Angry Farrell rejects GPA professional slur
By Colm Keys
Friday February 29 2008
DESSIE Farrell has dismissed the latest document from the 'Of One Belief' group opposed to the inter-county player grants as "something you would see in an American presidential election".
An email from one of the lobby group members, which is currently taking a case to the Disputes Resolution Authority (DRA) over the impact on the grants proposal on the amateur status rule, claims that Farrell and the GPA privately harbour long-term aims to create professional Gaelic games.
Wexford club hurler Gerard O'Donoghue has circulated a page taken down off the GPA website in 2002 where, in a private members' questions and answers forum relating to the merits of expenses and pay- for-play, Farrell made some revealing comments.
"We need to crawl before we can walk and also in the current climate the expense rate is more acceptable in media circles as how we are perceived is very important at present," wrote Farrell at the time.
Battle
"Having said that, it should not prevent us from harbouring private opinions on this with long-term objectives. At the moment though, let's take it one battle at a time until the war is won," he adds.
The 'Of One Belief' group -- which expect to learn today when their DRA hearing will take place -- believe this is evidence of the GPA's true ideals.
Farrell admits he "probably" did say that at the time but stressed that the remarks were written in a much different climate than exists now
"At the time the £100 (€127) expenses for inter-county players was in the domain. Shortly afterwards it was Charlie McCreevy and tax breaks, then it morphed again into Government grants," recalled Farrell yesterday.
"The relationship was very different back then, it was one based on hostility and suspicion. Thankfully that's not the case now."
Farrell says the GAA have accepted their "bona fides" on preserving the amateur status.
"We're on the record countless times saying we are not about pay-for-play. In the grants document we have re-emphasised the need to uphold the integrity of the amateur status."
Meanwhile, GAA presidential candidate Sean Fogarty has challenged the GPA to produce a constitution and evidence of a proper membership structure before they can be formally approved by the association.
Fogarty has accused the GPA of using a "settled form of guerrilla warfare" against the GAA with the threat of strike.
Fogarty feels a strike may have been no harm last year. "A strike is a dangerous weapon until you go and use it. The players have a very short life span and I don't think players would stay out too long. It would also give us an indication of strength of the players' organisation which I'm not sure about."
Who is this Fogarty guy? I like the cut of his gib :)
As for Dessie, I'm on record as saying that my own belief is that the GPA *are* after pay for play, and will achieve it in an inch by inch fashion. Nothing in his 'private' comments surprise me.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 29, 2008, 12:17:57 PM
Who is this Fogarty guy? I like the cut of his gib :)
Former Munster council chairman and GAA President candidate.
People are usually angry when they are found out. When the split comes in the GPA (as it will) I think there will be some interesting revellations.
These are the facts in relation to professional pay for play direct from the GAA:
When Dessie was appointed to the role, he was personally in favour of pay for play. He even said so in his book I believe.
However, susbsequently as a body the members of the GPA decided NOT to go after pay for play. Dessie as leader of the GPA is therefore not pursuing pay for play. And he reiterates this ad nauseum.
If, in the future, the members of the GPA decide that they would like to go after direct pay for play - then the leader will do what the members have asked and pursue such a course. But there is no sign at present that a majority of inter county players would support such action.
QuoteHowever, susbsequently as a body the members of the GPA decided NOT to go after pay for play. Dessie as leader of the GPA is therefore not pursuing pay for play. And he reiterates this ad nauseum.
Dessie can repeat he and the GPA are not for pay for play as much as he wants, but very few members of the GAA believe him.
It's incredible to say that he is not purusing pay-for-play. He tried to organise a national strike to get through a grants scheme which many GAA members think amounts to pay for play, and which would be found as such under European law.
Yes, most GPA members don't want pay for play - but Dessie is one of the main influences trying to push them towards it. Don't believe any of his public utterances.
Quote from: Tatler Jack on February 29, 2008, 12:35:05 PM
People are usually angry when they are found out.
Spot on. Especially when it's only a small rump of malcontents.
Quote from: Hound on February 29, 2008, 12:48:21 PM
These are the facts in relation to professional pay for play direct from the GAA:
When Dessie was appointed to the role, he was personally in favour of pay for play. He even said so in his book I believe.
However, susbsequently as a body the members of the GPA decided NOT to go after pay for play. Dessie as leader of the GPA is therefore not pursuing pay for play. And he reiterates this ad nauseum.
If, in the future, the members of the GPA decide that they would like to go after direct pay for play - then the leader will do what the members have asked and pursue such a course. But there is no sign at present that a majority of inter county players would support such action.
that should read selfappointed
The mask has finally slipped ! ;D ;D
And leopards don't change their spots ! ;D ;D
QuoteDESSIE Farrell
Who is he anyway?
Is it? explain them to me
Quote from: Uladh on March 01, 2008, 10:58:18 AM
Is it? explain them to me
If, by this stage, you are not fully aware of Dessie Farrells intentions then you must have been living on a different planet. These grants are the first step on the road to professionalism.
QuoteIf this is the direction the Association wants to take, then it should be decided properly by the whole Association and not the dictatorship that appears to be showing itself in Croke Park.
But that's exactly how it will be decided, whatever Dessie's or anyone else's personal opinions are on professionalism, it can only come to pass if the majority of the GAA vote for it. The GPA are here to stay and the GAA are right to recognize them and engage with them, the GPA have a role to play in the modern GAA and lads need to accept that.
QuoteIf, by this stage, you are not fully aware of Dessie Farrells intentions then you must have been living on a different planet. These grants are the first step on the road to professionalism.
You forgot to say 'in my opinion', it isn't a fact.
Quote from: Double Cross on March 01, 2008, 11:05:17 AM
If, by this stage, you are not fully aware of Dessie Farrells intentions then you must have been living on a different planet. These grants are the first step on the road to professionalism.
How do you know this?
- opinion, guesses, dreams, bogeyman stories, etc don't count... facts and actual quotes only please.
This is going to be painful
I should say that the direction that the issue has now gone, in terms of going to congress for approval, is absolutely the correct way to do things. obviously this is how it should have gone originally and what brennan et al were at i'll never know.
Does anyone on this board believe that Dessie and Co want anything other than pay for play?
Quote from: Zulu on March 01, 2008, 11:13:00 AM
But that's exactly how it will be decided, whatever Dessie's or anyone else's personal opinions are on professionalism, it can only come to pass if the majority of the GAA vote for it. The GPA are here to stay and the GAA are right to recognize them and engage with them, the GPA have a role to play in the modern GAA and lads need to accept that.
And who elected the GPA, Zulu?
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2008, 11:17:08 AM
And who elected the GPA, Zulu?
Careful now hardy... are you abot to decree that any member of the GAA not "elected" to their post should be disregarded?
Quote from: Dessie Farrell
We need to crawl before we can walk and also in the current climate the expense rate is more acceptable in media circles as how we are perceived is very important at present.
Having said that, it should not prevent us from harbouring private opinions on this with long-term objectives. At the moment though, let's take it one battle at a time until the war is won.
Is it not clear to everybody that this direct quote not only negates the credibility of Dessie Farrell's every claim that he doesn't support pay for play, but actually verifies that those claims are an integral part of the strategy?
Quote from: Uladh on March 01, 2008, 11:20:36 AM
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2008, 11:17:08 AM
And who elected the GPA, Zulu?
Careful now hardy... are you abot to decree that any member of the GAA not "elected" to their post should be disregarded?
What do you mean? Zulu was proposing that the GPA should be recognised as the legitimate representative of the players. On what basis? What's to stop me forming an opposing ad hoc rump of malcontents representing, say, Junior B and C Players and demanding recognition as the legitimate representative organisation for of all GAA players? That's the direct equivalent of what the GPA has done as a self-appointred sub-grouping of one category of players.
Surely if the majority of GPA members regard winning the war as attaining full and comprehensive support and expenses for every IC footballer and hurler in the country, then it is a noble cause?
Obviously the objectives of the collective will override any contrary personal aspirations, if they exist.
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2008, 11:27:30 AM
What do you mean? Zulu was proposing that the GPA should be recognised as the legitimate representative of the players. On what basis? What's to stop me forming an opposing ad hoc rump of malcontents representing, say, Junior B and C Players and demanding recognition as the legitimate representative organisation for of all GAA players? That's the direct equivalent of what the GPA has done as a self-appointred sub-grouping of one category of players.
On the basis that the GPA is endorsed by the body of members that it specifically represents, unlike for example player welfare officer. There is nothing to stop you forming what you wish except the cruel realiy that you will not be able to sustain it out of lack of interest from your target membership and resources.
Quote from: Uladh on March 01, 2008, 11:32:58 AM
On the basis that the GPA is endorsed by the body of members that it specifically represents
How do you know? Have you seen audited ballot results? And even if was legitimately constituted as the representative body for inter-county players, on what basis has it been granted official status (without reference to the GAA membership at large) as the representative body for ALL players, including those whom it explicitly excludes from membership?
QuoteWhat do you mean? Zulu was proposing that the GPA should be recognised as the legitimate representative of the players. On what basis? What's to stop me forming an opposing ad hoc rump of malcontents representing, say, Junior B and C Players and demanding recognition as the legitimate representative organisation for of all GAA players? That's the direct equivalent of what the GPA has done as a self-appointred sub-grouping of one category of players.
Who elected the first trade unions Hardy? In fairness a group was formed to represent the collective views of players and the players (the majority anyway) accept that the GPA speak on their behalf. In any large group their will always be people who disagree with the majority view but I don't think it can be argued that the GPA don't represent the IC players. And as such the GAA do need to engage with them, some of ye are taking that one quote from Dessie and using it to beat the GPA with. On the one hand you take that quote as indisputable evidence of their true goals while dismissing Dessie's more recent pronouncements as lies.
I'm afraid Hardy that the membership numbers of the GPA are the best we can go on. Do you require audited ballot results for every representative body you come across or are you making a special case? My understanding is that the GPA are the officially recognised representatives of IC players, not players. This came as part of the negotiation that resulted in the GPA's central council seat and the abolition of the misguided post awarded to Jareth Burns. To reverse this you will need yet another motion to congress
QuoteWho elected the first trade unions Hardy? In fairness a group was formed to represent the collective views of players and the players (the majority anyway) accept that the GPA speak on their behalf. In any large group their will always be people who disagree with the majority view but I don't think it can be argued that the GPA don't represent the IC players. And as such the GAA do need to engage with them, some of ye are taking that one quote from Dessie and using it to beat the GPA with.
There's a few big differences between the GPA and ordinary trade unions. First of all, Dessie gave himself the CEO job - democracy, where are you? Secondly, he only represents some of an elite group of county players. Thirdly, the GPA as a trade union is not seeking better terms for players; it's seeking better terms for the GPA. A real trade union would be negotiating a reduction of the amount of training county players do; GPA leaders promote the idea that more is better. The GPA treats players as commercial entities much more than the GAA leaders do.
Also, as for this notion of all county players being happy with the GPA agenda, does it not strike you that this document was provided by a county player who was disgusted with its agenda?
Quote
On the one hand you take that quote as indisputable evidence of their true goals while dismissing Dessie's more recent pronouncements as lies.
Yes of course we do. The comments about the long-term objectives were made in private when he thought nobody was reading. His public pronouncements since then are specifically aimed for public consumption.
Quote from: Zulu on March 01, 2008, 11:41:18 AM
Who elected the first trade unions Hardy? In fairness a group was formed to represent the collective views of players and the players (the majority anyway) accept that the GPA speak on their behalf.
Again. Zulu - how do you know? What is the GPA's constitution? What is their voting procedure? What was the motion that they voted on , for instance , when they threatened to strike? How are the views of their membership canvassed? Who, in fact, are their members? Is there a list? And, as you say yourself, they represent only the inter-county players, if they represent anybody. It's my understanding that this loosely-constituted pressure group has now been officially recognised by the GAA as the representative body for ALL players . I'm not sure how that decision was made and whether it was constitutionally correct. If I'm wrong and the GPA is not the officially recognised representative of all players, then who represents non-inter-county players? And if the answer is that club players don't actually have any representation, how can the GAA executive justify granting recognition to one class of players and not another?
Further, the GPA specifically exists to better the lot of inter-county players. We'll leave aside the debate as to what specifically it is that they want. But, whatever it is, in a zero-sum game with finite resources, whatever they get will, by definition, be at the expense of the rest of the organisation. That includes the club players whom, if I understand correctly, they are now officially representing! Isn't that putting the fox in charge of the hen-run?
Quotesome of ye are taking that one quote from Dessie and using it to beat the GPA with. On the one hand you take that quote as indisputable evidence of their true goals while dismissing Dessie's more recent pronouncements as lies.
But how can they be anything else, when the quote itself explains that this is the strategy - keep your true aim under wraps and pretend that you're really after something else? There can be no other interpretation of his denials. Since he has tipped us off in advance that this is exactly how he's going to do it, what else are we to make of it when he actually does it?
this is hilarious... the anti GPA continigent can't seem to reconcile that Dessie Farrell, who is entitled to harbor full blown professionalism for the gaa if he so wants privately, must act in accordance with the wishes of the group he represents. ie IC players, or the majority of them anyway if GPA membership figures are accurate. Dessie Farrell IS NOT the GPA.
People who are anti-professionalism, are anti GPA and anti Dessie Farrell, but they're not the same thing.
If Dessie Farrell IS NOT the GPA, how did he, as one of an interviewing panel of 3, give himself the CEO job?
I have never heard of this in any other properly constituted organisation in the world.
There are of course other GPA members with their own opinions, but only one or two count.
Quote from: quidnunc on March 01, 2008, 12:29:06 PM
There are of course other GPA members with their own opinions, but only one or two count.
So your aggrieved that a select minority of opinions control the GPA and set its agenda, yet it has clearly been admitted by the anti-GPA contingent that Farrell harbours pay-for-play opinions yet allows the majority of members opinions to override this personal desire and represents this to the public?
Quote from: doire na raithe on March 01, 2008, 12:47:01 PM
Farrell harbours pay-for-play opinions yet allows the majority of members opinions to override this personal desire and represents this to the public?
No he doesn't. May I quote again?
"We need to crawl before we can walk and also in the current climate the expense rate is more acceptable in media circles as how we are perceived is very important at present.
Having said that, it should not prevent us from harbouring private opinions on this with long-term objectives. At the moment though, let's take it one battle at a time until the war is won".
Quote from: quidnunc on March 01, 2008, 11:51:23 AM
There's a few big differences between the GPA and ordinary trade unions. First of all, Dessie gave himself the CEO job -
How does one give one self a job apart from someone who owns a big company.????
Some of the stuff the anti GPA boys come out with is something else. ::)
"We need to crawl before we can walk and also in the current climate the expense rate is more acceptable in media circles as how we are perceived is very important at present.
Having said that, it should not prevent us from harbouring private opinions on this with long-term objectives. At the moment though, let's take it one battle at a time until the war is won".
Guys, its blatantly clear from these quotes that Farrell personally wants professionalism. That couldnt be any clearer. Its very worrying for the "leader" of the GPA to have these personal views.
I am not against the GPA in theory, its a good idea. But while Farrell who wants professionalism is at the helm, and is chipping away slowly, one "battle" at a time till this happens, I will happily declare myself "anti-gpa".
Quote from: his holiness nb on March 01, 2008, 01:17:28 PM
"We need to crawl before we can walk and also in the current climate the expense rate is more acceptable in media circles as how we are perceived is very important at present.
Having said that, it should not prevent us from harbouring private opinions on this with long-term objectives. At the moment though, let's take it one battle at a time until the war is won".
Guys, its blatantly clear from these quotes that Farrell personally wants professionalism. That couldnt be any clearer. Its very worrying for the "leader" of the GPA to have these personal views.
I am not against the GPA in theory, its a good idea. But while Farrell who wants professionalism is at the helm, and is chipping away slowly, one "battle" at a time till this happens, I will happily declare myself "anti-gpa".
whatever about the conclsions you may draw from these quotes, nothing is "blatantly clear" from them.
Your assumptions are only very worrying (a) if you are right
and (b) if you then consider one man's opinon amongst thousands to to be as "worrying" as the scare mongerers would hope it would be.
He is not just one man he is the voice of the GPA so please quit with the spin. Does he not have a mandate? If does and is misrepresenting that mandate then it is very worrying.
Zap - i didn't really think it would be possible to misrepresent the gist of this thread in one line, but congratulations.
Havn't even been reading the thread sorry :-[ :-[
Quote from: Uladh on March 01, 2008, 04:06:57 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on March 01, 2008, 01:17:28 PM
"We need to crawl before we can walk and also in the current climate the expense rate is more acceptable in media circles as how we are perceived is very important at present.
Having said that, it should not prevent us from harbouring private opinions on this with long-term objectives. At the moment though, let's take it one battle at a time until the war is won".
Guys, its blatantly clear from these quotes that Farrell personally wants professionalism. That couldnt be any clearer. Its very worrying for the "leader" of the GPA to have these personal views.
I am not against the GPA in theory, its a good idea. But while Farrell who wants professionalism is at the helm, and is chipping away slowly, one "battle" at a time till this happens, I will happily declare myself "anti-gpa".
whatever about the conclsions you may draw from these quotes, nothing is "blatantly clear" from them.
Your assumptions are only very worrying (a) if you are right and (b) if you then consider one man's opinon amongst thousands to to be as "worrying" as the scare mongerers would hope it would be.
uladh
can I ask what conclusions do you draw from the quotes?
After readind it through i'm not sorry.
Uladh wrote
"if you then consider one man's opinion amongst thousands to to be as "worrying" as the scare mongerers would hope it would be."
You talk as if DF has little influence and takes complete guidance from the members. This is false and the reverse is true. The members are not in the room when he is negotiating on there behalf. This is fair enough as it's his job to do that.
Edit Zero influence to little influence.
Quote from: Zulu on March 01, 2008, 11:13:00 AM
QuoteIf this is the direction the Association wants to take, then it should be decided properly by the whole Association and not the dictatorship that appears to be showing itself in Croke Park.
But that's exactly how it will be decided, whatever Dessie's or anyone else's personal opinions are on professionalism, it can only come to pass if the majority of the GAA vote for it. The GPA are here to stay and the GAA are right to recognize them and engage with them, the GPA have a role to play in the modern GAA and lads need to accept that.
QuoteIf, by this stage, you are not fully aware of Dessie Farrells intentions then you must have been living on a different planet. These grants are the first step on the road to professionalism.
You forgot to say 'in my opinion', it isn't a fact.
Will the majority of the GAA vote on this? Whatever u think of the rights or wrongs of grant aid it seems to me that the very least that should be done is for clubs to debate this and then mandate their county boards. Is that happening? Has anyone here got notification of a club meeting to debate these grants? I haven't. The central council motion to congress specifically states that they are backing the grant aid package in its final form, yet this final form is not yet available for anybody to read? How can clubs discuss a motion to congress when the fine details of what the motion proposes have not even been worked out and will not be realeased until the middle of this month? It has taken Croke Park/The sports Council/The GPA/ three and a half months to finalise the package yet clubs are expected to discuss the package within a two week time frame and return their verdict to county boards by the first week of April so their delegates can vote as their count members want them too at Congress.
This will be decided by congress (and congress has a shocking record of agreeing with the wider association on major issues) and by congress that means county chairman and by county chairman that means people who will do what the president says because they would rather not rock the boat than create controversy. You can call this what you want but this is not democracy. This is politics, nothing more and nothing less and is being done to save the face of a president who IMO has already proven one of the weakest in my memory.
QuoteWill the majority of the GAA vote on this? Whatever u think of the rights or wrongs of grant aid it seems to me that the very least that should be done is for clubs to debate this and then mandate their county boards. Is that happening? Has anyone here got notification of a club meeting to debate these grants? I haven't. The central council motion to congress specifically states that they are backing the grant aid package in its final form, yet this final form is not yet available for anybody to read? How can clubs discuss a motion to congress when the fine details of what the motion proposes have not even been worked out and will not be realeased until the middle of this month? It has taken Croke Park/The sports Council/The GPA/ three and a half months to finalise the package yet clubs are expected to discuss the package within a two week time frame and return their verdict to county boards by the first week of April so their delegates can vote as their count members want them too at Congress.
The grants and pay for play are very different issues IMO, the point is that DF's opinions on the future of the GAA are largely irrelevent as indeed are the opinions of IC players. Until the majority of GAA members vote for professionalism it doesn't matter what peoples private opinions are on the matter. I have no problem with DF wanting a professional GAA (if infact he does) and I have no problem with him trying to achieve that goal (if infact he is), the point is he has to convince me, you and thousands of others before that can happen.
IMO Dessie doesn't want a pro-GAA and he is not pursuing that goal, but if I'm wrong, so what? The bottom line is that like every other major change in the GAA it will only happen when the vast majority of members want it and vote for it.
Like the attempted introduction of the grants without reference to any, never mind the vast majority, of members?
Hardy read the first line of my previous post, the grants is a minor issue when compared with turning the GAA into a full time professional sporting organisation. You don't think that paying IC players a living wage could be foisted upon the GAA without a vote, do you?
Has anyone done an exercise into how much it would cost the GAA to pay the players ?
Quote from: Zulu on March 01, 2008, 05:57:18 PM
QuoteWill the majority of the GAA vote on this? Whatever u think of the rights or wrongs of grant aid it seems to me that the very least that should be done is for clubs to debate this and then mandate their county boards. Is that happening? Has anyone here got notification of a club meeting to debate these grants? I haven't. The central council motion to congress specifically states that they are backing the grant aid package in its final form, yet this final form is not yet available for anybody to read? How can clubs discuss a motion to congress when the fine details of what the motion proposes have not even been worked out and will not be realeased until the middle of this month? It has taken Croke Park/The sports Council/The GPA/ three and a half months to finalise the package yet clubs are expected to discuss the package within a two week time frame and return their verdict to county boards by the first week of April so their delegates can vote as their count members want them too at Congress.
The grants and pay for play are very different issues IMO, the point is that DF's opinions on the future of the GAA are largely irrelevent as indeed are the opinions of IC players. Until the majority of GAA members vote for professionalism it doesn't matter what peoples private opinions are on the matter. I have no problem with DF wanting a professional GAA (if infact he does) and I have no problem with him trying to achieve that goal (if infact he is), the point is he has to convince me, you and thousands of others before that can happen.
IMO Dessie doesn't want a pro-GAA and he is not pursuing that goal, but if I'm wrong, so what? The bottom line is that like every other major change in the GAA it will only happen when the vast majority of members want it and vote for it.
Zulu - There are a large portion of gaels who think that the decision grant aid is the single most important decision to be taken by the GAA in the last fifty years perhaps. What I am saying is that the GAA hierarchy have denied the ordinary member a chance to speak on this issue. Plain and simple. In reality my opinion or ur opinion do not matter - what shud matter is that it is clear that the issue is big enough to warrant a proper debate. What i do not understand is why people are afraid to allow the ordinary members have their say.
BB I certainly have no problem if the 'grants' debate goes through the same process as the 'Croke Park' debate. But I'm not sure I'd accept that there are a large portion of gaels who regard the grants as a major issue, certainly few of the ones I've spoken to are overly concerned. Now I accept that that proves nothing and in truth I have spoken to very few on this issue but I'm inclined to suspect that a few people are making a big noise over the grants issue. This issue was in the public domain for a long time, yet it was only when the top brass went the opposite way to what some people expected that they kicked up a fuss. The grants issue is a sub-argument in the larger GPA debate and while I support the grants but would lose little sleep if they are not granted I strongly support an independent players representitive organisation. The GAA needs a group that agitates for change and keeps the top brass on their toes.
You have been listening to breheney in the Indepdent Zulu - This 'in the public domain thing' is a complete red herring. It was not in the public domain for a loing time. Lets have a look at the history - the GAA and the GPA agree a jont document to put forwad to the government to cover 'out of pocket expenses' in april. The GAA comment twice on this in as many weeks and after their second comment say quite clearly that they will not be commenting again on the issue. They are completely silent until the players threaten strike late in the year.
Then all of a sudden a deal is done. A deal that contains no figures and which clearly states that grant aid is 'performance related.'
There is two distinct deals
So no Zulu - this deal has not been in the public domain for a long time and I am sorry but if people cannot see that there is a difference between an agreement, in April, which says it covers 'further out of pocket expenses' and one that is purely related to performance and was decided upon (in rough draft form only) in december then we are in trouble. Grants for out of pocket expenses and grants for performance on the field are two entirely different things and IMO the second is much more dangerous than the former. If you want to believe our President and journalists who choose to distort the facts then plz - go right ahead.
Why have no figures been made available on the actual difference between the two tiers of this latest deal?
What is the possible reason for such secrecy?
And if you want copies of the two agreements i will pm you details Zulu and you can make your own mind up.
QuoteAnd if you want copies of the two agreements i will pm you details Zulu and you can make your own mind up.
If you wouldn't mind BB. It's too late now to go through them but i will do tomorrow and I'll get back to you.
Quote from: Zulu on March 01, 2008, 08:03:23 PM
Hardy read the first line of my previous post, the grants is a minor issue when compared with turning the GAA into a full time professional sporting organisation. You don't think that paying IC players a living wage could be foisted upon the GAA without a vote, do you?
Zulu, that's where we differ fundamentally. The grants issue is far from a minor issue. In my opinion, it's a very clear breach of the amateurism rule and it was very nearly foisted on us without a vote. Paying grants, as clarified by the European Court ruling on the Belgian judo(?) player renders playing GAA games an economic activity. The argument about who pays the money is a red herring. Any action of the GAA that impinges on a player's ability to "earn" this money will be in breach of the law. That's where the GAA executive has brought us without any reference, so far, to the membership through the proper democratic procedures.
Only the most blinkered, naive optimist could deny that it's a series of small steps from grants to bigger grants, to contracts, to transfers, to full time professionalism for a small elite (much fewer than 32 counties).
So, to answer your question, I would not have believed that the GAA could foist full time professionalism on us without a vote. But, to my amazement, they have almost succeeded in foisting the first step on us, by the simple method of decreeing that the grants arrangement breaches no rules, so no vote is necessary. If that gets through, on what basis would they need to come to congress with the next step - say a doubling of the grants? And the one after that - and so on.
Hear,Hear Hardy, anyone with a nodding acquaintance of logic and reason knows you are 100% right.