Experience is a hard master.........
Men killed as stolen car crashes
Two men have died after the stolen car in which they were travelling crashed in south Belfast early on Sunday.
The car was in collision with another vehicle on the Lisburn Road near the King's Hall at about 0430 BST.
Police said the driver of the other car was taken to hospital. His injuries are not thought to be life-threatening.
The victims' names have not been released. The road was closed for several hours after the crash but has now been reopened.
SDLP Councillor Bernie Kelly said it demonstrated how car crime could lead to tragedy.
"Belfast City Council has a community safety partnership. We are involved with the police and all the key partners to try and get rid of this type of behaviour," she said.
"I would appeal to the local community to work with us on that. I would appeal to young men, it usually is young men, to desist in this kind of dangerous behaviour that leads to a lot of heartache."
Police have appealed for information.
QuotePolice said the driver of the other car was taken to hospital. His injuries are not thought to be life-threatening.
Thank God.
Minder that is a truly horrendous title to a thread. Change that or if you don't - moderator can you?
People do many things they shouldn't and granted these people took other peoples lives in danger but slap it up them because they died? Shame on you.
Yes, lets cry for them ::)
Did I say that?
People died. So what do we do say slap it up them?
Quote from: imtommygunn on April 13, 2008, 09:30:21 PM
Did I say that?
People died. So what do we do say slap it up them?
Well it wouldn't be my choice of words but I wouldnt be worried about them either.
Bit harsh of a title agreed but I don't have any sympathy for scumbags that get killed joyriding. Glad that they took no innocents with them
So, joyriders die in a stolen car. Did the deserve it? Probably. Do we need to gloat over that fact? No. It is a harsh title for a thread alright.
why should i remove it? f**k them,if the police were chasing them and you were on the road do you think they would swerve to avoid you? Would they f**k. Live by the sword and die by the sword,is that what they say? Im sure we will have some social/community worker in the next few days telling us people that do this are "alienated" and need more "community funding"
The title is harsh but I would have little sympathy for them either. They were scumbags and they paid the ultimate price for their thieving but now they are dead and we shouldnt gloat.
I dont think joy riders deserve to die, they deserve a good kicking and a stretch in jail, but to die? they are not child molesters ffs.
Well if you don't see why you should remove it then that says it all really.
they were somebodys sons, thats that, No symphathy for them at all.
how many innocent peopel have these "Joy riders" killed as a result of their actions?
Tommy just because someone does not share your opinion does not make it any less valid. . . . . .
Re Stew.
Before I start, I am in no way defending paedophilia in any way, shape or form.
But paedophilia is, whether we like it not, an absolutely horrible illness, and not a choice.
Stealing a car is a choice, and driving it like a lunatic is a choice. They've no sympathy from me.
no-one i am sure is bouncing around jumping for joy at the fact that lives have been lost.
on the other side of the coin though, these guys go out risking multitudes of innocents' lives every night of the week, so it's long overdue
Quote from: stew on April 13, 2008, 09:42:55 PM
The title is harsh but I would have little sympathy for them either. They were scumbags and they paid the ultimate price for their thieving but now they are dead and we shouldnt gloat.
I dont think joy riders deserve to die, they deserve a good kicking and a stretch in jail, but to die? they are not child molesters ffs.
No, but they destory lives and families too.
Wobbler, you could argue that joyriding or someone needing that "thrill" is an illness too.
You're probably right POG. But there a thousand ways to get a speed fix on this world without ruining people's lives.
Quote from: Minder on April 13, 2008, 09:47:51 PM
Tommy just because someone does not share your opinion does not make it any less valid. . . . . .
I dont think its your opinion per se, which agitates Tommy, more the title thread. 'Joyriders Die in stolen car' might have been more apt perhaps.
I'm not defending these neanderthals in any way shape or form, I just cant see where we should have a title thread as Judgement on them.
Maybe you have been affected by boys like this previously and it wrankles with you, and I could see where you are coming from. I still think that the title is a bit OTT
I agree that joyriders don't deserve a lot of sympathy but those who died all have mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters whose lives have probably just been irreparably damaged. I just think the title of thread is a little disrespectful of human life.
Precisely green man. Unless someone goes out to intentionally end someone's life and the only way this can be stopped is to kill them then I do not believe anyone deserves to die.
Did these people do wrong in stealing a car? yes
Did they go out to intentionally kill someone? unlikely
The ideal outcome would have been something like a crash into a lamp post where all the perpretrators got injury enough to teach them a lesson and also get caught and do their time.
Like green man says maybe you have been hit by something like this before but your thread title is about as heartless as it gets and I find it pretty offensive. Hard to find sympathy for them no doubt but the title, well heartless just about sums it up.
N.B. I have never, and I mean never, found anything on this board or any other discussion board offensive before. I have seen posts from the odd person who I've thought "what an a**hole" about but it's never bothered me enough to comment on it.
I have not been directly affected by them before but i have an 18 month old daughter and it will not be long until she is out playing and i know for a fact if they were being pursued bu the police everyone is fair game. My brother and i were driving up the Falls Rd a few years ago and joyriders came directly at us on the wrong side of the road if we hadnt of swerved we were fucked. Its not just the matter of illegally taking someones car, its the by products of it, the knife they stick to someones throat to get the car, its the driving at 80 mph with no regard for anyone in their way, its the attitude of anyone being fairgame to escape capture. And do people really think these scumbags are rehabilitated after serving a bit of bird, when they are released on Christmas leave from Hydebank every year they go apeshit every year, joyriding, burglaries etc. If people find the thread title so offensive i will change it but i wont change my opinion of them or the instant feeling i had when i read the story.
MInder, what part does the CRJ play in all this? Or do they not permit a good caving to the aggressor?
Quote from: the green man on April 13, 2008, 10:38:02 PM
MInder, what part does the CRJ play in all this? Or do they not permit a good caving to the aggressor?
Well Greenman where i am they dont play any part, unless of course they are looking for a bit of funding, they become a bit more visible then.
An innocent man taken to hospital, that is the real tragedy here.
Quote from: corn02 on April 13, 2008, 10:57:22 PM
An innocent man taken to hospital, that is the real tragedy here.
Correct corn. I hope he is ok. What do you all think would have been a fair sentence here if these boyos had lived?
I would say 5 years would be about right.
A fair sentence without killing the innocent passenger? Yeah five years sounds about right, they porbably only would have got one though.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 13, 2008, 09:48:24 PM
Re Stew.
Before I start, I am in no way defending paedophilia in any way, shape or form.
But paedophilia is, whether we like it not, an absolutely horrible illness, and not a choice.
Being so twisted to simply desire doing the stuff they do is an illness. Not having enough restraint not to act on the impulses when they know how wrong it is- that's not an illness.
Quote from: corn02 on April 13, 2008, 11:27:00 PM
A fair sentence without killing the innocent passenger? Yeah five years sounds about right, they porbably only would have got one though.
Probably get about a year sentence in Hydebank with some probation, but with automatic remission only serve 6 months.
It would be interesting to get a full profile on the two deceased.
What is their family life like?
What was their education?
What was their profession?
What were their parents socio-economic stading?
Did they have criminal records?
What made them think they can steal someone elses property?
Any probation officers on this board?
Quote from: Rav67 on April 13, 2008, 11:27:23 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 13, 2008, 09:48:24 PM
Re Stew.
Before I start, I am in no way defending paedophilia in any way, shape or form.
But paedophilia is, whether we like it not, an absolutely horrible illness, and not a choice.
Being so twisted to simply desire doing the stuff they do is an illness. Not having enough restraint not to act on the impulses when they know how wrong it is- that's not an illness.
Illness my arse, they have a choice, they can get chemically castrated if they feel the urge to molest children. They are a shower of selfish low lifes that get by by preying on the weak.
Horrible thread title - you should have more wit Minder. Fair play to tommygunn, Mac Eoghain and the greenman for their measured comments. Whilst it is impossible to have any sympathy for the two individuals, it is impossible not to have sympathy for their families who have lost sons, brothers and in one case a father, at the age of 19.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
It would be interesting to get a full profile on the two deceased.
Won't be a full profile, but here is what I know.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
What is their family life like?
Both from quite large families (four and five children in each) and their parents are still together, although there are some problems in the background of at least one of the boys. I will elaborate via PM if required.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
What was their education?
Both left secondary school at 16 with no GCSEs.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
What was their profession?
One into mechanics, the other unemployed.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
What were their parents socio-economic stading?
Both would have been comfortable. Unremarkable, working class I suppose would be a reasonable description.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
Did they have criminal records?
None that I am aware of.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
What made them think they can steal someone elses property?
The million dollar question. A multitude of reasons that would require a thread of its own.
There, but for the grace of God, go all of us.
Minder, are you a parent?
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 14, 2008, 09:49:05 AM
Horrible thread title - you should have more wit Minder. Fair play to tommygunn, Mac Eoghain and the greenman for their measured comments. Whilst it is impossible to have any sympathy for the two individuals, it is impossible not to have sympathy for their families who have lost sons, brothers and in one case a father, at the age of 19.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
It would be interesting to get a full profile on the two deceased.
Won't be a full profile, but here is what I know.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
What is their family life like?
Both from quite large families (four and five children in each) and their parents are still together, although there are some problems in the background of at least one of the boys. I will elaborate via PM if required.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
What was their education?
Both left secondary school at 16 with no GCSEs.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
What was their profession?
One into mechanics, the other unemployed.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
What were their parents socio-economic stading?
Both would have been comfortable. Unremarkable, working class I suppose would be a reasonable description.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
Did they have criminal records?
None that I am aware of.
Quote from: Orior on April 14, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
What made them think they can steal someone elses property?
The million dollar question. A multitude of reasons that would require a thread of its own.
There, but for the grace of God, go all of us.
Minder, are you a parent?
??? ??? ???
GDA
You have no idea what lies in store for you or your family. You have no idea how your children or other family members will turn out.
Those here who have taken the moral high ground may not always be in a position to judge.
That is my point.
Hi All,
I just did a bit of editing on the thread title to tone it down a notch.
Cheers
Saffron Sam2......Yes i am a parent.
One things for sure..... the C*NTS won't do it again!!!!
AND i make no apologies for saying it....
rather them than the poor man or woman they could have hit.
no sympathy for them.
I wouldn't wish death on anybody, but this thread has been hijacked by bleeding hearts and turned into a debate about the morality of the title!! FFS.
I wonder what the title would have been if these two "death" drivers (never agreed with the term - joy rider) hadn't killed themselves, but had killed two innocent bystanders?
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on April 14, 2008, 10:44:17 AM
I wouldn't wish death on anybody, but this thread has been hijacked by bleeding hearts and turned into a debate about the morality of the title!! FFS.
I wonder what the title would have been if these two "death" drivers (never agreed with the term - joy rider) hadn't killed themselves, but had killed two innocent bystanders?
Not sure if I am one of the bleeding hearts or not, but I think the majority of people on the thread are saying the same thing.
i.e. The two boys deserve no sympathy.
However, there is no need to gloat in their deaths; certainly no-one who has contributed to this thread knows what the future may hold for themselves or their families.
No sympathy for them.. They won't steal anymore cars now... I do have a little sympathy for the distraught families they have selfishly left behind to mourn in shame of them. :(
It is great to see all the self righteous angels on here! Who here has the right to deem themselves judge and jury over other peoples' lives. The lads who stole the car were idiots and had no regard for life. That is accepted. However, they are dead and that cannot be changed. You do not to have sympathy top at least show a bit of decorum. And for what it is worth my wife has been hit by joy riders so I know the destruction they cause. I myself was hit in a car accident at the weekend albeit not by joyriders. The man who hit me showed the same disregard for my life as any joyrider would. He decided that he could pull out from a lane at full pelt into the side of my car. He didn't stop at the junction like he should have and as a result I have a car with €3000 worth of damage at least and a fecking lot of pain.
I have seen the lives of joyriders at first hand. Most of them live beyond the levels of poverty that anyone here can imagine. Yes, they have choices that they can make in life, the same way a drunk driver has choices, the same way a business man in his BMW has choices when he cuts you up and nearly causes a crash, the same way the man who drove his car into the side of mine on Saturday evening had a choice. No-one deserves to die and no matter what you say there are many posters here who have a warped sense of humanity if they feel that these lads got their just deserts.
Shame on you is what I say!
BC here..here!
maybe another point that should be considered is that maybe these joyriders want to die anyway in the first place!? ok, they are tanked up on either alcohol, drugs, mix of both and expect to have a good ol' time then by thieving cars and driving like maniacs?! asking for trouble there like.
a few lads nicked my dads car a while back, and just missed a couple walking with pram, car mounted the path and was going straight for them. now i dont want people losing lives but i know who should be losing lives in these cases. of course these ones were drugged up to the eyeballs and were let off scot-free like most of them!
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 14, 2008, 12:36:41 PM
It is great to see all the self righteous angels on here! Who here has the right to deem themselves judge and jury over other peoples' lives. The lads who stole the car were idiots and had no regard for life. That is accepted. However, they are dead and that cannot be changed. You do not to have sympathy top at least show a bit of decorum. And for what it is worth my wife has been hit by joy riders so I know the destruction they cause. I myself was hit in a car accident at the weekend albeit not by joyriders. The man who hit me showed the same disregard for my life as any joyrider would. He decided that he could pull out from a lane at full pelt into the side of my car. He didn't stop at the junction like he should have and as a result I have a car with €3000 worth of damage at least and a fecking lot of pain.
I have seen the lives of joyriders at first hand. Most of them live beyond the levels of poverty that anyone here can imagine. Yes, they have choices that they can make in life, the same way a drunk driver has choices, the same way a business man in his BMW has choices when he cuts you up and nearly causes a crash, the same way the man who drove his car into the side of mine on Saturday evening had a choice. No-one deserves to die and no matter what you say there are many posters here who have a warped sense of humanity if they feel that these lads got their just deserts.
Shame on you is what I say!
It's strange that you criticise us for judging yet go on to judge them yourself.
I can't believe that you'd try and equate someone that makes a split second judgement or error with a joyrider!
They live in poverty do they? Well if I sat around on the dole I'd live in poverty too. Some people are obviously dealt a rough card in life however that's not an excuse for doing what these boys done. If there wasn't such a soft approach to them i.e. the "God love them" attitude then there wouldn't be half the problems.
I wonder if the news story had been that two innocents were killed would you come on here and with that view, I doubt it.
Quotei.e. the "God love them" attitude
Who has displayed this attitude?
There may be a few less extreme things you can feel in between God love them and slap it up them do you not think? If you think there's nothing in between then you think in a pretty black and white manner - but I have noticed this before.
I was the first one to comment on the title of the thread. Slap it up them was extreme. It is hard to feel sympathy no doubt but I find it a bit inhumane to think "slap it up them" of almost anyone who's just been killed.
BC had displayed that attitude.
Quote
There may be a few less extreme things you can feel in between God love them and slap it up them do you not think? If you think there's nothing in between then you think in a pretty black and white manner - but I have noticed this before.
I wouldn't gloat at someone's death but I do think "good enough for them" and maybe that's wrong but I can't help that and I'd rather it be them than the innocent man in the other car.
What about the taxi driver that they hit that was out trying to do a days work, something a joyrider wouldnt know a thing about. He will be out of work and will have no means of income but sure there are no "socio economic" circumstances keeping him back so he will be grand........
I was actually on a few minutes after Minder first posted the thread with that title. I was actually in the process of writing how I thought it was a bit over the top etc. and how no one deserved to die no matter what they had done.
This is when I recalled a few months back the whole debate about Paul Quinn - From what I had heard this country is a better place without the likes of this individual and for "probably" these two young guys.
I would rather have seen these guys caught and completely rehabilitated. Chances of that happening was slim. The likes of Paul Quinn had enough chances. Maybe these guys didnt get their chance to put their lives straight - for the one with a child should have been looking at the bigger picture instead of seeking his thrill.
Fair points Muzz but how much carnage would there need to happen before these fellas decided this kind of behaviour wasnt for them? From what i have heard these two fellas were at it fairly regularly.
I would definitely have more sympathy (if any) for first time offenders that ended up like this. If what you say is correct and they were no strangers to this type of behaviour they should have known better. As has been pointed out. Many of us have come across joyriders on the wrong side of the road or mounting footpaths etc. these guys would have come across these obstacles before. They were well aware of the dangers!!!
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 14, 2008, 07:45:38 PM
I wouldn't gloat at someone's death but I do think "good enough for them" and maybe that's wrong but I can't help that and I'd rather it be them than the innocent man in the other car.
Pints, does this point not go, in someway, towards justifying what has been said by some posters you claim to to be wrong on the thread?
I don't follow zap?
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 15, 2008, 01:28:34 PM
I don't follow zap?
That some things might be wrong but you just can't help that?
Quote from: Zapatista on April 15, 2008, 01:44:45 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 15, 2008, 01:28:34 PM
I don't follow zap?
That some things might be wrong but you just can't help that?
No, because my thoughts won't kill or ruin lives!
Ian Paisleys thoughts did.
Quote from: Zapatista on April 16, 2008, 07:50:13 AM
Ian Paisleys thoughts did.
Surely that was more his words and actions.
Unless the Pradestant people can mind-read (and kept it secret from us RC's). ;)
There is justice after all. A few months ago I beleive there was a gang of scumbags stealing motorbikes in Cork city. One day on a stolen bike the rider was killed and the pillion badly injured. Thank God no human beings were otherwise hurt. Seems since the death of the skanger the amount of bike theft has quickly declined in Cork. Justice served.