Stephen Kernan should have been substituted and what does Oisin have to do to be taken off - Goodbye Joe - thanks for the memories but as a tactican you sorely missed Paul Grimley this year - family and club loyalities have there place - but today was shocking.
Couldn't this go in the "what now for Armagh thread?"?
Quote from: J70 on July 08, 2007, 07:34:33 PM
Couldn't this go in the "what now for Armagh thread?"?
Ah dry your f**king eyes you internet warrior - I didn't see that before I started this thread - if you have nothing to say or it doesn't interest you don't read it. ::)
:-* :-* :-*
who did keenan come on for?
Why was mckeever taken off at half time?
Agree with LTD about Oisin but i'll go one further, Stevie was pretty much on his own
in that FF line, Marsden should never have come back either as i think he had lost alot
of what he posessed back a number of years ago.
I think that we've seen the last of some of the Orchard's big guns, indeed Grimley is badly
missed on the line, the McEntee's also
keenan for p mckeever k mckeever knee injury .
He isn't the worse, if he'd got the ball when he was in the positions he was in the second half Armagh would have had no problems but certain Armagh players wouldn't play the ball to him. He scored 2 good points also, more than a lot of others done.
And before anyone starts, I'm not from cross or previously a fan of SK's, I just felt he got shafted by some of his team mates today after running himself into the ground.
They may have proved a point but at what cost???
simon you really are simple
Does he play CHF for Crossmaglen?
Quote from: Over the Bar on July 08, 2007, 08:30:38 PM
Does he play CHF for Crossmaglen?
He's been warming the subs bench
He struggles to start for Cross.
I badmouth SK as much as anyone but there is no denying he had a very good second half and ran himself into the ground. He is however, obviously not up to that standard and the likes of Toal, O Rourke and Vernon must be wondering what is going on when they are behind the likes of him.
Is this the worst thread ever ???
whether he is or he isn't- i don't think it's an appropriate topic for such personalised insults. Armagh's demise over the last few years is hardly all his fault. Team has simply aged that's all. An awful lot of players who've won everything and have simply nothing left to give. new management- some new players and armagh will be back again.
I agree with the last post - Leave Stephen Kernan alone - if he wasn't Joe Kernan's sons you would not be talking about him -
Same thing happened when Mark Harte played for Tyrone - he got slagged simply cos he was Mickey's son - Mark was and is a tremendous footballer in his OWN right - same with Kernan - and both are nice lads as well - so just catch yourselves on and instead of being critical you should be looking back with fond memories over a glorious era in Armagh football - thanks to Big Jie, Paul Grimley, Mc Closkey, Mc Geeney and ALL the players and backroom staff and county board.
And this is from a Tyrone supporter.
Orangem,an this is certainly not just because he is Joes son. The insults should not be aimed at Stephen, he is a limited player but that is not his fault. The blame should lie at Joes feet for leaving him open to such ridicule.
Agreed Corn 02 but leave it at that and give thanks for the great 7 or 8 years you had under the two Brians and Big Joe.
Joe was right in most other decisions / selections he made - why should this decision be such a point for discussion ?
What about Shane O'Neill (Dromintee) and David McKenna (Crossmaglen)?
Are these two players not worth their place in the panel?
Ahh Orangeman you went up in my estimation when you said thank Big Joe and the two Brians. You think opinions on Joe are bad, hardly anyone has a good word for the Brians.
Thank you Joe for delivery Sam, and thank you Brians for contributing greatly to it aswell. Regardless of how you played out the last few dyas, they defiently built a part of that team.
ONeill is in Australia and I believe McKenna opted not to join the panel this year?
If Joe decides to step down then the new manager will be Paul Grimley assisted by Diarmaid Marsden and Kieran McGeeney.
I wish Exile, but it will be Rafferty all the way.
Which Rafferty ? John or Peter ?
John.
Quote from: INDIANA on July 08, 2007, 09:16:17 PM
whether he is or he isn't- i don't think it's an appropriate topic for such personalised insults. Armagh's demise over the last few years is hardly all his fault. Team has simply aged that's all. An awful lot of players who've won everything and have simply nothing left to give. new management- some new players and armagh will be back again.
Agreed totally - the heading of this thread is an insult. Anyone having a go at the lad on the basis of today, do yourselves a favour. Have a serious look at the bigger picture. SK cannot be blamed for glaring failures in our full forward line! >:(
Stephen Kernan's best position may not be CHF and perhaps he shouldn't be starting ahead of some other players, but he contributed 2 excellent points from play today. Armagh didn't loose because of him. They lost because they only scored 9 points and they are unable to rack up any more than 9/10 scores in a game. That's not Stephen Kernan's fault.
The defence played well. Holding a team to 10 points in a game has to be applauded. Midfield failed to win enough breaking ball with very little in the way of clean catches. This has been an increasing trend throughout the league.
In the half-forward line I thought Martin O'Rourke played well and done his job successfully. Kernan as a playmaker doesn't work, but he is capable of taking scores and seems to be improving. He just might a slow burner. Paddy McKeever contributed very little and is too far withdrawn from goal. We need another attacking minded half-forward.
McConville offered very little from open play today. Its two years since he hasn't been a passenger and should be no more than an impact sub. Marsden showed glimpses of yesteryear, but its hard to know whether he will be back next year either. I wouldn't say he's finished but his role should be that of an impact sub. This all leaves immense pressure on McDonnell for scores and it weighs on him. His confidence is not high for a man that was Player of the Year a few years ago. Dropping balls into the keepers hands and failing to shoot instinctively have been features of his game all year and he'll only improve once he gets more support in the full-forward line.
If Joe Kernan goes this year then it will be timely. Same Voice Syndrome is a problem. Dissension is another. If he does go, I'd imagine that several of the older hands will hang on depending on who comes in. Others will go and no matter how good the young crop is, they won't replace the older lads easily. Any body that attends National League matches will testify to that. Its very easy to talk about all of the lads that should be there. But if they were good enough, they would be playing. Although some of you lads that are fond of ridiculing the Kernan family should consider this; whoever replaces Joe will keep Aaron on the team, perhaps Steven on the panel and maybe even involve one of the other lads.
Fair play to this bunch of players and the management that have brought so much success to this team. They ought to be congratulated. If Clarke, Mallon and Bellew had been fit I don't think they'd be in this position, but they are and it looks like the end of an era.
I've just watched the Sunday game and I saw Stephen Kernan score two great points and the commnetator state " Stephen Kernan is having a great game for Armagh today !"
What is this thread really about ? Is it about Stephen or Joe ?
Oh and by the way - if the other Armagh forwards had scored the same as Stephen then SArmagh would have won by 2 !
GPA OK - Fair enough analysis - Today was not about Stephen Kernan - Armagh lost cos they couldn't score enough - their inability to score more than 8/9/10 was always going to come home to roost - it did so against Donegal and again today !
But If I were an Armagh supporter as past 10 years I'd have been MORE than pleased.
Orangeman at that stage he was not having a great game as stated the first point was excellent and after the second point his runs were very good but up until his second score he had been missing in action.
I too think it is a ridicoulous thread to start and is no better than the booing of Mark Hasrte, but I feel that S Kernan is not County standard and I will state that although in more rlevant threads and with a more intelligent approach rather than "hes a shitebag!"
I'm confused. I was at this game as a neutral and thought Stephen was one of Armagh's best players!
Could someone tell me how Stephen Kernan is better than Liam O'Hare. He couldn't even lace his boots!!!
Maguire he touched the ball about two times in the first half and hit two very poor passes from them.
His first point was pure class and he took the second well but when the chips were down he did not show either. There were plenty of players as bad today but I think it is fair to say he has to play above himself to even look half decent.
is it possible that stephen kernan is being used as the scapegoat by a section of the armagh support in the realisation that the team of the last few years is aging, past their best and inevitabley on the way out.
certainly hasnt been armaghs worst forward this year
Over the two championship games he certainly has Bensars. It is not a case of creating a scapegoat nor do I believe it is an anti Kernan thing. The people like myself who doubt Stephen would equally tell you how good Aaron is (Even if he was terrible today). The fact is that if Joe was not manager he would not be playing.
Admin, care to do anything about this thread?
Jaysus the lad may well be on this site and as has been said before,
its hardly his fault, Armagh as a team have been fending this day off for long enough now.
He's being made a scapegoat here whether some of you care to admit it or not.
There were after all, 5 other forwards playing today also if that's what you'd call it.
Thought some of us here especially the Armagh Men would have learned something from
the Mark Harte saga, you were quite vocal in your disgust of the treatment of Harte at the time :o
I started a thread last year about Michael Greenan and it didn't get staying up for any more than about 20 minutes! What the f$*k is going on with this one? I could debate Stephen Kernan's performance with anyone but I wouldn't dignify this!!!!
Ok i changed the title of the thread but the point remains - I was speaking to a former Armagh player and all-ireland medal winner after the match and he was astonished that SK stayed on the field from a playing perspective but not at all from a personal perspective. People keep saying he scored 2 points - he did and they were good points - but he didnt want to know most of the match - Oisin had a stinker - has he ever been substituted for Armagh. Ok the title of the thread was probably OTT - just home from match and I was running on emotion - it wasn't a personal attack - though i appreciate it seemed that way and therefore apologise if I insulted the man; I was merely trying to make the point that JK missed Paul Grimley and that he seemed to manage with his heart - club and family loyalities being the order of the day - rather that his head.
Kernan scored 2 points in a crucial stage in the game. Unfortunately it wasn't built upon. I couldn't really care less what a retired player thinks. Maybe, like you, he has an axe to grind. I stood beside a man yesterday that was screaming abuse at Stephen for delivering a twenty yard fist pass to McDonnell inside the 40. I had to ask him, what the problem was with delivering the ball to the chest of your one marquee full-forward.
Some Armagh supporters were out to see him fail from the off and given the abuse that he suffers, its no wonder he is taking time to reach expected levels. I've a funny feeling that we would get more out of him under another manager. However, its hard to know. I'd imagine he mightn't even get a game depending on who comes in.
I really think he has a bundle of talent, but he's taking longer to develop it and playing in a central position means that he's always going to be under more pressure than his brother. I like nothing more than to see him prove assholes like you wrong.
PS - I'm not from Crossmaglen, but I'm an Armagh supporter and a GAA person. A descent GAA person would not have posted a thread with that title yesterday.
While Stephen Kernan would not have been on my teamsheet I thought he was one of our better performers on the day.he was finding space very well in the third quarter. At one stage in the third quarter, he was standing on his own in front of goal waving frantically with Stevie in possession in front of the Gerry Arthurs stand, Stevie didn't see him, didn't pass and a goal opportunity was wasted. If it was the other way round and Kernan didn't pass to McDonnell he would have been hung!!!
Liam O'Hare might get his chance now if Joe retires. I remember thinking that O'Hare didn't get enough opportunities. But anytime he did play for the county he underperformed. If he performed to his potential Joe couldn't have dropped him.
Bottom line is this. Armagh had very few options on the line yesterday that would have improved the team to the extent that they would have won. From reading this board, members of every club in the county like to espouse the 'great white hopes that should be on the team'.
The Harpsmen talk about Toal and Swift. Cullyhanna men about O'Hare and Mackin. There are other players from Dromintee and lads with U21 medals like Forker, Moriarity and co.
The best of these lads were tried in the league and none of them sparked into life and made a huge difference in any game. Armagh still failed to win important league games. In fairness, Kernan showed that he isn't that conservative by giving Toner and Donaghy debuts. He couldn't remove all of the experienced heads from the team.
He has done a good job of beginning the rebuilding process. Unlike Pete McGrath he won't be leaving behind a mess if he leaves now.
S Kernans runs were excellent in the second half and if other forwards had looked up he may have got a goal or a few more scores but 35 mins of good football does not hide the fact that anothermanager would struggle to include him in the squad.
Stop the bus !! Was Stephen Kernan not one of Armagh's better forwards y'day ? If he was, what is all the chat about ?
Well he was in the second half and was probably third best behind O Rourke and McDonnell. As I stated 35 minutes does not prove you to be a great CHF, glad he done better though.
Jaysus lads, this bitching about Kernan is OTT.
Every county player expects a certain amount of critcism, but not this much.
In the 2 championship games this year S Kernan has played better than most of the other forwards that appeared
Thought he was very poor against Donegal to be fair. Agreed about the bitching and I am guilty of it to. McConville was awful yesterday but the fact that he has done so much for Armagh means he escapes ridicule.
Quote from: corn02 on July 09, 2007, 12:17:52 PM
Thought he was very poor against Donegal to be fair. Agreed about the bitching and I am guilty of it to. McConville was awful yesterday but the fact that he has done so much for Armagh means he escapes ridicule.
Are you sure we are talking about the same game here corn ???
the game is over .we are out . lets give the lad a break. one final point on joe . all ireland semi final v tryone two points up six mins to go and he takes of his captain .crazzzzzy.
Quote from: twotwocharlie on July 09, 2007, 12:29:08 PM
the game is over .we are out . lets give the lad a break. one final point on joe . all ireland semi final v tryone two points up six mins to go and he takes of his captain .crazzzzzy.
Aye that's it 22, lets give the lad a break & get stuck into his Da!
Kerry Mike's comment on other thread is probably right. Kieran Donaghy finished Armagh last year.
This group of footballers owes the Armagh supporter or wider GAA audience absolutely nothing. They havent always been my favourite team - didnt like the "falling" on opposition players/ knees in back type stuff - but all in all a much more honest footballing team than their Tyrone neighbours.
No county has any god given right to all ireland/Ulster success and after a period of such dominance a while in the wilderness will follow. Players of the quality of Cross lads, Marsden,McGrane, McGeeney and Stevie just dont turn up at the same time .
cant argue with the sentiment that armagh management were too conservative yesterday, but I feel that if grimley and mc geeney were to come on board as a management duo, alittle tinkering might allow us to move forward again, clarke and mallon will benefit from a year out of football to treat their injuries, dyas has the makings of a good player as has lavery, the big decisions that have to be made are who is to play in the half forward line, mor should stay but stephen and paddy are not good enough and dont carry a scoring threat, oisin also has lost his ability to score therefore forker should get his chance in the league as should toal , I also feel that aaron should move forward and allow dyas to take his place,
am disappointed but feel that we are not that far away
My feeling is that you are a little deluded Naka.
Take McGrane, McConville and McNulty out and you loose your most experienced players.
Take out McGeeney and you loose the beating heart of the team.
These men are currently irreplaceable given the panel available. A couple of years in the wilderness would probably be right.
Although he did a lot of hard grafting MOR had the most crucial miss of the day when he ballooned one wide from 20yds instead of chipping it over. This would have put Armagh 3 up when they were in control. This along with free-kicks missed by Oisin & Aaron gave Derry the heart to keep pegging away through Bradley's frees. Its a thin line between victory & defeat think of all the teams who Armagh turned over in the last 5 minutes to snatch draws or wins eg Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh. Manys the time Cathal O'Rourke, John McEntee, Brian Mallon, Ronan Clarke or Oisin got the late crucial scores. Steven Kernan got 2 chances and put them over in the 2nd half. Others had chances and missed.
GPA, character is not always triumphant over talent.
Full back, indeed. Except for his point at the start of the second half he was poor in Ballybofey.
It is difficult to understand the criticism of Stephen Kernan. He scored two excellent points yesterday. For the first point, he created loads of space for himself by sidestepping the Derry defender. The problem for Armagh was that they couldn't get enough space to shoot, so any player like Stephen who can create space like this is certainly worth his place on the team. The second point was also a great effort from distance.
Armagh only scored nine points in total and Stephen scored two of the best of them, so what's the problem? He is only a new member of the championship team, so what do people expect from him ? Do they expect him to score five or six points? This year Armagh have needed scoring forwards, but when a fellah like Stephen comes along and scores a few great points, some supporters slag him off. He plays in the half forward line so two points in a game is a very good return from a half forward.
Supporters are meant to get behind the team and management. If everyone roared Stephen on and encouraged him and built up his confidence, I'm certain that he would score even more. Remember he comes from very good stock, his father was a superb forward and Aaron is also excellent. Stephen was brilliant during the Under 21 All Ireland and Peter Rafferty had great faith in him.
And anyway, he's obviously made of stern stuff because despite the criticism he has received he proved his doubters wrong with two great scores yesterday. Fair play to you Stephen.
Dont think you's should be to critical of Joe Kernan who has kept the team close to the top for 4-5 years despite many limitations. I couldnt believe how many Armagh fans had convinced themselves after a narrow defeat to Donegal that they were in the top 3 teams in Ireland. In reality Armagh have struggled this year and with a few injuries didnt look capable of going to far. I think the myth that Armagh cant be beaten in matches were it is close going into the last 10 minutes has been cruelly exposed over the last few years. They are a good team at hanging in in matches and thus are involved in many close matches and when against inexperienced teams they inevitably win. However in the big matches or against the bigger teams they have been knocked out on quite a few occasions:
Derry yesterday
Tyrone 05
Fermanagh 04
Tyrone 03
2000 v Kerry
2001 v Galway
I think its lazy journalism by Spillane and co. Armagh are a good team at winning close matches but this talk that the pundits come out with making them out to be unbeatable is wrong. From a Tyrone perspective I hope that yesterday doesnt show our victory against Donegal was meaningless as they are a lot worse than 1st thought. Armagh can come back from this but I dont think any realistic supporter can expect an All Ireland in the next 2 years no matter who the manager is. The newer guys coming in will need time to adjust to the big games.
Quote from: twotwocharlie on July 09, 2007, 12:29:08 PM
the game is over .we are out . lets give the lad a break. one final point on joe . all ireland semi final v tryone two points up six mins to go and he takes of his captain .crazzzzzy.
Factualy wrong twotwocharlie, Armagh weren't two points up!!!
QuoteDont think you's should be to critical of Joe Kernan who has kept the team close to the top for 4-5 years despite many limitations. I couldnt believe how many Armagh fans had convinced themselves after a narrow defeat to Donegal that they were in the top 3 teams in Ireland. In reality Armagh have struggled this year and with a few injuries didnt look capable of going to far. I think the myth that Armagh cant be beaten in matches were it is close going into the last 10 minutes has been cruelly exposed over the last few years. They are a good team at hanging in in matches and thus are involved in many close matches and when against inexperienced teams they inevitably win. However in the big matches or against the bigger teams they have been knocked out on quite a few occasions:
Derry yesterday
Tyrone 05
Fermanagh 04
Tyrone 03
2000 v Kerry
2001 v Galway
I think its lazy journalism by Spillane and co. Armagh are a good team at winning close matches but this talk that the pundits come out with making them out to be unbeatable is wrong. From a Tyrone perspective I hope that yesterday doesnt show our victory against Donegal was meaningless as they are a lot worse than 1st thought. Armagh can come back from this but I dont think any realistic supporter can expect an All Ireland in the next 2 years no matter who the manager is. The newer guys coming in will need time to adjust to the big games.
Tyrone Dreamer, true Armagh have been beaten in a number of tight encounters, and some very high profile ones, but the above are only a small percentage of the games Armagh played in and won since 1999 by the narrowest of scorelines. have never done big scorelines like Tyrone!
By the sounds of Big Joe today, he could still be in the seat for next year ! What do you think ?
Honestly, I would be gutted Orangeman. If the players are retiring as expected I would love a new manger to oversee a complete change, preferably Grimley.
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 09, 2007, 11:32:06 PM
Stalement if Joe stays and God help us if John Rafferty takes over as the anointed one!
I thought J Rafferty was supposed to be a great yoke TYP's ???
Was there not a fair bit of excitement around the orchard with his coming
on board?
I would think the jury's out on Rafferty. This year was a bit of a wipe out but I suppose he could argue that when he came in the injuries started to mount up. I must say that it's not as if Clarke's injury happened two weeks before the championship and really good management would have adjusted our style of play in the forwards as the long high balls that had been so successful with Clarke and McDonnell under them were never going to work as well without Clarke. The only time that I can remember us varying from this tactic was in the 04 Ulster final when the half forwards were allowed up to support the two man full forward line and we reeked havoc that day. Only M O'Rourke seemed to want to take on his man on Sunday. Pacy forwards who can take on their men and commit other defenders, surely this could have been worked on over the winter.
Now Joe deserves full credit for what he has achieved for Armagh, he brought us our first All Ireland and that will never be forgotten.
However, I do not subscribe to the view that Joe should always have the last say as to when he quits as manager. I believe that should he wish to stay on for another year, for the good of Armagh football and rebuilding, his hand should be forced and made to go.
It is now that Armagh need new ideas and a fresh approach. Joe should be given the chance to walk away on his on terms gracefully which hopefully he will do. Paul Grimley is the man for the job.
Balladmaker well said, I do hope that Joe does not overstay his time a la pete mc grath, my feeling is that we do have some super young players coming through, dyas, toal vernon, lavery, as well as clarke, mallon , mallon, and aaron. my hope is that mc grane stays as captain and enda stays( thought he was excellent this year )as well as bellew.
if so with grimley and geezer taking over i wouldnt be too down hearted
See my post in Potential new Armagh managers about if Paul Hearty hadn't dropped that ball in Ballybofey ! What do you think ?
orangeman, focusing on an individual error like that is only papering over the cracks. Yeah if Hearty hadn't dropped it who knows. Then again who's to say Donegal wouldn't have gotten a couple of points in any event - they were coming back anyway. The root of the problem has been a lack of scoring ability and that has been a real problem for quite some time -throughout all of the league campaign and stretching back to last year and even before that. Joe Kernan couldn't wave a wand and conjure up more forwards, but there were one or 2 other options he could have tried but didn't. Either he was very blinkered in his thinking or he didn't have enough faith in his subs bench.
What exactly is the evidence supporting Paul Grimley's case as a successor?
I have been studying this over and on reflection I have come to the conclusion that Joe Kernan should remain as manager but should drop his backroom team and appoint a completely new assistant, trainer, coach, etc. Stay for a 3 year period and in conjunction with his new mentors should sort out a new panel of players - which would include the bulk of the present squad - and be left to get on with the task of rebuilding a side to not only challenge but to win an All-ireland.
Mickey Harte got rid of this trainer and won another All-Ireland. Seamus McEneaney sacked his backroom team and appointed a new one and his side is in Sunday's Ulster final.
I still feel that Armagh have the nucleas of a good team with the inclusion of a few fresh faces like Gareth O'Neill (Dromintee), David McKenna (Crossmaglen) to name but two.
Time for your tablets.
I personally think that it should be Joe who decides whether to stay or go - he's been the main man as past 6 years - so let him have the final say -
It should certainly not be up to the manger to decide, by your reasoning any manager who is successful in the early days can stay on as long as they like?
First of all Joe will definately go, it's time for a change. McGrane, McGeeney, McNulty, Marsden, McConville, Bellew will retire. By the way Paddy McKeever should as well, he has definetly lost it. Replacement for Joe is hard to say, anyone from John Rafferty, Peter Rafferty, Peter McDonnell, Paul Grimley, Ciaran McGeneey.
Whoever is the manager should definitely look to the future. My team would be
1. Hearty
2. Mallon
3. Toner/Moriarty
4. Donaghy
5.Kernan
6. McKeever
7. Dyas
8. Lavery
9. Vernon
10. Liam O'Hare
11. Mallon
12. Martin O'Rourke
13. McDonnell
14. Clarke
15. Toal/Foker/ Michael O'Rourke whichever one shows best through the league.
I feel this team has alot of promise and if it was coached right and was fully dedicated could do very well.
Last thing. I would like to thank Joe and the boys I have mentioned that will probably retire for the effort they put in and the success they brought to Armagh. They will always be remebered.