Just picking up from the locked TG4 thread discussion. A couple of points to add to:
1. Its a surprise Kerry clubs haven't wont the Intermediate and Junior All-Irelands more often given their gerrymandering of the provincial championships - what you'll notice is that in addition to the disproportionate number of titles they have won at these grades they have actually narrowly lost quite a number of finals, they are butchering the Munster intermediate and junior club scene not to mention the latter stages of the All-Ireland.
2. Regarding the novice grade in Kerry - this shouldn't exist. Senior, Intermediate and Junior thats the playing field. They are bookending the championship structure with a top light Senior Championship (only 8 teams for a county with 70+ clubs) and a makey uppey grade at the bottom therefore shoehorning the vast majority into Intermediate and Junior hence the outcomes of disproportionately strong teams coming out of those competitions. When I say disproportionate I mean in respect to a 70+ club county - the competition structure isn't representative of the size of the county.
How about we abolish Kerry !!!
Kerry should be allowed to organise their championship structures whatever way they want and whatever they think works best for their clubs.
However, something needs to be done about who is allowed to represent them in the junior and intermediate championships. The way they do it leads to an unfair advantage. It would be fairer if their senior winners represented them at senior, their junior winners represented them at intermediate and their novice champions (or whatever the second junior championship is called) represent them at junior level.
If you looked at the breakdown of the clubs in the county in terms of numbers this would be a much more similar and fairer reflection to what is done in other counties.
The odd thing about the Munster club is that in Cork you have four grades - senior, premier intermediate, intermediate and junior. The intermediate champions don't actually compete in Munster as the premier intermediate winners go forward and the junior champions naturally enter the Munster junior club. Therefore a Munster junior final such as this year between the Kerry and Cork champs is effectively a meeting of a team that could easily be a strong contender in Kerry's second tier against the winners of Cork's fourth tier.
So would a club like Kilcummin have many players playing in a divisional side in the senior championship? How does that work?
I'd imagine Kevin McCarthy would have been playing in a divisional side? Could a player play in both the senior and intermediate/junior championships in the same year?
Would a starred system work on the AI stage? For example, if you played in a divisional side in the senior championship you couldn't play in the intermediate/junior provincial or AI stage with their club?
Could possibly ruin the divisional approach as I'd imagine most players wouldn't want to rule themselves out of their own clubs potential AI run.
Cork let Divisional and College teams play in their SFC and SHC too.
Quote from: tiempo on March 19, 2019, 09:31:06 AM
Just picking up from the locked TG4 thread discussion. A couple of points to add to:
1. Its a surprise Kerry clubs haven't wont the Intermediate and Junior All-Irelands more often given their gerrymandering of the provincial championships - what you'll notice is that in addition to the disproportionate number of titles they have won at these grades they have actually narrowly lost quite a number of finals, they are butchering the Munster intermediate and junior club scene not to mention the latter stages of the All-Ireland.
2. Regarding the novice grade in Kerry - this shouldn't exist. Senior, Intermediate and Junior thats the playing field. They are bookending the championship structure with a top light Senior Championship (only 8 teams for a county with 70+ clubs) and a makey uppey grade at the bottom therefore shoehorning the vast majority into Intermediate and Junior hence the outcomes of disproportionately strong teams coming out of those competitions. When I say disproportionate I mean in respect to a 70+ club county - the competition structure isn't representative of the size of the county.
There's hardly gerrymandering going on in Kerry for the purpose of winning the junior and intermediate All-Irelands - this system was in place in Kerry for 50 years before there was ever junior or intermediate All-Ireland championships. Using a divisional system means they can't have 16 Senior clubs like might be expected as that would make the divisional sides too weak to have any chance of competing with the club sides.
Saying the Novice c'ship shouldn't exist is a very ignorant statement, this a very important competition for the tiny communities in Kerry, a lot of whom would get trashed if they were forced to play at Junior grade which would see GAA clubs in these tiny communities dwindle.
Lots of counties have this 4th tier Novice or Junior B grade, and there's a provincial and All-Ireland Championship for Novice/Junior B in hurling and football.
Quote from: blanketattack on March 26, 2019, 09:44:48 AM
Quote from: tiempo on March 19, 2019, 09:31:06 AM
Just picking up from the locked TG4 thread discussion. A couple of points to add to:
1. Its a surprise Kerry clubs haven't wont the Intermediate and Junior All-Irelands more often given their gerrymandering of the provincial championships - what you'll notice is that in addition to the disproportionate number of titles they have won at these grades they have actually narrowly lost quite a number of finals, they are butchering the Munster intermediate and junior club scene not to mention the latter stages of the All-Ireland.
2. Regarding the novice grade in Kerry - this shouldn't exist. Senior, Intermediate and Junior thats the playing field. They are bookending the championship structure with a top light Senior Championship (only 8 teams for a county with 70+ clubs) and a makey uppey grade at the bottom therefore shoehorning the vast majority into Intermediate and Junior hence the outcomes of disproportionately strong teams coming out of those competitions. When I say disproportionate I mean in respect to a 70+ club county - the competition structure isn't representative of the size of the county.
There's hardly gerrymandering going on in Kerry for the purpose of winning the junior and intermediate All-Irelands - this system was in place in Kerry for 50 years before there was ever junior or intermediate All-Ireland championships. Using a divisional system means they can't have 16 Senior clubs like might be expected as that would make the divisional sides too weak to have any chance of competing with the club sides.
Saying the Novice c'ship shouldn't exist is a very ignorant statement, this a very important competition for the tiny communities in Kerry, a lot of whom would get trashed if they were forced to play at Junior grade which would see GAA clubs in these tiny communities dwindle.
Lots of counties have this 4th tier Novice or Junior B grade, and there's a provincial and All-Ireland Championship for Novice/Junior B in hurling and football.
I've genuinely never heard of it. How many counties compete at this level?
Quote from: omagh_gael on March 19, 2019, 12:36:20 PM
So would a club like Kilcummin have many players playing in a divisional side in the senior championship? How does that work?
I'd imagine Kevin McCarthy would have been playing in a divisional side? Could a player play in both the senior and intermediate/junior championships in the same year?
Would a starred system work on the AI stage? For example, if you played in a divisional side in the senior championship you couldn't play in the intermediate/junior provincial or AI stage with their club?
Could possibly ruin the divisional approach as I'd imagine most players wouldn't want to rule themselves out of their own clubs potential AI run.
A player will play for a divisional side and for their own club. If a divisional side wins the Kerry senior championship the last non divisional side left in the championship will represent Kerry in the All Ireland series.
Kerry have played in 58 All Ireland finals since 1903 (i.e. 1 every 2 years) I believe the way the championships are set up in Kerry has contributed to this.
Re: AI / Provincial novice / junior B..
Ballymena hurlers went down south to compete in this. I am not sure there is an ulster championship (this was hurling but I'm not familiar with any football version and don't think there is one) so they were competing in , I think, Leinster.
(Antrim has a junior B hurling championship which I presume they won.)
Quote from: Maiden1 on March 26, 2019, 10:16:57 AM
Quote from: omagh_gael on March 19, 2019, 12:36:20 PM
So would a club like Kilcummin have many players playing in a divisional side in the senior championship? How does that work?
I'd imagine Kevin McCarthy would have been playing in a divisional side? Could a player play in both the senior and intermediate/junior championships in the same year?
Would a starred system work on the AI stage? For example, if you played in a divisional side in the senior championship you couldn't play in the intermediate/junior provincial or AI stage with their club?
Could possibly ruin the divisional approach as I'd imagine most players wouldn't want to rule themselves out of their own clubs potential AI run.
A player will play for a divisional side and for their own club. If a divisional side wins the Kerry senior championship the last non divisional side left in the championship will represent Kerry in the All Ireland series.
Kerry have played in 58 All Ireland finals since 1903 (i.e. 1 every 2 years) I believe the way the championships are set up in Kerry has contributed to this.
That's not the system anymore, possibly because of two divisional sides meeting in the final, but for the last 10 years or so, the winner of the club championship (i.e. a different competition to the county championship) will represent Kerry if a diivisonal side wins the County C'ship.
Personally I think they should let the runners up of the County C'ship represent Kerry and only use the club championship in the rare case of two divisional sides in the final.
The Kerry county board are really trying to push the club championship as a meaningful competition even though most clubs would rank it 4th after County C'ship, Divisonal C'ship and County League.
They've even been using the club championship to determine relegation of club teams from the County C'ship.
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 26, 2019, 10:03:07 AM
Quote from: blanketattack on March 26, 2019, 09:44:48 AM
Quote from: tiempo on March 19, 2019, 09:31:06 AM
Just picking up from the locked TG4 thread discussion. A couple of points to add to:
1. Its a surprise Kerry clubs haven't wont the Intermediate and Junior All-Irelands more often given their gerrymandering of the provincial championships - what you'll notice is that in addition to the disproportionate number of titles they have won at these grades they have actually narrowly lost quite a number of finals, they are butchering the Munster intermediate and junior club scene not to mention the latter stages of the All-Ireland.
2. Regarding the novice grade in Kerry - this shouldn't exist. Senior, Intermediate and Junior thats the playing field. They are bookending the championship structure with a top light Senior Championship (only 8 teams for a county with 70+ clubs) and a makey uppey grade at the bottom therefore shoehorning the vast majority into Intermediate and Junior hence the outcomes of disproportionately strong teams coming out of those competitions. When I say disproportionate I mean in respect to a 70+ club county - the competition structure isn't representative of the size of the county.
There's hardly gerrymandering going on in Kerry for the purpose of winning the junior and intermediate All-Irelands - this system was in place in Kerry for 50 years before there was ever junior or intermediate All-Ireland championships. Using a divisional system means they can't have 16 Senior clubs like might be expected as that would make the divisional sides too weak to have any chance of competing with the club sides.
Saying the Novice c'ship shouldn't exist is a very ignorant statement, this a very important competition for the tiny communities in Kerry, a lot of whom would get trashed if they were forced to play at Junior grade which would see GAA clubs in these tiny communities dwindle.
Lots of counties have this 4th tier Novice or Junior B grade, and there's a provincial and All-Ireland Championship for Novice/Junior B in hurling and football.
I've genuinely never heard of it. How many counties compete at this level?
Actually the Junior B Football only goes to Munster level AFAIK, the hurling goes to All-Ireland level. It's run by Knockaderry and Kileedy in Limerick. It's sanctioned by Croke Park and the Munster council though.
The infamous Ballyragget club of Kilkenny were in it a few years. I believe they only hired belly dancers to celebrate their victory then!
Fun facts for 2019 Club Championship in Kerry...additions made to post from locked thread
Na Gaeil club in Tralee are junior, but are in Div 1 of the Kerry County League...both midfielders that started v Roscommon in the league game are from Na Gaeil, Jack Barry and Diarmuid O'Connor;
Senior club Kenmare Shamrocks are in Div 2 and will find it hard to get promoted without county men Sean O'Shea and Stephen O'Brien (one win and one loss in league so far, beat Annascaul and lost to All-Ireland Junior champs Beaufort;
4 intermediate clubs in Div 1 - St. Mary's Cahersiveen, Templenoe, An Ghaeltacht and Spa;
2 intermediate clubs in Div 4 - Laune Rangers (All-Ireland Senior Club winners 1996) and Waterville
Quote from: omagh_gael on March 19, 2019, 12:36:20 PM
So would a club like Kilcummin have many players playing in a divisional side in the senior championship? How does that work?
I'd imagine Kevin McCarthy would have been playing in a divisional side? Could a player play in both the senior and intermediate/junior championships in the same year?
Would a starred system work on the AI stage? For example, if you played in a divisional side in the senior championship you couldn't play in the intermediate/junior provincial or AI stage with their club?
Could possibly ruin the divisional approach as I'd imagine most players wouldn't want to rule themselves out of their own clubs potential AI run.
Kilcummin had about 5 starters on the East Kerry team in 2018. Brendan Kealy in goals and Kevin MCarthy at wing-forward being the best known. The also had the two midfielders and a corner back in the semi-final drawn game with Dingle - I don't have the replay line out.
East Kerry will be a lot weaker in 2019. An Ghaeltacht drop from senior to intermediate in 2019, so West Kerry divisional side will be much stronger. In 2017, when An Ghaeltacht were last intermediate, they provided something like 13 of the starting 15 in West Kerry's last championship game.
The problem is not with Kerry. There's absolutely nothing to stop other counties having only 8 senior clubs if that's what suits their county. Personally I think winning intermediate and junior club All-Ireland's is well down the list of priorities and certainly not why Kerry's system is designed in this fashion. They use it to maximise the meaningful games each player gets. If you're good enough there's a higher level for you to progress to. If you're interested enough there's a level for you to start at and work at improving. If you're a casual player that's catered for too. It's brilliant.
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 27, 2019, 10:15:14 AM
The problem is not with Kerry. There's absolutely nothing to stop other counties having only 8 senior clubs if that's what suits their county. Personally I think winning intermediate and junior club All-Ireland's is well down the list of priorities and certainly not why Kerry's system is designed in this fashion. They use it to maximise the meaningful games each player gets.
Nail on head.
I'd abolish the intermediate and junior club All-Irelands. They are contrived and meaningless competitions that effectively reward strong clubs who get relegated. Cavan Gaels almost got relegated to intermediate in 2016 and the next year ended up getting to the Ulster Senior Club Final. Had they lost their relegation playoff, they would have probably won the All Ireland intermediate in 2017. What good would that have been to anyone?
Cork reviewing their unwieldy system
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/cork-kick-starts-gaa-debate-on-those-hijacked-summers-913558.html
Quote from: Rossfan on March 27, 2019, 11:41:07 AM
Cork reviewing their unwieldy system
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/cork-kick-starts-gaa-debate-on-those-hijacked-summers-913558.html
What? They want to introduce another grade, Senior A?!?
That'll mean Junior is their 5th tier.
Although Cork are hardly at much of a disadvantage of having a team from their 5th tier in the Junior Club championship competing against 3rd tier teams from other counties when you consider that Cork has about 90 Junior clubs.
One county that should look at their system is Tipperary. They've nearly 30 teams in their Senior hurling championship, which gives them little chance in the Intermediate and Junior club All-Ireland series, but even besides that it seems a ridiculously high number anyway.
Quote from: five points on March 27, 2019, 10:28:41 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 27, 2019, 10:15:14 AM
The problem is not with Kerry. There's absolutely nothing to stop other counties having only 8 senior clubs if that's what suits their county. Personally I think winning intermediate and junior club All-Ireland's is well down the list of priorities and certainly not why Kerry's system is designed in this fashion. They use it to maximise the meaningful games each player gets.
Nail on head.
I'd abolish the intermediate and junior club All-Irelands. They are contrived and meaningless competitions that effectively reward strong clubs who get relegated. Cavan Gaels almost got relegated to intermediate in 2016 and the next year ended up getting to the Ulster Senior Club Final. Had they lost their relegation playoff, they would have probably won the All Ireland intermediate in 2017. What good would that have been to anyone?
Completely disagree. Ask anyone who has played in it.
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 12:22:52 PM
Completely disagree. Ask anyone who has played in it.
That's beside the point. Of course those who have played in any competition will support its retention. They are still contrived and artificial competitions that reward teams for getting relegated in their own counties.
Quote from: five points on March 27, 2019, 12:27:55 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 12:22:52 PM
Completely disagree. Ask anyone who has played in it.
That's beside the point. Of course those who have played in any competition will support its retention. They are still contrived and artificial competitions that reward teams for getting relegated in their own counties.
Why is it beside the point? In fact, I think it is 'the' point. Giving smaller communities or teams with lesser ability the chance to take on similar teams from across the country. Not every relegated team always wins the next year either.
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
Giving smaller communities or teams with lesser ability the chance to take on similar teams from across the country.
Except they don't. See above.
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
Not every relegated team always wins the next year either.
Quite, but most of those who do win are previously relegated teams. There are some farcical examples and only a few kicks of a ball stopped Cavan Gaels from making a total arse of it altogether, although it wouldn't have been their fault.
Quote from: five points on March 27, 2019, 12:51:44 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
Giving smaller communities or teams with lesser ability the chance to take on similar teams from across the country.
Except they don't. See above.
Except they do. Every year. For example, of the last 10 winners of Derry's Intermediate or Junior Championship I don't think there's been one 'big' club or one of overly superior ability that I can think of.
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
Not every relegated team always wins the next year either.
Quite, but most of those who do win are previously relegated teams. There are some farcical examples and only a few kicks of a ball stopped Cavan Gaels from making a total arse of it altogether, although it wouldn't have been their fault.
So you scrap an entire championship because Cavan Gaels nearly got relegated one year?
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 01:24:31 PM
Except they do. Every year. For example, of the last 10 winners of Derry's Intermediate or Junior Championship I don't think there's been one 'big' club or one of overly superior ability that I can think of.
How many of them contested an All Ireland Intermediate or Junior Championship final?
Quote from: five points on March 27, 2019, 01:35:53 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 01:24:31 PM
Except they do. Every year. For example, of the last 10 winners of Derry's Intermediate or Junior Championship I don't think there's been one 'big' club or one of overly superior ability that I can think of.
How many of them contested an All Ireland Intermediate or Junior Championship final?
That wasn't my point. My point was 'Giving smaller communities or teams with lesser ability the chance to take on similar teams from across the country.'
I actually would agree with those who think Kerry clubs have an unfair advantage. I don't think the competition should be scrapped because of this though.
Quote from: five points on March 27, 2019, 12:27:55 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 12:22:52 PM
Completely disagree. Ask anyone who has played in it.
That's beside the point. Of course those who have played in any competition will support its retention. They are still contrived and artificial competitions that reward teams for getting relegated in their own counties.
Should also get rid of all the B, C, D, level college competitions.
Only All Irelands for senior clubs, colleges and counties
Quote from: Kickham csc on March 27, 2019, 03:01:37 PM
Quote from: five points on March 27, 2019, 12:27:55 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 12:22:52 PM
Completely disagree. Ask anyone who has played in it.
That's beside the point. Of course those who have played in any competition will support its retention. They are still contrived and artificial competitions that reward teams for getting relegated in their own counties.
Should also get rid of all the B, C, D, level college competitions.
Only All Irelands for senior clubs, colleges and counties
good way to kill a sport that had no transfer system
so if your from a junior club what do you do with no proper competition to play in .
a c title for a small club would be as well celebrated than An a title for a school club who have buckets of them
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 02:38:46 PM
Quote from: five points on March 27, 2019, 01:35:53 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 01:24:31 PM
Except they do. Every year. For example, of the last 10 winners of Derry's Intermediate or Junior Championship I don't think there's been one 'big' club or one of overly superior ability that I can think of.
How many of them contested an All Ireland Intermediate or Junior Championship final?
That wasn't my point. My point was 'Giving smaller communities or teams with lesser ability the chance to take on similar teams from across the country.'
I actually would agree with those who think Kerry clubs have an unfair advantage. I don't think the competition should be scrapped because of this though.
Maybe they should do in a few counties what happens with Kerry hurling clubs (and Kilkenny football clubs?), with the senior winners going into the Intermediate Provincial club c'ship and the intermediate winners going into the junior.
But you wouldn't want to be too hasty, as we've seen clubs from Carlow, Wicklow and Longford win Leinster and those would be counties you'd normally consider weak and needing an advantage.
Im a bit confused with this argument. Why does it matter that weaker clubs don't stand a chance at intermediate or junior level? There is plenty of senior clubs up and down the country that don't have a snowballs chance in hell of winning their county championship. Should their be another tier created for them to give them a chance of winning, as they would obviously be too strong for intermediate?
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 12:22:52 PM
Quote from: five points on March 27, 2019, 10:28:41 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 27, 2019, 10:15:14 AM
The problem is not with Kerry. There's absolutely nothing to stop other counties having only 8 senior clubs if that's what suits their county. Personally I think winning intermediate and junior club All-Ireland's is well down the list of priorities and certainly not why Kerry's system is designed in this fashion. They use it to maximise the meaningful games each player gets.
Nail on head.
I'd abolish the intermediate and junior club All-Irelands. They are contrived and meaningless competitions that effectively reward strong clubs who get relegated. Cavan Gaels almost got relegated to intermediate in 2016 and the next year ended up getting to the Ulster Senior Club Final. Had they lost their relegation playoff, they would have probably won the All Ireland intermediate in 2017. What good would that have been to anyone?
Completely disagree. Ask anyone who has played in it.
Would completely agree with this.
I played in a Connacht junior club final several years back and the experience was just priceless.
Mine is a small club that ain't going to be competing for senior championships any time soon.
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2019, 02:53:22 PM
Cork let Divisional and College teams play in their SFC and SHC too.
That's incorrect is it not? There's a divisional championship in cork but they dont compete in the club champ do they?
They do.
Imokilly is an area of East(ish) Cork who won Co Hurling last year beating Midleton a senior club from the same district in the Final.
Quote from: trileacman on March 27, 2019, 08:12:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2019, 02:53:22 PM
Cork let Divisional and College teams play in their SFC and SHC too.
That's incorrect is it not? There's a divisional championship in cork but they dont compete in the club champ do they?
There are 9 divisions within Cork GAA and most of them enter teams in the county SFC or SHC (Beara don't in hurling and 1/2 others skip the football). Imokilly won the last two hurling titles and the runners up have proceeded to Munster as a result.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZjk9jOXcAAI94Q.jpg)
Quote from: trileacman on March 27, 2019, 08:12:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2019, 02:53:22 PM
Cork let Divisional and College teams play in their SFC and SHC too.
That's incorrect is it not? There's a divisional championship in cork but they dont compete in the club champ do they?
This might help you...
Cork County Championship - Football
OverviewThe Cork County Championship is a double elimination tournament. Each team is afforded two defeats before being eliminated from the championship, except the losers of Round 1 in the Divisional/Colleges section. Pairings for matches are drawn at random and there is no seeding.
Each match is played as a single leg. If a match is drawn there is a period of extra time, however, if both sides are still level at the end of extra time a replay takes place and so on until a winner is found.
FormatDivisional and College sectionRound 1: Eight teams contest this round. The four winning teams advance to Round 2. The four losing teams are eliminated from the championship.
Round 2: Four teams contest this round. The two winning teams advance to Round 3 of the championship proper. The two losing teams are eliminated from the championship.
Club sectionPreliminary round: 2 teams contest this round. The winning team advances to Round 1. The losing team advances to Round 2.
Round 1: 18 teams contest this round. The nine losing teams advance to Round 2. The nine winning teams advance to Round 3.
Round 2: The nine losing teams from Round 1 and the losing team from the preliminary round contest this round. The five winning teams advance to Round 3. The five losing teams are eliminated from the championship.
Round 3: The nine winning teams from Round 1, the five winning teams from Round 2, and the 2 divisional teams contest this round. The eight winning teams advance to the Quarter-finals. The eight losing teams are eliminated from the championship.
Quarter-finals: 8 teams contest this round. The 4 winning teams advance to the Semi-finals. The 4 losing teams are eliminated from the championship.
Semi-finals: 4 teams contest this round. The 2 winning teams advance to the Semi-finals. The 2 losing teams are eliminated from the championship.
Final: The final is contested by the two semi-final winners.
What sort of preparation do Divisional sides put in? Are there issues freeing up the players from their clubs and the clubs preparation for the junior on intermediate championships?
Just to add to the confusion in Kerry and Cork there are divisional sides with the same names as club sides i.e. Kenmare, Carbery, St. Brendan's.
Quote from: blanketattack on March 28, 2019, 10:00:29 AM
Just to add to the confusion in Kerry and Cork there are divisional sides with the same names as club sides i.e. Kenmare, Carbery, St. Brendan's.
There is a club team Carbery Rangers - no club called Carbery.
And I believe Kenmare Shamrocks is the club, Kenmare is the divisional side?
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 01:24:31 PM
Quote from: five points on March 27, 2019, 12:51:44 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
Giving smaller communities or teams with lesser ability the chance to take on similar teams from across the country.
Except they don't. See above.
Except they do. Every year. For example, of the last 10 winners of Derry's Intermediate or Junior Championship I don't think there's been one 'big' club or one of overly superior ability that I can think of.
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 27, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
Not every relegated team always wins the next year either.
Quite, but most of those who do win are previously relegated teams. There are some farcical examples and only a few kicks of a ball stopped Cavan Gaels from making a total arse of it altogether, although it wouldn't have been their fault.
So you scrap an entire championship because Cavan Gaels nearly got relegated one year?
Did Cavan Gaels not win their Relegation Playoff by 30+ points?
Needless to say we can quite accurately predict that Na Gaeil will be the Kerry, Munster and All Ireland Junior Club Champs in 2019.
Quote from: Westside on March 29, 2019, 01:13:46 PM
Did Cavan Gaels not win their Relegation Playoff by 30+ points?
No
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Cavan_Senior_Football_Championship#Relegation_Final
Quote
Relegation Final
The 2 winners of the Relegation Round 1 play each other. The winner retains their Senior status for 2017 while the loser will be relegated to the 2017 I.F.C.
15 October 2016
16:30
Relegation Final
Cavan Gaels 0-13 - 1-4 Ballyhaise
Killeshandra
Referee: Pat Clarke
Quote from: DownFanatic on March 29, 2019, 01:20:27 PM
Needless to say we can quite accurately predict that Na Gaeil will be the Kerry, Munster and All Ireland Junior Club Champs in 2019.
I'm sure you meant 2020 for the All Ireland.
A few years ago Carbery Rangers won the All Ireland Intermediate
before they won the Cork Intermediate. The lost the Cork final to Nemo's second team, who could not go forward to Munster. Carbery Rangers then won Munster, All Ireland, and finally the Cork championship 12 months after losing to Nemo.
It's a joke of a system. Should be 3 leagues split evenly, league position reflects grade at championship. Intermediate grade teams competing in junior championships.... ::)
When you go beyond the county championship, the whole system is unfair.
No offence here, just generalising. But say Waterford's top senior team, they might be rated the same level as a Kerry Junior or Intermediate team. So Croke's win Kerry, and play the equivalent of a Kerry Junior team in Munster.
Having said that, senior club AI c'ship is probably the fairest. Because the best in each county play the best from other counties. Once you go down to Intermediate and Junior, those teams are only rated like that compared to the standard of the rest of that county. For a county like Cork/Kerry with lots of clubs, who might have 16 senior clubs in the c'ship, there could be another 16 that are better than a lot of clubs in Munster. So a Intermediate Kerry team might be better than most other Munster county's senior champions (Hence the Kilcummin debate)
Quote from: BennyCake on March 30, 2019, 12:38:43 PM
When you go beyond the county championship, the whole system is unfair.
No offence here, just generalising. But say Waterford's top senior team, they might be rated the same level as a Kerry Junior or Intermediate team. So Croke's win Kerry, and play the equivalent of a Kerry Junior team in Munster.
Having said that, senior club AI c'ship is probably the fairest. Because the best in each county play the best from other counties. Once you go down to Intermediate and Junior, those teams are only rated like that compared to the standard of the rest of that county. For a county like Cork/Kerry with lots of clubs, who might have 16 senior clubs in the c'ship, there could be another 16 that are better than a lot of clubs in Munster. So a Intermediate Kerry team might be better than most other Munster county's senior champions (Hence the Kilcummin debate)
Think it's more the amount of senior teams that is the problem. Only 8 in Kerry where many similar sized counties might have 16, 18 or even 20 senior teams like we had in Galway up to last year. Less senior teams you have the more quality teams you have in intermediate and junior which is a significant part of the reason why Kerry clean up at those grades.
Dublin more teams than most outside Cork. I u don't see their junior and intermediate course teams rake it as they put in the relevant team at that level
The Kerry system works!
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 29, 2019, 08:53:39 AM
And I believe Kenmare Shamrocks is the club, Kenmare is the divisional side?
Kenmare District is the divisional side.
Quote from: From the Bunker on March 31, 2019, 03:54:31 PM
The Kerry system works!
It does work. Don't let your bitterness get in the way. Kerry is decimated with people emigration and great to see players from small clubs win some silverware . Maybe your county should adopt the Kerry model. Also a team championship status shouldn't be decided what league they're in. County players see very or little action in the county leagues.
Quote from: five points on March 27, 2019, 10:28:41 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 27, 2019, 10:15:14 AM
The problem is not with Kerry. There's absolutely nothing to stop other counties having only 8 senior clubs if that's what suits their county. Personally I think winning intermediate and junior club All-Ireland's is well down the list of priorities and certainly not why Kerry's system is designed in this fashion. They use it to maximise the meaningful games each player gets.
Nail on head.
I'd abolish the intermediate and junior club All-Irelands. They are contrived and meaningless competitions that effectively reward strong clubs who get relegated. Cavan Gaels almost got relegated to intermediate in 2016 and the next year ended up getting to the Ulster Senior Club Final. Had they lost their relegation playoff, they would have probably won the All Ireland intermediate in 2017. What good would that have been to anyone?
Not really a great example there, Cavan Gaels benefitted from a handy draw in Ulster playing the Antrim and Fermanagh champions and were beaten quite routinely by Slaughtneil in the final. I'm not sure they'd have came out of Ulster that year at intermediate level and I'm not sure that they'd have fared out to well in the AI series if they did.
Quote from: kerryforsam19 on April 02, 2019, 10:34:38 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on March 31, 2019, 03:54:31 PM
The Kerry system works!
It does work. Don't let your bitterness get in the way. Kerry is decimated with people emigration and great to see players from small clubs win some silverware . Maybe your county should adopt the Kerry model. Also a team championship status shouldn't be decided what league they're in. County players see very or little action in the county leagues.
Exactly right. There's no way a clubs championship status should be decided by games where they aren't entitled to field all their players. That's why the rules relating to this were changed a good few years ago.
The Kerry system is fantastic.
Quote from: Angelo on April 02, 2019, 11:49:57 PM
Not really a great example there, Cavan Gaels benefitted from a handy draw in Ulster playing the Antrim and Fermanagh champions and were beaten quite routinely by Slaughtneil in the final. I'm not sure they'd have came out of Ulster that year at intermediate level and I'm not sure that they'd have fared out to well in the AI series if they did.
If some of the teams playing in the provincial and All Ireland intermediate championships really are stronger than some of the teams playing in the corresponding senior championships, that should raise questions too.
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 03, 2019, 04:06:14 PM
Quote from: kerryforsam19 on April 02, 2019, 10:34:38 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on March 31, 2019, 03:54:31 PM
The Kerry system works!
It does work. Don't let your bitterness get in the way. Kerry is decimated with people emigration and great to see players from small clubs win some silverware . Maybe your county should adopt the Kerry model. Also a team championship status shouldn't be decided what league they're in. County players see very or little action in the county leagues.
Exactly right. There's no way a clubs championship status should be decided by games where they aren't entitled to field all their players. That's why the rules relating to this were changed a good few years ago.
The Kerry system is fantastic.
Yeah. We're slowly moving in that direction here too. Kilmaine who are junior are in Division 2 whereas Davitts who are senior are in Division 3 of our leagues.
I do believe in time most of the league games will be played without county players in Mayo, obviously if the county are knocked out the players will become available again.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 03, 2019, 08:25:48 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 03, 2019, 04:06:14 PM
Quote from: kerryforsam19 on April 02, 2019, 10:34:38 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on March 31, 2019, 03:54:31 PM
The Kerry system works!
It does work. Don't let your bitterness get in the way. Kerry is decimated with people emigration and great to see players from small clubs win some silverware . Maybe your county should adopt the Kerry model. Also a team championship status shouldn't be decided what league they're in. County players see very or little action in the county leagues.
Exactly right. There's no way a clubs championship status should be decided by games where they aren't entitled to field all their players. That's why the rules relating to this were changed a good few years ago.
The Kerry system is fantastic.
Yeah. We're slowly moving in that direction here too. Kilmaine who are junior are in Division 2 whereas Davitts who are senior are in Division 3 of our leagues.
I do believe in time most of the league games will be played without county players in Mayo, obviously if the county are knocked out the players will become available again.
Counties simply have to start playing off their leagues without county players.
You can't have club players idle and not even playing league games because county lads aren't available.
The penny seems to have finally dropped in Galway anyway and now the league games this year seem to be fixed regardless of whether county lads are available or not.
It makes total sense as a clubs championship grading is not in any way determined by their league standing.
The league and championships have only been separated in Galway football anyway since about 2011-2012.
Up to that you had senior, intermediate, junior A etc league as well as championship.
If you were relegated you went down for both league and championship.
Kerry Club Championships finished today.
Senior winners: Austin Stacks (Div 1)
Intermediate winners: Templenoe (Div 1) Relegated: Brosna (Div 2)
Premier Junior winners: Na Gaeil (Div 1) Relegated Lispole (Div 3)
Junior winners: Ballyduff (Div 5)
The only fixture remaining is the Senior Relegation Final between Rathmore and Kilcummin. This will not be played until the County Championship is in the later stages as a Club that makes the County Final cannot be relegated from Senior ranks.
What's the story with Kenmare District now?
Isn't it supposed to be Kenmare Shamrocks, Templenoe and Kilgarvan? Two of those teams are now senior. It shouldn't affect this year's competition, but what happens next year? Are Kilgarvan pegged in with another combination?