Let's park the league game now. This has potential to be some game. Key battle will be who can best stop the other teams main man i.e. Forker on Murphy and McCole or whoever gets the job of marking O'Neill.
Looking forward to this one big time!
It's still March. It's too early to be talking about the championship.
Starting in 2 and a half weeks seafín ;)
A lot will depend on whether Donegal can get a pair of shorts to fit McBrearty
Quote from: LCohen on March 31, 2022, 11:26:56 AM
A lot will depend on whether Donegal can get a pair of shorts to fit McBrearty
;D ;D
All things being equal with both sides at full strength Armagh will have the beating of Donegal.
Murphy not what he was and Donegal are not the same side without him.
Armagh have shown in the league that they have progressed. A big physical side that is defensively strong and have a much improved attack.
The suspensions, if upheld, will swing it back in Donegal's favour though.
Quote from: LCohen on March 31, 2022, 11:26:56 AM
A lot will depend on whether Donegal can get a pair of shorts to fit McBrearty
I thought I read somewhere that Mc Brearty had played all Donegal's games this year - on that assumption, you'd think he'd be as fit as he ever should be?
Despite the overall theme that Donegal haven't really been affected by the suspensions, the loss of McFadden-Ferry is a big blow. We are very light on effective man markers and we won't be able to replace him. Along with Brendan McCole, he's been our best player in the league.
And if McCole gets injured or has to go off through cards or whatever, we are definitely fucked with McGee the only replacement we have. Defense has been a big struggle for us the past few years.
And we are still missing several players further up the field who would usually be first choice.
Dry them, currently Donegal are on the pigs back, sure two of the main men to mark won't be playing.
Quote from: Rossfan on March 31, 2022, 11:23:59 AM
Starting in 2 and a half weeks seafín ;)
I know. It's an abomination. Summer is for GAA.
I can't play this in
late July and think of Mayo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeBTFjSUNMM
On the other hand the championship has been tinkered with 5 times in the last 6 season so maybe this will be dumped too.
Quote from: Average Score on March 31, 2022, 12:20:15 PM
Dry them, currently Donegal are on the pigs back, sure two of the main men to mark won't be playing.
Merely making a point about the impact on the Donegal team.
Is that not allowed on this thread discussing the game?
No doubt Donegal have went a bit backwards the past couple of years, I thought there was an AI on the horizon a few years back but it's went a bit pear-shaped and Bonner's time has passed and they really need a new voice in there. While they are there for the taking for Armagh they are more than capable of beating us by 5 or 6 points on a good day.
If the suspensions don't give us a motivational edge I'd be very surprised, I honestly think we'll benefit from it.
I'm definitely a bit pessimistic by nature and always waiting to be let down by the various teams I support but I've no idea what way this going to go, it's as close to a 50/50 game as you're gonna get. Could be a big Summer ahead for the winner and a first round qualifier exit for the loser.
All being well, each of the suspensions will be appealed and overturned for what was nothing more than handbags and trial by RTE pundits. Would like to see both teams having the opportunity to go at it full strength, as it has the makings of a cracker in Ballybofey.
Donegal by 5
Armagh had a good start in D1 then faded somewhat.
Not sure about McGeeney.
Donegal have more experience.
We don't have the experience of winning in Ulster. We have failed numerous times to close out close games falling short on almost every occasion. The Donegal game will be the true acid test.
Quote from: bennydorano on March 31, 2022, 08:04:07 PM
No doubt Donegal have went a bit backwards the past couple of years, I thought there was an AI on the horizon a few years back but it's went a bit pear-shaped and Bonner's time has passed and they really need a new voice in there. While they are there for the taking for Armagh they are more than capable of beating us by 5 or 6 points on a good day.
If the suspensions don't give us a motivational edge I'd be very surprised, I honestly think we'll benefit from it.
I'm definitely a bit pessimistic by nature and always waiting to be let down by the various teams I support but I've no idea what way this going to go, it's as close to a 50/50 game as you're gonna get. Could be a big Summer ahead for the winner and a first round qualifier exit for the loser.
Quietly confident for this one, firmly believe that we are a better side than Donegal and playing to the best our our ability we'll have too much for them. We seem to have tightened up the back and don't think they have the defenders to live with O'Neill, Grugan etc.
Very possible we self sabotage though like we did vs Monaghan last year! Also wouldnt fear anyone in the Qualifiers either side capable of getting to the AIQF through the back door!
I wouldn't start grugan. Wait to the heavy work is done and bring him on in second half when game opens up.
And who would you start in place of him, Grugan has had an very good league.
Quote from: keeperlit on April 01, 2022, 09:04:57 AM
I wouldn't start grugan. Wait to the heavy work is done and bring him on in second half when game opens up.
With a full team I'd have been starting Grugan and keeping Turbitt (if fit) and Soupy in reserve to run at them in the second half. With Nugent and Soupy gone we might have to start Turbitt. Hopefully Oisin O'Neill is back.
very confident Armagh will win this game.
Maybe put Higgins into fullback and push forker up. Grugan had a good game against Dublin. Ok against Tyrone, very poor against Kerry and Mayo. When game loosens up bring him in. It is going to be a physical aggressive game on a tight pitch in ballybofey and this won’t suit grugan. He was probably one of Armagh’s most booked players in the league and they were all for silly petulant stuff e.g barging into Monaghan’s man back after the ball had long gone over the endline. Not saying he doesn’t have a role, just that we may get better use out of him by bringing him in when game opens up. Or maybe I am being too harsh on him.
Quote from: keeperlit on April 01, 2022, 10:17:45 AM
Maybe put Higgins into fullback and push forker up. Grugan had a good game against Dublin. Ok against Tyrone, very poor against Kerry and Mayo. When game loosens up bring him in. It is going to be a physical aggressive game on a tight pitch in ballybofey and this won't suit grugan. He was probably one of Armagh's most booked players in the league and they were all for silly petulant stuff e.g barging into Monaghan's man back after the ball had long gone over the endline. Not saying he doesn't have a role, just that we may get better use out of him by bringing him in when game opens up.
No chance Higgins gets dropped into a game like this with so little experience. Forker, Jarly Og, McKay and McCabe more or less nailed on to start in defence I reckon, other spots between Mackin, Burns and Morgan I'd say.
Have Donegal only lost 2 games at Ballybofey since 2010?
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 01, 2022, 11:08:57 AM
Have Donegal only lost 2 games at Ballybofey since 2010?
One of them was two weeks ago.
Quote from: seafoid on March 31, 2022, 10:01:50 PM
Armagh had a good start in D1 then faded somewhat.
Not sure about McGeeney.
Donegal have more experience.
Did Armagh 'fade', or did the order of their opposition make it look that way?
As per the league table, the four worst teams were Dublin, Kildare, Monaghan & Tyrone. Armagh took points from all four.
As per the league table, the two best teams were Kerry & Mayo. Armagh lost to both.
The Donegal game was a dead rubber with a weakened line out.
Rather than fading, it looks like Armagh's results throughout the league were consistent with their position in the current pecking order (~4th/5th).
Rafferty
Morgan
Forker
McKay
Mackin
McCabe
JOB
Grimley
Crealey
Duffy, or Oisin O'Neill if fit
Grugan
Kelly
Turbitt (if fit)
Rian
Murnin
Quote from: keeperlit on April 01, 2022, 09:04:57 AM
I wouldn't start grugan. Wait to the heavy work is done and bring him on in second half when game opens up.
Grugan is one of the first three names on the teamsheet for me along with Rian O'Neill and Aidan Forker. He's the man that makes the Armagh forward line tick. His vision and passing ability are second to none. Not a chance he doesn't start if fit.
Donegal as cute as f*ck. Accepting the ban of their two players knowing that doing so will surely mean that Armaghs appeal for their 3 players will be turned down.
Quote from: Itchy on April 01, 2022, 12:55:57 PM
Donegal as cute as f*ck. Accepting the ban of their two players knowing that doing so will surely mean that Armaghs appeal for their 3 players will be turned down.
It's just the logical thing to do from their point of view. Why would they appeal when one of them is a veteran sub unlikely to be used anyway. They are effectively missing one player to Armaghs three.
Are Armagh appealing then? I'd be disappointed if they didn't.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 01, 2022, 01:10:45 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 01, 2022, 12:55:57 PM
Donegal as cute as f*ck. Accepting the ban of their two players knowing that doing so will surely mean that Armaghs appeal for their 3 players will be turned down.
It's just the logical thing to do from their point of view. Why would they appeal when one of them is a veteran sub unlikely to be used anyway. They are effectively missing one player to Armaghs three.
Are Armagh appealing then? I'd be disappointed if they didn't.
Yes
When was the last time Armagh beat Donegal in a competitive match?
I think 2006 was our last championship win over them.
2010 we won a league game by 10+ but since then Donegal have had our number. Last few outings though have only been by a point in favour of Donegal and draws.
Quote from: Solo_run on April 01, 2022, 02:04:28 PM
I think 2006 was our last championship win over them.
2010 we won a league game by 10+ but since then Donegal have had our number. Last few outings though have only been by a point in favour of Donegal and draws.
No, we beat them in a Qualifier in Crossmaglen in 2010 Jamie Clark scored two goals early on and it was all over.
Could Armagh appealing, bring further problems for Donegal , if more incidents were to appear ??
Quote from: Solo_run on April 01, 2022, 02:04:28 PM
I think 2006 was our last championship win over them.
2010 we won a league game by 10+ but since then Donegal have had our number. Last few outings though have only been by a point in favour of Donegal and draws.
Armagh had that 12 point defeat in the 2020 Ulster semi-final as well from what I can remember.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 01, 2022, 03:31:59 PM
Quote from: Solo_run on April 01, 2022, 02:04:28 PM
I think 2006 was our last championship win over them.
2010 we won a league game by 10+ but since then Donegal have had our number. Last few outings though have only been by a point in favour of Donegal and draws.
No, we beat them in a Qualifier in Crossmaglen in 2010 Jamie Clark scored two goals early on and it was all over.
That was rock bottom for Donegal right before McGuinness took over.
In fairness they became a machine after that, Armagh has been chasing ever since.
Quote from: bennydorano on March 31, 2022, 08:04:07 PM
I'm definitely a bit pessimistic by nature and always waiting to be let down by the various teams I support but I've no idea what way this going to go, it's as close to a 50/50 game as you're gonna get. Could be a big Summer ahead for the winner and a first round qualifier exit for the loser.
This is where Ulster teams need to get their heads right, especially for a year like this
Both teams should have big summers ahead, win or lose. The loser should be making the AI Quarter Final, with possibly playing Mayo, Kerry or Dublin. And going into it as a big underdog against possibly undercooked and overrated opposition. A great opportunity.
Quote from: Hound on April 02, 2022, 09:20:13 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 31, 2022, 08:04:07 PM
I'm definitely a bit pessimistic by nature and always waiting to be let down by the various teams I support but I've no idea what way this going to go, it's as close to a 50/50 game as you're gonna get. Could be a big Summer ahead for the winner and a first round qualifier exit for the loser.
This is where Ulster teams need to get their heads right, especially for a year like this
Both teams should have big summers ahead, win or lose. The loser should be making the AI Quarter Final, with possibly playing Mayo, Kerry or Dublin. And going into it as a big underdog against possibly undercooked and overrated opposition. A great opportunity.
That's very true.
Kind of got used to one-and-out the last two years, but no reason why either team should pack it in on losing this one.
Quote from: J70 on April 02, 2022, 01:36:41 PM
That's very true.
Kind of got used to one-and-out the last two years, but no reason why either team should pack it in on losing this one.
All the more reason not to have another melee then.
Maybe the parking attendants will be better trained in Ballybofey. ;D ;D
Anyone else hearing the CCCC are likely to propose additional suspensions this week?
Quote from: David McKeown on April 04, 2022, 10:23:37 AM
Anyone else hearing the CCCC are likely to propose additional suspensions this week?
Hearing that the original bans were from the referees report and that the video evidence was looked at on Friday and sounds like bad news for Armagh. Hopefully not true and will ruin the game.
Was it not completely stupid of Armagh to appeal the decision in the first place as it was likely that video evidence would be used?
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 04, 2022, 11:11:20 AM
Was it not completely stupid of Armagh to appeal the decision in the first place as it was likely that video evidence would be used?
I think this is separate to the appeal. The CCCC were always going to look at the video regardless.
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 04, 2022, 11:11:20 AM
Was it not completely stupid of Armagh to appeal the decision in the first place as it was likely that video evidence would be used?
2 separate processes. The video was looked at after Armagh submitted their appeals but not because of their appeals.
Seems Rian ONeill has been suspended. Haven't seen anything to confirm tho
Quote from: David McKeown on April 04, 2022, 11:44:53 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 04, 2022, 11:11:20 AM
Was it not completely stupid of Armagh to appeal the decision in the first place as it was likely that video evidence would be used?
I think this is separate to the appeal. The CCCC were always going to look at the video regardless.
Yeah thats what I've heard as well. Any word of the appeals? If we lose the 3 appeals plus Rian we're in big trouble. Although from talking to people that were there Murphy punched Grugan at the end so hopefully he gets a ban to even the thing up slightly.
The ref didn't have Murphy in his report or he would have been banned, so he will have gotten away with one.
Quote from: Average Score on April 04, 2022, 12:18:39 PM
The ref didn't have Murphy in his report or he would have been banned, so he will have gotten away with one.
Did the Ref have Rian in his report?
Quote from: Average Score on April 04, 2022, 12:18:39 PM
The ref didn't have Murphy in his report or he would have been banned, so he will have gotten away with one.
Rian wasn't in it either. His ban is (going by the rumours anyway) a result of video evidence. Hopefully there is video evidence of Murphy as well.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 04, 2022, 12:22:01 PM
Quote from: Average Score on April 04, 2022, 12:18:39 PM
The ref didn't have Murphy in his report or he would have been banned, so he will have gotten away with one.
Did the Ref have Rian in his report?
No but Murphy isn't deemed to be striking in the video.
Armagh may prepare for the qualifiers.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 04, 2022, 12:22:01 PM
Quote from: Average Score on April 04, 2022, 12:18:39 PM
The ref didn't have Murphy in his report or he would have been banned, so he will have gotten away with one.
Did the Ref have Rian in his report?
Seemingly not. Just the video.
Any player who isn't captured by that one camera angle gets away with whatever they did.
We just have to deal with it
Quote from: LCohen on April 04, 2022, 11:49:27 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 04, 2022, 11:11:20 AM
Was it not completely stupid of Armagh to appeal the decision in the first place as it was likely that video evidence would be used?
2 separate processes. The video was looked at after Armagh submitted their appeals but not because of their appeals.
That's what I meant to say. Armagh would have know that the video is reviewed upon appeal which is strange why they proceeded
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 04, 2022, 12:38:05 PM
Quote from: LCohen on April 04, 2022, 11:49:27 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 04, 2022, 11:11:20 AM
Was it not completely stupid of Armagh to appeal the decision in the first place as it was likely that video evidence would be used?
2 separate processes. The video was looked at after Armagh submitted their appeals but not because of their appeals.
That's what I meant to say. Armagh would have know that the video is reviewed upon appeal which is strange why they proceeded
The video was going to be looked at anyway. This didn't come from armaghs appeal
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 04, 2022, 12:46:29 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 04, 2022, 12:38:05 PM
Quote from: LCohen on April 04, 2022, 11:49:27 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 04, 2022, 11:11:20 AM
Was it not completely stupid of Armagh to appeal the decision in the first place as it was likely that video evidence would be used?
2 separate processes. The video was looked at after Armagh submitted their appeals but not because of their appeals.
That's what I meant to say. Armagh would have know that the video is reviewed upon appeal which is strange why they proceeded
The video was going to be looked at anyway. This didn't come from armaghs appeal
Have the appeals even been heard yet or when can we expect a decision there?
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 04, 2022, 12:46:29 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 04, 2022, 12:38:05 PM
Quote from: LCohen on April 04, 2022, 11:49:27 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 04, 2022, 11:11:20 AM
Was it not completely stupid of Armagh to appeal the decision in the first place as it was likely that video evidence would be used?
2 separate processes. The video was looked at after Armagh submitted their appeals but not because of their appeals.
That's what I meant to say. Armagh would have know that the video is reviewed upon appeal which is strange why they proceeded
The video was going to be looked at anyway. This didn't come from armaghs appeal
Is that true? Surely they looked at the video because of the appeal to exonerate or uphold as in case of McManus, was Kerry / Dublin video looked at, or Armagh / Tyrone?
Isn't there a separate melee thread for Armagh, Tyrone and now Donegal.
Quote from: Main Street on April 04, 2022, 01:42:53 PM
Isn't there a separate melee thread for Armagh, Tyrone and now Donegal.
It wouldn't be right to pile into a melee thread.
Heard about Rian O'Neills likely suspension over the weekend, I'm not sure if it has been confirmed anywhere yet but looking at the video it was always going to happen once the CCC looked into it. Donegals smile from last week must be a full blown laugh at this stage. According to people at the match they instigated the row and have now got a massive result with 4 key players for Armagh suspended. Their 2 joint captains, a key midfielder and Soupy who is one of the 4 best forwards in the county.
The timing is horrible with the fact that the next game is a championship match and the key match of the season. There is plenty of blame to go around from an Armagh viewpoint but it is going to make an already tough game even harder now.
If contributing to a melee warrants a ban and from video evidence only Rian is further punished - the whole thing is a joke, then again how the ref only picked out 5 players and them 5 in the first place is also a joke he must have stood in one spot.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 04, 2022, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: Main Street on April 04, 2022, 01:42:53 PM
Isn't there a separate melee thread for Armagh, Tyrone and now Donegal.
It wouldn't be right to pile into a melee thread.
This is genuinely one of the funniest things I've read on this board in quite some time. Well played sir well played
Quote from: armaghniac on April 04, 2022, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: Main Street on April 04, 2022, 01:42:53 PM
Isn't there a separate melee thread for Armagh, Tyrone and now Donegal.
It wouldn't be right to pile into a melee thread.
🤣🤣brilliant
No sympathy for the Orchard men the masters of the dark arts what goes round comes around as they say.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 04, 2022, 02:28:37 PM
Heard about Rian O'Neills likely suspension over the weekend, I'm not sure if it has been confirmed anywhere yet but looking at the video it was always going to happen once the CCC looked into it. Donegals smile from last week must be a full blown laugh at this stage. According to people at the match they instigated the row and have now got a massive result with 4 key players for Armagh suspended. Their 2 joint captains, a key midfielder and Soupy who is one of the 4 best forwards in the county.
The timing is horrible with the fact that the next game is a championship match and the key match of the season. There is plenty of blame to go around from an Armagh viewpoint but it is going to make an already tough game even harder now.
We all want to watch the best players playing in the championship and Rian is one of the best at the moment. Why not just have league sendings off mean suspension from league matches and championship red cards applying to championship. Given the knock out and one off nature of championship it seems unfair to miss big games like this because of a game at the end of the league.
Quote from: lenny on April 04, 2022, 06:53:25 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 04, 2022, 02:28:37 PM
Heard about Rian O'Neills likely suspension over the weekend, I'm not sure if it has been confirmed anywhere yet but looking at the video it was always going to happen once the CCC looked into it. Donegals smile from last week must be a full blown laugh at this stage. According to people at the match they instigated the row and have now got a massive result with 4 key players for Armagh suspended. Their 2 joint captains, a key midfielder and Soupy who is one of the 4 best forwards in the county.
The timing is horrible with the fact that the next game is a championship match and the key match of the season. There is plenty of blame to go around from an Armagh viewpoint but it is going to make an already tough game even harder now.
We all want to watch the best players playing in the championship and Rian is one of the best at the moment. Why not just have league sendings off mean suspension from league matches and championship red cards applying to championship. Given the knock out and one off nature of championship it seems unfair to miss big games like this because of a game at the end of the league.
See I read stuff like that as "let's only worry about discipline when it suits us".
Imho it's the single biggest problem with Gaelic Games. I've no interest in watching a sanitised version of the games. But people don't want standards. They want get out clauses.
Quote from: lenny on April 04, 2022, 06:53:25 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 04, 2022, 02:28:37 PM
Heard about Rian O'Neills likely suspension over the weekend, I'm not sure if it has been confirmed anywhere yet but looking at the video it was always going to happen once the CCC looked into it. Donegals smile from last week must be a full blown laugh at this stage. According to people at the match they instigated the row and have now got a massive result with 4 key players for Armagh suspended. Their 2 joint captains, a key midfielder and Soupy who is one of the 4 best forwards in the county.
The timing is horrible with the fact that the next game is a championship match and the key match of the season. There is plenty of blame to go around from an Armagh viewpoint but it is going to make an already tough game even harder now.
We all want to watch the best players playing in the championship and Rian is one of the best at the moment. Why not just have league sendings off mean suspension from league matches and championship red cards applying to championship. Given the knock out and one off nature of championship it seems unfair to miss big games like this because of a game at the end of the league.
I don't think the CCC should consider a player's talent as far as suspensions are concerned. Shows a serious lack of discipline and tact for Armagh to have got involved in that in a game which was over and had no impact on them. For all their good early performances in the league, they could have blown their championship before a ball has been kicked.
Quote from: lenny on April 04, 2022, 06:53:25 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 04, 2022, 02:28:37 PM
Heard about Rian O'Neills likely suspension over the weekend, I'm not sure if it has been confirmed anywhere yet but looking at the video it was always going to happen once the CCC looked into it. Donegals smile from last week must be a full blown laugh at this stage. According to people at the match they instigated the row and have now got a massive result with 4 key players for Armagh suspended. Their 2 joint captains, a key midfielder and Soupy who is one of the 4 best forwards in the county.
The timing is horrible with the fact that the next game is a championship match and the key match of the season. There is plenty of blame to go around from an Armagh viewpoint but it is going to make an already tough game even harder now.
We all want to watch the best players playing in the championship and Rian is one of the best at the moment. Why not just have league sendings off mean suspension from league matches and championship red cards applying to championship. Given the knock out and one off nature of championship it seems unfair to miss big games like this because of a game at the end of the league.
The level of punishment for rule-breaking in the GAA is already phenomenally low and you want to reduce it further.
Mind-boggling.
If you reduce the level of punishment, the level of foul play will increase.
If you want to reduce the level of foul play increase the level of punishment.
I presume there will be the customary appeal. This one might actually work. The video is not definitive. I think he is guilty of striking and the video certainly doesn't prove him innocent. But whereas I think he is likely to be guilty is the test not "certainty"? Is so you would find it hard to prove that there isn't at least room for doubt.
But I am not holding out for it and I'm not dragging any anti-armagh or anti-northerner bias into the equation. It's a tight one
Quote from: thewobbler on April 04, 2022, 07:02:59 PM
Quote from: lenny on April 04, 2022, 06:53:25 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 04, 2022, 02:28:37 PM
Heard about Rian O'Neills likely suspension over the weekend, I'm not sure if it has been confirmed anywhere yet but looking at the video it was always going to happen once the CCC looked into it. Donegals smile from last week must be a full blown laugh at this stage. According to people at the match they instigated the row and have now got a massive result with 4 key players for Armagh suspended. Their 2 joint captains, a key midfielder and Soupy who is one of the 4 best forwards in the county.
The timing is horrible with the fact that the next game is a championship match and the key match of the season. There is plenty of blame to go around from an Armagh viewpoint but it is going to make an already tough game even harder now.
We all want to watch the best players playing in the championship and Rian is one of the best at the moment. Why not just have league sendings off mean suspension from league matches and championship red cards applying to championship. Given the knock out and one off nature of championship it seems unfair to miss big games like this because of a game at the end of the league.
See I read stuff like that as "let's only worry about discipline when it suits us".
Imho it's the single biggest problem with Gaelic Games. I've no interest in watching a sanitised version of the games. But people don't want standards. They want get out clauses.
Fair enough point. I'm not a big fan of Armagh but O'Neill is great to watch and it'll be a disappointment if he misses out. I wasn't thinking of it as an opt out clause for him this year. The rules are there and he deserves to have a suspension. Just maybe in the future league red cards should result in league suspensions and likewise for championship. Just a suggestion to throw out there without having given it a huge amount of thought.
Personally, I'd rather Donegal face a full strength Armagh. If we lose, we lose. But if the video shows O'Neill (or anyone else, whether Murphy or whoever) striking, then it has to be dealt with.
No issue with the suspension. O’Neil has left himself exposed when he raised his hand when no 10 took a 15 yard run at him. Height of stupidity. If the authorities have reviewed it and decided to suspend him then he is suspended. The frustrating thing is the consistency. The linesman on the bank side watched (fact) Neil mcgee for two solid minutes batter, pull, drag and barge O’Neill before he did anything. He then seen murphy box grugan (fact) after the final whistle and yet there is no word of any suspensions for this. Does the referee not consult with linesmen before making his report?
Armagh need to be craftier as they were clearly drawn into an orchestrated trap with a reaction from O’Neill leading to disciplinary action been the key Donegal objective. Bonner must be laughing his balls off and you have to tip your hat to him. He has achieved his objective at a relatively cheap price and Armagh have again shown the inability to keep their discipline under trying circumstances.
I genuinely don't understand any of this.
Firstly and fundamentally I don't understand what a melee is and how you contribute to it. At what point does something become a melee, does the instigator of the melee escape punishment. if you honestly feel you are going to be attacked can you respond is self defence as natural justice would say you should be entitled to etc etc. I also can't think of any other team sport where an individual can receive sanction for the actions of others. The rule makes no sense to me.
Secondly the referee and other officials saw the incident and felt that only 5 players contributed to the melee which is a sending off offence but decided to send none of them off at the time.
The CCCC have then looked at that and decided that approach was incorrect (other wise the CCCC should also have cited those 5 players) but that a 6th player and no other should have been punished. How does that work out? Unless we loop back to what on earth is a melee and how do you contribute to it?
It's completely wrong to single out players involved on the basis they did more than others. It's a binary rule. Either they contributed or they didn't. I'd have a lot less issue had significantly more players been banned but the whole thing strikes me as trying to make examples of certain people which is fundamentally unfair.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 04, 2022, 09:01:20 PM
I genuinely don't understand any of this.
Firstly and fundamentally I don't understand what a melee is and how you contribute to it. At what point does something become a melee, does the instigator of the melee escape punishment. if you honestly feel you are going to be attacked can you respond is self defence as natural justice would say you should be entitled to etc etc. I also can't think of any other team sport where an individual can receive sanction for the actions of others. The rule makes no sense to me.
Secondly the referee and other officials saw the incident and felt that only 5 players contributed to the melee which is a sending off offence but decided to send none of them off at the time.
The CCCC have then looked at that and decided that approach was incorrect (other wise the CCCC should also have cited those 5 players) but that a 6th player and no other should have been punished. How does that work out? Unless we loop back to what on earth is a melee and how do you contribute to it?
It's completely wrong to single out players involved on the basis they did more than others. It's a binary rule. Either they contributed or they didn't. I'd have a lot less issue had significantly more players been banned but the whole thing strikes me as trying to make examples of certain people which is fundamentally unfair.
Would it be wrong to interpret this thought pattern as "one in, all in lads... they won't know who to ban then"?
On the video O'Neill could be seen swinging at one if not 2 Donegal players. The Donegal sub keeper bound get a ban now, he was everywhere. I wonder why subs don't pick up bans, they should been nowhere near the field of play. Management personnel stuck in the middle of it 2 should be banned. Again I put the whole displine issue down to management who can cut this thing out. Bit of tough love might do wonders to their attitudes. There was a time red card offences cut you out of the all stars. Tom Morrisey, and Kieran McKeever not considered due to suspensions for striking.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 04, 2022, 09:08:34 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 04, 2022, 09:01:20 PM
I genuinely don't understand any of this.
Firstly and fundamentally I don't understand what a melee is and how you contribute to it. At what point does something become a melee, does the instigator of the melee escape punishment. if you honestly feel you are going to be attacked can you respond is self defence as natural justice would say you should be entitled to etc etc. I also can't think of any other team sport where an individual can receive sanction for the actions of others. The rule makes no sense to me.
Secondly the referee and other officials saw the incident and felt that only 5 players contributed to the melee which is a sending off offence but decided to send none of them off at the time.
The CCCC have then looked at that and decided that approach was incorrect (other wise the CCCC should also have cited those 5 players) but that a 6th player and no other should have been punished. How does that work out? Unless we loop back to what on earth is a melee and how do you contribute to it?
It's completely wrong to single out players involved on the basis they did more than others. It's a binary rule. Either they contributed or they didn't. I'd have a lot less issue had significantly more players been banned but the whole thing strikes me as trying to make examples of certain people which is fundamentally unfair.
Would it be wrong to interpret this thought pattern as "one in, all in lads... they won't know who to ban then"?
I'd have no problem with the banning everyone involved. That would be considerably fairer and far less open to potential abuse than let's just make an example of some. But again the rule would have to be in place to cover it.
I can't think of a single other sport where individuals can be sanctioned because of the actions of others. In association football for example you'd sanction the clubs for failing to control their players but unless the players committed offences in their own right you wouldn't ban them.
In basketball in what was probably the most famous incident in another sport of this kind of thing albeit to a much worse degree (the Malice at the Palace) the NBA only banned 9 players who they could identify as committing actual offences exonerating those others involved in the brawl who didn't commit offences.
My feelings are the rule is atrocious, I said that after the Tyrone game and I stand by it. It's too I'll defined. Too open to inconsistent application and to open to abuse.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 04, 2022, 07:02:59 PM
Quote from: lenny on April 04, 2022, 06:53:25 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 04, 2022, 02:28:37 PM
Heard about Rian O'Neills likely suspension over the weekend, I'm not sure if it has been confirmed anywhere yet but looking at the video it was always going to happen once the CCC looked into it. Donegals smile from last week must be a full blown laugh at this stage. According to people at the match they instigated the row and have now got a massive result with 4 key players for Armagh suspended. Their 2 joint captains, a key midfielder and Soupy who is one of the 4 best forwards in the county.
The timing is horrible with the fact that the next game is a championship match and the key match of the season. There is plenty of blame to go around from an Armagh viewpoint but it is going to make an already tough game even harder now.
We all want to watch the best players playing in the championship and Rian is one of the best at the moment. Why not just have league sendings off mean suspension from league matches and championship red cards applying to championship. Given the knock out and one off nature of championship it seems unfair to miss big games like this because of a game at the end of the league.
See I read stuff like that as "let's only worry about discipline when it suits us".
Imho it's the single biggest problem with Gaelic Games. I've no interest in watching a sanitised version of the games. But people don't want standards. They want get out clauses.
They want consistency, if contributing to a melee is a banable offence Armagh and Donegal should have 13 or 14 bans each.
Quote from: J70 on April 04, 2022, 07:56:56 PM
Personally, I'd rather Donegal face a full strength Armagh. If we lose, we lose. But if the video shows O'Neill (or anyone else, whether Murphy or whoever) striking, then it has to be dealt with.
Murphy totally got away with it. O'Neills arm lift is at most just that.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 04, 2022, 09:08:34 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 04, 2022, 09:01:20 PM
I genuinely don't understand any of this.
Firstly and fundamentally I don't understand what a melee is and how you contribute to it. At what point does something become a melee, does the instigator of the melee escape punishment. if you honestly feel you are going to be attacked can you respond is self defence as natural justice would say you should be entitled to etc etc. I also can't think of any other team sport where an individual can receive sanction for the actions of others. The rule makes no sense to me.
Secondly the referee and other officials saw the incident and felt that only 5 players contributed to the melee which is a sending off offence but decided to send none of them off at the time.
The CCCC have then looked at that and decided that approach was incorrect (other wise the CCCC should also have cited those 5 players) but that a 6th player and no other should have been punished. How does that work out? Unless we loop back to what on earth is a melee and how do you contribute to it?
It's completely wrong to single out players involved on the basis they did more than others. It's a binary rule. Either they contributed or they didn't. I'd have a lot less issue had significantly more players been banned but the whole thing strikes me as trying to make examples of certain people which is fundamentally unfair.
Would it be wrong to interpret this thought pattern as "one in, all in lads... they won't know who to ban then"?
My thoughts exactly but the GAA disciplinary board is inept especially when they seem to choose what matches to act on.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 04, 2022, 09:41:32 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 04, 2022, 09:08:34 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 04, 2022, 09:01:20 PM
I genuinely don't understand any of this.
Firstly and fundamentally I don't understand what a melee is and how you contribute to it. At what point does something become a melee, does the instigator of the melee escape punishment. if you honestly feel you are going to be attacked can you respond is self defence as natural justice would say you should be entitled to etc etc. I also can't think of any other team sport where an individual can receive sanction for the actions of others. The rule makes no sense to me.
Secondly the referee and other officials saw the incident and felt that only 5 players contributed to the melee which is a sending off offence but decided to send none of them off at the time.
The CCCC have then looked at that and decided that approach was incorrect (other wise the CCCC should also have cited those 5 players) but that a 6th player and no other should have been punished. How does that work out? Unless we loop back to what on earth is a melee and how do you contribute to it?
It's completely wrong to single out players involved on the basis they did more than others. It's a binary rule. Either they contributed or they didn't. I'd have a lot less issue had significantly more players been banned but the whole thing strikes me as trying to make examples of certain people which is fundamentally unfair.
Would it be wrong to interpret this thought pattern as "one in, all in lads... they won't know who to ban then"?
I'd have no problem with the banning everyone involved. That would be considerably fairer and far less open to potential abuse than let's just make an example of some. But again the rule would have to be in place to cover it.
I can't think of a single other sport where individuals can be sanctioned because of the actions of others. In association football for example you'd sanction the clubs for failing to control their players but unless the players committed offences in their own right you wouldn't ban them.
In basketball in what was probably the most famous incident in another sport of this kind of thing albeit to a much worse degree (the Malice at the Palace) the NBA only banned 9 players who they could identify as committing actual offences exonerating those others involved in the brawl who didn't commit offences.
My feelings are the rule is atrocious, I said that after the Tyrone game and I stand by it. It's too I'll defined. Too open to inconsistent application and to open to abuse.
Problem is that players, managers, and therefore clubs and counties don't want the rule to be defined. Attempts have been made over the years and they get knocked back before congress. I get the feeling there's a "be careful what you wish for" when it comes to tidying up some of the rougher edges of our games.
Fines for teams (counties, clubs) just don't work. All they do is take money that would have been used for something useful, out of a voluntary organisation's coffers. Players can't subsequently be fined, and don't learn from this.
Personally, i reckon 2-3 seasons of the newfangled approach to melees will go a long way to fixing the problem. BUT it cannot be solely at the referee's discretion to determine what constitutes a melee in a televised football match. Top brass need to intervene in every match.
I was at the Armagh match everyone was practically involved , especially subs with no jersey numbers the video shows that also, why are some choosen others not, its balls
Quote from: David McKeown on April 04, 2022, 09:01:20 PM
I genuinely don't understand any of this.
Firstly and fundamentally I don't understand what a melee is and how you contribute to it. At what point does something become a melee, does the instigator of the melee escape punishment. if you honestly feel you are going to be attacked can you respond is self defence as natural justice would say you should be entitled to etc etc. I also can't think of any other team sport where an individual can receive sanction for the actions of others. The rule makes no sense to me.
Secondly the referee and other officials saw the incident and felt that only 5 players contributed to the melee which is a sending off offence but decided to send none of them off at the time.
The CCCC have then looked at that and decided that approach was incorrect (other wise the CCCC should also have cited those 5 players) but that a 6th player and no other should have been punished. How does that work out? Unless we loop back to what on earth is a melee and how do you contribute to it?
It's completely wrong to single out players involved on the basis they did more than others. It's a binary rule. Either they contributed or they didn't. I'd have a lot less issue had significantly more players been banned but the whole thing strikes me as trying to make examples of certain people which is fundamentally unfair.
Re melee, it would be more than 2 men taking a dig at each other. Is the 3rd man on the scene still a straight red card? Usually if its only 2 men it soon blows over.
Rules state that anyone contributing to a melee (category 3 offence) should be ordered off. So every one involved should have been red carded, could the game have even finished if this law had been enforced?
During the melee, anyone involved in category 4 infractions will get further sanctions, I'm assuming that's what happened the Armagh / Donegal players. Its frustrating as it can be unfair on certain players. But there needs to be a rule in place to ban a team / dock points / kicked out of championship etc and this embarrassing carryon (with backroom personel, subs and others in their bibs all involved) stops immediately.
So how did the ref pick 5 players, its an embarrassment, lip service to the rules and no more.
As a football fan, I, like many others look forward to competitive championship games, the sort that are battles from start to finish but those kind of games are now few and far between. It's disappointing we're now unlikely to see that type of match in Ballybofey following all this.
My view on it, is if players are seen to strike and there is evidence to prove it then it's difficult for the disciplinary bodies/referee to ignore it. I don't subscribe to the view of bias in the GAA amongst media, bodies etc and I like to think everybody is treated in a fair manner.
However those who provide that narrative to be fair might have some grounds when it comes to this charge of "contributing to a melee". We seen three melees in Division 1 this season - Tyrone/Armagh, Donegal/Armagh and Kerry/Dublin.
Now strikes are a different charge but in regards two of those melees the referee, GAA media and disciplinary bodies came down very hard on teams involved, with this 'contributing to a melee', yet with one of the melees it hardly got a mention, and certainly no follow up action.
It is strange and if we're honest it should be a concern. As for the latest melee, I'm not sure of depth but it would be very difficult for any county to lose four key players for a championship game and it not have a significant impact. That is why I think it unlikely we'll have the same type of championship match and Donegal on paper at least should see themselves home by the end.
As for the rest of the season, whoever it impacts the GAA have to be seen to be extrembly strict with any sort of melee and take players through the disciplinary procedures, because they have effectlvely taken a team out of their provincial championship before it begins so this type of intervention has to be consistent, which I'm not sure it was in the league.
HA HA ARMAGH
It's time for a few former Armagh players to come out in defence of these players in the media after all that is what Dublin or Kerry would have done long before now.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 04, 2022, 10:58:28 PM
It's time for a few former Armagh players to come out in defence of these players in the media after all that is what Dublin or Kerry would have done long before now.
Probably afraid of losing the money. Whelan asking for sanctions lmao.
Defence why? After the Tyrone game how stupid are players really?
Quote from: yellowcard on April 04, 2022, 10:58:28 PM
It's time for a few former Armagh players to come out in defence of these players in the media after all that is what Dublin or Kerry would have done long before now.
BBC love bashing GAA and RTE love bashing the occupied 6.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 04, 2022, 11:03:17 PM
Defence why? After the Tyrone game how stupid are players really?
Kerry and Dublin got away with it.
I've no issue with Rian getting banned. However, I'd question the consistency. I'd like the GAA to come out and explain exactly why the players who were banned were banned and how they were chosen
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 04, 2022, 11:06:15 PM
I've no issue with Rian getting banned. However, I'd question the consistency. I'd like the GAA to come out and explain exactly why the players who were banned were banned and how they were chosen
That would require a level of professionalism in their decision making, however that is sadly lacking.
From what I witnessed at the final whistle in Letterkenny last week, this was premeditated by Donegal, and Armagh played right into their hands. It's no coincidence that some of Armagh's top rated players were the direct targets. How Murphy escaped a ban for his unprovoked assault on Grugan is beyond me. Bonner must be having some laugh for the past week.
All in all, the suspensions just mean what should have been a great 50/50 contest in the Championship is now tainted by suspensions and a far more likely Donegal win. Although, Armagh will have the chip on the shoulder needed for a lengthy qualifier run ... unless they still turn over Donegal in Ballybofey ;)
Quote from: Average Score on April 04, 2022, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 04, 2022, 10:58:28 PM
It's time for a few former Armagh players to come out in defence of these players in the media after all that is what Dublin or Kerry would have done long before now.
BBC love bashing GAA and RTE love bashing the occupied 6.
6 county Taigs are the only group on this island that you can hit on without consequence.
Quote from: Average Score on April 04, 2022, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 04, 2022, 07:56:56 PM
Personally, I'd rather Donegal face a full strength Armagh. If we lose, we lose. But if the video shows O'Neill (or anyone else, whether Murphy or whoever) striking, then it has to be dealt with.
Murphy totally got away with it. O'Neills arm lift is at most just that.
If it was an "arm lift at most" I'm sure he'll do just fine with his appeal. ::)
Quote from: J70 on April 05, 2022, 12:06:23 AM
Quote from: Average Score on April 04, 2022, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 04, 2022, 07:56:56 PM
Personally, I'd rather Donegal face a full strength Armagh. If we lose, we lose. But if the video shows O'Neill (or anyone else, whether Murphy or whoever) striking, then it has to be dealt with.
Murphy totally got away with it. O'Neills arm lift is at most just that.
If it was an "arm lift at most" I'm sure he'll do just fine with his appeal. ::)
It wasn't a punch Murphys was a cowardly attack. Even Peter the Great has yet to see a punch in the video.
https://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2022/04/05/news/peter-canavan-has-sympathy-for-banned-players-with-rian-o-neill-cited-2633722/ (https://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2022/04/05/news/peter-canavan-has-sympathy-for-banned-players-with-rian-o-neill-cited-2633722/)
Complete bull. Why is it on other forms that Grugan is getting the blame for trying to start Murphy. He got what was coming to him. Watched him again Meyler that day and he is one sneeky snide player. Why is it these Armagh players seem to have to try and prove there maniless to Geezer and the King of hard men McKeever.
I would be going by facts having been at the match not some anti Armagh keyboard warrior.
Quote from: Average Score on April 05, 2022, 05:09:44 AM
Quote from: J70 on April 05, 2022, 12:06:23 AM
Quote from: Average Score on April 04, 2022, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 04, 2022, 07:56:56 PM
Personally, I'd rather Donegal face a full strength Armagh. If we lose, we lose. But if the video shows O'Neill (or anyone else, whether Murphy or whoever) striking, then it has to be dealt with.
Murphy totally got away with it. O'Neills arm lift is at most just that.
If it was an "arm lift at most" I'm sure he'll do just fine with his appeal. ::)
It wasn't a punch Murphys was a cowardly attack. Even Peter the Great has yet to see a punch in the video.
https://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2022/04/05/news/peter-canavan-has-sympathy-for-banned-players-with-rian-o-neill-cited-2633722/ (https://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2022/04/05/news/peter-canavan-has-sympathy-for-banned-players-with-rian-o-neill-cited-2633722/)
A very fair and balanced article, I think we need to see more of this honesty. The fact Kerry and Dublin got away with a melee, yet others had the book thrown at them opens a lot of questions. In my opinion the GAA need to step back and tell everyone what the criteria is for punishing players, as currently it's unclear and unfair on teams the media decide to go after, before we question how certain players can be picked out. We run the risk of teams with a reputation within the media being targeted by opposition teams to get them involved in some form of melee, as it's likely that team with the reputation will be more harshly treated.
Trial by media - by southern media. GAA are showing themselves to be very very amateur!
Quote from: Average Score on April 05, 2022, 07:42:02 AM
Trial by media - by southern media. GAA are showing themselves to be very very amateur!
The appeals will be interesting , armagh not going to lie down on this , especially the ccc decision to focus on one given a fair few others are as culpable on the video evidence
Hopefully Mc Hugh had the sense to excuse himself from the ccc meeting
I'm going to ask again what exactly is a melee. Over the years we've seen it include pushing a member of the opposition management (Tipp v Wexford in hurling) but not include what happened between Dublin and Kerry. I therefore have no idea.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 05, 2022, 08:34:51 AM
I'm going to ask again what exactly is a melee. Over the years we've seen it include pushing a member of the opposition management (Tipp v Wexford in hurling) but not include what happened between Dublin and Kerry. I therefore have no idea.
Whatever the Sunday game takes exception to and talks about for 10 minutes without mentioning the match, if it is Dublin v Kerry it's washed over, the GAA need to cop on - if a melee is pushing and shoving and getting involved in argy bargy handbag stuff, Armagh and Donegal should have 13 or 14 bans each, are you excused if you have a bib on from sanctions?
Quote from: J70 on April 05, 2022, 12:06:23 AM
Quote from: Average Score on April 04, 2022, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 04, 2022, 07:56:56 PM
Personally, I'd rather Donegal face a full strength Armagh. If we lose, we lose. But if the video shows O'Neill (or anyone else, whether Murphy or whoever) striking, then it has to be dealt with.
Murphy totally got away with it. O'Neills arm lift is at most just that.
If it was an "arm lift at most" I'm sure he'll do just fine with his appeal. ::)
Go watch the video ffs
Either the current proposed suspensions are all justified since the guilty parties were cited for contributing to a melee .... but then how do the other 12+ from each side be excused as they were also involved in the same handbags ... either they all contributed to a melee or none of them did. The whole thing is farcical and once again shows the GAA up for having a lack of proper governance in these situations. The fact that they take their lead from RTE pundits says it all
And Whelan of all folk!
Quote from: balladmaker on April 05, 2022, 09:26:05 AM
Either the current proposed suspensions are all justified since the guilty parties were cited for contributing to a melee .... but then how do the other 12+ from each side be excused as they were also involved in the same handbags ... either they all contributed to a melee or none of them did. The whole thing is farcical and once again shows the GAA up for having a lack of proper governance in these situations. The fact that they take their lead from RTE pundits says it all
Unless there's a different set of rules for the county game, then the difference in approach isn't down to RTE. Instead it's down to the referee's report. If the referee reports a melee, then the case is open and GAA can investigate bringing the game into disrepute. And if one or more players are sent off and subsequently appeal, this is when it's likely to become a full hearing on the melee.
But if the ref doesn't send anyone off (as part of a melee situation) and neglects to report a melee situation in his official report, then beyond HQ asking him to reconsider the contents of his report, the case cannot open.
It's all a bit f**king daft really. But it works from the principle that the only fully honest and wholly independent person at the majority of GAA matches is the referee. So if he doesn't see an incident as worthy of reporting, then the sanitised/flourished version of events pressed forward by the competing teams is never going to get anyone anywhere.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 05, 2022, 09:33:59 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 05, 2022, 09:26:05 AM
Either the current proposed suspensions are all justified since the guilty parties were cited for contributing to a melee .... but then how do the other 12+ from each side be excused as they were also involved in the same handbags ... either they all contributed to a melee or none of them did. The whole thing is farcical and once again shows the GAA up for having a lack of proper governance in these situations. The fact that they take their lead from RTE pundits says it all
Unless there's a different set of rules for the county game, then the difference in approach isn't down to RTE. Instead it's down to the referee's report. If the referee reports a melee, then the case is open and GAA can investigate bringing the game into disrepute. And if one or more players are sent off and subsequently appeal, this is when it's likely to become a full hearing on the melee.
But if the ref doesn't send anyone off (as part of a melee situation) and neglects to report a melee situation in his official report, then beyond HQ asking him to reconsider the contents of his report, the case cannot open.
It's all a bit f**king daft really. But it works from the principle that the only fully honest and wholly independent person at the majority of GAA matches is the referee. So if he doesn't see an incident as worthy of reporting, then the sanitised/flourished version of events pressed forward by the competing teams is never going to get anyone anywhere.
He didn't send anyone off and what makes him report a melee situation, the media false outrage, i.e. there was none for Dublin / Kerry - first thing Whelan said was there will be suspensions from this.
Very frustrating from an Armagh point of view, as this represented our best squad in terms of trying to make a breakthrough at Provincial level, in some considerable time. These losses are game changers.
Call me paranoid, but I definitely feel we were ambushed, but the reality is there is a case to answer. I know it is easy for me to say, standing behind the fence, but we should have been more disciplined.
As long as there is consistency here, going forward, then my frustration can be tempered. That means consistency in terms of referees reporting these issues, the relevant disciplinary committee applying consistent sanctions and indeed the relevant broadcasters highlighting these issues everywhere, as and when they arise.
The sense I get is that when this is called out on national television, there is an increased urgency / determination within the GAA to take action to deal with it. Again, the paranoid within me sees the RTE analysis in this instance as quite forensic when it was not so for similar incidents.
Quote from: Average Score on April 05, 2022, 05:09:44 AM
Quote from: J70 on April 05, 2022, 12:06:23 AM
Quote from: Average Score on April 04, 2022, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 04, 2022, 07:56:56 PM
Personally, I'd rather Donegal face a full strength Armagh. If we lose, we lose. But if the video shows O'Neill (or anyone else, whether Murphy or whoever) striking, then it has to be dealt with.
Murphy totally got away with it. O'Neills arm lift is at most just that.
If it was an "arm lift at most" I'm sure he'll do just fine with his appeal. ::)
It wasn't a punch Murphys was a cowardly attack. Even Peter the Great has yet to see a punch in the video.
https://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2022/04/05/news/peter-canavan-has-sympathy-for-banned-players-with-rian-o-neill-cited-2633722/ (https://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2022/04/05/news/peter-canavan-has-sympathy-for-banned-players-with-rian-o-neill-cited-2633722/)
Rian should have no bother getting off then so.
No eyerolls - you shock me.
Quote from: Average Score on April 05, 2022, 06:52:59 AM
I would be going by facts having been at the match not some anti Armagh keyboard warrior.
That's the thing though, isn't it?
For all we know, you're an anti-Donegal keyboard warrior.
I've heard the claims redzone refers to elsewhere myself.
And in the absence of video or referee evidence implicating Murphy, who are those of us who weren't there, including the GAA authorities, supposed to believe?
Quote from: J70 on April 05, 2022, 10:12:32 AM
Quote from: Average Score on April 05, 2022, 06:52:59 AM
I would be going by facts having been at the match not some anti Armagh keyboard warrior.
That's the thing though, isn't it?
For all we know, you're an anti-Donegal keyboard warrior.
I've heard the claims redzone refers to elsewhere myself.
And in the absence of video or referee evidence implicating Murphy, who are those of us who weren't there, including the GAA authorities, supposed to believe?
So you heard claims Murphy didn't punch Grugan or as redzone said he got what he deserved? I didn't see Nugent punch number 4 who battered him all day.
BTW it is irrelevant what is relevant is how were 4 Armagh players banned and only 2 Donegal if you base it on the video evidence alone?
Quote from: Average Score on April 05, 2022, 10:16:42 AM
Quote from: J70 on April 05, 2022, 10:12:32 AM
Quote from: Average Score on April 05, 2022, 06:52:59 AM
I would be going by facts having been at the match not some anti Armagh keyboard warrior.
That's the thing though, isn't it?
For all we know, you're an anti-Donegal keyboard warrior.
I've heard the claims redzone refers to elsewhere myself.
And in the absence of video or referee evidence implicating Murphy, who are those of us who weren't there, including the GAA authorities, supposed to believe?
So you heard claims Murphy didn't punch Grugan?
I heard Grugan started on him first.
But my point is that it doesn't matter.
Murphy could have launched an unprovoked attack or went over the top defending himself after bring struck first, but if there's no video and no referee's report evidence, it's all just internet rumour and allegation.
Yeah cause if you were going to start on someone you would start on Murphy! Fact is from someone who was at the match Murphy punched Grugan, you believe what you want. Can't believe you actually are advocating him being punched.
Quote from: redzone on April 05, 2022, 06:22:06 AM
Complete bull. Why is it on other forms that Grugan is getting the blame for trying to start Murphy. He got what was coming to him. Watched him again Meyler that day and he is one sneeky snide player. Why is it these Armagh players seem to have to try and prove there maniless to Geezer and the King of hard men McKeever.
j70,
grugan was very late on him during the match and was rightly booked for it.
murphy scored an excellent point at the time but was definitely hit late
.
the hit after the game was in front the linesman again in font of the bank
Some crap being talked here - fact is that Murphy clearly struck Grugan. Either they all get suspended for raising their hands or they don't. Armagh have got shafted here and Donegal have got off very light.
Suspensions were handed out last Monday and now more suspensions?!. Does this mean there could be more? Surely the powers that be should have carried out a proper investigation before any announcements instead of this drip feed nonsense.
Quote from: balladmaker on April 05, 2022, 09:26:05 AM
Either the current proposed suspensions are all justified since the guilty parties were cited for contributing to a melee .... but then how do the other 12+ from each side be excused as they were also involved in the same handbags ... either they all contributed to a melee or none of them did. The whole thing is farcical and once again shows the GAA up for having a lack of proper governance in these situations. The fact that they take their lead from RTE pundits says it all
+1
Quote from: Average Score on April 05, 2022, 10:34:08 AM
Yeah cause if you were going to start on someone you would start on Murphy! Fact is from someone who was at the match Murphy punched Grugan, you believe what you want. Can't believe you actually are advocating him being punched.
Quote from: redzone on April 05, 2022, 06:22:06 AM
Complete bull. Why is it on other forms that Grugan is getting the blame for trying to start Murphy. He got what was coming to him. Watched him again Meyler that day and he is one sneeky snide player. Why is it these Armagh players seem to have to try and prove there maniless to Geezer and the King of hard men McKeever.
I'm not advocating anything.
(Not that size really matters in those situations anyway)
I'm saying I don't know who to believe about unproven and unpursued allegations and counter allegations. On the internet. You're the one who brought up biased keyboard warriors.
I heard the counter rumours a week ago but didn't bring it up here because what's the point? Especially as I'm about the only Donegal person on here amidst dozens of Armagh ones. Redzone introduced it, you responded and I commented on that.
Someone else said it happened right in front of the linesman. If that's the case, Armagh are well within their rights to ask what he saw.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/gaelic-games/60301207.amp
Back to haunt him now.......
How so - did all 6 players who were suspended have folk in headlocks, did all 20+ others not engage in headlocks - your trolling is a bit pathetic.
Quote from: The Trap on April 05, 2022, 11:08:38 AM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/gaelic-games/60301207.amp
Back to haunt him now.......
I didn't see many (if any) players grabbing others in headlocks so it's not coming back to haunt him in the slightest. Armagh should be far more vocal in the media in defending these players and the injustice. Even Peter Canavan came out today and defended them to a degree, where are all the Armagh pundits. Oisin has been strangely very quiet and we know that the only thing that the GAA react to is a media storm.
The media has nothing to do with this folks. You're clutching at straws and confusing the GAA with soccer.
It's all about the referee's report. And once a hearing was requested then it was open season.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 05, 2022, 11:53:55 AM
The media has nothing to do with this folks. You're clutching at straws and confusing the GAA with soccer.
It's all about the referee's report. And once a hearing was requested then it was open season.
You are making the assumption that the referee is not influenced by media commentary and reaction.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 05, 2022, 11:53:55 AM
The media has nothing to do with this folks. You're clutching at straws and confusing the GAA with soccer.
It's all about the referee's report. And once a hearing was requested then it was open season.
How come the same scrutiny wasn't applied to the Kerry v Dublin game?? But sure northern bias isn't a thing........
Quote from: thewobbler on April 05, 2022, 11:53:55 AM
The media has nothing to do with this folks. You're clutching at straws and confusing the GAA with soccer.
It's all about the referee's report. And once a hearing was requested then it was open season.
You're deluded or naive.
Quote from: 5times5times on April 05, 2022, 12:11:56 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 05, 2022, 11:53:55 AM
The media has nothing to do with this folks. You're clutching at straws and confusing the GAA with soccer.
It's all about the referee's report. And once a hearing was requested then it was open season.
How come the same scrutiny wasn't applied to the Kerry v Dublin game?? But sure northern bias isn't a thing........
Sure that was good manly stuff lads getting to know each other. Not like those dirty Northerners
Quote from: J70 on April 05, 2022, 10:27:22 AM
Quote from: Average Score on April 05, 2022, 10:16:42 AM
Quote from: J70 on April 05, 2022, 10:12:32 AM
Quote from: Average Score on April 05, 2022, 06:52:59 AM
I would be going by facts having been at the match not some anti Armagh keyboard warrior.
That's the thing though, isn't it?
For all we know, you're an anti-Donegal keyboard warrior.
I've heard the claims redzone refers to elsewhere myself.
And in the absence of video or referee evidence implicating Murphy, who are those of us who weren't there, including the GAA authorities, supposed to believe?
So you heard claims Murphy didn't punch Grugan?
I heard Grugan started on him first.
But my point is that it doesn't matter.
Murphy could have launched an unprovoked attack or went over the top defending himself after bring struck first, but if there's no video and no referee's report evidence, it's all just internet rumour and allegation.
Wise up, Grugan would be afraid of Murphy's shadow. He caught murphy with an auld sneaky one earlier in the half but referee dealt with it and give him a yellow card. Frustration is from two sources. First is the lack of consistency (linesman seen murphy box grugan and actually moved towards it, surely this should have made its way into the referees report). Secondly, frustrated that Armagh fell into the trap set and could not hold their discipline. Bonner and Donegal played an absolute blinder here and should now waltz through to an ulster final.
All Armagh can hope for at this stage is not to take to big a tanking in two weeks time that will smash the very fragile confidence that the team has and get a bit a spin out in the qualifiers.
Armagh should put out a second string treat the game with the contempt it deserves and concentrate on the qualifiers. Lets face it 4 down it may as well be a second string.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 05, 2022, 11:32:52 AM
Quote from: The Trap on April 05, 2022, 11:08:38 AM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/gaelic-games/60301207.amp
Back to haunt him now.......
I didn't see many (if any) players grabbing others in headlocks so it's not coming back to haunt him in the slightest. Armagh should be far more vocal in the media in defending these players and the injustice. Even Peter Canavan came out today and defended them to a degree, where are all the Armagh pundits. Oisin has been strangely very quiet and we know that the only thing that the GAA react to is a media storm.
armagh are right to keep their powder dry until the appeal process is exhausted
Quote from: naka on April 05, 2022, 01:05:20 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 05, 2022, 11:32:52 AM
Quote from: The Trap on April 05, 2022, 11:08:38 AM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/gaelic-games/60301207.amp
Back to haunt him now.......
I didn't see many (if any) players grabbing others in headlocks so it's not coming back to haunt him in the slightest. Armagh should be far more vocal in the media in defending these players and the injustice. Even Peter Canavan came out today and defended them to a degree, where are all the Armagh pundits. Oisin has been strangely very quiet and we know that the only thing that the GAA react to is a media storm.
armagh are right to keep their powder dry until the appeal process is exhausted
In terms of the county board and management I agree with you but any former players who have a platform in the media should be out defending these players who have trained all year for this match. We don't have that awful many in the media unlike Kerry or Dublin but I think the likes of Oisin McConville, Billy Joe Padden, Aaron Kernan etc should be putting across the lunacy of these suspensions. You can bet if this was Dublin or Kerry then their multiple media pundits would have leapt to their defence before now.
Quote from: Average Score on April 05, 2022, 12:50:06 PM
Armagh should put out a second string treat the game with the contempt it deserves and concentrate on the qualifiers. Lets face it 4 down it may as well be a second string.
You're right.
The best way to approach getting punished for wrong doing is to throw your toys out of the pram.
The GAA way.
This is f**king idiotic
The best way is to make the most out of a bad situation, Armagh have little if any chance without the 4 lads suspended and with injuries, do a Mayo give a few lads a run out and prepare for the qualifiers - no need to be so aggressive there.
Armagh are shafted? Oh the irony, you didn't do much complaining when Tyrone got 4 men banned. I genuinely be looking at how stupid Armagh were to get involved after Tyrone. The manager sorta got for, all in, then its hard to pick players out. Guess what, we're now picking players out from Ref Reports and what TV footage is available so tough shit. If you gonna get involved take your medicine. Some guys may get off, not been picked up by either criteria above, but I think long term it go to cut this crap out. On another matter deliberate striking should be a, 2 match ban at least. The 2 of you's need worry anyway I couldn't see either Team beat Tyrone for the Ulster championship.
I have said previously that I don't think either incident deserved such severe punishments but there wasn't much sympathy for Tyrone when they were the county under scrutiny.
Now what if something like this happens in an all ireland semi final? Will they punish all the players for the final?
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 05, 2022, 01:34:47 PM
Armagh are shafted? Oh the irony, you didn't do much complaining when Tyrone got 4 men banned. I genuinely be looking at how stupid Armagh were to get involved after Tyrone. The manager sorta got for, all in, then its hard to pick players out. Guess what, we're now picking players out from Ref Reports and what TV footage is available so tough shit. If you gonna get involved take your medicine. Some guys may get off, not been picked up by either criteria above, but I think long term it go to cut this crap out. On another matter deliberate striking should be a, 2 match ban at least. The 2 of you's need worry anyway I couldn't see either Team beat Tyrone for the Ulster championship.
What a bitter post you have some chip on your shoulder kid.
Quote from: Average Score on April 05, 2022, 01:49:43 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 05, 2022, 01:34:47 PM
Armagh are shafted? Oh the irony, you didn't do much complaining when Tyrone got 4 men banned. I genuinely be looking at how stupid Armagh were to get involved after Tyrone. The manager sorta got for, all in, then its hard to pick players out. Guess what, we're now picking players out from Ref Reports and what TV footage is available so tough shit. If you gonna get involved take your medicine. Some guys may get off, not been picked up by either criteria above, but I think long term it go to cut this crap out. On another matter deliberate striking should be a, 2 match ban at least. The 2 of you's need worry anyway I couldn't see either Team beat Tyrone for the Ulster championship.
What a bitter post you have some chip on your shoulder kid.
He makes a valid point though. We're the Armagh players and managment not smart enough not to get I involved in any brawls after the last time.
After the tyrone bans I said that any more brawls tyrone got involved in regardless of blame would go against them. Same for Armagh. How they failed to learn from this is beyond me.
Have to agree here. Armagh management really should have been foreseen this sort of shite coming along at some stage.
Be good to see the GAA clamping down on these melees on a consistent basis - through the championship also.
Nip things in the bud straight away and continue in that vein.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 05, 2022, 01:34:47 PM
Armagh are shafted? Oh the irony, you didn't do much complaining when Tyrone got 4 men banned. I genuinely be looking at how stupid Armagh were to get involved after Tyrone. The manager sorta got for, all in, then its hard to pick players out. Guess what, we're now picking players out from Ref Reports and what TV footage is available so tough shit. If you gonna get involved take your medicine. Some guys may get off, not been picked up by either criteria above, but I think long term it go to cut this crap out. On another matter deliberate striking should be a, 2 match ban at least. The 2 of you's need worry anyway I couldn't see either Team beat Tyrone for the Ulster championship.
I complained vehemently at the time and feel I have been consistent throughout unlike the way the authorities have sought to deal with these incidents.
On the Grugan Murphy incident I know what he saw. Grugan kicked Murphy during the game, Grugan should have been sent off I felt but was only booked. Murphy then appeared to attempt to strike out at Forker who it appeared Murphy had wrongly thought was the player that had kicked him. Murphy then got up and pushed Forker twice. After the game Murphy jogged approximately twenty yards and struck Grugan round the back of the head and was soon joined by two other Donegal players and the linesman. I fully accept nothing can be done based on my account. What annoys me is that video evidence can now be used to punish Armagh. However there appears to be no camera covering what I described. If video evidence is to be used to charge players then there should be a minimum number of fixed cameras covering the whole pitch for the whole match otherwise unfairness will arise.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 05, 2022, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 05, 2022, 01:34:47 PM
Armagh are shafted? Oh the irony, you didn't do much complaining when Tyrone got 4 men banned. I genuinely be looking at how stupid Armagh were to get involved after Tyrone. The manager sorta got for, all in, then its hard to pick players out. Guess what, we're now picking players out from Ref Reports and what TV footage is available so tough shit. If you gonna get involved take your medicine. Some guys may get off, not been picked up by either criteria above, but I think long term it go to cut this crap out. On another matter deliberate striking should be a, 2 match ban at least. The 2 of you's need worry anyway I couldn't see either Team beat Tyrone for the Ulster championship.
I complained vehemently at the time and feel I have been consistent throughout unlike the way the authorities have sought to deal with these incidents.
On the Grugan Murphy incident I know what he saw. Grugan kicked Murphy during the game, Grugan should have been sent off I felt but was only booked. Murphy then appeared to attempt to strike out at Forker who it appeared Murphy had wrongly thought was the player that had kicked him. Murphy then got up and pushed Forker twice. After the game Murphy jogged approximately twenty yards and struck Grugan round the back of the head and was soon joined by two other Donegal players and the linesman. I fully accept nothing can be done based on my account. What annoys me is that video evidence can now be used to punish Armagh. However there appears to be no camera covering what I described. If video evidence is to be used to charge players then there should be a minimum number of fixed cameras covering the whole pitch for the whole match otherwise unfairness will arise.
That's a fair comment, although where do you draw the line?
There is always going to be stuff that goes undetected or is unclear.
Or what if the footage is incomplete, say the cameraman catches one player landing a slap, but misses the slap just before that provoked him?
But yeah, the video footage from this game was very poor and incomplete.
Are Armagh and Donegal forced to share their own footage? Between them everything would be captured.
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 05, 2022, 04:04:09 PM
Are Armagh and Donegal forced to share their own footage? Between them everything would be captured.
I know in Armagh club football the clubs must go through the Armagh secretary and seek permission to record games. This permission is granted on the understanding that it must be produced if the county board requests it. I'd imagine that would apply to inter-county football also.
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 05, 2022, 02:00:52 PM
Quote from: Average Score on April 05, 2022, 01:49:43 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 05, 2022, 01:34:47 PM
Armagh are shafted? Oh the irony, you didn't do much complaining when Tyrone got 4 men banned. I genuinely be looking at how stupid Armagh were to get involved after Tyrone. The manager sorta got for, all in, then its hard to pick players out. Guess what, we're now picking players out from Ref Reports and what TV footage is available so tough shit. If you gonna get involved take your medicine. Some guys may get off, not been picked up by either criteria above, but I think long term it go to cut this crap out. On another matter deliberate striking should be a, 2 match ban at least. The 2 of you's need worry anyway I couldn't see either Team beat Tyrone for the Ulster championship.
What a bitter post you have some chip on your shoulder kid.
He makes a valid point though. We're the Armagh players and managment not smart enough not to get I involved in any brawls after the last time.
After the tyrone bans I said that any more brawls tyrone got involved in regardless of blame would go against them. Same for Armagh. How they failed to learn from this is beyond me.
I'd agree, they shouldn't have got involved, but where they set up? I'm not sure of the answer, but when the media are known to go for certain counties this leaves them very vulnerable from opposition teams. I think there is an issue in the media regards Armagh and Tyrone, going back twenty years and I think this finally sticks in places.
I fear we're seeing another example of it this season, it's hard to know what stance they can take to highlight the unfairness of it. Someone mentioned sending a second string to Ballybofey, maybe then announce the plan to do so in advance, so their fans, media know that is the plan before they buy tickets.
We have to be fair here, the media coverage of three melee's this season makes it obvious how media reports certain counties, the GAA need to react to incidents but they need to ensure everyone feels fairly treated at the same time, they're currently failing.
Quote from: 5times5times on April 05, 2022, 12:11:56 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 05, 2022, 11:53:55 AM
The media has nothing to do with this folks. You're clutching at straws and confusing the GAA with soccer.
It's all about the referee's report. And once a hearing was requested then it was open season.
How come the same scrutiny wasn't applied to the Kerry v Dublin game?? But sure northern bias isn't a thing........
Watched the Kerry v Dublin melee there, as regards category 4 infractions there was a world of difference between what happened there and the other 2 melees. Pushing and jersey pulling. No headlock or punches as far as I could see.
Quote from: JoG2 on April 05, 2022, 05:45:50 PM
Quote from: 5times5times on April 05, 2022, 12:11:56 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 05, 2022, 11:53:55 AM
The media has nothing to do with this folks. You're clutching at straws and confusing the GAA with soccer.
It's all about the referee's report. And once a hearing was requested then it was open season.
How come the same scrutiny wasn't applied to the Kerry v Dublin game?? But sure northern bias isn't a thing........
Watched the Kerry v Dublin melee there, as regards category 4 infractions there was a world of difference between what happened there and the other 2 melees. Pushing and jersey pulling. No headlock or punches as far as I could see.
Yes but the charge againt the Tyrone and Armagh players now was 'contributing to a melee'. The strikes is a different charge, it's bizarre nobody in the Kerry/Dublin melee was charged with 'contributing to a melee'. There is finally some comments about consistency in some aspects of the media, those with a narrative of some bias has some evidence in my opinion when you study the charges or lack of in the three melees. I never wanted to believe it but there is a problem that needs looking at.
Average score, your Johnny come lately to this forum. Nothing bitter, stating what actions been took will be better for the game long term.
Quote from: J70 on April 05, 2022, 03:28:34 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 05, 2022, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 05, 2022, 01:34:47 PM
Armagh are shafted? Oh the irony, you didn't do much complaining when Tyrone got 4 men banned. I genuinely be looking at how stupid Armagh were to get involved after Tyrone. The manager sorta got for, all in, then its hard to pick players out. Guess what, we're now picking players out from Ref Reports and what TV footage is available so tough shit. If you gonna get involved take your medicine. Some guys may get off, not been picked up by either criteria above, but I think long term it go to cut this crap out. On another matter deliberate striking should be a, 2 match ban at least. The 2 of you's need worry anyway I couldn't see either Team beat Tyrone for the Ulster championship.
I complained vehemently at the time and feel I have been consistent throughout unlike the way the authorities have sought to deal with these incidents.
On the Grugan Murphy incident I know what he saw. Grugan kicked Murphy during the game, Grugan should have been sent off I felt but was only booked. Murphy then appeared to attempt to strike out at Forker who it appeared Murphy had wrongly thought was the player that had kicked him. Murphy then got up and pushed Forker twice. After the game Murphy jogged approximately twenty yards and struck Grugan round the back of the head and was soon joined by two other Donegal players and the linesman. I fully accept nothing can be done based on my account. What annoys me is that video evidence can now be used to punish Armagh. However there appears to be no camera covering what I described. If video evidence is to be used to charge players then there should be a minimum number of fixed cameras covering the whole pitch for the whole match otherwise unfairness will arise.
That's a fair comment, although where do you draw the line?
There is always going to be stuff that goes undetected or is unclear.
Or what if the footage is incomplete, say the cameraman catches one player landing a slap, but misses the slap just before that provoked him?
But yeah, the video footage from this game was very poor and incomplete.
Why even leave it to the whim of a camera man. I coach a football team in the amateur league based in Belfast. I also do the match stats. I started the season recording all matches on two cheap knock off go pros on tripods diagonally opposite each other. In December I bought a VEO Camera for the club. The VEO is fixed at the half way line and records the whole pitch. I get the raw footage the next day and can pan and tilt and zoom to my hearts content in full 4k. I can't see how all Inter County grounds can't have at least a couple of fixed cameras like that set up for use if necessary in disciplinary procedures.
Quote from: Gael80 on April 05, 2022, 06:25:16 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on April 05, 2022, 05:45:50 PM
Quote from: 5times5times on April 05, 2022, 12:11:56 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 05, 2022, 11:53:55 AM
The media has nothing to do with this folks. You're clutching at straws and confusing the GAA with soccer.
It's all about the referee's report. And once a hearing was requested then it was open season.
How come the same scrutiny wasn't applied to the Kerry v Dublin game?? But sure northern bias isn't a thing........
Watched the Kerry v Dublin melee there, as regards category 4 infractions there was a world of difference between what happened there and the other 2 melees. Pushing and jersey pulling. No headlock or punches as far as I could see.
Yes but the charge againt the Tyrone and Armagh players now was 'contributing to a melee'. The strikes is a different charge, it's bizarre nobody in the Kerry/Dublin melee was charged with 'contributing to a melee'. There is finally some comments about consistency in some aspects of the media, those with a narrative of some bias has some evidence in my opinion when you study the charges or lack of in the three melees. I never wanted to believe it but there is a problem that needs looking at.
'contributing to a melee', is this from the refs report or what the media are typing? All the suspensions so far have been as a result of cat 4 infractions. Plenty in 2 of the melee's, none in the Kerry / Dublin melee.
Quote from: JoG2 on April 05, 2022, 06:54:19 PM
Quote from: Gael80 on April 05, 2022, 06:25:16 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on April 05, 2022, 05:45:50 PM
Quote from: 5times5times on April 05, 2022, 12:11:56 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 05, 2022, 11:53:55 AM
The media has nothing to do with this folks. You're clutching at straws and confusing the GAA with soccer.
It's all about the referee's report. And once a hearing was requested then it was open season.
How come the same scrutiny wasn't applied to the Kerry v Dublin game?? But sure northern bias isn't a thing........
Watched the Kerry v Dublin melee there, as regards category 4 infractions there was a world of difference between what happened there and the other 2 melees. Pushing and jersey pulling. No headlock or punches as far as I could see.
Yes but the charge againt the Tyrone and Armagh players now was 'contributing to a melee'. The strikes is a different charge, it's bizarre nobody in the Kerry/Dublin melee was charged with 'contributing to a melee'. There is finally some comments about consistency in some aspects of the media, those with a narrative of some bias has some evidence in my opinion when you study the charges or lack of in the three melees. I never wanted to believe it but there is a problem that needs looking at.
'contributing to a melee', is this from the refs report or what the media are typing? All the suspensions so far have been as a result of cat 4 infractions. Plenty in 2 of the melee's, none in the Kerry / Dublin melee.
I might be incorrect, but my reading of the Tyrone, Donegal and Armagh initial bans were Cat 2 offences 'contributing to a melee'. The strike charge would be different, if true that means the charges given on just contributing to a melee is no different to most of those involved in Dublin/Kerry game.
I understood that the referees report cited the original five players with contributing to a melee. Similarly it was widely reported that McCabe was cited for a category iv infraction but was cleared of that on appeal but he was not cleared on the category ii infraction.
In fairness Rian O'neill deserves a month's ban every time he tries that John Cena goal celebration. Wtf??
If video evidence is being used to cite Rian O'Neill then I hope they use it for further citations including McGee's provocation during play. This was clearly premeditated. Furthermore the invasion of Donegal's substitutes & backroom team who can't be easily identified due to bibs covering numbers has convinced me it was premeditated & orchestrated. Result. Objective attained.
Quote from: KickPass on April 05, 2022, 08:30:49 PM
In fairness Rian O'neill deserves a month's ban every time he tries that John Cena goal celebration. Wtf??
Don't think thats been done in a few years now! He's one of only a handful of lads in the country good enough to get away with it though
Quote from: Ronnie on April 05, 2022, 09:14:53 PM
If video evidence is being used to cite Rian O'Neill then I hope they use it for further citations including McGee's provocation during play. This was clearly premeditated. Furthermore the invasion of Donegal's substitutes & backroom team who can't be easily identified due to bibs covering numbers has convinced me it was premeditated & orchestrated. Result. Objective attained.
I agree. Last time I was there a few weeks ago someone called me a Nordie bastard too. Let's just fill Donegal with Semtex and blow it all into the sea. It's only fair.
Quote from: JoG2 on April 05, 2022, 06:54:19 PM
Quote from: Gael80 on April 05, 2022, 06:25:16 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on April 05, 2022, 05:45:50 PM
Quote from: 5times5times on April 05, 2022, 12:11:56 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 05, 2022, 11:53:55 AM
The media has nothing to do with this folks. You're clutching at straws and confusing the GAA with soccer.
It's all about the referee's report. And once a hearing was requested then it was open season.
How come the same scrutiny wasn't applied to the Kerry v Dublin game?? But sure northern bias isn't a thing........
Watched the Kerry v Dublin melee there, as regards category 4 infractions there was a world of difference between what happened there and the other 2 melees. Pushing and jersey pulling. No headlock or punches as far as I could see.
Yes but the charge againt the Tyrone and Armagh players now was 'contributing to a melee'. The strikes is a different charge, it's bizarre nobody in the Kerry/Dublin melee was charged with 'contributing to a melee'. There is finally some comments about consistency in some aspects of the media, those with a narrative of some bias has some evidence in my opinion when you study the charges or lack of in the three melees. I never wanted to believe it but there is a problem that needs looking at.
'contributing to a melee', is this from the refs report or what the media are typing? All the suspensions so far have been as a result of cat 4 infractions. Plenty in 2 of the melee's, none in the Kerry / Dublin melee.
Ah JoG, you need to quit with the realism and let these wallow in their self pity and misguided nonsense!!
The 'contributing to a melee' rabbit hole that a few of them have gone down is hilarious. The only people banned from the Tyrone game and Donegal game were banned for violent conduct - either throwing digs or engaging in headlocks. The fact it was part of a melee might change some of the technicalities, but the only ones who get banned and the ones who were violent.
"Oh but why weren't Kerry or Dublin lads banned for 'contributing to a melee'?" they've been squealing.
Well it's because they didn't throw punches or engage in headlocks !! It's not rocket science lads.
But it's great entertainment seeing them continue to whinge that it's the same thing and their lads are only banned because of anti-northern bias or media witch-hunt 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Quote from: Hound on April 05, 2022, 10:22:18 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on April 05, 2022, 06:54:19 PM
Quote from: Gael80 on April 05, 2022, 06:25:16 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on April 05, 2022, 05:45:50 PM
Quote from: 5times5times on April 05, 2022, 12:11:56 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 05, 2022, 11:53:55 AM
The media has nothing to do with this folks. You're clutching at straws and confusing the GAA with soccer.
It's all about the referee's report. And once a hearing was requested then it was open season.
How come the same scrutiny wasn't applied to the Kerry v Dublin game?? But sure northern bias isn't a thing........
Watched the Kerry v Dublin melee there, as regards category 4 infractions there was a world of difference between what happened there and the other 2 melees. Pushing and jersey pulling. No headlock or punches as far as I could see.
Yes but the charge againt the Tyrone and Armagh players now was 'contributing to a melee'. The strikes is a different charge, it's bizarre nobody in the Kerry/Dublin melee was charged with 'contributing to a melee'. There is finally some comments about consistency in some aspects of the media, those with a narrative of some bias has some evidence in my opinion when you study the charges or lack of in the three melees. I never wanted to believe it but there is a problem that needs looking at.
'contributing to a melee', is this from the refs report or what the media are typing? All the suspensions so far have been as a result of cat 4 infractions. Plenty in 2 of the melee's, none in the Kerry / Dublin melee.
Ah JoG, you need to quit with the realism and let these wallow in their self pity and misguided nonsense!!
The 'contributing to a melee' rabbit hole that a few of them have gone down is hilarious. The only people banned from the Tyrone game and Donegal game were banned for violent conduct - either throwing digs or engaging in headlocks. The fact it was part of a melee might change some of the technicalities, but the only ones who get banned and the ones who were violent.
"Oh but why weren't Kerry or Dublin lads banned for 'contributing to a melee'?" they've been squealing.
Well it's because they didn't throw punches or engage in headlocks !! It's not rocket science lads.
But it's great entertainment seeing them continue to whinge that it's the same thing and their lads are only banned because of anti-northern bias or media witch-hunt 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Does the contributing to a melee mention headlocks or Strikes? Or have you decided to do an interpretation that suits your view?
Dub no 10 also grabs someone around the neck, so I think your on thin ice with that anyway.
Armagh might be better off saying to hell with this game and playing a mckenna cup side!
Quote from: thewobbler on April 05, 2022, 09:28:32 PM
Quote from: Ronnie on April 05, 2022, 09:14:53 PM
If video evidence is being used to cite Rian O'Neill then I hope they use it for further citations including McGee's provocation during play. This was clearly premeditated. Furthermore the invasion of Donegal's substitutes & backroom team who can't be easily identified due to bibs covering numbers has convinced me it was premeditated & orchestrated. Result. Objective attained.
I agree. Last time I was there a few weeks ago someone called me a Nordie bastard too. Let's just fill Donegal with Semtex and blow it all into the sea. It's only fair.
Ah FFS, someone from
the most northern county in Ireland was jibing you about being a Nordie? Less of the explosives, and more of the explosive retort to nonsense like that! :P ;)
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2022, 10:57:10 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 05, 2022, 09:28:32 PM
Quote from: Ronnie on April 05, 2022, 09:14:53 PM
If video evidence is being used to cite Rian O'Neill then I hope they use it for further citations including McGee's provocation during play. This was clearly premeditated. Furthermore the invasion of Donegal's substitutes & backroom team who can't be easily identified due to bibs covering numbers has convinced me it was premeditated & orchestrated. Result. Objective attained.
I agree. Last time I was there a few weeks ago someone called me a Nordie bastard too. Let's just fill Donegal with Semtex and blow it all into the sea. It's only fair.
Ah FFS, someone from the most northern county in Ireland was jibing you about being a Nordie? Less of the explosives, and more of the explosive retort to nonsense like that! :P ;)
Do you think the Wobbler was being serious? Flann would not approve.
Quote from: JP on April 05, 2022, 10:50:54 PM
Armagh might be better off saying to hell with this game and playing a mckenna cup side!
Yip treat the game for what it is - a sham and give a few lads a run out.
Quote from: Average Score on April 06, 2022, 09:02:11 AM
Quote from: JP on April 05, 2022, 10:50:54 PM
Armagh might be better off saying to hell with this game and playing a mckenna cup side!
Yip treat the game for what it is - a sham and give a few lads a run out.
And what would that achieve?
Go there. Pick the best team available. Give it our best and see what happens.
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 06, 2022, 01:00:09 PM
Quote from: Average Score on April 06, 2022, 09:02:11 AM
Quote from: JP on April 05, 2022, 10:50:54 PM
Armagh might be better off saying to hell with this game and playing a mckenna cup side!
Yip treat the game for what it is - a sham and give a few lads a run out.
And what would that achieve?
Go there. Pick the best team available. Give it our best and see what happens.
Its better than holding your breath until you turn blue I guess! ;D
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 06, 2022, 01:00:09 PM
Quote from: Average Score on April 06, 2022, 09:02:11 AM
Quote from: JP on April 05, 2022, 10:50:54 PM
Armagh might be better off saying to hell with this game and playing a mckenna cup side!
Yip treat the game for what it is - a sham and give a few lads a run out.
And what would that achieve?
Go there. Pick the best team available. Give it our best and see what happens.
The GAA are the most non transparent organization going, 5 bans no reason why - if there was dangerous play at the time and the ref saw those 5 hit, strike, headlock, neckrolls, clothelines, binbags, handbags whatever walk up to each and give them a red card don't listen to the false outrage and then try to send a message out, surely everyone should know why they are banned. One doesn't get banned from anything else in life without a reason and if video evidence is now being used, use it for everyone, they are now acting like lord and master again how dare you appeal we will show you - sending a message - ffs if they had proper rules and applied them consistently folk would know the message, how comes those 6 players and those 6 players alone are banned. Is there no punishment for bib wearers for officials for each county, treat the game with the contempt it deserves a third of the team down, why risk players in an unwinable game - build for the qualifiers.
I believe armagh should exhaust the appeals process right through to the DRA as this will get to the bottom of the decision regarding Rian and how he was the only one cited on video evidence .
Quote from: naka on April 06, 2022, 03:59:28 PM
I believe armagh should exhaust the appeals process right through to the DRA as this will get to the bottom of the decision regarding Rian and how he was the only one cited on video evidence .
Ignorance is bliss.
The role of the DRA is not to lay dispute an incident. It is to adjudicate on whether the process was followed correctly. As such it is instigated almost always as a challenge to the severity of a punishment, rather than to overturn it.
If Oisin O'Neill gets a one match ban for striking/violent behaviour, then that is the minimum sentence that can be applied. So there is no point in appealing the suspension.
Therefore everything would have to be channelled into proving either a) he didn't do it (which should be as good as impossible) or b) a technicality with the rule book.... which is much harder to do these days as administrators now have the opportunity to correct clerical errors during the process.
Hence there's a very good reason why you never hear of the DRA these days. It's not worth anyone's while chasing up that tree. Not for open and shut cases anyhow.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 06, 2022, 04:20:14 PM
Quote from: naka on April 06, 2022, 03:59:28 PM
I believe armagh should exhaust the appeals process right through to the DRA as this will get to the bottom of the decision regarding Rian and how he was the only one cited on video evidence .
Ignorance is bliss.
The role of the DRA is not to lay dispute an incident. It is to adjudicate on whether the process was followed correctly. As such it is instigated almost always as a challenge to the severity of a punishment, rather than to overturn it.
If Oisin O'Neill gets a one match ban for striking/violent behaviour, then that is the minimum sentence that can be applied. So there is no point in appealing the suspension.
Therefore everything would have to be channelled into proving that either a) he didn't do it (which should be as good as I'm possible) or b) a technicality with the rule book.... which is much harder to do these days as administrators now have the opportunity to correct clerical errors during the process.
Hence there's a very good reason why you never hear of the DRA these days. It's not worth anyone's while chasing up that tree. Not for open and shut cases anyhow.
Feck me have we lost another one and him not even playing! They will be banning Stevie from Killevey next.
Quote from: naka on April 06, 2022, 03:59:28 PM
I believe armagh should exhaust the appeals process right through to the DRA as this will get to the bottom of the decision regarding Rian and how he was the only one cited on video evidence .
I'd say it's a given Armagh will take this to the DRA at the very least; it might even go further especially when the legal eyes get deep into the process. Armagh have effectively been taken out of the Ulster Championship so don't have a lot to lose pushing it to the legal/appeal limit.
Quote from: Gael80 on April 06, 2022, 04:43:01 PM
Quote from: naka on April 06, 2022, 03:59:28 PM
I believe armagh should exhaust the appeals process right through to the DRA as this will get to the bottom of the decision regarding Rian and how he was the only one cited on video evidence .
I'd say it's a given Armagh will take this to the DRA at the very least; it might even go further especially when the legal eyes get deep into the process. Armagh have effectively been taken out of the Ulster Championship so don't have a lot to lose pushing it to the legal/appeal limit.
Far from over and we're just right. Still have a feeling we'll beat Donegal with or without the 4 lads.
Quote from: Gael80 on April 06, 2022, 04:43:01 PM
Quote from: naka on April 06, 2022, 03:59:28 PM
I believe armagh should exhaust the appeals process right through to the DRA as this will get to the bottom of the decision regarding Rian and how he was the only one cited on video evidence .
I'd say it's a given Armagh will take this to the DRA at the very least; it might even go further especially when the legal eyes get deep into the process. Armagh have effectively been taken out of the Ulster Championship so don't have a lot to lose pushing it to the legal/appeal limit.
Well it can't go further in order to take a case to the DRA you must agree to be bound by the verdict of the DRA. As Wobbler says it's harder to challenge cases to that level now but I don't agree with the assessment that is only the two types of cases wobbler has cited. That said even thinking about the DRA at this stage is putting the cart before the horse there's a long way to go yet I hope.
It strikes me as shambolic though that no one seems to actually know what offence these players are facing. Some here are speculating it's a category iii infraction for contributing to a melee. Others saying it's category iv. I think fans are entitled to know what exactly is being alleged. Particularly if as is being alleged the GAA want to cut out this sort of thing.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 06, 2022, 04:57:56 PM
Quote from: Gael80 on April 06, 2022, 04:43:01 PM
Quote from: naka on April 06, 2022, 03:59:28 PM
I believe armagh should exhaust the appeals process right through to the DRA as this will get to the bottom of the decision regarding Rian and how he was the only one cited on video evidence .
I'd say it's a given Armagh will take this to the DRA at the very least; it might even go further especially when the legal eyes get deep into the process. Armagh have effectively been taken out of the Ulster Championship so don't have a lot to lose pushing it to the legal/appeal limit.
Well it can't go further in order to take a case to the DRA you must agree to be bound by the verdict of the DRA. As Wobbler says it's harder to challenge cases to that level now but I don't agree with the assessment that is only the two types of cases wobbler has cited. That said even thinking about the DRA at this stage is putting the cart before the horse there's a long way to go yet I hope.
It strikes me as shambolic though that no one seems to actually know what offence these players are facing. Some here are speculating it's a category iii infraction for contributing to a melee. Others saying it's category iv. I think fans are entitled to know what exactly is being alleged. Particularly if as is being alleged the GAA want to cut out this sort of thing.
True, but the lawyers will know already and are likely as we text going through the charges and process with a forensic eye. Lets hope the championship isn't impacted by legal/appeal issues, but and I might be wrong, I think Armagh will challenge this. Making GAA units be bound by a DRA decision is only a GAA rule, this could always be challenged in a legal sense if the will was there.
Quote from: Gael80 on April 06, 2022, 04:43:01 PM
Quote from: naka on April 06, 2022, 03:59:28 PM
I believe armagh should exhaust the appeals process right through to the DRA as this will get to the bottom of the decision regarding Rian and how he was the only one cited on video evidence .
I'd say it's a given Armagh will take this to the DRA at the very least; it might even go further especially when the legal eyes get deep into the process. Armagh have effectively been taken out of the Ulster Championship so don't have a lot to lose pushing it to the legal/appeal limit.
"Go even further?"
Where to? Michael D Higgins? The Pope?
——
"Armagh have been taken out of the Ulster Chanpionship".
Is there ever been a few seconds since last Sunday that a wee thought crossed your head that Armagh maybe, just maybe, we're the masters of their own downfall here?
——
There's exceptional ignorance of rule books. There's outlandish hope based on nothing at all. Therss extraordinary levels of bias. There's the type of militancy which only should be displayed when others have your back. And on this thread they're all merging into one unholy fucken mess.
I'm sure Michael D would lend a sympathetic ear to an appeal recounting the long list of injustices inflicted upon the northern GAA brethren by RTE, the media in general, the Croke Park politburo and the cabal of referees.
As oisin kindly told tyrone, don't appeal and take yer medicine
What irks me the most about the whole process is the role the media play in it. If the ref. had an issue on the day, issue the red cards there and then and it is clear to everyone why it occurred. However, when RTE and their pundits decide to show 5 mins of a handbags vs 30 secs of the actual game, then we have every Tom, Dick and Harry calling for suspensions ... that's what pisses me off. Armagh are correct to challenge this all the way.
Quote from: Gael80 on April 06, 2022, 05:05:50 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 06, 2022, 04:57:56 PM
Quote from: Gael80 on April 06, 2022, 04:43:01 PM
Quote from: naka on April 06, 2022, 03:59:28 PM
I believe armagh should exhaust the appeals process right through to the DRA as this will get to the bottom of the decision regarding Rian and how he was the only one cited on video evidence .
I'd say it's a given Armagh will take this to the DRA at the very least; it might even go further especially when the legal eyes get deep into the process. Armagh have effectively been taken out of the Ulster Championship so don't have a lot to lose pushing it to the legal/appeal limit.
Well it can't go further in order to take a case to the DRA you must agree to be bound by the verdict of the DRA. As Wobbler says it's harder to challenge cases to that level now but I don't agree with the assessment that is only the two types of cases wobbler has cited. That said even thinking about the DRA at this stage is putting the cart before the horse there's a long way to go yet I hope.
It strikes me as shambolic though that no one seems to actually know what offence these players are facing. Some here are speculating it's a category iii infraction for contributing to a melee. Others saying it's category iv. I think fans are entitled to know what exactly is being alleged. Particularly if as is being alleged the GAA want to cut out this sort of thing.
True, but the lawyers will know already and are likely as we text going through the charges and process with a forensic eye. Lets hope the championship isn't impacted by legal/appeal issues, but and I might be wrong, I think Armagh will challenge this. Making GAA units be bound by a DRA decision is only a GAA rule, this could always be challenged in a legal sense if the will was there.
Well I hope Armagh have a team of lawyers looking it although if they do I don't know who they are. Not convinced any court would give much credence to a county agreeing to be bound by an arbitration panel and then seeking to have that set aside. As I say we aren't there yet though.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 06, 2022, 04:57:56 PM
Quote from: Gael80 on April 06, 2022, 04:43:01 PM
Quote from: naka on April 06, 2022, 03:59:28 PM
I believe armagh should exhaust the appeals process right through to the DRA as this will get to the bottom of the decision regarding Rian and how he was the only one cited on video evidence .
I'd say it's a given Armagh will take this to the DRA at the very least; it might even go further especially when the legal eyes get deep into the process. Armagh have effectively been taken out of the Ulster Championship so don't have a lot to lose pushing it to the legal/appeal limit.
Well it can't go further in order to take a case to the DRA you must agree to be bound by the verdict of the DRA. As Wobbler says it's harder to challenge cases to that level now but I don't agree with the assessment that is only the two types of cases wobbler has cited. That said even thinking about the DRA at this stage is putting the cart before the horse there's a long way to go yet I hope.
It strikes me as shambolic though that no one seems to actually know what offence these players are facing. Some here are speculating it's a category iii infraction for contributing to a melee. Others saying it's category iv. I think fans are entitled to know what exactly is being alleged. Particularly if as is being alleged the GAA want to cut out this sort of thing.
Contributing to a melee is cat 3, sending off, nothing more as far as I know ie suspensions etc. Cat 4, striking etc is a banning offence
I haven't looked at the categories in a while but I thought striking with minimal force was also category iii.
The point I'm making though is that we are speculating here. The appropriate bodies really should have press releases setting out exactly what the proposed suspensions are for.
Transparency in the GAA, that would never happen, it's a nonsense.
Does something need to be done about these hanger on types at matches
Have the Armagh fans considered chaining themselves to a gate somewhere?
Quote from: thewobbler on April 06, 2022, 04:20:14 PM
Quote from: naka on April 06, 2022, 03:59:28 PM
I believe armagh should exhaust the appeals process right through to the DRA as this will get to the bottom of the decision regarding Rian and how he was the only one cited on video evidence .
Ignorance is bliss.
The role of the DRA is not to lay dispute an incident. It is to adjudicate on whether the process was followed correctly. As such it is instigated almost always as a challenge to the severity of a punishment, rather than to overturn it.
If Oisin O'Neill gets a one match ban for striking/violent behaviour, then that is the minimum sentence that can be applied. So there is no point in appealing the suspension.
Therefore everything would have to be channelled into proving either a) he didn't do it (which should be as good as impossible) or b) a technicality with the rule book.... which is much harder to do these days as administrators now have the opportunity to correct clerical errors during the process.
Hence there's a very good reason why you never hear of the DRA these days. It's not worth anyone's while chasing up that tree. Not for open and shut cases anyhow.
Wobbler as I said it's about the process
The dra will review the ccc process and what they reviewed and give transparency to their decision ,
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 06, 2022, 07:24:37 PM
Whatever about the other suspensions, O'Neill punched a fella in the head. He has no case at all.
Aw come on.
Probably looking you to show the punch to the head. Comparable to Murphys it was pretty innocuous.
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 06, 2022, 09:41:45 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 06, 2022, 08:19:55 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 06, 2022, 07:24:37 PM
Whatever about the other suspensions, O'Neill punched a fella in the head. He has no case at all.
Aw come on.
I'm not sure what you mean by this?
Was the tamest punch I ever saw now and didnt even land.
Some sneaky Donegal punches threw too but don't let the orange blindness cloud ones judgement.
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 06, 2022, 09:52:29 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 06, 2022, 09:41:45 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 06, 2022, 08:19:55 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 06, 2022, 07:24:37 PM
Whatever about the other suspensions, O'Neill punched a fella in the head. He has no case at all.
Aw come on.
I'm not sure what you mean by this?
Was the tamest punch I ever saw now and didnt even land.
"Striking or attempting to strike with arm, elbow,
hand or knee with minimal force."
Penalties:
(1) Minimum - A One Match Suspension in the same
Code and at the same Level, applicable to the
next game in the same Competition, even if that
game occurs in the following year's competition.
Quote from: Eire90 on April 06, 2022, 07:03:50 PM
Does something need to be done about these hanger on types at matches
The Donegal chap in the bib with the number 1 on it, the Donegal man with the blue shorts (sub keeper?), surely these boys and the rest of the non-playing men need hefty suspensions? These hooers should be nowhere near a player, never mind laying a hand on them. It's these boys that kept the melee going.
Make an example of a team/s where the sub bench and backroom team take part in melee with hefty repercussions and it'll soon stop
It is at most a raised arm in which there is minimal contact, go through the rest frame by frame you will see worse. BTW the Sunday Game ffs.
I definitely don't think it's a blatant punch but it certainly gives rise to a case to answer. If it was cited in the referees as a strike or attempted strike then I wouldn't expect that footage to over turn it but similarly I don't think it's conclusive to ground a charge.
I'd imagine that any appeals will focus on the inherent lack of fairness and the flawed decision to cite one individual.
Quote from: Ronnie on April 06, 2022, 11:01:34 PM
I'd imagine that any appeals will focus on the inherent lack of fairness and the flawed decision to cite one individual.
That's not how it works.
Quote from: JoG2 on April 06, 2022, 10:02:43 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 06, 2022, 09:52:29 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 06, 2022, 09:41:45 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 06, 2022, 08:19:55 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 06, 2022, 07:24:37 PM
Whatever about the other suspensions, O'Neill punched a fella in the head. He has no case at all.
Aw come on.
I'm not sure what you mean by this?
Was the tamest punch I ever saw now and didnt even land.
"Striking or attempting to strike with arm, elbow,
hand or knee with minimal force."
Penalties:
(1) Minimum - A One Match Suspension in the same
Code and at the same Level, applicable to the
next game in the same Competition, even if that
game occurs in the following year's competition.
Quote from: Eire90 on April 06, 2022, 07:03:50 PM
Does something need to be done about these hanger on types at matches
The Donegal chap in the bib with the number 1 on it, the Donegal man with the blue shorts (sub keeper?), surely these boys and the rest of the non-playing men need hefty suspensions? These hooers should be nowhere near a player, never mind laying a hand on them. It's these boys that kept the melee going.
Make an example of a team/s where the sub bench and backroom team take part in melee with hefty repercussions and it'll soon stop
This ... what happens in the league should stay in the league.
Its hard to actually pick out any bad incidents at all, that O'Neill one was more a of a fling of the arm and you can't even tell if it connected.
Is Mackin out for the match too?
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 07, 2022, 08:14:43 AM
Every punch is "a fling of the arm". It wasn't a haymaker but it was a jab in the head.
It 100% is a red card in Gaelic Football and deserves a suspension.
Yeah but not every fling of the arm is a strike or attempt to strike. For example it wasn't a red card when done by Murphy during the match. It's certainly not as clear cut as you would make it out. It is a fling of the arm and may have been an attempt to strike but it doesn't seem to be aimed at the Donegal 10 and O'Neills movement both before and after are not the movements of someone attempting to strike an opponent. So for me it's a judgement call. If the ref had adjudged it a red I don't think it would be overturned but at the same time I don't think it's conclusive enough to ground a charge. Again though are we not speculating what offence he's been charged with?
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 06, 2022, 07:24:37 PM
Whatever about the other suspensions, O'Neill punched a fella in the head. He has no case at all.
It was hardly a punch but I agree he doesn't really have a leg to stand on if his were appealed
Quote from: David McKeown on April 07, 2022, 08:45:05 AM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 07, 2022, 08:14:43 AM
Every punch is "a fling of the arm". It wasn't a haymaker but it was a jab in the head.
It 100% is a red card in Gaelic Football and deserves a suspension.
Yeah but not every fling of the arm is a strike or attempt to strike. For example it wasn't a red card when done by Murphy during the match. It's certainly not as clear cut as you would make it out. It is a fling of the arm and may have been an attempt to strike but it doesn't seem to be aimed at the Donegal 10 and O'Neills movement both before and after are not the movements of someone attempting to strike an opponent. So for me it's a judgement call. If the ref had adjudged it a red I don't think it would be overturned but at the same time I don't think it's conclusive enough to ground a charge. Again though are we not speculating what offence he's been charged with?
True, plus there is some two handed high chest pushes that are going to hurt more than the like of what O'Neills would have done but never a word is said about them. They are only flings of the arms too.
Quote from: JP on April 05, 2022, 10:50:54 PM
Armagh might be better off saying to hell with this game and playing a mckenna cup side!
In fairness, exiting Ulster in the first round is what they have specialised in under McGeeney. Wooden spoon candidates every year.
Quote from: KickPass on April 07, 2022, 09:16:42 AM
Quote from: JP on April 05, 2022, 10:50:54 PM
Armagh might be better off saying to hell with this game and playing a mckenna cup side!
In fairness, exiting Ulster in the first round is what they have specialised in under McGeeney. Wooden spoon candidates every year.
Gonna make it all the sweeter when we turn over Donegal, men missing or not!
Quote from: balladmaker on April 06, 2022, 05:49:46 PM
What irks me the most about the whole process is the role the media play in it. If the ref. had an issue on the day, issue the red cards there and then and it is clear to everyone why it occurred. However, when RTE and their pundits decide to show 5 mins of a handbags vs 30 secs of the actual game, then we have every Tom, Dick and Harry calling for suspensions ... that's what pisses me off. Armagh are correct to challenge this all the way.
I think you are completely wrong. And I say that as an Armagh fan.
The game was over. Ref and his team stood back and tried to observe the incident. No need to issue cards. Not saying that he couldn't issue card just that there was no need to. Between the officials and the camera some issues were picked up. Others were not.
When did this 5 mins on RTE happen? As stated elsewhere it was not on the Sunday night programme.
The incident is mainly handbags and those only involved in handbags are not being sanctioned. But the incident was not exclusively handbags. The incident being generally handbags cannot be a defence to those who take it a step beyond handbags.
Has the thing that is pissing you off actually happened?
Do the grounds for appeal that you have outlined actually exist as grounds of appeal and do they reflect things that have actually happened and been captured by either the camera or the officials?
As fans I think we are embarrassing ourselves and our county.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 07, 2022, 08:45:05 AM
not every fling of the arm is a strike or attempt to strike. For example it wasn't a red card when done by Murphy during the match. It's certainly not as clear cut as you would make it out.
David
Do you think Murphy wasn't sent off because the officials decided that some punches are not red card punches or because they didn't see the incident?
Quote from: LCohen on April 07, 2022, 09:35:41 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 07, 2022, 08:45:05 AM
not every fling of the arm is a strike or attempt to strike. For example it wasn't a red card when done by Murphy during the match. It's certainly not as clear cut as you would make it out.
David
Do you think Murphy wasn't sent off because the officials decided that some punches are not red card punches or because they didn't see the incident?
Did Murphy throw a punch during the game as well?
Quote from: LCohen on April 07, 2022, 09:31:58 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 06, 2022, 05:49:46 PM
What irks me the most about the whole process is the role the media play in it. If the ref. had an issue on the day, issue the red cards there and then and it is clear to everyone why it occurred. However, when RTE and their pundits decide to show 5 mins of a handbags vs 30 secs of the actual game, then we have every Tom, Dick and Harry calling for suspensions ... that's what pisses me off. Armagh are correct to challenge this all the way.
I think you are completely wrong. And I say that as an Armagh fan.
Fair enough, we all have opinions and are entitled to them.
The game was over. Ref and his team stood back and tried to observe the incident. No need to issue cards. Not saying that he couldn't issue card just that there was no need to. Between the officials and the camera some issues were picked up. Others were not
So let's have full transparency then and remove the ambiguity from the situation. Let's have it explained as to the merits of what those who have been cited did vs those who were not cited.
When did this 5 mins on RTE happen? As stated elsewhere it was not on the Sunday night programme.
I've the series of League Sunday recorded, they focused a lot more on the afters than on the game itself, I'll time it later if I get the chance :)
The incident is mainly handbags and those only involved in handbags are not being sanctioned. But the incident was not exclusively handbags. The incident being generally handbags cannot be a defence to those who take it a step beyond handbags.
Again, let's have the transparency then.
Has the thing that is pissing you off actually happened?
I feel that it has ... the fact that RTE, both TV and Podcast, show a bias to some situations vs others depending on who is playing pisses me off.
Do the grounds for appeal that you have outlined actually exist as grounds of appeal and do they reflect things that have actually happened and been captured by either the camera or the officials?
I was at the game, I've watched the available footage although limited .. I'm looking at the situation in the context of what I observed being there. Yes, I do think some of the appeals have a chance of success.
As fans I think we are embarrassing ourselves and our county.
Wise up, this is a GAA Discussion Board, not The Hague ;D
Armagh finding out what it has been like for Tyrone over this past 20 years. Armagh avoided scrutiny since they had been in doldrums this past 20 years.
No other teams experience the same retrospective actions like Tyrone have over this last 20 years. From making up rules to try and ban players to incessant media scrutiny were every incident is blown out of all proportion and poured over ad nauseum. It is the most blatant anti Northern bias. Every All Ireland Tyrone have won should count double given what we have to go through to win it.
Quote from: trailer on April 07, 2022, 12:12:35 PM
Armagh finding out what it has been like for Tyrone over this past 20 years. Armagh avoided scrutiny since they had been in doldrums this past 20 years.
No other teams experience the same retrospective actions like Tyrone have over this last 20 years. From making up rules to try and ban players to incessant media scrutiny were every incident is blown out of all proportion and poured over ad nauseum. It is the most blatant anti Northern bias. Every All Ireland Tyrone have won should count double given what we have to go through to win it.
Poor Tyrone.
Quote from: trailer on April 07, 2022, 12:12:35 PM
Armagh finding out what it has been like for Tyrone over this past 20 years. Armagh avoided scrutiny since they had been in doldrums this past 20 years.
No other teams experience the same retrospective actions like Tyrone have over this last 20 years. From making up rules to try and ban players to incessant media scrutiny were every incident is blown out of all proportion and poured over ad nauseum. It is the most blatant anti Northern bias. Every All Ireland Tyrone have won should count double given what we have to go through to win it.
For once I agree. Kerry's new found "intensity" as Spillane calls it, that was on display vs Armagh looks very similar to Tyrone and Armagh's puke football.
Maybe the Tyrone and Armagh boys should start a separate thread on their respective plights. There they could commiserate and share stories of gallant good fights against the odds over the years.
And leave the rest of us out of it.
Jaysus I didn't think I'd ever find a county to dislike more than Tyrone but these Donegal hoors are giving it a good go
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
Would see through it if there'd been a proper brawl and lads got hurt but ffs let it go.
Kerry, Mayo or Dublin would definitely not have had people suspended for that.
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 07, 2022, 12:25:48 PM
Jaysus I didn't think I'd ever find a county to dislike more than Tyrone but these Donegal hoors are giving it a good go
You probably should look at the common denominator, armagh acting like hard men 😜
Quote from: Cavan19 on April 07, 2022, 12:18:06 PM
Quote from: trailer on April 07, 2022, 12:12:35 PM
Armagh finding out what it has been like for Tyrone over this past 20 years. Armagh avoided scrutiny since they had been in doldrums this past 20 years.
No other teams experience the same retrospective actions like Tyrone have over this last 20 years. From making up rules to try and ban players to incessant media scrutiny were every incident is blown out of all proportion and poured over ad nauseum. It is the most blatant anti Northern bias. Every All Ireland Tyrone have won should count double given what we have to go through to win it.
Poor Tyrone.
Great contribution. Your insight and analysis is top notch 😂
Things that continue to amuse on this thread:
1. Blissfully ignoring that the Armagh squad should have known better than any other players in Ireland about how the GAA is tidying up its act - by simple virtue of being participants this season in a previous melee which was dealt with forcefully by administrators.
2. That Tyrone and Fergal Logan's lack of manoeuvring regarding their punishments from said melee, really should be a clear signal that what happened in hearings between 1884 and 2021, is no longer relevant, and you might as well discuss how netball handles disciplinary processes.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 07, 2022, 12:45:48 PM
Things that continue to amuse on this thread:
1. Blissfully ignoring that the Armagh squad should have known better than any other players in Ireland about how the GAA is tidying up its act - by simple virtue of being participants this season in a previous melee which was dealt with forcefully by administrators.
2. That Tyrone and Fergal Logan's lack of manoeuvring regarding their punishments from said melee, really should be a clear signal that what happened in hearings between 1884 and 2021, is no longer relevant, and you might as well discuss how netball handles disciplinary processes.
You would be quite the expert in hearings over the past number of years Wobbler lol
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 07, 2022, 12:38:14 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on April 07, 2022, 12:18:06 PM
Quote from: trailer on April 07, 2022, 12:12:35 PM
Armagh finding out what it has been like for Tyrone over this past 20 years. Armagh avoided scrutiny since they had been in doldrums this past 20 years.
No other teams experience the same retrospective actions like Tyrone have over this last 20 years. From making up rules to try and ban players to incessant media scrutiny were every incident is blown out of all proportion and poured over ad nauseum. It is the most blatant anti Northern bias. Every All Ireland Tyrone have won should count double given what we have to go through to win it.
Poor Tyrone.
Great contribution. Your insight and analysis is top notch 😂
Thanks you sir
Quote from: balladmaker on April 07, 2022, 10:24:39 AM
Quote from: LCohen on April 07, 2022, 09:31:58 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 06, 2022, 05:49:46 PM
What irks me the most about the whole process is the role the media play in it. If the ref. had an issue on the day, issue the red cards there and then and it is clear to everyone why it occurred. However, when RTE and their pundits decide to show 5 mins of a handbags vs 30 secs of the actual game, then we have every Tom, Dick and Harry calling for suspensions ... that's what pisses me off. Armagh are correct to challenge this all the way.
I think you are completely wrong. And I say that as an Armagh fan.
Fair enough, we all have opinions and are entitled to them.
Well some of this factual. Was it 5 mins or less? Was it only handbags or was there more in that footage? Have the media had a role in this or not? These are all facts and some of them are provable. Everyone is entiltled to hold an opinion but some opinions are wrong
Quote from: balladmaker on April 07, 2022, 10:24:39 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 06, 2022, 05:49:46 PM
The game was over. Ref and his team stood back and tried to observe the incident. No need to issue cards. Not saying that he couldn't issue card just that there was no need to. Between the officials and the camera some issues were picked up. Others were not
So let's have full transparency then and remove the ambiguity from the situation. Let's have it explained as to the merits of what those who have been cited did vs those who were not cited.
We cant rule out that there has been transparency. Are you saying for certain that the players and management have not been told what they are accused of and what the evidence agsinst them is?
If is publication to the public that is the test of transaparency the I trust that our county board will make a public statement on the basis of their appeals - the Ciaran Mackin one will be good.
Quote from: balladmaker on April 07, 2022, 10:24:39 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 06, 2022, 05:49:46 PM
When did this 5 mins on RTE happen? As stated elsewhere it was not on the Sunday night programme.
I've the series of League Sunday recorded, they focused a lot more on the afters than on the game itself, I'll time it later if I get the chance :)
Have a look then
Quote from: balladmaker on April 07, 2022, 10:24:39 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 06, 2022, 05:49:46 PM
The incident is mainly handbags and those only involved in handbags are not being sanctioned. But the incident was not exclusively handbags. The incident being generally handbags cannot be a defence to those who take it a step beyond handbags.
Again, let's have the transparency then.
See above.
Quote from: balladmaker on April 07, 2022, 10:24:39 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 06, 2022, 05:49:46 PM
Has the thing that is pissing you off actually happened?
I feel that it has ... the fact that RTE, both TV and Podcast, show a bias to some situations vs others depending on who is playing pisses me off.
You "feel" that it has. What facts are these feelings based on?
How would you react if the GAA response to your call fro transparency was to state that the the disciplinary authorities just "felt" that the punishments were warranted?
Quote from: balladmaker on April 07, 2022, 10:24:39 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 06, 2022, 05:49:46 PM
Do the grounds for appeal that you have outlined actually exist as grounds of appeal and do they reflect things that have actually happened and been captured by either the camera or the officials?
I was at the game, I've watched the available footage although limited .. I'm looking at the situation in the context of what I observed being there. Yes, I do think some of the appeals have a chance of success.
The GAA disciplinary authorities are working on what was visible by the officials and the camera. That won't be everything that occurred. What else can they do? Should we be appealing Mackin's suspension? I say Mackin as we all know he is guilty. I am not saying a team should never appeal but there has to be proper grounds for an appeal.
Quote from: balladmaker on April 07, 2022, 10:24:39 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 06, 2022, 05:49:46 PM
As fans I think we are embarrassing ourselves and our county.
Wise up, this is a GAA Discussion Board, not The Hague ;D
The Hague?? Where does that come from? We have all read some frankly embarrassing stuff that never elevates itself above a childish strop. This is the fans I am talking about. Apart from appealing the Mackin decision i am not criticising the County Board (though that could change if details emerge).
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 07, 2022, 12:20:37 PM
Quote from: trailer on April 07, 2022, 12:12:35 PM
Armagh finding out what it has been like for Tyrone over this past 20 years. Armagh avoided scrutiny since they had been in doldrums this past 20 years.
No other teams experience the same retrospective actions like Tyrone have over this last 20 years. From making up rules to try and ban players to incessant media scrutiny were every incident is blown out of all proportion and poured over ad nauseum. It is the most blatant anti Northern bias. Every All Ireland Tyrone have won should count double given what we have to go through to win it.
For once I agree. Kerry's new found "intensity" as Spillane calls it, that was on display vs Armagh looks very similar to Tyrone and Armagh's puke football.
They are 18 years behind with their thoughts... ;) ;) but could catch up very quickly. Interesting that a lot of Kerry folk at the Tyrone game appeared to not understand the game plan and were openly and loudly frustrated at the new Kerry approach. Kerry need to be patient with this management team and in particular Paddy Tally who seems to be on top of things down there.
Quote from: LCohen on April 07, 2022, 09:35:41 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 07, 2022, 08:45:05 AM
not every fling of the arm is a strike or attempt to strike. For example it wasn't a red card when done by Murphy during the match. It's certainly not as clear cut as you would make it out.
David
Do you think Murphy wasn't sent off because the officials decided that some punches are not red card punches or because they didn't see the incident?
There were two different incidents that I saw involving Murphy. The first is when Grugan kicked him (I thought Grugan was very lucky to be booked. On that occasion Murphy flung his arm (to use the term that's been used on here) in the direction of Forker who he clearly felt was responsible for the kick. He then got up and pushed Forker twice and Forker pushed him back. It was clearly seen by the referee who spoke to all three players involved (booking Grugan).
After the match Murphy then hit Grugan round the back of the head. The linesman appeared to me to have a very good view of that and soon split up Murphy, two other Donegal players and Grugan. So whilst I can't be certain the officials saw the incidents I'd be shocked if they didn't.
Be shocked they didnt.
Did Murphy not get suspended. I expected Riain O Neill would get a ban, after they missed it at the Tyrone game, it tends to come back on the lads.
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 04:00:59 PM
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
Oneill still gave them more than enough to go on though... not as if mchugh has the final call but the evidence of a "strike" is there unfortunately for neutral fans.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 04:00:59 PM
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
You do know that CCC consists of many people, but each review/decision is only carried out by a smaller group of people with no conflicts of interests?
The lack of knowledge on this thread is astonishing. A a stranger to our games would be led to believe that there are no rules or procedures at all.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 07, 2022, 04:06:56 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 04:00:59 PM
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
You do know that CCC consists of many people, but each review/decision is only carried out by a smaller group of people with no conflicts of interests?
The lack of knowledge on this thread is astonishing. A a stranger to our games would be led to believe that there are no rules or procedures at all.
Straight facts
mc hugh who is on the ccc would be obliged to excuse himself as has a conflict.
the argument is the process around why o neill was the only one picked up post the referee report given that the video would show a lot more than him.
its all about how teh ccc came to the decision to pick one person.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 07, 2022, 04:06:56 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 04:00:59 PM
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
You do know that CCC consists of many people, but each review/decision is only carried out by a smaller group of people with no conflicts of interests?
The lack of knowledge on this thread is astonishing. A a stranger to our games would be led to believe that there are no rules or procedures at all.
It's not astonishing at all, I doubt if very many people are aware of the internal workings of the CCC. However there is a clear issue in terms of the independence if McHugh is involved in the decision making. Perhaps he is not and was not part of the smaller group making the decision as you suggest. In the absence of any kind of formal communication from the GAA on the matter though, I think people can be forgiven for speculating. The lack of transparency around the incident is causing a lot of this speculation. Nearly 2 weeks on and we still don't know what the original 5 players were issued with bans for or why other players escaped sanctions.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 07, 2022, 04:06:56 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 04:00:59 PM
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
You do know that CCC consists of many people, but each review/decision is only carried out by a smaller group of people with no conflicts of interests?
The lack of knowledge on this thread is astonishing. A a stranger to our games would be led to believe that there are no rules or procedures at all.
QuoteA member of the Competitions Control Committee or Hearings Committee, who is a member of any Unit or has a role in relation to any Member, Team or Unit, involved in the proceedings, shall stand down from prosecuting or adjudicating the case
Page 141 of the rule-book.
There's no way in hell Martin McHugh was involved in any capacity. The rule about conflicts of interest has been in place for aeons.
https://www.gaa.ie/api/pdfs/image/upload/ppactrpwjcyjus1m6dj8.pdf
Also the current rules on video evidence.
Quote(ii) The Hearings Committee shall attach to documentary evidence (including video evidence) such level of reliability as befits it in the circumstances of the Hearing;
(iii) Video evidence introduced by any party shall be admissible provided that:
(a) a copy has been furnished to all other parties within a reasonable period prior to the Hearing, and
(b) the Hearings Committee is satisfied that the video evidence is reliable and unedited;
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 07, 2022, 04:09:17 PM
Quote from: clubman21 on April 07, 2022, 04:04:44 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 04:00:59 PM
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
Oneill still gave them more than enough to go on though... not as if mchugh has the final call but the evidence of a "strike" is there unfortunately for neutral fans.
Exactly. They didn't pull it out of thin air. It is cut & dried.
You may argue that they missed Donegal boys doing things that warrant suspension but Rian O'Neill is getting what he deserves for what he did.
It's far from cut and dried. We also don't know what he is been suspended for.
I have no issue if the players are getting suspended because their actions went further than merely the handbag stuff provided the following criteria are met. Firstly there is sufficient evidence that they went further and crucially they are charged with offences other than contributing to a melee. If both criteria are not met then I have an issue because one of two things have happened.
One either there's no consistency to the nebulous rule of contributing to a melee and a different standard is applied to players not only in different games but even in the same melees. No rule can sensibly exist with such inconsistent application.
Or two. The authorities know these players committed serious offences but don't have the evidence to prove it. As a result theyve ignored fundamental principles of fairness and natural justice to try and punish them regardless. That's an extreme injustice.
Of course it all loops back to. How 11 days after the incident we still don't know for certain what players are charged with is shambolic. Particularly if we want to stop 'this sort of thing'.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 07, 2022, 04:47:54 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 07, 2022, 04:09:17 PM
Quote from: clubman21 on April 07, 2022, 04:04:44 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 04:00:59 PM
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
Oneill still gave them more than enough to go on though... not as if mchugh has the final call but the evidence of a "strike" is there unfortunately for neutral fans.
Exactly. They didn't pull it out of thin air. It is cut & dried.
You may argue that they missed Donegal boys doing things that warrant suspension but Rian O'Neill is getting what he deserves for what he did.
It's far from cut and dried. We also don't know what he is been suspended for.
I have no issue if the players are getting suspended because their actions went further than merely the handbag stuff provided the following criteria are met. Firstly there is sufficient evidence that they went further and crucially they are charged with offences other than contributing to a melee. If both criteria are not met then I have an issue because one of two things have happened.
One either there's no consistency to the nebulous rule of contributing to a melee and a different standard is applied to players not only in different games but even in the same melees. No rule can sensibly exist with such inconsistent application.
Or two. The authorities know these players committed serious offences but don't have the evidence to prove it. As a result theyve ignored fundamental principles of fairness and natural justice to try and punish them regardless. That's an extreme injustice.
Of course it all loops back to. How 11 days after the incident we still don't know for certain what players are charged with is shambolic. Particularly if we want to stop 'this sort of thing'.
Exactly right. The suspensions could be accepted if their rationale was being communicated and everybody could move forward safe in the knowledge of what type of offence warrants a suspension when these kind of skirmishes break out.
How do you define a melee and what defines 'contributing to a melee' and does this always constitute an automatic one match ban going forward? We are left dealing with shades of grey. If the same type of incident happens again will it be pot luck as to who is plucked out for suspension again depending on what angle the referee has at the time. If there is consistency across the board then I still mightn't agree with it but I can accept it.
When you look back on the infamous AI final footage from 1996 and how the referee administered the customary single red card to each side and compare it to this modern day piece of argy bargy, it just underlines the complete lunacy of these suspensions.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 07, 2022, 04:06:56 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 04:00:59 PM
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
You do know that CCC consists of many people, but each review/decision is only carried out by a smaller group of people with no conflicts of interests?
The lack of knowledge on this thread is astonishing. A a stranger to our games would be led to believe that there are no rules or procedures at all.
This is the worst thread I've seen on here so far.
Tyrone took their medicine any chance the Armagh lads might do the same.
Riain O Neill needs to loose the Mc Gregor stuff. He is too good a footballer and one we want to see playing.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 04:00:59 PM
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
Didn't think this thread could get any drafter
Quote from: rrhf on April 07, 2022, 05:58:16 PM
Tyrone took their medicine any chance the Armagh lads might do the same.
Riain O Neill needs to loose the Mc Gregor stuff. He is too good a footballer and one we want to see playing.
Tyrone ones still going on about stuff from years ago, nevermind from anything this year. When exactly did they take their medicine?
Quote from: JoG2 on April 07, 2022, 06:16:37 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 04:00:59 PM
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
Didn't think this thread could get any drafter
You have to admit, if that's true, and it's a big if, it doesn't look well
There are the committees (as of last year - apparently they're three year terms):
Central Competitions Control Committee
Chair: Derek Kent, Taghmon Camross (Wexford), Martin McHugh, CLG Cill Chartha (Donegal), John Halbert, Watergrasshill Hurling Club (Cork), Mary Judge, Caherlistrane GAA (Galway), Séamus Kenny, Simonstown Gaels (Meath).
Central Hearings Committee
Chair: Brian Rennick, Dunderry GAA Club (Meath), Aoife Farrelly, Trim GAA Club (Meath), Micheál Óg McMahon, An Bhoth (Monaghan), Denis Holmes, Oola GAA Club (Limerick), Tod O' Mahony, Kiltimagh GAA (Mayo), Gerry Hagan, Killoe Young Emmets (Longford), Seán Dunnion, Four Masters (Donegal), Gerry Larkin, Tynagh/Abbey-Duniry (Galway), Michael Wadding, Roanmore GAA (Waterford).
Central Appeals Committee
Chair: Matt Shaw, Clonkill GAA Club (Westmeath), Julie Galbraith, Buncrana GAA Club (Donegal), Neil Sheridan, Balla GAA Club (Mayo), Willie O' Connor, Terence O'Rahilly's Tralee (Kerry), Tom Farrell, Tang GAA Club (Westmeath), Eddie Hughes, Raonaithe na Croise (Armagh), Paul Foley, Patrickswell GAA Club (Limerick), Gerry Kavanagh, Stradbally GAA (Laois), Enda Tiernan, Cloone GAA Club (Leitrim).
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/new-gaa-president-delivers-on-gender-promise-in-first-committees-1.4497536 (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/new-gaa-president-delivers-on-gender-promise-in-first-committees-1.4497536)
If McHugh is capable of single-handedly railroading O'Neill in his role, I'm sure Eddie Hughes can get him off. Aren't they the same club?
Quote from: David McKeown on April 07, 2022, 04:47:54 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 07, 2022, 04:09:17 PM
Quote from: clubman21 on April 07, 2022, 04:04:44 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 04:00:59 PM
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
Oneill still gave them more than enough to go on though... not as if mchugh has the final call but the evidence of a "strike" is there unfortunately for neutral fans.
Exactly. They didn't pull it out of thin air. It is cut & dried.
You may argue that they missed Donegal boys doing things that warrant suspension but Rian O'Neill is getting what he deserves for what he did.
It's far from cut and dried. We also don't know what he is been suspended for.
I have no issue if the players are getting suspended because their actions went further than merely the handbag stuff provided the following criteria are met. Firstly there is sufficient evidence that they went further and crucially they are charged with offences other than contributing to a melee. If both criteria are not met then I have an issue because one of two things have happened.
One either there's no consistency to the nebulous rule of contributing to a melee and a different standard is applied to players not only in different games but even in the same melees. No rule can sensibly exist with such inconsistent application.
Or two. The authorities know these players committed serious offences but don't have the evidence to prove it. As a result theyve ignored fundamental principles of fairness and natural justice to try and punish them regardless. That's an extreme injustice.
Of course it all loops back to. How 11 days after the incident we still don't know for certain what players are charged with is shambolic. Particularly if we want to stop 'this sort of thing'.
I agree in particular that what Rian O'Neill did is not ' cut and dried'. If the referee had sent him off the video is unlikely to have cleared him but the pictures I saw do not prove conclusively that he punched anyone. I assume his argument will be that he was pushing an aggressor away ala Forker and Murphy discussed earlier.
It should also be noted that players are entitled to appeal. Conor McManus got his red overturned earlier in league.
Quote from: Throw ball on April 07, 2022, 06:59:25 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 07, 2022, 04:47:54 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 07, 2022, 04:09:17 PM
Quote from: clubman21 on April 07, 2022, 04:04:44 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 04:00:59 PM
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
Oneill still gave them more than enough to go on though... not as if mchugh has the final call but the evidence of a "strike" is there unfortunately for neutral fans.
Exactly. They didn't pull it out of thin air. It is cut & dried.
You may argue that they missed Donegal boys doing things that warrant suspension but Rian O'Neill is getting what he deserves for what he did.
It's far from cut and dried. We also don't know what he is been suspended for.
I have no issue if the players are getting suspended because their actions went further than merely the handbag stuff provided the following criteria are met. Firstly there is sufficient evidence that they went further and crucially they are charged with offences other than contributing to a melee. If both criteria are not met then I have an issue because one of two things have happened.
One either there's no consistency to the nebulous rule of contributing to a melee and a different standard is applied to players not only in different games but even in the same melees. No rule can sensibly exist with such inconsistent application.
Or two. The authorities know these players committed serious offences but don't have the evidence to prove it. As a result theyve ignored fundamental principles of fairness and natural justice to try and punish them regardless. That's an extreme injustice.
Of course it all loops back to. How 11 days after the incident we still don't know for certain what players are charged with is shambolic. Particularly if we want to stop 'this sort of thing'.
I agree in particular that what Rian O'Neill did is not ' cut and dried'. If the referee had sent him off the video is unlikely to have cleared him but the pictures I saw do not prove conclusively that he punched anyone. I assume his argument will be that he was pushing an aggressor away ala Forker and Murphy discussed earlier.
It should also be noted that players are entitled to appeal. Conor McManus got his red overturned earlier in league.
McManus was cut and and dried a clear punch to the stomach, no idea how he got off.
Quote from: greatpoint on April 07, 2022, 05:48:21 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 07, 2022, 04:06:56 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 04:00:59 PM
Martin McHugh is also on the CCC who looked at the Rian O'Neill incident. So we have the father of a Donegal player making decisions on an 'independent' panel who cited and issued a suspension to Armaghs best player. It's parish pump stuff.
You do know that CCC consists of many people, but each review/decision is only carried out by a smaller group of people with no conflicts of interests?
The lack of knowledge on this thread is astonishing. A a stranger to our games would be led to believe that there are no rules or procedures at all.
This is the worst thread I've seen on here so far.
It's so off the wall it's entertaining. The championship (off the pitch) this year should be one for the ages.
No talk of the actual game at all. All this Armagh self pity is , f**king pathetic. Expected better of a proud county. The amount of new hangers on from Armagh on the forum since Armagh started to do well again , to the fore. Bring bck Fearon, all is forgiven.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 08, 2022, 12:49:19 AM
No talk of the actual game at all. All this Armagh self pity is , f**king pathetic. Expected better of a proud county. The amount of new hangers on from Armagh on the forum since Armagh started to do well again , to the fore. Bring bck Fearon, all is forgiven.
I fully expect us to go there and beat them, suspensions or not. The lads are there to come in and are as good as any they are replacing bar Rian. (His brothers not a bad player either so I think we'll be fine)
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 08, 2022, 12:49:19 AM
No talk of the actual game at all. All this Armagh self pity is , f**king pathetic. Expected better of a proud county. The amount of new hangers on from Armagh on the forum since Armagh started to do well again , to the fore. Bring bck Fearon, all is forgiven.
I think at this stage, until the suspensions are resolved it's very difficult to know what type of game we will have. I think it will require a vastly different strategy from Armagh depending on who is available.
Just like the team, the supporters are imploding.
Perhaps its pressure of being in Division 1.
Perhaps its the pressure of winning so few games in Ulster in the last 10 years.
But I have never seen such crying and yapping because players are suspended for a game.
Its quite delicious to watch
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
To be fair, he'd start on every inter county team in the country including Kerry, Dublin and Tyrone this season, never mind the next two or three seasons as he develops.
Quote from: Taylor on April 08, 2022, 08:29:39 AM
Just like the team, the supporters are imploding.
Perhaps its pressure of being in Division 1.
Perhaps its the pressure of winning so few games in Ulster in the last 10 years.
But I have never seen such crying and yapping because players are suspended for a game.
Its quite delicious to watch
Lol, the whole carry on has certainly got people talking 😀. As for the football, it's a long time since I've seen a team promoted from years in the lower divisions to instantly look comfortable in Division 1 especially when you think of teams like Cavan/Roscommon who go up and down, or Meath who struggled.
Armagh have to bring this into the championship arena and show the potential many think they have, but for the wider GAA and football landscape it's good to see teams coming through. This season it'll have to be through the qualifers, but I wouldn't want to draw them in those with a full team back. I'd say they'd love a second championship game with Donegal later in the season.
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
On the first question, I don't know the answer and I thought the 4 Tyrone suspensions were ridiculous on that occasion also. However I'm sure you can see the difference between a regulation League match and a knock out championship match. Armagh are not going to win an AI title this year but they could win an Ulster title. The suspensions massively impacts their chances of doing so.
I'd be fairly sure that Rian O'Neill has decent scoring stats but in any case he is much more than just an out and out scorer. He could quite easily play at midfield and still be Armaghs best player and I'm not sure you could say that about too many top class scoring forwards around the country. He is as important to Armagh as Michael Murphy was to Donegal in his prime.
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
Watch the lad. Only player in Ireland remotely close to Clifford. Most in Armagh reckon he'll go down as the best player we've ever had.
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 08, 2022, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
Watch the lad. Only player in Ireland remotely close to Clifford. Most in Armagh reckon he'll go down as the best player we've ever had.
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 08, 2022, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
Watch the lad. Only player in Ireland remotely close to Clifford. Most in Armagh reckon he'll go down as the best player we've ever had.
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
Is he the older O'Neill?
Is the other lad good?
Quote from: marty34 on April 08, 2022, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 08, 2022, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
Watch the lad. Only player in Ireland remotely close to Clifford. Most in Armagh reckon he'll go down as the best player we've ever had.
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
WOW
Is he the older O'Neill?
Is the other lad good?
Other lad is pretty handy yeah. And Rian is younger
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 08, 2022, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
Watch the lad. Only player in Ireland remotely close to Clifford. Most in Armagh reckon he'll go down as the best player we've ever had.
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
Fair enough we all have our own opinions. For me the lad can do it all, play inside and take scores off both feet, deadly from 45's and free kicks. As someone else has said he can come and play in midfield and still be our best player.
Could go on and on but don't want to sound like a one man fan club!
Quote from: clubman21 on April 08, 2022, 10:23:28 AM
Quote from: marty34 on April 08, 2022, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 08, 2022, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
Watch the lad. Only player in Ireland remotely close to Clifford. Most in Armagh reckon he'll go down as the best player we've ever had.
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
WOW
Is he the older O'Neill?
Is the other lad good?
Other lad is pretty handy yeah. And Rian is younger
Is the older lad making the team also?
Quote from: clubman21 on April 08, 2022, 10:23:28 AM
Quote from: marty34 on April 08, 2022, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 08, 2022, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
Watch the lad. Only player in Ireland remotely close to Clifford. Most in Armagh reckon he'll go down as the best player we've ever had.
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
WOW
Is he the older O'Neill?
Is the other lad good?
Other lad is pretty handy yeah. And Rian is younger
Oisin's a very good lad as well but had awful injury trouble this past while. Meant to be 2 lads younger than Rian again as good or better!
Quote from: marty34 on April 08, 2022, 10:35:43 AM
Quote from: clubman21 on April 08, 2022, 10:23:28 AM
Quote from: marty34 on April 08, 2022, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 08, 2022, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
Watch the lad. Only player in Ireland remotely close to Clifford. Most in Armagh reckon he'll go down as the best player we've ever had.
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
WOW
Is he the older O'Neill?
Is the other lad good?
Other lad is pretty handy yeah. And Rian is younger
Is the older lad making the team also?
Would be nailed on only for injuries.
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 08, 2022, 10:42:53 AM
Quote from: clubman21 on April 08, 2022, 10:23:28 AM
Quote from: marty34 on April 08, 2022, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 08, 2022, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
Watch the lad. Only player in Ireland remotely close to Clifford. Most in Armagh reckon he'll go down as the best player we've ever had.
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
WOW
Is he the older O'Neill?
Is the other lad good?
Other lad is pretty handy yeah. And Rian is younger
Oisin's a very good lad as well but had awful injury trouble this past while. Meant to be 2 lads younger than Rian again as good or better!
Thought only one of the younger brothers was still playing?
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
On a thread that is verging on the ridiculous at times (exception David McKeown) this is by far the most ridiculous by some distance. O'Neill's playing credentials are without question.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 08, 2022, 10:48:46 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 08, 2022, 10:42:53 AM
Quote from: clubman21 on April 08, 2022, 10:23:28 AM
Quote from: marty34 on April 08, 2022, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 08, 2022, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
Watch the lad. Only player in Ireland remotely close to Clifford. Most in Armagh reckon he'll go down as the best player we've ever had.
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
WOW
Is he the older O'Neill?
Is the other lad good?
Other lad is pretty handy yeah. And Rian is younger
Oisin's a very good lad as well but had awful injury trouble this past while. Meant to be 2 lads younger than Rian again as good or better!
Thought only one of the younger brothers was still playing?
You could be right. Was definitely one on an Armagh u17 or u20 team last year. Cross men would know more!
Quote from: mackers on April 08, 2022, 10:57:45 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
On a thread that is verging on the ridiculous at times (exception David McKeown) this is by far the most ridiculous by some distance. O'Neill's playing credentials are without question.
Agreed Mackers.
Quote from: mackers on April 08, 2022, 10:57:45 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
On a thread that is verging on the ridiculous at times (exception David McKeown) this is by far the most ridiculous by some distance. O'Neill's playing credentials are without question.
Provide the stats then.
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 02:38:19 PM
Quote from: mackers on April 08, 2022, 10:57:45 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
On a thread that is verging on the ridiculous at times (exception David McKeown) this is by far the most ridiculous by some distance. O'Neill's playing credentials are without question.
Provide the stats then.
Stats? Really. He's a fantastic footballer, has everything in his locker. A joy to watch
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 02:38:19 PM
Quote from: mackers on April 08, 2022, 10:57:45 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
On a thread that is verging on the ridiculous at times (exception David McKeown) this is by far the most ridiculous by some distance. O'Neill's playing credentials are without question.
Provide the stats then.
Lies, damn lies and statistics.
Look if you watch the lad and don't think he's a serious footballer then nothing I or anyone else is going to post on here will convince you otherwise. Don't have the figures but I think he's our top scorer in the league but like I said before he has so much more to his game. Passing is top class and probably sets up more scores than anyone else for us.
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 08, 2022, 10:42:53 AM
Quote from: clubman21 on April 08, 2022, 10:23:28 AM
Quote from: marty34 on April 08, 2022, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 10:16:22 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 08, 2022, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 08, 2022, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 07, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
I'd be interested to know when the last time a team had 4 players suspended for a championship match. I can't think of any in recent memory, it is unprecedented and totally disproportionate to the incident involved.
Armagh have been very very quiet on the whole incident - there has been nobody from the team management, the county board or former players putting forward any degree of protestations. I'm not sure if it is because of the GPA ban but you would like to think that they are doing everything to defend these players in the background because they haven't had much support in the media since the incident.
When was the last time a team had 4 suspended for a league game prior to Tyrone?
On O'Neill, a lot of hype about him but what are his actual scoring contributions from play?
Watch the lad. Only player in Ireland remotely close to Clifford. Most in Armagh reckon he'll go down as the best player we've ever had.
I have watched him and he is very good, just think that on what he has done so far he is over-rated and statements like yours there further add to that belief. I was just interested to see his scoring stats from play as I don't think he contributes enough to the score board. I would take the current version of Michael Murphy over him too and wouldn't have him as second best player in the country.
WOW
Is he the older O'Neill?
Is the other lad good?
Other lad is pretty handy yeah. And Rian is younger
Oisin's a very good lad as well but had awful injury trouble this past while. Meant to be 2 lads younger than Rian again as good or better!
:D Could well be correct but that's a well worn line in the GAA about the younger brother
Here's an idea. Why not get Armagh to represent Ireland in the International Rules series? McGeeney and McKeever's brand of thuggery can be let loose on the Aussies and see how they get on.
Quote from: KickPass on April 09, 2022, 05:38:55 PM
Here's an idea. Why not get Armagh to represent Ireland in the International Rules series? McGeeney and McKeever's brand of thuggery can be let loose on the Aussies and see how they get on.
And to improve Ireland's medal record in the World Championships or Olympic games, can we let Tyrone represent Ireland in the diving please? 😉
Quote from: KickPass on April 09, 2022, 05:38:55 PM
Here's an idea. Why not get Armagh to represent Ireland in the International Rules series? McGeeney and McKeever's brand of thuggery can be let loose on the Aussies and see how they get on.
Why do you say Windmill is your club? Clearly an imposter!
Quote from: general_lee on April 09, 2022, 06:27:56 PM
Quote from: KickPass on April 09, 2022, 05:38:55 PM
Here's an idea. Why not get Armagh to represent Ireland in the International Rules series? McGeeney and McKeever's brand of thuggery can be let loose on the Aussies and see how they get on.
Why do you say Windmill is your club? Clearly an imposter!
Why choose promoter of slavery as your username??
Quote from: KickPass on April 09, 2022, 05:38:55 PM
Here's an idea. Why not get Armagh to represent Ireland in the International Rules series? McGeeney and McKeever's brand of thuggery can be let loose on the Aussies and see how they get on.
Seem to remember McGeeney being one of the only men that didn't shite their togs against the Aussies...
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 10, 2022, 10:06:49 AM
Quote from: KickPass on April 09, 2022, 05:38:55 PM
Here's an idea. Why not get Armagh to represent Ireland in the International Rules series? McGeeney and McKeever's brand of thuggery can be let loose on the Aussies and see how they get on.
Seem to remember McGeeney being one of the only men that didn't shite their togs against the Aussies...
Exactly, McGeeney and Mc Keever were proper tough competitors. Some of the Tyrone players were wannabe hard men until they met the Ozzies.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 10, 2022, 10:24:56 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 10, 2022, 10:06:49 AM
Quote from: KickPass on April 09, 2022, 05:38:55 PM
Here's an idea. Why not get Armagh to represent Ireland in the International Rules series? McGeeney and McKeever's brand of thuggery can be let loose on the Aussies and see how they get on.
Seem to remember McGeeney being one of the only men that didn't shite their togs against the Aussies...
Exactly, McGeeney and Mc Keever were proper tough competitors. Some of the Tyrone players were wannabe hard men until they met the Ozzies.
Mckeever tough? lol
Quote from: KickPass on April 10, 2022, 08:29:21 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 10, 2022, 10:24:56 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 10, 2022, 10:06:49 AM
Quote from: KickPass on April 09, 2022, 05:38:55 PM
Here's an idea. Why not get Armagh to represent Ireland in the International Rules series? McGeeney and McKeever's brand of thuggery can be let loose on the Aussies and see how they get on.
Seem to remember McGeeney being one of the only men that didn't shite their togs against the Aussies...
Exactly, McGeeney and Mc Keever were proper tough competitors. Some of the Tyrone players were wannabe hard men until they met the Ozzies.
Mckeever tough? lol
You initially called him a thug and now you seem to be suggesting he's not tough, it sounds like you're a bit confused. McKeever was a teak tough centre back in his prime you don't get to vice captain your country against the ozzies unless you have plenty of steel about you.
O neill appeal tonight ?
Rubbish talk aside, what's the general consensus for this game.
Having watched both teams during the league, Armagh looked more impressive and consistent in how they play, Donegal have been slightly underwhelming without Murphy in the games I have seen (which is not all of them mind).
Do the Armagh ones feel this game is unwinnable without O'Neil playing?
It was mentioned Armagh have a completive team with players to come off the bench, so suspensions aside surely those players can plug the gaps in some shape or form?
Its a 50/50 for me, Donegal have it in them to get them over the line when they want to and up their may give them more of an advantage, but again Armagh have looked more assured. For me, it would be Armagh by 2points at the very most, if they play the football they have been playing of late.
For me Armagh aren't winning without O Neill .
Assuming no further injuries if Armagh have Conor Turbitt and Oisin O'Neill available to play I'd give Armagh a chance with Donegal favourites. Their availability would go some way to make up for the suspensions.
I don't think Donegal have anybody who can mark Rian O'Neill, they are really poor in defence one on one and Patton is not great under high balls so the long early ball is an obvious tactic to use against them. If we simply try and match them by playing a running game there will only be one winner so we need to mix it up. If Rian O'Neill isn't available then Murnin is another option to play inside and then have runners feeding off him. At the other end of the pitch I'd be worried about McBrearty, he is a hot and cold player but always seems to keep his best form for playing Armagh. I'm not sure who to put on him, Morgan has often struggled to contain him in the past so I would probably try McCabe on him if Forker is tasked with shadowing Murphy.
Its almost impossible to make a prediction at this stage until the available line ups are known closer to the time.
O'Neill is still a level below the likes of Jack McCarron or McCurry. He's young though and will probably improve more with time.
Quote from: Westside on April 11, 2022, 02:49:26 PM
O'Neill is still a level below the likes of Jack McCarron or McCurry. He's young though and will probably improve more with time.
I don't really get the comparision with McCarron and McCurry, they are both nimble skilful inside forwards. Rian O'Neill is much more than that, he can play anywhere from midfield upwards and a comparision with someone like Michael Murphy would be more apt I think.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 11, 2022, 03:19:54 PM
Quote from: Westside on April 11, 2022, 02:49:26 PM
O'Neill is still a level below the likes of Jack McCarron or McCurry. He's young though and will probably improve more with time.
I don't really get the comparision with McCarron and McCurry, they are both nimble skilful inside forwards. Rian O'Neill is much more than that, he can play anywhere from midfield upwards and a comparision with someone like Michael Murphy would be more apt I think.
Thats a fair point, he is certainly more versatile than McCarron and McCurry, and on more than one occasion has took the initiative and went into the middle of the pitch to field ball. Is Murphy fit to play or what is his situation?
Lot of speculation about that Armagh have a few key injuries as well. I think both teams at full strength I'd give Armagh a chance. If the suspensions and injuries result in a loss of players then I think home advantage should see Donegal home comfortably
We'll see.
Donegal were still missing a few starters late in the league.
Michael Langan only made his comeback late in the Armagh league game. Caolan McGonigle, Oisin Gallen and Ciaran Thompson were still out. Hopefully they're fit and they, along with lads like Jamie Brennan and Niall O'Donnell who also missed a lot of the league, get back to match-sharpness.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 11, 2022, 03:19:54 PM
Quote from: Westside on April 11, 2022, 02:49:26 PM
O'Neill is still a level below the likes of Jack McCarron or McCurry. He's young though and will probably improve more with time.
I don't really get the comparision with McCarron and McCurry, they are both nimble skilful inside forwards. Rian O'Neill is much more than that, he can play anywhere from midfield upwards and a comparision with someone like Michael Murphy would be more apt I think.
Maybe Enda Smith would be a better comparison, although he has much to prove before he could be considered in Smith's league.
Quote from: Westside on April 11, 2022, 05:16:11 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 11, 2022, 03:19:54 PM
Quote from: Westside on April 11, 2022, 02:49:26 PM
O'Neill is still a level below the likes of Jack McCarron or McCurry. He's young though and will probably improve more with time.
I don't really get the comparision with McCarron and McCurry, they are both nimble skilful inside forwards. Rian O'Neill is much more than that, he can play anywhere from midfield upwards and a comparision with someone like Michael Murphy would be more apt I think.
Maybe Enda Smith would be a better comparison, although he has much to prove before he could be considered in Smith's league.
Yes, Smith who is an excellent player is a much better comparison. Rian O'Neill has the ability and still has his best years ahead of him.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 11, 2022, 05:41:37 PM
Quote from: Westside on April 11, 2022, 05:16:11 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 11, 2022, 03:19:54 PM
Quote from: Westside on April 11, 2022, 02:49:26 PM
O'Neill is still a level below the likes of Jack McCarron or McCurry. He's young though and will probably improve more with time.
I don't really get the comparision with McCarron and McCurry, they are both nimble skilful inside forwards. Rian O'Neill is much more than that, he can play anywhere from midfield upwards and a comparision with someone like Michael Murphy would be more apt I think.
Maybe Enda Smith would be a better comparison, although he has much to prove before he could be considered in Smith's league.
Yes, Smith who is an excellent player is a much better comparison. Rian O'Neill has the ability and is still has best years ahead of him.
There will be 4 of them in a few years
O'Neill cleared.
Seems like Rian O'Neill won his appeal and will play now. Armaghs legal team have done a much better job than Tyrone managed earlier in the year and Geezer has played a blinder in the background.
Let's hope the other lads can get justice as well now.
That's most of the excuses gone. Pardon the pun but Armagh need to push on now.
Game on. Hopefully soupy and Aidan get off as well. Still a few too many injuries to be confident but O'Neill a huge boost.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 11, 2022, 09:23:05 PM
Geezer has played a blinder in the background.
What does this mean?
Bit of a farce when the only player who is clearly caught on camera striking gets off. Puts the pressure back on armagh now as they don't have an excuse if they fail to beat Donegal.
Would expect the other ones to get off as there wasn't as much evidence for them as there was for Rian.
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 11, 2022, 10:13:57 PM
Bit of a farce when the only player who is clearly caught on camera striking gets off. Puts the pressure back on armagh now as they don't have an excuse if they fail to beat Donegal.
Would expect the other ones to get off as there wasn't as much evidence for them as there was for Rian.
Didn't follow procedure when suspending O'Neill. His appeal was over in seconds.
Quote from: LCohen on April 11, 2022, 10:11:55 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 11, 2022, 09:23:05 PM
Geezer has played a blinder in the background.
What does this mean?
He kept his cards close to his chest by not commenting publicly on the incident in the media which I had wondered whether was the right approach at the time. But he knew what he was doing and got the O'Neill suspension overturned and that at least gives Armagh a chance.
Hopefully the other 3 lads can get justice now as well.
Quote from: Solo_run on April 11, 2022, 10:27:01 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 11, 2022, 10:13:57 PM
Bit of a farce when the only player who is clearly caught on camera striking gets off. Puts the pressure back on armagh now as they don't have an excuse if they fail to beat Donegal.
Would expect the other ones to get off as there wasn't as much evidence for them as there was for Rian.
Didn't follow procedure when suspending O'Neill. His appeal was over in seconds.
What was the procedure. I thought the ccc gave him a suspension when they looked at the video evidence but may be wrong on that.
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 11, 2022, 10:37:33 PM
Quote from: Solo_run on April 11, 2022, 10:27:01 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 11, 2022, 10:13:57 PM
Bit of a farce when the only player who is clearly caught on camera striking gets off. Puts the pressure back on armagh now as they don't have an excuse if they fail to beat Donegal.
Would expect the other ones to get off as there wasn't as much evidence for them as there was for Rian.
Didn't follow procedure when suspending O'Neill. His appeal was over in seconds.
What was the procedure. I thought the ccc gave him a suspension when they looked at the video evidence but may be wrong on that.
We might not be told, but as many commented Armagh were always going to challenge this whole procedure, and when you're honest and look at the punishments handed out and the impact it would of had on their competiveness they're totally right to do so.
They've obviously found something and won one appeal. It'll be interesting to see with the other three, and if they keep challenging the process if unsuccessful with those. O'Neill being cleared is a huge success for them and goes someway to at least making the game somewhat more competitive than it was going to be.
Days of taking u medicine after dishing it out look gone.
Will we get a break from the crying now?
At least until the game itself when the referee will be against them? ;)
This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 01:49:35 AM
This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.
It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said
But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy alive and well.
Other three suspensions stand I believe
Process for O Neill was always going to be challenged.
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 11, 2022, 10:13:57 PM
Bit of a farce when the only player who is clearly caught on camera striking gets off. Puts the pressure back on armagh now as they don't have an excuse if they fail to beat Donegal.
Would expect the other ones to get off as there wasn't as much evidence for them as there was for Rian.
The other 3 are huge losses plus there are injuries to the next in line to replace them.
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 12, 2022, 07:46:20 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 11, 2022, 10:13:57 PM
Bit of a farce when the only player who is clearly caught on camera striking gets off. Puts the pressure back on armagh now as they don't have an excuse if they fail to beat Donegal.
Would expect the other ones to get off as there wasn't as much evidence for them as there was for Rian.
The other 3 are huge losses plus there are injuries to the next in line to replace them.
Mackin is out anyways,
Nugent is a big loss hopefully turbitt and Mc quillan can offset Campbell loss
Grimley also needs to find some form
Quote from: naka on April 12, 2022, 07:43:36 AM
Other three suspensions stand I believe
Process for O Neill was always going to be challenged.
Yet still nobody knows what the other 3 lads did to warrant suspensions (or the Donegal lads for that matter). There is no video evidence showing their discretions, at least with O'Neill you could see some form of semblance of a striking action no matter how minimal it was.
So if the same thing happens again, a few random lads from each side will get pulled out by the referee based on his proximity to them at the time. Instead of basing it on the actual available video evidence which doesn't show them doing anything more than any other player.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 12, 2022, 09:44:16 AM
Quote from: naka on April 12, 2022, 07:43:36 AM
Other three suspensions stand I believe
Process for O Neill was always going to be challenged.
Yet still nobody knows what the other 3 lads did to warrant suspensions (or the Donegal lads for that matter). There is no video evidence showing their discretions, at least with O'Neill you could see some form of semblance of a striking action no matter how minimal it was.
So if the same thing happens again, a few random lads from each side will get pulled out by the referee based on his proximity to them at the time. Instead of basing it on the actual available video evidence which doesn't show them doing anything more than any other player.
Presume for 'contributing to a melee' which is ill-defined to say the least.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 12, 2022, 09:44:16 AM
Quote from: naka on April 12, 2022, 07:43:36 AM
Other three suspensions stand I believe
Process for O Neill was always going to be challenged.
Yet still nobody knows what the other 3 lads did to warrant suspensions (or the Donegal lads for that matter). There is no video evidence showing their discretions, at least with O'Neill you could see some form of semblance of a striking action no matter how minimal it was.
So if the same thing happens again, a few random lads from each side will get pulled out by the referee based on his proximity to them at the time. Instead of basing it on the actual available video evidence which doesn't show them doing anything more than any other player.
What was the technicality O'Neill got off on I wonder? As I've said before, whole process needs to be far far more transparent
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 12, 2022, 09:47:44 AM
Did we ever hear the reasons the Tyrone players were banned? That was a right while ago.
I imagine counties were given this info.
Contributing to a melee.
I can't see a referee having the balls to do the same thing in a championship match if I'm honest so this is going to lead to accusations of bias.
The GAA need to be telling refs, this is the way we are moving forward and if they do that and we consistently see the same actions then so be it. But I just can't see it happening again the likes of Dublin and Kerry.
What happened in the Tyrone Armagh game happens a few times a year.
Also why is it not a simple 1 game ban for a sub entering the field during a melee regardless of whether they were breaking it up or doing nothing. You always find things escalate to another level when someone off field gets involved. I'd be happy for the GAA to hammer home on that.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on April 12, 2022, 10:09:28 AM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 12, 2022, 09:47:44 AM
Did we ever hear the reasons the Tyrone players were banned? That was a right while ago.
I imagine counties were given this info.
Contributing to a melee.
I can't see a referee having the balls to do the same thing in a championship match if I'm honest so this is going to lead to accusations of bias.
The GAA need to be telling refs, this is the way we are moving forward and if they do that and we consistently see the same actions then so be it. But I just can't see it happening again the likes of Dublin and Kerry.
What happened in the Tyrone Armagh game happens a few times a year.
Also why is it not a simple 1 game ban for a sub entering the field during a melee regardless of whether they were breaking it up or doing nothing. You always find things escalate to another level when someone off field gets involved. I'd be happy for the GAA to hammer home on that.
Ok but whats a melee in your example?
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 12, 2022, 10:06:05 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 12, 2022, 09:44:16 AM
Quote from: naka on April 12, 2022, 07:43:36 AM
Other three suspensions stand I believe
Process for O Neill was always going to be challenged.
Yet still nobody knows what the other 3 lads did to warrant suspensions (or the Donegal lads for that matter). There is no video evidence showing their discretions, at least with O'Neill you could see some form of semblance of a striking action no matter how minimal it was.
So if the same thing happens again, a few random lads from each side will get pulled out by the referee based on his proximity to them at the time. Instead of basing it on the actual available video evidence which doesn't show them doing anything more than any other player.
What was the technicality O'Neill got off on I wonder? As I've said before, whole process needs to be far far more transparent
I'm not too sure but we'll take it anyway. Of all the players charged with bans Rian O'Neill was probably the only one that you could say might have warranted a suspension, I actually didn't think he'd get off once he was initially charged. You'd have to feel sympathy for the other players who were made scapegoats for the whole thing just because David Gough dished out 5 cards in a previous match.
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 01:49:35 AM
This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.
It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said
But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy alive and well.
O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.
I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.
This thread is the greatest pile of dung. Just saying.......
Quote from: David McKeown on April 12, 2022, 10:16:36 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on April 12, 2022, 10:09:28 AM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 12, 2022, 09:47:44 AM
Did we ever hear the reasons the Tyrone players were banned? That was a right while ago.
I imagine counties were given this info.
Contributing to a melee.
I can't see a referee having the balls to do the same thing in a championship match if I'm honest so this is going to lead to accusations of bias.
The GAA need to be telling refs, this is the way we are moving forward and if they do that and we consistently see the same actions then so be it. But I just can't see it happening again the likes of Dublin and Kerry.
What happened in the Tyrone Armagh game happens a few times a year.
Also why is it not a simple 1 game ban for a sub entering the field during a melee regardless of whether they were breaking it up or doing nothing. You always find things escalate to another level when someone off field gets involved. I'd be happy for the GAA to hammer home on that.
Ok but whats a melee in your example?
No idea. Don't think the GAA know either. Looks like they've gone with anyone who is grappling or headlocks. There was a lot else let go.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 12, 2022, 10:16:36 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on April 12, 2022, 10:09:28 AM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 12, 2022, 09:47:44 AM
Did we ever hear the reasons the Tyrone players were banned? That was a right while ago.
I imagine counties were given this info.
Contributing to a melee.
I can't see a referee having the balls to do the same thing in a championship match if I'm honest so this is going to lead to accusations of bias.
The GAA need to be telling refs, this is the way we are moving forward and if they do that and we consistently see the same actions then so be it. But I just can't see it happening again the likes of Dublin and Kerry.
What happened in the Tyrone Armagh game happens a few times a year.
Also why is it not a simple 1 game ban for a sub entering the field during a melee regardless of whether they were breaking it up or doing nothing. You always find things escalate to another level when someone off field gets involved. I'd be happy for the GAA to hammer home on that.
Ok but whats a melee in your example?
3 or more players wrestling/fighting?
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 11:20:28 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 01:49:35 AM
This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.
It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said
But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy alive and well.
O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.
I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.
Its simple. Team penalties.
Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 12:25:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 11:20:28 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 01:49:35 AM
This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.
It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said
But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy alive and well.
O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.
I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.
Its simple. Team penalties.
Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.
Whole fuss being made over nothing tbh, it's not that big of a deal better to simply move on.
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 12, 2022, 12:43:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 12:25:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 11:20:28 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 01:49:35 AM
This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.
It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said
But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy alive and well.
O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.
I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.
Its simple. Team penalties.
Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.
Whole fuss being made over nothing tbh, it's not that big of a deal better to simply move on.
No big deal until someone gets their jaw broken or something and no one can identify who did it because both teams threw everyone into the row.
Very few games have multiple camera angles which allow all of the guilty to be weeded out.
And that's at senior county level. What about all the other levels of the game?
The GAA community is far too tolerant and indulgent of violence in my opinion.
Quote from: Armamike on April 12, 2022, 12:02:42 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 12, 2022, 10:16:36 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on April 12, 2022, 10:09:28 AM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 12, 2022, 09:47:44 AM
Did we ever hear the reasons the Tyrone players were banned? That was a right while ago.
I imagine counties were given this info.
Contributing to a melee.
I can't see a referee having the balls to do the same thing in a championship match if I'm honest so this is going to lead to accusations of bias.
The GAA need to be telling refs, this is the way we are moving forward and if they do that and we consistently see the same actions then so be it. But I just can't see it happening again the likes of Dublin and Kerry.
What happened in the Tyrone Armagh game happens a few times a year.
Also why is it not a simple 1 game ban for a sub entering the field during a melee regardless of whether they were breaking it up or doing nothing. You always find things escalate to another level when someone off field gets involved. I'd be happy for the GAA to hammer home on that.
Ok but whats a melee in your example?
3 or more players wrestling/fighting?
But we have seen it to be two people before in the hurling
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 12, 2022, 12:43:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 12:25:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 11:20:28 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 01:49:35 AM
This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.
It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said
But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy alive and well.
O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.
I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.
Its simple. Team penalties.
Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.
Whole fuss being made over nothing tbh, it's not that big of a deal better to simply move on.
No big deal until someone gets their jaw broken or something and no one can identify who did it because both teams threw everyone into the row.
Very few games have multiple camera angles which allow all of the guilty to be weeded out.
And that's at senior county level. What about all the other levels of the game?
The GAA community is far too tolerant and indulgent of violence in my opinion.
In the modern age there is no excuse for every county ground not having a number of fixed cameras to capture all the off the ball stuff if and I stress if the GAA are serious about trying to reduce or eliminate it.
I start with a £10k fine for subs entering the field of play during a, skirmish, double it for bck room teams. O'neill shouldnt got off simple, technicality as far as I am aware. But the entire skirmish should been reviewed, players/ staff with no numbers identified and either banned or fined. How the Donegal sub keeper got of scot free a total mystery
Quote from: David McKeown on April 12, 2022, 01:05:45 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 12, 2022, 12:43:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 12:25:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 11:20:28 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 01:49:35 AM
This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.
It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said
But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy alive and well.
O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.
I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.
Its simple. Team penalties.
Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.
Whole fuss being made over nothing tbh, it's not that big of a deal better to simply move on.
No big deal until someone gets their jaw broken or something and no one can identify who did it because both teams threw everyone into the row.
Very few games have multiple camera angles which allow all of the guilty to be weeded out.
And that's at senior county level. What about all the other levels of the game?
The GAA community is far too tolerant and indulgent of violence in my opinion.
In the modern age there is no excuse for every county ground not having a number of fixed cameras to capture all the off the ball stuff if and I stress if the GAA are serious about trying to reduce or eliminate it.
Maybe so, but what about clubs games, underage games?
This stuff happens in those games also. Sometimes with spectators joining in.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 12, 2022, 01:19:37 PM
I start with a £10k fine for subs entering the field of play during a, skirmish, double it for bck room teams. O'neill shouldnt got off simple, technicality as far as I am aware. But the entire skirmish should been reviewed, players/ staff with no numbers identified and either banned or fined. How the Donegal sub keeper got of scot free a total mystery
Bottom line it needs hit on the head. The introduction of neck chokes and head rolls needs sorted and punished severely ... I already see it seeping out of the county game with kids trying to mimic it ... had to intervene as my son tried the same manoeuvre during an altercation with his sister last night :o
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 12, 2022, 01:19:37 PM
I start with a £10k fine for subs entering the field of play during a, skirmish, double it for bck room teams. O'neill shouldnt got off simple, technicality as far as I am aware. But the entire skirmish should been reviewed, players/ staff with no numbers identified and either banned or fined. How the Donegal sub keeper got of scot free a total mystery
From what I saw it wasnt a clear strike, his body position and movement doesnt suggest he was trying to strike anyone either so it really isnt simple.
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 01:46:14 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 12, 2022, 01:05:45 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 12, 2022, 12:43:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 12:25:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 11:20:28 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 01:49:35 AM
This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.
It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said
But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy alive and well.
O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.
I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.
Its simple. Team penalties.
Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.
Whole fuss being made over nothing tbh, it's not that big of a deal better to simply move on.
No big deal until someone gets their jaw broken or something and no one can identify who did it because both teams threw everyone into the row.
Very few games have multiple camera angles which allow all of the guilty to be weeded out.
And that's at senior county level. What about all the other levels of the game?
The GAA community is far too tolerant and indulgent of violence in my opinion.
In the modern age there is no excuse for every county ground not having a number of fixed cameras to capture all the off the ball stuff if and I stress if the GAA are serious about trying to reduce or eliminate it.
Maybe so, but what about clubs games, underage games?
This stuff happens in those games also. Sometimes with spectators joining in.
We cant have the same resources in place at all games thats not workable and we dont do it presently with games having anywhere between 1 and 8 or 9 officials depending on the level of the game. A lack of resources at lower levels is not an excuse to not use available resources at higher levels.
If the plan is to eradicate what some here are complaining about then a fair and consistent approach should be taken at all levels. Cherry picking individual incidents with a haphazard and inconsistent approach will only lead to injustice. There is no excuse for the GAA not to have the following in place.
A well written and well defined rule book
Cameras at intercounty grounds controlled by the GAA and not the host broadcaster or participating counties.
A clear and transparent disciplinary structure which can be easily, correctly and fairly implemented.
Well trained officials who know how the system is to operate.
The farces we have seen in recent years really do beggar belief for me.
Once you have those things in place you can teak punishment and sanctions until you arrived at the desired result
One sure thing is that the gaa are definitely amature when it comes to enforcing rules or applying consistency.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 12, 2022, 02:24:17 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 01:46:14 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 12, 2022, 01:05:45 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 12, 2022, 12:43:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 12:25:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 11:20:28 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 01:49:35 AM
This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.
It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said
But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy alive and well.
O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.
I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.
Its simple. Team penalties.
Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.
Whole fuss being made over nothing tbh, it's not that big of a deal better to simply move on.
No big deal until someone gets their jaw broken or something and no one can identify who did it because both teams threw everyone into the row.
Very few games have multiple camera angles which allow all of the guilty to be weeded out.
And that's at senior county level. What about all the other levels of the game?
The GAA community is far too tolerant and indulgent of violence in my opinion.
In the modern age there is no excuse for every county ground not having a number of fixed cameras to capture all the off the ball stuff if and I stress if the GAA are serious about trying to reduce or eliminate it.
Maybe so, but what about clubs games, underage games?
This stuff happens in those games also. Sometimes with spectators joining in.
We cant have the same resources in place at all games thats not workable and we dont do it presently with games having anywhere between 1 and 8 or 9 officials depending on the level of the game. A lack of resources at lower levels is not an excuse to not use available resources at higher levels.
If the plan is to eradicate what some here are complaining about then a fair and consistent approach should be taken at all levels. Cherry picking individual incidents with a haphazard and inconsistent approach will only lead to injustice. There is no excuse for the GAA not to have the following in place.
A well written and well defined rule book
Cameras at intercounty grounds controlled by the GAA and not the host broadcaster or participating counties.
A clear and transparent disciplinary structure which can be easily, correctly and fairly implemented.
Well trained officials who know how the system is to operate.
The farces we have seen in recent years really do beggar belief for me.
Once you have those things in place you can teak punishment and sanctions until you arrived at the desired result
Very sensible, and I agree with all that.
My point is more that punishments that don't rely completely on the off-chance that a camera happens to catch the offender(s) CAN be implemented at all levels of the game.
All-in melees - punish the team. f**k splitting hairs as to whether sub-A ran onto the field or the rest of the on-field team ran in to try to break it up or have a go themselves. If the referee sees anyone else getting involved apart from the two lads who initially squared up, then penalize the team, end of story.
It will take a while, and there'll be plenty of howling the first few times, but the message will get through.
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 02:32:01 PM
One sure thing is that the gaa are definitely amature when it comes to enforcing rules or applying consistency.
Indeed, this is one area where amateurism does not do the GAA any favours.
O'Neill got off on a technicality (not an official GAA video) and Murphy and Grugan weren't even cited as it wasn't on camera. Armagh have received the heavier punishment by far here.
To try and pick out culprits from a melee based on video footage is never going to deliver genuine justice. A melee should mean suspensions (where the culprits are clear) and where they're not then a team punishment should be enforced. Eg: 0-3 down at start of next game, manager banished from touchline, no substitutes allowed in next game, loose next home game and play at away venue instead. Maybe a combination of these.
The GAA are not good in this area and need to catch a grip on discipline especially these half baked rows of headlocks and holding each others jerseys etc. Genuine punishment is the only way to end it.
Quote from: ck on April 12, 2022, 03:46:30 PM
O'Neill got off on a technicality (not an official GAA video) and Murphy and Grugan weren't even cited as it wasn't on camera. Armagh have received the heavier punishment by far here.
To try and pick out culprits from a melee based on video footage is never going to deliver genuine justice. A melee should mean suspensions (where the culprits are clear) and where they're not then a team punishment should be enforced. Eg: 0-3 down at start of next game, manager banished from touchline, no substitutes allowed in next game, loose next home game and play at away venue instead. Maybe a combination of these.
The GAA are not good in this area and need to catch a grip on discipline especially these half baked rows of headlocks and holding each others jerseys etc. Genuine punishment is the only way to end it.
Agree, I've no doubt the media coverage post match, and the narrative pinned on Armagh led to such a rush to get more cited or suspended they didn't manage to follow procedure.
It sounds like Armagh's representatives easily won the O'Neill appeal, which says a lot about the CCCC in my opinion.
Hopefully everyone moves onto football now, and every team entering the championship is treated with the same consistency. If the media do decide to highlight a certain team, more than others the hope is CCCC will take a step back, assess everything that needs assessing and then use their procedures if required, instead of rushing to what the media thinks happened which time will show was a rushed, reactive intervention to begin with.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 11, 2022, 10:33:03 PM
Quote from: LCohen on April 11, 2022, 10:11:55 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 11, 2022, 09:23:05 PM
Geezer has played a blinder in the background.
What does this mean?
He kept his cards close to his chest by not commenting publicly on the incident in the media which I had wondered whether was the right approach at the time. But he knew what he was doing and got the O'Neill suspension overturned and that at least gives Armagh a chance.
Hopefully the other 3 lads can get justice now as well.
So that qualifies as a blinder then? Right hoh
Quote from: yellowcard on April 12, 2022, 09:44:16 AM
Quote from: naka on April 12, 2022, 07:43:36 AM
Other three suspensions stand I believe
Process for O Neill was always going to be challenged.
Yet still nobody knows what the other 3 lads did to warrant suspensions (or the Donegal lads for that matter). There is no video evidence showing their discretions, at least with O'Neill you could see some form of semblance of a striking action no matter how minimal it was.
So if the same thing happens again, a few random lads from each side will get pulled out by the referee based on his proximity to them at the time. Instead of basing it on the actual available video evidence which doesn't show them doing anything more than any other player.
This would be normal. The normal starting point for punishment is what the officials saw, not what the camera saw.
You might not know what the referee saw but the players know.
You assume that lads have been selected at random. Is it not just possible that the ref hit a clear line of sight on some offences but not all offences and we just have to go on living in an imperfect world?
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 12:25:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 11:20:28 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 01:49:35 AM
This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.
It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said
But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy alive and well.
O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.
I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.
Its simple. Team penalties.
Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.
Team penalties are the way to go. Heavy penalties at that
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 02:32:01 PM
One sure thing is that the gaa are definitely amature when it comes to enforcing rules or applying consistency.
While I agree on a lack of consistency the GAA will point out that the decisions of the referee were enforced in the Dublin v Kerry game, the Armagh v Donegal game and the Armagh v Tyrone game. The only person cited who was not picked out by referee was Rian O'Neill - and he won his appeal.
Quote from: LCohen on April 12, 2022, 05:11:00 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 12:25:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 11:20:28 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 01:49:35 AM
This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.
It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said
But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy alive and well.
O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.
I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.
Its simple. Team penalties.
Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.
Team penalties are the way to go. Heavy penalties at that
Give us an example of a team penalty that would be an effective deterrent.
Quote from: Throw ball on April 12, 2022, 06:54:13 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 02:32:01 PM
One sure thing is that the gaa are definitely amature when it comes to enforcing rules or applying consistency.
While I agree on a lack of consistency the GAA will point out that the decisions of the referee were enforced in the Dublin v Kerry game, the Armagh v Donegal game and the Armagh v Tyrone game. The only person cited who was not picked out by referee was Rian O'Neill - and he won his appeal.
Not really. In the Dublin game there were 6 or 7 players in the meele. More in the tyrone game then even more in the Donegal game. How does a ref pick a handful of players out in all of that.
Rian was the only one caught clearly striking but somehow he's the one that gets off
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 08:09:15 PM
Quote from: Throw ball on April 12, 2022, 06:54:13 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 02:32:01 PM
One sure thing is that the gaa are definitely amature when it comes to enforcing rules or applying consistency.
While I agree on a lack of consistency the GAA will point out that the decisions of the referee were enforced in the Dublin v Kerry game, the Armagh v Donegal game and the Armagh v Tyrone game. The only person cited who was not picked out by referee was Rian O'Neill - and he won his appeal.
Not really. In the Dublin game there were 6 or 7 players in the meele. More in the tyrone game then even more in the Donegal game. How does a ref pick a handful of players out in all of that.
Rian was the only one caught clearly striking but somehow he's the one that gets off
It certainly wasn't a clear strike. He certainly had a case to answer and I think had the referee reported it the video evidence wouldn't have cleared him but it's a different test for the CCC to cite someone missed by the referee
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 08:09:15 PM
Quote from: Throw ball on April 12, 2022, 06:54:13 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 02:32:01 PM
One sure thing is that the gaa are definitely amature when it comes to enforcing rules or applying consistency.
While I agree on a lack of consistency the GAA will point out that the decisions of the referee were enforced in the Dublin v Kerry game, the Armagh v Donegal game and the Armagh v Tyrone game. The only person cited who was not picked out by referee was Rian O'Neill - and he won his appeal.
Not really. In the Dublin game there were 6 or 7 players in the meele. More in the tyrone game then even more in the Donegal game. How does a ref pick a handful of players out in all of that.
Rian was the only one caught clearly striking but somehow he's the one that gets off
This is the problem that was alluded to earlier. What is contributing to a melee. It can't be striking or even headlocks as they fall under other offences. So contributing to a melee can only really be the 3rd man in. Therefore we should have had a raft of suspensions from the Tyrone v Armagh, Kerry v Dublin and Armagh v Donegal. So the gaa need to either go all in and have chaos for a year or so while teams readjust to strict rules on 3rd man in. Or do away with it altogether as This half assed, undefined in between mess is going to rumble on.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on April 12, 2022, 08:50:56 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 08:09:15 PM
Quote from: Throw ball on April 12, 2022, 06:54:13 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 02:32:01 PM
One sure thing is that the gaa are definitely amature when it comes to enforcing rules or applying consistency.
While I agree on a lack of consistency the GAA will point out that the decisions of the referee were enforced in the Dublin v Kerry game, the Armagh v Donegal game and the Armagh v Tyrone game. The only person cited who was not picked out by referee was Rian O'Neill - and he won his appeal.
Not really. In the Dublin game there were 6 or 7 players in the meele. More in the tyrone game then even more in the Donegal game. How does a ref pick a handful of players out in all of that.
Rian was the only one caught clearly striking but somehow he's the one that gets off
This is the problem that was alluded to earlier. What is contributing to a melee. It can't be striking or even headlocks as they fall under other offences. So contributing to a melee can only really be the 3rd man in. Therefore we should have had a raft of suspensions from the Tyrone v Armagh, Kerry v Dublin and Armagh v Donegal. So the gaa need to either go all in and have chaos for a year or so while teams readjust to strict rules on 3rd man in. Or do away with it altogether as This half assed, undefined in between mess is going to rumble on.
Problem is they already punished people for contributing to a melee when there was only two involved. Jason Forde being a prime example.
Gaa too busy organising concerts to worry about the rulebook. A all team suitable deterent? Forfeit all home games the following year plus big fine to start with.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on April 12, 2022, 08:50:56 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 08:09:15 PM
Quote from: Throw ball on April 12, 2022, 06:54:13 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 02:32:01 PM
One sure thing is that the gaa are definitely amature when it comes to enforcing rules or applying consistency.
While I agree on a lack of consistency the GAA will point out that the decisions of the referee were enforced in the Dublin v Kerry game, the Armagh v Donegal game and the Armagh v Tyrone game. The only person cited who was not picked out by referee was Rian O'Neill - and he won his appeal.
Not really. In the Dublin game there were 6 or 7 players in the meele. More in the tyrone game then even more in the Donegal game. How does a ref pick a handful of players out in all of that.
Rian was the only one caught clearly striking but somehow he's the one that gets off
This is the problem that was alluded to earlier. What is contributing to a melee. It can't be striking or even headlocks as they fall under other offences. So contributing to a melee can only really be the 3rd man in. Therefore we should have had a raft of suspensions from the Tyrone v Armagh, Kerry v Dublin and Armagh v Donegal. So the gaa need to either go all in and have chaos for a year or so while teams readjust to strict rules on 3rd man in. Or do away with it altogether as This half assed, undefined in between mess is going to rumble on.
Bizarre that people want bans given out for pushing and shoving.
The only bans given in the matches above were for violent conduct, such as striking, headlocks, etc. Hence, relatively few bans across all the games and none in the Kerry v Dublin game.
There's been 20 pages of crying and whinging about being banned for 'contributing to a melee' when in the vast vast majority of cases, the only way anyone ever gets banned for 'contributing to a melee' is by engaging in violent conduct while doing so.
Quote from: lenny on April 12, 2022, 06:58:30 PM
Quote from: LCohen on April 12, 2022, 05:11:00 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 12, 2022, 12:25:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 11:20:28 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 12, 2022, 01:49:35 AM
This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.
It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said
But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy alive and well.
O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.
I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.
Its simple. Team penalties.
Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.
Team penalties are the way to go. Heavy penalties at that
Give us an example of a team penalty that would be an effective deterrent.
It's easy to think of a deterrent. All you have to do is make it very punitive e.g. heavy financial penalty, suspension from competition, embargo on holding home games. Heavier versions of these penalties to be held over for second offences.
The question is not can you think of a deterrent but whether you can get it through Congress.
The disciplinary process and the melee both need looked at.
Penalties have to stick or there is no point in them. I welcome the position the referees are taking of standing back and gathering what evidence they can. Worth noting that the punishments based upon the referee's view stuck whereas the camera didn't.
So far there is a clear position of looking for punches, headlocks or throwing to the ground rather than just grabbing a jersey. I don't think this goes far enough. The joining in also needs punished. If you deter that then you don't get the punches, headlocks etc.
Ultimately this will come to a head when a serious injury is inflicted. There is a basic presumption that something that happens on a pitch won't end in a court of law. Which is true right up to the point where it isn't.
Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2022, 07:55:44 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on April 12, 2022, 08:50:56 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 08:09:15 PM
Quote from: Throw ball on April 12, 2022, 06:54:13 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 12, 2022, 02:32:01 PM
One sure thing is that the gaa are definitely amature when it comes to enforcing rules or applying consistency.
While I agree on a lack of consistency the GAA will point out that the decisions of the referee were enforced in the Dublin v Kerry game, the Armagh v Donegal game and the Armagh v Tyrone game. The only person cited who was not picked out by referee was Rian O'Neill - and he won his appeal.
Not really. In the Dublin game there were 6 or 7 players in the meele. More in the tyrone game then even more in the Donegal game. How does a ref pick a handful of players out in all of that.
Rian was the only one caught clearly striking but somehow he's the one that gets off
This is the problem that was alluded to earlier. What is contributing to a melee. It can't be striking or even headlocks as they fall under other offences. So contributing to a melee can only really be the 3rd man in. Therefore we should have had a raft of suspensions from the Tyrone v Armagh, Kerry v Dublin and Armagh v Donegal. So the gaa need to either go all in and have chaos for a year or so while teams readjust to strict rules on 3rd man in. Or do away with it altogether as This half assed, undefined in between mess is going to rumble on.
Bizarre that people want bans given out for pushing and shoving.
The only bans given in the matches above were for violent conduct, such as striking, headlocks, etc. Hence, relatively few bans across all the games and none in the Kerry v Dublin game.
There's been 20 pages of crying and whinging about being banned for 'contributing to a melee' when in the vast vast majority of cases, the only way anyone ever gets banned for 'contributing to a melee' is by engaging in violent conduct while doing so.
Sorry Hound, that's complete nonsense. The Rules already have
- Striking or attempting to strike with arm, elbow, hand, knee or head
Behaving in a way which is dangerous to an opponent.
Why would they use the contributing to a melee instead of the much more obvious and clear infringement?
Plus there was grappling and throwing down of players in the Dub v Kerry game. Your trying to define the infringement to suit your very clear Dub bias.
Nah, we looking bans/fines for subs and backroom staff all getting involved from the sidelines when they no need to get involved. Just brings the sport into the gutter.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 13, 2022, 10:25:42 AM
Nah, we looking bans/fines for subs and backroom staff all getting involved from the sidelines when they no need to get involved. Just brings the sport into the gutter.
The thing about this incident in particular is the game was over so naturally subs/management will be out of the dugout anyway for a cooldown/team huddle/handshake. Agreed that in general though big punishment for non players running on to get involved in handbags.
Maurice deegan ref next week
When is the banter commencing?
All Armagh players have had their suspensions overturned
Instigation of brawl by Donegal seems to have completely backfired on them at this stage.
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 19, 2022, 08:58:43 PM
All Armagh players have had their suspensions overturned
Fair play to Armagh for standing by their players and obviously using every resource to get the unfair bans lifted. I think it's good for the game that Armagh have tested the questionable treatment, compared to other teams.
Ironically it probably puts a bit of extra pressure on them to perform now on Sunday.
Will Donegal now appeal?
;)
Quote from: Gael80 on April 19, 2022, 09:15:38 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 19, 2022, 08:58:43 PM
All Armagh players have had their suspensions overturned
Fair play to Armagh for standing by their players and obviously using every resource to get the unfair bans lifted. I think it's good for the game that Armagh have tested the questionable treatment, compared to other teams.
Ironically it probably puts a bit of extra pressure on them to perform now on Sunday.
Will Donegal now appeal?
I would have thought they were out of time
Armagh have played a blunder here and proper justice has prevailed. Donegal now left looking extremely foolish having not appealed their suspensions. Masterstroke by geezer.
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 19, 2022, 08:58:43 PM
All Armagh players have had their suspensions overturned
On what basis?
So much for oisin saying teams should take their medicine and not appeal. Pressure on armagh now. No excuses anymore.
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 19, 2022, 09:59:56 PM
So much for oisin saying teams should take their medicine and not appeal. Pressure on armagh now. No excuses anymore.
Did Oisin make the appeal? I didn't realise that someone not connected with the team could do so
Hope they beat now, nobody accepts punishment for anything these days.
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 19, 2022, 10:13:19 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 19, 2022, 09:59:56 PM
So much for oisin saying teams should take their medicine and not appeal. Pressure on armagh now. No excuses anymore.
Did Oisin make the appeal? I didn't realise that someone not connected with the team could do so
He was quick off the mark to get the dig in at tyrone , haven't heard him mention this at all. Geezer was also laughing that tyrone most likely would appeal their ban, then goes and does the same thing himself
Ironically all this does is heap more pressure onto Armagh. If the fail to best an under preforming Donegal team it shows Armagh havent progressed.
When Armagh fail abjectly for the 19th time in 20 seasons they can take comfort in this small victory
Quote from: clarshack on April 19, 2022, 09:53:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 19, 2022, 08:58:43 PM
All Armagh players have had their suspensions overturned
On what basis?
Don't know. But then we never really got to here what the charges were on what the evidence against them was. Mackin did look guilty to me on the video but he is out injured so suspended or not it makes no difference.
I thought Tyrone boys would be happy they got off. More likely McKenna will get cleared now?
Sorry I forgot. They won't appeal.
Quote from: LCohen on April 19, 2022, 10:20:53 PM
Quote from: clarshack on April 19, 2022, 09:53:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 19, 2022, 08:58:43 PM
All Armagh players have had their suspensions overturned
On what basis?
Don't know. But then we never really got to here what the charges were on what the evidence against them was. Mackin did look guilty to me on the video but he is out injured so suspended or not it makes no difference.
I assume on the grounds of appeal they had to appeal all to be consistent.
It says much for how much Mackin has come on in that I think he will be biggest miss of the three.
This should be an interesting game. Two teams that promise plenty but have severely under delivered. Donegal are going no-where fast under Bonner and have regressed each year since he took over after a bright start. Armagh are over hyped every year but have delivered absolutely nothing when it comes to C'ship. Both teams will be desperate not to lose - it has a draw written all over it. Has it to finish on the day or can there be a replay? Penalties, could be fun.
Well, thank f**k their suspensions were overturned.
Now, if we could only get through the next week without this thread turning into a whingefest about the referee on Sunday and all the injustices HE will rain down on them...
If there is a 6 county nordie whingefest about how the ref fracked them over, well that means you have beaten them and beaten them black and blue.
Quote from: Main Street on April 21, 2022, 01:47:05 AM
If there is a 6 county nordie whingefest about how the ref fracked them over, well that means you have beaten them and beaten them black and blue.
Not necessarily. Some of our fellow board members from across the border get enraged about the "imbalanced" refereeing regardless of the result. In some cases they win despite the biased referee. ;D
Quote from: J70 on April 21, 2022, 12:58:41 AM
Well, thank f**k their suspensions were overturned.
Now, if we could only get through the next week without this thread turning into a whingefest about the referee on Sunday and all the injustices HE will rain down on them...
I happen to think Deegan is one of the better refs and am happy enough with him. That said, I reserve the right to change my opinion haha
I love Armagh's ability to trigger so many freestaters
Good luck to our 6 county neighbours. Never easy taking on teams from the south when they have the backing of the officials. Donegal will try every trick in the book in Ballybofey, Armagh have to try and rise above it and play football.
Quote from: Redhand Santa on April 21, 2022, 08:02:29 AM
Good luck to our 6 county neighbours. Never easy taking on teams from the south when they have the backing of the officials. Donegal will try every trick in the book in Ballybofey, Armagh have to try and rise above it and play football.
Northern Ireland abu
Whilst it is not quite now or never for Armagh it does feel as though they are well overdue a big championship win and I think we will get a big performance on Sunday. The defence has improved a lot this season and we have the ammunition to trouble a Donegal defence which will give you chances. So I think we could see a fairly high scoring game that could well go to the wire but I think Armagh have a greater need for a win and can come out on top to give us a great chance of getting back to an Ulster final.
Quote from: Redhand Santa on April 21, 2022, 08:02:29 AM
Good luck to our 6 county neighbours. Never easy taking on teams from the south when they have the backing of the officials. Donegal will try every trick in the book in Ballybofey, Armagh have to try and rise above it and play football.
It's crazy that no Donegal players were suspended, pure bias.
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 11:56:13 AM
Quote from: Redhand Santa on April 21, 2022, 08:02:29 AM
Good luck to our 6 county neighbours. Never easy taking on teams from the south when they have the backing of the officials. Donegal will try every trick in the book in Ballybofey, Armagh have to try and rise above it and play football.
It's crazy that no Donegal players were suspended, pure bias.
Ferry and McGee are suspended. McGee wouldn't have played anyway so both teams have one starting player suspended so there are no excuses for either side.
Any chance of good melee breaking out?
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 01:07:32 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 11:56:13 AM
Quote from: Redhand Santa on April 21, 2022, 08:02:29 AM
Good luck to our 6 county neighbours. Never easy taking on teams from the south when they have the backing of the officials. Donegal will try every trick in the book in Ballybofey, Armagh have to try and rise above it and play football.
It's crazy that no Donegal players were suspended, pure bias.
Ferry and McGee are suspended. McGee wouldn't have played anyway so both teams have one starting player suspended so there are no excuses for either side.
So the team from the "south" didn't have the backing of the officials in this case?
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 11:32:02 AM
Whilst it is not quite now or never for Armagh it does feel as though they are well overdue a big championship win and I think we will get a big performance on Sunday. The defence has improved a lot this season and we have the ammunition to trouble a Donegal defence which will give you chances. So I think we could see a fairly high scoring game that could well go to the wire but I think Armagh have a greater need for a win and can come out on top to give us a great chance of getting back to an Ulster final.
It's a great opportunity to deliver on potential and I am hopeful of a famous orchard victory. If things go right on the day Armagh have every chance but need the forwards to deliver. The competition for places in the forward line is the type of headache every manager dreams of and some of them are flying by all accounts. Defence worries me though, have we enough to keep a lid on Murphy, McBrearty and co? There's the added psychological boost of having O'Neill, Campbell and Nugent available so the team should be full of confidence going into the game.
Rafferty
Morgan/Burns
Forker
McKay
Mackin
McCabe
JOB
Grimley
Crealey
Kelly
Grugan
Nugent
Turbitt
Rian
Murnin
Subs
Oisin ONeill
Soupy
Duffy
Hall
Shields
Oisín McConville let himself down on the Examiner's podcast talking about social media campaigns and other things being orchestrated against Armagh. You could sense the other lads trying to keep the conversation afloat while stopping McConville from unravelling any further.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40855121.html
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 02:07:50 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 01:07:32 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 11:56:13 AM
Quote from: Redhand Santa on April 21, 2022, 08:02:29 AM
Good luck to our 6 county neighbours. Never easy taking on teams from the south when they have the backing of the officials. Donegal will try every trick in the book in Ballybofey, Armagh have to try and rise above it and play football.
It's crazy that no Donegal players were suspended, pure bias.
Ferry and McGee are suspended. McGee wouldn't have played anyway so both teams have one starting player suspended so there are no excuses for either side.
So the team from the "south" didn't have the backing of the officials in this case?
I've never claimed otherwise.
Quote from: 5times5times on April 21, 2022, 02:46:22 PM
Rafferty
Morgan/Burns
Forker
McKay
Mackin
McCabe
JOB
Grimley
Crealey
Kelly
Grugan
Nugent
Turbitt
Rian
Murnin
Subs
Oisin ONeill
Soupy
Duffy
Hall
Shields
I hope i'm wrong but not sure if Ben Crealey has the strength and experience for Championship football. Other than that that team might not be far away. Suppose depends how they're going in training Oisin and Turbit may be sprung from the bench as they've been out for a while. There is goals in that team and i believe we'll have to score a couple to beat Donegal. The bench either way for Armagh will be strong
Quote from: 5times5times on April 21, 2022, 02:46:22 PM
Rafferty
Morgan/Burns
Forker
McKay
Mackin
McCabe
JOB
Grimley
Crealey
Kelly
Grugan
Nugent
Turbitt
Rian
Murnin
Subs
Oisin ONeill
Soupy
Duffy
Hall
Shields
Rowland out?
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 02:57:45 PM
Oisín McConville let himself down on the Examiner's podcast talking about social media campaigns and other things being orchestrated against Armagh. You could sense the other lads trying to keep the conversation afloat while stopping McConville from unravelling any further.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40855121.html
That's an excellent interview where Oisin simply confirms what many people thought at the time - that the whole incident was deliberately orchestrated by Donegal. He also makes a very good point that the Donegal lads didn't appeal as they felt they were guilty of something.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 04:49:32 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 02:57:45 PM
Oisín McConville let himself down on the Examiner's podcast talking about social media campaigns and other things being orchestrated against Armagh. You could sense the other lads trying to keep the conversation afloat while stopping McConville from unravelling any further.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40855121.html
That's an excellent interview where Oisin simply confirms what many people thought at the time - that the whole incident was deliberately orchestrated by Donegal. He also makes a very good point that the Donegal lads didn't appeal as they felt they were guilty of something.
You're an Armagh supporter I'm guessing then. How can Oisín McConville 'confirm' anything in this instance? He was rightly told by the host of the podcast that all he was offering was speculation, which he then attempted to backtrack from. Awful interview.
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 02:57:45 PM
Oisín McConville let himself down on the Examiner's podcast talking about social media campaigns and other things being orchestrated against Armagh. You could sense the other lads trying to keep the conversation afloat while stopping McConville from unravelling any further.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40855121.html
Used to like oisin but he is as biased as they come. He told tyrone to suck up it and accept there punishment now he's on the radio crying some how Donegal set the whole thing up and Armagh are completely innocent
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 05:02:15 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 04:49:32 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 02:57:45 PM
Oisín McConville let himself down on the Examiner's podcast talking about social media campaigns and other things being orchestrated against Armagh. You could sense the other lads trying to keep the conversation afloat while stopping McConville from unravelling any further.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40855121.html
That's an excellent interview where Oisin simply confirms what many people thought at the time - that the whole incident was deliberately orchestrated by Donegal. He also makes a very good point that the Donegal lads didn't appeal as they felt they were guilty of something.
You're an Armagh supporter I'm guessing then. How can Oisín McConville 'confirm' anything in this instance? He was rightly told by the host of the podcast that all he was offering was speculation, which he then attempted to backtrack from. Awful interview.
The host nor the other guests were not really aware of what took place during the game but Oisin McConville was well informed. He confirmed what most people thought at the time, in that Donegal deliberately orchestrated the row and tried to pull a fast one. I would also add that they were afraid that Murphy might get hauled up and also suspended if they had appealed the original suspensions.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 05:25:33 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 05:02:15 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 04:49:32 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 02:57:45 PM
Oisín McConville let himself down on the Examiner's podcast talking about social media campaigns and other things being orchestrated against Armagh. You could sense the other lads trying to keep the conversation afloat while stopping McConville from unravelling any further.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40855121.html
That's an excellent interview where Oisin simply confirms what many people thought at the time - that the whole incident was deliberately orchestrated by Donegal. He also makes a very good point that the Donegal lads didn't appeal as they felt they were guilty of something.
You're an Armagh supporter I'm guessing then. How can Oisín McConville 'confirm' anything in this instance? He was rightly told by the host of the podcast that all he was offering was speculation, which he then attempted to backtrack from. Awful interview.
The host nor the other guests were not really aware of what took place during the game but Oisin McConville was well informed. He confirmed what most people thought at the time, in that Donegal deliberately orchestrated the row and tried to pull a fast one. I would also add that they were afraid that Murphy might get hauled up and also suspended if they had appealed the original suspensions.
So somehow Donegal knew that if they started a row that Armagh would react but also somehow that they would get away with it while armagh got the punishment. Jesus that's better foresight that mystic meg
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 21, 2022, 05:28:00 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 05:25:33 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 05:02:15 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 04:49:32 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 02:57:45 PM
Oisín McConville let himself down on the Examiner's podcast talking about social media campaigns and other things being orchestrated against Armagh. You could sense the other lads trying to keep the conversation afloat while stopping McConville from unravelling any further.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40855121.html
That's an excellent interview where Oisin simply confirms what many people thought at the time - that the whole incident was deliberately orchestrated by Donegal. He also makes a very good point that the Donegal lads didn't appeal as they felt they were guilty of something.
You're an Armagh supporter I'm guessing then. How can Oisín McConville 'confirm' anything in this instance? He was rightly told by the host of the podcast that all he was offering was speculation, which he then attempted to backtrack from. Awful interview.
The host nor the other guests were not really aware of what took place during the game but Oisin McConville was well informed. He confirmed what most people thought at the time, in that Donegal deliberately orchestrated the row and tried to pull a fast one. I would also add that they were afraid that Murphy might get hauled up and also suspended if they had appealed the original suspensions.
So somehow Donegal knew that if they started a row that Armagh would react but also somehow that they would get away with it while armagh got the punishment. Jesus that's better foresight that mystic meg
They tried to provoke a reaction and got what they wanted initially. Except that it backfired on them when they didn't appeal the original suspensions and all of the Armagh players were then rightly exonerated.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 05:47:39 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 21, 2022, 05:28:00 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 05:25:33 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 05:02:15 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 04:49:32 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 02:57:45 PM
Oisín McConville let himself down on the Examiner's podcast talking about social media campaigns and other things being orchestrated against Armagh. You could sense the other lads trying to keep the conversation afloat while stopping McConville from unravelling any further.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40855121.html
That's an excellent interview where Oisin simply confirms what many people thought at the time - that the whole incident was deliberately orchestrated by Donegal. He also makes a very good point that the Donegal lads didn't appeal as they felt they were guilty of something.
You're an Armagh supporter I'm guessing then. How can Oisín McConville 'confirm' anything in this instance? He was rightly told by the host of the podcast that all he was offering was speculation, which he then attempted to backtrack from. Awful interview.
The host nor the other guests were not really aware of what took place during the game but Oisin McConville was well informed. He confirmed what most people thought at the time, in that Donegal deliberately orchestrated the row and tried to pull a fast one. I would also add that they were afraid that Murphy might get hauled up and also suspended if they had appealed the original suspensions.
So somehow Donegal knew that if they started a row that Armagh would react but also somehow that they would get away with it while armagh got the punishment. Jesus that's better foresight that mystic meg
They tried to provoke a reaction and got what they wanted initially. Except that it backfired on them when they didn't appeal the original suspensions and all of the Armagh players were then rightly exonerated.
[/b]
In a sentence, why was Rian O'Neill, who was seen striking rightly exonerated?
Quote from: JoG2 on April 21, 2022, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 05:47:39 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 21, 2022, 05:28:00 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 05:25:33 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 05:02:15 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 04:49:32 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 02:57:45 PM
Oisín McConville let himself down on the Examiner's podcast talking about social media campaigns and other things being orchestrated against Armagh. You could sense the other lads trying to keep the conversation afloat while stopping McConville from unravelling any further.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40855121.html
That's an excellent interview where Oisin simply confirms what many people thought at the time - that the whole incident was deliberately orchestrated by Donegal. He also makes a very good point that the Donegal lads didn't appeal as they felt they were guilty of something.
You're an Armagh supporter I'm guessing then. How can Oisín McConville 'confirm' anything in this instance? He was rightly told by the host of the podcast that all he was offering was speculation, which he then attempted to backtrack from. Awful interview.
The host nor the other guests were not really aware of what took place during the game but Oisin McConville was well informed. He confirmed what most people thought at the time, in that Donegal deliberately orchestrated the row and tried to pull a fast one. I would also add that they were afraid that Murphy might get hauled up and also suspended if they had appealed the original suspensions.
So somehow Donegal knew that if they started a row that Armagh would react but also somehow that they would get away with it while armagh got the punishment. Jesus that's better foresight that mystic meg
They tried to provoke a reaction and got what they wanted initially. Except that it backfired on them when they didn't appeal the original suspensions and all of the Armagh players were then rightly exonerated.
[/b]
In a sentence, why was Rian O'Neill, who was seen striking rightly exonerated?
Because he was not "seen" by the referee.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 21, 2022, 05:55:43 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on April 21, 2022, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 05:47:39 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 21, 2022, 05:28:00 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 05:25:33 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 05:02:15 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 04:49:32 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 02:57:45 PM
Oisín McConville let himself down on the Examiner's podcast talking about social media campaigns and other things being orchestrated against Armagh. You could sense the other lads trying to keep the conversation afloat while stopping McConville from unravelling any further.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40855121.html
That's an excellent interview where Oisin simply confirms what many people thought at the time - that the whole incident was deliberately orchestrated by Donegal. He also makes a very good point that the Donegal lads didn't appeal as they felt they were guilty of something.
You're an Armagh supporter I'm guessing then. How can Oisín McConville 'confirm' anything in this instance? He was rightly told by the host of the podcast that all he was offering was speculation, which he then attempted to backtrack from. Awful interview.
The host nor the other guests were not really aware of what took place during the game but Oisin McConville was well informed. He confirmed what most people thought at the time, in that Donegal deliberately orchestrated the row and tried to pull a fast one. I would also add that they were afraid that Murphy might get hauled up and also suspended if they had appealed the original suspensions.
So somehow Donegal knew that if they started a row that Armagh would react but also somehow that they would get away with it while armagh got the punishment. Jesus that's better foresight that mystic meg
They tried to provoke a reaction and got what they wanted initially. Except that it backfired on them when they didn't appeal the original suspensions and all of the Armagh players were then rightly exonerated.
[/b]
In a sentence, why was Rian O'Neill, who was seen striking rightly exonerated?
Because he was not "seen" by the referee.
But he was caught on video striking which is a 1 game ban. So why 'rightly exonerated' as yellowcard stated?
Quote from: JoG2 on April 21, 2022, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 05:47:39 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 21, 2022, 05:28:00 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 05:25:33 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 05:02:15 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 04:49:32 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 02:57:45 PM
Oisín McConville let himself down on the Examiner's podcast talking about social media campaigns and other things being orchestrated against Armagh. You could sense the other lads trying to keep the conversation afloat while stopping McConville from unravelling any further.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40855121.html
That's an excellent interview where Oisin simply confirms what many people thought at the time - that the whole incident was deliberately orchestrated by Donegal. He also makes a very good point that the Donegal lads didn't appeal as they felt they were guilty of something.
You're an Armagh supporter I'm guessing then. How can Oisín McConville 'confirm' anything in this instance? He was rightly told by the host of the podcast that all he was offering was speculation, which he then attempted to backtrack from. Awful interview.
The host nor the other guests were not really aware of what took place during the game but Oisin McConville was well informed. He confirmed what most people thought at the time, in that Donegal deliberately orchestrated the row and tried to pull a fast one. I would also add that they were afraid that Murphy might get hauled up and also suspended if they had appealed the original suspensions.
So somehow Donegal knew that if they started a row that Armagh would react but also somehow that they would get away with it while armagh got the punishment. Jesus that's better foresight that mystic meg
They tried to provoke a reaction and got what they wanted initially. Except that it backfired on them when they didn't appeal the original suspensions and all of the Armagh players were then rightly exonerated.
[/b]
In a sentence, why was Rian O'Neill, who was seen striking rightly exonerated?
Because apparently proper procedure was not applied, it's all in the interview.
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 21, 2022, 05:28:00 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 05:25:33 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 05:02:15 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 04:49:32 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 02:57:45 PM
Oisín McConville let himself down on the Examiner's podcast talking about social media campaigns and other things being orchestrated against Armagh. You could sense the other lads trying to keep the conversation afloat while stopping McConville from unravelling any further.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40855121.html
That's an excellent interview where Oisin simply confirms what many people thought at the time - that the whole incident was deliberately orchestrated by Donegal. He also makes a very good point that the Donegal lads didn't appeal as they felt they were guilty of something.
You're an Armagh supporter I'm guessing then. How can Oisín McConville 'confirm' anything in this instance? He was rightly told by the host of the podcast that all he was offering was speculation, which he then attempted to backtrack from. Awful interview.
The host nor the other guests were not really aware of what took place during the game but Oisin McConville was well informed. He confirmed what most people thought at the time, in that Donegal deliberately orchestrated the row and tried to pull a fast one. I would also add that they were afraid that Murphy might get hauled up and also suspended if they had appealed the original suspensions.
So somehow Donegal knew that if they started a row that Armagh would react but also somehow that they would get away with it while armagh got the punishment. Jesus that's better foresight that mystic meg
It's getting embarrassing at this point.
J70 your probably the best to ask, is there any decent bars or somewhere for a good bite to eat around ballybofey?
Honestly, these days I wouldn't be the best one to ask. I rarely get home and if I do, I'm from far enough away that I wouldn't be in the twin towns except passing through on the way to Letterkenny or going there for a match, and close enough that I wouldn't be eating or drinking there anyway.
There's probably Tyrone lads who'd be better positioned to advise you.
Quote from: anportmorforjfc on April 21, 2022, 07:58:31 PM
J70 your probably the best to ask, is there any decent bars or somewhere for a good bite to eat around ballybofey?
There are, yes, and the bar in Jackson's Hotel is probably as good as any on matchday, and good for a bite there too. On the Main Street in Ballybofey, you'll also have the Villa Rose, and various other options for bars and bites, all of which are just beside Páirc Mac Cumhaill.
Quote from: JoG2 on April 21, 2022, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 05:47:39 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 21, 2022, 05:28:00 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 05:25:33 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 05:02:15 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 21, 2022, 04:49:32 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 21, 2022, 02:57:45 PM
Oisín McConville let himself down on the Examiner's podcast talking about social media campaigns and other things being orchestrated against Armagh. You could sense the other lads trying to keep the conversation afloat while stopping McConville from unravelling any further.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40855121.html
That's an excellent interview where Oisin simply confirms what many people thought at the time - that the whole incident was deliberately orchestrated by Donegal. He also makes a very good point that the Donegal lads didn't appeal as they felt they were guilty of something.
You're an Armagh supporter I'm guessing then. How can Oisín McConville 'confirm' anything in this instance? He was rightly told by the host of the podcast that all he was offering was speculation, which he then attempted to backtrack from. Awful interview.
The host nor the other guests were not really aware of what took place during the game but Oisin McConville was well informed. He confirmed what most people thought at the time, in that Donegal deliberately orchestrated the row and tried to pull a fast one. I would also add that they were afraid that Murphy might get hauled up and also suspended if they had appealed the original suspensions.
So somehow Donegal knew that if they started a row that Armagh would react but also somehow that they would get away with it while armagh got the punishment. Jesus that's better foresight that mystic meg
They tried to provoke a reaction and got what they wanted initially. Except that it backfired on them when they didn't appeal the original suspensions and all of the Armagh players were then rightly exonerated.
[/b]
In a sentence, why was Rian O'Neill, who was seen striking rightly exonerated?
I think this was discussed previously. Rian's actions were not as clear cut as you suggest. He didn't swing a punch. He pushed his hand out which he would suggest was to push away an aggressor. Others think differently. I think his defence , however, would have been that fair process was not followed in that he was picked out in the video evidence while others - from both counties- did worse or similar and did not get picked out.
As for Oisin. I didn't hear what he said but he is always likely to defend his nephew.
Haven't commented on the suspensions etc and my take on it is Croke Park should hire Joe Brolly, F Logan etc and the guys who know how to get people off on a technicality and rewrite the rule book once and for all so there is no more of this crap.
As for game Donegal are 5/6 and Armagh 11/8 to win the game and i'm very surprised by them odds, I would have thought Donegal would have been bigger favourites for the game with their record at home and their number over Armagh for the last decade and more. It is the strongest Armagh team in a Decade TBF so no better time to break the hoodoo but it will be tough. I believe Armagh will have to score a goal or two to win and they have the firepower to do so but can we keep them out at the other end?. Paddy McBrearty is difficult to stop and there are Brennan and Murphy which can cause havoc.
Will provincials mean even less next season because of the new format i see they will use league standings to seed teams i thought they might have seeded the four provincial champions in each group.
I've listened to a few previews where the consensus is that it will be a tight low scoring encounter that will go down to the wire. I think it will be tight and will probably go down to the wire alright but I think it could well be a high scoring match. Both sides have question marks over their goalkeepers and defence whilst the strengths of both teams would appear to be in attack. I just think that Armagh have a bit more strength in depth than Donegal with subs like Soupy, Oisin O'Neill and Turbitt available to come off the bench. Those 3 players could be the difference come the last 20 minutes of the match. Armagh by 1 point.
I'd agree. Definitely a 50/50 match going in, and I think there'll be plenty of scoring.
That said, there are a few question marks over the match fitness of three or four players who would normally start for Donegal from midfield up, while McFadden-Ferry will be a big miss for us. Bonner said only Gallen is definitely out, but it would be far from the first time for him if he up-playing the fitness of the squad.
Part of me worries that we could be looking at a 1999 scenario when an up and coming Armagh announced themselves to the world in a Ballybofey quarter final (went to a replay that time, but Armagh came back from a seven point deficit in the first ten minutes and never looked back).
Quote from: Eire90 on April 22, 2022, 01:57:07 PM
Will provincials mean even less next season because of the new format i see they will use league standings to seed teams i thought they might have seeded the four provincial champions in each group.
The winners of the provincials will be the 1st seeds.
The losers of the provincials will be the 2nd seeds.
Best four based on league position (after the 8 provincial finalists are taken out) will be 3rd seeds.
Next four based on league position (after the 8 provincial finalists are taken out) will be 4th seeds.
If the Tailteann cup winner from the previous year doesn't qualify via another route (getting to a provincial final or being in the top 8 league teams after the provincial finalists are removed) they will replace the 8th best team from the league as one of the the 4th seeds.
Quote from: J70 on April 22, 2022, 06:34:30 PM
I'd agree. Definitely a 50/50 match going in, and I think there'll be plenty of scoring.
That said, there are a few question marks over the match fitness of three or four players who would normally start for Donegal from midfield up, while McFadden-Ferry will be a big miss for us. Bonner said only Gallen is definitely out, but it would be far from the first time for him if he up-playing the fitness of the squad.
Part of me worries that we could be looking at a 1999 scenario when an up and coming Armagh announced themselves to the world in a Ballybofey quarter final (went to a replay that time, but Armagh came back from a seven point deficit in the first ten minutes and never looked back).
For some strange reason I see this weekend as 1999 revisited and Armagh make it back to the big time.
Sunday will tell us if we have another false dawn but I am definitely feeling positive
Quote from: naka on April 22, 2022, 10:14:34 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 22, 2022, 06:34:30 PM
I'd agree. Definitely a 50/50 match going in, and I think there'll be plenty of scoring.
That said, there are a few question marks over the match fitness of three or four players who would normally start for Donegal from midfield up, while McFadden-Ferry will be a big miss for us. Bonner said only Gallen is definitely out, but it would be far from the first time for him if he up-playing the fitness of the squad.
Part of me worries that we could be looking at a 1999 scenario when an up and coming Armagh announced themselves to the world in a Ballybofey quarter final (went to a replay that time, but Armagh came back from a seven point deficit in the first ten minutes and never looked back).
For some strange reason I see this weekend as 1999 revisited and Armagh make it back to the big time.
Sunday will tell us if we have another false dawn but I am definitely feeling positive
I hope you are right but can't see anything other than a Donegal win. Too many weak leaks on the current team compared to the 1999 team but, as I said, I hope I am proved to be a pessimistic auld git!
Quote from: 5times5times on April 21, 2022, 02:46:22 PM
Rafferty
Morgan
Forker
McKay
Mackin
McCabe
JOB
Grimley
Crealey
Kelly
Grugan
Nugent
Turbitt
Rian
Murnin
Subs
Oisin ONeill
Soupy
Duffy
Hall
Shields
Got 13/15 right! ;D
Rafferty
Morgan Forker McKay
Grimley McCabe JOB
Mackin Crealey
Hall Grugan Kelly
Nugent Oneill Duffy.
Serious bench with Oisin Oneill, Turbitt and Campbell coming on.
https://www.donegallive.ie/news/gaa/796001/quiz-test-your-knowledge-of-donegal-s-clashes-with-armagh.html#.YmKq0_imUwo.twitter
Is this game starting at 2pm?
Yes
Quote from: StephenC on April 23, 2022, 03:08:36 PM
https://www.donegallive.ie/news/gaa/796001/quiz-test-your-knowledge-of-donegal-s-clashes-with-armagh.html#.YmKq0_imUwo.twitter
13/15
That 1982 sideline kick a wee bit before my time.
Score line predictions...
1-12 - 2-11 to Armagh
Don't think Armagh will win, but it could be a huge physcological boost if we do. It is a big game, time to deliver.
Would be very confident that Armagh will win this game
Could go either way but Donegals home record coupled with a track record of their big players counting in championship matches should see them through. Armagh finished the league poorly and have not really had a significant win in the championship with this team yet.
Armagh allowed Tyrone to come down to their patch and bate the shite outta them at the end, in the league.
Donegal will eat them up.
It looks tighter than a duck's arse but I'll go for home advantage swaying the game, despite the knowledge that us very humble Monaghan folk know quite well that Donegal are beatable at home.
Quote from: ONeill on April 24, 2022, 12:13:46 AM
Armagh allowed Tyrone to come down to their patch and bate the shite outta them at the end, in the league.
Donegal will eat them up.
Hardly.....you are delusional.
Armagh have been desperately trying to stitch up their soft under belly. It is still accessible, but I'm not telling yis how.
Quote from: ONeill on April 24, 2022, 12:13:46 AM
Armagh allowed Tyrone to come down to their patch and bate the shite outta them at the end, in the league.
Donegal will eat them up.
Yeah thats what happened. Don't know why we even fielding today.
Quote from: bennydorano on April 23, 2022, 10:58:15 PM
Don't think Armagh will win, but it could be a huge physcological boost if we do. It is a big game, time to deliver.
Agree with that. Two years of divsion 1 football under these lads belts should help in delivering. Saying that regardless of the result today both are capable of reaching the All-Ireland quarter final but i doubt either will reach the last four.
Amazing that Rafferty keeps kicking the ball out to that wing despite having no success with it, mix it up a bit
HT Donegal 0-9 Armagh 0-6. Home side wasteful with their shooting from play.
Quote from: Schkite on April 24, 2022, 02:34:11 PM
Amazing that Rafferty keeps kicking the ball out to that wing despite having no success with it, mix it up a bit
Was thinking the exact same thing
Donegals wayward shooting keeping Armagh in this game.
When pressed, Armagh struggled with kickouts throughout the league. So should be no surprise that it remains a central issue today when Armagh don't seem to have a strategy to overcome the Donegal press. If they don't in second half, only one winner here.
Rafferty has little option with the kickouts with Jemat Hall at WHF, no idea how he makes every starting 15. I'd expect Hall & Duffy to make way. Could have been a lot worse considering Donegal misses. I'm hoping we were playing our into the wind plan and will come alive in the 2nd.
Donegal should have a much bigger lead, they're dominating in midfield and creating loads of chances, but alot of their shooting has been woeful.
Would be worried from an Armagh perspective with the amount of chances they're giving up, and they really need to come up with a better plan for their kickouts as they're being absolutely cleaned there. Not sure how strong this wind is so that could play a factor, but they'd need to make a big improvement. If Donegal get even a bit more clinical, they could be out of sight soon enough.
The wind is strong and diagonal, shooting is not as easy as it might seem from the armchair.
BBC NI saying Ladies aren't getting enough expenses now. Not the same association and it's amateur.
Talking about gender quality. Nobody follows Ladies football and it's an amateur sport yet demanding more money. Bore off with the agenda from GPA.
As for the game itself typical Donegal blanket defence muck. Don't think Cavan will fear either side on this showing.
Doesn't take long for armagh to resort to their usually thuggery. Should have been a red for forker due to multiple strikes
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 24, 2022, 03:04:35 PM
Doesn't take long for armagh to resort to their usually thuggery
Donegal demanding yellow cards of officials also. As bad as each other
Actually amazing that it was Donegal that got the first score of this half
Armagh tackling is always bordering on red card territory every time.
Donegal play the worst football in Ireland. Literally stack 15 inside their 45. For a team of that quality it's awful stuff for neutrals
Goal for Donegal they lead by 7. 46 minutes played.
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 03:10:22 PM
Donegal play the worst football in Ireland. Literally stack 15 inside their 45. For a team of that quality it's awful stuff for neutrals
Great goal though!
The Armagh bubble has been well and truely burst by the Donegal blanket defence.
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 03:06:37 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 24, 2022, 03:04:35 PM
Doesn't take long for armagh to resort to their usually thuggery
Donegal demanding yellow cards of officials also. As bad as each other
Really. Someone striking with a closed fist is as bad as a a player calling for a booking, no way.
I hate the way Donegal are always calling for cards. Mchugh and Murphy are awful for it but in this case they were right.
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 03:10:22 PM
Donegal play the worst football in Ireland. Literally stack 15 inside their 45. For a team of that quality it's awful stuff for neutrals
Agreed.
Ridiculously soft free by Deegan there. Joke decision
As bad as Armagh have been, Deegan is an absolute shambles.
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on April 24, 2022, 03:19:10 PM
As bad as Armagh have been, Deegan is an absolute shambles.
Awful, refereeing gone so down hill any contact is a foul. How is Deegan doing this game?
Good job Armagh got Rian off. Been vital so far 🙄
That was a red for forker
Yes, blame the ref
Surely McGeeney's days must be numbered now
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on April 24, 2022, 03:34:47 PM
Surely McGeeney's days must be numbered now
Not sure what more he can do Donegal have better players!
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on April 24, 2022, 03:34:47 PM
Surely McGeeney's days must be numbered now
He beat Dublin in the league though. Sure twas like winning the All Ireland.
Armagh have the look of a team who trained too hard to stay in Division 1. Know the feeling. Very flat. Donegal very efficient. Some great moves and scores.
Quote from: screenexile on April 24, 2022, 03:35:53 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on April 24, 2022, 03:34:47 PM
Surely McGeeney's days must be numbered now
Not sure what more he can do Donegal have better players!
What? He can focus in attacking instead of defending, he can focus on discipline instead of getting involved in rows. Plenty he can do. Keep him there as long as possible as Armagh aren't going anywhere under him
Pretty disappointing 2nd half from Armagh considering how they started it. They came out flying out of the blocks as they likely got a kick up the hole at half time - but after about 10 minutes or so, they came back into themselves a bit after they didn't eat into Donegal's lead too much. It's like when that fill on assault didn't work, they didn't believe they could get back into it, despite there being a long time left still. They were able to knock over a few more scores but never really looked like threatening Donegal, who always had a healthy lead. And I don't even think Donegal were really impressive, they should have scored an awful lot more. But they still beat Armagh handily enough despite that.
Thought this would be the year for McGeeney to really make an impact on Ulster with Armagh - not that I thought they'd win it outright, but maybe beat Donegal and make a final. With Armagh looking good in the league and staying up, and Donegal looking like they could maybe be got at. But it's the same disappointment for McGeeney again.
Donegal won fairly easily which I say more than 6 weeks back. Donegal don't lose often in Ballybofey, Had the scored half what they missed in the first half they won by more than 10+ points. Murphy chewed them up in the 2nd Half. All the talk of O'Neill, done very little.
FT all too comfortable for Donegal another poor showing in Ulster by Armagh. Donegal 1-16 Armagh 0-12
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 03:06:37 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 24, 2022, 03:04:35 PM
Doesn't take long for armagh to resort to their usually thuggery
Donegal demanding yellow cards of officials also. As bad as each other
Murphy let himself down calling for a red card from the referee.
Very disappointing from Armagh there. Much like yesterday in Antrim a team playing well in the league put in a very poor performance in Championship time.
Wonder what Armagh will appeal about now.
Quote from: clarshack on April 24, 2022, 03:40:50 PM
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 03:06:37 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 24, 2022, 03:04:35 PM
Doesn't take long for armagh to resort to their usually thuggery
Donegal demanding yellow cards of officials also. As bad as each other
Murphy let himself down calling for a red card from the referee.
Agree very soccer esque. Donegal are masters are pressuring referees and the dark arts though.
Armagh needed a lot of things to click and I just knew after that spell straight after halftime that it wasn't going to happen. Even without the questionable refereeing I felt Donegal would have won, just maybe not as comfortably. Armagh were been cleaned out from kickouts and too many key men didn't stand up especially in the forwards. I think McGeeney has brought this team as far as he can, perhaps time for a shake up. Donegal should push on and win Ulster
That was a seven point hammering. Same old flat Armagh in the Ulster championship under McGeeney.
Quote from: clarshack on April 24, 2022, 03:40:50 PM
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 03:06:37 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 24, 2022, 03:04:35 PM
Doesn't take long for armagh to resort to their usually thuggery
Donegal demanding yellow cards of officials also. As bad as each other
Murphy let himself down calling for a red card from the referee.
Every team does it. And it should have been a red card in fairness.
A pretty pathetic display by Armagh you'd have to say.
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 03:41:46 PM
Very disappointing from Armagh there. Much like yesterday in Antrim a team playing well in the league put in a very poor performance in Championship time.
Armagh players and fans got a bit carried away with a few early league wins against weakened teams?
Should have been red alright, must have hit 4 boxes at least.
Thoroughly deserved win for Donegal, very few Armagh players performed to the required level today.
Jeez is Oisin McConville serious, crying match about the red after an embarrassing hiding??
McConville a crying bollix. As biased as Cavannagh for Tyrone on Rte. Had Armagh scored that Goal they still been beat.
Dark arts, who's the man thumping multi fists into a lads ribs,
Quote from: sidelineball on April 24, 2022, 03:48:36 PM
Jeez is Oisin McConville serious, crying match about the red after an embarrassing hiding??
He's giving the ref some stick too.. Armagh were poor and I'm not sure about the 'foul' one could say if the ball is in your hands you can't rip it out of his hands, nor can you 'tackle' him in the small ball
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 24, 2022, 03:53:19 PM
Quote from: sidelineball on April 24, 2022, 03:48:36 PM
Jeez is Oisin McConville serious, crying match about the red after an embarrassing hiding??
He's giving the ref some stick too.. Armagh were poor and I'm not sure about the 'foul' one could say if the ball is in your hands you can't rip it out of his hands, nor can you 'tackle' him in the small ball
The only thing you can't do to a goal-keeper in the small squad is charge (shoulder) him.
Every other form of legitimate tackle is allowed.
Quote from: twohands!!! on April 24, 2022, 03:58:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 24, 2022, 03:53:19 PM
Quote from: sidelineball on April 24, 2022, 03:48:36 PM
Jeez is Oisin McConville serious, crying match about the red after an embarrassing hiding??
He's giving the ref some stick too.. Armagh were poor and I'm not sure about the 'foul' one could say if the ball is in your hands you can't rip it out of his hands, nor can you 'tackle' him in the small ball
The only thing you can't do to a goal-keeper in the small squad is charge (shoulder) him.
Every other form of legitimate tackle is allowed.
You can't rip the ball out of a players hands also
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 24, 2022, 03:59:38 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on April 24, 2022, 03:58:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 24, 2022, 03:53:19 PM
Quote from: sidelineball on April 24, 2022, 03:48:36 PM
Jeez is Oisin McConville serious, crying match about the red after an embarrassing hiding??
He's giving the ref some stick too.. Armagh were poor and I'm not sure about the 'foul' one could say if the ball is in your hands you can't rip it out of his hands, nor can you 'tackle' him in the small ball
The only thing you can't do to a goal-keeper in the small squad is charge (shoulder) him.
Every other form of legitimate tackle is allowed.
You can't rip the ball out of a players hands also
I never said you could.
Quote from: twohands!!! on April 24, 2022, 04:03:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 24, 2022, 03:59:38 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on April 24, 2022, 03:58:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 24, 2022, 03:53:19 PM
Quote from: sidelineball on April 24, 2022, 03:48:36 PM
Jeez is Oisin McConville serious, crying match about the red after an embarrassing hiding??
He's giving the ref some stick too.. Armagh were poor and I'm not sure about the 'foul' one could say if the ball is in your hands you can't rip it out of his hands, nor can you 'tackle' him in the small ball
The only thing you can't do to a goal-keeper in the small squad is charge (shoulder) him.
Every other form of legitimate tackle is allowed.
You can't rip the ball out of a players hands also
I never said you could.
I gave two examples of 'fouls' that the ref could have called for. One thing is for sure he was a lot closer than Oisin
Seriously, when did ye ever see a goal like that stand in your life. The whistle went well before. Would have been very surprised if that stood
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 24, 2022, 04:06:11 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on April 24, 2022, 04:03:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 24, 2022, 03:59:38 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on April 24, 2022, 03:58:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 24, 2022, 03:53:19 PM
Quote from: sidelineball on April 24, 2022, 03:48:36 PM
Jeez is Oisin McConville serious, crying match about the red after an embarrassing hiding??
He's giving the ref some stick too.. Armagh were poor and I'm not sure about the 'foul' one could say if the ball is in your hands you can't rip it out of his hands, nor can you 'tackle' him in the small ball
The only thing you can't do to a goal-keeper in the small squad is charge (shoulder) him.
Every other form of legitimate tackle is allowed.
You can't rip the ball out of a players hands also
I never said you could.
I gave two examples of 'fouls' that the ref could have called for. One thing is for sure he was a lot closer than Oisin
QuoteProvided he has at least one foot on the ground, a player may make a shoulder to shoulder charge on an opponent:-
(a) who is in possession of the ball, or
(b) who is playing the ball other than when kicking it, or
(c) when both players are moving in the direction of the ball to play it.
When he is within the small rectangle, the goalkeeper may not be charged but he may be challenged for possession of the ball, and his kick or pass may be blocked.
Incidental contact with the goalkeeper while playing the ball is permitted.
Surely the method of the "goal" wasn't allowed as it wasnt palmed in or kicked in. More fumbled in while the players were in the small rectangle
The whistle was long gone and it was thrown into the net from what I saw. Could he have taken the mark?
Hate to say it, but Donegal were much the better side—faster, more direct, and masters of the midfield and kick-out. Hard to gauge what effect Rian O'Neill's goal might have had, but all in all this was a walloping. Fair play to the green and gold.
Well done Donegal. Looking forward to locking horns in the semi in a few weeks. But oh my, Armagh are just flakes. All bluster, look fine in League, but bring them into the heat of Championship and they wilt. Some regarded players are easily wrapped up and kept quiet. McGeeney continually flatters to deceive
McGeeney's record in Ulster as manager
In 8 years played 11 games won 2, drew 1 and lost 8
Very disappointing. Donegal by far the better side. A real statement win for them. Deegan was awful but wasn't the difference between the teams. Too far away to see either the goal or the potential red card incident. Also too far to see if the Donegal goal was square ball or not.
Armagh needed things to go their way today. They didn't. O'Neill was as poor as I've ever seen him. The kick out strategy didn't work and there was no plan B. Anything short of a long qualifier run will likely see the end of Geezer but this Armagh team aren't winning Sam so hard to know if even that would be a good thing.
Armagh fans got some dose of reality today. Athletic grounds in February was like Croke Park in September when they beat Tyrone such was the celebrations.
McGeeney surely has to go unless Armagh reach the AI semis?
Quote from: twohands!!! on April 24, 2022, 04:19:54 PM
McGeeney's record in Ulster as manager
In 8 years played 11 games won 2, drew 1 and lost 8
That says it all really. Just as an aside, in 4 years Mickey Graham for Cavan has 7 wins, 1 draw, and 2 losses from 10 games. With 3 wins against Division 2 teams, and 1 title.
Reach the semis, no chance of that.
On another Note, what way will Donegal go when Murphy and McBearty go.
Armagh outclassed today, fair play to Donegal. Armagh were so flat and that's the most concerning thing in a first round championship match ... seems like retaining Div 1 status took it out of them. Unless something dramatic happens in Qualifiers, making All Ireland semi ... Geezer surely is gone, I take no satisfaction from saying it.
The ref was fine, Forker lucky enough not to see red but it been borderline. Even the goal on TV am not sure how it ended up in the net, seemed throw in, hard to tell so not sure how the ref decided. Armagh lads can't tackle properly but that been a steady issue with them past 5+ years.
Quote from: sidelineball on April 24, 2022, 03:45:46 PM
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 03:41:46 PM
Very disappointing from Armagh there. Much like yesterday in Antrim a team playing well in the league put in a very poor performance in Championship time.
Armagh players and fans got a bit carried away with a few early league wins against weakened teams?
I think so. It happens many teams and the media fuel a lot of it.
Armagh are at the Monaghan level now. The league and Division 1 very important and then come Championship time they underperform.
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 04:51:43 PM
Quote from: sidelineball on April 24, 2022, 03:45:46 PM
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 03:41:46 PM
Very disappointing from Armagh there. Much like yesterday in Antrim a team playing well in the league put in a very poor performance in Championship time.
Armagh players and fans got a bit carried away with a few early league wins against weakened teams?
I think so. It happens many teams and the media fuel a lot of it.
Armagh are at the Monaghan level now. The league and Division 1 very important and then come Championship time they underperform.
Monaghan are a level ahead of Armagh.
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 24, 2022, 04:54:05 PM
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 04:51:43 PM
Quote from: sidelineball on April 24, 2022, 03:45:46 PM
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 03:41:46 PM
Very disappointing from Armagh there. Much like yesterday in Antrim a team playing well in the league put in a very poor performance in Championship time.
Armagh players and fans got a bit carried away with a few early league wins against weakened teams?
I think so. It happens many teams and the media fuel a lot of it.
Armagh are at the Monaghan level now. The league and Division 1 very important and then come Championship time they underperform.
Probably but they often underperform in Championship.
Monaghan are a level ahead of Armagh.
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 24, 2022, 04:54:05 PM
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 04:51:43 PM
Quote from: sidelineball on April 24, 2022, 03:45:46 PM
Quote from: full moon on April 24, 2022, 03:41:46 PM
Very disappointing from Armagh there. Much like yesterday in Antrim a team playing well in the league put in a very poor performance in Championship time.
Armagh players and fans got a bit carried away with a few early league wins against weakened teams?
I think so. It happens many teams and the media fuel a lot of it.
Armagh are at the Monaghan level now. The league and Division 1 very important and then come Championship time they underperform.
Monaghan are a level ahead of Armagh.
Are they? Monaghan flatter to deceive last 5 or 6 years overall in Championship, for what is a Division 1 mainstay team. They had better results and titles when going up the divisions in 2013 to 2015, rather than busting their nuts all Spring clinging on to Division 1 by their fingernails
Congratulations to Donegal on a deserved victory. Disappointed with Armagh but not hugely surprised, I wasn't buying the League hype, especially after finding out they'd been training like racehorses since November, we're a decent team but still very much developing - we don't have the steel or experience that the real top teams have.
MF Mackin was a huge loss, dont think I appreciated how good he's been all year, Crealy scored a great point but did little else, there's a few weak links but none more glaring than Hall in the HF line, we're not winning anything with that calibre of player on board. Today his presence showed how badly management misjudged Donegal, we were destroyed in the middle 8 and he was there until 10 mins into the 2nd half. Thought Grugan was excellent today, Morgan & McCabe did well enough.
We didn't have a big pile of luck today, hopefully we'll get a kind draw in the qualifiers, we'll need one to get the show back on the road.
Donegal motored home but Armagh are not yet a busted flush.
The ref did fine, don't know what the moanings are about.
What way does the qualifier draw work now? Could Armagh get Mayo?
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 24, 2022, 04:14:29 PM
Surely the method of the "goal" wasn't allowed as it wasnt palmed in or kicked in. More fumbled in while the players were in the small rectangle
Surely if the ball is in the air and it's slapped into the net there is nothing wrong with that?
Was at match so haven't seen replays. In real time no one around me was surprised that goal didn't count or Forker got a yellow.
This Armagh team have a very soft under belly. It the goal had have counted I have a feeling it would have been a close finish but the disallowed goal followed by a few wides and Donegal goal meant they threw in the towel.
To be honest I wasn't overly impressed with Donegal- which says a lot about Armagh!
Quote from: An Watcher on April 24, 2022, 05:46:10 PM
What way does the qualifier draw work now? Could Armagh get Mayo?
The Preliminary Round and Round 1 ( 8 teams) are open draws.
The 4 winners from Round 1 , play off against four provincial losing finalists in rd 2.
The four winners of rd 2 enter AI Qtr finals with four provincial winners in 2 groups of 4
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 24, 2022, 05:55:55 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on April 24, 2022, 04:14:29 PM
Surely the method of the "goal" wasn't allowed as it wasnt palmed in or kicked in. More fumbled in while the players were in the small rectangle
Surely if the ball is in the air and it's slapped into the net there is nothing wrong with that?
That's what I am not sure about.
That was a massive let down for Armagh fans today, I felt it was a critical juncture for this team and that any sort of win would have been huge. However apart from a 10 minute spell after half time when they failed to capitalise on their dominance they played second fiddle for most of the match.
The forwards were most disappointing and 12 points scored tells its own tale. Turbitt looked to have the beating of his man early on but the supply dried up and Armagh reverted back to slow lateral build up play. Mackin and Crawley were cleaned out at midfield and Hall must be a brilliant trainer because he rarely produces anything during matches yet still retains his place every match.
McCabe, Morgan and McKay all done well enough but there were very few others. Back to the drawing board and at the minute the back door does not hold much appeal as Armagh are not going to win Sam. It's time to reevaluate and hopefully if we get a decent draw maybe we could still make a quarter/semi final.
Donegal surprised me by how strong they were defensively which I thought was their weakness before the game but they got bodies back and gave up very few real goal chances. I think they will have enough to beat Cavan and after that it's a 50/50 Ulster final.
In real time the disallowed goal just after half time was no surprise as goalkeepers are generally an over protected species but I'd need to watch it again on tv tonight.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 24, 2022, 03:53:19 PM
Quote from: sidelineball on April 24, 2022, 03:48:36 PM
Jeez is Oisin McConville serious, crying match about the red after an embarrassing hiding??
He's giving the ref some stick too.. Armagh were poor and I'm not sure about the 'foul' one could say if the ball is in your hands you can't rip it out of his hands, nor can you 'tackle' him in the small ball
Yeah, nobody mentioned that - I thought the ball was ripped from the goalie's hands. During the game when it it happened, Clarke on commentary didn't even mention it. Neither did in the after match analysis either. Hard to know what these lads get paid for.
On Clarke, I thought he was favouring Armagh a bit on commentary. I thought O'Neill's yellow was a yellow. He slid in with intent wheras Mc Hugh's foot wasn't sliding in. He just reached across with no intent.
Armagh needed a few scores just after half-time - had the chances but couldn't convert.
Donegal should have had more scores in the first half.
I'd say Bonnar is delighted this evening. A home game V Armagh but they came through it well with plenty to work on for the next game.
Quote from: sidelineball on April 24, 2022, 04:14:44 PM
The whistle was long gone and it was thrown into the net from what I saw. Could he have taken the mark?
At the time, I thought heshould have punched/flicked it in.
He was on the edge of the square when he caught it.
Well that was a heartening performance after a so-so league. Thoroughly deserved win for our boys on the day. Completely won the midfield battle, even if I was a bit worried at half time with all those poor misses (in fairness the conditions must have been a big factor with Armagh's similar misses in the second). Great games from Murphy, McGee, Shane O'Donnell, Mogan, McHugh, Ban etc.
Will need to bring that intensity and competitiveness to the Cavan game. They ate us alive in that final two years ago. At least we'll be going in prepared this time.
Is there a more riveting sight in GAA than seeing a player like Ban Gallagher turn on the afterburners like Jack McCaffrey and Michael Donnellan used to do?
On the disallowed goal, are you allowed to strip the ball out of the keeper's hands?
Our dismal record in the Ulster championship since 2008 continues. Unfortunately it's hard to find any positives to cling on to for the qualifiers. And even if we do get a run, would that be a sign of progress given we can't win a game in Ulster? We came off second best in most parts of the pitch, but obviously the midfield area and competing on the kick outs was the big problem. The alarm bells were ringing at half time. Young Macken was a huge miss though we probably would have struggled anyway. Rian was pretty quiet by his standards. Maybe Donegal would have gobbled him up but I would like to have seen Rian kept more in around the square and the ball kicked in more to him as a target. Not sure what to make of Donegal. They look assured today and could win Ulster but then again they've flattered to deceive a bit in recent years.
The only people who were blowing up Armagh were there supporters, there last 3/4 league games was not showing outstanding form. Totally ignored the fact that on this pitch Donegal for some reason are notorious hard to beat on.
See goal replay there now, O'Neill basically pulled the ball out of patton arms, sort pushed/throw the ball in the net. McConville may go bck and look at it, giving the amount of shit he was giving the ref about it on BBC.
Quote from: bennydorano on April 24, 2022, 05:01:08 PM
, I wasn't buying the League hype, especially after finding out they'd been training like racehorses since November, we're a decent team but still very much developing - we don't have the steel or experience that the real top teams have.
Yet there were howls of derision on here from Armagh fans when it was pointed out that Armagh were very clearly ahead of a number of teams with their preparation in the early stages of the league. That's not a huge issue as long as Armagh make other gains when everyone else is catching up with fitness but today was the first big test of that and Armagh failed very badly. Not beyond them to still build some momentum through the qualifiers, but unless they do indeed improve there will rightly be a lot of questions about management and how they have prepared this team.
Never seen as many Tyrone ones so happy and leaving their two bit worth and gloating, frig sake wise up men.
As for the game...best team won, was very surprised how easy Donegal won. I'm not sure if Donegal were better than i thought or was Armagh worse than i thought...Maybe a bit of both. Armagh were cleaned out in Midfield and if truth be told we've been poor in this area for a long time and are crying out for a few good midfielders. Someone pointed out earlier post how J Hall keeps his place in starting 15 and how Ben Crealey etc in midfield starts. Stefan Campbell is one of the best forwards around yet is an impact sub...WTF. He's deadly around the edge of the square so play him there and then bring out the field at times if he hasn't the legs to get up and down the pitch for 70 mins (I'm assuming that's why he's not starting).
Anyway in saying all that Donegal were good and fully deserved their win and good luck to them v Cavan. Donegal have some great footballers with pace who are hard to stop. As for Armagh disallowed goal...In replays etc it could have stood but 9 outta 10 Refs would blow for a free out.
On the Referee today and Ref's in general...Is it me or is our games now virtually contact free, it's so frustrating watch any game now and all players have to do is lift their legs up and fall and it's a certain free out...Very frustrating and i'm not blaming the Ref for today's defeat as he'd no bearing on the result whatsoever.
Define non contact? You can't push a player you can't pull a jersey you can't charge a player you can't play with a closed fist, head or over the neck tackles are finished thankfully, no trips or deliberate pull downs allowed other than that it's still same as before
Armagh's tackling was rubbish today. It jumped in form between over-aggressiveness, flailing and mis-timing. It's pretty much how you expect forwards to tackle, and Armagh are a team of forwards.
It means every other tackle results in a free. As a supporter it drives you mad, and it's the most natural thing of all to feel it's imbalanced and to blame the referee who keeps blowing that f**king whistle. Problem is it's not the referee's fault, no matter how much you want it to be. Natural defenders adapt their physicality to the the disposition of the ref. Natural forwards don't have have that control.
——
There's a remarkable similarity between this Armagh crop, and Down during the Paddy O'Rourke times. The players are committed to the man in charge. There's a generational talent at 14, surrounded by high quality but inconsistent forwards. There's stopgaps at midfield. There's forwards playing defence. There's defenders who just aren't county standard. Which means they're capable of winning games at a league intensity against pretty much anyone. But the holes everyone knows exist, they become all too obvious when the notch is turned.
Much talk about Armagh being poor tacklers and blaming Geezer. Now undoubtedly he could help improve the situation but I have been saying for years that the way football is refereed in the county doesn't help. Many of the frees given today wouldn't be given at an under 15 game in Armagh. In the minor match last night I think Armagh got 6 cards to Derry's 0 and a high proportion of the frees given were against Armagh. It seems to be a trend.
Quote from: Throw ball on April 24, 2022, 11:30:13 PM
Much talk about Armagh being poor tacklers and blaming Geezer. Now undoubtedly he could help improve the situation but I have been saying for years that the way football is refereed in the county doesn't help. Many of the frees given today wouldn't be given at an under 15 game in Armagh. In the minor match last night I think Armagh got 6 cards to Derry's 0 and a high proportion of the frees given were against Armagh. It seems to be a trend.
Bit of a trend here is right. Armagh get involved in meelees and give away more frees due illegal or aggressive tackles yet somehow they are apparently always innocent.. Less gym work and more football coaching would go along way.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 24, 2022, 11:08:19 PM
Define non contact? You can't push a player you can't pull a jersey you can't charge a player you can't play with a closed fist, head or over the neck tackles are finished thankfully, no trips or deliberate pull downs allowed other than that it's still same as before
You can't touch a player nowadays unless it's a clean tackle first time with contact on the ball and nowhere else and isn't from behind. You can't put your non-tackling hand anywhere on the player or you'll get blown up.
Pathetic performance from Armagh yesterday, the time has surely arrived where McGeeney has got to go. The tactics in the first half were shocking. Not pushing up on the kickout enabled Donegal to build from the back and into scoring position within 2 or 3 passes. I don't understand how Hall is even on the panel never mind starting, offers absolutely nothing. Donegal must have kicked 6 wides in the first half alone and dropped at least 3 short. It's the performance again and again in the Ulster championship that annoys me not the fact that we lost. We seem complete enept to win a substantial meaningful game. The ref was definitely not the reason we lost but the consistency just wasn't there imo. I thought Armagh had to do alot more to win a free. 7 fouls given away by Donegal all game doesn't seem to make sense to me. I don't think a run to the quarters through the back door should save geezers job but it probably will. Anyway congrats to Donegal much better team on the day.
Quote from: general_lee on April 25, 2022, 07:53:32 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 24, 2022, 11:08:19 PM
Define non contact? You can't push a player you can't pull a jersey you can't charge a player you can't play with a closed fist, head or over the neck tackles are finished thankfully, no trips or deliberate pull downs allowed other than that it's still same as before
You can't touch a player nowadays unless it's a clean tackle first time with contact on the ball and nowhere else and isn't from behind. You can't put your non-tackling hand anywhere on the player or you'll get blown up.
Half a dozen times every game 3/4 players are slapping at a man's shoulders, arms, everywhere but the ball and the player with the ball gets called for over carrying
Quote from: JoG2 on April 25, 2022, 08:43:24 AM
Quote from: general_lee on April 25, 2022, 07:53:32 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 24, 2022, 11:08:19 PM
Define non contact? You can't push a player you can't pull a jersey you can't charge a player you can't play with a closed fist, head or over the neck tackles are finished thankfully, no trips or deliberate pull downs allowed other than that it's still same as before
You can't touch a player nowadays unless it's a clean tackle first time with contact on the ball and nowhere else and isn't from behind. You can't put your non-tackling hand anywhere on the player or you'll get blown up.
Half a dozen times every game 3/4 players are slapping at a man's shoulders, arms, everywhere but the ball and the player with the ball gets called for over carrying
Depends. If it's a defender coming out he'll get a free out. If it's a forward more often than not he'll get blown for over-carrying, as does any attacking player who hesitates, regardless of whether they've actually over carried or not.
Quote from: illdecide on April 24, 2022, 11:03:12 PM
Never seen as many Tyrone ones so happy and leaving their two bit worth and gloating, frig sake wise up men.
As for the game...best team won, was very surprised how easy Donegal won. I'm not sure if Donegal were better than i thought or was Armagh worse than i thought...Maybe a bit of both. Armagh were cleaned out in Midfield and if truth be told we've been poor in this area for a long time and are crying out for a few good midfielders. Someone pointed out earlier post how J Hall keeps his place in starting 15 and how Ben Crealey etc in midfield starts. Stefan Campbell is one of the best forwards around yet is an impact sub...WTF. He's deadly around the edge of the square so play him there and then bring out the field at times if he hasn't the legs to get up and down the pitch for 70 mins (I'm assuming that's why he's not starting).
Anyway in saying all that Donegal were good and fully deserved their win and good luck to them v Cavan. Donegal have some great footballers with pace who are hard to stop. As for Armagh disallowed goal...In replays etc it could have stood but 9 outta 10 Refs would blow for a free out.
On the Referee today and Ref's in general...Is it me or is our games now virtually contact free, it's so frustrating watch any game now and all players have to do is lift their legs up and fall and it's a certain free out...Very frustrating and i'm not blaming the Ref for today's defeat as he'd no bearing on the result whatsoever.
On the goal, it was 100% a free out. You cannot pull the ball out of someones grasp No 1 and then No 2 it looked like he threw it into the goal. I cannot believe that people think that should be a goal, its not rugby we are playing.
Your comment on Armaghs midfield is interesting. Donegal simply repeated the trick they did in Breffni in their last championship meeting. What did your tactical genius of a manager do to prepare you for this quite predictable tactic from Donegal? Not a lot I would say. I cant believe ye presevere with him. A great player he was but a manager he is an abject failure and thats is quite clear to see.
Oisin McConville thought it was a goal going by his rant after the game on BBC. Maybe a proper review would been handy for him before he went off on one about the referee.
Just to clear up a few points...I did say 9 outta 10 refs will give a free out and that's what happened, not complaining about it at all.
As for KMcG keeping his job...not my decision but what i will say is bar a couple of players on starting 15 we don't have any other talent in the County. As for tactics you're prob correct, he should have had a better game plan but in general terms the best team with best players usually win and that's what happened yesterday.
The tackling etc...my previous post was not based on Armagh game yesterday, it was a general observation of our games in general where a player lifts his legs and falls and gets a free straight away.
Quote from: Itchy on April 25, 2022, 09:40:15 AM
Quote from: illdecide on April 24, 2022, 11:03:12 PM
Never seen as many Tyrone ones so happy and leaving their two bit worth and gloating, frig sake wise up men.
As for the game...best team won, was very surprised how easy Donegal won. I'm not sure if Donegal were better than i thought or was Armagh worse than i thought...Maybe a bit of both. Armagh were cleaned out in Midfield and if truth be told we've been poor in this area for a long time and are crying out for a few good midfielders. Someone pointed out earlier post how J Hall keeps his place in starting 15 and how Ben Crealey etc in midfield starts. Stefan Campbell is one of the best forwards around yet is an impact sub...WTF. He's deadly around the edge of the square so play him there and then bring out the field at times if he hasn't the legs to get up and down the pitch for 70 mins (I'm assuming that's why he's not starting).
Anyway in saying all that Donegal were good and fully deserved their win and good luck to them v Cavan. Donegal have some great footballers with pace who are hard to stop. As for Armagh disallowed goal...In replays etc it could have stood but 9 outta 10 Refs would blow for a free out.
On the Referee today and Ref's in general...Is it me or is our games now virtually contact free, it's so frustrating watch any game now and all players have to do is lift their legs up and fall and it's a certain free out...Very frustrating and i'm not blaming the Ref for today's defeat as he'd no bearing on the result whatsoever.
On the goal, it was 100% a free out. You cannot pull the ball out of someones grasp No 1 and then No 2 it looked like he threw it into the goal. I cannot believe that people think that should be a goal, its not rugby we are playing.
Your comment on Armaghs midfield is interesting. Donegal simply repeated the trick they did in Breffni in their last championship meeting. What did your tactical genius of a manager do to prepare you for this quite predictable tactic from Donegal? Not a lot I would say. I cant believe ye presevere with him. A great player he was but a manager he is an abject failure and thats is quite clear to see.
Ahh I wouldn't compare the last championship game and yesterday. Donegal were genuine All Ireland contenders when they last played Championship in Breffini. On the face of it, it's hard not to argue Armagh are still miles behind Donegal after yesterday, it was a comprehensive win for Donegal.
It'll take McGeeney and Armagh time to review what happened, but a lot of it was down to Ballybofey. It's a seriously tough ground to visit, Donegal play it so well and it's easy to see why they have their record there. The problem for Donegal is, they can't play every match there and to achieve what they want, will have to produce that type of performance in bigger, more expansive pitches.
McGeeney will rightly be under pressure, but he has built a good squad there, and many counties would love to be a Division 1 team. Yesterday was tough but I still see them playing in an All Ireland Quarter Final later this year.
Quote from: omagh_gael on April 24, 2022, 04:30:21 PM
Armagh fans got some dose of reality today. Athletic grounds in February was like Croke Park in September when they beat Tyrone such was the celebrations.
McGeeney surely has to go unless Armagh reach the AI semis?
Some Armagh fans maybe, the majority of us know there is not enough quality there at the moment. That's not geezer's fault he has retained Div 1 status and that's a plus if they are going to get to the next level. Still way of a tilt at Sam.
Keep it short and sweet. Totally deflated, out big names didnt show up, Donegal got the tactical battle right, we didn't. Best of luck to them in the next round. Hopefully we can regroup and go on a good run.
Having watched the penalty incident again on TV last night it is very hard to see what the foul was for. Even if there had been VAR in place it would still had been very difficult to make a conclusive decision either way, so it looked like the referee simply copped out and blew for a foul to save any controversy. It was a huge momentum swinger as once Donegal had weathered the initial storm after half time they controlled the rest of the game.
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....
Armagh believed their own hype. Found out. Any advantage they had in the league with fitness was totally wiped out. Difficult to see them making any impact in the championship. Many Armagh fans very quiet last night having had plenty to say just a few months ago.
Donegal got all the tactical battles right. But they need to be careful. They can't read to much into beating Armagh. Like Tyrone proved last year you need to keep getting better in every game.
Quote from: JoG2 on April 25, 2022, 10:23:39 AM
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....
Don't think that would have affected the camp all that much in fairness. Game was won and lost on kickouts. Fair play to you's, have had our number for a good few years now
Quote from: JoG2 on April 25, 2022, 10:23:39 AM
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....
Probably a bit of both, but in hindsight a lot of pundits underestimated the Ballybofey factor. I think Kerry will win the All Ireland, but would probably have an almighty fight to win a championship game in Ballybofey, so I wouldn't be too hard on an Armagh team still learning how to compete at the top of the game.
Quote from: JoG2 on April 25, 2022, 10:23:39 AM
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....
Only one of the suspended players started the match anyway so I don't think that had any impact. Donegal just were better than Armagh, nothing more nothing less. Any other county would have defended their players in the same manner, the fault is with the disciplinary system.
Also I'm not sure why Tyrone fans would appear to be so delighted with a Donegal win either. Surely if Armagh are as poor as they think we are, they would have preferred to have faced Armagh in a potential Ulster final rather than Donegal.
Quote from: Throw ball on April 24, 2022, 11:30:13 PM
Much talk about Armagh being poor tacklers and blaming Geezer. Now undoubtedly he could help improve the situation but I have been saying for years that the way football is refereed in the county doesn't help. Many of the frees given today wouldn't be given at an under 15 game in Armagh. In the minor match last night I think Armagh got 6 cards to Derry's 0 and a high proportion of the frees given were against Armagh. It seems to be a trend.
McGeeney has come out numerous times over the last decade with absolute guff on the tackle.
He's seems completely unable to grasp that the tackle has to be aimed at the ball as opposed to the man.
A better manager would have figured out years ago that his approach to the tackle was out of whack with the general consensus as to what is a legitimate tackle and changed things but McGeeney has just buried his head in the sand on this.
Quote from: twohands!!! on April 25, 2022, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Throw ball on April 24, 2022, 11:30:13 PM
Much talk about Armagh being poor tacklers and blaming Geezer. Now undoubtedly he could help improve the situation but I have been saying for years that the way football is refereed in the county doesn't help. Many of the frees given today wouldn't be given at an under 15 game in Armagh. In the minor match last night I think Armagh got 6 cards to Derry's 0 and a high proportion of the frees given were against Armagh. It seems to be a trend.
McGeeney has come out numerous times over the last decade with absolute guff on the tackle.
He's seems completely unable to grasp that the tackle has to be aimed at the ball as opposed to the man.
A better manager would have figured out years ago that his approach to the tackle was out of whack with the general consensus as to what is a legitimate tackle and changed things but McGeeney has just buried his head in the sand on this.
The No. 3 was doing some punching at the ribs and sides of the Donegal lad when he was coming out.
Full fist punches - could have been a red.
Nowhere near the ball and not even attempting to flick the ball away.
Quote from: twohands!!! on April 25, 2022, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Throw ball on April 24, 2022, 11:30:13 PM
Much talk about Armagh being poor tacklers and blaming Geezer. Now undoubtedly he could help improve the situation but I have been saying for years that the way football is refereed in the county doesn't help. Many of the frees given today wouldn't be given at an under 15 game in Armagh. In the minor match last night I think Armagh got 6 cards to Derry's 0 and a high proportion of the frees given were against Armagh. It seems to be a trend.
McGeeney has come out numerous times over the last decade with absolute guff on the tackle.
He's seems completely unable to grasp that the tackle has to be aimed at the ball as opposed to the man.
A better manager would have figured out years ago that his approach to the tackle was out of whack with the general consensus as to what is a legitimate tackle and changed things but McGeeney has just buried his head in the sand on this.
Armagh had plenty of problems yesterday but tackling was certainly not near the top of the list so I'm surprised to see this being brought up again. Players like Morgan and McCabe have been fouling machines in the past but have noticeably cut this out of their game this year. Much bigger issues were the kick out malfunction, midfield problems and the lack of a kicking game against a side who are masters of running football.
Quote from: Gael80 on April 25, 2022, 10:29:40 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on April 25, 2022, 10:23:39 AM
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....
Probably a bit of both, but in hindsight a lot of pundits underestimated the Ballybofey factor. I think Kerry will win the All Ireland, but would probably have an almighty fight to win a championship game in Ballybofey, so I wouldn't be too hard on an Armagh team still learning how to compete at the top of the game.
Armagh need to be hard on themselves after yesterday's showing. Big name players didn't show, management found to be technically wanting ... everyone knew Donegal would push up on the Armagh kickout and we couldn't handle it. Armagh not pushing up on the Donegal kickout in the first half was hard to believe. All in all, best team by a mile won on the day. Armagh v Mayo looks to be nailed on for the Qualifiers.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 25, 2022, 10:22:45 AM
Having watched the penalty incident again on TV last night it is very hard to see what the foul was for. Even if there had been VAR in place it would still had been very difficult to make a conclusive decision either way, so it looked like the referee simply copped out and blew for a foul to save any controversy. It was a huge momentum swinger as once Donegal had weathered the initial storm after half time they controlled the rest of the game.
I assume you mean the disallowed goal rather than penalty incident? The replay on the Sunday Game clearly show the keeper on his knees with the ball in his grasp. It was pulled out of his grasp. Its a clear free, i dont know what the confusion is unless you dont know the rules of the game.
Quote from: Itchy on April 25, 2022, 11:22:10 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 25, 2022, 10:22:45 AM
Having watched the penalty incident again on TV last night it is very hard to see what the foul was for. Even if there had been VAR in place it would still had been very difficult to make a conclusive decision either way, so it looked like the referee simply copped out and blew for a foul to save any controversy. It was a huge momentum swinger as once Donegal had weathered the initial storm after half time they controlled the rest of the game.
I assume you mean the disallowed goal rather than penalty incident? The replay on the Sunday Game clearly show the keeper on his knees with the ball in his grasp. It was pulled out of his grasp. Its a clear free, i dont know what the confusion is unless you dont know the rules of the game.
Yes, the disallowed goal. The problem was that it didn't clearly show anything. Even Sean Cavanagh said that it was inconclusive while Oisin McConville and Peter Canavan both said it should have stood on BBC with Martin McHugh. So definitely not clear cut.
Quote from: Gael80 on April 25, 2022, 11:45:12 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 25, 2022, 11:16:25 AM
Quote from: Gael80 on April 25, 2022, 10:29:40 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on April 25, 2022, 10:23:39 AM
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....
Probably a bit of both, but in hindsight a lot of pundits underestimated the Ballybofey factor. I think Kerry will win the All Ireland, but would probably have an almighty fight to win a championship game in Ballybofey, so I wouldn't be too hard on an Armagh team still learning how to compete at the top of the game.
Armagh need to be hard on themselves after yesterday's showing. Big name players didn't show, management found to be technically wanting ... everyone knew Donegal would push up on the Armagh kickout and we couldn't handle it. Armagh not pushing up on the Donegal kickout in the first half was hard to believe. All in all, best team by a mile won on the day. Armagh v Mayo looks to be nailed on for the Qualifiers.
To be fair these are amateur players giving a huge committment to represent their county, I don't think any of them, should be hard on themselves. It is a game of football that went wrong, there is a lot to learn if they want to be successful, but I'm sure they know that themselves.
My point was yes tactically they got it wrong, but Donegal play Ballybofey very well and the small tight pitch suited their tactics. I'm sure Armagh are disappointed but they didn't lose to a Division 4 team, they came up against a home team with an unbelievable record in Ballybofey.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 25, 2022, 11:01:11 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on April 25, 2022, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Throw ball on April 24, 2022, 11:30:13 PM
Much talk about Armagh being poor tacklers and blaming Geezer. Now undoubtedly he could help improve the situation but I have been saying for years that the way football is refereed in the county doesn't help. Many of the frees given today wouldn't be given at an under 15 game in Armagh. In the minor match last night I think Armagh got 6 cards to Derry's 0 and a high proportion of the frees given were against Armagh. It seems to be a trend.
McGeeney has come out numerous times over the last decade with absolute guff on the tackle.
He's seems completely unable to grasp that the tackle has to be aimed at the ball as opposed to the man.
A better manager would have figured out years ago that his approach to the tackle was out of whack with the general consensus as to what is a legitimate tackle and changed things but McGeeney has just buried his head in the sand on this.
Armagh had plenty of problems yesterday but tackling was certainly not near the top of the list so I'm surprised to see this being brought up again. Players like Morgan and McCabe have been fouling machines in the past but have noticeably cut this out of their game this year. Much bigger issues were the kick out malfunction, midfield problems and the lack of a kicking game against a side who are masters of running football.
Based on the link below the free count was Armagh 19 frees conceded Donegal 5 frees conceded.
https://twitter.com/gaa_statsman/status/1518242911556673536/photo/1
I was surprised a bit by those numbers when I saw them. I knew Armagh had been fouling more but I didn't think Armagh had been that bad and I didn't think that Donegal had been that good.
Armagh might be able to quibble on a few of the frees but most people would have said the ref got the vast majority of his calls correct.
If people don't think that allowing the opposition 14 more frees isn't handing them a serious advantage in terms of winning a game, I don't know where to begin.
Other relevant stats
Donegal won 19 out of 23 of their own kickouts.
Armagh won 15 out of 25 of their own kickouts.
Overal Donegal won 29 kickouts to Armagh's 19
Donegal were 17 from 31 in overall shots scored 54%
From play 12 from 24 50%
From deadballs 5 from 7
Armagh were 12 from 28
From play 9 from 23 39%
From deadballs 3 from 5
The problem for us is that whether it's Div 1 or Div 3 teams we play in the Ulster championship we've found it very hard to get a win during Kieran's time and before. It's not just the top sides in Ulster we've struggled to beat. The truth is we haven't been blessed with great talent coming through from underage so the management have to get the team playing at a level more than the sum of their parts. Maybe it's not just in this bunch but the most disappointing thing for me during Kieran's time is the ease with which we've been beaten over the years. We should be at least competitive.
Quote from: Gael80 on April 25, 2022, 10:29:40 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on April 25, 2022, 10:23:39 AM
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....
Probably a bit of both, but in hindsight a lot of pundits underestimated the Ballybofey factor. I think Kerry will win the All Ireland, but would probably have an almighty fight to win a championship game in Ballybofey, so I wouldn't be too hard on an Armagh team still learning how to compete at the top of the game.
Think people are going a bit over the top with the Ballybofey thing.
Donegal's unbeaten run there has coincided with them having a top six team most of the time, with a backbone of the likes of Murphy, Lacey, Neil McGee, Neil Gallagher etc.
We've been mostly amongst the top two in Ulster and most of the teams we've played in champsionship in Ballybofey during that period have been from Ulster.
We've still managed to lose to Tyrone in 2018 in the Super 8s, and we never faced a Kerry or Dublin or, our nemesis, Mayo, in Ballybofey.
Murphy will be gone in a few years. While we'll always be hard to beat there (what Division 1 team is easy to beat in their home ground, Galway against Mayo excepted?!), I don't think the run that started again in 2019 will last as long as the previous one. Especially if we fade back into the Ulster pack for a few years.
Quote from: J70 on April 24, 2022, 08:39:15 PM
Well that was a heartening performance after a so-so league. Thoroughly deserved win for our boys on the day. Completely won the midfield battle, even if I was a bit worried at half time with all those poor misses (in fairness the conditions must have been a big factor with Armagh's similar misses in the second). Great games from Murphy, McGee, Shane O'Donnell, Mogan, McHugh, Ban etc.
Will need to bring that intensity and competitiveness to the Cavan game. They ate us alive in that final two years ago. At least we'll be going in prepared this time.
Is there a more riveting sight in GAA than seeing a player like Ban Gallagher turn on the afterburners like Jack McCaffrey and Michael Donnellan used to do?
On the disallowed goal, are you allowed to strip the ball out of the keeper's hands?
Totally agree, Ban Gallagher absolutely brilliant footballer. Power, pace and made serious incisions straight through the middle of Armagh yesterday.
Quote from: illdecide on April 25, 2022, 09:50:54 AM
Just to clear up a few points...I did say 9 outta 10 refs will give a free out and that's what happened, not complaining about it at all.
As for KMcG keeping his job...not my decision but what i will say is bar a couple of players on starting 15 we don't have any other talent in the County. As for tactics you're prob correct, he should have had a better game plan but in general terms the best team with best players usually win and that's what happened yesterday.
The tackling etc...my previous post was not based on Armagh game yesterday, it was a general observation of our games in general where a player lifts his legs and falls and gets a free straight away.
Sorry, but there is players equally as good if not better in the county that are not involved and they are bigger physically. If two players have the exact same talent set but one is 5' 2 and the other is 6' which of these players should you persevere with? It seems to me Kieran has persevered with the wrong type of players, has tried to make defenders out of forwards and doesn't want any players on that can think for themselves ie Robots.
There is a serious problem with the coaching in our county across all age grades and has been for a number of years.
Quote from: keeperlit on April 25, 2022, 12:46:04 PM
Quote from: illdecide on April 25, 2022, 09:50:54 AM
Just to clear up a few points...I did say 9 outta 10 refs will give a free out and that's what happened, not complaining about it at all.
As for KMcG keeping his job...not my decision but what i will say is bar a couple of players on starting 15 we don't have any other talent in the County. As for tactics you're prob correct, he should have had a better game plan but in general terms the best team with best players usually win and that's what happened yesterday.
The tackling etc...my previous post was not based on Armagh game yesterday, it was a general observation of our games in general where a player lifts his legs and falls and gets a free straight away.
Sorry, but there is players equally as good if not better in the county that are not involved and they are bigger physically. If two players have the exact same talent set but one is 5' 2 and the other is 6' which of these players should you persevere with? It seems to me Kieran has persevered with the wrong type of players, has tried to make defenders out of forwards and doesn't want any players on that can think for themselves ie Robots.
There is a serious problem with the coaching in our county across all age grades and has been for a number of years.
Please name them? Any idea why they aren't involved?
Quote from: keeperlit on April 25, 2022, 12:46:04 PM
Quote from: illdecide on April 25, 2022, 09:50:54 AM
Just to clear up a few points...I did say 9 outta 10 refs will give a free out and that's what happened, not complaining about it at all.
As for KMcG keeping his job...not my decision but what i will say is bar a couple of players on starting 15 we don't have any other talent in the County. As for tactics you're prob correct, he should have had a better game plan but in general terms the best team with best players usually win and that's what happened yesterday.
The tackling etc...my previous post was not based on Armagh game yesterday, it was a general observation of our games in general where a player lifts his legs and falls and gets a free straight away.
Sorry, but there is players equally as good if not better in the county that are not involved and they are bigger physically. If two players have the exact same talent set but one is 5' 2 and the other is 6' which of these players should you persevere with? It seems to me Kieran has persevered with the wrong type of players, has tried to make defenders out of forwards and doesn't want any players on that can think for themselves ie Robots.
There is a serious problem with the coaching in our county across all age grades and has been for a number of years.
I agree with you on the latter point in terms of good underage players coming through the system. I think it must be over a decade since Armagh reached a provincial final at either U17/18/20/21 level which is a shocking record. Also whilst the club championship is a lot more competitive it is probably only because the standard has levelled out following Crossmaglens dominance. So there is most certainly not a production line of talented players coming through.
McGeeney has had 8 years which is a long time in any top job but we also need to be careful what we wish for. You only have to look at the mess that Down football have found themselves in at senior level and the problems they have in convincing players to commit. Bar Jamie Clarke who is probably finished with gaelic football now anyway and possibly Heffron from Clann Eireann there aren't many others within the county that jump out as being county level. That's not to say that there aren't some unhidden talents that are worthy of a chance.
There aren't any club footballers in Armagh who could come in and significantly improve the county team. Maybe a few panel members could be swapped out, but that's the same in every county.
This is the thing with McGeeney.
He has always been weak on the line, right back to his time with Kildare. Some of the stuff Armagh do on the pitch is just daft. They make a lot of very similar mistakes game after game, year after year. Problems with simple fixes are frequently left fester. Much of it is very self defeating, and so is particularly painful for supporters to endure.
But McGeeney also has the complete loyalty of his players. Armagh pretty much get the best in the county into an orange jersey, something that stymies most counties outside of those with a shot at Sam. Many of these players do make marked improvements with the longer they spend under his tutelage - he seems to be able to mould decent county level players out of men that were not expected to reach that standard. And it can't be forgotten that Armagh have been woeful at underage level for over a decade now. The club scene is weak too. There are systemic problems with player development in the county. It is against this backdrop that the manager is trying to succeed.
Maybe someone else comes in and tidies things up and the current bunch push on, but for me it's just as likely that the whole show would fall into a heap.
Quote from: J70 on April 25, 2022, 12:26:36 PM
Quote from: Gael80 on April 25, 2022, 10:29:40 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on April 25, 2022, 10:23:39 AM
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....
Probably a bit of both, but in hindsight a lot of pundits underestimated the Ballybofey factor. I think Kerry will win the All Ireland, but would probably have an almighty fight to win a championship game in Ballybofey, so I wouldn't be too hard on an Armagh team still learning how to compete at the top of the game.
Think people are going a bit over the top with the Ballybofey thing.
Donegal's unbeaten run there has coincided with them having a top six team most of the time, with a backbone of the likes of Murphy, Lacey, Neil McGee, Neil Gallagher etc.
We've been mostly amongst the top two in Ulster and most of the teams we've played in champsionship in Ballybofey during that period have been from Ulster.
We've still managed to lose to Tyrone in 2018 in the Super 8s, and we never faced a Kerry or Dublin or, our nemesis, Mayo, in Ballybofey.
Murphy will be gone in a few years. While we'll always be hard to beat there (what Division 1 team is easy to beat in their home ground, Galway against Mayo excepted?!), I don't think the run that started again in 2019 will last as long as the previous one. Especially if we fade back into the Ulster pack for a few years.
Good points, but I don't think we'll see that type of Donegal performance outside of Ballybofey, and that's where the problem will ultimately be in terms of Donegal achieving their aims - Ulster or All Ireland title.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 25, 2022, 11:45:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on April 25, 2022, 11:22:10 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 25, 2022, 10:22:45 AM
Having watched the penalty incident again on TV last night it is very hard to see what the foul was for. Even if there had been VAR in place it would still had been very difficult to make a conclusive decision either way, so it looked like the referee simply copped out and blew for a foul to save any controversy. It was a huge momentum swinger as once Donegal had weathered the initial storm after half time they controlled the rest of the game.
I assume you mean the disallowed goal rather than penalty incident? The replay on the Sunday Game clearly show the keeper on his knees with the ball in his grasp. It was pulled out of his grasp. Its a clear free, i dont know what the confusion is unless you dont know the rules of the game.
Yes, the disallowed goal. The problem was that it didn't clearly show anything. Even Sean Cavanagh said that it was inconclusive while Oisin McConville and Peter Canavan both said it should have stood on BBC with Martin McHugh. So definitely not clear cut.
I had to laugh at Oisin complaining about the fitness of the referees, the ref was standing on the D where did he want him to be? up in the small square? Oisin was standing 100 meters away but could see clearly that the goal should have stood! amazing eyesight..
Ball ripped out of hands whistle went I think at that point, I would be 50/50 on the throw ball part as the ball might not have been in 'proper' possession so 'palming' it in is ok, if it was deemed not in full possession
Quote from: Ed Ricketts on April 25, 2022, 01:26:48 PM
There aren't any club footballers in Armagh who could come in and significantly improve the county team. Maybe a few panel members could be swapped out, but that's the same in every county.
This is the thing with McGeeney.
He has always been weak on the line, right back to his time with Kildare. Some of the stuff Armagh do on the pitch is just daft. They make a lot of very similar mistakes game after game, year after year. Problems with simple fixes are frequently left fester. Much of it is very self defeating, and so is particularly painful for supporters to endure.
But McGeeney also has the complete loyalty of his players. Armagh pretty much get the best in the county into an orange jersey, something that stymies most counties outside of those with a shot at Sam. Many of these players do make marked improvements with the longer they spend under his tutelage - he seems to be able to mould decent county level players out of men that were not expected to reach that standard. And it can't be forgotten that Armagh have been woeful at underage level for over a decade now. The club scene is weak too. There are systemic problems with player development in the county. It is against this backdrop that the manager is trying to succeed.
Maybe someone else comes in and tidies things up and the current bunch push on, but for me it's just as likely that the whole show would fall into a heap.
Some great points made, particularly around the wider issue of what is available in terms of a player pool and the standard of our underage. I personally think football in Armagh is terrible at the moment and that is reflected in the performances of our Minors, Under 20s and teams in the Ulster Club series. It's not too wide of the mark to say that Armagh are currently boxing way above their weight, given what we have.
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on April 25, 2022, 02:00:17 PM
Quote from: Ed Ricketts on April 25, 2022, 01:26:48 PM
There aren't any club footballers in Armagh who could come in and significantly improve the county team. Maybe a few panel members could be swapped out, but that's the same in every county.
This is the thing with McGeeney.
He has always been weak on the line, right back to his time with Kildare. Some of the stuff Armagh do on the pitch is just daft. They make a lot of very similar mistakes game after game, year after year. Problems with simple fixes are frequently left fester. Much of it is very self defeating, and so is particularly painful for supporters to endure.
But McGeeney also has the complete loyalty of his players. Armagh pretty much get the best in the county into an orange jersey, something that stymies most counties outside of those with a shot at Sam. Many of these players do make marked improvements with the longer they spend under his tutelage - he seems to be able to mould decent county level players out of men that were not expected to reach that standard. And it can't be forgotten that Armagh have been woeful at underage level for over a decade now. The club scene is weak too. There are systemic problems with player development in the county. It is against this backdrop that the manager is trying to succeed.
Maybe someone else comes in and tidies things up and the current bunch push on, but for me it's just as likely that the whole show would fall into a heap.
Some great points made, particularly around the wider issue of what is available in terms of a player pool and the standard of our underage. I personally think football in Armagh is terrible at the moment and that is reflected in the performances of our Minors, Under 20s and teams in the Ulster Club series. It's not too wide of the mark to say that Armagh are currently boxing way above their weight, given what we have.
Yes, I would agree with all of this. There is certainly an argument to be had that we are actually over achieving given the standard of players coming through.
Quote from: Gael80 on April 25, 2022, 01:38:31 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 25, 2022, 12:26:36 PM
Quote from: Gael80 on April 25, 2022, 10:29:40 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on April 25, 2022, 10:23:39 AM
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....
Probably a bit of both, but in hindsight a lot of pundits underestimated the Ballybofey factor. I think Kerry will win the All Ireland, but would probably have an almighty fight to win a championship game in Ballybofey, so I wouldn't be too hard on an Armagh team still learning how to compete at the top of the game.
Think people are going a bit over the top with the Ballybofey thing.
Donegal's unbeaten run there has coincided with them having a top six team most of the time, with a backbone of the likes of Murphy, Lacey, Neil McGee, Neil Gallagher etc.
We've been mostly amongst the top two in Ulster and most of the teams we've played in champsionship in Ballybofey during that period have been from Ulster.
We've still managed to lose to Tyrone in 2018 in the Super 8s, and we never faced a Kerry or Dublin or, our nemesis, Mayo, in Ballybofey.
Murphy will be gone in a few years. While we'll always be hard to beat there (what Division 1 team is easy to beat in their home ground, Galway against Mayo excepted?!), I don't think the run that started again in 2019 will last as long as the previous one. Especially if we fade back into the Ulster pack for a few years.
Good points, but I don't think we'll see that type of Donegal performance outside of Ballybofey, and that's where the problem will ultimately be in terms of Donegal achieving their aims - Ulster or All Ireland title.
I'd defer back to my point that its probably more about the relative standards of the teams than the venue. We've won plenty of games in Clones and Croke Park over the past decade or so. Tyrone beat us in Ballybofey in 2018 because of the options they were able to bring in off their bench.
Aside from Cavan ambushing us in that Ulster final, the only Ulster teams to beat us in championship since 2010 have been Tyrone and Monaghan, who've each also lost lost to us more than once, which is to be expected of teams of similar standards. The only non-Ulster teams to beat us have been Mayo and Dublin (several times each) and Galway and Kerry (once each). We haven't been losing to Meath or Roscommon or Cork or Kildare.
Based on what we saw, I think we would still have beaten Armagh in Clones or Crossmaglen yesterday. Might not have been so comprehensively, but we'd still probably have won.
If we lose to Cavan or after that, Tyrone (presumably) it will down to them being a better team on the day (or in general) than the particulars of the venue giving us or costing a couple of points. In my opinion, of course.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 25, 2022, 01:55:52 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 25, 2022, 11:45:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on April 25, 2022, 11:22:10 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 25, 2022, 10:22:45 AM
Having watched the penalty incident again on TV last night it is very hard to see what the foul was for. Even if there had been VAR in place it would still had been very difficult to make a conclusive decision either way, so it looked like the referee simply copped out and blew for a foul to save any controversy. It was a huge momentum swinger as once Donegal had weathered the initial storm after half time they controlled the rest of the game.
I assume you mean the disallowed goal rather than penalty incident? The replay on the Sunday Game clearly show the keeper on his knees with the ball in his grasp. It was pulled out of his grasp. Its a clear free, i dont know what the confusion is unless you dont know the rules of the game.
Yes, the disallowed goal. The problem was that it didn't clearly show anything. Even Sean Cavanagh said that it was inconclusive while Oisin McConville and Peter Canavan both said it should have stood on BBC with Martin McHugh. So definitely not clear cut.
I had to laugh at Oisin complaining about the fitness of the referees, the ref was standing on the D where did he want him to be? up in the small square? Oisin was standing 100 meters away but could see clearly that the goal should have stood! amazing eyesight..
Ball ripped out of hands whistle went I think at that point, I would be 50/50 on the throw ball part as the ball might not have been in 'proper' possession so 'palming' it in is ok, if it was deemed not in full possession
Well it certainly wasn't a fitness issue as the ball was kicked in 75 metres directly after the throw in, so using the lack of fitness from referees is a red herring in this instance. It didn't surprise me that he gave a free out in real time as 9 times out of 10 the referee would err on the side of caution. However I still can't decide whether it was legal or illegal and I have watched it several times on replay. If it had been allowed I guess Donegal would be up in arms over it anyway but it is difficult to say if Patton had the ball firmly in his possession.
There was one free kick that he gave to Ryan McHugh in the second half where they scored a point off that nobody seemed to know what it was for, least of all McHugh himself. Otherwise I felt that Deegans performance was decent yesterday.
I take no pleasure in saying this but I thought the referee was harsh on Armagh yesterday.
Donegal seemed to win their frees much easier and any contentious calls went the way of Donegal. (ONeill & McHugh frees).
That aside, Donegal were the superior team all over the field.
Ban Gallagher was superb throughout & Murphy stood up in the second half when it really counted.
Ryan McHugh was given the freedom of the park throughout - has no one on the Armagh management team seen McHugh play before??
As for Armagh - the league position gave a false sense of belief. In cship terms they are 8th - 12th best team in Ireland. Nowhere near challenging.
How many Ulster cship games have ye won in the last 10 years?
I would not fear Donegal if we get them in the final - in fact I would be very confident we would beat them.
Hard to know what to make of that. First thing I will say, the game may have been lost in Ballybofey but the seeds of defeat were sown in Letterkenny. The last few weeks for us have been about suspensions, appeals, CCCC, who's in who's out. Donegal focused on the football. We should have gone through the motions against them in the League but for whatever reason we didn't. That was wrong and cost us and that's on the management.
Yesterday we struggled all over the field at different times and we were beaten by a much better team. It was a 7 point hammering. We can point to the goal that wasn't given and a few other things but the reality is Donegal were fitter, sharper, smarter and more clinical at crucial times. The game plan was absent and ability to readjust both on the line and on the field is not there. There are no leaders. People will say we are short of players etc etc and there's no dispute in that but a lack of a game plan has nothing to do with luck of players.
I think that maybe we got a false sense of where we were at because of a good start to the league. Let's put in perspective about the league results. We beat Tyrone who were still playing n their post AI win break as it were. They will be in an Ulster Final I'd say and will give the whole thing a run again. We beat Dublin and Kildare who were both relegated and we drew with Monaghan at a struggle who had a man sent off. Monaghan were also within a kick of relegation. We peaked at that point of the season and have tapered off since. The question needs to be asked why?
We may have lost players and have players coming back from injury but that's something every team has to deal with.
We were bullied in key areas, particularly the middle. We didn't stand up to it. Maybe we couldn't.
We now have the back door. A few good results and we could recalibrate but is that what is really needed? Personally I don't believe so. I don't believe we have progressed far enough over the last few years to warrant that but the reality is Div 1 survivable and a decent run in the Qualifiers will save the management their positions. A proper review needs to be done but I am not sure that there are people brave enough to do so.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 25, 2022, 02:19:40 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 25, 2022, 01:55:52 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 25, 2022, 11:45:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on April 25, 2022, 11:22:10 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 25, 2022, 10:22:45 AM
Having watched the penalty incident again on TV last night it is very hard to see what the foul was for. Even if there had been VAR in place it would still had been very difficult to make a conclusive decision either way, so it looked like the referee simply copped out and blew for a foul to save any controversy. It was a huge momentum swinger as once Donegal had weathered the initial storm after half time they controlled the rest of the game.
I assume you mean the disallowed goal rather than penalty incident? The replay on the Sunday Game clearly show the keeper on his knees with the ball in his grasp. It was pulled out of his grasp. Its a clear free, i dont know what the confusion is unless you dont know the rules of the game.
Yes, the disallowed goal. The problem was that it didn't clearly show anything. Even Sean Cavanagh said that it was inconclusive while Oisin McConville and Peter Canavan both said it should have stood on BBC with Martin McHugh. So definitely not clear cut.
I had to laugh at Oisin complaining about the fitness of the referees, the ref was standing on the D where did he want him to be? up in the small square? Oisin was standing 100 meters away but could see clearly that the goal should have stood! amazing eyesight..
Ball ripped out of hands whistle went I think at that point, I would be 50/50 on the throw ball part as the ball might not have been in 'proper' possession so 'palming' it in is ok, if it was deemed not in full possession
Well it certainly wasn't a fitness issue as the ball was kicked in 75 metres directly after the throw in, so using the lack of fitness from referees is a red herring in this instance. It didn't surprise me that he gave a free out in real time as 9 times out of 10 the referee would err on the side of caution. However I still can't decide whether it was legal or illegal and I have watched it several times on replay. If it had been allowed I guess Donegal would be up in arms over it anyway but it is difficult to say if Patton had the ball firmly in his possession.
There was one free kick that he gave to Ryan McHugh in the second half where they scored a point off that nobody seemed to know what it was for, least of all McHugh himself. Otherwise I felt that Deegans performance was decent yesterday.
I think the goalie had it in his grasp, not tightly and it was pulled out rather easy. Even so MR2 says that's a foul. It's just I don't see how the ref saw all that clearly, perhaps Maurice has xray eyes.
Quote from: J70 on April 25, 2022, 02:17:40 PM
Quote from: Gael80 on April 25, 2022, 01:38:31 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 25, 2022, 12:26:36 PM
Quote from: Gael80 on April 25, 2022, 10:29:40 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on April 25, 2022, 10:23:39 AM
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....
Probably a bit of both, but in hindsight a lot of pundits underestimated the Ballybofey factor. I think Kerry will win the All Ireland, but would probably have an almighty fight to win a championship game in Ballybofey, so I wouldn't be too hard on an Armagh team still learning how to compete at the top of the game.
Think people are going a bit over the top with the Ballybofey thing.
Donegal's unbeaten run there has coincided with them having a top six team most of the time, with a backbone of the likes of Murphy, Lacey, Neil McGee, Neil Gallagher etc.
We've been mostly amongst the top two in Ulster and most of the teams we've played in champsionship in Ballybofey during that period have been from Ulster.
We've still managed to lose to Tyrone in 2018 in the Super 8s, and we never faced a Kerry or Dublin or, our nemesis, Mayo, in Ballybofey.
Murphy will be gone in a few years. While we'll always be hard to beat there (what Division 1 team is easy to beat in their home ground, Galway against Mayo excepted?!), I don't think the run that started again in 2019 will last as long as the previous one. Especially if we fade back into the Ulster pack for a few years.
Good points, but I don't think we'll see that type of Donegal performance outside of Ballybofey, and that's where the problem will ultimately be in terms of Donegal achieving their aims - Ulster or All Ireland title.
I'd defer back to my point that its probably more about the relative standards of the teams than the venue. We've won plenty of games in Clones and Croke Park over the past decade or so. Tyrone beat us in Ballybofey in 2018 because of the options they were able to bring in off their bench.
Aside from Cavan ambushing us in that Ulster final, the only Ulster teams to beat us in championship since 2010 have been Tyrone and Monaghan, who've each also lost lost to us more than once, which is to be expected of teams of similar standards. The only non-Ulster teams to beat us have been Mayo and Dublin (several times each) and Galway and Kerry (once each). We haven't been losing to Meath or Roscommon or Cork or Kildare.
Based on what we saw, I think we would still have beaten Armagh in Clones or Crossmaglen yesterday. Might not have been so comprehensively, but we'd still probably have won.
If we lose to Cavan or after that, Tyrone (presumably) it will down to them being a better team on the day (or in general) than the particulars of the venue giving us or costing a couple of points. In my opinion, of course.
Ahh if we went back to 2010 then fair enough, Donegal from 2011 to 2015 were a serious team, that should of won another All Ireland at least. 2016 - 2019 they were still right up there, but where never going to beat Dublin, Mayo or Tyrone to an All Ireland.
I don't think the current Donegal team is anywhere near those standards but Ballybofey is a massive advantage to them, whatever happens there they look like All Ireland contenders at times.
Would Armagh compete with or beat Donegal if they got them in Clones or Croke Park later this summer? After yesterday it's hard to see it, but I do think the game would be a lot closer away from Ballybofey.
It's just my opinion and I don't mean it in a bad way but I would be surprised if this Donegal team won the Ulster title or made it through to an All Ireland semi final. I still think their slow build up/handpassing game gets exposed at bigger venues, they're also very physical around the middle areas of the field and can impose themselves on smaller fields such as Ballybofey.
Good luck against Cavan, it'll be a great game especially as Cavan have to win to stay in the senior championship.
Quote from: Main Street on April 25, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 25, 2022, 02:19:40 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 25, 2022, 01:55:52 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 25, 2022, 11:45:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on April 25, 2022, 11:22:10 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 25, 2022, 10:22:45 AM
Having watched the penalty incident again on TV last night it is very hard to see what the foul was for. Even if there had been VAR in place it would still had been very difficult to make a conclusive decision either way, so it looked like the referee simply copped out and blew for a foul to save any controversy. It was a huge momentum swinger as once Donegal had weathered the initial storm after half time they controlled the rest of the game.
I assume you mean the disallowed goal rather than penalty incident? The replay on the Sunday Game clearly show the keeper on his knees with the ball in his grasp. It was pulled out of his grasp. Its a clear free, i dont know what the confusion is unless you dont know the rules of the game.
Yes, the disallowed goal. The problem was that it didn't clearly show anything. Even Sean Cavanagh said that it was inconclusive while Oisin McConville and Peter Canavan both said it should have stood on BBC with Martin McHugh. So definitely not clear cut.
I had to laugh at Oisin complaining about the fitness of the referees, the ref was standing on the D where did he want him to be? up in the small square? Oisin was standing 100 meters away but could see clearly that the goal should have stood! amazing eyesight..
Ball ripped out of hands whistle went I think at that point, I would be 50/50 on the throw ball part as the ball might not have been in 'proper' possession so 'palming' it in is ok, if it was deemed not in full possession
Well it certainly wasn't a fitness issue as the ball was kicked in 75 metres directly after the throw in, so using the lack of fitness from referees is a red herring in this instance. It didn't surprise me that he gave a free out in real time as 9 times out of 10 the referee would err on the side of caution. However I still can't decide whether it was legal or illegal and I have watched it several times on replay. If it had been allowed I guess Donegal would be up in arms over it anyway but it is difficult to say if Patton had the ball firmly in his possession.
There was one free kick that he gave to Ryan McHugh in the second half where they scored a point off that nobody seemed to know what it was for, least of all McHugh himself. Otherwise I felt that Deegans performance was decent yesterday.
I think the goalie had it in his grasp, not tightly and it was pulled out rather easy. Even so MR2 says that's a foul. It's just I don't see how the ref saw all that clearly, perhaps Maurice has xray eyes.
I'm with you on that, I don't know how he seen it as well as we did on the slow mo, and I can't remember if he gave an indication of what the foul was for at the time, did he raise an arm, can't remember. It could be as someone else said he couldn't be bother with the hassle of a messy situation and just blew for something, been there and sometimes that's a get out..
Again though he was close enough, and depends on his angle looking in
Well Congrats to Donegal they were a better prepared Team than Armagh and certainly had a game plan. Armagh's decision to keep going backwards with the Ball to GK was just horrific to watch, thought going into the game if we had any chance of winning we needed to be even or ahead at half time. Then for Geezer to continue with same old and only make 1 change at half time was unbelievable. Ban Gallagher running right through the middle time and time again, no one near him and Geezer standing in front of us with his arms folded, still keeping his same favourites on. It was always going to take us to be on our best to get out of Ballybofey with a win, and we were just awful. Hopefully the Team can pick themselves up from yesterday for their next game.
Best of Luck to Donegal in the next round as i expect Cavan will be no walkover. Have to say we had a great wee day in Ballybofey, enjoyed the chat and craic with the locals and even time for craic with the great Brian McEniff, a complete gentleman who had great time for the Armagh folk around him yesterday.
What's this nonsense about MacCumhaill Park in Ballybofey being a small pitch? It's literally one of the biggest pitches in the country.
Quote from: greatpoint on April 25, 2022, 05:25:09 PM
What's this nonsense about MacCumhaill Park in Ballybofey being a small pitch? It's literally one of the biggest pitches in the country.
According to BBC coverage, the sidelines were moved in by 1m on each side, due to safety concerns !
Quote from: greatpoint on April 25, 2022, 05:25:09 PM
What's this nonsense about MacCumhaill Park in Ballybofey being a small pitch? It's literally one of the biggest pitches in the country.
It wasn't at the weekend as apparently the cute Donegal hoors narrowed it!. Unbelievably in my opinion Donegal are 1/5 to beat Cavan and Cavan 4-1. I think Cavan will win that game.
Here here it's a safety issue, donegal wouldn't be at that craic!! ::)
Quote from: delgany on April 25, 2022, 06:32:52 PM
Quote from: greatpoint on April 25, 2022, 05:25:09 PM
What's this nonsense about MacCumhaill Park in Ballybofey being a small pitch? It's literally one of the biggest pitches in the country.
According to BBC coverage, the sidelines were moved in by 1m on each side, due to safety concerns !
Which would give it exactly the same dimensions as Croke Park.
Not much between half way line and the 65s!
Typical Geezer. Flop well before the Ulster final.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGP9uz4s8hQ
Having now watched the game back I stand by my initial comments. Armagh we're very poor and Donegal we're very good and deserved to win comfortably. Deegan had a very poor game. I see no foul in the build up to the goal. The ball to me seems to bounce out of the keepers hands as much as it is taken out. It then seems to go in off the keeper.
The McHugh decision was soft as well. Whether that would have made a difference or not we will never know. But we do know though is that ultimately Donegal we're the far better side yesterday.
It's not the big decisions that annoyed me with Deegan's performance yesterday. It's the smaller things. A lot of this may be down to loss aversion as humans tend to put far more weight on the things that go against them rather than what goes for them but Deegan seemed to give Donegal their frees far more easily but also played advantage to Donegal far more. It seemed like similar tackles were not being refereed in similar ways.
I think what most drew my ire were four incidents. Two in each half. In the first half one of the Donegal midfielders was pushed out over the sideline. A free was correctly awarded. Before it was taken there was some pushing and shoving for the ball and the referee immediately indicated an advantage before Donegal even took the kick. I can't fathom what kind of advantage he thought he was playing. Shortly after there was a swarm tackle situation. As the whistle blew Rian O'Neill won the ball and played a quick pass. Now the whistle had gone but Deegan hadn't indicated which way the free had been awarded (and it wasn't obvious) and O'Neill had his back to him. Deegan moved the free up.
In the second half Deegan warned the Donegal keeper several times to hurry up then did nothing and let him take his time. Finally the incident that annoyed me most was when he awarded a hop ball following what I thought was a foul by an Armagh player. Now either it was a foul and was a free out or the defender fell on the ball and touched it on the ground and should have been in a free in. Before the hop ball was taken both teams made a substitution. Before the departing players left the field Deegan restarted the match. The sideline official ran on and told the Armagh sub to come off but didn't go after the Donegal sub. As a result Donegal had sixteen men on the field. They won the hop ball went up the pitch and won a free that Murphy ultimately scored. All with 16 men on the pitch.
Those little things can cumulatively be very frustrating for a supporter. They can impact the flow and momentum of a match.
For me Deegan had a poor game which thankfully didn't impact the result although I appreciate it's a very difficult job. I agree with Oisin that we should at least trial two referees at senior inter county level.
On the current Armagh squad I think it's as strong as it has been in 15 years. It may lack the top drawer player with the exception of O'Neill but conversely I think the average standard is better with maybe 22 or 23 players who are decent but not spectacular inter county footballers. I also think they are a young team and with the manager can improve.
I've also said I think they are closer to the top table than they have been since 2005 but I think a lot of that has been down to other teams coming back to them as much as it's been them catching up.
Armagh stayed the night in Jacksons- right in the middle in Ballybofey.
Would it not have been wiser to stay somewhere a few miles outside the town- less interactions with supporters staying for the match hyping them up and asking for photos etc?
Was in the lobby before the match and it was strange to see i thought
David, excellent assessment.
Quote from: seanaglis on April 25, 2022, 08:53:58 PM
Armagh stayed the night in Jacksons- right in the middle in Ballybofey.
Would it not have been wiser to stay somewhere a few miles outside the town- less interactions with supporters staying for the match hyping them up and asking for photos etc?
Was in the lobby before the match and it was strange to see i thought
It's an unnecessary expenditure full stop. It's what, maybe just over an hour from Armagh City to Ballybofey. Americans would call them neighbouring towns.
David I think you're suffering a little there from trying to prove the hypothesis by any means necessary. Career defenders give away fewer fouls than converted defenders, largely because since they were nippers they've been learning week-in, week-out where the fine line lies between physical play and a foul, and also can read referees better from the early exchanges. Armagh had too many players on Sunday who aren't experienced enough at defending to judge that line as well.
Re Rian's disallowed goal. I saw it as charging into the keeper myself. Between that, the general acceptance that smashing a keeper in the small square isn't a done thing, the general confusion and the thrown ball, it's a free 99 times out of 100 with 99 referees out of 100. The exception being when a brave or biased umpire makes a name for himself.
David dry your eyes
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2022, 08:36:41 PM
Having now watched the game back I stand by my initial comments. Armagh we're very poor and Donegal we're very good and deserved to win comfortably. Deegan had a very poor game. I see no foul in the build up to the goal. The ball to me seems to bounce out of the keepers hands as much as it is taken out. It then seems to go in off the keeper.
The McHugh decision was soft as well. Whether that would have made a difference or not we will never know. But we do know though is that ultimately Donegal we're the far better side yesterday.
It's not the big decisions that annoyed me with Deegan's performance yesterday. It's the smaller things. A lot of this may be down to loss aversion as humans tend to put far more weight on the things that go against them rather than what goes for them but Deegan seemed to give Donegal their frees far more easily but also played advantage to Donegal far more. It seemed like similar tackles were not being refereed in similar ways.
I think what most drew my ire were four incidents. Two in each half. In the first half one of the Donegal midfielders was pushed out over the sideline. A free was correctly awarded. Before it was taken there was some pushing and shoving for the ball and the referee immediately indicated an advantage before Donegal even took the kick. I can't fathom what kind of advantage he thought he was playing. Shortly after there was a swarm tackle situation. As the whistle blew Rian O'Neill won the ball and played a quick pass. Now the whistle had gone but Deegan hadn't indicated which way the free had been awarded (and it wasn't obvious) and O'Neill had his back to him. Deegan moved the free up.
In the second half Deegan warned the Donegal keeper several times to hurry up then did nothing and let him take his time. Finally the incident that annoyed me most was when he awarded a hop ball following what I thought was a foul by an Armagh player. Now either it was a foul and was a free out or the defender fell on the ball and touched it on the ground and should have been in a free in. Before the hop ball was taken both teams made a substitution. Before the departing players left the field Deegan restarted the match. The sideline official ran on and told the Armagh sub to come off but didn't go after the Donegal sub. As a result Donegal had sixteen men on the field. They won the hop ball went up the pitch and won a free that Murphy ultimately scored. All with 16 men on the pitch.
Those little things can cumulatively be very frustrating for a supporter. They can impact the flow and momentum of a match.
For me Deegan had a poor game which thankfully didn't impact the result although I appreciate it's a very difficult job. I agree with Oisin that we should at least trial two referees at senior inter county level.
On the current Armagh squad I think it's as strong as it has been in 15 years. It may lack the top drawer player with the exception of O'Neill but conversely I think the average standard is better with maybe 22 or 23 players who are decent but not spectacular inter county footballers. I also think they are a young team and with the manager can improve.
I've also said I think they are closer to the top table than they have been since 2005 but I think a lot of that has been down to other teams coming back to them as much as it's been them catching up.
It's good that you can re watch the game back under the comfort of the settee, be able to stop rewind the action, having many camera angles and no tension confusion and other distractions around you.
The ref has one opportunity to carry out his duties under the microscope of thousands of supporters at the ground, the players and managers.
Did you manage to watch all the handling errors wrong decision the players made and poor tactics the managers made?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 25, 2022, 09:13:10 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2022, 08:36:41 PM
Having now watched the game back I stand by my initial comments. Armagh we're very poor and Donegal we're very good and deserved to win comfortably. Deegan had a very poor game. I see no foul in the build up to the goal. The ball to me seems to bounce out of the keepers hands as much as it is taken out. It then seems to go in off the keeper.
The McHugh decision was soft as well. Whether that would have made a difference or not we will never know. But we do know though is that ultimately Donegal we're the far better side yesterday.
It's not the big decisions that annoyed me with Deegan's performance yesterday. It's the smaller things. A lot of this may be down to loss aversion as humans tend to put far more weight on the things that go against them rather than what goes for them but Deegan seemed to give Donegal their frees far more easily but also played advantage to Donegal far more. It seemed like similar tackles were not being refereed in similar ways.
I think what most drew my ire were four incidents. Two in each half. In the first half one of the Donegal midfielders was pushed out over the sideline. A free was correctly awarded. Before it was taken there was some pushing and shoving for the ball and the referee immediately indicated an advantage before Donegal even took the kick. I can't fathom what kind of advantage he thought he was playing. Shortly after there was a swarm tackle situation. As the whistle blew Rian O'Neill won the ball and played a quick pass. Now the whistle had gone but Deegan hadn't indicated which way the free had been awarded (and it wasn't obvious) and O'Neill had his back to him. Deegan moved the free up.
In the second half Deegan warned the Donegal keeper several times to hurry up then did nothing and let him take his time. Finally the incident that annoyed me most was when he awarded a hop ball following what I thought was a foul by an Armagh player. Now either it was a foul and was a free out or the defender fell on the ball and touched it on the ground and should have been in a free in. Before the hop ball was taken both teams made a substitution. Before the departing players left the field Deegan restarted the match. The sideline official ran on and told the Armagh sub to come off but didn't go after the Donegal sub. As a result Donegal had sixteen men on the field. They won the hop ball went up the pitch and won a free that Murphy ultimately scored. All with 16 men on the pitch.
Those little things can cumulatively be very frustrating for a supporter. They can impact the flow and momentum of a match.
For me Deegan had a poor game which thankfully didn't impact the result although I appreciate it's a very difficult job. I agree with Oisin that we should at least trial two referees at senior inter county level.
On the current Armagh squad I think it's as strong as it has been in 15 years. It may lack the top drawer player with the exception of O'Neill but conversely I think the average standard is better with maybe 22 or 23 players who are decent but not spectacular inter county footballers. I also think they are a young team and with the manager can improve.
I've also said I think they are closer to the top table than they have been since 2005 but I think a lot of that has been down to other teams coming back to them as much as it's been them catching up.
It's good that you can re watch the game back under the comfort of the settee, be able to stop rewind the action, having many camera angles and no tension confusion and other distractions around you.
The ref has one opportunity to carry out his duties under the microscope of thousands of supporters at the ground, the players and managers.
Did you manage to watch all the handling errors wrong decision the players made and poor tactics the managers made?
Am I to infer that means referees can not have bad games? I've said for years that I think the game is too big too fast and too professional for one single amateur referee. I also think that they do not get enough assistance from the association. But I do not feel that leaves them above reproach when providing an honest assessment of their performance.
I've watched NFL games over the past few years with 8 officials on the field, the extraordinary advantage of the clock stopping literally all the time, and a central VAR time supervising every single match - and they still make calls that make your head scratch, and they still have calls to make where it's impossible to be sure if they're right.
More officials doesn't improve things. In our sport, it would just mean more officials to complain about.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 25, 2022, 09:08:58 PM
Quote from: seanaglis on April 25, 2022, 08:53:58 PM
Armagh stayed the night in Jacksons- right in the middle in Ballybofey.
Would it not have been wiser to stay somewhere a few miles outside the town- less interactions with supporters staying for the match hyping them up and asking for photos etc?
Was in the lobby before the match and it was strange to see i thought
It's an unnecessary expenditure full stop. It's what, maybe just over an hour from Armagh City to Ballybofey. Americans would call them neighbouring towns.
David I think you're suffering a little there from trying to prove the hypothesis by any means necessary. Career defenders give away fewer fouls than converted defenders, largely because since they were nippers they've been learning week-in, week-out where the fine line lies between physical play and a foul, and also can read referees better from the early exchanges. Armagh had too many players on Sunday who aren't experienced enough at defending to judge that line as well.
Re Rian's disallowed goal. I saw it as charging into the keeper myself. Between that, the general acceptance that smashing a keeper in the small square isn't a done thing, the general confusion and the thrown ball, it's a free 99 times out of 100 with 99 referees out of 100. The exception being when a brave or biased umpire makes a name for himself.
I see your point on defenders. I think one on one Armaghs defenders are not the strongest and they rely on a disciplined well marshalled system to succeed. In that regard Armagh are probably lacking. In terms of the goal I think we can agree to disagree.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 25, 2022, 09:26:47 PM
I've watched NFL games over the past few years with 8 officials on the field, the extraordinary advantage of the clock stopping literally all the time, and a central VAR time supervising every single match - and they still make calls that make your head scratch, and they still have calls to make where it's impossible to be sure if they're right.
More officials doesn't improve things. In our sport, it would just mean more officials to complain about.
It almost goes too far the other way. I just don't think it's fair expecting an amateur ref to cover games the size and speed of our games with little help.
But you've the benefit of re watching it. The ref is well supported at that level for sure. None of them are beyond reproach and get their assessments the next day. Someone is in the stand writing up reports.
He'll go away from a game like most ref's and be be self critical about their game.
You want the perfect ref David and you only list the contested decisions that went against Armagh :)
Looking at it again, Maurice could not have seen how the goalie lost the ball, if ever he did have it under his control, but Rian was the player who was most in possession of the ball afterwards, at the very least he made contact once, twice and then palmed it into the net. It doesn't have the look of a clean strike of a loose ball.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2022, 08:36:41 PM
Having now watched the game back I stand by my initial comments. Armagh we're very poor and Donegal we're very good and deserved to win comfortably. Deegan had a very poor game. I see no foul in the build up to the goal. The ball to me seems to bounce out of the keepers hands as much as it is taken out. It then seems to go in off the keeper.
The McHugh decision was soft as well. Whether that would have made a difference or not we will never know. But we do know though is that ultimately Donegal we're the far better side yesterday.
It's not the big decisions that annoyed me with Deegan's performance yesterday. It's the smaller things. A lot of this may be down to loss aversion as humans tend to put far more weight on the things that go against them rather than what goes for them but Deegan seemed to give Donegal their frees far more easily but also played advantage to Donegal far more. It seemed like similar tackles were not being refereed in similar ways.
I think what most drew my ire were four incidents. Two in each half. In the first half one of the Donegal midfielders was pushed out over the sideline. A free was correctly awarded. Before it was taken there was some pushing and shoving for the ball and the referee immediately indicated an advantage before Donegal even took the kick. I can't fathom what kind of advantage he thought he was playing. Shortly after there was a swarm tackle situation. As the whistle blew Rian O'Neill won the ball and played a quick pass. Now the whistle had gone but Deegan hadn't indicated which way the free had been awarded (and it wasn't obvious) and O'Neill had his back to him. Deegan moved the free up.
In the second half Deegan warned the Donegal keeper several times to hurry up then did nothing and let him take his time. Finally the incident that annoyed me most was when he awarded a hop ball following what I thought was a foul by an Armagh player. Now either it was a foul and was a free out or the defender fell on the ball and touched it on the ground and should have been in a free in. Before the hop ball was taken both teams made a substitution. Before the departing players left the field Deegan restarted the match. The sideline official ran on and told the Armagh sub to come off but didn't go after the Donegal sub. As a result Donegal had sixteen men on the field. They won the hop ball went up the pitch and won a free that Murphy ultimately scored. All with 16 men on the pitch.
Those little things can cumulatively be very frustrating for a supporter. They can impact the flow and momentum of a match.
For me Deegan had a poor game which thankfully didn't impact the result although I appreciate it's a very difficult job. I agree with Oisin that we should at least trial two referees at senior inter county level.
On the current Armagh squad I think it's as strong as it has been in 15 years. It may lack the top drawer player with the exception of O'Neill but conversely I think the average standard is better with maybe 22 or 23 players who are decent but not spectacular inter county footballers. I also think they are a young team and with the manager can improve.
I've also said I think they are closer to the top table than they have been since 2005 but I think a lot of that has been down to other teams coming back to them as much as it's been them catching up.
Good assessment. However, I'm not with you or Oisin with having a ref in each half of the field .... effectively, we'd have different standards and decisions being made in both halves of the field by two different refs ... oh wait, we have that as well with only one ref. Anyway, ensure each ref reaches a certain fitness level, ensure their eye-sight is top notch, ensure their logic and decision making abilities are consistent ... and once they make a serious blunder, red card them and send them for re-training.
Donegal got a score with 16 men on the field ... it's time to call in the lawyers again :D
There's a serious gap now for first round losers and the next game ... would much prefer to see Armagh playing again this weekend than to ponder the performance for another month.
So where are these perfect amateur ref's? You red card him who comes in? What gets a red card for a ref?
Lads, Armagh lost the game because ye played poorly and have a poor manager. The ref had zero bearing on the game. Some of ye spend your lives looking for the bogey man who's out to get you but hardly ever look at yourselves.
Quote from: Rossfan on April 25, 2022, 07:03:15 PM
Not much between half way line and the 65s!
Indeed. This is not a very recent picture, but it hardly got longer. About 10m shorter than Croker, I would say,
(https://i.ibb.co/MZDMxxp/ballybofey.png) (https://ibb.co/S5XR440)
In a somewhat related issue, several people have said that Armagh should have pressed up on the kick out in the first half. There was a strong wind, such a press risked Patton simply booting it over three quarters of the players and giving Donegal a run on the Armagh goal. There are many things did that Armagh did that were unwise, I am not certain that this was one of them.
Quote from: Main Street on April 25, 2022, 09:54:45 PM
You want the perfect ref David and you only list the contested decisions that went against Armagh :)
Looking at it again, Maurice could not have seen how the goalie lost the ball, if ever he did have it under his control, but Rian was the player who was most in possession of the ball afterwards, at the very least he made contact once, twice and then palmed it into the net. It doesn't have the look of a clean strike of a loose ball.
He doesn't appear to be the one who palms it into the net to me. It seems to come off a Donegal player. The free though had already been awarded at that stage and I am really struggling to see why. but as is acknowledged coming as it did soo quickly from the throw in it was always going to be a difficult decision to make so I'm less annoyed with it than with some others.
I don't think I want the perfect ref because that doesn't exist. I do think though it brings up an interesting point. What kind of ref do we want. I remember talking to a friend about this years ago. He played at the highest level. I most certainly did not and was always taught you play to the referee. Ie you want a ref who sets his stall out on early on things like tackles, number of steps and is consistent there after even if that means there's lots of frees and the game is disjointed. My friend always said that he didnt care if a ref was inconsistent throughout a game because he was getting things wrong. He much preferred a referee who made as few decisions as possible and let the game flow as much as possible even if that resulted in inconsistency.
On me highlighting the decisions that went against Armagh I completely agree but that's human nature. I was during the game far more acutely aware of decisions that were adverse to Armagh than those that weren't. And I don't think you can balance it out in that way.
The losing team are always more critical of the ref, that's standard. I could ref a team one week and the whole team shake hands and applaud your decisions, the next game they are foaming at the mouth and saying you're crap!
You've ref'd it the same way for every game, go figure
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 25, 2022, 10:03:45 PM
So where are these perfect amateur ref's? You red card him who comes in? What gets a red card for a ref?
You remove the ref from the system after post-game analysis has confirmed they made an error that was or could have been potentially game changing in the context of that game ... yes, it's harsh for an amateur referee, and it's also harsh when an amateur player has their season unduly altered by a bad decision from a ref. As for what constitutes a potentially game changing decision e.g. awarding, or not, a penalty ... sending off, or not, a player ... a series of one-sided decisions in a game etc. etc.
N.B. this ref. discussion is a tangent, and should not take away from Donegal's win, best team on the day won, no referee decision was going to change that yesterday. Deegan is one of the better refs. around at the minute in my view, again this ref. discussion is not a direct reaction to yesterday, rather a culmative view that many refs. are getting it wrong. For some reason, it's usually football ... hurling doesn't seem to have the same ref. notoriety ... nor player melee's for that matter.
Quote from: balladmaker on April 25, 2022, 10:40:15 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 25, 2022, 10:03:45 PM
So where are these perfect amateur ref's? You red card him who comes in? What gets a red card for a ref?
You remove the ref from the system after post-game analysis has confirmed they made an error that was or could have been potentially game changing in the context of that game ... yes, it's harsh for an amateur referee, and it's also harsh when an amateur player has their season unduly altered by a bad decision from a ref. As for what constitutes a potentially game changing decision e.g. awarding, or not, a penalty ... sending off, or not, a player ... a series of one-sided decisions in a game etc. etc.
N.B. this ref. discussion is a tangent, and should not take away from Donegal's win, best team on the day won, no referee decision was going to change that yesterday. Deegan is one of the better refs. around at the minute in my view, again this ref. discussion is not a direct reaction to yesterday, rather a culmative view that many refs. are getting it wrong. For some reason, it's usually football ... hurling doesn't seem to have the same ref. notoriety ... nor player melee's for that matter.
Largely agree with that although think Deegan was poor yesterday. The difficulty becomes was he game changing. If Rians goal stood Armagh might have come back into it but equally it may have galvanised Donegal to come again. Donegal we're far superior and I think they would have won no matter who the referee was.
Still feeling really down about that. Didn't expect to win but I didn't expect us to lie down and die either. No aggression whatsoever from us which was strange. Donegal thoroughly deserved winners.
On Deegan. He had no impact on the result whatsoever. A few of it fans around me getting very annoyed with him but I couldn't see why. Frustration at our own teams ineptitude maybe. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he was perfect and he got things wrong and was inconsistent I felt on a few things. As for the goal. I was too far away to see what happened and I haven't watched it back so don't know yet. I would say that Deegan seemed quite far away from it also. My twopence worth on him.
Quote from: balladmaker on April 25, 2022, 10:40:15 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 25, 2022, 10:03:45 PM
So where are these perfect amateur ref's? You red card him who comes in? What gets a red card for a ref?
You remove the ref from the system after post-game analysis has confirmed they made an error that was or could have been potentially game changing in the context of that game ... yes, it's harsh for an amateur referee, and it's also harsh when an amateur player has their season unduly altered by a bad decision from a ref. As for what constitutes a potentially game changing decision e.g. awarding, or not, a penalty ... sending off, or not, a player ... a series of one-sided decisions in a game etc. etc.
N.B. this ref. discussion is a tangent, and should not take away from Donegal's win, best team on the day won, no referee decision was going to change that yesterday. Deegan is one of the better refs. around at the minute in my view, again this ref. discussion is not a direct reaction to yesterday, rather a culmative view that many refs. are getting it wrong. For some reason, it's usually football ... hurling doesn't seem to have the same ref. notoriety ... nor player melee's for that matter.
In your county are there lads queuing up to be verbally abused from supporters and teams or faceless online keyboard warriors?
Hmmm, let's put it this way we don't have a endless line of brilliant referees, nor do the GAA have the money to professionalise refereeing.. referees are assessed and based on those assessments a championship panel of referees are picked to do the games. They are their on merit, now it seems you'd prefer to go down the pecking order and have some that haven't met the standards and throw them into the white hot atmosphere of Ulster championship?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 25, 2022, 11:10:31 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 25, 2022, 10:40:15 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 25, 2022, 10:03:45 PM
So where are these perfect amateur ref's? You red card him who comes in? What gets a red card for a ref?
You remove the ref from the system after post-game analysis has confirmed they made an error that was or could have been potentially game changing in the context of that game ... yes, it's harsh for an amateur referee, and it's also harsh when an amateur player has their season unduly altered by a bad decision from a ref. As for what constitutes a potentially game changing decision e.g. awarding, or not, a penalty ... sending off, or not, a player ... a series of one-sided decisions in a game etc. etc.
N.B. this ref. discussion is a tangent, and should not take away from Donegal's win, best team on the day won, no referee decision was going to change that yesterday. Deegan is one of the better refs. around at the minute in my view, again this ref. discussion is not a direct reaction to yesterday, rather a culmative view that many refs. are getting it wrong. For some reason, it's usually football ... hurling doesn't seem to have the same ref. notoriety ... nor player melee's for that matter.
In your county are there lads queuing up to be verbally abused from supporters and teams or faceless online keyboard warriors?
Hmmm, let's put it this way we don't have a endless line of brilliant referees, nor do the GAA have the money to professionalise refereeing.. referees are assessed and based on those assessments a championship panel of referees are picked to do the games. They are their on merit, now it seems you'd prefer to go down the pecking order and have some that haven't met the standards and throw them into the white hot atmosphere of Ulster championship?
Would professionalising assist? Genuine question not necessarily advocating for it but might it help?
Donegal were good but not the team of old. They kicked a lot balls into the keepers hands in the first half. Murphy still the leade and will be hard replaced when he returns in a few years. Jason McGee was impressive in the middle
Will Oisin Gallen be back for the Cavan game? He's been out for a few months
Quote from: thewobbler on April 25, 2022, 09:08:58 PM
Quote from: seanaglis on April 25, 2022, 08:53:58 PM
Armagh stayed the night in Jacksons- right in the middle in Ballybofey.
Would it not have been wiser to stay somewhere a few miles outside the town- less interactions with supporters staying for the match hyping them up and asking for photos etc?
Was in the lobby before the match and it was strange to see i thought
It's an unnecessary expenditure full stop. It's what, maybe just over an hour from Armagh City to Ballybofey. Americans would call them neighbouring towns.
David I think you're suffering a little there from trying to prove the hypothesis by any means necessary. Career defenders give away fewer fouls than converted defenders, largely because since they were nippers they've been learning week-in, week-out where the fine line lies between physical play and a foul, and also can read referees better from the early exchanges. Armagh had too many players on Sunday who aren't experienced enough at defending to judge that line as well.
Re Rian's disallowed goal. I saw it as charging into the keeper myself. Between that, the general acceptance that smashing a keeper in the small square isn't a done thing, the general confusion and the thrown ball, it's a free 99 times out of 100 with 99 referees out of 100. The exception being when a brave or biased umpire makes a name for himself.
As someone from Armagh City it took a brave bit more than an hour to get from Armagh to Ballybofey. Unfortunately there isn't a single player from the city near the team. If all the players are to meet to travel to match on the morning of game that is probably an extra half hour to travel to pick up point. At the very best that would be 2 and quarter hours driving time alone. That doesn't allow for match day traffic. Hardly ideal preparation.
Just thought I would argue about something else. Fed up with football at the minute . :(
About time half you boys took up the whistle to see what it's like. I went no further than ref U-16. Players weren't the problem, it was parents and supporters mouthing who didn't know the rules, Never seen as Many Armagh cry about the ref, give it a go to see how good you are. Donegal won fairly handy, if they were very good they wouldnt have missed so much in the first half. And the goal, the ball pulled out of the keeper hands.
I'm just puzzled about what the ref was supposed to do yesterday about the goal. With slowed down close-up tv footage we can't even get agreement on what actually happened: was the ball stripped out of Patton's grip?; did O'Neill foul the ball after that in putting it in the net? As someone said earlier, 99/100 refs would have made the same call.
Had he given the goal Donegal supporters and, I expect, players would be up in arms (correctly IMO) that it should have been a free out.
Some people are in cloud cuckoo land when it comes to their expectations of referees.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2022, 11:28:32 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 25, 2022, 11:10:31 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 25, 2022, 10:40:15 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 25, 2022, 10:03:45 PM
So where are these perfect amateur ref's? You red card him who comes in? What gets a red card for a ref?
You remove the ref from the system after post-game analysis has confirmed they made an error that was or could have been potentially game changing in the context of that game ... yes, it's harsh for an amateur referee, and it's also harsh when an amateur player has their season unduly altered by a bad decision from a ref. As for what constitutes a potentially game changing decision e.g. awarding, or not, a penalty ... sending off, or not, a player ... a series of one-sided decisions in a game etc. etc.
N.B. this ref. discussion is a tangent, and should not take away from Donegal's win, best team on the day won, no referee decision was going to change that yesterday. Deegan is one of the better refs. around at the minute in my view, again this ref. discussion is not a direct reaction to yesterday, rather a culmative view that many refs. are getting it wrong. For some reason, it's usually football ... hurling doesn't seem to have the same ref. notoriety ... nor player melee's for that matter.
In your county are there lads queuing up to be verbally abused from supporters and teams or faceless online keyboard warriors?
Hmmm, let's put it this way we don't have a endless line of brilliant referees, nor do the GAA have the money to professionalise refereeing.. referees are assessed and based on those assessments a championship panel of referees are picked to do the games. They are their on merit, now it seems you'd prefer to go down the pecking order and have some that haven't met the standards and throw them into the white hot atmosphere of Ulster championship?
Would professionalising assist? Genuine question not necessarily advocating for it but might it help?
I think some of the rules in gaa are difficult/interepted in different ways e.g. the tackle.
Or even that goal on Sunday - I think it was taken from the keeper's arms but others say not. Even with 4 or 5 views and slowed down etc. there's still debate.
Compare to rugby rules (I think we should always look at/use other sports' ideas) gaa is very ambigious.
As well as that, supporters don't know half the rules...me included.
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 12:24:28 AM
I'm just puzzled about what the ref was supposed to do yesterday about the goal. With slowed down close-up tv footage we can't even get agreement on what actually happened: was the ball stripped out of Patton's grip?; did O'Neill foul the ball after that in putting it in the net? As someone said earlier, 99/100 refs would have made the same call.
Had he given the goal Donegal supporters and, I expect, players would be up in arms (correctly IMO) that it should have been a free out.
Some people are in cloud cuckoo land when it comes to their expectations of referees.
If Armagh had been awarded that goal I'd have considered it very, very lucky. It's hard to pick up on a clear cut foul but likewise hard to see how the goal was scored legally. It reminds me a bit of Paddy McKeevers v Dublin in that it was a very unorthodox goal but on that occasion it stood.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 25, 2022, 11:43:43 PM
About time half you boys took up the whistle to see what it's like. I went no further than ref U-16. Players weren't the problem, it was parents and supporters mouthing who didn't know the rules, Never seen as Many Armagh cry about the ref, give it a go to see how good you are. Donegal won fairly handy, if they were very good they wouldnt have missed so much in the first half. And the goal, the ball pulled out of the keeper hands.
You have a proper bee in your bonnet with Armagh, did someone from Armagh pork your Mrs? I have yet to see anyone say the ref cost Armagh the match. Two very obvious talking points does not equate to Armagh people crying about the ref - I think everyone on this thread, Armagh or otherwise is in agreement that Donegal were the much better side and deserved their win
Quote from: general_lee on April 26, 2022, 10:33:56 AM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 12:24:28 AM
I'm just puzzled about what the ref was supposed to do yesterday about the goal. With slowed down close-up tv footage we can't even get agreement on what actually happened: was the ball stripped out of Patton's grip?; did O'Neill foul the ball after that in putting it in the net? As someone said earlier, 99/100 refs would have made the same call.
Had he given the goal Donegal supporters and, I expect, players would be up in arms (correctly IMO) that it should have been a free out.
Some people are in cloud cuckoo land when it comes to their expectations of referees.
If Armagh had been awarded that goal I'd have considered it very, very lucky. It's hard to pick up on a clear cut foul but likewise hard to see how the goal was scored legally. It reminds me a bit of Paddy McKeevers v Dublin in that it was a very unorthodox goal but on that occasion it stood.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 25, 2022, 11:43:43 PM
About time half you boys took up the whistle to see what it's like. I went no further than ref U-16. Players weren't the problem, it was parents and supporters mouthing who didn't know the rules, Never seen as Many Armagh cry about the ref, give it a go to see how good you are. Donegal won fairly handy, if they were very good they wouldnt have missed so much in the first half. And the goal, the ball pulled out of the keeper hands.
You have a proper bee in your bonnet with Armagh, did someone from Armagh pork your Mrs? I have yet to see anyone say the ref cost Armagh the match. Two very obvious talking points does not equate to Armagh people crying about the ref - I think everyone on this thread, Armagh or otherwise is in agreement that Donegal were the much better side and deserved their win
;D There's a few on this thread with a serious grudge against us. We've hit a raw nerve at some point. ;D
Just to change the angle of complaining for a bit...
Donegal's second last 'point', the one that extended their lead from six to seven points as the clock hit 70 minutes, was 100% wide*. Anyone down the river end of the terrace would've been able to follow the flight of the ball and would be able to confirm this.
A classic Armagh comeback scuppered by yet more poor officiating. Definite grounds for an appeal!
*not a joke. 100% wide.
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 12:24:28 AM
I'm just puzzled about what the ref was supposed to do yesterday about the goal. With slowed down close-up tv footage we can't even get agreement on what actually happened: was the ball stripped out of Patton's grip?; did O'Neill foul the ball after that in putting it in the net? As someone said earlier, 99/100 refs would have made the same call.
Had he given the goal Donegal supporters and, I expect, players would be up in arms (correctly IMO) that it should have been a free out.
Some people are in cloud cuckoo land when it comes to their expectations of referees.
I'm puzzled why he did what he did. What did he think the foul was? Deegan didn't seem to indicate. The whistle certainly came well before the ball entered the net so it couldn't have been adjudged a foul. Surely the referee should be playing on unless he sees a foul. The idea he can try and pre-empt controversy is a nonsense.
I also don't think 99 out of 100 refs would have made the same call. If history has taught us anything it's that Sludden wouldn't have made it.
That said I think we all agree that it didn't stop the team who should have won from winning so in that regard it doesn't really matter other than to evaluate Deegans performance
Am I the only person in Ireland who construed this as charging?
O'Neill had his head down and was burrowing into the keeper. If he had the ball, it was charging. If not, it was an some special kind of illegal move that you rarely see, along the lines of tackling with the head.
It's a free 99/100 and Martin Sludden would never make that same call again.
Quote from: general_lee on April 26, 2022, 10:33:56 AM
Quote from: J70 on April 26, 2022, 12:24:28 AM
I'm just puzzled about what the ref was supposed to do yesterday about the goal. With slowed down close-up tv footage we can't even get agreement on what actually happened: was the ball stripped out of Patton's grip?; did O'Neill foul the ball after that in putting it in the net? As someone said earlier, 99/100 refs would have made the same call.
Had he given the goal Donegal supporters and, I expect, players would be up in arms (correctly IMO) that it should have been a free out.
Some people are in cloud cuckoo land when it comes to their expectations of referees.
If Armagh had been awarded that goal I'd have considered it very, very lucky. It's hard to pick up on a clear cut foul but likewise hard to see how the goal was scored legally. It reminds me a bit of Paddy McKeevers v Dublin in that it was a very unorthodox goal but on that occasion it stood.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on April 25, 2022, 11:43:43 PM
About time half you boys took up the whistle to see what it's like. I went no further than ref U-16. Players weren't the problem, it was parents and supporters mouthing who didn't know the rules, Never seen as Many Armagh cry about the ref, give it a go to see how good you are. Donegal won fairly handy, if they were very good they wouldnt have missed so much in the first half. And the goal, the ball pulled out of the keeper hands.
You have a proper bee in your bonnet with Armagh, did someone from Armagh pork your Mrs? I have yet to see anyone say the ref cost Armagh the match. Two very obvious talking points does not equate to Armagh people crying about the ref - I think everyone on this thread, Armagh or otherwise is in agreement that Donegal were the much better side and deserved their win
You're giving the weasel a bit too much credit there. The poster is obviously an adolescent and won't have had a Mrs to be 'porker' as of yet
I have seen the disallowed goal. I can't see anything obvious as to why not was disallowed but at the same time I can't see anything obvious as to why it should have been allowed. If it was off stripping the ball from the jeers hands fair enough but there's no way Deegan could have seen it from where he was. Woukd he have been given the call by an umpire?
Quote from: thewobbler on April 26, 2022, 09:12:52 PM
Am I the only person in Ireland who construed this as charging?
O'Neill had his head down and was burrowing into the keeper. If he had the ball, it was charging. If not, it was an some special kind of illegal move that you rarely see, along the lines of tackling with the head.
It's a free 99/100 and Martin Sludden would never make that same call again.
What point do you think he's charging? To me he seems to catch the ball, turn, fall and then try and get back up, drop the ball and then try and pick it up. Yes he's leaving forward but that's from falling and from bending to lift the ball. I genuinely don't see a charge. I definitely don't think it's given as a foul any more than 50/50.
Anyway I think the debate shows it ambiguous enough, so I'll go back to at least it probably didn't matter.
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 26, 2022, 09:23:50 PM
I have seen the disallowed goal. I can't see anything obvious as to why not was disallowed but at the same time I can't see anything obvious as to why it should have been allowed. If it was off stripping the ball from the jeers hands fair enough but there's no way Deegan could have seen it from where he was. Woukd he have been given the call by an umpire?
Can the umpire make such a call?
Surely the position has to be you allow the goal unless you see a reason not to (although in this instance the free seems to have been awarded well before the ball even touches the keepers hands). Rather than you don't allow the goal unless you see a reason to.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 26, 2022, 09:29:33 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 26, 2022, 09:12:52 PM
Am I the only person in Ireland who construed this as charging?
O'Neill had his head down and was burrowing into the keeper. If he had the ball, it was charging. If not, it was an some special kind of illegal move that you rarely see, along the lines of tackling with the head.
It's a free 99/100 and Martin Sludden would never make that same call again.
What point do you think he's charging? To me he seems to catch the ball, turn, fall and then try and get back up, drop the ball and then try and pick it up. Yes he's leaving forward but that's from falling and from bending to lift the ball. I genuinely don't see a charge. I definitely don't think it's given as a foul any more than 50/50.
Anyway I think the debate shows it ambiguous enough, so I'll go back to at least it probably didn't matter.
Around the 30 second mark on this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/gaelic-games/61207999
His head is down in Patton's midriff for a couple of seconds. I've absolutely no idea who had possession of the ball during those seconds. It probably switched a coupon of times. But whether head down with the ball, head down without the ball, I would make it the most obvious call among a dozen indecipherables.
Not that it likely would have mattered in the end but it's a joke that Deegan could see a foul there, would love to hear his reasoning on what he saw from a mile away.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 26, 2022, 09:59:21 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 26, 2022, 09:29:33 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 26, 2022, 09:12:52 PM
Am I the only person in Ireland who construed this as charging?
O'Neill had his head down and was burrowing into the keeper. If he had the ball, it was charging. If not, it was an some special kind of illegal move that you rarely see, along the lines of tackling with the head.
It's a free 99/100 and Martin Sludden would never make that same call again.
What point do you think he's charging? To me he seems to catch the ball, turn, fall and then try and get back up, drop the ball and then try and pick it up. Yes he's leaving forward but that's from falling and from bending to lift the ball. I genuinely don't see a charge. I definitely don't think it's given as a foul any more than 50/50.
Anyway I think the debate shows it ambiguous enough, so I'll go back to at least it probably didn't matter.
Around the 30 second mark on this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/gaelic-games/61207999
His head is down in Patton's midriff for a couple of seconds. I've absolutely no idea who had possession of the ball during those seconds. It probably switched a coupon of times. But whether head down with the ball, head down without the ball, I would make it the most obvious call among a dozen indecipherables.
Ahh ok. To me he seems to bent over trying to come up rather than charging through but I can see where you are coming from.
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 26, 2022, 10:02:50 PM
Not that it likely would have mattered in the end but it's a joke that Deegan could see a foul there, would love to hear his reasoning on what he saw from a mile away.
Do you really think him standing any closer would have made a difference?
Quote from: thewobbler on April 26, 2022, 10:04:26 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 26, 2022, 10:02:50 PM
Not that it likely would have mattered in the end but it's a joke that Deegan could see a foul there, would love to hear his reasoning on what he saw from a mile away.
Do you really think him standing any closer would have made a difference?
Not criticising him for his positioning in anyway, Usain Bolt couldnt keep up with a football being kicked long. But how he was able to call a foul l don't know
Umpires body language...neither went toward pointing for green flag to be raised or reaching for it.
True but the whistle had gone by that stage. The Armagh players didn't go to celebrate either as they immediately went to remonstrate with Deegan. In essence I think the umpires had played to the whistle and stopped
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 26, 2022, 10:13:04 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 26, 2022, 10:04:26 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 26, 2022, 10:02:50 PM
Not that it likely would have mattered in the end but it's a joke that Deegan could see a foul there, would love to hear his reasoning on what he saw from a mile away.
Do you really think him standing any closer would have made a difference?
Not criticising him for his positioning in anyway, Usain Bolt couldnt keep up with a football being kicked long. But how he was able to call a foul l don't know
Oisin was able to see it better 100 meters away sure
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 27, 2022, 07:38:54 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 26, 2022, 10:13:04 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 26, 2022, 10:04:26 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 26, 2022, 10:02:50 PM
Not that it likely would have mattered in the end but it's a joke that Deegan could see a foul there, would love to hear his reasoning on what he saw from a mile away.
Do you really think him standing any closer would have made a difference?
Not criticising him for his positioning in anyway, Usain Bolt couldnt keep up with a football being kicked long. But how he was able to call a foul l don't know
Oisin was able to see it better 100 meters away sure
Oisin is the premier pundit on TV but really he shouldn't be analysing incidents involving his nephew, playing for his county.
Don't see any charging from Rian.
Donegal keeper didn't have control of the ball so no foul committed in taking ball from keeper as he didn't have it under his control.
Only potentially unclear action I can see is the delivery of the ball to the net, was it a fisted pass to the net by Rian or a mid-air fist ... if the latter, goal should have stood.
Either way, ref couldn't have had a clue what was going on.
Quote from: balladmaker on April 27, 2022, 08:34:34 AM
Don't see any charging from Rian.
Donegal keeper didn't have control of the ball so no foul committed in taking ball from keeper as he didn't have it under his control.
Only potentially unclear action I can see is the delivery of the ball to the net, was it a fisted pass to the net by Rian or a mid-air fist ... if the latter, goal should have stood.
Either way, ref couldn't have had a clue what was going on.
Keeper had it in his hands, what sort of control are you looking for? in hands tight to chest?
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 26, 2022, 10:13:04 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 26, 2022, 10:04:26 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 26, 2022, 10:02:50 PM
Not that it likely would have mattered in the end but it's a joke that Deegan could see a foul there, would love to hear his reasoning on what he saw from a mile away.
Do you really think him standing any closer would have made a difference?
Not criticising him for his positioning in anyway, Usain Bolt couldnt keep up with a football being kicked long. But how he was able to call a foul l don't know
Watch it again, he's less than a meter from the 21 when he blew the whistle, how close would you like him to be? Watched it there again also, the forward actually lost the ball and fell into the keeper in the small square, the keeper had it in his hands also, the ball is pulled or ripped out of his hands, but think the ref blew even before that..
I don't think had it been the other way round Armagh ones would have been complaining
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 27, 2022, 08:47:24 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 27, 2022, 08:34:34 AM
Don't see any charging from Rian.
Donegal keeper didn't have control of the ball so no foul committed in taking ball from keeper as he didn't have it under his control.
Only potentially unclear action I can see is the delivery of the ball to the net, was it a fisted pass to the net by Rian or a mid-air fist ... if the latter, goal should have stood.
Either way, ref couldn't have had a clue what was going on.
Keeper had it in his hands, what sort of control are you looking for? in hands tight to chest?
Had it in his hands loosely and dropped it i.e. lost control of the ball. At that stage, it's open to anyone to go for it.
Quote from: balladmaker on April 27, 2022, 10:12:34 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 27, 2022, 08:47:24 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 27, 2022, 08:34:34 AM
Don't see any charging from Rian.
Donegal keeper didn't have control of the ball so no foul committed in taking ball from keeper as he didn't have it under his control.
Only potentially unclear action I can see is the delivery of the ball to the net, was it a fisted pass to the net by Rian or a mid-air fist ... if the latter, goal should have stood.
Either way, ref couldn't have had a clue what was going on.
Keeper had it in his hands, what sort of control are you looking for? in hands tight to chest?
Had it in his hands loosely and dropped it i.e. lost control of the ball. At that stage, it's open to anyone to go for it.
He didn't drop it though, Ive watched it and stopped it at that point, ball clean and safe in hands then Armagh lads pulls it out of his hands, he doesn't palm it out which would be ok.
Again I think the ref blows before that even
I've watched a good few times as well MR2 and I agree with you. The keeper had the ball in his hands, he didn't drop it, and the ref had blow before that point.
Genuinely as an armagh man watching the game live in ballybofey and actuallyclose to that end of the ground I thought it was a free out so I don't see the angst over it.
Armagh should be more concerned at the inept performance on the pitch and on the side line .
We were bullied across the pitch and in reality could have been beaten out the gate by half time.
Quote from: naka on April 27, 2022, 11:27:38 AM
Genuinely as an armagh man watching the game live in ballybofey and actuallyclose to that end of the ground I thought it was a free out so I don't see the angst over it.
Armagh should be more concerned at the inept performance on the pitch and on the side line .
We were bullied across the pitch and in reality could have been beaten out the gate by half time.
Agreed,
I cannot understand the fuss over the goal - It might have kick-started a recovery but I doubt it. Armagh only played with intensity for 10 minutes at the start of the second half and didn't even manage to score a single point during that period of pressure. It was a 7 point hammering.
Truth be told, Armagh scoring has been on a downward trajectory from the first two league games and they are back to the kind of slow approach play and caution that we seen pre-2021.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 26, 2022, 09:59:21 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 26, 2022, 09:29:33 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 26, 2022, 09:12:52 PM
Am I the only person in Ireland who construed this as charging?
O'Neill had his head down and was burrowing into the keeper. If he had the ball, it was charging. If not, it was an some special kind of illegal move that you rarely see, along the lines of tackling with the head.
It's a free 99/100 and Martin Sludden would never make that same call again.
What point do you think he's charging? To me he seems to catch the ball, turn, fall and then try and get back up, drop the ball and then try and pick it up. Yes he's leaving forward but that's from falling and from bending to lift the ball. I genuinely don't see a charge. I definitely don't think it's given as a foul any more than 50/50.
Anyway I think the debate shows it ambiguous enough, so I'll go back to at least it probably didn't matter.
Around the 30 second mark on this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/gaelic-games/61207999
His head is down in Patton's midriff for a couple of seconds. I've absolutely no idea who had possession of the ball during those seconds. It probably switched a coupon of times. But whether head down with the ball, head down without the ball, I would make it the most obvious call among a dozen indecipherables.
That well known Armagh supporter Peter Canavan stated emphatically that it was a goal. It might not have changed the result but it was a crucial juncture in the game.
FWIW I have watched it umpteen times in slow motion and I still can't decide if it is a goal or not so I don't think Deegan can be held at fault here as 9/10 referees would err on the side of caution. The probability is that he had a bit of a guess at it but I would have some sympathy for him as it was not clear cut. If I was being critical then perhaps he should have consulted with his umpires first.
Quote from: APM on April 27, 2022, 11:38:30 AM
Quote from: naka on April 27, 2022, 11:27:38 AM
Genuinely as an armagh man watching the game live in ballybofey and actuallyclose to that end of the ground I thought it was a free out so I don't see the angst over it.
Armagh should be more concerned at the inept performance on the pitch and on the side line .
We were bullied across the pitch and in reality could have been beaten out the gate by half time.
Agreed,
I cannot understand the fuss over the goal - It might have kick-started a recovery but I doubt it. Armagh only played with intensity for 10 minutes at the start of the second half and didn't even manage to score a single point during that period of pressure. It was a 7 point hammering.
Truth be told, Armagh scoring has been on a downward trajectory from the first two league games and they are back to the kind of slow approach play and caution that we seen pre-2021.
We've seen it before that when Armagh have a long lead in time to matches they tend to over analyse things. Then when the players go out onto the pitch they almost seemed crippled by fear. The notable exception was when they fell well behind against Monaghan last year and then threw off the shackles after half time playing some great football in the process. When there was nothing to lose.
There is definitely a mentality that exists with Geezer teams where the absolute fear of losing exceeds the desire to win the match. The players can almost look stifled and too scared of making mistakes.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 27, 2022, 12:01:25 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 26, 2022, 09:59:21 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 26, 2022, 09:29:33 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 26, 2022, 09:12:52 PM
Am I the only person in Ireland who construed this as charging?
O'Neill had his head down and was burrowing into the keeper. If he had the ball, it was charging. If not, it was an some special kind of illegal move that you rarely see, along the lines of tackling with the head.
It's a free 99/100 and Martin Sludden would never make that same call again.
What point do you think he's charging? To me he seems to catch the ball, turn, fall and then try and get back up, drop the ball and then try and pick it up. Yes he's leaving forward but that's from falling and from bending to lift the ball. I genuinely don't see a charge. I definitely don't think it's given as a foul any more than 50/50.
Anyway I think the debate shows it ambiguous enough, so I'll go back to at least it probably didn't matter.
Around the 30 second mark on this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/gaelic-games/61207999
His head is down in Patton's midriff for a couple of seconds. I've absolutely no idea who had possession of the ball during those seconds. It probably switched a coupon of times. But whether head down with the ball, head down without the ball, I would make it the most obvious call among a dozen indecipherables.
That well known Armagh supporter Peter Canavan stated emphatically that it was a goal. It might not have changed the result but it was a crucial juncture in the game.
FWIW I have watched it umpteen times in slow motion and I still can't decide if it is a goal or not so I don't think Deegan can be held at fault here as 9/10 referees would err on the side of caution. The probability is that he had a bit of a guess at it but I would have some sympathy for him as it was not clear cut. If I was being critical then perhaps he should have consulted with his umpires first.
Yeah would agree with that. Anyway we didn't deserve to win and have plenty to improve on ourselves without trying to blame refs. Maybe we'd have pushed on at that stage or maybe Donegal would have upped it again and kept us at arms length, irrelevant now.
I just wonder how much in depth knowledge of the rule book do pundits and commentators actually have.
The amount of bullsh*t reasons given, since introduction, for a black card needing issued are astonishing (and continue to be uttered)
On Sunday, not 1 in the 'studio' or commentating on BBC even suggested that the free might have been for a foul under 4.8 "To wrest the ball from an opponent who has caught the ball" ..not even mentioning that as a possibility and then discounting it....
Quote from: tyroneman on April 27, 2022, 12:41:48 PM
I just wonder how much in depth knowledge of the rule book do pundits and commentators actually have.
The amount of bullsh*t reasons given, since introduction, for a black card needing issued are astonishing (and continue to be uttered)
On Sunday, not 1 in the 'studio' or commentating on BBC even suggested that the free might have been for a foul under 4.8 "To wrest the ball from an opponent who has caught the ball" ..not even mentioning that as a possibility and then discounting it....
The keeper didn't catch the ball. ONeill did.
Well lads should it have given as a goal?
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 27, 2022, 01:53:07 PM
Quote from: tyroneman on April 27, 2022, 12:41:48 PM
I just wonder how much in depth knowledge of the rule book do pundits and commentators actually have.
The amount of bullsh*t reasons given, since introduction, for a black card needing issued are astonishing (and continue to be uttered)
On Sunday, not 1 in the 'studio' or commentating on BBC even suggested that the free might have been for a foul under 4.8 "To wrest the ball from an opponent who has caught the ball" ..not even mentioning that as a possibility and then discounting it....
The keeper didn't catch the ball. ONeill did.
Great. The solicitors are going to parse the legal definition of "caught" now. ;D
Quote from: J70 on April 27, 2022, 02:10:28 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 27, 2022, 01:53:07 PM
Quote from: tyroneman on April 27, 2022, 12:41:48 PM
I just wonder how much in depth knowledge of the rule book do pundits and commentators actually have.
The amount of bullsh*t reasons given, since introduction, for a black card needing issued are astonishing (and continue to be uttered)
On Sunday, not 1 in the 'studio' or commentating on BBC even suggested that the free might have been for a foul under 4.8 "To wrest the ball from an opponent who has caught the ball" ..not even mentioning that as a possibility and then discounting it....
The keeper didn't catch the ball. ONeill did.
Great. The solicitors are going to parse the legal definition of "caught" now. ;D
To me it looked like it bounced in and out of his hands. Besides is there not a definition of caught in the rule book to allow for marks.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 27, 2022, 02:27:07 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 27, 2022, 02:10:28 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 27, 2022, 01:53:07 PM
Quote from: tyroneman on April 27, 2022, 12:41:48 PM
I just wonder how much in depth knowledge of the rule book do pundits and commentators actually have.
The amount of bullsh*t reasons given, since introduction, for a black card needing issued are astonishing (and continue to be uttered)
On Sunday, not 1 in the 'studio' or commentating on BBC even suggested that the free might have been for a foul under 4.8 "To wrest the ball from an opponent who has caught the ball" ..not even mentioning that as a possibility and then discounting it....
The keeper didn't catch the ball. ONeill did.
Great. The solicitors are going to parse the legal definition of "caught" now. ;D
To me it looked like it bounced in and out of his hands. Besides is there not a definition of caught in the rule book to allow for marks.
1. BOUNCE For a player who has
caught the ball to play the ball against the ground with his hand(s) and to catch it on return to his hand(s) again.
or 4.7 - To play the ball up with the hand(s) and
catch it again before it touches the ground, another player, or goal-posts.
I'd say that could have given the ref leeway enough to call it a 'catch / caught' in this instance - ball was loose in the air and keeper got it into his hands = caught
Quote from: tyroneman on April 27, 2022, 02:48:47 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 27, 2022, 02:27:07 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 27, 2022, 02:10:28 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 27, 2022, 01:53:07 PM
Quote from: tyroneman on April 27, 2022, 12:41:48 PM
I just wonder how much in depth knowledge of the rule book do pundits and commentators actually have.
The amount of bullsh*t reasons given, since introduction, for a black card needing issued are astonishing (and continue to be uttered)
On Sunday, not 1 in the 'studio' or commentating on BBC even suggested that the free might have been for a foul under 4.8 "To wrest the ball from an opponent who has caught the ball" ..not even mentioning that as a possibility and then discounting it....
The keeper didn't catch the ball. ONeill did.
Great. The solicitors are going to parse the legal definition of "caught" now. ;D
To me it looked like it bounced in and out of his hands. Besides is there not a definition of caught in the rule book to allow for marks.
1. BOUNCE For a player who has caught the ball to play the ball against the ground with his hand(s) and to catch it on return to his hand(s) again.
or 4.7 - To play the ball up with the hand(s) and catch it again before it touches the ground, another player, or goal-posts.
I'd say that could have given the ref leeway enough to call it a 'catch / caught' in this instance - ball was loose in the air and keeper got it into his hands = caught
Is the issue not how the ball ended up in the net. Rian didn't palm it in or kick it in so how does the goal count
Quote from: APM on April 27, 2022, 11:38:30 AM
Quote from: naka on April 27, 2022, 11:27:38 AM
Genuinely as an armagh man watching the game live in ballybofey and actuallyclose to that end of the ground I thought it was a free out so I don't see the angst over it.
Armagh should be more concerned at the inept performance on the pitch and on the side line .
We were bullied across the pitch and in reality could have been beaten out the gate by half time.
Agreed,
I cannot understand the fuss over the goal - It might have kick-started a recovery but I doubt it. Armagh only played with intensity for 10 minutes at the start of the second half and didn't even manage to score a single point during that period of pressure. It was a 7 point hammering.
Truth be told, Armagh scoring has been on a downward trajectory from the first two league games and they are back to the kind of slow approach play and caution that we seen pre-2021.
Thought the same myself in real time. Immediate instinct was that you can't touch the goalie, free out. It's neither here nor there though. We weren't at the races.
Quote from: tyroneman on April 27, 2022, 02:48:47 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 27, 2022, 02:27:07 PM
Quote from: J70 on April 27, 2022, 02:10:28 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 27, 2022, 01:53:07 PM
Quote from: tyroneman on April 27, 2022, 12:41:48 PM
I just wonder how much in depth knowledge of the rule book do pundits and commentators actually have.
The amount of bullsh*t reasons given, since introduction, for a black card needing issued are astonishing (and continue to be uttered)
On Sunday, not 1 in the 'studio' or commentating on BBC even suggested that the free might have been for a foul under 4.8 "To wrest the ball from an opponent who has caught the ball" ..not even mentioning that as a possibility and then discounting it....
The keeper didn't catch the ball. ONeill did.
Great. The solicitors are going to parse the legal definition of "caught" now. ;D
To me it looked like it bounced in and out of his hands. Besides is there not a definition of caught in the rule book to allow for marks.
1. BOUNCE For a player who has caught the ball to play the ball against the ground with his hand(s) and to catch it on return to his hand(s) again.
or 4.7 - To play the ball up with the hand(s) and catch it again before it touches the ground, another player, or goal-posts.
I'd say that could have given the ref leeway enough to call it a 'catch / caught' in this instance - ball was loose in the air and keeper got it into his hands = caught
I was using bounce in the ordinary context. Surely for it to be a catch there must be an element of control otherwise you'd have far more marks given under contested high balls.
It seems to me that there are too broad schools of thought on the incident.
One there was no foul and the goal should have stood. I subscribe to that school of thought as do others.
Two there was definitely a foul but it can't be agreed wether it was for charging (which I can understand but don't agree with it) whether it was a foul on the keeper (which I don't see) or for how the ball ended up in the net which to me looks like it's actually put in the net by a Donegal player.
How In those circumstances it can be stated that 99/100 refs would award a foul I don't know but what I do know is the 1 ref that mattered adjudged it a foul and we may never know why.
Not that the keeper clearly had both hands securely on the ball and it was clearly ripped out?
Sorry having looked at that again you may be right although it seems like his arms go over O'Neills shoulders. I also can't see a rip as such. I don't think it's the clearest though. I also think the whistle has already gone before that. I just find it interesting that there seems to be no clear consensus about what the foul is amongst those who think there is a foul. Anyway at least it didn't matter and it wasn't the reason I thought Deegan had a poor game.
Jesus, still on about the goal!!!
Quote from: An Watcher on April 27, 2022, 11:10:44 PM
Jesus, still on about the goal!!!
It is the only place they can match Tyrone.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 25, 2022, 09:13:10 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2022, 08:36:41 PM
Having now watched the game back I stand by my initial comments. Armagh we're very poor and Donegal we're very good and deserved to win comfortably. Deegan had a very poor game. I see no foul in the build up to the goal. The ball to me seems to bounce out of the keepers hands as much as it is taken out. It then seems to go in off the keeper.
The McHugh decision was soft as well. Whether that would have made a difference or not we will never know. But we do know though is that ultimately Donegal we're the far better side yesterday.
It's not the big decisions that annoyed me with Deegan's performance yesterday. It's the smaller things. A lot of this may be down to loss aversion as humans tend to put far more weight on the things that go against them rather than what goes for them but Deegan seemed to give Donegal their frees far more easily but also played advantage to Donegal far more. It seemed like similar tackles were not being refereed in similar ways.
I think what most drew my ire were four incidents. Two in each half. In the first half one of the Donegal midfielders was pushed out over the sideline. A free was correctly awarded. Before it was taken there was some pushing and shoving for the ball and the referee immediately indicated an advantage before Donegal even took the kick. I can't fathom what kind of advantage he thought he was playing. Shortly after there was a swarm tackle situation. As the whistle blew Rian O'Neill won the ball and played a quick pass. Now the whistle had gone but Deegan hadn't indicated which way the free had been awarded (and it wasn't obvious) and O'Neill had his back to him. Deegan moved the free up.
In the second half Deegan warned the Donegal keeper several times to hurry up then did nothing and let him take his time. Finally the incident that annoyed me most was when he awarded a hop ball following what I thought was a foul by an Armagh player. Now either it was a foul and was a free out or the defender fell on the ball and touched it on the ground and should have been in a free in. Before the hop ball was taken both teams made a substitution. Before the departing players left the field Deegan restarted the match. The sideline official ran on and told the Armagh sub to come off but didn't go after the Donegal sub. As a result Donegal had sixteen men on the field. They won the hop ball went up the pitch and won a free that Murphy ultimately scored. All with 16 men on the pitch.
Those little things can cumulatively be very frustrating for a supporter. They can impact the flow and momentum of a match.
For me Deegan had a poor game which thankfully didn't impact the result although I appreciate it's a very difficult job. I agree with Oisin that we should at least trial two referees at senior inter county level.
On the current Armagh squad I think it's as strong as it has been in 15 years. It may lack the top drawer player with the exception of O'Neill but conversely I think the average standard is better with maybe 22 or 23 players who are decent but not spectacular inter county footballers. I also think they are a young team and with the manager can improve.
I've also said I think they are closer to the top table than they have been since 2005 but I think a lot of that has been down to other teams coming back to them as much as it's been them catching up.
It's good that you can re watch the game back under the comfort of the settee, be able to stop rewind the action, having many camera angles and no tension confusion and other distractions around you.
The ref has one opportunity to carry out his duties under the microscope of thousands of supporters at the ground, the players and managers.
Did you manage to watch all the handling errors wrong decision the players made and poor tactics the managers made?
David makes a lot of sense when assessing the Armagh performance. Deegan had a poor day notwithstanding that I agree with you that Refs have to make on the spot decisions and they don't have the benefit of differing angles. What annoys me with Deegan and a number of other refs is the inconsistency. if a ref is consistent then there can be no complaints and as happens in Rugby players learn to play the way a referee tends to ref a game. I don't see that in football or hurling. Linesmen and umpires should be trained to assist and given more responsibility. Trained linesmen who are not competing for matches with the ref would help. There are enough decent refs out there who's fitness levels don't match the standard for inter county ref who could do an excellent job in this role. Too much is left to just one person when the ball is in play.
Oh and on the goal on first viewing on tv my reaction was no goal but possibly a penalty, I thought O'Neill was fouled. that said best team won at a canter. Forker is no defender and in my view deserved red for punching.
But they can't ref at that level without passing the fitness test, which is a high enough bar to be fair, they also have the rules test, which again the pass rate is late 90'!
The inconsistency or consistency you are getting or looking for is impossible as the game has so many different variables to rugby and cannot be used as an example, the rules are straight forward and the game is played at a 10th of the pace , the referee is literally 2 meters from play, again impossible for our games.
You mentioned players learning how a ref plays his game and learning from his pattern of play, that is a must for any decent player or manager worth his salt to understand, if a player goes in blindly to how a ref approaches a game then I find that daft..
Some ref's give extra steps in a tackle, some blow for the slightest touch and others forget their cards and don't mind a little hustle in the tackle, other refs are very rulesy and you need to know that .
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 28, 2022, 03:18:13 PM
But they can't ref at that level without passing the fitness test, which is a high enough bar to be fair, they also have the rules test, which again the pass rate is late 90'!
The inconsistency or consistency you are getting or looking for is impossible as the game has so many different variables to rugby and cannot be used as an example, the rules are straight forward and the game is played at a 10th of the pace , the referee is literally 2 meters from play, again impossible for our games.
You mentioned players learning how a ref plays his game and learning from his pattern of play, that is a must for any decent player or manager worth his salt to understand, if a player goes in blindly to how a ref approaches a game then I find that daft..
Some ref's give extra steps in a tackle, some blow for the slightest touch and others forget their cards and don't mind a little hustle in the tackle, other refs are very rulesy and you need to know that .
I think this comes back to what do you look for in a ref. Some have no issues with refs who consistently allow extra steps or consistently allow borderline fouls to go unpunished. Others I've spoken to including inter county players prefer referees who make the odd mistake but try to ref in the same way as all the others.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 28, 2022, 03:18:13 PM
But they can't ref at that level without passing the fitness test, which is a high enough bar to be fair, they also have the rules test, which again the pass rate is late 90'!
The inconsistency or consistency you are getting or looking for is impossible as the game has so many different variables to rugby and cannot be used as an example, the rules are straight forward and the game is played at a 10th of the pace , the referee is literally 2 meters from play, again impossible for our games.
You mentioned players learning how a ref plays his game and learning from his pattern of play, that is a must for any decent player or manager worth his salt to understand, if a player goes in blindly to how a ref approaches a game then I find that daft..
Some ref's give extra steps in a tackle, some blow for the slightest touch and others forget their cards and don't mind a little hustle in the tackle, other refs are very rulesy and you need to know that .
What I am suggesting is that those decent Refs who may not pass the fitness test should be used as linesmen.
Quote from: Applesisapples on April 29, 2022, 10:55:03 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 28, 2022, 03:18:13 PM
But they can't ref at that level without passing the fitness test, which is a high enough bar to be fair, they also have the rules test, which again the pass rate is late 90'!
The inconsistency or consistency you are getting or looking for is impossible as the game has so many different variables to rugby and cannot be used as an example, the rules are straight forward and the game is played at a 10th of the pace , the referee is literally 2 meters from play, again impossible for our games.
You mentioned players learning how a ref plays his game and learning from his pattern of play, that is a must for any decent player or manager worth his salt to understand, if a player goes in blindly to how a ref approaches a game then I find that daft..
Some ref's give extra steps in a tackle, some blow for the slightest touch and others forget their cards and don't mind a little hustle in the tackle, other refs are very rulesy and you need to know that .
What I am suggesting is that those decent Refs who may not pass the fitness test should be used as linesmen.
And put the fittest ref's in the middle who haven't faired as well in the exams? There's more to it I'd expect, experience has to be key, their assessment scores (things we don't see) The ability to handle a match with over 35,000 people watching and whatever on tv. Not for everybody, its a tough gig and anyone thinks he just ways in and blows his whistle and heads off afterwards doesn't have a clue.
If it were that easy we'd have no issues with numbers taking up the whistle, as it is we don't and I'd say a lot of that is down to abuse, like why the fcuk would you do it? It ain't for the money lol!!
I much prefer to be in the middle than the line, Nearly do as many miles and the abuse is closer and more frequent
No sure what pedestal Oisin McConville is on about referees.. During his time managing Cross, he was a scourge along the line. Esp his aura of "how dare you give a decision against Cross!"
His abuse of referees was well known, and many breathed a sigh of relief when he left
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 29, 2022, 11:51:47 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on April 29, 2022, 10:55:03 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 28, 2022, 03:18:13 PM
But they can't ref at that level without passing the fitness test, which is a high enough bar to be fair, they also have the rules test, which again the pass rate is late 90'!
The inconsistency or consistency you are getting or looking for is impossible as the game has so many different variables to rugby and cannot be used as an example, the rules are straight forward and the game is played at a 10th of the pace , the referee is literally 2 meters from play, again impossible for our games.
You mentioned players learning how a ref plays his game and learning from his pattern of play, that is a must for any decent player or manager worth his salt to understand, if a player goes in blindly to how a ref approaches a game then I find that daft..
Some ref's give extra steps in a tackle, some blow for the slightest touch and others forget their cards and don't mind a little hustle in the tackle, other refs are very rulesy and you need to know that .
What I am suggesting is that those decent Refs who may not pass the fitness test should be used as linesmen.
And put the fittest ref's in the middle who haven't faired as well in the exams? There's more to it I'd expect, experience has to be key, their assessment scores (things we don't see) The ability to handle a match with over 35,000 people watching and whatever on tv. Not for everybody, its a tough gig and anyone thinks he just ways in and blows his whistle and heads off afterwards doesn't have a clue.
If it were that easy we'd have no issues with numbers taking up the whistle, as it is we don't and I'd say a lot of that is down to abuse, like why the fcuk would you do it? It ain't for the money lol!!
I much prefer to be in the middle than the line, Nearly do as many miles and the abuse is closer and more frequent
I didn't say those who failed the exams, I have reffed at a reasonable level I know its not easy, that's why linesmen need to be involved.
Quote from: Applesisapples on April 29, 2022, 01:29:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 29, 2022, 11:51:47 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on April 29, 2022, 10:55:03 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 28, 2022, 03:18:13 PM
But they can't ref at that level without passing the fitness test, which is a high enough bar to be fair, they also have the rules test, which again the pass rate is late 90'!
The inconsistency or consistency you are getting or looking for is impossible as the game has so many different variables to rugby and cannot be used as an example, the rules are straight forward and the game is played at a 10th of the pace , the referee is literally 2 meters from play, again impossible for our games.
You mentioned players learning how a ref plays his game and learning from his pattern of play, that is a must for any decent player or manager worth his salt to understand, if a player goes in blindly to how a ref approaches a game then I find that daft..
Some ref's give extra steps in a tackle, some blow for the slightest touch and others forget their cards and don't mind a little hustle in the tackle, other refs are very rulesy and you need to know that .
What I am suggesting is that those decent Refs who may not pass the fitness test should be used as linesmen.
And put the fittest ref's in the middle who haven't faired as well in the exams? There's more to it I'd expect, experience has to be key, their assessment scores (things we don't see) The ability to handle a match with over 35,000 people watching and whatever on tv. Not for everybody, its a tough gig and anyone thinks he just ways in and blows his whistle and heads off afterwards doesn't have a clue.
If it were that easy we'd have no issues with numbers taking up the whistle, as it is we don't and I'd say a lot of that is down to abuse, like why the fcuk would you do it? It ain't for the money lol!!
I much prefer to be in the middle than the line, Nearly do as many miles and the abuse is closer and more frequent
I didn't say those who failed the exams, I have reffed at a reasonable level I know its not easy, that's why linesmen need to be involved.
I'm not saying you haven't ref'd at a reasonable level but have you ref'd In Ulster Championship level?
They do use linesman and umpires, example last week at Corrigan , corner back in the second half was getting shirty with the Cavan lad, they both ended up rolling on the ground, ref booked the the Antrim lad because he started it.. The ref consulted with his linesman (Hurson I believe) and his umpires.
My point stands, in that these are the best we have, they have to jump through a lot of hoops to get there, they just don't turn up and say the are ready.
Are you looking a ref based on how you'd like a ref to ref a game? join the club, what you like won't suit someone else and what he likes won't suit you!
They are assessed, trained and coached to referee these games, poor assessment you don't get the game, CP don't care what pundits or Joe public thinks tbh..
I think like a lot of things in life we like to look for the blame of things elsewhere, 99% of games are not lost because of the ref, some decisions may go against how you felt it should have been but the reality is it's lost either by the players poor decisions or the lines poor decisions.
The ref blew his whistle in that game and he was just, just outside the 21, that was after the ball was launched, nearly 60 yards in a second, now I'm quick but I'd never make that distance to be 2 meters away .. he was just outside the 21 and they were just outside or on the small square that's not bad and closer than the pundits
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 29, 2022, 01:45:48 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on April 29, 2022, 01:29:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 29, 2022, 11:51:47 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on April 29, 2022, 10:55:03 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 28, 2022, 03:18:13 PM
But they can't ref at that level without passing the fitness test, which is a high enough bar to be fair, they also have the rules test, which again the pass rate is late 90'!
The inconsistency or consistency you are getting or looking for is impossible as the game has so many different variables to rugby and cannot be used as an example, the rules are straight forward and the game is played at a 10th of the pace , the referee is literally 2 meters from play, again impossible for our games.
You mentioned players learning how a ref plays his game and learning from his pattern of play, that is a must for any decent player or manager worth his salt to understand, if a player goes in blindly to how a ref approaches a game then I find that daft..
Some ref's give extra steps in a tackle, some blow for the slightest touch and others forget their cards and don't mind a little hustle in the tackle, other refs are very rulesy and you need to know that .
What I am suggesting is that those decent Refs who may not pass the fitness test should be used as linesmen.
And put the fittest ref's in the middle who haven't faired as well in the exams? There's more to it I'd expect, experience has to be key, their assessment scores (things we don't see) The ability to handle a match with over 35,000 people watching and whatever on tv. Not for everybody, its a tough gig and anyone thinks he just ways in and blows his whistle and heads off afterwards doesn't have a clue.
If it were that easy we'd have no issues with numbers taking up the whistle, as it is we don't and I'd say a lot of that is down to abuse, like why the fcuk would you do it? It ain't for the money lol!!
I much prefer to be in the middle than the line, Nearly do as many miles and the abuse is closer and more frequent
I didn't say those who failed the exams, I have reffed at a reasonable level I know its not easy, that's why linesmen need to be involved.
I'm not saying you haven't ref'd at a reasonable level but have you ref'd In Ulster Championship level?
They do use linesman and umpires, example last week at Corrigan , corner back in the second half was getting shirty with the Cavan lad, they both ended up rolling on the ground, ref booked the the Antrim lad because he started it.. The ref consulted with his linesman (Hurson I believe) and his umpires.
My point stands, in that these are the best we have, they have to jump through a lot of hoops to get there, they just don't turn up and say the are ready.
Are you looking a ref based on how you'd like a ref to ref a game? join the club, what you like won't suit someone else and what he likes won't suit you!
They are assessed, trained and coached to referee these games, poor assessment you don't get the game, CP don't care what pundits or Joe public thinks tbh..
I think like a lot of things in life we like to look for the blame of things elsewhere, 99% of games are not lost because of the ref, some decisions may go against how you felt it should have been but the reality is it's lost either by the players poor decisions or the lines poor decisions.
The ref blew his whistle in that game and he was just, just outside the 21, that was after the ball was launched, nearly 60 yards in a second, now I'm quick but I'd never make that distance to be 2 meters away .. he was just outside the 21 and they were just outside or on the small square that's not bad and closer than the pundits
What I mean is I'd like linesmen to be able to notify the ref of foul play he may have missed as the action proceeds, as in soccer and rugby they can't do that. It was someone else who said that linesmen are often competing with the ref for the next game. I'm saying use refs on the line who aren't in the frame for championship games.