working class.
O'Snodaigh - Dublin South Central - once again hugely working class
Mitchell - Dublin North Bay - probably a more middle class consituency again but it's a 5 seater constituency.
Andrews - Middle class/upper class constituency


The well healed and comfortable middle class will tend not to vote for SF as they run on a ticket of change.

The well healed and comfortable tend not to vote socialist, not just in Ireland but the world over.

Sinn Fein in the south need to appeal to lower middle classes to get to that magic figure of 80, but that's a big leap from the 37 they have. Fielding a few more candidates in some constituencies may have helped but even the Shinners were taken aback by their percentage of the vote.

Coalition with the Shinners is still toxic for the others in the Dail..

[Angelo]

Teachers would tend to me more SF voters would they not?
This idea that all SF voters are salt of the earth working classes is fanciful. Lots of middle classes vote for SF. Look at their vote in the South. That's not all people earning the average industrial wage.

Willful ignorance there.

You look at where SF get their seats in Dublin, all predominantly from constituencies with working class strongholds. Dublin is probably the only constituency in the south where you can polarise the working class from the middle class/upper class. All the other areas would have significant diversity in their constituencies as they pretty much take full cities or counties in. I'm not sure on the geography of Cork but I worked in Dublin for a number of years so know the environment there. They don't have representation in

Mary Lou runs in Dublin Central which is inner city and hugely working class.
O'Broin and Ward run in Dublin Mid West, again another hugely working class constituency.
Crowe in Dublin South West - another almost universally working class constituency.
Ellis in Dublin North West - again hugely working class constituency.
Donnelly is Dublin West which is a bit of mixed back - has Blanchardstown and Castleknock but I'd say definitely more working class than middle class..
O'Reilly - Fingal again hugely working class.
O'Snodaigh - Dublin South Central - once again hugely working class
Mitchell - Dublin North Bay - probably a more middle class consituency again but it's a 5 seater constituency.
Andrews - Middle class/upper class constituency


The well healed and comfortable middle class will tend not to vote for SF as they run on a ticket of change.

The well healed and comfortable tend not to vote socialist, not just in Ireland but the world over.

Sinn Fein in the south need to appeal to lower middle classes to get to that magic figure of 80, but that's a big leap from the 37 they have. Fielding a few more candidates in some constituencies may have helped but even the Shinners were taken aback by their percentage of the vote.

Coalition with the Shinners is still toxic for the others in the Dail..

They do appeal to lower middle class voters which is why their vote has grown and continues to grown over the recent years. I don't think any party will be hitting 80 seats down south again.

They will max out somwhere along the 50s. It's a 3 party state, if reuinification happens FF will end up being subsumed by either SF or FG in the long run.

By toxic to the others, you mean FF/FG. They are two sides to the one coin who have had total control over the state for a decade, they have severe worries their gravy train will have ended in SF get in power.

You often see it in the business world where two companies dominate a market and have huge rivalry but then a third competitor comes along and grows significantly and then poses a threat, it's not unusual for the two sworn enemies to come together and keep the new entrant out so they can keep their strangehold on power.

[marty34]

Teachers would tend to me more SF voters would they not?
This idea that all SF voters are salt of the earth working classes is fanciful. Lots of middle classes vote for SF. Look at their vote in the South. That's not all people earning the average industrial wage.

Willful ignorance there.

You look at where SF get their seats in Dublin, all predominantly from constituencies with working class strongholds. Dublin is probably the only constituency in the south where you can polarise the working class from the middle class/upper class. All the other areas would have significant diversity in their constituencies as they pretty much take full cities or counties in. I'm not sure on the geography of Cork but I worked in Dublin for a number of years so know the environment there. They don't have representation in

Mary Lou runs in Dublin Central which is inner city and hugely working class.
O'Broin and Ward run in Dublin Mid West, again another hugely working class constituency.
Crowe in Dublin South West - another almost universally working class constituency.
Ellis in Dublin North West - again hugely working class constituency.
Donnelly is Dublin West which is a bit of mixed back - has Blanchardstown and Castleknock but I'd say definitely more working class than middle class..
O'Reilly - Fingal again hugely working class.
O'Snodaigh - Dublin South Central - once again hugely working class
Mitchell - Dublin North Bay - probably a more middle class consituency again but it's a 5 seater constituency.
Andrews - Middle class/upper class constituency


The well healed and comfortable middle class will tend not to vote for SF as they run on a ticket of change.

The well healed and comfortable tend not to vote socialist, not just in Ireland but the world over.

Sinn Fein in the south need to appeal to lower middle classes to get to that magic figure of 80, but that's a big leap from the 37 they have. Fielding a few more candidates in some constituencies may have helped but even the Shinners were taken aback by their percentage of the vote.

Coalition with the Shinners is still toxic for the others in the Dail..

I think that's changing, especially as time goes on.

Was their vote a protest vote, and if so, by how much?

They are very strong in Dublin and making inroads in all areas.  I'd say they'll be building up their council representation over the next 36 months and built from there.

For however good, their vote was last year, it must be remembered they were wiped severely at the local elections previous to that.  So much so that, certain candidates (iirc) didn't get elected in the locals but shortly after got elected on fist counts in the Dáil elections. 

Crazy stuff but shows the total inepitude of Fine Fáil.

Fine Fáil are not interested in re-uniting Ireland.  They've had long enough to do something.

In north, SDLP have lost their identity - sitting in London on the green benches and Eastwood doesn't convince me.  They're in with both FF and FG at election time and have lost their way.

The next 10 years will be interesting.