I watched the cork v mayo game on TG4 today. After the clash of heads between Lee Keegan an Eoin Cadogan both should have been substituted immediately. Mayo physio signaled to take off Keegan but then changed his mind. Shortly afterwards a clearly distressed Keegan had to be helped from the field. To leave Keegan on the field for those additional minutes was an unnecessary and inexcusable risk to the long term health of the player. If the Mayo county board had any balls or concern for player welfare the medics involved should be told their services are no longer required
No where near as bad as Enda Gilvarry and co. leaving Cian Hanley on after collapsing repeatedly with a cruciate tear v Kerry at minor in 2014.
Sadly Mayo are far from alone. Dublin left O'Gara totally frigged out on the field in the 2013 AI final themselves.
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
No where near as bad as Enda Gilvarry and co. leaving Cian Hanley on after collapsing repeatedly with a cruciate tear v Kerry at minor in 2014.
Sadly Mayo are far from alone. Dublin left O'Gara totally frigged out on the field in the 2013 AI final themselves.
Big difference between o gara's torn hamstring and lee Keegan's head injury. With concussion another hit on lee Keegan could have had major repercussions. First game of the season and game already lost no excuse to leave him on
Quote from: dublin7 on January 31, 2016, 08:13:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
No where near as bad as Enda Gilvarry and co. leaving Cian Hanley on after collapsing repeatedly with a cruciate tear v Kerry at minor in 2014.
Sadly Mayo are far from alone. Dublin left O'Gara totally frigged out on the field in the 2013 AI final themselves.
Big difference between o gara's torn hamstring and lee Keegan's head injury. With concussion another hit on lee Keegan could have had major repercussions. First game of the season and game already lost no excuse to leave him on
No excuse to leave any of the players listed on.
Quote from: dublin7 on January 31, 2016, 08:13:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
No where near as bad as Enda Gilvarry and co. leaving Cian Hanley on after collapsing repeatedly with a cruciate tear v Kerry at minor in 2014.
Sadly Mayo are far from alone. Dublin left O'Gara totally frigged out on the field in the 2013 AI final themselves.
Big difference between o gara's torn hamstring and lee Keegan's head injury. With concussion another hit on lee Keegan could have had major repercussions. First game of the season and game already lost no excuse to leave him on
Rory O'Carroll suffered a concussion in a high-profile incident in the 2013 All-Ireland football final but was left to play on for the final 16 minutes as Dublin had already used their five permitted substitutes.
Totally agree with you!
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 31, 2016, 08:22:33 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on January 31, 2016, 08:13:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
No where near as bad as Enda Gilvarry and co. leaving Cian Hanley on after collapsing repeatedly with a cruciate tear v Kerry at minor in 2014.
Sadly Mayo are far from alone. Dublin left O'Gara totally frigged out on the field in the 2013 AI final themselves.
Big difference between o gara's torn hamstring and lee Keegan's head injury. With concussion another hit on lee Keegan could have had major repercussions. First game of the season and game already lost no excuse to leave him on
Rory O'Carroll suffered a concussion in a high-profile incident in the 2013 All-Ireland football final but was left to play on for the final 16 minutes as Dublin had already used their five permitted substitutes.
Totally agree with you!
Agree he should have been taken off. Even in the last 2 years the medical knowledge of the effects of concussion in sport have come a long way. O'Carroll was in an all Ireland final with no sub to bring in so though he should have been taken off I can see why they didn't take him off (doesn't make it right & should have been taken off) Lee Keegan was playing 1st game of season and the game was lost for mayo. No benefit leaving him on
Quote from: dublin7 on January 31, 2016, 08:29:47 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 31, 2016, 08:22:33 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on January 31, 2016, 08:13:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
No where near as bad as Enda Gilvarry and co. leaving Cian Hanley on after collapsing repeatedly with a cruciate tear v Kerry at minor in 2014.
Sadly Mayo are far from alone. Dublin left O'Gara totally frigged out on the field in the 2013 AI final themselves.
Big difference between o gara's torn hamstring and lee Keegan's head injury. With concussion another hit on lee Keegan could have had major repercussions. First game of the season and game already lost no excuse to leave him on
Rory O'Carroll suffered a concussion in a high-profile incident in the 2013 All-Ireland football final but was left to play on for the final 16 minutes as Dublin had already used their five permitted substitutes.
Totally agree with you!
Agree he should have been taken off. Even in the last 2 years the medical knowledge of the effects of concussion in sport have come a long way. O'Carroll was in an all Ireland final with no sub to bring in so though he should have been taken off I can see why they didn't take him off (doesn't make it right & should have been taken off) Lee Keegan was playing 1st game of season and the game was lost for mayo. No benefit leaving him on
I agree! But you can see the different standard you are setting! Serious Injury is serious injury!
Should not be sacked. Doctor wanted him substituted when he was attending him but Keegan insisted he was ok to continue. Unless the Doctor dragged him off he was not leaving.
Obviously we need some guidelines put in place for a scenario like this where there are head injuries and a team doctor feels a player has possibility of concussion that the ref sends the player to the line like in the case of a blood injury. The player can then be assessed on the sideline like they do in rugby.
This would get rid of any ambiguity and unseemly rows between medical staff and players about coming off or not.
This medic got criticism a couple of years ago when some people thought he was too cautious with Aidan O Shea and Cillian O Connor in Limerick after a head clash. He kept them on the line for a lengthy period for assessment.
Quote from: moysider on January 31, 2016, 09:41:35 PM
Should not be sacked. Doctor wanted him substituted when he was attending him but Keegan insisted he was ok to continue. Unless the Doctor dragged him off he was not leaving.
Obviously we need some guidelines put in place for a scenario like this where there are head injuries and a team doctor feels a player has possibility of concussion that the ref sends the player to the line like in the case of a blood injury. The player can then be assessed on the sideline like they do in rugby.
This would get rid of any ambiguity and unseemly rows between medical staff and players about coming off or not.
This medic got criticism a couple of years ago when some people thought he was too cautious with Aidan O Shea and Cillian O Connor in Limerick after a head clash. He kept them on the line for a lengthy period for assessment.
It is not up to the player. The very nature of concussion means they are in no way placed to make the call of whether they should continue. The doctor should make the call and inform the manager that he has to be taken off. And the manager should ALWAYS listen to medical advice.
This was clearly a failing of the medical & management team. However, saying the medical team should be sacked is going too far.
Should there be a 3rd party doctor in place to make these calls??
Agree with moysider. I think he should have been substituted and that the medical team need to be stronger there. They'll know that, but I do feel for them in the pressure they're going to get in the media in the coming week.
I heard James Horan talking about how the great medical team were coming back for this season. And he'd back their decision in a heartbeat if they thought a player should be removed, so it's a strange one today.
There's a lot of lads shouting about this issue of concussion. The problem is even the experts can't even agree on what can be done!
The truth of the matter is that within the medical world, it can't conclusively diagnose concussion pitch side. We have made a terrible mess about conveying this message to the wider population. So if we can't diagnose it all we can do is suspect it
Yes there are a few indicators of suspected concussion but no reliable conclusive test. That leaves us with a grey area of HIAs and SCAT tests that is not a solid medical science based diagnosis of concussion. This subjective nature of these tests leave the player, management and medical personnel in a tough situation full of maybes and probablys.
Management will want definites that medical teams can't supply. They'll rely on the "well it wasn't definite" answer to fall back on and leave him on the field. Therein lies the problem
With regard the six day return to play protocol, that's just another good guess along the lines of "rest up for a week and see how you are" medicine.
There needs to be an independent doctor who assess the player and with access to video footage of collisions to make the decision on a player.
Its a sport, and an amateur sport at that, so suspect case, uncertain or not, should mean immediate withdrawal for proper assessment. Sure, there will be cases where little turns out to be wrong, but overcautiousness is far preferable to the alternative. The potential outcomes of failing to act are well enough documented at this stage.
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:21:01 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on January 31, 2016, 08:13:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
No where near as bad as Enda Gilvarry and co. leaving Cian Hanley on after collapsing repeatedly with a cruciate tear v Kerry at minor in 2014.
Sadly Mayo are far from alone. Dublin left O'Gara totally frigged out on the field in the 2013 AI final themselves.
Big difference between o gara's torn hamstring and lee Keegan's head injury. With concussion another hit on lee Keegan could have had major repercussions. First game of the season and game already lost no excuse to leave him on
No excuse to leave any of the players listed on.
Talking through your arse as ever. A hamstring heals- your brain doesn't
Quote from: INDIANA on January 31, 2016, 11:23:33 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:21:01 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on January 31, 2016, 08:13:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
No where near as bad as Enda Gilvarry and co. leaving Cian Hanley on after collapsing repeatedly with a cruciate tear v Kerry at minor in 2014.
Sadly Mayo are far from alone. Dublin left O'Gara totally frigged out on the field in the 2013 AI final themselves.
Big difference between o gara's torn hamstring and lee Keegan's head injury. With concussion another hit on lee Keegan could have had major repercussions. First game of the season and game already lost no excuse to leave him on
No excuse to leave any of the players listed on.
Talking through your arse as ever. A hamstring heals- your brain doesn't
Not in 20 minutes young ladeen.
Quote from: dublin7 on January 31, 2016, 08:29:47 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 31, 2016, 08:22:33 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on January 31, 2016, 08:13:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
No where near as bad as Enda Gilvarry and co. leaving Cian Hanley on after collapsing repeatedly with a cruciate tear v Kerry at minor in 2014.
Sadly Mayo are far from alone. Dublin left O'Gara totally frigged out on the field in the 2013 AI final themselves.
Big difference between o gara's torn hamstring and lee Keegan's head injury. With concussion another hit on lee Keegan could have had major repercussions. First game of the season and game already lost no excuse to leave him on
Rory O'Carroll suffered a concussion in a high-profile incident in the 2013 All-Ireland football final but was left to play on for the final 16 minutes as Dublin had already used their five permitted substitutes.
Totally agree with you!
Agree he should have been taken off. Even in the last 2 years the medical knowledge of the effects of concussion in sport have come a long way. O'Carroll was in an all Ireland final with no sub to bring in so though he should have been taken off I can see why they didn't take him off (doesn't make it right & should have been taken off) Lee Keegan was playing 1st game of season and the game was lost for mayo. No benefit leaving him on
Part of the reason why Rory has taken a year off is due to head knocks. He;'s had two bad concussions in two years. He should have been taken off end of stor- but again he insisted on staying
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 11:25:03 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 31, 2016, 11:23:33 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:21:01 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on January 31, 2016, 08:13:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
No where near as bad as Enda Gilvarry and co. leaving Cian Hanley on after collapsing repeatedly with a cruciate tear v Kerry at minor in 2014.
Sadly Mayo are far from alone. Dublin left O'Gara totally frigged out on the field in the 2013 AI final themselves.
Big difference between o gara's torn hamstring and lee Keegan's head injury. With concussion another hit on lee Keegan could have had major repercussions. First game of the season and game already lost no excuse to leave him on
No excuse to leave any of the players listed on.
Talking through your arse as ever. A hamstring heals- your brain doesn't
Not in 20 minutes young ladeen.
I think playing in an AI final and winning it justifies the call. Hamstrings are easily treatable with the correct laser treatment so no lasting damage
O Carroll shouldn't have stayed on. but he insisted.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 31, 2016, 11:27:42 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 11:25:03 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 31, 2016, 11:23:33 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:21:01 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on January 31, 2016, 08:13:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 31, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
No where near as bad as Enda Gilvarry and co. leaving Cian Hanley on after collapsing repeatedly with a cruciate tear v Kerry at minor in 2014.
Sadly Mayo are far from alone. Dublin left O'Gara totally frigged out on the field in the 2013 AI final themselves.
Big difference between o gara's torn hamstring and lee Keegan's head injury. With concussion another hit on lee Keegan could have had major repercussions. First game of the season and game already lost no excuse to leave him on
No excuse to leave any of the players listed on.
Talking through your arse as ever. A hamstring heals- your brain doesn't
Not in 20 minutes young ladeen.
I think playing in an AI final and winning it justifies the call. Hamstrings are easily treatable with the correct laser treatment so no lasting damage
O Carroll shouldn't have stayed on. but he insisted.
No it doesn't. He helped neither himself or his team trying to play on in that state. O'Gara's man could so easily have been the one to overhaul a single point win too.
Oversight was badly needed on the line that day. The previous set-up had also managed to OK Alan Brogan playing against Mayo the year before, a player not able to run and who took the better part of two years to be fit enough to have a meaningful role for Dublin again.
Even the biggest of school yard boys are prone to utterly reckless use of players.
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 31, 2016, 08:22:33 PM
Rory O'Carroll suffered a concussion in a high-profile incident in the 2013 All-Ireland football final but was left to play on for the final 16 minutes as Dublin had already used their five permitted substitutes.
There probably should be an extra substitute allowed in the case of a doctor deeming that a player may be concussed. You can never be too careful with head injuries. At least if the player could be replaced there wouldn't be the same pressure from management and supporters to keep an injured player on the field. The only potential downside would be opening up the possibility of similar incidents to bloodgate in rugby a few years ago. Win at all costs is becoming the norm in inter county GAA and our games are the worse for it.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on February 01, 2016, 12:03:03 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 31, 2016, 08:22:33 PM
Rory O'Carroll suffered a concussion in a high-profile incident in the 2013 All-Ireland football final but was left to play on for the final 16 minutes as Dublin had already used their five permitted substitutes.
There probably should be an extra substitute allowed in the case of a doctor deeming that a player may be concussed. You can never be too careful with head injuries. At least if the player could be replaced there wouldn't be the same pressure from management and supporters to keep an injured player on the field. The only potential downside would be opening up the possibility of similar incidents to bloodgate in rugby a few years ago. Win at all costs is becoming the norm in inter county GAA and our games are the worse for it.
If management, including the medical team, are prone to that type of pressure and cannot put the welfare of the player first, then the decision should be taken out of their hands.
And as someone said earlier, head injuries should be treated like blood subs, perhaps with a mandatory, minimum duration, assessment period.
How many of you were actually at the game yesterday?
I kept an eye on Keegan afterwards, I saw him run for two defensive tackles, one in particular he was moving forward to join the attack which broke down, turned assessed which player he should track back after and then tore down the field to tackle the man with the ball, it was right under the main stand.
To say he was clearly in distress is pure nonsense. Yes leaving the pitch he was clearly in distress but prior to that there were no signs. Maybe he should have been taken off at the time, I thought the game was over, why wouldn't they. But to use it to have a cheap shot at a medical team who have a day job is bollix.
I was watching him on TV Mayo4Sam, and he looked like he was woozy after the hit, and he looked very distressed coming off, and when he was sitting down in the dugout afterwards. There was a few shots of him.
The fact of the matter here is if there is a serious head collision like that, the man should come off for an assessment at least of 10 minutes or so. The player will nearly always say he's grand, but that's no excuse. If he was hobbling around saying he was grand he'd be taken off regardless, if you have a sub available.
In the case of a head impact, either off the ground or off another man, the player should be brought off and given a chance to settle down and be observed in a calmer environment. It was ironic because I heard James Horan talking on Newstalk on Sunday morning about concussion and the Mayo staff being so proactive with Aidan O'Shea and Cillian O'Connor against Kerry, but I couldn't understand what they were at yesterday.
Rory O'Carroll in the AIF the same deal. What the player says in the immediate aftermath of the hit is irrelevant. How he reacts to the doctors when he's sat down off the pitch is more germane to whether he should play on or not. So I agree there should be a 10 minute concussion assessment 'bin', where you can be replaced by another sub, similar to the blood sub.
AZ my point was that between the hit and him being taken off he looked fine, to me seemed to be making decisions, basically looked like he always does.
Obviously when he could barely walk and had to be helped off the pitch it looked terrible and worrying.
But I don't think the medical team can be blamed, the lad looked fine between those two points.
The title of this thread is that they should be sacked, they shouldn't IMO
I do agree there should be a protocol for this kinda thing. Saying that a player should be taken off when their head impacts the ground wouldn't cut it IMO, too ambiguous, and too wide reaching
no point in arguing about yesterday . there no one on the mayo Team who would now try and justify the decision.
Sacking is too beig a punishment but maybe there couls be some reprimand for medical team no idea what? Public Warning maybe
Lets just hope this is another watershed moment in Player welfare
Speaking as someone who has had this happen to them 3 times definitely, and probably a 4th, I would definitely recommend that anyone who has a high impact collision with the ground or an opponent, where they stay down for a period, should have a mandatory assessment. If a sub could replace them for 10 minutes, it's not the end of the world.
They put the hands up - they got the call wrong. In fact, there shouldn't have been a decision to make. If there's a head impact, take him off for at least an assessment period (sounds like that needs to be catered for in playing rules).
However, this is one of the top intercounty medical teams, and they proved player welfare is top priority in the AISF replay in Limerick when Aidan O'Shea and Cillian O'Connor clashed heads. That arguably cost Mayo a place in the final, but it was the correct decision.
Calling for them to be sacked is a tabloidesque reaction, but it has at least brought the issue to the forefront in GAA player welfare.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't be sacking or reprimanding the medical team. They obviously acted in good faith, but they don't have the room to do a proper assessment in the middle of the pitch as a lad is telling them he's fine.
That's why I'd favour a mandatory replacement to just let everything cool down. I'm sure the medical team had doubts, and that's a horrible position to put them in.
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on February 01, 2016, 09:29:57 AM
How many of you were actually at the game yesterday?
I kept an eye on Keegan afterwards, I saw him run for two defensive tackles, one in particular he was moving forward to join the attack which broke down, turned assessed which player he should track back after and then tore down the field to tackle the man with the ball, it was right under the main stand.
To say he was clearly in distress is pure nonsense. Yes leaving the pitch he was clearly in distress but prior to that there were no signs. Maybe he should have been taken off at the time, I thought the game was over, why wouldn't they. But to use it to have a cheap shot at a medical team who have a day job is bollix.
He was involved in a big tackle about 8/9 mins after the initial one with Cadogen. It was after this that he had to go off. He probably was not 100% after the collision with Cadogen but the question is was he able to continue? I don't know the exact rules on concussion. Is there an on-field assessment? I would assume he passed these checks ok but wasn't 100% and after the second big hit. In fairness no one would be after such a collision. Either way it came back to haunt him.
The big question for me is what are the correct protocols and is the on field assessment a waste of time?
The whole point is that there are as many opinions on what should have happened as there are people commenting. It's time for a protocol to be enforced by rule to take the as much of uncertainty and subjective judgement out of it as possible. It shouldn't be hard. There's a template in the rugby procedure. I don't see why ours should be much different, except perhaps to err more on the side of caution. You get hit in the head, you go off for a medical assessment, regardless of what you say or the sideline says. The referee enforces it. Where no medical assessment is available, you go off and stay off.
And something to remember is that you can get a serious concussion without being hit in the head. A body collision that causes your head to accelerate relative to your body can concuss you.
Having had a few concussions over the years I can relate my own experience.
The results for the hit are not always immediately obvious even to the recipient. Further contact, making a hard physical effort such as hard sprint or even just the passage of time can bring the symptoms on. These can be quite distressing, dizziness, disorientation, nausea and headache can come a good time after the event, though there is always the disconcerting feeling that you are in somewhat of a 'bubble' immediately after the collision.
Exactly. That 'aura'. The feeling that your brain is swimming around in your head like a goldfish in a bowl.
I wouldn't be holding rugby up as an example of how to deal with concussions.
We are slowly watching the neurological disintegration of Johnny Sexton, who I am in no doubt will suffer a further concussion in the 6 nations.
Quote from: Jinxy on February 01, 2016, 11:57:07 AM
I wouldn't be holding rugby up as an example of how to deal with concussions.
We are slowly watching the neurological disintegration of Johnny Sexton, who I am in no doubt will suffer a further concussion in the 6 nations.
True, but on the counter to that, I saw the Munster team take immaculate care of Felix Jones and others. At least Rugby has the protocol for off field assessments, and I think we need that at least.
I don't mean to hold rugby out as an example, just to point out that they have a template we could use or adapt. Of course any protocol is only effective if it's used and its use is effectively policed.
Having said all that and stated that we need to implement a procedure, I heard a journalist (Damien Lawlor?) saying on Sean O'Rourke's show earlier that a protocol for head injuries had been introduced. I think he said before Christmas. He just said it in passing and nothing further was said about it. Does anybody know anything about this?
I thought something was already in place tbh.
However, nobody has said "the protocol wasn't followed", so maybe there is no protocol.
Summary principles of GAA concussion management guidelines:
- Concussion is a brain injury that needs to be taken seriously to protect the long term welfare of all players.
- Any player suspected of having sustained a concussion, should be removed immediately from the field and should not return to play on the same day.
- Where a Team Doctor is present, he must advise the person in charge of the team (i.e. Team Manager) in this regard and the player must not be allowed to continue his participation in the game.
- Concussion is an evolving injury. It is important to monitor the player after the injury for progressive deterioration.
- Concussion diagnosis is a clinical judgement – Use of the SCAT 3 can aid the doctor in his /her diagnosis.
- Players suspected of having a concussion, must have adequate rest of at least 24 hours and then must follow a gradual return to play protocol.
- Players must receive medical clearance (by a doctor) before returning to play.
https://gaelicplayers.com/TabId/86/ArtMID/421/ArticleID/374/Concussion-Management.aspx (https://gaelicplayers.com/TabId/86/ArtMID/421/ArticleID/374/Concussion-Management.aspx)
Seems pretty clear-cut to me.
QuoteWe are slowly watching the neurological disintegration of Johnny Sexton, who I am in no doubt will suffer a further concussion in the 6 nations.
It was only a matter of time before Johnny Sexton came into it. The papers have that incident completely overhyped. This thread is similar. It's very unlikely that Lee Keegan was concussed at all, the blow was to the top of his head. The recent Sexton blow was to his jaw.
Concussion is only likely if you get a clash to the temple area.
Our 2 lads in Limerick should have came back onto the pitch that day, I'm still awaiting the reason for the hold up.
Quote from: highorlow on February 01, 2016, 04:02:40 PM
QuoteWe are slowly watching the neurological disintegration of Johnny Sexton, who I am in no doubt will suffer a further concussion in the 6 nations.
It was only a matter of time before Johnny Sexton came into it. The papers have that incident completely overhyped. This thread is similar. It's very unlikely that Lee Keegan was concussed at all, the blow was to the top of his head. The recent Sexton blow was to his jaw.
Concussion is only likely if you get a clash to the temple area.
Our 2 lads in Limerick should have came back onto the pitch that day, I'm still awaiting the reason for the hold up.
That's just not true. I got concussion from hitting the back of my head off the ground twice, and getting punch in the back of the head a third time. The fourth time was an elbow to the temple area/side of the head.
QuoteThat's just not true. I got concussion from hitting the back of my head off the ground twice, and getting punch in the back of the head a third time. The fourth time was an elbow to the temple area/side of the head.
The fourth blow did it.
That was some scrap you were in, what the f**k did you do to your opponent?
4 separate concussions :)
The worst row I was ever in was in an U21 game. I ended up with two horns on the top of my head, and two bumps on my chin. But no concussion :) You should have seen the other fella though, he was in bits. Nearly broke his knuckles I'd say.
Once you've had a couple of concussions you don't even need the impact to be around the head area to sustain another one.
It's almost like a whiplash effect.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO HIT YOUR HEAD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyRBlSAfb_k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyRBlSAfb_k)
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 01, 2016, 04:11:10 PM
4 separate concussions :)
The worst row I was ever in was in an U21 game. I ended up with two horns on the top of my head, and two bumps on my chin. But no concussion :) You should have seen the other fella though, he was in bits. Nearly broke his knuckles I'd say.
You shouldn't be posting any comments so.
Don't understand that comment Mac? Why not?
To be honest, I'm pretty annoyed at the ham-fisted way the Mayo management team dealt with this, the only saving grace being the statement which acknowledged the mistake.
All the papers today carry images of a clearly distressed Keegan being removed from the field of play 10 minutes after sustaining the initial injury.
This brings the association into disrepute, makes it look amateurish and makes a mockery of player welfare.
The only silver lining here is that hopefully the next time a medical team is faced with this decision,this incident and the subsequent uproar will be at the forefront of their minds.
It shouldn't take that, but if the end result is a player not being put back in harms way, I'll live with it.
(http://www.newstalk.com/content/000/images/000143/147800_54_news_hub_135036_656x500.jpg)
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 01, 2016, 04:36:12 PM
Don't understand that comment Mac? Why not?
Health and safety reasons only..
I'm grand. I swear. Where's teddy?
Quote from: Jinxy on February 01, 2016, 04:37:45 PM
To be honest, I'm pretty annoyed at the ham-fisted way the Mayo management team dealt with this, the only saving grace being the statement which acknowledged the mistake.
All the papers today carry images of a clearly distressed Keegan being removed from the field of play 10 minutes after sustaining the initial injury.
This brings the association into disrepute, makes it look amateurish and makes a mockery of player welfare.
The only silver lining here is that hopefully the next time a medical team is faced with this decision,this incident and the subsequent uproar will be at the forefront of their minds.
It shouldn't take that, but if the end result is a player not being put back in harms way, I'll live with it.
(http://www.newstalk.com/content/000/images/000143/147800_54_news_hub_135036_656x500.jpg)
To make things worse, TV showed clips of Keegan sitting in the dugout, holding his head in his hands,
without wearing a tracksuit top or other cover. Sideline mentors should always instruct subbed players to put on layers when coming off, avoid chills or worse ailments.
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on February 01, 2016, 09:29:57 AM
How many of you were actually at the game yesterday?
I kept an eye on Keegan afterwards, I saw him run for two defensive tackles, one in particular he was moving forward to join the attack which broke down, turned assessed which player he should track back after and then tore down the field to tackle the man with the ball, it was right under the main stand.
To say he was clearly in distress is pure nonsense. Yes leaving the pitch he was clearly in distress but prior to that there were no signs. Maybe he should have been taken off at the time, I thought the game was over, why wouldn't they. But to use it to have a cheap shot at a medical team who have a day job is bollix.
Spot on Mayo4Sam. This thread is a textbook case of hurling from the ditch and second-guessing.
The Mayo medical team put their hands up to a mistake that they might not have even made (as per references to the second collision which may have been the one that did for him). Nothing else they could do.
Maybe the GPA could do some research on setting up a concussion protocol. It won't buy them as many friends in the media as bringing everyone over the Boston on the tear in the bleak midwinter, but maybe it'd be a bit closer to their purported remit.
Also, Cadogan and Keegan exchanged tweets saying no hard feelings last night and this morning. That should go on a record somewhere too.
What has the two of them tweeting each other got to do with anything?
Quote from: Jinxy on February 01, 2016, 09:28:12 PM
What has the two of them tweeting each other got to do with anything?
It's a show of sportsmanship. Sportsmanship used to be something we valued, once.
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on February 01, 2016, 09:30:27 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on February 01, 2016, 09:28:12 PM
What has the two of them tweeting each other got to do with anything?
It's a show of sportsmanship. Sportsmanship used to be something we valued, once.
Eoin Cadogan @cads3 Jan 31
Fair and whole hearted challenge today between myself and @leeroykeegan.Speedy recovery mate👍#emptiedeachother🙈
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Lee Keegan @leeroykeegan Jan 31
@cads3 all good buddy! Same to you, well deserved today 👍 #airheads
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8:57 PM - 31 Jan 2016 · Details
Do we always have to call for sackings these days?
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 01, 2016, 09:57:23 PM
Do we always have to call for sackings these days?
+1. The fella that started and titled this thread should be banned!
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on February 01, 2016, 09:20:26 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on February 01, 2016, 09:29:57 AM
How many of you were actually at the game yesterday?
I kept an eye on Keegan afterwards, I saw him run for two defensive tackles, one in particular he was moving forward to join the attack which broke down, turned assessed which player he should track back after and then tore down the field to tackle the man with the ball, it was right under the main stand.
To say he was clearly in distress is pure nonsense. Yes leaving the pitch he was clearly in distress but prior to that there were no signs. Maybe he should have been taken off at the time, I thought the game was over, why wouldn't they. But to use it to have a cheap shot at a medical team who have a day job is bollix.
Spot on Mayo4Sam. This thread is a textbook case of hurling from the ditch and second-guessing.
The Mayo medical team put their hands up to a mistake that they might not have even made (as per references to the second collision which may have been the one that did for him). Nothing else they could do.
Maybe the GPA could do some research on setting up a concussion protocol. It won't buy them as many friends in the media as bringing everyone over the Boston on the tear in the bleak midwinter, but maybe it'd be a bit closer to their purported remit.
Also, Cadogan and Keegan exchanged tweets saying no hard feelings last night and this morning. That should go on a record somewhere too.
Concussion protocol is after a smack like that you leave the field.
to say anything else is bullshit
Had Keegan received another blow to the head in those ten minutes we could be having a different conversation
Rory O Carroll was he same in 2013- all ireland or no all ireland he should have been taken off. Had he been he wouldn't be taking a year out now.
Anyone trying to compare that to a hamstring is deranged. We've all finished out matches injured
Quote from: INDIANA on February 01, 2016, 10:53:32 PM
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on February 01, 2016, 09:20:26 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on February 01, 2016, 09:29:57 AM
How many of you were actually at the game yesterday?
I kept an eye on Keegan afterwards, I saw him run for two defensive tackles, one in particular he was moving forward to join the attack which broke down, turned assessed which player he should track back after and then tore down the field to tackle the man with the ball, it was right under the main stand.
To say he was clearly in distress is pure nonsense. Yes leaving the pitch he was clearly in distress but prior to that there were no signs. Maybe he should have been taken off at the time, I thought the game was over, why wouldn't they. But to use it to have a cheap shot at a medical team who have a day job is bollix.
Spot on Mayo4Sam. This thread is a textbook case of hurling from the ditch and second-guessing.
The Mayo medical team put their hands up to a mistake that they might not have even made (as per references to the second collision which may have been the one that did for him). Nothing else they could do.
Maybe the GPA could do some research on setting up a concussion protocol. It won't buy them as many friends in the media as bringing everyone over the Boston on the tear in the bleak midwinter, but maybe it'd be a bit closer to their purported remit.
Also, Cadogan and Keegan exchanged tweets saying no hard feelings last night and this morning. That should go on a record somewhere too.
Concussion protocol is after a smack like that you leave the field.
to say anything else is bullshit
Had Keegan received another blow to the head in those ten minutes we could be having a different conversation
Rory O Carroll was he same in 2013- all ireland or no all ireland he should have been taken off. Had he been he wouldn't be taking a year out now.
Anyone trying to compare that to a hamstring is deranged. We've all finished out matches injured
I've never finished out a match :'(
Quote from: INDIANA on February 01, 2016, 10:53:32 PM
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on February 01, 2016, 09:20:26 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on February 01, 2016, 09:29:57 AM
How many of you were actually at the game yesterday?
I kept an eye on Keegan afterwards, I saw him run for two defensive tackles, one in particular he was moving forward to join the attack which broke down, turned assessed which player he should track back after and then tore down the field to tackle the man with the ball, it was right under the main stand.
To say he was clearly in distress is pure nonsense. Yes leaving the pitch he was clearly in distress but prior to that there were no signs. Maybe he should have been taken off at the time, I thought the game was over, why wouldn't they. But to use it to have a cheap shot at a medical team who have a day job is bollix.
Spot on Mayo4Sam. This thread is a textbook case of hurling from the ditch and second-guessing.
The Mayo medical team put their hands up to a mistake that they might not have even made (as per references to the second collision which may have been the one that did for him). Nothing else they could do.
Maybe the GPA could do some research on setting up a concussion protocol. It won't buy them as many friends in the media as bringing everyone over the Boston on the tear in the bleak midwinter, but maybe it'd be a bit closer to their purported remit.
Also, Cadogan and Keegan exchanged tweets saying no hard feelings last night and this morning. That should go on a record somewhere too.
Concussion protocol is after a smack like that you leave the field.
to say anything else is bullshit
Had Keegan received another blow to the head in those ten minutes we could be having a different conversation
Rory O Carroll was he same in 2013- all ireland or no all ireland he should have been taken off. Had he been he wouldn't be taking a year out now.
Anyone trying to compare that to a hamstring is deranged. We've all finished out matches injured
True. While Keegan did not get another direct belt to the head after, he was working hard and would have been in contact again. As already been said it doesn t need another head hit for things to get serious. Any jarring or whiplash will cause further scrambling of the brain. Scary stuff.
Maybe this incident will cause some guidelines to be brought in and stuff like this does not happen. The Mayo doctor wanted him off, that was clear. When Keegan insisted on being ok, and on continuing ( and got thick about it), what then?
I think the ref. should make the decision that the player is taken off for assessment (like a blood situation), when the doctor has misgivings about a head injury. If there was a system in place then players would not have any veto about their condition to continue and that would be safer imo. Players accept when they are bleeding they have to come off for treatment. This would become normal practice with head injuries as well.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/toms-s-my-jaw-was-broken-i-was-concussedi-was-cryingi-still-would-have-trained-with-kerry-the-following-night-if-it-was-on-34415483.html
I wouldn't be too hard on the Mayo medical people , but I would like to see definite procedures in place (for all levels)
Quote from: twohands!!! on February 02, 2016, 09:13:44 AM
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/toms-s-my-jaw-was-broken-i-was-concussedi-was-cryingi-still-would-have-trained-with-kerry-the-following-night-if-it-was-on-34415483.html
I wouldn't be too hard on the Mayo medical people , but I would like to see definite procedures in place (for all levels)
Hi last sentence in that article is the real predicament that faces players and teams at IC level. It's easy be wise after the fact but it's when so much is on the line and who is going to win out that's the real call. I also have a feeling this whole issue will get a lot more airtime as the year goes on.
Quote from: moysider on February 02, 2016, 12:05:15 AM
True. While Keegan did not get another direct belt to the head after, he was working hard and would have been in contact again. As already been said it doesn t need another head hit for things to get serious. Any jarring or whiplash will cause further scrambling of the brain. Scary stuff.
Maybe this incident will cause some guidelines to be brought in and stuff like this does not happen. The Mayo doctor wanted him off, that was clear. When Keegan insisted on being ok, and on continuing ( and got thick about it), what then?
I think the ref. should make the decision that the player is taken off for assessment (like a blood situation), when the doctor has misgivings about a head injury. If there was a system in place then players would not have any veto about their condition to continue and that would be safer imo. Players accept when they are bleeding they have to come off for treatment. This would become normal practice with head injuries as well.
In soccer if a player goes down and someone comes on the field to treat them the player must leave and re-enter the field of play before they can re-join the match. This should be the same case in GAA. If a guy is down and doctors need to treat him he should leave the field of play for some sort of assessment. I don't think it be down to the ref to administer this either. They have enough to do.
The management teams associated with every squad in the country need to sit their players down and let them know in no uncertain terms that it is the medical team's call.
None of this "He wanted to go back on" rubbish.
What sort of an excuse is that when the player hardly knows which way is up or down?
The medical team need to know they have the full support of the management in this.
As has been pointed out, there is an exponential increase in risk when you put someone who already has a brain injury back on the field in a physical team sport.
Their capacity to protect themselves is greatly reduced and that second impact can tip the scales and make a situation irretrievable, similar to the case of that poor young lad playing schools rugby up the north.
No player should be lauded either for 'getting on with it'.
Look at american football.
Look at professional wrestling.
Look at boxing.
Wait and see what happens in rugby.
It is an appalling tragedy to see the utter devastation that acquired brain injury can wreak on the lives of current and former athletes, and their families.
We're talking depression, addiction, suicide, assaults, murders.
This isn't another one of those 'modern' creations that we can pay lip service to from a PR perspective whilst not really taking it seriously.
The potential consequences are very real.
Can we change the thread title to something more meaningful - this is a worthwhile discussion to have..
Quote from: highorlow on February 01, 2016, 04:02:40 PM
QuoteWe are slowly watching the neurological disintegration of Johnny Sexton, who I am in no doubt will suffer a further concussion in the 6 nations.
It was only a matter of time before Johnny Sexton came into it. The papers have that incident completely overhyped. This thread is similar. It's very unlikely that Lee Keegan was concussed at all, the blow was to the top of his head. The recent Sexton blow was to his jaw.
Concussion is only likely if you get a clash to the temple area.
Our 2 lads in Limerick should have came back onto the pitch that day, I'm still awaiting the reason for the hold up.
One of the most ignorant things i have read on the subject, im amazed with the amount of info available that someone would have that opinion !
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11264856
This is a long article but well worth reading, some of it is frightening
I had three weeks of no games and I thought that would sort me out. But heading into my comeback match I was knocked out at training. It wasn't even a head clash. One of the boys just ran a decoy line and bumped into me and I was knocked out. When you are getting knocked out and no one is even touching your head you realise things have got pretty bad.
This should also be required reading for people who don't understand how concussion can continue to affect a player in the short to medium-term following the initial injury.
http://www.balls.ie/rugby/o-gara-sexton-head-injury-concern/173665 (http://www.balls.ie/rugby/o-gara-sexton-head-injury-concern/173665)
Ronan O'Gara has pulled back the curtain on what Johnny Sexton has been going through with his head injuries. According to the Irish Times, O'Gara has expressed concerns over Sexton's slow recovery.
He has struggled in training ever since his clash with Rob Kearney during last month's test against Australia.
"I think one in three sessions is troublesome at the minute, he does two in three sessions with no symptoms but without doing contact, and that would obviously worry you."
Reading between the lines, it appears highly unlikely that Sexton would be back for their fixture with Toulouse on December 28th as reported by Midi Olympique, but much closer to the 12 week resting period suggested by French neurologist Dr Jean-Francois Cherman.
So a month after sustaining the concussion, one in three NON-CONTACT training sessions were still causing him problems.
That's just doing passing & kick drills etc.
Throwing a ball made his head hurt.
Think about that for a second.
Apparently Keegan is out for the rest of the league.
With what injury? Concussion related or something else? Looked like he got a bang on the cheekbone in the collision too. Is that broken?
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 02, 2016, 01:58:38 PM
With what injury? Concussion related or something else? Looked like he got a bang on the cheekbone in the collision too. Is that broken?
Don't know. Just have that info.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on February 02, 2016, 02:07:55 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 02, 2016, 01:58:38 PM
With what injury? Concussion related or something else? Looked like he got a bang on the cheekbone in the collision too. Is that broken?
Don't know. Just have that info.
And you got that info from where? Direct from Keegan?? Direct from Mayo GAA? Or did you read it as gossip on another forum and chuck it on here to give it legs?
Quote from: Gaaggle on February 02, 2016, 03:15:48 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on February 02, 2016, 02:07:55 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 02, 2016, 01:58:38 PM
With what injury? Concussion related or something else? Looked like he got a bang on the cheekbone in the collision too. Is that broken?
Don't know. Just have that info.
And you got that info from where? Direct from Keegan?? Direct from Mayo GAA? Or did you read it as gossip on another forum and chuck it on here to give it legs?
You've some neck.
Farr isn't someone known to deal in ideal chatter.
I cannot believe you're in again criticising a poster and interfering .
Quote from: Syferus on February 02, 2016, 03:38:07 PM
Quote from: Gaaggle on February 02, 2016, 03:15:48 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on February 02, 2016, 02:07:55 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 02, 2016, 01:58:38 PM
With what injury? Concussion related or something else? Looked like he got a bang on the cheekbone in the collision too. Is that broken?
Don't know. Just have that info.
And you got that info from where? Direct from Keegan?? Direct from Mayo GAA? Or did you read it as gossip on another forum and chuck it on here to give it legs?
You've some neck.
Farr isn't someone known to deal in ideal chatter.
Doesn't know why he's out for the league, he 'just has that info' sounds like idle chatter to me. If he's heard something concrete share it, not throw out news as big as that and then not provide any proof it's even true.
Quote from: larryin89 on February 02, 2016, 03:49:58 PM
I cannot believe you're in again criticising a poster and interfering .
Is that directed to me? And if so can you show me where I've interfered and criticised a poster before?
Could the three posters above me please leave the thread.
Quote from: Jinxy on February 02, 2016, 03:57:36 PM
Could the three posters above me please leave the thread.
Eh let me think about that...
No?
Didn't realise we're all supposed to agree with what everyone else says and take rumours as fact without questioning them! Must re-read the rules again eh?
Quote from: Jinxy on February 02, 2016, 03:57:36 PM
Could the three posters above me please leave the thread.
I'm ok where I am thanks.
Quote from: Gaaggle on February 02, 2016, 03:15:48 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on February 02, 2016, 02:07:55 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 02, 2016, 01:58:38 PM
With what injury? Concussion related or something else? Looked like he got a bang on the cheekbone in the collision too. Is that broken?
Don't know. Just have that info.
And you got that info from where? Direct from Keegan?? Direct from Mayo GAA? Or did you read it as gossip on another forum and chuck it on here to give it legs?
Neither Keegan, nor Mayo GAA. I didn't read any other forum today either. My sister works with one of the Mayo management. If she's wrong, I'll accept responsibility for posting on the spur of the moment.
Quote from: Jinxy on February 02, 2016, 11:13:44 AM
The management teams associated with every squad in the country need to sit their players down and let them know in no uncertain terms that it is the medical team's call.
None of this "He wanted to go back on" rubbish.
What sort of an excuse is that when the player hardly knows which way is up or down?
The medical team need to know they have the full support of the management in this.
As has been pointed out, there is an exponential increase in risk when you put someone who already has a brain injury back on the field in a physical team sport.
Their capacity to protect themselves is greatly reduced and that second impact can tip the scales and make a situation irretrievable, similar to the case of that poor young lad playing schools rugby up the north.
No player should be lauded either for 'getting on with it'.
Look at american football.
Look at professional wrestling.
Look at boxing.
Wait and see what happens in rugby.
It is an appalling tragedy to see the utter devastation that acquired brain injury can wreak on the lives of current and former athletes, and their families.
We're talking depression, addiction, suicide, assaults, murders.
This isn't another one of those 'modern' creations that we can pay lip service to from a PR perspective whilst not really taking it seriously.
The potential consequences are very real.
+1
Good man, Jinxy, that's 100% bang on!
Just throwing this out there as I thought this when I watched the game live.
Is it a case that a new manager and new management teams judgement may have been clouded as they were being hammered and just wanted him to stay on?
Quote from: heffo on February 02, 2016, 11:19:25 AM
Can we change the thread title to something more meaningful - this is a worthwhile discussion to have..
+1. The discussion is better and more serious than the thread title suggests.
Quote from: ck on February 02, 2016, 08:01:33 PM
Just throwing this out there as I thought this when I watched the game live.
Is it a case that a new manager and new management teams judgement may have been clouded as they were being hammered and just wanted him to stay on?
I doubt that very much. There was nothing to be gained by that.
Quote from: ludermor on February 02, 2016, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: highorlow on February 01, 2016, 04:02:40 PM
QuoteWe are slowly watching the neurological disintegration of Johnny Sexton, who I am in no doubt will suffer a further concussion in the 6 nations.
It was only a matter of time before Johnny Sexton came into it. The papers have that incident completely overhyped. This thread is similar. It's very unlikely that Lee Keegan was concussed at all, the blow was to the top of his head. The recent Sexton blow was to his jaw.
Concussion is only likely if you get a clash to the temple area.
Our 2 lads in Limerick should have came back onto the pitch that day, I'm still awaiting the reason for the hold up.
One of the most ignorant things i have read on the subject, im amazed with the amount of info available that someone would have that opinion !
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11264856
This is a long article but well worth reading, some of it is frightening
I had three weeks of no games and I thought that would sort me out. But heading into my comeback match I was knocked out at training. It wasn't even a head clash. One of the boys just ran a decoy line and bumped into me and I was knocked out. When you are getting knocked out and no one is even touching your head you realise things have got pretty bad.
When reading that article parts of it reminded me of Jonathan Brown's story. JB was a full forward with Brisbane Lions in the AFL before retiring in June 2014 after many serious concussion incidents. He was known as a courageous player with no regard for his own personal safety, which is apparently a positive here. He would travel 'back with the flight of the ball' and 'crash packs' meaning he was following the ball coming over his own head and had no idea what was coming the other way. The way the mark is officiated in AFL also means that high speed mid-air collisions are inevitable, even encouraged, although they have recently made players accountable when they contact an opponents head.
I remember watching an interview with him some months after when he said he still wasn't right, that he was constantly angry about the house, regularly slurring his words, and even his speech pattern was different (he has a slow QLD drawl at the best of times). Can't find a decent commentary article, and I haven't got around to reading his book yet, but the below link explains that his doctor was willing to break the patient-dr confidentiality if he wouldn't retire of his own will.
http://theconversation.com/repeated-head-injuries-highlight-gaps-in-sports-concussion-management-28395 (http://theconversation.com/repeated-head-injuries-highlight-gaps-in-sports-concussion-management-28395)