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It's the end of an era in Armagh, even the most ardent Joe fan has to admit it.   So what now?

Most of McConville, Bellew, McGeeney, O'Rourke, McGrane, Marsden etc all likely to follow Joe en masse out of the Armagh set up.

Who takes over?   John Raffery?  Peter Rafferty?  Paul Grimely?  All are likely to throw their hat in the ring for the job as all feel they deserve a crack at it.  The obvious choice seems like Peter Rafferty as it will be mainly players from his u21 squad that fill the gaps left by the old stalwarts.   Who do the Armagh brethren think should take over?

After watching them today it looks like the rearguard will all go and I just hope for all your sakes that you dont end up like Down have - for we are in one big mess at the moment and it came from never getting the adequate replacements from the team that won 2 AI's.

A new manager with a fresh approach will have a capable squad to work with. Armagh could be dangerous again in 2008. Joe's approach, whilst novel and innovative in 2002, had become stale and predictable. 2005 and that semi-final was when the scales tipped in terms of credible Sam contenders. I see young Dyas was introduced. With players of this calibre and the likes of Forker in the wings, they'll not regress to the dark days of the 80s/90s.

Well the wheel's came off the Tyrone bus last year and were pretty much in the same position as Armagh see themselve in now. 12 months later, Tyrone back are in another Ulster Final and are 2nd favourites to win the All-Ireland.

Don't write off Armagh yet, they will have plenty of time to regroup and to blood a lot of new potential players. Add into the mix that there'll be a new management team, with fresh new ideas..... Armagh could be a force to be reckoned with again next year.

EDIT: Spelling and grammatical errors ;)

Quote from: ziggysego on July 08, 2007, 08:26:03 PM
Well the wheel's came off the Tyrone bus last year and were pretty much in the same position as Armagh see themselve in now. 12 months later, Tyrone back are in another Ulster Final and are 2nd favours to win the All-Ireland.

Don't write off Armagh yet, they will have plenty of time to regroup and to blood a lot of new potential players. Add into the mix that there'll be a new management team, with fresh new ideas..... Armagh could be a force to be reckoned with again next year.

Aren't Tyrone's top players about four or five years younger than Armagh's though?

Not really. The likes of McDonnell, Mallon, Clarke, Kernan etc are all of a similar age bracket.

I was thinking more of the likes of McGrane, McNulty, Bellew, McGeeney, McKeever and McConville!

Paul grimley is the man . armagh through and through.HE kept joe right that much is now clear.All said that team owes us nothing . I have some great great memories.Thanks Lads.

Quote from: J70 on July 08, 2007, 08:27:11 PM
Aren't Tyrone's top players about four or five years younger than Armagh's though?

To be honest, part of Armagh's problem (in my opinion) was that they relied too much on old talents for too long. Tyrone was guilty of the same thing.

It's time to use this time wisely and search the county for new players, like Tyrone did. We now have McGuigan Jnr, Cavanagh Jnr, Gormley and others coming through to the team and marking their terrority.

Big Joe gone?? Thats the chips vans outside the Carrickdale fucked.

So the great one in a row team has eventually come to an end....the only team to win two All Irelands in the same year....their first and their last :D :D

Quote from: 5 Sams on July 08, 2007, 08:37:09 PM
Big Joe gone?? Thats the chips vans outside the Carrickdale fucked.

So the great one in a row team has eventually come to an end....the only team to win two All Irelands in the same year....their first and their last :D :D

Nice one 5 Sams - laighing and pointing the finger at our ship going down, as you bob up and down on the waves in your life jacket!   ::)

QuoteBig Joe gone?? Thats the chips vans outside the Carrickdale fucked.

So the great one in a row team has eventually come to an end....the only team to win two All Irelands in the same year....their first and their last Cheesy Cheesy

Maybe we'll join you now 5Sams - and we'll all live in the past!
We'll watch ours on DVD and you can dust down the redundant VCR and black & white newsreel !

Armagh have to rebuild now - Down don't appear to even have a site!! :P

Quote from: ONeill on July 08, 2007, 08:18:39 PM
A new manager with a fresh approach will have a capable squad to work with. Armagh could be dangerous again in 2008. Joe's approach, whilst novel and innovative in 2002, had become stale and predictable. 2005 and that semi-final was when the scales tipped in terms of credible Sam contenders. I see young Dyas was introduced. With players of this calibre and the likes of Forker in the wings, they'll not regress to the dark days of the 80s/90s.

Good man Shane - spot on submission.

I'm afraid today was the day we all dreaded, knew was coming but tried to put it out of our minds. I think it is clear that the Father Time has caught up with the main men that took us to the dizzy heights of an All Ireland. They owe us nothing and go into the Armagh pantheon as football immortals - take a bow!

I'm loathe to say it but I'm afraid that at this juncture it is probably best that Big Joe moves on. I feel, and it was evident today, that he is too conservative in his approach, both in team selection, tactics and changes throughout the game. The time is right for a new approach.

The man I reckon who would be best for the job would be Paul Grimley - a brilliant man manager, tactician, innovator and motivator, and someone who will not stand by and stick with tried and tested formulae. I would love to see McGeeney as his right hand man - someone who would have the respect of the players and would instill discipline and a will to win that he himself helped bring to the squad.

My guess though is that John or Peter Rafferty will in all likelihood get the job. Hvaing said all that, maybe Joe might want to stay on - who knows?

My feeling as regards the players is that we are bound to lose some or all of Francie, Oisin, Enda, Paul McGrane and Geezer. The nightmare scenario for me would be Stevie, Martin O'Rourke and Paddy McKeever quitting along with these five. That would be too much to lose.

As stated by Shane above - there is potential there. My concern would be that we have not done what Down did and left it too late. I would like to see the likes of Paul Duffy, Kevin Dyas, James Lavery, Donaghy, Toner, Vernon, Michael O'Rourke, Peadar Toal, Stefan Forker all get a good run in the team with a view to next year and beyond. There is plenty of talent there - it must be given the opportunity. We already have solid established players like Ciaran McKeever, Aaron Kernan, Martin O'Rourke, Ronan Clarke, Andy Mallon, Stevie etc. There is no reason why we cannot look forward with some optimism.

It looks at this point that it is a very long way back - still, where there's life there's hope!  ;)  

Spot on Rufus, excellent post. I don't think you need to worry about O Rourke though he is only 27 I think and playing the football of his life.

The popularity of the game in Armagh over the last ten years has ensured that a return to the black days is certainly not on the cards. Since the All Ireland win we have won an U21 All Ireland plus an Ulster in the same grade as well as a minor Ulster title. Todays game could be a blessing in disguise. When an era ends it means new players and hopefully a new manager will have to come in. I too would love to see Grimley in charge, a man who most defiently would have the respect of the dressing room but it would appear Raff will take over which is also fair enough. The young talent is there, as I stated elsewhere, look at the bench today, the young talent was unreal.

Next year the team could line  out like this.  ( I am not guessing a team by the way, I am being hypothetical.)

McKinney
Mallon Donaghy McKeever
Dyas Vernon Duffy
Toner Lavery
A Kernan Mallon Toal
McDonnell  Clarke O Rourke

An extremely young team it would be, but looks like a good team. It shows we have the talent coming through.

Test

Everyone, without exception, seems to believe Joe will resign. Is there a chance he won't?

Uladh disagrees ONeill. I would be shocked if he stayed on.

QuoteI would love to see McGeeney as his right hand man - someone who would have the respect of the players and would instill discipline and a will to win that he himself helped bring to the squad.

Can you imagine a McGeeney training session??   100 push-ups before it starts and then bench-press twice yer own body weight 50 times before ye get home fer a veggie bhor-gor from the chip van at the carrickdale........and no smiling either............smiling is fer pussies...... :o

Who will retire now ?
Mc Nulty ?
Mc Geeney ?
Mc Grane ?


Anyone else apart from Big Joe ?

I would make a guess at Bellew, McNulty, McGeeney, McGrane and McConville.

The way I see Armagh is this - they concentrated too much in defence and keeping the score down - but they did this to the detriment of their forwards - they never regularly scored 15/16 points - they were always going to come a cropper some day when pursuing this strategy. Views ?

Any fair minded follower of the game would have to pay tribute to this Armagh team.  They have been up there with the best for the last 8 years and have given tremendous service to the game.  I have seen them in action in Croke Park twice and if some of their players have played their last inter county games they will be remembered and respected throughout the country.

Mardsen as well, forgot about him.

Indeed Orangeman it has been our downfall. We do not go for the kill and tend to sit back and hope to weather the storm. It has worked alot in the last few years, unfortunately this year our luck has been out in this area.

Quote from: 5iveTimes on July 08, 2007, 09:55:52 PM

Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on July 08, 2007, 09:16:58 PM

Quote from: 5 Sams on July 08, 2007, 08:37:09 PM
Big Joe gone?? Thats the chips vans outside the Carrickdale fucked.

So the great one in a row team has eventually come to an end....the only team to win two All Irelands in the same year....their first and their last :D :D

Nice one 5 Sams - laighing and pointing the finger at our ship going down, as you bob up and down on the waves in your life jacket!   ::)

Our ship has been around alot longer than yours and is made of sterner stuff. We`ll be back at some stage, in the meantime its still 5-1.

For one horrible moment, having spotted the Down crest, I thought that was 5 Sams response. Closer look, and it's your good self 5ive Times.

You are a very knowledgeable individual. I congratulate you on your response.  ::)

Plain and simple. Just admit that you' se cant match your neighbours.

Down Louth and Tyrone. ;D

Careful rufus, he'll take you outside and shoot you or something   ::)

I must say Bensars and 5Times have been very childish this evening. They belong on forums like  OrchardCounty. The GAABoard has a reputation for good discussion on games but it is a shame you are more worried about Armagh than your own Counties.

First of all Joe will definately go, it's time for a change. McGrane, McGeeney, McNulty, Marsden, McConville, Bellew will retire. By the way Paddy McKeever should as well, he has definetly lost it. Replacement for Joe is hard to say, anyone from John Rafferty, Peter Rafferty, Peter McDonnell, Paul Grimley, Ciaran McGeneey.
Whoever is the manager should definitely look to the future. My team would be
1. Hearty
2. Mallon
3. Toner/Moriarty
4. Donaghy
5.Kernan
6. McKeever
7. Dyas
8. Lavery
9. Vernon
10. Liam O'Hare
11. Mallon
12. Martin O'Rourke
13. McDonnell
14. Clarke
15. Toal/Foker/ Michael O'Rourke whichever one shows best through the league.

I feel this team has alot of promise and if it was coached right and was fully dedicated could do very well.

Last thing. I would like to thank Joe and the boys I have mentioned that will probably retire for the effort they put in and the success they brought to Armagh. They will always be remebered.

I tell you 5 Times if we are finished, God help what Down are.

Ah since reading your last message I now see you are fishing and I took the bait, a tip of the hat to you sir.

Quote from: 5iveTimes on July 08, 2007, 10:51:07 PM

Quote from: tevez on July 08, 2007, 10:42:27 PM

I feel this team has alot of promise and if it was coached right and was fully dedicated could do very well.

Do well in the Tommy Murphy Cup.  :D

I havent been this happy since Tyrone beat you in the AIF.  8)

That's quite sad.

Indeed that is true 5Times, but answerme this which squad would you rather have Armagh or Down?

QuoteIndeed that is true 5Times, but answerme this which squad would you rather have Armagh or Down?

Hobson's choice if ever there was one!  :P

Quote from: Over the Bar on July 08, 2007, 11:16:30 PM

QuoteIndeed that is true 5Times, but answerme this which squad would you rather have Armagh or Down?

Hobson's choice if ever there was one!  :P

More like Sophie's Choice ;)

Quote
Big Joe gone?? Thats the chips vans outside the Carrickdale fucked.

So the great one in a row team has eventually come to an end....the only team to win two All Irelands in the same year....their first and their last

Maybe we'll join you now 5Sams - and we'll all live in the past!
We'll watch ours on DVD and you can dust down the redundant VCR and black & white newsreel !

Armagh have to rebuild now - Down don't appear to even have a site!!

QuoteArmagh have to rebuild now - Down don't appear to even have a site!!

they do but like the Athletic Grounds it's STPP! :P

Armagh definitely have bright days ahead:

2004 All-Ireland U21 Champions
P Wilson, G Smyth, F Moriarty, A Mallon; A Kernan, C McKeever, B McDonald; M Mackin, G Swift, G Loughran, S Kernan, P Toal, M McNamee, R Austin, B Mallon
2006 Ulster Senior Champions
P Hearty, A Mallon, F Bellew, E McNulty, A Kernan, C McKeever, P Duffy, K McGeeney, P McGrane, M O'Rourke, J McEntee, M Mackin, S McDonnell, R Clarke, O McConville
2007 Ulster U21 Champions
P Rogers, K Dyas, B Donaghy, M Ferris; P Kernan, K Toner, T McClelland; J Lavery, D McKenna; S Forker, P Courtney, C Vernon; K O'Rourke, J Hanratty, G O'Neill
2007 All-Ireland Club Champions
P Hearty; B McKeown, F Bellew, S McNamee; A Kernan, T McEntee, J Donaldson; D McKenna, P Kernan; M Aherne, J McEntee, J Murtagh; M McNamee, J Hanratty, O McConville

If the best 15 players are taken from these 4 winning teams and they are properly managed there simply has to be more success. Today might be the end of one era but another great one is about to begin.

You can pick from club teams in the rest of the county too pat.

Having players on the Armagh senior team who already know how to win at All-Ireland level and to a lesser extent at Ulster level is much better than selecting players from the lower echelons of Armagh club football

So we're not looking for the best 15 players in Armagh Pat but the 15 players with the most medals!

I'm not going to go down the same road as you did earlier with your disgraceful comments about Stephen Kernan. I will say I am reliably informed from people who were actually in Clones today and selecting players from the lower divsions of Armagh county football is not the way to bring success.

Quote from: 5iveTimes on July 08, 2007, 10:51:07 PM

Quote from: tevez on July 08, 2007, 10:42:27 PM

I feel this team has alot of promise and if it was coached right and was fully dedicated could do very well.

Do well in the Tommy Murphy Cup.  :D

I havent been this happy since Tyrone beat you in the AIF.  8)

The 'aristocrats' reduced to taking pleasure in their neighbours' misfortune! Not a lot else for them in the modern game!!!!!!

Quote from: PatDaly on July 09, 2007, 02:03:26 AM

I'm not going to go down the same road as you did earlier with your disgraceful comments about Stephen Kernan. I will say I am reliably informed from people who were actually in Clones today and selecting players from the lower divsions of Armagh county football is not the way to bring success.

What "disgraceful" comment about Stephen Kernan was this?  ::)
I'm not saying you go to division 4 to select your team! Your main aim to is select the best players in Armagh (some may be division 4 players) and a lot of them will probably come from the lists you put up however you cannot sit down with the names of those on 4 winning teams to pick a panel, that is ridiculous! 

Wind yer neck in Pat Daly. ::)

Today hopefully ushers in a new era for Armagh football, the players and panelists from 99 on can look back and know that they were part of the greatest era in Armagh football and they must know that the sacrifices they made will not be forgotten.

Marsden will probably be gone, as will Bellew, McConville and McGrane  also (although I hope he has one more year in him) and who knows what stevie will do? I hope to God he stays on but you never know. These man have been wonderful ambassadors for Armagh football and I applaud them all, on a personal level they mean the world to me and I will never forget what they accomplished for Armagh.

Joe nees to move on, he has done what he can and he has been magnificent but he is fast becoming what Pete McGrath was to down after the lustre had worn off, acrimony and controversy swirl around the big man in part because of his penchant for playing his sons before they are ready when there are better men on the line and also because he stuck with a format that didnt suit us, i.e the two man line and he was and is too conservative in his approach.

Paul Grimley is the man for the job, he takes no shit from no man and will have a ton of built in credibility with the panel, he does not play favourites and is a master tactician however Rafferty will probably get the job and he has had AI success with the U21 squad so he would be ok as well but for me the man to bring us back would be Grimley.

We have a ton of talent in the county, fresh legs are needed and young players need to be blooded but make no mistake the talent is there, we will be back knocking on the door sooner rather than later but for now we lick our wounds and reflect back on an unparralled era of accomplishment the likes of which we had never seen before.

Thanks for the memories Armagh, we have been blessed to have witnessed your heart, drive and dedication, it was one hell of a ride. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I would hope that the County Board will have successors to Big Joe lined up.  He indicated at the start of the year that this would be his last year.  I congratulate him for his success.  If he is going it has to be now.  (I suspect from his talk though, " couldn't put another team out against Armagh" etc, that he sees a future in some position)

The players, the county and the sponsors need to know who the future is and what they need to do to put Armagh back at the top.   Personally I would like to see Grimley back and Geezer on board as well.

With the benefit of hindsight, the downward curve started after the 05 semi final, the last two league campaigns have been very poor and Ronan Clarke virtually won the Ulster and kept us in the Kerry game on his own last year. Joe has brought us unprecedented success but he definitely stayed a year too long. With Clarke gone before the year started we had the whole league campaign to organise things and adjust our style of play in the forwards, result was 18 pts in two matches. It has definitely been a wasted year.  As stated in previous posts I am happy with the talent coming through but would definitely be keeping Geezer on board to instil the determination and will to win on the new crop coming through. Hope the new manager plays them! Great to see Kevin Dyas coming on but keeping Vernon and Toal on the bench was unforgiveable.

Geezer would be crazy to carry on for another year. He was on his knees when Derry broke away to score the winning point. I'm not saying it's his fault, but he is not fit to play the role of talisman for this team any more and no matter what his committment this is not going to improve at this stage. 36/37 is too old for County football.

I was at most of the National League games this year and the presence of Toal and Vernon yesterday would have changed nothing. Both of them have had opportunities in the league and in the games they played Armagh still struggled to put scores on the board. I'm sure these players will be present on successfull Armagh teams in the future. Maybe a different system will help them along with a different manager.

I think a good clean out is required and its probably a year overdue.

Players that I would think it important to stay on include:

Enda
Bellew
McGrane
McDonnell
M. O'Rourke

Sorry GPA, I didn't make myself clear, by keeping Geezer "on board" I meant on the management team.  However, your point about Toal and Vernon I would disagree with. Toal, especially, would have been a useful asset to have when we were on top and kicking all the wides. An accurate forward like him could well have got the score or two that would have taken us over the finish line.

If I was an Armagh supporter I think what would bug me most is the fact that this team (as stated on the Sunday Game last night) was a great team that didn't deliver on its potential.  Consistently up there for the best part of 10 years, one All Ireland isn't a good enough return.  Down supporters might slag them off, but as far as I remember '91 and '94 came out of nowhere - Down didn't have anything like the consistency of this Armagh side.

That's different Mackers and I would agree with that.

I get the impression that Toal failed to show the necessary committment / workrate to break into the team. I'm not a Harpsman and I've only seen him play a few McKenna Cup matches and the odd league game and its clear that he is a great talent. But this team is not about raw talent. If we were relying on talent alone there would have been no All-Ireland. Its about workrate and perhaps Kernan felt that it wasn't forthcoming from Toal.

This is my hunch and if it was right, then I have nothing but respect for Kernan's stance. Allied to that, his impact in the League wasn't that impressive.

But, it is a pity. When Armagh were winning the All-Ireland and playing better football more scores were forthcoming from half-forward and midfield. McEntee, McGrane, Toal, Loughran and McKeever were all scoring regularly. Stephen Kernan got the only scores from this zone yesterday. If Armagh are to compete in the future, they'll need players like Toal to step up to the mark.

Aritcle from the Sunday tibune on interview with Stephen Kernan;


Orchard's fresh bloom 
Kieran Shannon


A FEW days after Armagh returned from La Manga in May, probably the best wing back in hurling and probably the best wing back in football met up for a meal with their partners in a restaurant in Cork.

Sean Og O hAilpin and Aaron Kernan had been friends since O hAilpin's International Rules teammate Philip Loughran introduced them at the 2004 GPA awards. O hAilpin had just been honoured as the Hurler of the Year while Kernan was only a fringe player with the Armagh seniors, yet within moments O hAilpin was congratulating Kernan on his All Ireland under-21 success the previous month. The pair would spend most of the next three hours in each other's company; in Kernan, O hAilpin detected a kindred spirit. The morning after that year's All Ireland final, some of the Cork team were on their way from the bar to bed when O hAilpin shot past in his running shorts, on his way out for a run. A few weeks later Kernan trained with his club the afternoon after he'd won that under-21 All-Ireland. Winning for both of them wasn't an event but a lifestyle.

The night in Cork was enjoyable. Kernan had befriended the county's football goalkeeper Alan Quirke on the All-Star trip in Dubai and Alan's sister was Sean Og's girlfriend, so when Kernan and his girlfriend Marianne had a few days off after her exams and his pre-championship training camp, it was a chance to all meet up.

The following morning, at eight o'clock, O hAilpin and Kernan teamed up again, this time in the gym. First they cycled, then lifted some weights and then it was core, a series of exercises to strengthen the muscles around the stomach and groin. Kernan had been a keen advocate of core for over three years. O hAilpin though had been doing it ever since Ger Hartmann introduced him to its merits shortly after his car accident, and so showed Kernan some of Hartmann's more advanced manoeuvres that made them look like gymnasts on acid playing Twister.

It might have been nine in the morning and it might have been his holidays but Aaron Kernan's pursuit of excellence is exhaustive.

He's been friendly with Down's Martin Clarke ever since he rang to wish him well on the eve of the 2005 All Ireland minor final but that contact has been intensified in recent months as Kernan has sought tips on the diet and preparation Aussie Rules' latest phenomenon has been adhering to.

Martin McHugh has observed Kernan's capacity to improve. "When Aaron came along in 2005 and won Young Player of the Year, people still questioned his ability to defend. They can't question it now. The last day against Donegal, the amount of ball he swept up was incredible. The fact he has two feet, the way he's so comfortable on the ball, the way he's built up his body; he's very close to having everything. With [Seamus] Moynihan gone, I'd say he's now the best wing back in football."

For Kernan every setback and every victory has been an opportunity to learn. In McHugh's eyes Kernan was the man of the match in Crossmaglen's latest All Ireland club final replay win, yet Kernan himself was disappointed that two frees he took out of his hands were held up by the wind; since then he's practised hitting them off the ground to get more power and control.

In Ballybofey six weeks ago, Kernan was again deemed the game's outstanding player but the player himself felt he'd contributed to Armagh's downfall.

"There were times where I felt, 'God, I'm a wee bit tired here' and there's no way I should have been tired. The day after I was even more annoyed because I felt there was more I could have done. After their goal, I had a ball out on the wing and tried to hit a 40-yard pass to Geezer [Kieran McGeeney]. There were about 15 players between us. It was too hard a pass to try. All we needed was to hold the ball and get someone in a better position and I kicked it away. But again, it was a learning experience."

Everything is. Kernan grew up in the most football-obsessed household in the most football-obsessed town in Armagh but that held little weight in his late teens. In his last year at minor, he was only a sub with the county.

The following year he still couldn't get a game with Crossmaglen while his brother Stephen and Michael McNamee and John Murtagh could. Ronan Clarke, his old underage adversary from Pearse Ogs, had broken onto the county team and won an All Ireland.

"I was frustrated because I thought I should have been playing but maybe if I had got my chance then I wouldn't have been as determined to make it. If things had been handed more easily to me, if people could say, 'Oh, he's Joe Kernan's son, he has to play', then maybe I'd have started to think, 'Yeah, I'm always going to get on.' It just got to the stage where I'd stay behind after training every night and practise my shooting or passing or whatever."

The following May Kernan made his championship debut with Cross. That November he was their player of the year and called up to the county senior panel. Now he's one of the mainstays of that panel. This past two seasons Armagh have needed last-minute scores from Stevie McDonnell to avoid relegation but in each of those games it was Kernan who kicked the point previous to McDonnell's interventions.

His involvement in this year's face-off against Westmeath was particularly telling.

The previous Sunday Kernan had won an All Ireland club title. It was everything he had ever dreamed about, sharing the moment with his brothers and seeing old Cross heroes like Gary McShane and Joe Fitzpatrick run onto the field to hug him seven years after he'd sprinted onto Croke Park as a kid to embrace them, yet the following morning Kernan was working out in the room his father converted into a gym over the winter.

That night he had a couple of drinks but on the Tuesday he was back training with Armagh.

"It was no big deal. To be honest, I couldn't wait. I didn't want to come back playing Division Three football next year and it wouldn't be right to drink my head off and expect to play for Armagh. When you come onto a team with leaders like McGeeney and [Paul] McGrane and Enda [McNulty], you know no other way."

He cannot say enough about those men.

About their legacy ("We're allowed to play in Croke Park now; there's no curse saying Armagh can't win there, that Armagh can't win All Irelands"), their dedication, their knowledge of the game. When the team went away to Dublin for a recent training camp, Kernan made a point of sharing the same car as McNulty to pick up some more nuggets on how to tackle.

McGeeney is the same, always there to show him how to get the hand in and how to get it quickly out to stop forwards grabbing onto it and win the easy free. They're willing to take advice too. At least on the training ground. On match day? "You do as Kieran tells you really. That's basically it."

Last November Kernan broke his arm when he was hit by a late challenge as he was kicking the ball. It ruled him out of the rest of Crossmaglen's Ulster club campaign and he couldn't work for a few weeks in the estate agency firm he's taken over from his father.

He couldn't drive to viewings, couldn't type.

Yet the Wednesday after breaking that arm, he was in the family gym, doing some core.

Every day he works out.

"It's no big deal, " he shrugs. "I enjoy it, like.

You nearly have it in your head that you're a professional so doing something about it keeps you happy."

Cross and Armagh might mean he plays all-year round but he maintains people who truly love the game don't get burned out. "If you take care of yourself, you can play most of the year. I feel better now than I did before the club final or the Donegal game. People talk about all the games we played in 2005, that our run in league and Ulster cost us the All Ireland, but how many games had we from May to September? Something like 10.

In Aussie Rules they play 22 games in 22 weeks."

He hopes to be playing week in, week out himself now. He's apprehensive about today, the fact it's Derry ("They kicked the shit clean out of us in the league this past two years") and Paddy Bradley ("An unreal footballer"), but if Armagh survive Clones, he thinks they can go on a run that will take them all the way to September. In Ballybofey they learned that they must keep playing aggressively to the final whistle, that Paul McGrane doesn't just roar "Next score" for the sake of it, that they must drive on like Kilkenny and the All Blacks when they have their opponents by the throat, but above all, they learned they still have it.

"Anyone who says we weren't pushed about winning another Ulster wasn't in our dressing room after the game. It was the first time a few of us had ever lost in Ulster and we were gutted. But Joe came in and said, 'Boys, we'll be okay. You played well.' Even out on the field, Brendan Devenney said to me, 'The better team got beat today.'" Win or lose, Aaron Kernan was going to push on. He always will, come what may on any given Sunday.

GPA I saw McGeeney on the ground, I don't think it was down to tiredness, I think he knew it was going over the bar.

Aaron Kernan seems very down to Earth in that article, would still like to see him out of defense though.

Look, from playing football I know that sometimes things happen on the pitch that you can explain. But on the line it looks awful. So perhaps he was further from the action than I thought, but it looked bad.

He was on his knees after sliding in for the ball. The ball broke for a Derry man who was subsequntly surrounded by Armagh men. When it came out of the melee, maybe 5-10 seconds later, Geezer was still on his knees. That ball was passed out to Devin who pointed. It was not at all Geezeresque.

I don't care whether it was tiredness or hopelessness. If anything the latter is much, much worse.

PS, had Stephen Kernan been on his knees in the same situation.....???

Armagh were a great team and provided great joy to their supporters and the GAA in general over the last 10 years, and today is no day for kicking the wounded dog. 

They should have added a second All Ireland to their great win in 2002 and history will show that dispite there numerous Ulster titles it will be the All ireland that they will be remembered by. I stood and applauded them on that great day in 02 even though I hate losing, but to see the sheer joy it meant to them to win a first ever title will remain with me for many a long day. There was an old fellow from Armagh sitting next to me in the upper Cusack that day and he could not get down on the field for the celebrations and we just stood and chatted about football and what the win meant to him, there were tears in his eyes and no matter how many All Irelands we win you could not replicate his feelings.

However I think they have been on the wane since 2003. Losing to Tyrone in that final took the heart out of them. They had become very predictable in recent times and i wrote here after last year when Kerry beat them that I thought there should have been changes made to management and to some of the personal. There is no doubt that the likes of McGeeney, McNulty, Bellew, McGrane, McConville and the likes were great servants to Armagh football but I think their legs have gone. The McEntees probably pulled out at the right time after the club final.

Big Joe has been loyal to his players and they to him, but like Kerry at the end of the 80's there were no real new faces coming through and it just got stale.  Armagh need a new structure and it is probably time for Joe to hang up the runners up plaque from 1977 on his sitting room wall again.

They need a clean sweep too of those older players and bring on the minors and U21 players of recent times, I think too, and its a personal feeling, that the success of Crossmaglen has mitigated against new players breaking through and I think if any new management can cast their nets wider there has to be players available to fill the void. Its time for the other clubs in Armagh to stand up and put an end to Cross's dominance and that in itself may provide the dam burst for alot of club players to make the break through at county level.

I think even the Armagh supporters have become either tired or complacent with the whole setup and you have seen dwindling crowds over the last couple of seasons where once they had full houses at all games.

Anyway well done to Armagh for their successes over the last decade and best wishes for the future, I think they will be back shortly in some form.

From an Armagh point of view this defeat could be more beneficial than people realise.  As has been stated by some posters tehre is the same voice syndrome, which no matter who the same voice is it can cause a team to become stagnant and bereft of ideas and motivation.

The players themselves, outside of getting older and slower, have also probably lost the edge.  The mental fatigue of having to pursue the dream year in year out is very wearing on the mind and body and it gives eventually.  No matter how focused you may think you are, in the tight game, when you are one point down, and the player is running away from you, your legs go mentally more so than physically the longer you have been doing it.  McGeeney  on his knees was not a physical thing, it was a realsiation that he simply did not have it anymore.

New faces, new tactics, new emphasis on youth, less opportunities for people to make outlandish claims about nepotism, that is what is needed.  

Also, now is a time for supporters to re-evaluate what they expect from the team.  For too long supporters have demanded that the All Ireland be there that year.  Armagh have had a very consistently god team this last ten years but remember we are not the stronghold of success that we would like to believe we are.  It is OK to demand success when you are a Kerry, a Dublin, a Cork or a Kilkenny, but Armagh are not a patch on any of these counties.  Much has been done to change that but supporters should realise that success is not easy to attain and mistakes will be made by players and management along the way to achieving success.  For some perspective on Armagh's success from 1890 to 1996 Armagh won 7 Ulster Senior Championships, from 1997 to now they won 6, 1 AI, 1 National League.

Well done to players and management over that period and hopefully recent under 21 success can be transferred on.

Quote from: Kerry Mike on July 09, 2007, 12:29:03 PM
Armagh were a great team and provided great joy to their supporters and the GAA in general over the last 10 years, and today is no day for kicking the wounded dog. 

They should have added a second All Ireland to their great win in 2002 and history will show that dispite there numerous Ulster titles it will be the All ireland that they will be remembered by. I stood and applauded them on that great day in 02 even though I hate losing, but to see the sheer joy it meant to them to win a first ever title will remain with me for many a long day. There was an old fellow from Armagh sitting next to me in the upper Cusack that day and he could not get down on the field for the celebrations and we just stood and chatted about football and what the win meant to him, there were tears in his eyes and no matter how many All Irelands we win you could not replicate his feelings.

However I think they have been on the wane since 2003. Losing to Tyrone in that final took the heart out of them. They had become very predictable in recent times and i wrote here after last year when Kerry beat them that I thought there should have been changes made to management and to some of the personal. There is no doubt that the likes of McGeeney, McNulty, Bellew, McGrane, McConville and the likes were great servants to Armagh football but I think their legs have gone. The McEntees probably pulled out at the right time after the club final.

Big Joe has been loyal to his players and they to him, but like Kerry at the end of the 80's there were no real new faces coming through and it just got stale.  Armagh need a new structure and it is probably time for Joe to hang up the runners up plaque from 1977 on his sitting room wall again.

They need a clean sweep too of those older players and bring on the minors and U21 players of recent times, I think too, and its a personal feeling, that the success of Crossmaglen has mitigated against new players breaking through and I think if any new management can cast their nets wider there has to be players available to fill the void. Its time for the other clubs in Armagh to stand up and put an end to Cross's dominance and that in itself may provide the dam burst for alot of club players to make the break through at county level.

I think even the Armagh supporters have become either tired or complacent with the whole setup and you have seen dwindling crowds over the last couple of seasons where once they had full houses at all games.

Anyway well done to Armagh for their successes over the last decade and best wishes for the future, I think they will be back shortly in some form.

Well said Mike, there are plenty of players to replace the old heads, and while JK has took us a long way i feel its time to freshen things up.
They have given us great days like we only dreamed off in the bad old days. If there is a clear out and change in management i think we will be knocking on the door in 2008.

Very generous post there KM and no less than I would have expected.

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some kind of change now in mgt with some of the senior players quitting. I don't know how any team is going to challenge Cross' dominance though in Armagh. It is definitely unhealthy, but I just can't see that the quality is there anywhere else in the county.

The fact that Madden reached a senior county final a number of years ago says something. Had Dromintee won one of their finals things might be different, but I fear that they are now going backwards. The Harps should have pushed on after their good minor team, and so should the Ogs. But neither did...

Some team needs to..

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 09, 2007, 12:38:36 PM
From an Armagh point of view this defeat could be more beneficial than people realise.  

For some perspective on Armagh's success from 1890 to 1996 Armagh won 7 Ulster Senior Championships, from 1997 to now they won 6, 1 AI, 1 National League.

Well done to players and management over that period and hopefully recent under 21 success can be transferred on.

This gives Armagh a chance to rebuild. Ironically Paul Kernan could be part of the setup next year, as could David McKenna, and Joe would have been lambasted (as Paddy Heaney might say) for bringing them in. The whingers must realise that this was Armagh's last chance with this team and setup to challenge for an All Ireland, and that Joe had to persist with the tried and tested for this year.

As for the Stephen Kernan furore, I think he showed adequately yesterday why Joe took a chance on him.

QuoteSo on your witch hunt it doesn't matter, just that he was on his knees?

Anyhow, a lot of rubbish being written here. Armagh prob need a fresh approach, but no doubt they will be back again next year.

It's not a witch hunt Mid-Louth. If you read my post, you'll see that I'm not "out to get" McGeeney. He has been a fantastic servant to Armagh football. The best ever. I also qualified my post by saying that sometimes things look worse from the line than they actually are.

Also, I didn't think he should have come back this year until I seen how he played in the International Rules last year and when he came on against Derry in the league he showed that he still "had it".

But, I do feel that it was a stark sign for himself and the team. Kieran is 36 or so. He and the rest of this Armagh team have been in the later stages of the championship since 1999. That is crazy committment. I play for an intermediate club and find myself, that I struggle to get through one season and that sometimes the end of the season can't come quickly enough no matter how well we are doing.

I marvel at the character of McGrane and McGeeney. It seems that it never became a chore to them. As BC said, it looks like it eventually caught up with Kieran yesterday. Its a pity, but I think every player that plays as long as he does, eventually has a moment like that. Unfortunately, it was very uncharacteristic of the Geezer everyone admires.

If indeed it is the end of the road for a lot of the 'aul hands' on this Armagh team then Football will be the loser. Contrary to what Jack O'Connor might think this team did change football as we know it. They took the inter-county footballer into the 21st century with their professional approach to training and nutrition.

These guys put themselves in a position to achieve more in their careers than some players that had more talent.

I reckon if they had won another All-Ireland McGeeney and co would have retired at the top a la Canavan.

I have to admit that I feel that Armagh's unshakable belief in their ability to win games came back to haunt them a few times, particularly in the two games this year and the game against Tyrone (05) and Fermanagh (04). They had all of these games there for the taking but didn't go for the kill. Watching these games it seems like they felt they could grind out a narrow win instead of finishing the other team off. It wasn't as if they didn't have the firepower.

Having said that it would be unfair not to mention the finest hours of this team in particular the 02 final, the qualifier against Dublin the following year and their demolition of Donegal in 2004.

As a few other posters here have said, things need freshening up with players, management and tactics. There's no need for witchhunts or personal attacks on certain players, but a dose of reality is needed all the same.  The tactics under the present management, while bringing a good deal of success, haven't changed much over the years and teams have long since cottoned on.  When you have ball winners of the calibre of Clarke and McDonnell you will always win a fair percentage of the long ball - but with Clarke out this year, Armagh were only firing on one cylinder, and that was never going to get us too far.  New ideas are needed but i would seriously doubt if Joe can provide them and furthermore get the players to believe.   We have some really good young talent in the side and on the panel and with the right coaching and management i don't think any of those lads will let themselves or the county down. The likes of Dyas, Toner, Lavery, Donaghy have all shown great potential over the 2 matches.  I just think it's a great shame that a couple more didn't get to sample some championship action this year and will now have to wait another year at least to make their debut.

This will be the first year since 1999 that Armagh have not made Croke Park and August in the championship. That level of consistency is a fantastic indictment of the contribution of all the management teams and players involved over the period. They have set the benchmark now for future Armagh teams and young players to aspire to, and that is probably their greatest achievement.

Despite the gloom felt by Armagh supporters today it should be borne in mind that Armagh football is in a far better state than it was 10 years ago.  The success at senior level has rippled down to underage level, where the interest in gaelic games in the county is probably at an all time high, with good structures and coaching now in place for underage development.  It's no coincidence that in the past 3 years Armagh have won 3 Ulsters and 1 AI at various underage grades.  Armagh teams of the future may not be winning silverware every year, but they will be competing for it on a regular basis.

 

Its back to the road bowls for me. And perhaps try and get my handicap down.

I for one would rather see people debate players and tactics rather than just sit back and go "well done lads, great journey." Every fan in Armagh knows exactly what this group has given us since 1999, and that respect is held by every Armagh fan. I am an anti-Joe man but even the most biased blinkers could not argue that he worked wonders for us in 2002.

Thank you lads but success breeds success, and I think it is a sign of the change in Armagh GAA that most are not prepared to sit back and wait twenty years for another surge at glory and instead expect Armagh to remain at the top.

To be fair Derry nor Doneagal had the guts of ten years being consiered contenders.

QuoteI said it on the old board, but I always felt Armagh people didnt celebrate their success in 2002 enough. It was as if it was just the start of something big. 3 in a row. It was actually said in front of me in a pub one night that Armagh would win 3 in a row, because "the Down barstewards" had never won 3 in a row, well we still havent managed 3 in a row, but we still have more than you.

What are you blithering on about, man?  You obviously weren't around Armagh much over that winter? So you met one eejit in a pub who slabbered about winning 3 in a row - big deal.

It is difficult to understand the criticism of Stephen Kernan. He scored two excellent points yesterday. For the first point, he created loads of space for himself by sidestepping the Derry defender. The problem for Armagh was that they couldn't get enough space to shoot, so any player like Stephen who can create space like this is certainly worth his place on the team. The second point was also a great effort from distance.

Armagh only scored nine points in total and Stephen scored two of the best of them, so what's the problem? He is only a new member of the championship team, so what do people expect from him ? Do they expect him to score five or six points? This year Armagh have needed scoring forwards, but when a fellah like Stephen comes along and scores a few great points, some supporters slag him off. He plays in the half forward line so two points in a game is a very good return from a half forward.

Supporters are meant to get behind the team and management. If everyone roared Stephen on and encouraged him and built up his confidence, I'm certain that he would score even more. Remember he comes from very good stock, his father was a superb forward and Aaron is also excellent. Stephen was brilliant during the Under 21 All Ireland and Peter Rafferty had great faith in him.

And anyway, he's obviously made of stern stuff because he's stood up against any of the criticism which he has received and proved his doubters wrong with two great scores yesterday. Fair play to you Stephen.   

QuoteArmagh only scored nine points in total and Stephen scored two of the best of them, so what's the problem?

You have to look at any one player's overall contribution to the team over the 70 mins, not just the fact that he contributes 1 or 2 points on the scoreboard.  The Derry half back line caused us a lot of problems going forward, without a hand placed on them. This wasn't all down to Stephen though.

Armawman, 6 posts and three of them have been the same.

QuoteI said it on the old board, but I always felt Armagh people didnt celebrate their success in 2002 enough

I spend many's a day / night in Armagh in 02/03 and believe me, they celebrated it enough!

Of course youse Tyrone bastards got a more sustained celebration.

The inevitable 'what now?' after a championship loss. It happens to 30 teams each year as only one can win it's last game each year.
Fail to win that last game then you get written off for ever more, never to be heard from again. The team gets ridiculed from outside and gets ravaged from within. It's the Gaa way. Past successes count for nothing anymore. Yet Kerry 2001 & 2003, Armagh 2001, Cork Hurlers 2002 all teams who were wrote off after bad defeats from which they were supposed to never to be seen again yet all went on the following year to great success.
Change has to happen for sure but Armagh can be back eating from the top table again next year. Clarke, Mallon, Toal (in his prime in '05) and the bould Francie were all massive losses. Unfortunately Geezer (whose legs may finally have given out) didn't get to leave the stage as he should (ala the Pony last year) but McGeeney should be remembered for what he was, a player who left it all out on the pitch. Great man, great team, great future. Ard Mhaca Abu.

Quote from: SuperDooperCooper on July 09, 2007, 03:27:54 PM
The inevitable 'what now?' after a championship loss. It happens to 30 teams each year as only one can win it's last game each year.
Fail to win that last game then you get written off for ever more, never to be heard from again. The team gets ridiculed from outside and gets ravaged from within. It's the Gaa way. Past successes count for nothing anymore. Yet Kerry 2001 & 2003, Armagh 2001, Cork Hurlers 2002 all teams who were wrote off after bad defeats from which they were supposed to never to be seen again yet all went on the following year to great success.
Change has to happen for sure but Armagh can be back eating from the top table again next year. Clarke, Mallon, Toal (in his prime in '05) and the bould Francie were all massive losses. Unfortunately Geezer (whose legs way finally have given out) didn't get to leave the stage as he should (ala the Pony last year) but McGeeney should be remembered for what he was, a player who left it all out on the pitch. Great man, great team, great future. Ard Mhaca Abu.

thanks

Why are all the Kerry posters being so nice ???
Maybe you know the All Ireland is NOW yours to lose ;)

QuoteWhy are all the Kerry posters being so nice

yerra tis in our nature to be nice to the down trodden, but MikeSheehy2 will probably change that later on when he logs on!!!

QuoteMaybe you know the All Ireland is NOW yours to lose

I suppose t'would be arrogant of us to state, 'tis always been the case...

Quote from: full back on July 09, 2007, 03:37:11 PM
Why are all the Kerry posters being so nice ???
Maybe you know the All Ireland is NOW yours to lose ;)

ha ha not true!

couldnt believe my eyes when i saw the armagh result yesterday, i would have put my house on them. people forget that in last years semi final they were only 2 points down with 2 minutes to go before giving away the crucial goal. thought this year would be a great chance for them as it was really the last throw of the dice one way or the other and the back door would be a great route for them to give it a go. sorry that it was not to be tho. like km i will always remember their ai win, it was a great day to be in croke park (once i got over the fact that kerry could not score a point in the last eleven minutes to level it up! (and if only mcconville HAD scored that penalty)).. they brought great glamour, crowds and no little bite to football this past decade and i for one hope we havent seen the last of them...

Cheers lads - those are generous words and much appreciated!  :)

I would like to add my appreciation to our Kerry friends along with Rufus, in my opinion you have always displayed a degree of class that I have tried to emulate!

All this niceness is making us feel soft and somehow dirty, Sheehy where are you when your county needs you?

You show true class when you can take praise in your stride Mike!

Lads, can we be that sure this is genuine? If Paddy Heaney is to believed this is the typical type of underhand ruse pulled by Kerry ones. Give plenty of praise to your face then head for the kingdom sniggering at our demise. They can't be trusted.

1. Hearty
2. Mallon
3. Toner/Moriarty
4. Donaghy
5.Kernan
6. McKeever
7. Dyas
8. Lavery
9. Vernon
10. Liam O'Hare
11. Mallon
12. Martin O'Rourke
13. McDonnell
14. Clarke
15. Toal/Foker/ Michael O'Rourke whichever one shows best through the league.

What do people think of this potential team for next year?

I think the full back line would be destroyed.  Midfield wouldn't fill me full of confidence but we've to start somewhere.   
Not convinced about Liam O'Hare either though he should get a chance at least. 

What would the average age be of that team Tevez, 25? Maybe the future is not so dull after all.

We don't know who's going to be around next year but assuming the older players go then maybe -

1.McKinney (Hearty's two bad kickouts in the Derry game were the final straw for me!)
2. Mallon
3. Donaghy
4. Duffy
5.Kernan
6. McKeever
7. Dyas
8. Lavery
9. Toner
10. Vernon
11. Mallon/Kernan
12. Martin O'Rourke
13. McDonnell
14. Clarke
15. Toal/Forker/O'Rourke

I'd have faith in a new midfield pairing of Toner and Lavery. There's also the likes of the young Cross lad McKenna to come in. If so, that could free up Toner to slip into full back.  Big positions to fill in full back, CHB and CHF. Brian Mallon's small for CHF but there's not a lot of options here!  Maybe Toal could be tried out here as well - he's a very accurate passer. A couple of years back it looked like McKeever would be the long term answer at CHB but he seems more comfortable on the wing - or could be a very good corner back. Vernon has played CHB at underage but he would need to work a lot at his defensive game to play here at senior.  Toal/Forker/O'Rourke are unknown quantities in the forward line. Out of that 3 though Toal would be the best option to bring out to the half forward line if the management want to stick with 2 man ff line. Another option in there would be the likes of Malachy Mackin as a target man for the others to feed off. Gareth Swift is another lad i had hoped could develop this role (maybe he could yet). There's a lot more mobility and speed in that line up but what we gain in pace we lose in the physical stakes. Though the likes of Donaghy, Toner, Lavery, Vernon, McKeever, Martin O'Rourke aren't exactly lacking in that dept. 

QuoteAnother option in there would be the likes of Malachy Mackin as a target man for the others to feed off.

*head in hands* no no no no no

:D

I see where you're coming from Pints, but it's just another option.  The one time he was played there (against Donegal in 2005) he did ok. 

Mal mackin should not be on the county panel, he is a good club player and that's about it.
He's not even a good club full forward though and anytime he's played against the Bridge I want him to go into full forward where he normally doesn't get two kicks of the ball.  There is no way in hell he'd be a county full forward, we'd be better with a donkey.

The way Swift seems to be playing for the Harps and judging by how he played against us I hope he gets a recall.

Quote from: Kerry Mike on July 09, 2007, 07:43:19 PM
All this niceness is making us feel soft and somehow dirty, Sheehy where are you when your county needs you?

Summer school me thinks KM, the leaving cert may have gone against him :D

1. Mc Kinney
2. Mallon
3. Bellew
4. Donaghy
5. Duffy
6. Vernon
7. Dyas
8. Lavery
9. D mc Kenna
10. A kernan
11. Mallon
12. Martin O'Rourke
13. McDonnell
14. Clarke
15. Toal


The average age of that team then being about 24, shud be given a good run of games together in the league, not this throwing a man on for 20 mins here  iand there.

Hank, I really like the look of your team from the half back line up and agree with the fact they need to be given time to bed in over the league campaign next year. Either Aaron Kernan or Charlie Vernon have to be given a half forward slot as we have a shortage in this line and a surplus of good half backs. Your full back line is suspect, I don't think Francie will be back if Joe goes so we'll have to plan without him, so I would slot Kieran Toner and Ciaran McKeever in the full back line. Amazed that they weren't on in the first place!!!

Armagh will bring in a few new faces from under 21s etc - a few will retire and Armagh will carry on - they won't become a bad team overnight - but one thing for sure - they need to find a scoring forward or two and concentrate less on defence.

Orangeman,
They concentrate on defence because Joe knows that they aren't scoring more than 9 times in a game.

It's been like this throughout the league. In the league they played 7 games and scored 5-62.

That's less than an average of 10 scores per game. They stayed up because they only conceded two goals. Incidentally one of them was a clanger from McKinney just like Hearty's against Donegal.

from - http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/gaa_results_footballleague.html

10 scores against Kildare
10 scores against Louth
8 against Galway
9 scores against Derry
10 scores against Down
8 scores against Laois
12 scores against Westmeath

Incidentally, in the two drawn games and the Ulster Final last year all they could muster was about 10 scores.

Eamonn Coleman once said that to win most Championship games you need to score about 12 times. I think he was dead right.

The average age is 24, 25. I would have no problem with McKinney coming in for hearty, as he is a very good goalkeeper. Francie Bellew will not play for Armagh again, his injury was very bad, and he will be lucky if he plays for cross again.
On Liam O'hare, one thing Armagh need in the half forward line is pace, and there is noone in Armagh that has as much oace as O'Hare. Look at the difference he has made to Cullyhanna this year. He has won McCrory with St Pats (Man of the match in final ahead of Clarke and Cavanagh) he has been captain of st mary's sigerson team. He deserves chance.
Other players that should be brought into squad should be McKenna, Paul Kernan Gareth Smith, Paul Courtney and Kevin O'Rourke

Are you Liam O'hare tevez?  ::)

QuoteWhy are all the Kerry posters being so nice

Quoteyerra tis in our nature to be nice to the down trodden, but MikeSheehy2 will probably change that later on when he logs on!!!

QuoteAll this niceness is making us feel soft and somehow dirty, Sheehy where are you when your county needs you?

The minimum you can do for an opponent is to allow them dignity in the immediate aftermath of defeat. Thats something that has been lost in the last few years where every defeat is treated as an indication of some fatal flaw in that Countys character or some inherent superiority in the victors genes.

Dont get me wrong. Armaghs defeat will figure in this neverending slagging about who is better, top 3, best team in Ulster, Kerrys "easy" ride etc, etc but now is just not the time.

I am not Liam O'Hare , but he should get a chance. What do the rest of you think?

Despite what some of the posters on here not lucky enough to be from Armagh believe,not all Armagh fans think the GAA was invented in 2002!
Whatever else the future holds for us I genuinely hope it doesnt hold a return to the days before the 2 Brians.It's not that long ago that our summers consisted of one game in the championship.Given how far the likes of Down/Cavan/Offaly have fallen I dread to think that we might go the same way.
As someone who watches a fair few games throughout the year I have to say i do have one worry as far as we are concerned.Where are the new forwards? The men to stand up and replace Oisisn,John Mac,Paddy,Diarmuid? If they are about they've been keeping a very low profile.On this years U21 panel only young Forker stood out as a real dangerous forward.
Here's praying that there's a whole squad of talented forwards out there just waiting for their chance
   

agree with you Armaghtothe bone. Forker really stood out for the u21 . Ronan Clarke is still young enough .Gradual change maybe the way to go .Yet it will to be hard to find Leaders like McGeanny and McGrane

I think what really sticks in the throats of Kernan, McGeeney etc is the second All-Ireland dream. One of the boys on RTE on Sunday night said that it annoys them to the point of distraction. Those lads have a decision to make now, although I'm sure it's the same one they've faced since 2004 - either to have yet another shot or be happy with what they've achieved. I'm sure it's mighty hard to walk away, especially as they've been trying for 5 years for that second one and been close on 2 occasions. Kerry, Tyrone, Meath and Galway have all become at least 2-time winners in the last decade or so - Armagh is the only one that sticks out.

Kernan has made such an issue of the second one (alright, maybe he said it once!) that I think he'd find it hard to sleep at night unless he stepped down as manager but still had an input.

As most posters have indicated, there's a good chance that Sunday's defeat will herald the end of an era as such. I've always thought that Joe was the man for the job but at this stage, perhaps some new ideas wouldn't do any harm. I suppose the worst part is the reality that that second All Ireland probably won't now happen for this team. Most likely we'll go down as the best team of the last 30 years only to win 1 All Ireland but I dont think thats what anybody wanted.

The liklehood is that mcNulty, McGrane, McGeeney and Marsden will call it quits. On Sunday I really thought that the legs went for McGrane. There were a couple of occasions when Derry came out of midfield at pace and McGrane simply wasn't able to keep with them. It was sorta sad to see from somebody whose been one of the top 3, if not the best, midfielder in the country for the past decade. I think to some extent these lads have given all to Armagh that they possibly can and we should be grateful for all their effort.

Certainly we have a good crop of young players coming through, but I have feeling they are generally good players rather than great players and that the standard slipping off the radar was higher than what's coming in. Hopefuly I'm wrong but although I don't foresee us failing to be competitive in Ulster in the next few years, I think expectations will need to lowered a bit.

On Liam O'Hare, he's an excellent club footballer, no one whose seen him play regularly can deny that and I've no doubt that he's a more talented footballer than many on the current squad. He deserve a chance to play 3 or 4 league matches at Centre Half forward or at least int he half forward line. If he performs as he can, Armagh will have a great asset, if not, at least there can be no complaints.

Against Donegal, albeit  after a slow start, Mc Grane put on an exhibition, I thought !

Next year needs to be about building for the future, and putting the onus on bringing on the younger players.  Having said that, to lose all of McGeeney, McConville, Marsden, Bellew, McGrane, McConville and McNulty in one go would leave a big hole in terms of experience - and finding another 7 or so new squad members won't be easy. The problem for Armagh now is that these players have been the spine of the team and have been automatic starters for so long.  Ideally i'd like to see some of these players stay on and be involved but not necessarily as automatic starters or for the full 70 mins. The likes of McGrane could come on and still do a job at midfield, the way Kevin Walsh used to for Galway. It's hard to say whether any of these players would have the appetite to come back for another year and be happy with any benchtime though.

I don;t think Mc Grane or any of those you mentioned would take too kindly to being asked to come on and do a job for 10 - 20 mins - they should retire gracefully rather than suffer that  -

QuoteI don;t think Mc Grane or any of those you mentioned would take too kindly to being asked to come on and do a job for 10 - 20 mins - they should retire gracefully rather than suffer that

Peter Canavan wasn't too proud to do this, and people thought better of him for it. Those partial contributions may still be difference between Tyrone winning and losing. That said there is a vast commitment to training etc required and the lads might just want to hang up their boots, which they should do with our thanks.

There's one thought that has struck me - I wonder in the years from 89 to 95, were there people in Meath having these types of conversations about Sean Boylan. In that case, it turned out that the old man was the right man to build the new team.

Peter was injured and did play full matches when fit -

I don't wish to see Joe step down, but I feel it is a good time for him to move up.

We may lose some of the older hands but hopefully not as many as some posters believe. Players such as Oisin and Paul McG would be invaluable to have on the bench until the last 15 mins. I don't feel that they would be too proud to be a sub if they believed it was in the best interests of Armagh. They will recognise that they can't go on full tilt forever and younger players need to come through - who better to help them with that huge step up to Championship footy?

The local talk at the start of the year was that John Raff came on board to take over from Joe at the end of this season - with few wins in the League and none in the Championship that does not look too promising a propisition now. I would firmly be in the camp that believes Paul Grimley is the best man for the job when Joe moves, perhaps with Peter Rafferty and Geezer in the fold. A hugely difficult task would be to replace John Mc Cluskey should he move on!

Whatever happens, I think Armagh would be much poorer if they were to lose Joe's experience altogether - the first Director of Football in GAA terms would be appropriate - we can't afford to start again with a new manager who has to learn the inter-county game from scratch or it definitely will be "What now for Armagh ?"

Datsun, you make some fine points there - an excellent idea to hold on to Joe by the way !

im sure McGeeney would like another chapter to put in his biography he is releasing next year

what would this director of football do exactly. u can only have one manager.

by the way anyone got a spare ticket for croke park on sun

Can anyone of you record the Armagh v Derry match for me on DVD? If possible, I will pay you for the DVD and postage costs.  Setanta Ireland are showing the entire match. Thanks

Setanta Schedule
Fri 13 July at 9:40pm GAA All-Ireland SFC Qualifier
Coverage of the Football Championship qualifier between Ulster rivals Armagh and Derry, hoping to avoid an early end to their 2007 campaign.

From today's Gaelic Life, and hits the nail I'd say...


Armagh gave everything they had to lift a
second Sam but a lack of firepower cost them

The man with an opinion on everything...

JOE BROLLY
July 13, 2007 | Gaelic Life

IN the finale of 'Unforgiven' the fast drawing sheriff (Gene Hackman) has been shot and winged by the avenging assassin (Clint Eastwood). It wasn't a fair fight. The assassin walked into the bar and mowed him with a shot gun. As he lies there helpless on the floor of the saloon, in a pool of his own blood, we hear the strike of the spurs on the wood floor as Eastwood bears down on him. He bends over the stricken man, cocks his six shooter and points it in his face. "I don't deserve this," says Hackman. "Deserve's got nothing to do with it," says the killer as he sends him to his tomb.

I have heard it said often in the course of the past week that Armagh deserve more than one All-Ireland. Each time I have thought of those words. Their one-point defeat by Derry last week brought the curtain down on the long search for a second All-Ireland we can only imagine the massive effort expended in that time by players and management.

Kieran McGeeney told me recently he had cut his training this year from three times daily to twice a day. Think of the image consultants, the psychologists, the guest trainers, the visits to rugby training camps in England, the will to win of the players. Think of trainer John McCloskey traveling the globe to pilfer the best ideas in sport from sources as diverse as the Chelsea soccer team and the San Antonio Spurs basketballers. Think also of their obsessive, talismanic manager. Yet they didn't get there, and their remarkable crusade is finally over.

The one-point defeat to Derry at Clones completes the circle, a fitting end after all since their journey began with us in Clones in 1999. The previous year we had toyed with them in the semifinal on our way to the Ulster title. At the final whistle Kieran McGeeney slumped disconsolately to his hunkers. One of my team-mates tousled his hair and
uttered the immortal words: "That's the end of you boys." As it turned out, nothing could be further from the truth. The following year they ran us close in a league play-off in Celtic Park.

When we duly met them again in that year's Ulster semi-final we were confident we would beat them. As the clock ran down on atitanic battle the teams were level. One of the Armagh forwards went to ground. We surrounded him without fouling. The referee thought otherwise and Oisin Mc-Conville nailed the long free. Ilike to think that the free not given to Armagh at a similar stage in last week's proceedings (by the man with the red nose and large hat) was reparation for that earlier error. The problem with this Armagh team, what ultimately held them back at the highest level, was that they couldn't score enough. They would almost always prevail in a war of attrition, but sometimes lost them because they couldn't score freely enough. In that seven year period they lost only one replay, against Kerry in 2000 semi-final when they still weren't fully formed. But they couldn't shaketeams off. Where Tyrone would come out and blow teams away Armagh toiled to get the same job done. Tyrone pulverised Fermanagh
in Croke Park in 2003.

The following year Armagh couldn't do the same job, managing a measly 11 points and losing by the minimum. In 2002 Kerry were beaten by a point. Tyrone took the same Kerry team out by the roots in 2003 holding them to five points and winning by seven. Armagh by contrast depended on massive defensive effort to squeeze through, winning a series of big championship games by a point (1999 v Derry, 2000 v Derry, 2002 final v Kerry, etc) by the same token they lost nearly all of their bigger games by point or two when they had posted very low tallies themselves. Last year their 1-13 simply wasn't enough against Kerry's 3-15.

This year they played two big games. In the first they played Donegal off the park, but managed to score only 1-8, losing by a point. Against us last week, they scored a paltry 0-9, again losing by a point. They were a remarkable team and have had a massive impact on the Gaelic football scene over the last decade. But the truth is they didn't win another All-Ireland because they were not good enough. "Deserve'sgot nothing to do with it".

Can't disagree with Brolly's points.  The lack of scoring power has cost us greatly at the highest level stretching back to 1999. The one year that we had 5-6 forwards getting on the scoresheet we won the all-Ireland. The full forward line have been guilty of squandering chances in certain games, but whether it was tactics or just the personnel themselves, the lack of scores from the half fowards was the big problem.  Generally teams with ambitions of winning all-irelands need 4-5 scoring forwards from the 6.

Brolly's main point is valid, Armagh have never allowed another team score a large score, with the exception of gifting Kerry a goal last year. But we have often failed to score well at the other end. However, like a good barrister, Brolly uses the evidence selectively to support his argument. Comparing Tyrone v Fermanagh 03 and Armagh v Fermanagh 04 is about as useful as comparing Armagh v Laois 05 and Tyrone v Laois 06. We scored pretty freely in 04 against Donegal and some of our problems against Tyrone 05 and Kerry 06 were defensive failings.

Kernan's reign got off to a good start with Ronan Clarke coming on board, finding another class forward would do a lot to keep us going.

Dear me Joe, at least get the facts right.It was Cathal O'Rourke who slotted the free over to equalise and Marsden who scored the winner from open play.Never let the facts get in the way of a good story!!
To be fair i think Joe has a fairly blinkered view of our recent past.
In 1999 we scored 3 12 against Down in the Ulster Final.We were 6 points down in as many minutes against Kerry in the drawn semi in 2000 and were level by half time.
We blew laois away in a Quarter Final and Donegal in at least one Ulster Final.We had 4 or 5 to spare against the Dubs in 03.On our day we scored as well as anyone.
The reasons we do'nt have 2 All Irelands
1999  We depended on 2 forwards.In the All Ireland semi that year v Meath Oisin could'nt buy a score.Family circumstances went against him.(This was the man who scored 2-6 in the Ulster Final that year)
2000 One kick, one mistake.Bumpy boots it dead and we're in the Final.He did'nt.It went to a replay and the rest is history.
2001 Galway beat us with the last kick of the game.
2002 The Gods smile on us.
2003 The Gods p*ss on us.Leaving aside the sending off, even the most die hard Tyronie would admit that 1 block decided that All Ireland. No question Tyrone were the better team over 70 minutes but in truth it all came down to one block.
2004 We have a man sent off, and loose a game that was there for the taking.
2005 We loose a game that could have gone either way.Fair play to wee Peter.He kills us with the pressure kick.
2006 For 25-30 minutes we have Kerry on the rack, but dont take the goal chances.They Lord it for the next 20 minutes.We dig deep and with 11 mins to go its a 2 point game.We make a stupid mistake and an era is effectively over.
To say we dont score is pure bo**ocks.
SOME DAYS WE JUST DIDNT SCORE ENOUGH  
   

actually joe brolly should take a bow because it was his prowess as a forward that forced armagh to develop the so called blanket defence (a fact that has been well established) basically armagh at in 99 didnt have a single forward capable of marking him. as far as im concerned joe k won one sam and lost two which is ok if you live in cross but not if you live in blackwatertown. he was a good motivator but his predessers can claim alot of the credit for his sucesses. personally im heartbroken that time has eroded a fantastic squad these lads were my team, my era and now i hope they go gracefully i couldnt stomoch them getting a hiding from the likes of kerry or dublin and then have to listen to spillane gloating that thats the end of puke football or we kicked their northern asses back up the north. one thing i have learned i will never ever not back a northern team (even tyrone) when they travell south. so it is fitting that it should end where it started in a game with derry. as for the young lads its gonna be very tough so far the u21s have only really brought arron k as a shoe in the rest havent really caught the eye. maybe in two or three years we could have a stab at an ulster title?? or a mckenna cup. one thing im fairly sure of enda mc nulty will be the only player of these bunch who'll make it as a future manager of armagh 

Havta disagree with ya on a few points there lawnseed

Quotehe was a good motivator but his predessers can claim alot of the credit for his sucesses

The Two Brians deserve a lot of credit for the work they put in and the 2 Ulsters but there's a good chance that had they stayed on Sam 1 might never have come.

Quotepersonally im heartbroken that time has eroded a fantastic squad these lads were my team, my era

We all enjoyed the success of the last few years but even if a few lads do retire, there'll be 30 fellas out representing Armagh next year and they'll deserve our support just as much as this team ever has.

Quoteso it is fitting that it should end where it started in a game with derry.

I'd say our current era began in ballybofey escaping with a draw after being 7 down after 10 minutes.

Quoteas for the young lads its gonna be very tough so far the u21s have only really brought arron k as a shoe in the rest havent really caught the eye.

Brian mallon and Ciaran McKeever are also both established intercounty footballers while there's plenty around the fringes - Swift, Mal Mackin, F Moriarty to name a few.

It's always been a bit of a sore point with me that the 2 Brians never really got the recognition they deserved for putting together the blueprint of the team that went on to success at all-ireland level. True, they took the team as far as they could at that time, but the big advantage that Joe had was the find of Ronan Clarke (the last piece of the jigsaw) and McDonnell's further development on the bigger stage.  Despite all the extra bits and pieces that Kernan brought to the set up, it really all boiled down to him finding himself in the lucky position of having a new top class forward to add to McConville, Marsden and McDonnell.  If Clarke had been on the scene a couple of years earlier his presence would probably have been all that was needed to push Armagh over the line - particularly in 2000.

BTW lawnseed, you could add Paul Duffy to that list. As TAM says, there are are a good few others on the fringes.

Datsun I have an image of you as one of these boys who sits listening to the "Joe Kernan is the king!" of King CDs, you have to look further than the romantic image of Big Joe that the media have served up. He brought us a Sam Maguire and I am forever grateful but does that mean he should call the shots for as long as he wants.

I would love Grimley and I would think the Armagh players would be the same, sadly the wee shits in the County board will just do as Joe says.

anyone got access to a ticket for dublin game tomorrow

totally agree corn. joe knows if he hangs around for a bit things will get better. derrys trashing of mayo is just the trump card hes been looking for, and you are right the county board will give him what ever he wants and at this moment what he needs is TIME armagh clubs are very easily lead nobody wants to come across as not being in support of the county team. joe knows that there is no way stephen kernan would make the team if he wasnt around. also his high profile as county manager isnt doing his business any harm either. but as im on record as saying joes lack of confidence in the young players including the ones mentioned above cannot be hidden even his body language toward them isnt right. btw an example of easily lead-- no other county in ireland hits their clubs as hard for money as armagh. regardless of size of club its one bill for all and nobody objects because they are afraid of being singled out

spot on lawn 2500 ( donation for training from every club)

Re Armamike's comment "It's always been a bit of a sore point with me that the 2 Brians never really got the recognition they deserved for putting together the blueprint of the team that went on to success at all-ireland level".

Absolutely spot on. The 2 Brians deserve huge praise. They built the team, instilled discipline and laid excellent foundations. Your comment that if Clarke had been around in 2000, then that may have been all that was needed, is also spot on.

In 2000, Armagh were one point ahead in the All Ireland semi final with time up and Kerry were awarded a free. Maurice Fitzgerald put it over.

In 2002, Armagh were one point ahead in The All Ireland semi final with time up and Dublin were awarded a free. Ray Cosgrove missed.

If Maurice Fitz had missed and Cosgrove scored, who knows? Brian Canavan and Brian McAlinden deserve nothing only praise. Without them, we may never have had so many great days out in Croke Park. 

Dont forget that if Eoin Brosnan's shot on goal in 2002 had been a few inches to the right you'd probably have no AI.

These "what if" scenarios can work both ways you know

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 15, 2007, 06:09:38 AM
Dont forget that if Eoin Brosnan's shot on goal in 2002 had been a few inches to the right you'd probably have no AI.

These "what if" scenarios can work both ways you know

As was just pointed out in the previous post Mike!  ::)

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on July 14, 2007, 12:04:51 AM
Havta disagree with ya on a few points there lawnseed

Quotehe was a good motivator but his predessers can claim alot of the credit for his sucesses

The Two Brians deserve a lot of credit for the work they put in and the 2 Ulsters but there's a good chance that had they stayed on Sam 1 might never have come.

Quoteso it is fitting that it should end where it started in a game with derry.

I'd say our current era began in ballybofey escaping with a draw after being 7 down after 10 minutes.

Quoteas for the young lads its gonna be very tough so far the u21s have only really brought arron k as a shoe in the rest havent really caught the eye.

Brian mallon and Ciaran McKeever are also both established intercounty footballers while there's plenty around the fringes - Swift, Mal Mackin, F Moriarty to name a few.

Agree with the comments on the two Brains - and I was in a position to tell Brian McAlinden that to his face an hour after the final whistle in 2002. Shook his hand, told him he was responsible for a lot of what had just happened and thanked him!

There are a number of dates that can be pointed to as starting the era of this team, and the game in Ballybofey is definitely one that stands out. Another date though that was hugely significant though was in the Athletic Grounds in May 1995. Derry hammered us 1-18 to 0-10, and by the end there were players clearly saving themselves for Club Championship games!  >:(  It was clear that a change was needed to the management, and the era of the two Brians was thus born. We went to Celtic Park the following year, and although beat, showed that we were not going to roll over and die. The following year we kicked 18 wides in Omagh and lost by 3 points to a late goal. In 1998 we beat Down in Clones, and had no luck in the semi-final against Derry, going down by 7. Thus when 1999 came around, there was a real feeling that this must be the year to make the breakthrough!

As regards under 21s - don't forget Andy Mallon as well!

QuoteDont forget that if Eoin Brosnan's shot on goal in 2002 had been a few inches to the right you'd probably have no AI

Thats 'cos Brosnan's no Canavan...  threading a ball thru the eye of a needle in a AIF takes a little bit more class  ;)

QuoteAs was just pointed out in the previous post Mike! 

True, but its important not to forget we wuz robbed !!

QuoteThats 'cos Brosnan's no Canavan...   

True, he needs to work on his diving technique alright

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 15, 2007, 07:08:40 PM

QuoteAs was just pointed out in the previous post Mike! 

True, but its important not to forget we wuz robbed !!

In the first half you could have been out of sight alright - but the luck ye got in 2000 deserted ye in 2002 - vica versa for ourselves!

QuoteThats 'cos Brosnan's no Canavan...  threading a ball thru the eye of a needle in a AIF takes a little bit more class 

..and he didnt do his primary job today as Monaghan dominated possesion. If they were any way clinical they'd have won

Corn 02

QuoteDatsun I have an image of you as one of these boys who sits listening to the "Joe Kernan is the king!" of King CDs, you have to look further than the romantic image of Big Joe that the media have served up. He brought us a Sam Maguire and I am forever grateful but does that mean he should call the shots for as long as he wants.

I would love Grimley and I would think the Armagh players would be the same, sadly the wee shits in the County board will just do as Joe says.

Sorry to have rattled your cage there young Corn - In 2002 Joe was hailed as the High King of Armagh and in 2007 he had 2 games in the Championship and lost them both, so now the bandwagon is calling for the firing squad! It shows how the level of expectation in the county is now up there depleting the Ozone.

My point

QuoteI would firmly be in the camp that believes Paul Grimley is the best man for the job when Joe moves, perhaps with Peter Rafferty and Geezer in the fold. A hugely difficult task would be to replace John Mc Cluskey should he move on!

Whatever happens, I think Armagh would be much poorer if they were to lose Joe's experience altogether - the first Director of Football in GAA terms would be appropriate - we can't afford to start again with a new manager who has to learn the inter-county game from scratch or it definitely will be "What now for Armagh ?"

[/i]

is that despite the huge expectation within the county, this is the only time in our history that we have been looked upon as one of the "Big Guns". One era is coming to an end and it does not necessarily fit that it must be followed by a second in the near future. (Think of Down as an obvious example! )

Like yourself, I would love to see Paul Grimley installed as the new manager - I believe that he has played an immense part in Armagh's success' since 2002, however being uncertain, as I am, of how he was allowed to leave the Armagh set-up, I'm not convinced that we will have our wish granted so soon. There in lies the source of my concern - if Joe leaves and is replaced by anyone other than Paul G there will be no continuity and a real chance of a return to the dark old days of one Ulster Final apperance every decade, if we're lucky!
(Think of Down as an obvious example! )

So while the bandwagon is calling for his head - I'll stick with my own plan for a gradual change - moving Joe "upstairs" would allow someone new to come to the fore, with new ideas and new opinions on personnel, whilst at the same time retain Joe's experience and knowhow close at hand - only a fool would want to disregard what he has learned over the years, even if it was just to help prevent making the same mistakes that have already been made!

The obvious retort to the above idea is that Joe will be too big a personality to let someone else steal the limelight and indeed with lots of potential replacements that may be true - but hey - at least we can then be sure that we have got the wrong man for the job!!!

That's hopefully shattered your romantic image of my good self Corn - but at the end of the day it's all about winning and you can never win enough!

• Quote
  Thats 'cos Brosnan's no Canavan...  threading a ball thru the eye of a needle in a AIF takes a little bit more class

Quote

..and he didnt do his primary job today as Monaghan dominated possesion. If they were any way clinical they'd have won

I think that you're mixing up your Canavan's with your Cavanagh's this time Mikey

True, true...a silly mistake on my part. Canavan is out of the picture these days. Bit like Armagh I suppose.....

Hopefully not for too long - thankfully you've been known to get it wrong!!!!!

That would be me cousin Plunkett of Moy - just across the bridge - another young cousin Nissan nearly drove his way onto the squad too

QuoteAgree with the comments on the two Brains - and I was in a position to tell Brian McAlinden that to his face an hour after the final whistle in 2002. Shook his hand, told him he was responsible for a lot of what had just happened and thanked him!

Pure shite. If they had still been in place, you'd have no All-Irelands. They simply didn't know what it took to win one. I'm sure Brian knew that when he was forced to shake your hand and utter under his breath 'another condescending gobshite'.

It seems Joe Kernan will be the Armagh manager again next year. He almost said as much in an interview with Con Murphy on RTE radio 1 earlier today. Joe commented during the interview about how he watched other games and how this made him realize what things he could have done different. When Joe meets with the Armagh county board in the next few weeks provided they are OK with him Joe will be back at the helm next year.

You should read Death of Salesman by Arthur Miller. He's starting to resemble Willy.

Quote from: ONeill on July 15, 2007, 11:41:44 PM

QuoteAgree with the comments on the two Brains - and I was in a position to tell Brian McAlinden that to his face an hour after the final whistle in 2002. Shook his hand, told him he was responsible for a lot of what had just happened and thanked him!

Pure shite. If they had still been in place, you'd have no All-Irelands. They simply didn't know what it took to win one.

:D  I will grant you I do type a lot of dung, but if you look closely, I did not say we would have won the All Ireland under the two Bs!!   :-*

Quote from: ONeill on July 15, 2007, 11:41:44 PM

QuoteAgree with the comments on the two Brains - and I was in a position to tell Brian McAlinden that to his face an hour after the final whistle in 2002. Shook his hand, told him he was responsible for a lot of what had just happened and thanked him!

I'm sure Brian knew that when he was forced to shake your hand and utter under his breath 'another condescending gobshite'.

I can't believe it - I never heard him say anything bad during our conversation - but there you go, all the time he was muttering under his breath - and he seemed so nice when I was talking to him!!

It just shows doesn't it?   :D

There's nobody posts more dung than O'Neill Rufus!!!

Quote from: bigpaul on July 16, 2007, 01:07:23 AM
There's nobody posts more dung than O'Neill Rufus!!!

Don't know Paul - I love it when Shane talks dirty!!   ;D

Not going there!!!!!

yes pat daly someone told me about this interview and i thought they were pulling my leg. i heard that mrs kernan was also briefly interviewed and she says joe will not be happy til ALL :o his sons are playing for armagh. it is now quite obvious the guy has lost the plot- mad as a march hare. infact far from managing the armagh squad he is now going to take us back to the early nineties. so get ready to get exited about league football again. wins over the likes of cavan in febuary will send the dwindling supporters into deleirium but one good thing will come out of this farce-- we'll get rid of the buckie brigade. but take this as fact not one club in armagh has a delegate at the county board with the swingers to stand up and say we think its time for a change even if his club wants him to. infact get ready for an even bigger bill for the county training fund next year as joe will certainly want to top up his tan before the championship   

is there any truth in the rumour that a few of armaghs bigger names said that they would be leaving the panel if joe stays on as manager ....

I think the time has come to thank Joe but initiate a change in direction. We don't want to end up among the mediocrities like Down (Mc Grath stayed far too long). Every manager, successful or not, has as shelf life and Joe has come to the end of his, in my opinion.

Quite a good response Datsun, but I still would be disgusted if Joe remains involved with Armagh.

Hank, I would certainly believe it but I have heard nothing.

Quote from: Hank Everlast on July 18, 2007, 01:38:17 PM
is there any truth in the rumour that a few of armaghs bigger names said that they would be leaving the panel if joe stays on as manager ....

Would the few "bigger" names not be going anyway? Who are you referring to?

QuoteQuite a good response Datsun, but I still would be disgusted if Joe remains involved with Armagh.

Hank, I would certainly believe it but I have heard nothing.

Corn - to the first point - Cheers

and your second - it would appear that your belief is well founded and that in addition to the old hands leaving, many of the younger players would be following them out the exit door! It now seems that we could be fcuked if Big Paul is not approached sooner rather than later. This is info from someone with Ulster Championship medals in his pocket.