arrest at least,if not reverse,the lamentable anti Catholicism and general spread of atheism in the free state?
Atheism is not believing in God(s). I don't see how an atheist would believe in God again just because the pope comes to town. You can't force adults to believe in a god
He isn't obviously going to force anyone,but the question is can his visit inspire people to rethink and perhaps return to their faith
Quote from: T Fearon on November 23, 2016, 08:59:08 PM
He isn't obviously going to force anyone,but the question is can his visit inspire people to rethink and perhaps return to their faith
God obviously wanted people to leave the Church, Tony. That is why she sent those rapists.
To fulfil Scripture. We are just pawns in the great game of God. How else does she fix sports results ?
If he makes a reality TV show out of it maybe, the cult of celebrity trumps all these days.
His visit will undoubtedly by popular, mainly because it'll be something out of the ordinary for people.
Enda Kenny is off to the Vatican next week to welcome Pope Francis' decision to hold the World meeting of families in Dublin in 2018.
Still don't know why since he's going as he's been leading the destruction of families since he took office.
Quote from: bennydorano on November 23, 2016, 10:40:13 PM
If he makes a reality TV show out of it maybe, the cult of celebrity trumps all these days.
His visit will undoubtedly by popular, mainly because it'll be something out of the ordinary for people.
Conor McGregor might draw a bigger crowd these days. It's a pity Paisley didn't stick around to see it.
Not to mention overseeing the destruction of the Church run schools in favour of those educate together mumbo jumbo ones.
Them Popes were some hoors back in the day. Brothels in the Basilica, paedophilia in St Peters....digging up old Popes for the craic....
Would be grand to see His Holiness come to visit us.
Hopefully he'll bring the simple Christian message of love and tell his members to forget all the technicality religion a lot of them are hung up on.
Quote from: T Fearon on November 23, 2016, 08:47:38 PM
arrest at least,if not reverse,the lamentable anti Catholicism and general spread of atheism in the free state?
I hope it does lead to some arrests!
It would be great if he came. He is a breath of fresh air after the last 2 popes. A real man of the people and I know of many people who would be very excited to see him here.
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 24, 2016, 11:11:09 AM
It would be great if he came. He is a breath of fresh air after the last 2 popes. A real man of the people and I know of many people who would be very excited to see him here.
But does having a seemingly friendlier pope really going to matter in the day to day lives of the average catholic? Is their lives so much more enriched because the current pope seems like a nice fella?
The economy is still fcuked, billions in poverty, cuts left right and centre, the A5 road still not built... but the pope is great. Ah sure all is well with the world then!
I know a lad in the midlands who is banking on the visit, he's at the ready with the Papal scarfs, headbands and flags all branded as 2018! Same fella took an awful roasting on Garth a couple of years back, has a shed load of stetsons at the ready as well.
Quote from: T Fearon on November 23, 2016, 08:47:38 PM
arrest at least,if not reverse,the lamentable anti Catholicism and general spread of atheism in the free state?
You say that like the spread of atheism is a bad thing!
Quote from: balladmaker on November 24, 2016, 12:35:47 PM
I know a lad in the midlands who is banking on the visit, he's at the ready with the Papal scarfs, headbands and flags all branded as 2018! Same fella took an awful roasting on Garth a couple of years back, has a shed load of stetsons at the ready as well.
Ha ha . Bit like the Kerry 5 in a row t shirts !!!
I'd say all the women that have had abortions will be flocking out to thank him for allowing priests to forgive them for their sins. Must be a weight of their shoulders.
I don't mind if he come any more than any other celebrity. Once he brings his own security at his own cost.
Tiocfaidh ar Fra!
Alas I can't get excited on a 1979 level as I am a regular visitor to Rome and have this Pope and his last two predecessors recite the Angelus on numerous Sundays in St Peter's Square. Still it is great to see and amazingly there has been no adverse reaction up North,Arlene confirms she will meet him though the so called evangelical loony fringe will hardly let the visit pass without protest.
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 24, 2016, 01:33:54 PM
I'd say all the women that have had abortions will be flocking out to thank him for allowing priests to forgive them for their sins. Must be a weight of their shoulders.
I don't mind if he come any more than any other celebrity head of state. Once he brings his own security at his own cost.
Do you wish to discriminate against one particular head of state?
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 24, 2016, 11:11:09 AM
It would be great if he came. He is a breath of fresh air after the last 2 popes. A real man of the people and I know of many people who would be very excited to see him here.
Agree with this. There'll always be knockers however.
We are still (barely) predominantly (oxymoron) a Roman Catholic Country. He should be welcomed and naturally will be. It won't change anything, but it just might surprise us how much we are still attached to the beliefs of our Fathers!
I wonder how many men in Down jerseys will be there this time, praying for a miracle after the year they've had.
Quote from: balladmaker on November 24, 2016, 12:35:47 PM
I know a lad in the midlands who is banking on the visit, he's at the ready with the Papal scarfs, headbands and flags all branded as 2018! Same fella took an awful roasting on Garth a couple of years back, has a shed load of stetsons at the ready as well.
I remember the papal chairs back in 1979. All the hardware store were selling them and must have made a killing. We set off walking from Ballaghaderreen on our way to Knock in the early hours of the morning, carrying these chairs, like something out of the living dead. The were made out of shite however. I saw one go up in bits the minute some poor woman plonked her arse down; the sound of cracking sticks echoed around the fields to great laughter. We spent the day standing in those wet fields and hardly even saw the Pope, he was just a blip on the horizon. But those days are not coming back; we were a country of eejits back then.
Maybe he ll lift that Mayo curse!!!
Quote from: weareros on November 28, 2016, 10:41:15 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on November 24, 2016, 12:35:47 PM
I know a lad in the midlands who is banking on the visit, he's at the ready with the Papal scarfs, headbands and flags all branded as 2018! Same fella took an awful roasting on Garth a couple of years back, has a shed load of stetsons at the ready as well.
I remember the papal chairs back in 1979. All the hardware store were selling them and must have made a killing. We set off walking from Ballaghaderreen on our way to Knock in the early hours of the morning, carrying these chairs, like something out of the living dead. The were made out of shite however. I saw one go up in bits the minute some poor woman plonked her arse down; the sound of cracking sticks echoed around the fields to great laughter. We spent the day standing in those wet fields and hardly even saw the Pope, he was just a blip on the horizon. But those days are not coming back; we were a country of eejits back then.
We sure were! I remember it well. Whatever may be wrong with present society, it pales in comparison to what it was like in those times.
Surely the Pope should pop into Tonys for tea. He'd do well to find a better defender of the faith against all those false accusations leveled against the poor old catholic church.
I remember all the new hymns in 1979. They obviously worked cos the hurlers won the all Ireland the year after.
He should go to England and sort out Brexit. God love them.
Has Panti become the official Queen of Ireland or do more people still hail Mary?
Quote from: T Fearon on November 23, 2016, 08:47:38 PM
Proposed Papal Visit to Ireland.Will it
arrest at least,if not reverse,the lamentable anti Catholicism and general spread of atheism in the free state?
No, I'd be pretty confident that the continuing positive re-alignment of the nation's moral compass resulting from the overthrow of the Catholic church's repugnant influence will survive his brief presence. After all, the Director-General of the BBC, the organisation that protected and facilitated Jimmy Savile, was here loads of times and there was no perceptible deleterious effect on public morality in this country as a result.
Quote from: seafoid on November 29, 2016, 10:05:04 AM
I remember all the new hymns in 1979. They obviously worked cos the hurlers won the all Ireland the year after.
He should go to England and sort out Brexit. God love them.
Has Panti become the official Queen of Ireland or do more people still hail Mary?
Brexit
is sorted out. They voted Leave.
But maybe he could sort out the Championship format?
Quote from: Hardy on November 29, 2016, 10:09:09 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on November 23, 2016, 08:47:38 PM
Proposed Papal Visit to Ireland.Will it
arrest at least,if not reverse,the lamentable anti Catholicism and general spread of atheism in the free state?
No, I'd be pretty confident that the continuing positive re-alignment of the nation's moral compass resulting from the overthrow of the Catholic church's repugnant influence will survive his brief presence. After all, the Director-General of the BBC, the organisation that protected and facilitated Jimmy Savile, was here loads of times and there was no perceptible deleterious effect on public morality in this country as a result.
Savile got Papal and royal knighthoods. Makes you wonder how much those two outfits knew of his antics too.
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 28, 2016, 08:47:07 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 24, 2016, 01:33:54 PM
I'd say all the women that have had abortions will be flocking out to thank him for allowing priests to forgive them for their sins. Must be a weight of their shoulders.
I don't mind if he come any more than any other head of state. Once he brings his own security at his own cost.
Do you wish to discriminate against one particular head of state?
I don't see him as a head of state. Even if he was, what benefit is he going to bring to Ireland by visiting? I'm surprised he's even recognised as the pope considering his predecessor left the post without God's say so.
Quote from: BennyCake on November 29, 2016, 10:31:39 AM
Quote from: Hardy on November 29, 2016, 10:09:09 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on November 23, 2016, 08:47:38 PM
Proposed Papal Visit to Ireland.Will it
arrest at least,if not reverse,the lamentable anti Catholicism and general spread of atheism in the free state?
No, I'd be pretty confident that the continuing positive re-alignment of the nation's moral compass resulting from the overthrow of the Catholic church's repugnant influence will survive his brief presence. After all, the Director-General of the BBC, the organisation that protected and facilitated Jimmy Savile, was here loads of times and there was no perceptible deleterious effect on public morality in this country as a result.
Savile got Papal and royal knighthoods. Makes you wonder how much those two outfits knew of his antics too.
The Church has a very relaxed attitude to abuse if it maintains discipline or brings in Money
It's a business
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcial_Maciel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15KJccuWrBU
Quote from: BennyCake on November 29, 2016, 10:31:39 AM
Quote from: Hardy on November 29, 2016, 10:09:09 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on November 23, 2016, 08:47:38 PM
Proposed Papal Visit to Ireland.Will it
arrest at least,if not reverse,the lamentable anti Catholicism and general spread of atheism in the free state?
No, I'd be pretty confident that the continuing positive re-alignment of the nation's moral compass resulting from the overthrow of the Catholic church's repugnant influence will survive his brief presence. After all, the Director-General of the BBC, the organisation that protected and facilitated Jimmy Savile, was here loads of times and there was no perceptible deleterious effect on public morality in this country as a result.
Savile got Papal and royal knighthoods. Makes you wonder how much those two outfits knew of his antics too.
Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 29, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
Even if he was, what benefit is he going to bring to Ireland by visiting?
There's a lad with a load of Garth Brooks stetsons he's going to put a bit of white and yellow wool around and sell for a load of €uro's, not to mention the holy candles, mass cards, tacky plates and so forth. Don't underestimate the entrepreneurial abilities of Paddy to make a bit of coin on the back of this visit.
If Frankie brings a load of archived documents from the Holy see's vaults and gave them to the Guards (not that they'd do a whole pile with them!) then he'd be doing the Catholic Church in Ireland a huge favour in relation to resolving a lot of the open sores relating the child abuse scandal aided and abetted by Rome.
Quote from: johnneycool on November 29, 2016, 02:09:41 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 29, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
Even if he was, what benefit is he going to bring to Ireland by visiting?
There's a lad with a load of Garth Brooks stetsons he's going to put a bit of white and yellow wool around and sell for a load of €uro's, not to mention the holy candles, mass cards, tacky plates and so forth. Don't underestimate the entrepreneurial abilities of Paddy to make a bit of coin on the back of this visit.
If Frankie brings a load of archived documents from the Holy see's vaults and gave them to the Guards (not that they'd do a whole pile with them!) then he'd be doing the Catholic Church in Ireland a huge favour in relation to resolving a lot of the open sores relating the child abuse scandal aided and abetted by Rome.
There's more chance of the queen bringing archived documents of evidence of what her soldiers/security forces/government got up to during the Troubles. That too would resolve some of the open sores for many people. Ain't gonna happen though.
Quote from: johnneycool on November 29, 2016, 02:09:41 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 29, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
Even if he was, what benefit is he going to bring to Ireland by visiting?
There's a lad with a load of Garth Brooks stetsons he's going to put a bit of white and yellow wool around and sell for a load of €uro's, not to mention the holy candles, mass cards, tacky plates and so forth. Don't underestimate the entrepreneurial abilities of Paddy to make a bit of coin on the back of this visit.
If Frankie brings a load of archived documents from the Holy see's vaults and gave them to the Guards (not that they'd do a whole pile with them!) then he'd be doing the Catholic Church in Ireland a huge favour in relation to resolving a lot of the open sores relating the child abuse scandal aided and abetted by Rome.
Your first point, although in jest, is a good enough reason to let him in for me. Once those merchants are paying their taxes at whatever decimal it is these days.
Unfortunately, your second paragraph ain't going to happen.
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 29, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 28, 2016, 08:47:07 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 24, 2016, 01:33:54 PM
I'd say all the women that have had abortions will be flocking out to thank him for allowing priests to forgive them for their sins. Must be a weight of their shoulders.
I don't mind if he come any more than any other head of state. Once he brings his own security at his own cost.
Do you wish to discriminate against one particular head of state?
I don't see him as a head of state. Even if he was, what benefit is he going to bring to Ireland by visiting? I'm surprised he's even recognised as the pope considering his predecessor left the post without God's say so.
Well he is recognised as such by the state he is visiting (and a good few others), just as the Irish President is recognised by the state he represents, its a basic fundamental of international diplomacy.
Would his predecessor be more acceptable to you for the funding a state visit? Or is there a particular reason that you dont see him as head of the Holy See?
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 29, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
I'm surprised he's even recognised as the pope considering his predecessor left the post without God's say so.
Did God tell you this personally or was it in a tweet?
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fundamentalist-catholics-are-turning-people-off-church-in-ireland-1.2885273?__vfz=c_pages%3D11000002670848
A pretty clear rejection of the sort of religion that Tony likes to preach.
Quote from: T Fearon on November 23, 2016, 08:47:38 PM
arrest at least,if not reverse,the lamentable anti Catholicism and general spread of atheism in the free state?
Bit late as the Free State hasn't existed since 1937/38 ;D
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2016, 09:45:19 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on November 23, 2016, 08:47:38 PM
arrest at least,if not reverse,the lamentable anti Catholicism and general spread of atheism in the free state?
Bit late as the Free State hasn't existed since 1937/38 ;D
I think Northern Irelnd is now in 1703 or something so 1937 hasn't happened yet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjEkjeVzL34
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 29, 2016, 06:35:31 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 29, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 28, 2016, 08:47:07 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 24, 2016, 01:33:54 PM
I'd say all the women that have had abortions will be flocking out to thank him for allowing priests to forgive them for their sins. Must be a weight of their shoulders.
I don't mind if he come any more than any other head of state. Once he brings his own security at his own cost.
Do you wish to discriminate against one particular head of state?
I don't see him as a head of state. Even if he was, what benefit is he going to bring to Ireland by visiting? I'm surprised he's even recognised as the pope considering his predecessor left the post without God's say so.
Well he is recognised as such by the state he is visiting (and a good few others), just as the Irish President is recognised by the state he represents, its a basic fundamental of international diplomacy.
Would his predecessor be more acceptable to you for the funding a state visit? Or is there a particular reason that you dont see him as head of the Holy See?
I'm sure it is. When Michael D heads off to such states, or when we welcome in other Heads of State, it is generally to mutually benefit the relevant states and its people. The Vatican City is a state in name only. Few of the basic fundamental characteristics of a state apply to it. Which pope it is is irrelevant.
Quote from: armaghniac on November 29, 2016, 06:46:06 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 29, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
I'm surprised he's even recognised as the pope considering his predecessor left the post without God's say so.
Did God tell you this personally or was it in a tweet?
I've never met nor heard from God. Have you?
Is there a suggestion that there was a communication from this figure to direct the last pope?
Esm
So you dont recognise the sovereignty of the Vatican, rather than an issue with its particular head of state, is that the problem?
The only criteria any country has for sovereignty is adherence of its citizens to its ideal and acceptance of that sovereignty by other sovereign states. The Vatican would appear to meet both of these, Which of the two do you have an issue with?
The institutions of The Republic of Ireland, The United Kingdom, The EU and The UN all recognise it as a sovereign state. For what reason exactly do you wish one or all of them to depart with protocol and not extend standard diplomatic courtesy for a recognised head of state?
Wouldnt meeting and hosting with one of the worlds most influential people not be of benefit to any country?
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 30, 2016, 11:35:30 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 29, 2016, 06:35:31 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 29, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 28, 2016, 08:47:07 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 24, 2016, 01:33:54 PM
I'd say all the women that have had abortions will be flocking out to thank him for allowing priests to forgive them for their sins. Must be a weight of their shoulders.
I don't mind if he come any more than any other head of state. Once he brings his own security at his own cost.
Do you wish to discriminate against one particular head of state?
I don't see him as a head of state. Even if he was, what benefit is he going to bring to Ireland by visiting? I'm surprised he's even recognised as the pope considering his predecessor left the post without God's say so.
Well he is recognised as such by the state he is visiting (and a good few others), just as the Irish President is recognised by the state he represents, its a basic fundamental of international diplomacy.
Would his predecessor be more acceptable to you for the funding a state visit? Or is there a particular reason that you dont see him as head of the Holy See?
I'm sure it is. When Michael D heads off to such states, or when we welcome in other Heads of State, it is generally to mutually benefit the relevant states and its people. The Vatican City is a state in name only. Few of the basic fundamental characteristics of a state apply to it. Which pope it is is irrelevant.
Quote from: armaghniac on November 29, 2016, 06:46:06 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 29, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
I'm surprised he's even recognised as the pope considering his predecessor left the post without God's say so.
Did God tell you this personally or was it in a tweet?
I've never met nor heard from God. Have you?
Is there a suggestion that there was a communication from this figure to direct the last pope?
In what way would a visit from another sovereign head of state be of any more mutual benefit than one from the Pope?
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 30, 2016, 04:47:14 PM
Esm
So you dont recognise the sovereignty of the Vatican, rather than an issue with its particular head of state, is that the problem?
The only criteria any country has for sovereignty is adherence of its citizens to its ideal and acceptance of that sovereignty by other sovereign states. The Vatican would appear to meet both of these, Which of the two do you have an issue with?
The institutions of The Republic of Ireland, The United Kingdom, The EU and The UN all recognise it as a sovereign state. For what reason exactly do you wish one or all of them to depart with protocol and not extend standard diplomatic courtesy for a recognised head of state?
Wouldnt meeting and hosting with one of the worlds most influential people not be of benefit to any country?
I don't have a problem with the sovereignty of the Vatican. It has no bearing on my life. So if it fits the criteria, as you see and describe them then so be it and on that basis if the leader of this state wishes to invite the leader of that state I suppose I don't have a good reason to object.
However, the Vatican differs from your average state. He won't be coming over discussing trade agreements, work visas or anything that I can see that is worth discussing. Sure people that believe the particular belief system that he leads, rather than the ones that haven't stood the test of time will see this mere mortal's attendance as some great event.
I see it as a waste of time (not my time, our public representatives' time) and our money.
On your last question, how would meeting him be of benefit to Enda Kenny or any other politician that meets him, in the context of his influence over people?
Quote from: Franko on November 30, 2016, 05:22:23 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 30, 2016, 11:35:30 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 29, 2016, 06:35:31 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 29, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 28, 2016, 08:47:07 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 24, 2016, 01:33:54 PM
I'd say all the women that have had abortions will be flocking out to thank him for allowing priests to forgive them for their sins. Must be a weight of their shoulders.
I don't mind if he come any more than any other head of state. Once he brings his own security at his own cost.
Do you wish to discriminate against one particular head of state?
I don't see him as a head of state. Even if he was, what benefit is he going to bring to Ireland by visiting? I'm surprised he's even recognised as the pope considering his predecessor left the post without God's say so.
Well he is recognised as such by the state he is visiting (and a good few others), just as the Irish President is recognised by the state he represents, its a basic fundamental of international diplomacy.
Would his predecessor be more acceptable to you for the funding a state visit? Or is there a particular reason that you dont see him as head of the Holy See?
I'm sure it is. When Michael D heads off to such states, or when we welcome in other Heads of State, it is generally to mutually benefit the relevant states and its people. The Vatican City is a state in name only. Few of the basic fundamental characteristics of a state apply to it. Which pope it is is irrelevant.
Quote from: armaghniac on November 29, 2016, 06:46:06 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 29, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
I'm surprised he's even recognised as the pope considering his predecessor left the post without God's say so.
Did God tell you this personally or was it in a tweet?
I've never met nor heard from God. Have you?
Is there a suggestion that there was a communication from this figure to direct the last pope?
In what way would a visit from another sovereign head of state be of any more mutual benefit than one from the Pope?
See above. Economically, travel visas, trade deals etc.
Very blasé. With that criteria you would object to visit from any EU head of state.
Quote from: Franko on November 30, 2016, 08:08:15 PM
Very blasé. With that criteria you would object to visit from any EU head of state.
I'm not sure why you think that. It wasn't meant to be.
I suppose human rights violations would probably make me object. I'd have to take each case in isolation.
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 30, 2016, 07:45:17 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 30, 2016, 04:47:14 PM
Esm
So you dont recognise the sovereignty of the Vatican, rather than an issue with its particular head of state, is that the problem?
The only criteria any country has for sovereignty is adherence of its citizens to its ideal and acceptance of that sovereignty by other sovereign states. The Vatican would appear to meet both of these, Which of the two do you have an issue with?
The institutions of The Republic of Ireland, The United Kingdom, The EU and The UN all recognise it as a sovereign state. For what reason exactly do you wish one or all of them to depart with protocol and not extend standard diplomatic courtesy for a recognised head of state?
Wouldnt meeting and hosting with one of the worlds most influential people not be of benefit to any country?
I don't have a problem with the sovereignty of the Vatican. It has no bearing on my life. So if it fits the criteria, as you see and describe them then so be it and on that basis if the leader of this state wishes to invite the leader of that state I suppose I don't have a good reason to object.
However, the Vatican differs from your average state. He won't be coming over discussing trade agreements, work visas or anything that I can see that is worth discussing. Sure people that believe the particular belief system that he leads, rather than the ones that haven't stood the test of time will see this mere mortal's attendance as some great event.
I see it as a waste of time (not my time, our public representatives' time) and our money.
On your last question, how would meeting him be of benefit to Enda Kenny or any other politician that meets him, in the context of his influence over people?
Fair play Esm I always enjoy our discussions your logical and mannerly even if we rarely agree, but sure if we did what would there be to talk about.
I would say the benefit to any politician is obvious, with a raised profile and thus favourability among the Catholic faithful.
There will also be renewed and strengthened faith the country's congregation so they should be happier. Increased adherence to the church's values and esp Pope Francis's message of forgiveness, mercy, understanding etc should also mean a more cohesive society overall.
The benefits to the country economically have been highlighted previously of the trip itself. I would also add increased profile for the country from the publicity generally and especially among the massive global Catholic community. Any increase in global publicity will lead to increased general tourism, and specifically from a visit like this, pilgrimages of which a good number are likely for the visit itself.
Also from the global Catholic community there would be a renewed understanding of common values which may lead to strengthened links in all aspects of public life including business. Admittedly its difficult to gauge that of course, but like many of the benefits they can't be totted up financially on a balance sheet.
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 30, 2016, 10:43:26 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 30, 2016, 08:08:15 PM
Very blasé. With that criteria you would object to visit from any EU head of state.
I'm not sure why you think that. It wasn't meant to be.
I suppose human rights violations would probably make me object. I'd have to take each case in isolation.
In the Vatican?
The Papal visit is not about the temporal aspects of commercialism,tourism.It is about spiritual renewal in a country which is sadly, in the southern part,spiritually bereft.
Quote from: omaghjoe on December 01, 2016, 06:07:15 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 30, 2016, 07:45:17 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 30, 2016, 04:47:14 PM
Esm
So you dont recognise the sovereignty of the Vatican, rather than an issue with its particular head of state, is that the problem?
The only criteria any country has for sovereignty is adherence of its citizens to its ideal and acceptance of that sovereignty by other sovereign states. The Vatican would appear to meet both of these, Which of the two do you have an issue with?
The institutions of The Republic of Ireland, The United Kingdom, The EU and The UN all recognise it as a sovereign state. For what reason exactly do you wish one or all of them to depart with protocol and not extend standard diplomatic courtesy for a recognised head of state?
Wouldnt meeting and hosting with one of the worlds most influential people not be of benefit to any country?
I don't have a problem with the sovereignty of the Vatican. It has no bearing on my life. So if it fits the criteria, as you see and describe them then so be it and on that basis if the leader of this state wishes to invite the leader of that state I suppose I don't have a good reason to object.
However, the Vatican differs from your average state. He won't be coming over discussing trade agreements, work visas or anything that I can see that is worth discussing. Sure people that believe the particular belief system that he leads, rather than the ones that haven't stood the test of time will see this mere mortal's attendance as some great event.
I see it as a waste of time (not my time, our public representatives' time) and our money.
On your last question, how would meeting him be of benefit to Enda Kenny or any other politician that meets him, in the context of his influence over people?
Fair play Esm I always enjoy our discussions your logical and mannerly even if we rarely agree, but sure if we did what would there be to talk about.
I would say the benefit to any politician is obvious, with a raised profile and thus favourability among the Catholic faithful.
There will also be renewed and strengthened faith the country's congregation so they should be happier. Increased adherence to the church's values and esp Pope Francis's message of forgiveness, mercy, understanding etc should also mean a more cohesive society overall.
The benefits to the country economically have been highlighted previously of the trip itself. I would also add increased profile for the country from the publicity generally and especially among the massive global Catholic community. Any increase in global publicity will lead to increased general tourism, and specifically from a visit like this, pilgrimages of which a good number are likely for the visit itself.
Also from the global Catholic community there would be a renewed understanding of common values which may lead to strengthened links in all aspects of public life including business. Admittedly its difficult to gauge that of course, but like many of the benefits they can't be totted up financially on a balance sheet.
Me, logical? I have no idea what that means :P
The benefits to politicians is obvious, but I was referring to the people of the country.
Your economic points are fair enough; he basically fills the same void that someone like Garth Brooks will fill. A load of people wanting to get a peep at a famous person who has graced little old Ireland with his presence. Coffee will be bought in the cafes near where he walks. I imagine that the cost of putting Garth Brooks up is covered in the ticket price. Maybe they should sell tickets to come and see the Pope. Seriously. Let's see who really wants to see him.
There may be renewed strength of faith in some and there may be an increased sense of fury in others given the Church's murky past. I'll take it that it'll do very little net good.
I completely disagree with your line in bold above. Love they neighbour = be respectful to everyone. I don't see how anyone in Irish society needs to be told this. If they do, I don't think the pope telling them is going set off a light bulb in their head.
Your last paragraph is at a level of wishy washiness that only a Catholic could come up with in this context. ;D Catholics around the world are going to hear the pope make a speech and reach out to people on the street. They'll gather around to assess what his utterances mean (everything needs to be interpreted before we can move on to the next level) and there'll be an intangible increase in world at large.
Quote from: omaghjoe on December 01, 2016, 06:12:39 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 30, 2016, 10:43:26 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 30, 2016, 08:08:15 PM
Very blasé. With that criteria you would object to visit from any EU head of state.
I'm not sure why you think that. It wasn't meant to be.
I suppose human rights violations would probably make me object. I'd have to take each case in isolation.
In the Vatican?
Franko asked "With that criteria you would object to visit from any EU head of state." That was an answer. Just an example of the top off my head. Not specific to the Vatican. I
Quote from: T Fearon on December 01, 2016, 07:22:29 AM
.It is about spiritual renewal in a country which is sadly, in the southern part,spiritually bereft.
Those Munster haythens need bucking up....... yet he won't be visiting them at all.