gaaboard.com

I'm just curious. There was a report out today that says the unemployment figures in the north are a bit skewed because there's an uncounted number of people who don't work but want to. They can't because they have good reasons, like caring for a family member. The others though, I wonder sometimes. I know several people who don't work, I give them the benefit of the doubt because there are health issues in the family. But I know of at least one other who doesn't work because they feel like it's beneath them and they'll be better off on benefits plus the money their partner earns to prop them up.

I just wonder how widespread the phenomenon is.

When the UK deindustrialised in the 1980s it was decided to put those who lost their jobs on welfare. This is a problem of being part of the UK.
Other countries retrained workers.
UK productivity is atrocious.

The first person to say 'basket case' in this thread gets an automatic 5 day ban for plagiarism.  (and stupidity)

I'd say practically everyone in the North knows someone who chooses not to work. It's endemic in some areas. Despite the much publicised hardships associated with Universal Credit, there is a tipping point, especially if you involve a number of children, at which people decide it's not worth their while working when they get practically everything paid for them. That mindset is multi-generational in some families.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 05, 2021, 08:17:52 AM
I'd say practically everyone in the North knows someone who chooses not to work. It's endemic in some areas. Despite the much publicised hardships associated with Universal Credit, there is a tipping point, especially if you involve a number of children, at which people decide it's not worth their while working when they get practically everything paid for them. That mindset is multi-generational in some families.

Exactly the issue and this gets handed down the generations as TB says.
There is absolutely no incentive to go out and get a job of any description when you see the level of benefit that some of these people are taking home. I know of people who are 'earning' a salary and would be worse off if they went out to work.

How can this be a thing at this stage?

Don't be getting me wrong, the welfare system is there as a catch net for people who have all kinds of issues. It should not be a way of life which it has turned in to here for some people on it.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 05, 2021, 08:17:52 AM
I'd say practically everyone in the North knows someone who chooses not to work. It's endemic in some areas. Despite the much publicised hardships associated with Universal Credit, there is a tipping point, especially if you involve a number of children, at which people decide it's not worth their while working when they get practically everything paid for them. That mindset is multi-generational in some families.

People who are fit to work and chose not to should get zero benefits.

Quote from: seafoid on August 05, 2021, 07:45:11 AM
When the UK deindustrialised in the 1980s it was decided to put those who lost their jobs on welfare. This is a problem of being part of the UK.
Other countries retrained workers.
UK productivity is atrocious.

It also meant productivity became harder to measure as the economy shifted towards being more service based though.

Quote from: Armagh18 on August 05, 2021, 09:07:53 AM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 05, 2021, 08:17:52 AM
I'd say practically everyone in the North knows someone who chooses not to work. It's endemic in some areas. Despite the much publicised hardships associated with Universal Credit, there is a tipping point, especially if you involve a number of children, at which people decide it's not worth their while working when they get practically everything paid for them. That mindset is multi-generational in some families.

People who are fit to work and chose not to should get zero benefits.

Nobody works the system like Derry City folk. There's a row of social housing on a ring road around the town. Luxury towing caravans, Audi jeeps , Mercedes, BMWs etc, even a fecking campervan! No flies on those hoors

Quote from: JoG2 on August 05, 2021, 09:27:18 AM

Quote from: Armagh18 on August 05, 2021, 09:07:53 AM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 05, 2021, 08:17:52 AM
I'd say practically everyone in the North knows someone who chooses not to work. It's endemic in some areas. Despite the much publicised hardships associated with Universal Credit, there is a tipping point, especially if you involve a number of children, at which people decide it's not worth their while working when they get practically everything paid for them. That mindset is multi-generational in some families.

People who are fit to work and chose not to should get zero benefits.

Nobody works the system like Derry City folk. There's a row of social housing on a ring road around the town. Luxury towing caravans, Audi jeeps , Mercedes, BMWs etc, even a fecking campervan! No flies on those hoors

Seriously troubled estate. Riddled with people thrown out of Belfast and Ballymena. The cars etc talk of the town.  A lot of travellers in there now supposedly not travellers anymore. They own a lot of the caravans but undoubtedly others up to no good

As far as economics goes, it's getting more and more skewed towards east of province every year. Derry city is predicted to go into population decline over next 20 years as a result . In Republic to he govt plan to grow Cork to 335k over same period .

There's a whole myriad of issues at play here. Agree that it is endemic in some areas like Derry city and strabane, going back to the 50s and 60s when there genuinely was no work of any kind available, especially for Nationalists. That is generational and benefits become a crutch that is difficult to escape from. Unfortunately, unlike the Nordic countries, there is a severe lack of collective civic pride and individuals have no issue in playing the system with false claims as they perceive it as taking from the government which is no harm really. That is the mentality.
They see you and I as the fools for not doing and playing the system. A lad I know was telling me recently about working with an electrician from Derry. They've just had their 5th kid and he refuses to allow his partner to name him as the father on the birth certificate as it will affect the benefits that she claims. DLA is known as the Derry Living Allowance but it's not confined to the city. I know in my own town of a retired headmaster, who's wife was a doctor and he was scooting about in a car with a DLA disc for years.
Some people will cheat the system where they see flaws and chinks. That's just the way of it. They se their parents/uncles/aunts and they follow.
As I said about, they laugh at the rest of us for trying to earn a living the honest way.
On a more general point, there's a generation of pampered kids coming through now who have no interest in any form of physical work. Just think how much complaining there is if you ask your own kids to week, dig, mow lawn or complete chores around the house. Completely my own fault by the way but there are completely wrapped in cotton wool by parents now - don't walk anywhere, lifted and laid - get pocket money automatically.
Wouldn't look at picking spuds, summer job in a meat factory, anything that involved manual work. They are a dying breed; the Irish man working outside on a site or farm, 8 hours a day. Bottom line is, in Ireland, North and South, if you want to work, there are literally hundreds of opportunities out there at the minute. The issue, too easy not to.

It's easy to have cheap shots at people at the lower end of the social scale in terms of a drain on our taxation and that is true.

In another breath sweet FA is being done and very little talk in the mainstream media about how the elite cream off government contracts to the tune of millions at a time under various guises and somehow that's more palatable.

Sure we see it here with Owen Paterson "advising" Randox...

The rules are written by the rich for the rich.

So everyone who isn't seen to be working is a lazy hallion? To be honest, you've no idea of a lot of people's circumstances. It's not your business or mine, as to why they work or not.

Quote from: johnnycool on August 05, 2021, 10:07:01 AM
It's easy to have cheap shots at people at the lower end of the social scale in terms of a drain on our taxation and that is true.

In another breath sweet FA is being done and very little talk in the mainstream media about how the elite cream off government contracts to the tune of millions at a time under various guises and somehow that's more palatable.

Sure we see it here with Owen Paterson "advising" Randox...

The rules are written by the rich for the rich.

+1

Quote from: johnnycool on August 05, 2021, 10:07:01 AM
It's easy to have cheap shots at people at the lower end of the social scale in terms of a drain on our taxation and that is true.

In another breath sweet FA is being done and very little talk in the mainstream media about how the elite cream off government contracts to the tune of millions at a time under various guises and somehow that's more palatable.

Sure we see it here with Owen Paterson "advising" Randox...

The rules are written by the rich for the rich.

Agreed.

Quote from: BennyCake on August 05, 2021, 10:28:27 AM
So everyone who isn't seen to be working is a lazy hallion? To be honest, you've no idea of a lot of people's circumstances. It's not your business or mine, as to why they work or not.

Obviously theres plenty of people that genuinely can't work for one reason or another, but people shouldn't be allowed to live off benefits and do nothing. I'd sooner give the benefits to someone working a shite job for shite money to help them out.

Looks like we'll have to press for a lot of people  to be  removed to GB in the reunification negotiations  ::)

The North's economy never recovered from the combined effect of deindustrialisation and the Troubles. You can't take a 30 year opt-out from reality and expect things to sort themselves out afterwards. British rule was a disaster in both cases, for Rangers fans as well as Virgin Mary adherents. 

I know of people around where I live who chose not to work and yet have 2 new cars in their driveway and go on two holidays a year with the children. The people in question don't want work as their education/qualifications would lead them to only bring in marginally more than what they get currently for doing nothing. It should be a hardship if you don't work, not an easy ride. There are obviously many benefits available because as far as I know, the dole is only around 100 pound a fortnight (stand to be corrected), therefore if you were the recipient of this amount you surely would be motivated to get work. Madness that alcoholics get DLA  shouldn't happen. Also, am I right in saying that cancer patients don't get DLA? Madness if true. I remember a fella I worked with told me he was made redundant previously, but couldn't get any financial help as his wife worked. I remember how cross I was when my first child didn't get a nursery place as we were in the 4th category of 4 (late Birthday and both parents working). It was infuriating that the unemployed got preference over the employed, especially considering they were free to look after/educate their children yet we had to pay for that luxury.

Do any travellers work ?
Just asking a question,  and I won't be replying to abuse,  it's just a question

Quote from: Dire Ear on August 05, 2021, 12:21:23 PM
Do any travellers work ?
Just asking a question,  and I won't be replying to abuse,  it's just a question

Yes

Quote from: Dire Ear on August 05, 2021, 12:21:23 PM
Do any travellers work ?
Just asking a question,  and I won't be replying to abuse,  it's just a question

Saw a documentary once where one had a job, so yes.

Quote from: Dire Ear on August 05, 2021, 12:21:23 PM
Do any travellers work ?
Just asking a question,  and I won't be replying to abuse,  it's just a question

One power washed my drive, so I suppose that counts.

To add to the above:

A lot of the economically inactive are actually working, but they are working in the black economy or in the cash economy.  Childminders, domestic cleaners etc.  Even hairdressers based at home etc. They mightn't be drawing any benefits as the husband/wife may be working full time, but they are doing this work cash-in-hand. 

A good number of the economically inactive will also be unfit for work as they might not be physically or mentally capable of work.  This mightn't be chronic illness, but could be mild depression, stress, back pain etc. Again, a partner may be working, so there may be no benefits involved.  There will be another cohort that are carers.

Economically inactive covers all manner of issues and it's wrong to generalise.  It's not just a case of people not being arsed working.  Some of them are working, some of them aren't fit to work and some of them are in education.

Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2021, 12:10:07 PM
I know of people around where I live who chose not to work and yet have 2 new cars in their driveway and go on two holidays a year with the children. The people in question don't want work as their education/qualifications would lead them to only bring in marginally more than what they get currently for doing nothing. It should be a hardship if you don't work, not an easy ride. There are obviously many benefits available because as far as I know, the dole is only around 100 pound a fortnight (stand to be corrected), therefore if you were the recipient of this amount you surely would be motivated to get work. Madness that alcoholics get DLA  shouldn't happen. Also, am I right in saying that cancer patients don't get DLA? Madness if true. I remember a fella I worked with told me he was made redundant previously, but couldn't get any financial help as his wife worked. I remember how cross I was when my first child didn't get a nursery place as we were in the 4th category of 4 (late Birthday and both parents working). It was infuriating that the unemployed got preference over the employed, especially considering they were free to look after/educate their children yet we had to pay for that luxury.

It's the doors it opens / ancillary things that make a life on benefits a career, Free School Meals, free Dental care, help with Health Care costs not covered by NHS, Motability cars, Nursery & Primary School places, partners claiming Carers Allowance for each other.

Anyone can apply for DLA, working or not. Your mate likely made a balls of the A/F as that is an art in itself - with some ex Civil Servants having a lucrative by line in filling them in!

The system is flawed and needs a whole new look at it. How do you encourage someone to work when the benefits they get will pay more than the job they apply for?

Look at housing, on benefits you can get a free house, why would you want to get a job and lose the chance of getting a free house?

Schools, free dinners, why would you give up another free service if you have 4 kids at school

Cars, if entitled to getting a DLA car for your granny, who hasn't left the house in 20 years and you are the named driver that be another handy service you'd be giving up

Add in the DLA payments, the PIPS and then the dole, one parent family and credit thingy you'd be nuts to actually go out and work. One guy was telling me he'd need a job paying £60,000 a year to get what he gets but he's actually have to work for that and would miss the pub and bookies every day.

That being said I can't wait to pay for my own nursing home beside the guy that gets it for free and lose all my savings on it, that's the real clincher

Though to add to that, without the social services for the real people that need it this place would be in a worse position

Good article here on Economic Inactivity North and South pre-Covid. It's horrid high across the whole island, slightly worse in North.
https://www.nerinstitute.net/blog/economic-inactivity-all-island-problem

Tax avoidance by big businesses and the rich costs all exchequers across the world infinitely more that social welfare.

Quote from: bennydorano on August 05, 2021, 02:41:20 PM
Tax avoidance by big businesses and the rich costs all exchequers across the world infinitely more that social welfare.

Neither excuses the other.

Quote from: LeoMc on August 05, 2021, 03:08:24 PM

Quote from: bennydorano on August 05, 2021, 02:41:20 PM
Tax avoidance by big businesses and the rich costs all exchequers across the world infinitely more that social welfare.

Neither excuses the other.

Correct.

But it does direct you towards which one you should be following up on if you wanted to balance the books.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58100957.amp

Quote from: BennyCake on August 05, 2021, 10:28:27 AM
So everyone who isn't seen to be working is a lazy hallion? To be honest, you've no idea of a lot of people's circumstances. It's not your business or mine, as to why they work or not.

Don't think there is one person on here who said that. Plenty of people can't work and the benefit system should work for them, it shouldn't be comfortable for people who choose not to work.

Quote from: seafoid on August 05, 2021, 05:21:28 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58100957.amp

That's a pretty disturbing article about the cost of healthy food versus processed crap and unfortunately the reality of life if you are low income.  I would see it when I do the groceries,  half of the weekly spend is in the fruit and veg department. We are lucky in that both the wife and I  have decent jobs and the price of food isnt the primary consideration so we try to buy healthy for the kids (for very little thanks!) but it cant be easy when you are looking at 20 bags of crisps costing the same as 6 apples.

The major issue I have with some of the people on benefits is the fact they have so much disposable income. As was mentioned above, flash cars, holidays etc. While I know that in certain cases some of that income may not be "legitimate", what if benefits was in some way controlled so that you can only spend it for necessities (so no alcohol, cigarettes, dining out, pub drinks, Sky payments etc)  I know its not practical in reality and you would need to work out how you dont penalise the genuine claimants but I wonder would you see a different number if it was not landing in their accounts as cash.

Quote from: seafoid on August 05, 2021, 05:21:28 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58100957.amp

I'm not having this notion that unhealthy food is more expensive than healthy food. Takeaways are dear. Cooking at home is not. You can make a healthy home cooked meal for a few pound a head. Onions, carrots, spuds, these things are available in the big supermarkets for pennies.
Also can't see anywhere where a 24 pack of crisps (about £4) costs less than a punnet of grapes (£1-2)

As an example this evening, my wife is out for dinner, I made a curry from scratch for myself. It probably cost about 4 quid and took 45mins. Cheaper than a Chinese, chippy, etc.

Quote from: TabClear on August 05, 2021, 07:05:13 PM

Quote from: seafoid on August 05, 2021, 05:21:28 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58100957.amp

That's a pretty disturbing article about the cost of healthy food versus processed crap and unfortunately the reality of life if you are low income.  I would see it when I do the groceries,  half of the weekly spend is in the fruit and veg department. We are lucky in that both the wife and I  have decent jobs and the price of food isnt the primary consideration so we try to buy healthy for the kids (for very little thanks!) but it cant be easy when you are looking at 20 bags of crisps costing the same as 6 apples.

The major issue I have with some of the people on benefits is the fact they have so much disposable income. As was mentioned above, flash cars, holidays etc. While I know that in certain cases some of that income may not be "legitimate", what if benefits was in some way controlled so that you can only spend it for necessities (so no alcohol, cigarettes, dining out, pub drinks, Sky payments etc)  I know its not practical in reality and you would need to work out how you dont penalise the genuine claimants but I wonder would you see a different number if it was not landing in their accounts as cash.

Jesus Christ man, allow people the odd drink, mars bar or takeaway. It's not Guantanamo Bay!

People are struggling every day right under our noses, mentally physically and financially. If they didn't have the odd wee treat, the odd escape, what the feck would life amount to?

Quote from: RedHand88 on August 05, 2021, 07:47:39 PM

Quote from: seafoid on August 05, 2021, 05:21:28 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58100957.amp

I'm not having this notion that unhealthy food is more expensive than healthy food. Takeaways are dear. Cooking at home is not. You can make a healthy home cooked meal for a few pound a head. Onions, carrots, spuds, these things are available in the big supermarkets for pennies.
Also can't see anywhere where a 24 pack of crisps (about £4) costs less than a punnet of grapes (£1-2)

As an example this evening, my wife is out for dinner, I made a curry from scratch for myself. It probably cost about 4 quid and took 45mins. Cheaper than a Chinese, chippy, etc.

Ignorance is expensive

Jesus we have some levels of perfection in here.  Inter generational poverty is directly linked with inter generational underachieving at education, linked closely to crime and generally associated with people living in dire circumstances. Of course you'll have spots where people are 'milking' the system but I recall a few years when I was helping out doing some work for the Citizens Advice and it opened my eyes. It's estimated that no more that 6-7 % of welfare claims are dubious, and that's at its worst. Yes there are people who take liberties but having visited clients over the years in parts of Belfast, Antrim, and the surrounding areas around Lurgan I can guarantee you that no one one here lives as poorly as most people on benefits. Cardboard for carpets, plastic over windows, living off food banks, go and walk in their shoes and see how you get on.....

Quote from: seafoid on August 05, 2021, 08:34:45 PM

Quote from: RedHand88 on August 05, 2021, 07:47:39 PM

Quote from: seafoid on August 05, 2021, 05:21:28 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58100957.amp

I'm not having this notion that unhealthy food is more expensive than healthy food. Takeaways are dear. Cooking at home is not. You can make a healthy home cooked meal for a few pound a head. Onions, carrots, spuds, these things are available in the big supermarkets for pennies.
Also can't see anywhere where a 24 pack of crisps (about £4) costs less than a punnet of grapes (£1-2)

As an example this evening, my wife is out for dinner, I made a curry from scratch for myself. It probably cost about 4 quid and took 45mins. Cheaper than a Chinese, chippy, etc.

Ignorance is expensive

That's very true. A big problem is people not knowing how to do something basic like cook a home made meal. This should be more of a priority in schools than say, Pythagoras theorem. A few people may use Pythagoras theorem in their lifetime, but everybody will need to cook.

How to eat well for less is a great show on BBC which addresses this. They go into houses who are spending a few hundred pound a week on crisps and cake and show them how to prepare meals themselves. Savings usually equate enough for a luxury holiday over the year.

Quote from: BennyCake on August 05, 2021, 08:28:58 PM

Quote from: TabClear on August 05, 2021, 07:05:13 PM

Quote from: seafoid on August 05, 2021, 05:21:28 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58100957.amp

That's a pretty disturbing article about the cost of healthy food versus processed crap and unfortunately the reality of life if you are low income.  I would see it when I do the groceries,  half of the weekly spend is in the fruit and veg department. We are lucky in that both the wife and I  have decent jobs and the price of food isnt the primary consideration so we try to buy healthy for the kids (for very little thanks!) but it cant be easy when you are looking at 20 bags of crisps costing the same as 6 apples.

The major issue I have with some of the people on benefits is the fact they have so much disposable income. As was mentioned above, flash cars, holidays etc. While I know that in certain cases some of that income may not be "legitimate", what if benefits was in some way controlled so that you can only spend it for necessities (so no alcohol, cigarettes, dining out, pub drinks, Sky payments etc)  I know its not practical in reality and you would need to work out how you dont penalise the genuine claimants but I wonder would you see a different number if it was not landing in their accounts as cash.

Jesus Christ man, allow people the odd drink, mars bar or takeaway. It's not Guantanamo Bay!

People are struggling every day right under our noses, mentally physically and financially. If they didn't have the odd wee treat, the odd escape, what the feck would life amount to?

Go earn the money to pay for it then....

Quote from: Armagh18 on August 05, 2021, 10:10:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on August 05, 2021, 08:28:58 PM

Quote from: TabClear on August 05, 2021, 07:05:13 PM

Quote from: seafoid on August 05, 2021, 05:21:28 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58100957.amp

That's a pretty disturbing article about the cost of healthy food versus processed crap and unfortunately the reality of life if you are low income.  I would see it when I do the groceries,  half of the weekly spend is in the fruit and veg department. We are lucky in that both the wife and I  have decent jobs and the price of food isnt the primary consideration so we try to buy healthy for the kids (for very little thanks!) but it cant be easy when you are looking at 20 bags of crisps costing the same as 6 apples.

The major issue I have with some of the people on benefits is the fact they have so much disposable income. As was mentioned above, flash cars, holidays etc. While I know that in certain cases some of that income may not be "legitimate", what if benefits was in some way controlled so that you can only spend it for necessities (so no alcohol, cigarettes, dining out, pub drinks, Sky payments etc)  I know its not practical in reality and you would need to work out how you dont penalise the genuine claimants but I wonder would you see a different number if it was not landing in their accounts as cash.

Jesus Christ man, allow people the odd drink, mars bar or takeaway. It's not Guantanamo Bay!

People are struggling every day right under our noses, mentally physically and financially. If they didn't have the odd wee treat, the odd escape, what the feck would life amount to?

Go earn the money to pay for it then....

Was thinking the exact same.

Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 05, 2021, 10:42:56 PM
Only fools and horses work.

If it's as good as you say, jack the job in tomorrow and join them.

It's some example to be setting to the weans in the house. Any fit and able man with children that does not work should be ashamed of himself

Seafoid's data above does show that in the 26 counties total employment did rise in Celtic Tiger when jobs were readily available and pay was increased. But of course others in similar circumstances did not bother availing of these jobs, when half of Poland was coming here to avail of them.
The message needs to go out that if you have problems then we as a society will help out but choosing to sit on your arse is not acceptable. Our model should be Scandinavian countries, they have generous benefits, but also active measures to get people off those benefits and into doing something useful.

Quote from: johnnycool on August 05, 2021, 10:07:01 AM
It's easy to have cheap shots at people at the lower end of the social scale in terms of a drain on our taxation and that is true.

In another breath sweet FA is being done and very little talk in the mainstream media about how the elite cream off government contracts to the tune of millions at a time under various guises and somehow that's more palatable.

Sure we see it here with Owen Paterson "advising" Randox...

The rules are written by the rich for the rich.

Definitely. Kevin Bridges made a good point - all these benefits go on booze and fags - both taxed to the dick...

Quote from: general_lee on August 06, 2021, 12:21:44 AM

Quote from: johnnycool on August 05, 2021, 10:07:01 AM
It's easy to have cheap shots at people at the lower end of the social scale in terms of a drain on our taxation and that is true.

In another breath sweet FA is being done and very little talk in the mainstream media about how the elite cream off government contracts to the tune of millions at a time under various guises and somehow that's more palatable.

Sure we see it here with Owen Paterson "advising" Randox...

The rules are written by the rich for the rich.

Definitely. Kevin Bridges made a good point - all these benefits go on booze and fags - both taxed to the dick...

Because they're very unhealthy and people should be discouraged from using them.
High end champers is heavily taxed too.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2021, 08:40:30 PM
Jesus we have some levels of perfection in here.  Inter generational poverty is directly linked with inter generational underachieving at education, linked closely to crime and generally associated with people living in dire circumstances. Of course you'll have spots where people are 'milking' the system but I recall a few years when I was helping out doing some work for the Citizens Advice and it opened my eyes. It's estimated that no more that 6-7 % of welfare claims are dubious, and that's at its worst. Yes there are people who take liberties but having visited clients over the years in parts of Belfast, Antrim, and the surrounding areas around Lurgan I can guarantee you that no one one here lives as poorly as most people on benefits. Cardboard for carpets, plastic over windows, living off food banks, go and walk in their shoes and see how you get on.....

UK benefit levels are very low.
The UK also has a lot of prejudice against the poor. You can feel.it in England.
It's not as strong in Ireland.

I used to help out in a homeless shelter in London.. English service users woukd tell you that they were scum and that their parents were.  The Irish ones would talk about someone in the family who did well.

NI has the UK system.

Quote from: seafoid on August 06, 2021, 07:57:02 AM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2021, 08:40:30 PM
Jesus we have some levels of perfection in here.  Inter generational poverty is directly linked with inter generational underachieving at education, linked closely to crime and generally associated with people living in dire circumstances. Of course you'll have spots where people are 'milking' the system but I recall a few years when I was helping out doing some work for the Citizens Advice and it opened my eyes. It's estimated that no more that 6-7 % of welfare claims are dubious, and that's at its worst. Yes there are people who take liberties but having visited clients over the years in parts of Belfast, Antrim, and the surrounding areas around Lurgan I can guarantee you that no one one here lives as poorly as most people on benefits. Cardboard for carpets, plastic over windows, living off food banks, go and walk in their shoes and see how you get on.....

UK benefit levels are very low.
The UK also has a lot of prejudice against the poor. You can feel.it in England.
It's not as strong in Ireland.

I used to help out in a homeless shelter in London.. English service users woukd tell you that they were scum and that their parents were.  The Irish ones would talk about someone in the family who did well.

NI has the UK system.

Are they ? How much do you think they should be ? £250ish per month per child on Universal Credit isn't very low in my opinion

Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 05, 2021, 10:42:56 PM
Only fools and horses work.

If it's as good as you say, jack the job in tomorrow and join them.

What self respecting man could sit on his arse all day and live off benefits?

Quote from: Armagh18 on August 06, 2021, 09:07:47 AM

Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 05, 2021, 10:42:56 PM
Only fools and horses work.

If it's as good as you say, jack the job in tomorrow and join them.

What self respecting man could sit on his arse all day and live off benefits?

One who realises that if he takes a minimum wage job on zero hours contracts that his kids won't get school meals.

Quote from: johnnycool on August 06, 2021, 09:18:40 AM

Quote from: Armagh18 on August 06, 2021, 09:07:47 AM

Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 05, 2021, 10:42:56 PM
Only fools and horses work.

If it's as good as you say, jack the job in tomorrow and join them.

What self respecting man could sit on his arse all day and live off benefits?

One who realises that if he takes a minimum wage job on zero hours contracts that his kids won't get school meals.

Depending on his circumstances, his children would still get FSM on Universal Credit. Universal Credit incentivises work more than any other previous benefit but most people commenting on it as if it's the devil don't understand it. It's not perfect by any means but it's no longer a case of if you work you don't get rent paid, FSM etc

Quote from: seafoid on August 06, 2021, 07:57:02 AM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2021, 08:40:30 PM
Jesus we have some levels of perfection in here.  Inter generational poverty is directly linked with inter generational underachieving at education, linked closely to crime and generally associated with people living in dire circumstances. Of course you'll have spots where people are 'milking' the system but I recall a few years when I was helping out doing some work for the Citizens Advice and it opened my eyes. It's estimated that no more that 6-7 % of welfare claims are dubious, and that's at its worst. Yes there are people who take liberties but having visited clients over the years in parts of Belfast, Antrim, and the surrounding areas around Lurgan I can guarantee you that no one one here lives as poorly as most people on benefits. Cardboard for carpets, plastic over windows, living off food banks, go and walk in their shoes and see how you get on.....

UK benefit levels are very low.
The UK also has a lot of prejudice against the poor. You can feel.it in England.
It's not as strong in Ireland.

I used to help out in a homeless shelter in London.. English service users woukd tell you that they were scum and that their parents were.  The Irish ones would talk about someone in the family who did well.

NI has the UK system.

I see enough people floating about who don't work and they seem to be doing ok as they are driving nice cars, have their iPhones, Sky subscription, go out at the weekends, go on holidays,  gym membership and can still pay for a pack of fags at over a tenner a packet. 

Quote from: seafoid on August 06, 2021, 07:57:02 AM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2021, 08:40:30 PM
Jesus we have some levels of perfection in here.  Inter generational poverty is directly linked with inter generational underachieving at education, linked closely to crime and generally associated with people living in dire circumstances. Of course you'll have spots where people are 'milking' the system but I recall a few years when I was helping out doing some work for the Citizens Advice and it opened my eyes. It's estimated that no more that 6-7 % of welfare claims are dubious, and that's at its worst. Yes there are people who take liberties but having visited clients over the years in parts of Belfast, Antrim, and the surrounding areas around Lurgan I can guarantee you that no one one here lives as poorly as most people on benefits. Cardboard for carpets, plastic over windows, living off food banks, go and walk in their shoes and see how you get on.....

UK benefit levels are very low.
The UK also has a lot of prejudice against the poor. You can feel.it in England.
It's not as strong in Ireland.

I used to help out in a homeless shelter in London.. English service users woukd tell you that they were scum and that their parents were.  The Irish ones would talk about someone in the family who did well.

NI has the UK system.

You can feel it on this thread!

The likes of Jeremy Kyle, Benefits Street shows, The Sun etc have helped vilify and degrade people who are single mothers, low income families or surviving on benefits. Yes there are some who play the system (and good luck to them for it), but a hell of a lot are in dire situations, and are certainly not living a lavish lifestyle!

Quote from: seafoid on August 06, 2021, 07:57:02 AM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2021, 08:40:30 PM
Jesus we have some levels of perfection in here.  Inter generational poverty is directly linked with inter generational underachieving at education, linked closely to crime and generally associated with people living in dire circumstances. Of course you'll have spots where people are 'milking' the system but I recall a few years when I was helping out doing some work for the Citizens Advice and it opened my eyes. It's estimated that no more that 6-7 % of welfare claims are dubious, and that's at its worst. Yes there are people who take liberties but having visited clients over the years in parts of Belfast, Antrim, and the surrounding areas around Lurgan I can guarantee you that no one one here lives as poorly as most people on benefits. Cardboard for carpets, plastic over windows, living off food banks, go and walk in their shoes and see how you get on.....

UK benefit levels are very low.
The UK also has a lot of prejudice against the poor. You can feel.it in England.
It's not as strong in Ireland.

I used to help out in a homeless shelter in London.. English service users woukd tell you that they were scum and that their parents were.  The Irish ones would talk about someone in the family who did well.

NI has the UK system.

I still hear people talk about the son/daughter/granddaughter/grandson doing well, the first from their family who went to college and how they 'run' a shop or have their own business, that still happens, its the heartening to hear that.

The problem is the drugs and drink with the ones living in sheltered housing. Certainly in Belfast its the worst I've seen in many a year, I'm not working in Belfast for the past few months but for 5 years before that it was steadily getting worse, more brazen from the 'homeless' with the drinking city center and shooting up on corner streets. Whatever services look after that end of things really needs a looking after.

As for the ones 'sitting' on the dole and getting away with it, I've no time for them TBH, I don't feel its fair for me to pay tax (taxed a lot) for someone to go on holidays through benefits that he/she doesn't deserve.

As for generational unemployment and poorly educated children there are thousands of examples of kids not falling into that trap, gaining employment and doing well for themselves, I'm  very fortunate that my father had a huge work ethic that has rubbed off on all his kids, I know families of course that didn't have that and their paths are different.

In my day you were very lucky to walk into a job or an apprenticeship, today, and I for one know this well having worked third level education through apprenticeships, that a lot of kids are lazy good for nothing, take take take, waste of time.. of course there were some lads that got it, mainly country lads but the Belfast kids on the Falls and Shankill were the hardest to motivate

MR2....I get what you're saying but you know yourself if you go up in pets of west Belfast and east Belfast the level of poverty and sense of desperation is palpable. You are lucky that you had a father who had a strong work ethic but how many of your peers had fathers who were alcoholics, members of paramilitary groups, abused, abusers, or all of the above. What f**king hope is there for their children, and then their children's children? 

We can sit in Ivory towers but we have absolutely no sense of what goes on. Like someone said above if people think it's such an easy life then go and live it.

Bullshit lads, lets call it what it is and be realistic about.

We have all said that when there is a genuine need then that is what the benefits system is for.

This attitude of if someone is playing the system fair play to them, f**k that. We are paying for it, we are the ones working to pay tax for these generations of families to have the same or better standard of living simply because they choose not to work, not to contribute to our society, our schools, our facilities our infrastructure.

How in anyone's mind can that be 'awh fair play to them' they know how to work the system, no the attitude needs to change completely. The benefits system should be there to support people into work and not incentivise them sitting at home.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 06, 2021, 10:55:49 AM
MR2....I get what you're saying but you know yourself if you go up in pets of west Belfast and east Belfast the level of poverty and sense of desperation is palpable. You are lucky that you had a father who had a strong work ethic but how many of your peers had fathers who were alcoholics, members of paramilitary groups, abused, abusers, or all of the above. What f**king hope is there for their children, and then their children's children? 

We can sit in Ivory towers but we have absolutely no sense of what goes on. Like someone said above if people think it's such an easy life then go and live it.

I know and I went to the local primary and secondary school, on the Falls, I know these families well, it's horrible, my beef isn't with them so much, its the very able and clever people who work the system to suit their lives, if they used half of their 'cleverness' in the working environment then we as a working nation would be in a better position.

In my old employment I did see it up close in these areas and very grateful to be in a good position financially to not have to worry about what my parents had to worry about or ones around me.

If there was a fairer way to give more to ones that need it and less to the ones that are taking the piss then that would be a great solution

NI also has a lot of people suffering from PTSD as a result of the Troubles. There is no such thing as a free war.

Its undoubtedly linked to history and discrimination, no coincidence that most of the poorest areas are in Derry, Strabane and some parts of Belfast.
The troubles are over and a lot of the discrimination has been addressed(the west of the Bann issue needs addressed however) but the legacy of substance abuse etc is now into a third generation, we have for the first time families in which the grandparents and grandchildren use drugs. Very difficult to break that cycle- its an underclass, not a working class

I have issues with anyone milking the system but the majority of people on benefits are not doing so and that's why the programs like Jeremy Kyle and the Benfits Cheat programs bust my balls. They have demonised a whole grouping.

Someone mentioned Travellers. In my experience they rarely sign on for benefits as that creates a record on the system for them and they don't like that. Settled Travellers would be different though but generally they work hard

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 06, 2021, 12:02:53 PM
I have issues with anyone milking the system but the majority of people on benefits are not doing so and that's why the programs like Jeremy Kyle and the Benfits Cheat programs bust my balls. They have demonised a whole grouping.

Someone mentioned Travellers. In my experience they rarely sign on for benefits as that creates a record on the system for them and they don't like that. Settled Travellers would be different though but generally they work hard

Probably everyones experiences are different but anyone I know claiming benefits could and should be working. I think the system should be weighted that people who take a shitty minimum wage job get the help out in terms of free school meals and stuff like that. No one should be getting more from benefits than someone who works.

As for travellers, don't think they're relevant because not too many would be claiming benefits like you say. Again personal experience only, plenty are decent people and work hard but plenty live up to the negative stereotypes as well.

FFS lads there's more outrage here about families getting an extra £250 a month than the Tories giving your tax money to their mates or the likes of FB/GOOGLE/AMAZON dodging tax like it's only for fools to pay!

It's like Boris telling us Climate change is our fault for rinsing our dishes before we put them in the dishwasher when BP and Shell can do whatever they like and get incentivised for it!!

NI doesn't have a proper economic model . Economic activity is insufficient to pay the bills.  That's why the funding from London is so significant. An awful lot of talent is either wasted or emigrates.
This is another problem with being part of the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlGmYetiCjA

Quote from: screenexile on August 06, 2021, 12:19:31 PM
FFS lads there's more outrage here about families getting an extra £250 a month than the Tories giving your tax money to their mates or the likes of FB/GOOGLE/AMAZON dodging tax like it's only for fools to pay!

It's like Boris telling us Climate change is our fault for rinsing our dishes before we put them in the dishwasher when BP and Shell can do whatever they like and get incentivised for it!!

That's not what the OP started a thread on

Quote from: screenexile on August 06, 2021, 12:19:31 PM
FFS lads there's more outrage here about families getting an extra £250 a month than the Tories giving your tax money to their mates or the likes of FB/GOOGLE/AMAZON dodging tax like it's only for fools to pay!

It's like Boris telling us Climate change is our fault for rinsing our dishes before we put them in the dishwasher when BP and Shell can do whatever they like and get incentivised for it!!

These things are not mutually exclusive.
Yes tax all those companies in a fair and honest manner.

But the attitude is the same as these ones working the benefits system, working is for fools.

Quote from: screenexile on August 06, 2021, 12:19:31 PM
FFS lads there's more outrage here about families getting an extra £250 a month than the Tories giving your tax money to their mates or the likes of FB/GOOGLE/AMAZON dodging tax like it's only for fools to pay!

It's like Boris telling us Climate change is our fault for rinsing our dishes before we put them in the dishwasher when BP and Shell can do whatever they like and get incentivised for it!!

Start a thread about it and talk all you want. That's not what this thread is about. It is possible to outraged at both those things.
Amazon avoiding tax is not an excuse for benefit cheats.

Some countries have a benefit system where the benefits for not working have a set time period. Be interesting to see how many would find work when the benefits stop. In my opinion someone who has worked and paid into the system should receive more than someone who has never worked

Quote from: Kidder81 on August 06, 2021, 01:08:32 PM
Some countries have a benefit system where the benefits for not working have a set time period. Be interesting to see how many would find work when the benefits stop. In my opinion someone who has worked and paid into the system should receive more than someone who has never worked

Good point that was very obvious during the Covid fallout. If you have paid your way for 20 years you should absolutely get more than an equivalent person who has spent 20 years on the bru.

Quote from: NAG1 on August 06, 2021, 11:10:45 AM
Bullshit lads, lets call it what it is and be realistic about.

We have all said that when there is a genuine need then that is what the benefits system is for.

This attitude of if someone is playing the system fair play to them, f**k that. We are paying for it, we are the ones working to pay tax for these generations of families to have the same or better standard of living simply because they choose not to work, not to contribute to our society, our schools, our facilities our infrastructure.

How in anyone's mind can that be 'awh fair play to them' they know how to work the system, no the attitude needs to change completely. The benefits system should be there to support people into work and not incentivise them sitting at home.

This thing about my tax money pays for all this, taking the moral high ground is bullshit. If there was a box you could tick every year, where you would pay absolutely no tax, you'd tick it in a heartbeat.

Nobody wants to pay tax, and if everyone could get away with it, everyone of us would all pay none. Would that not be 'playing the system' too? Would that be any different to someone claiming benefits?

Quote from: Kidder81 on August 06, 2021, 01:08:32 PM
Some countries have a benefit system where the benefits for not working have a set time period. Be interesting to see how many would find work when the benefits stop. In my opinion someone who has worked and paid into the system should receive more than someone who has never worked

In what way?

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 01:24:22 PM

Quote from: NAG1 on August 06, 2021, 11:10:45 AM
Bullshit lads, lets call it what it is and be realistic about.

We have all said that when there is a genuine need then that is what the benefits system is for.

This attitude of if someone is playing the system fair play to them, f**k that. We are paying for it, we are the ones working to pay tax for these generations of families to have the same or better standard of living simply because they choose not to work, not to contribute to our society, our schools, our facilities our infrastructure.

How in anyone's mind can that be 'awh fair play to them' they know how to work the system, no the attitude needs to change completely. The benefits system should be there to support people into work and not incentivise them sitting at home.

This thing about my tax money pays for all this, taking the moral high ground is bullshit. If there was a box you could tick every year, where you would pay absolutely no tax, you'd tick it in a heartbeat.

Nobody wants to pay tax, and if everyone could get away with it, everyone of us would all pay none. Would that not be 'playing the system' too? Would that be any different to someone claiming benefits?

You are one strange cat. Where does the money come from to keep the North operating? All the gas and oil reserves? People who want something for nothing are the problem.

Quote from: Kidder81 on August 06, 2021, 01:08:32 PM
Some countries have a benefit system where the benefits for not working have a set time period. Be interesting to see how many would find work when the benefits stop. In my opinion someone who has worked and paid into the system should receive more than someone who has never worked

What about carers who look after a severely disabled or mentally ill child/parent/spouse? What about someone who has had to give up working due to illness/injury? Are they less deserving of healthcare costs, school dinners, free dental etc? Are they less deserving of a pension when they reach retirement age?

Quote from: Mike Tyson on August 06, 2021, 01:26:00 PM

Quote from: Kidder81 on August 06, 2021, 01:08:32 PM
Some countries have a benefit system where the benefits for not working have a set time period. Be interesting to see how many would find work when the benefits stop. In my opinion someone who has worked and paid into the system should receive more than someone who has never worked

In what way?

In some countries,  if you had say 10 years  record of full employment, tax fully compliant etc, if you were made unemployed you might get 80% of your salary as your social welfare payment for the first 6 months.

Then it might drop to 70% and so on. It probably is a fairer system, although like everything else im sure it can be abused.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 06, 2021, 01:28:42 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 01:24:22 PM

Quote from: NAG1 on August 06, 2021, 11:10:45 AM
Bullshit lads, lets call it what it is and be realistic about.

We have all said that when there is a genuine need then that is what the benefits system is for.

This attitude of if someone is playing the system fair play to them, f**k that. We are paying for it, we are the ones working to pay tax for these generations of families to have the same or better standard of living simply because they choose not to work, not to contribute to our society, our schools, our facilities our infrastructure.

How in anyone's mind can that be 'awh fair play to them' they know how to work the system, no the attitude needs to change completely. The benefits system should be there to support people into work and not incentivise them sitting at home.

This thing about my tax money pays for all this, taking the moral high ground is bullshit. If there was a box you could tick every year, where you would pay absolutely no tax, you'd tick it in a heartbeat.

Nobody wants to pay tax, and if everyone could get away with it, everyone of us would all pay none. Would that not be 'playing the system' too? Would that be any different to someone claiming benefits?

You are one strange cat. Where does the money come from to keep the North operating? All the gas and oil reserves? People who want something for nothing are the problem.

I know the place has to keep running and taxes are a part of that.

But let's say you pay £50 a week tax. Are you saying if it was handed back to you every Friday, you'd say 'no no, Stormont needs that 50 quid'? Would you balls. You'd think, f**k Stormont! That'll pay the electric bill and a few beers tonight, thank you very much!

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 01:40:14 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 06, 2021, 01:28:42 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 01:24:22 PM

Quote from: NAG1 on August 06, 2021, 11:10:45 AM
Bullshit lads, lets call it what it is and be realistic about.

We have all said that when there is a genuine need then that is what the benefits system is for.

This attitude of if someone is playing the system fair play to them, f**k that. We are paying for it, we are the ones working to pay tax for these generations of families to have the same or better standard of living simply because they choose not to work, not to contribute to our society, our schools, our facilities our infrastructure.

How in anyone's mind can that be 'awh fair play to them' they know how to work the system, no the attitude needs to change completely. The benefits system should be there to support people into work and not incentivise them sitting at home.

This thing about my tax money pays for all this, taking the moral high ground is bullshit. If there was a box you could tick every year, where you would pay absolutely no tax, you'd tick it in a heartbeat.

Nobody wants to pay tax, and if everyone could get away with it, everyone of us would all pay none. Would that not be 'playing the system' too? Would that be any different to someone claiming benefits?

You are one strange cat. Where does the money come from to keep the North operating? All the gas and oil reserves? People who want something for nothing are the problem.

I know the place has to keep running and taxes are a part of that.

But let's say you pay £50 a week tax. Are you saying if it was handed back to you every Friday, you'd say 'no no, Stormont needs that 50 quid'? Would you balls. You'd think, f**k Stormont! That'll pay the electric bill and a few beers tonight, thank you very much!

Say you were asked, "do you want that £50 you paid in taxes back or do you want to be able to use the NHS?"

Would you take it to have a beer then?

Quote from: johnnycool on August 06, 2021, 02:18:25 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 01:40:14 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 06, 2021, 01:28:42 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 01:24:22 PM

Quote from: NAG1 on August 06, 2021, 11:10:45 AM
Bullshit lads, lets call it what it is and be realistic about.

We have all said that when there is a genuine need then that is what the benefits system is for.

This attitude of if someone is playing the system fair play to them, f**k that. We are paying for it, we are the ones working to pay tax for these generations of families to have the same or better standard of living simply because they choose not to work, not to contribute to our society, our schools, our facilities our infrastructure.

How in anyone's mind can that be 'awh fair play to them' they know how to work the system, no the attitude needs to change completely. The benefits system should be there to support people into work and not incentivise them sitting at home.

This thing about my tax money pays for all this, taking the moral high ground is bullshit. If there was a box you could tick every year, where you would pay absolutely no tax, you'd tick it in a heartbeat.

Nobody wants to pay tax, and if everyone could get away with it, everyone of us would all pay none. Would that not be 'playing the system' too? Would that be any different to someone claiming benefits?

You are one strange cat. Where does the money come from to keep the North operating? All the gas and oil reserves? People who want something for nothing are the problem.

I know the place has to keep running and taxes are a part of that.

But let's say you pay £50 a week tax. Are you saying if it was handed back to you every Friday, you'd say 'no no, Stormont needs that 50 quid'? Would you balls. You'd think, f**k Stormont! That'll pay the electric bill and a few beers tonight, thank you very much!

Say you were asked, "do you want that £50 you paid in taxes back or do you want to be able to use the NHS?"

Would you take it to have a beer then?

Anyone with private health insurance probably would.

Quote from: ardtole on August 06, 2021, 02:29:08 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on August 06, 2021, 02:18:25 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 01:40:14 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 06, 2021, 01:28:42 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 01:24:22 PM

Quote from: NAG1 on August 06, 2021, 11:10:45 AM
Bullshit lads, lets call it what it is and be realistic about.

We have all said that when there is a genuine need then that is what the benefits system is for.

This attitude of if someone is playing the system fair play to them, f**k that. We are paying for it, we are the ones working to pay tax for these generations of families to have the same or better standard of living simply because they choose not to work, not to contribute to our society, our schools, our facilities our infrastructure.

How in anyone's mind can that be 'awh fair play to them' they know how to work the system, no the attitude needs to change completely. The benefits system should be there to support people into work and not incentivise them sitting at home.

This thing about my tax money pays for all this, taking the moral high ground is bullshit. If there was a box you could tick every year, where you would pay absolutely no tax, you'd tick it in a heartbeat.

Nobody wants to pay tax, and if everyone could get away with it, everyone of us would all pay none. Would that not be 'playing the system' too? Would that be any different to someone claiming benefits?

You are one strange cat. Where does the money come from to keep the North operating? All the gas and oil reserves? People who want something for nothing are the problem.

I know the place has to keep running and taxes are a part of that.

But let's say you pay £50 a week tax. Are you saying if it was handed back to you every Friday, you'd say 'no no, Stormont needs that 50 quid'? Would you balls. You'd think, f**k Stormont! That'll pay the electric bill and a few beers tonight, thank you very much!

Say you were asked, "do you want that £50 you paid in taxes back or do you want to be able to use the NHS?"

Would you take it to have a beer then?

Anyone with private health insurance probably would.

I'd still be checking the small print on my private health insurance just before accepting that £50 back.

But if the Torys keep going the way they're going we're going down that path and quick.

Economic inactivity is a much wider issue than benefits cheats, but I guess it was the poll question at the top of the page that sent all of you off on one. 

Few things for you to consider:
The economically inactive includes housewives or stay-at-home mums.  It includes lots of people that get no benefits because a partner is working.  Maybe they are unwell or maybe they are 100% fine and choose not to work.  They might be in education.  There is a good chance that they are working in a cash in hand job. 

For all the talk about benefits cheats and the big corporations who pay no tax, there are plenty more who bend the rules, particularly in the cash economy where there is very little tax paid.  Unless you are PAYE there is a good chance you are bending the rules to some degree, maybe not declaring any or all of your income. 

But even if you are a PAYE worker, ask yourself have you ever asked for a cash quote from a tradesman in the knowledge that it would be a cheaper job. 

There are very few people whiter than white.  Plenty of people have a great work ethic, but it doesn't mean that they are pulling their weight in every way.

PS - I'm not judging anyone here - I just think he without sin cast the first stone

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 01:32:16 PM

Quote from: Kidder81 on August 06, 2021, 01:08:32 PM
Some countries have a benefit system where the benefits for not working have a set time period. Be interesting to see how many would find work when the benefits stop. In my opinion someone who has worked and paid into the system should receive more than someone who has never worked

What about carers who look after a severely disabled or mentally ill child/parent/spouse? What about someone who has had to give up working due to illness/injury? Are they less deserving of healthcare costs, school dinners, free dental etc? Are they less deserving of a pension when they reach retirement age?

But who is saying those people arent deserving of a helping hand? Anyone here has only said people who could work but chose to lie on their arse don't deserve benefits.

Quote from: APM
Few things for you to consider:
The economically inactive includes housewives or stay-at-home mums.  It includes lots of people that get no benefits because a partner is working.  Maybe they are unwell or maybe they are 100% fine and choose not to work.  They might be in education.

Some economic inactivity represents good times. In the ROI especially quite a lot of people are in education. I know several people that have taken early retirement, having worked hard for 40 years. People act as carers or have illness themselves. So we have to be quite clear on who exactly we are talking about.

Quote from: APM on August 06, 2021, 03:10:21 PM
There are very few people whiter than white.  Plenty of people have a great work ethic, but it doesn't mean that they are pulling their weight in every way.

PS - I'm not judging anyone here - I just think he without sin cast the first stone

This "without guilt" is too easy. To take a GAA analogy, should we not be allowed comment on someone sent off or some absolute dirt on the field because we may have got tick in the book from time to time ourselves? There is also a matter of degree, if someone does 130Kmh on the motorway are they then unable to criticise someone driving at 80kmh in a housing estate?

Quote from: Armagh18 on August 06, 2021, 04:08:10 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 01:32:16 PM

Quote from: Kidder81 on August 06, 2021, 01:08:32 PM
Some countries have a benefit system where the benefits for not working have a set time period. Be interesting to see how many would find work when the benefits stop. In my opinion someone who has worked and paid into the system should receive more than someone who has never worked

What about carers who look after a severely disabled or mentally ill child/parent/spouse? What about someone who has had to give up working due to illness/injury? Are they less deserving of healthcare costs, school dinners, free dental etc? Are they less deserving of a pension when they reach retirement age?

But who is saying those people arent deserving of a helping hand? Anyone here has only said people who could work but chose to lie on their arse don't deserve benefits.

It was just the general tone I didn't like. nobody knows what somebody's situation is. They might seem fit and able, but many issues aren't so clear cut.

Also, if you like your job, and all that it entails, then that's great, you're lucky. And if you're financially  better off because of it, and can provide for your family, buy nice things, even better. If people chose not to or aren't able to work, their lives are likely to be less enhanced with material goods, expendable income , eating poorer quality food, good car etc. So, why castigate them? 

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 05:45:49 PM

Quote from: Armagh18 on August 06, 2021, 04:08:10 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 01:32:16 PM

Quote from: Kidder81 on August 06, 2021, 01:08:32 PM
Some countries have a benefit system where the benefits for not working have a set time period. Be interesting to see how many would find work when the benefits stop. In my opinion someone who has worked and paid into the system should receive more than someone who has never worked

What about carers who look after a severely disabled or mentally ill child/parent/spouse? What about someone who has had to give up working due to illness/injury? Are they less deserving of healthcare costs, school dinners, free dental etc? Are they less deserving of a pension when they reach retirement age?

But who is saying those people arent deserving of a helping hand? Anyone here has only said people who could work but chose to lie on their arse don't deserve benefits.

It was just the general tone I didn't like. nobody knows what somebody's situation is. They might seem fit and able, but many issues aren't so clear cut.

Also, if you like your job, and all that it entails, then that's great, you're lucky. And if you're financially  better off because of it, and can provide for your family, buy nice things, even better. If people chose not to or aren't able to work, their lives are likely to be less enhanced with material goods, expendable income , eating poorer quality food, good car etc. So, why castigate them?

Just to reiterate, I do not think anyone on here has said that there should not be a benefit system in place for people who genuinely need it. And I fully appreciate that many people who are deemed "scroungers" or "loafers" have problems that the general public dont see. And for the record, I would have no issue with the benefit system being such that these genuine claimants do enjoy a standard of life comparable to a "normal" standard of living. Most of them would love to be able to go out and earn a living but cant because of their situation (be it care responsibilities, disabilities etc). They absolutely should be supported.

However I have absolutely no issue with castigating someone who chooses to  do nothing and expect things to be handed to them. They are the using resources that mean the genuine cases above cant get the support they should as there is a finite pot of money available for all claimants.

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 05:45:49 PM

Quote from: Armagh18 on August 06, 2021, 04:08:10 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2021, 01:32:16 PM

Quote from: Kidder81 on August 06, 2021, 01:08:32 PM
Some countries have a benefit system where the benefits for not working have a set time period. Be interesting to see how many would find work when the benefits stop. In my opinion someone who has worked and paid into the system should receive more than someone who has never worked

What about carers who look after a severely disabled or mentally ill child/parent/spouse? What about someone who has had to give up working due to illness/injury? Are they less deserving of healthcare costs, school dinners, free dental etc? Are they less deserving of a pension when they reach retirement age?

But who is saying those people arent deserving of a helping hand? Anyone here has only said people who could work but chose to lie on their arse don't deserve benefits.

It was just the general tone I didn't like. nobody knows what somebody's situation is. They might seem fit and able, but many issues aren't so clear cut.

Also, if you like your job, and all that it entails, then that's great, you're lucky. And if you're financially  better off because of it, and can provide for your family, buy nice things, even better. If people chose not to or aren't able to work, their lives are likely to be less enhanced with material goods, expendable income , eating poorer quality food, good car etc. So, why castigate them?

Nobody has said that all people on benefits are lazy. That's been clear from the start, and I was careful in my wording of the poll and the OP to make it clear.

As for castigating them, I'm more interested in why people are making this choice not to work. I think we should all be able to agree that it's not a good thing without pointing fingers or personalizing it.

The kind of questions I want to ask are about how it could be discouraged. What are the incentives that people are responding to? Does it make economic sense for them not to work, and if so why? Instead of it being a case of benefits being too generous, is it a case of the minimum wage being too low?  Is there a cultural problem where low wage or blue collar work isn't respected enough? Are there mobility problems like car dependency and poor urban planning that make it hard for people to physically travel to a job from where they live?

I think that's a more productive type of conversation. I take your point that making statements like "they are just bad people" is unhelpful. That's like giving out about antisocial behavior or travellers making a mess. We all know it's a problem, but the solutions are a bit more complex than saying "they need to stop it."

Another thing.

I live in a country with a very weak social safety net. Not far from me are massive homeless encampments. The land in front of the airport, on the approach to the runway where you can't build anything, has become one big shantytown full of camper vans and makeshift shelters. There's a park with a beautiful river trail running through it (I used to commute on it) that has become another shantytown, with shelters becoming bigger, more elaborate, and more numerous. There's another small park closer to the middle of town that has nice monuments and surrounded by beautiful buildings and luxury apartments, but the park is completely overrun by homeless people lying on the ground and sitting around at all hours of the day and night, making it unusable by families. The light rail system is a homeless shelter on wheels because of scant fare enforcement. The longest bus route in the county is called the "Hotel 22" because homeless people use it at night to go across town and back, getting a couple of hours of sleep each way.

I see every day what it's like when the social safety net is not good enough, so NI's problems are a lot smaller, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be worked on too. People living on benefits is a smaller problem than mass homelessness, but it's still a problem that's worth addressing. There's a happy medium somewhere between leaving people to their own devices on the street and paying them to sit at home watching Sky TV all day.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 06, 2021, 07:08:26 PM
The kind of questions I want to ask are about how it could be discouraged. What are the incentives that people are responding to? Does it make economic sense for them not to work, and if so why?

The cost of childcare is at least one element that discourages people from working. I'm sure many on here pay full time childcare for one or more children so know how much it costs (I'm about to enter that world).  Completely disproportionate to salaries here. I can totally understand why people decide that the cost of childcare is just too high for them to financially benefit from working in paid employment, at least til school starts.

Quote from: Rois on August 06, 2021, 07:35:17 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 06, 2021, 07:08:26 PM
The kind of questions I want to ask are about how it could be discouraged. What are the incentives that people are responding to? Does it make economic sense for them not to work, and if so why?

The cost of childcare is at least one element that discourages people from working. I'm sure many on here pay full time childcare for one or more children so know how much it costs (I'm about to enter that world).  Completely disproportionate to salaries here. I can totally understand why people decide that the cost of childcare is just too high for them to financially benefit from working in paid employment, at least til school starts.

Universal Credit pays up to 85% of childcare

Shows how much I know about universal credit.
I know quite a few people who are economically inactive for that reason but probably not claiming benefits.

Quote from: Rois on August 06, 2021, 08:10:56 PM
Shows how much I know about universal credit.
I know quite a few people who are economically inactive for that reason but probably not claiming benefits.

It's a fair point. We had a girl working part time, who had a husband with a good job and as she was having her 3rd child her childcare was on par with if not more than her nett. She said she'd rather stay at home for a few years and rear her own children rather than pay someone to do it. Fair enough.

Quote from: Kidder81 on August 06, 2021, 07:44:19 PM

Quote from: Rois on August 06, 2021, 07:35:17 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 06, 2021, 07:08:26 PM
The kind of questions I want to ask are about how it could be discouraged. What are the incentives that people are responding to? Does it make economic sense for them not to work, and if so why?

The cost of childcare is at least one element that discourages people from working. I'm sure many on here pay full time childcare for one or more children so know how much it costs (I'm about to enter that world).  Completely disproportionate to salaries here. I can totally understand why people decide that the cost of childcare is just too high for them to financially benefit from working in paid employment, at least til school starts.

Universal Credit pays up to 85% of childcare

If you qualify for it. If you have a full time job that doesn't pay a massive amount then in a lot of cases, as Rois said, it makes perfect sense not to work as the cost of childcare can be higher than salary minus travel expenses etc.

Data released today shows the north of Ireland is the only place on earth able bodied men and women who could work refuse.

Quote from: charlieTully on August 06, 2021, 09:35:31 PM
Data released today shows the north of Ireland is the only place on earth able bodied men and women who could work refuse.

Commas can be useful sometimes.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 06, 2021, 07:24:58 PM
Another thing.

I live in a country with a very weak social safety net. Not far from me are massive homeless encampments. The land in front of the airport, on the approach to the runway where you can't build anything, has become one big shantytown full of camper vans and makeshift shelters. There's a park with a beautiful river trail running through it (I used to commute on it) that has become another shantytown, with shelters becoming bigger, more elaborate, and more numerous. There's another small park closer to the middle of town that has nice monuments and surrounded by beautiful buildings and luxury apartments, but the park is completely overrun by homeless people lying on the ground and sitting around at all hours of the day and night, making it unusable by families. The light rail system is a homeless shelter on wheels because of scant fare enforcement. The longest bus route in the county is called the "Hotel 22" because homeless people use it at night to go across town and back, getting a couple of hours of sleep each way.

I see every day what it's like when the social safety net is not good enough, so NI's problems are a lot smaller, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be worked on too. People living on benefits is a smaller problem than mass homelessness, but it's still a problem that's worth addressing. There's a happy medium somewhere between leaving people to their own devices on the street and paying them to sit at home watching Sky TV all day.

Good post
Where do you currently live?

Quote from: Silver hill on August 06, 2021, 11:25:47 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 06, 2021, 07:24:58 PM
Another thing.

I live in a country with a very weak social safety net. Not far from me are massive homeless encampments. The land in front of the airport, on the approach to the runway where you can't build anything, has become one big shantytown full of camper vans and makeshift shelters. There's a park with a beautiful river trail running through it (I used to commute on it) that has become another shantytown, with shelters becoming bigger, more elaborate, and more numerous. There's another small park closer to the middle of town that has nice monuments and surrounded by beautiful buildings and luxury apartments, but the park is completely overrun by homeless people lying on the ground and sitting around at all hours of the day and night, making it unusable by families. The light rail system is a homeless shelter on wheels because of scant fare enforcement. The longest bus route in the county is called the "Hotel 22" because homeless people use it at night to go across town and back, getting a couple of hours of sleep each way.

I see every day what it's like when the social safety net is not good enough, so NI's problems are a lot smaller, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be worked on too. People living on benefits is a smaller problem than mass homelessness, but it's still a problem that's worth addressing. There's a happy medium somewhere between leaving people to their own devices on the street and paying them to sit at home watching Sky TV all day.

Good post
Where do you currently live?

San Jose, California.

The poll results are interesting. Thanks to all who have voted.

Choose wisely in life... grandparents are a wonderful species, they love nothing more to looking after their grandkids, as will I when I retire.

Quote from: Silver hill on August 06, 2021, 11:24:06 PM

Quote from: charlieTully on August 06, 2021, 09:35:31 PM
Data released today shows the north of Ireland is the only place on earth able bodied men and women who could work refuse.

Commas can be useful sometimes.

As are condoms