IFC
Preliminary Round - 18/10/15
Down (Ballymartin, An Riocht, St John's, Bredagh, Loughinisland) v Derry (Greenlough/Craigbane)
Quarter Finals - 1/11/15
Antrim v Fermanagh (Belcoo, Irvinestown, Kinawley, Teemore)
Donegal v Armagh (Clann Eireann, Madden, Whitecross, Grange)
Cavan v Monaghan
Tyrone v Derry/Down
JFC
Preliminary Round - 18/10/15
Armagh (Tullysaran, Clonmore, Ballyhegan, Crossmaglen II's, Cullyhanna II's, Killeavy II's) v Fermanagh (Brookeboro, Aghadrumsee, Coa, Belnaleck)
Quarter Finals - 1/11/15
Down (Dundrum, Glasdrumman, Teconnaught, Ardglass) v Antrim
Donegal v Cavan (Cornafean, Kill, Mountnugent, Templeport)
Tyrone (Aghaloo, Brackaville) v Derry
Monaghan v Armagh/Fermanagh
Armagh IFC final:
Clann Éireann Lurgan v St Killian's Whitecross
Armagh JFC Final:
O'Connell's Tullysaran v Clonmore Robert Emmet's
Down IFC Final
Loughinisland V An Riocht
Down JFC Semi Finals
Dundrum V Glasdrumman
Teconnaught V Ardglass
Quote from: TheClutch on September 23, 2015, 11:12:30 AM
Down IFC Final
Loughinisland V An Riocht
Down JFC Semi Finals
Dundrum V Glasdrumman
Teconnaught V Ardglass
Who would be favorites for this one? I had thought An Riocht were a senior club, is Marty Clarke back playing? Down champions have Derrys in the preliminary round and both our finalists would be a decent enough test I would think.
Quote from: oakleaflad on September 23, 2015, 11:32:47 AM
Quote from: TheClutch on September 23, 2015, 11:12:30 AM
Down IFC Final
Loughinisland V An Riocht
Down JFC Semi Finals
Dundrum V Glasdrumman
Teconnaught V Ardglass
Who would be favorites for this one? I had thought An Riocht were a senior club, is Marty Clarke back playing? Down champions have Derrys in the preliminary round and both our finalists would be a decent enough test I would think.
I'd say it would be tight encounter, simply because of the occasion and they are two good teams. But at a push I would make Loughinisland slight favourites on league form and championship performance.
Marty Clarke is back playing for the club, An Riocht were victim to many of their players immigrating, which led to their slide down to intermediate grade. Marty's older brother John Clarke, who played for Down in 2010 at full forward, also transferred to St. Johns at the start of the year due to marrying a girl from that neck of the woods.
Loughinisland played in two SFC finals in 2008 and 2009 and would have a few players still playing from that time and being able to call on that experience could be a factor in getting them over the line.
Who are the Derry finalists?
Semi Final Stage in Antrim
Antrim IFC
Glenavy V Rasharkin
Dunloy v Gort Na Mona
Antrim JFC
Glenravel v Ardoyne
Eire Og V Davitts
Tyrone IFC
Cookstown/Edendork v Urney
Tyrone JFC
Brackaville V Aghaloo
Monaghan
Junior Final
Blackhill V Rockcorry - Sunday 27th Sept.
Blackhills 3rd Junior final in 3 years and Rock were a surprise senior club 2 years ago but suffered badly with injuries and loss of players. Rebuilt well this year.
Intermediate Final
Doohamlet V Carrick - Sunday 11th Oct
Both have been senior clubs in recent past and are a mix of young and old.
IFC
Preliminary Round - 18/10/15
Down (An Riocht, Loughinisland) v Derry (Greenlough/Craigbane)
Quarter Finals - 1/11/15
Antrim (Glenavy, Rasharkin, Dunloy, Gort na Mona) v Fermanagh (Irvinestown)
Donegal (Fanad Gaels, Naomh Columcille, Bundoran, Aodh Ruadh) v Armagh (Clann Eireann, Whitecross)
Cavan v Monaghan (Doohamlet, Carrickmacross)
Tyrone (Edendork, Urney) v Derry/Down
JFC
Preliminary Round - 18/10/15
Armagh (Tullysaran, Clonmore) v Fermanagh (Brookeboro, Aghadrumsee, Coa, Belnaleck)
Quarter Finals - 1/11/15
Down (Glasdrumman, Ardglass) v Antrim (Glenravel, Ardoyne, Eire Og, Davitts)
Donegal v Cavan (Templeport)
Tyrone (Aghaloo, Brackaville) v Derry
Monaghan v Armagh/Fermanagh
Derry Intermediate Final: Greenlough 2-17 Craigbane 0-9
Clann Éireann and Tullysaran won Inter & Junior titles yesterday in Armagh.
The list of Ulster IFC participants is a lot clearer after the weekend
Donegal IFC final is :Bundoran v Fanad Gaels
Greenlough won Derry IFC
Irvinestown won Fermanagh IFC
Loughlinisland won Down IFC
Ballyhaise won Cavan IFC
Edendork won Tyrone IFC
IFC
Preliminary Round - 18/10/15
Down (Loughinisland) v Derry (Greenlough)
Quarter Finals - 1/11/15
Antrim (Glenavy, Rasharkin, Dunloy, Gort na Mona) v Fermanagh (Irvinestown)
Donegal (Fanad Gaels, Bundoran) v Armagh (Clann Eireann)
Cavan v Monaghan (Doohamlet, Carrickmacross)
Tyrone (Edendork) v Derry/Down
JFC
Preliminary Round - 18/10/15
Armagh (Tullysaran) v Fermanagh (Brookeboro, Aghadrumsee, Coa, Belnaleck)
Quarter Finals - 1/11/15
Down (Glasdrumman, Ardglass) v Antrim (Glenravel, Ardoyne, Eire Og, Davitts)
Donegal v Cavan (Templeport)
Tyrone (Brackaville) v Derry
Monaghan v Armagh/Fermanagh
Loughinisland hammered a Martin Clarke led An Riocht in yesterday's Down IFC final. 12 points in it at the end.
Greenlough will be a massive test but Id guess that both are probably operating at a similar level.
Rockcorry won the Monaghan Junior FC. They'll take some stopping in ulster. They were senior two years ago and were too good to be junior. They only ended up in junior because of their paper thin squad was decimated last year.
Doohamlet won the Monaghan IFC with a storming second half display. They'll be looking to make a serious impact in Ulster. It's their 3rd IFC title in 6 years I think. Far too good for intermediate but don't have the squad depth to compete in senior.
Glasdrumman won Down JFC handy enough today. Connaire Harrison 2-06. Class act. Down have a woeful record in the Ulster JFC so don't know how they will fare.
Antrim IFC Final
Dunloy v. Glenavy
Antrim JFC Final
Glenravel v. Davitts
Both games on Sat 17 Oct
Quote from: DownFanatic on October 05, 2015, 04:10:40 PM
Loughinisland hammered a Martin Clarke led An Riocht in yesterday's Down IFC final. 12 points in it at the end.
Greenlough will be a massive test but Id guess that both are probably operating at a similar level.
These two sides play this weekend... Greenlough are 9/4 am I missing something?
Quote from: Pub Bore on October 13, 2015, 12:26:49 PM
Antrim IFC Final
Dunloy v. Glenavy
Antrim JFC Final
Glenravel v. Davitts
Both games on Sat 17 Oct
Intermediate Final
Dunloy 0-05 Glenavy 0-15
Junior Final
Glenravel 0-06 Davitts 1-07
Quote from: Pub Bore on October 17, 2015, 09:54:48 PM
Quote from: Pub Bore on October 13, 2015, 12:26:49 PM
Antrim IFC Final
Dunloy v. Glenavy
Antrim JFC Final
Glenravel v. Davitts
Both games on Sat 17 Oct
Intermediate Final
Dunloy 0-05 Glenavy 0-15
Junior Final
Glenravel 0-06 Davitts 1-07
What sort of outfit are Davitts?
Theyd be handy enough with a full side they were missing 3 or 4 players today due to Irish League commitments (Sean O'Neill Crusaders keeper class act) and still won. They won Junior 2 years ago but have since lost their captain who ironically will be playing for Tullysaran in the ulster junior also. Ive heard good reports about Glassdrumman though so I would have to fancy Glassdrumman to win as they could go deep into the all ireland? They were a great team on the old celebrity banisteor quite a few years back.
10 point win for loughinisland today, Down look to have strong representatives in all three grades this year despite our poor record in these competitions in general.
Coa won at the weekend against the Armagh champions in the JFC I believe.
I would have Rockcorry as pretty strong favourites to win the Ulster outright. They were playing senior 2 seasons ago but dropped down to junior due to lads being away and a few injuries. They have a lot of them back now and are pushing hard. Loughanisland will give the Intermediate a fair rattle and it will take a very good team to beat them. Clann Eireann are decent, Doohamlet from Monaghan are very strong. Can't say I know much about the rest but I'd say it will be between the Down men and Doohamlet.
Just want to give a mention to Faughanvale who won their game in the Junior championship at the weekend. This is a Derry clubs first win in the Ulster Junior since 2008.
Rockcorry/Templeport JFC final?
Loughinisland are looking good for the IFC. Have got by two tricky games already. What sort of outfit are Doohamlet?
Quote from: DownFanatic on November 03, 2015, 01:09:56 PM
Rockcorry/Templeport JFC final?
Loughinisland are looking good for the IFC. Have got by two tricky games already. What sort of outfit are Doohamlet?
fairly strong I would say, they beat us in 2010 and reached the final that year. Monaghan teams have reached 3 of the last 5 finals at this grade.
Quote from: general_lee on November 03, 2015, 01:24:52 PM
Quote from: DownFanatic on November 03, 2015, 01:09:56 PM
Rockcorry/Templeport JFC final?
Loughinisland are looking good for the IFC. Have got by two tricky games already. What sort of outfit are Doohamlet?
fairly strong I would say, they beat us in 2010 and reached the final that year. Monaghan teams have reached 3 of the last 5 finals at this grade.
Yeah, I'd agree with that about Doohamlet. A dogged team at this level. They've been narrowly beaten by the eventual all Ireland champions at this level in 2010 (lisnaskea) and 2012 (cookstown). They have added some outstanding young players since 2012 especially Barry McGinn. Saying that Colin Walshe really stands out at this level. They won't fear Loughinisland.
Rockcorry took the foot of the gas against Coa, but I think with the right focus they'll have the firepower to win the JFC. Their full forward line of McGeough. McGuirk and Smyth have all played at minor or u-21 for Monaghan.
Odds are out for JFC AND IFC
1400 Templeport v Faughanvale 8/13 13/2 13/8
14:00 Glasdrumman v Rockcorry 10/11 13/2 11/10
IFC
Glenavy V Bundoran 13/8 13/2 8/13
Doohamlet 13/8 Draw 13/2 Loughinisland 8/13
Glenavy worth a punt v bundoran? This in omagh?
Quote from: SaffronHeart on November 09, 2015, 08:33:40 PM
Odds are out for JFC AND IFC
1400 Templeport v Faughanvale 8/13 13/2 13/8
14:00 Glasdrumman v Rockcorry 10/11 13/2 11/10
IFC
Glenavy V Bundoran 13/8 13/2 8/13
Doohamlet 13/8 Draw 13/2 Loughinisland 8/13
who is offering those prices?
PP and I'd hold off on glenavy. Anyone any inside Knowledge?
Quote from: SaffronHeart on November 14, 2015, 02:19:28 AM
PP and I'd hold off on glenavy. Anyone any inside Knowledge?
Personally I'd fancy Bundoran to edge it. Clann Eireann scored for fun all year in Armagh and they were held to something like 1-9 AET in the quarter final. That said I wouldn't know a whole lot about Glenavy, who and where are their danger men?
Seen Bundoran on Sunday and I don't think they are on the same level as Loughinisland.
Rockcorry looking good.
Ulster Int Final Result
Realt na Mara 0:7 (7)
Loughinisland 4:1 (13)
Quote from: Line Ball on November 29, 2015, 03:49:28 PM
Ulster Int Final Result
Realt na Mara 0:7 (7)
Loughinisland 4:1 (13)
Thats a disgrace, you shouldn't be allowed to win a game with a scoreline like that.
Quote from: theticklemister on November 29, 2015, 04:05:16 PM
Quote from: Line Ball on November 29, 2015, 03:49:28 PM
Ulster Int Final Result
Realt na Mara 0:7 (7)
Loughinisland 4:1 (13)
Thats a disgrace, you shouldn't be allowed to win a game with a scoreline like that.
We all know that goals win games. Must have been poor conditions
Quote from: Line Ball on November 29, 2015, 04:09:12 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on November 29, 2015, 04:05:16 PM
Quote from: Line Ball on November 29, 2015, 03:49:28 PM
Ulster Int Final Result
Realt na Mara 0:7 (7)
Loughinisland 4:1 (13)
Thats a disgrace, you shouldn't be allowed to win a game with a scoreline like that.
We all know that goals win games. Must have been poor conditions
Or the Bundoran goalie had a stinker in addition to the Loughinisland forwards.One point!
Quote from: Line Ball on November 29, 2015, 03:49:28 PM
Ulster Int Final Result
Realt na Mara 0:7 (7)
Loughinisland 4:1 (13)
Were Loughinisland shooting into the Fenway Classic posts?
Loughinisland and Rockcorry both bate.
Interesting to note that the Mayo side in the intermediate finished second to Castlebar in Div 1 of the Mayo league. Wtf.
Quote from: general_lee on January 24, 2016, 05:22:14 PM
Loughinisland and Rockcorry both bate.
Interesting to note that the Mayo side in the intermediate finished second to Castlebar in Div 1 of the Mayo league. Wtf.
Both Mayo teams will be bate by Kerry Champions! If you think Mayo grading system is nuts, Kerry grading is of a high standard which means they do really well at intermediate and Junior.
I sadly expect a good beating for both in Croker.
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 24, 2016, 05:41:35 PM
Quote from: general_lee on January 24, 2016, 05:22:14 PM
Loughinisland and Rockcorry both bate.
Interesting to note that the Mayo side in the intermediate finished second to Castlebar in Div 1 of the Mayo league. Wtf.
Both Mayo teams will be bate by Kerry Champions! If you think Mayo grading system is nuts, Kerry grading is of a high standard which means they do really well at intermediate and Junior.
I sadly expect a good beating for both in Croker.
At least Castlebar will win the seniors so one trophy will be guaranteed to go whest!
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 24, 2016, 05:41:35 PM
Quote from: general_lee on January 24, 2016, 05:22:14 PM
Loughinisland and Rockcorry both bate.
Interesting to note that the Mayo side in the intermediate finished second to Castlebar in Div 1 of the Mayo league. Wtf.
Both Mayo teams will be bate by Kerry Champions! If you think Mayo grading system is nuts, Kerry grading is of a high standard which means they do really well at intermediate and Junior.
I sadly expect a good beating for both in Croker.
Yeah sure Templenoe are Division 1 this season coming. Time the GAA brought in some sort of regulation across all counties in this regard.
There is a discussion on another thread regarding Kerry system and I think it is completely flawed and basically lends itself to teams competing at levels they shouldn't be. GAA down the line need to look at some sort of uniformity.
Quote from: general_lee on January 25, 2016, 08:59:46 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 24, 2016, 05:41:35 PM
Quote from: general_lee on January 24, 2016, 05:22:14 PM
Loughinisland and Rockcorry both bate.
Interesting to note that the Mayo side in the intermediate finished second to Castlebar in Div 1 of the Mayo league. Wtf.
Both Mayo teams will be bate by Kerry Champions! If you think Mayo grading system is nuts, Kerry grading is of a high standard which means they do really well at intermediate and Junior.
I sadly expect a good beating for both in Croker.
Yeah sure Templenoe are Division 1 this season coming. Time the GAA brought in some sort of regulation across all counties in this regard.
I really can't see Croke Park having much luck forcing counties to adopt a system similar to the Kerry one.
Too many County Boards would kick up a fuss and demand to be allowed to do things their own flawed way - look at the example of Cavan where they got whatshisface to do a review of the county championship structure and he recommended that the number of senior clubs should be cut down. What did the Cavan County board do - turn around and increase the number of senior clubs.
I wouldn't support the Kerry model at all.
A basic principle of roughly the top third of a countys clubs play senior, the middle third play intermediate and the bottom third play junior.
If a club finds itself in the top division it's clearly not a junior or intermediate standard club.
The Kerry model is exactly the same as most models I know of around the country. I don't really understand yer issues with it. Ye seem to place an inordinate amount of emphasis on the Division they play in.
In every county I know of, the way you progress through the grades is by winning the one underneath, and there are relegation slot/s to relegate people to intermediate or junior, whatever. That's exactly what they do in Kerry too.
From next year on, ye actually have an argument, because the Intermediate Champions this year (St. Mary's) won't be allowed go Senior. Templenow, however, will be intermediate next year.
If you have 15 or 20 strong clubs, they can't all be senior lads.
Quote from: twohands!!! on January 25, 2016, 11:21:27 AM
Quote from: general_lee on January 25, 2016, 08:59:46 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 24, 2016, 05:41:35 PM
Quote from: general_lee on January 24, 2016, 05:22:14 PM
Loughinisland and Rockcorry both bate.
Interesting to note that the Mayo side in the intermediate finished second to Castlebar in Div 1 of the Mayo league. Wtf.
Both Mayo teams will be bate by Kerry Champions! If you think Mayo grading system is nuts, Kerry grading is of a high standard which means they do really well at intermediate and Junior.
I sadly expect a good beating for both in Croker.
Yeah sure Templenoe are Division 1 this season coming. Time the GAA brought in some sort of regulation across all counties in this regard.
I really can't see Croke Park having much luck forcing counties to adopt a system similar to the Kerry one.
Too many County Boards would kick up a fuss and demand to be allowed to do things their own flawed way - look at the example of Cavan where they got whatshisface to do a review of the county championship structure and he recommended that the number of senior clubs should be cut down. What did the Cavan County board do - turn around and increase the number of senior clubs.
Brilliant
I know AZ a lot of counties do use the same (or similar) type models but you don't get a true reflection of their ability.
If all counties just used league ranking from the year before then there could be no qualms. I know some of the Ulster counties have a system where if you play senior football league you also play senior football championship; and likewise for Inter and Junior. This would probably turn Kerry football upside down mind you so I wouldn't see much support from them.
Just think it ridiculous that a team can compete in an All Ireland Junior (and intermediate) final while playing Division 1 football in two of the strongest footballing counties in the country!
I wouldn't begrudge Templenoe a spot in the final. This is a place that is so underpopulated it has no school, no village and has to join up with 2 or 3 other clubs to field a team underage. Up until a few years ago they were losing 90%+ of the games they played in and they've managed to turn around their fortunes big time.
I think it's just a perception of the league. Ye seem to take it way more seriously up there than most counties I'm aware of. It's probably better by the way :) But down here teams can fluctuate through the leagues a lot as well, so even if you base it off the leagues, you could have a very strong team in Junior or Inter, because they might be in a yo-yo spell on the way back up.
Quote from: blanketattack on January 25, 2016, 12:47:36 PM
I wouldn't begrudge Templenoe a spot in the final. This is a place that is so underpopulated it has no school, no village and has to join up with 2 or 3 other clubs to field a team underage. Up until a few years ago they were losing 90%+ of the games they played in and they've managed to turn around their fortunes big time.
Correct. I think people overestimate these clubs.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 25, 2016, 12:48:27 PM
Quote from: blanketattack on January 25, 2016, 12:47:36 PM
I wouldn't begrudge Templenoe a spot in the final. This is a place that is so underpopulated it has no school, no village and has to join up with 2 or 3 other clubs to field a team underage. Up until a few years ago they were losing 90%+ of the games they played in and they've managed to turn around their fortunes big time.
Correct. I think people overestimate these clubs.
Sure there's international superstars down there.
That's true, but he's overage :)
That's fair enough. I know some of the Kerry clubs are miniscule. It's the same in Armagh we have tiny clubs playing Division 1 who can't field at underage and who were Dividion 3 or 4 not too long ago. It's not the club I have any truck with its the system that allows them to continue playing in a lower championship when clearly as a club they are making strides
Yet to be convinced by the Kerry system in terms of levelling.
Still can't comprehend how a team like Hollymount-Carramore can finish runners up in a senior league but yet play IFC.
Because nobody cares about the league :)
There are 12 teams in most divisions in Kerry. Clubs like Laune Rangers are down near the bottom of division 2. Bally Foilmore are in Division 2 next year. They'd be very strong relatively speaking. just how far down the divisions do you think Kerry should go before they land on an intermediate team?
I think they way they do it is perfectly fair.
I think next year it isn't. They way they are trying to trim their senior clubs in the County Championship is apparently also limiting the Senior Club Championship numbers, and ergo, the Intermediate. I believe St. Mary's should not be intermediate club next year, but that's what they will be.
Whats so hard to comprehend with it? They were relegated from Senior Championship and thus started playing intermediate championship. You have to win this championship to go back up senior. They lost the intermediate final last year to Ballyhaunis and thus stayed playing at that level. It could work the other way. They could be playing division 6 in the league and playing intermediate championship. The league is not taken seriously in Mayo - some use it to develop through the ranks, some don't really give a damn about it. Add to that plenty 'starred' league games which don't have county players involved and you can progress in the league if you take it seriously.
Same as that in most counties I think, to be fair. As I said, if you were to level it off in the manner ye describe, how far down would you go?
Quote from: twohands!!! on January 25, 2016, 11:21:27 AM
Quote from: general_lee on January 25, 2016, 08:59:46 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 24, 2016, 05:41:35 PM
Quote from: general_lee on January 24, 2016, 05:22:14 PM
Loughinisland and Rockcorry both bate.
Interesting to note that the Mayo side in the intermediate finished second to Castlebar in Div 1 of the Mayo league. Wtf.
Both Mayo teams will be bate by Kerry Champions! If you think Mayo grading system is nuts, Kerry grading is of a high standard which means they do really well at intermediate and Junior.
I sadly expect a good beating for both in Croker.
Yeah sure Templenoe are Division 1 this season coming. Time the GAA brought in some sort of regulation across all counties in this regard.
I really can't see Croke Park having much luck forcing counties to adopt a system similar to the Kerry one.
Too many County Boards would kick up a fuss and demand to be allowed to do things their own flawed way - look at the example of Cavan where they got whatshisface to do a review of the county championship structure and he recommended that the number of senior clubs should be cut down. What did the Cavan County board do - turn around and increase the number of senior clubs.
It was the Clubs who objected to that, not the County board. That was regarding the Senior Championship format. The League in Cavan is run the same way as Mayo and those other Counties.
It appears to me that Kerry operate their leagues, and championship, broadly in a similar manner to most other counties. The only confusion appears to be related to the County Championship versus Club Championship, and in truth that has very little to do with the relative strength of the clubs Kerry have been sending forward at Intermediate and Junior level.
As I said, next year this is a valid complaint, as to my mind St. Marys have won the Intermediate Championship, and should have been promoted to Senior Club status. Because of the trimming, this is not the case, and therefore St. Mary's will be intermediate again. (As will Laune Rangers). There are just quite a few good clubs in Kerry, and a lot of them at a similar type level. There's no Crossmaglen Rangers types, or Nemo Rangers, but there is a lot of Crokes/Stacks/Laune Rangers types.
AZ, I think the issue is that Kerry had only 11 Senior clubs in 2015 (plus the divisional sides), out of about 70? clubs in the county.
Therefore the 12th best club in the county is an intermediate team which also would have players who played senior championship in 2015 (on one of the divisional sides).
Some other counties might have 16 senior teams and no divisional sides meaning that the top intermediate club was only the 17th best in it's county and none of the players would have played senior football that year.
I can see the unfairness in that when the 17th best club in one county is supposed to be at the same level as the 12th best club in another county. (this gap is exacerbated further at junior level).
Having said that, I like the kerry system as it gives every player in the county the opportunity to play senior championship football. I think most/all other counties should implement it.
That's true, but I don't believe that is in anyway underhanded or unfair. Offaly has 8 teams in their Senior Championship, so technically the 9th best team is Intermediate. Tipperary has 31 Senior hurling teams or something stupid like that.
At the end of the day, the Kerry board have said that their Championships are made up of teams based on their previous Championship performance, not their league performance. And that concept is by and large the same in most counties.
The number of teams they have in each grade is down to the way they run their championships, I'll grant you, but I would argue that if other counties are diluting their own championships (like Tipp in the hurling) then maybe they need to look at that, instead of whinging about Kerry not having 20 clubs playing senior.
I agree with you, that the Kerry model is very good for developing players, and I take your point about the likes of the Marys having players that have played Senior with South Kerry. However in terms of who is eligible to play in what grade, I don't think Kerry are doing anything very out of the way.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 25, 2016, 02:04:21 PM
Same as that in most counties I think, to be fair. As I said, if you were to level it off in the manner ye describe, how far down would you go?
Top 33.3% are senior.
Next 33.3% are intermediate.
Bottom 33.3% are junior.
All according to league standings. Give them a years notice. Wherever you finish after that season will dictate where you play (championship wise) the next.
Last year Armagh had 48 teams. Top 16 played senior. The next 16 played inter. The last 16 played junior. If you win or get promoted in the league you go up a championship grade and likewise relegation.
Maybe if all counties had that arrangement they'd take the league a bit more serious. The likes of Kerry, Cork and Dublin are different because of the sheer numbers but surely if you divide the clubs equally between the grades you'll get a fairer representation
Based on league standings? OK, and then each year do you recalibrate based on league standings, or do you take championship performance? e.g. If my team is good enough to reach a senior semi final, but gets relegated to Division 2, or Division 3, are they relegated to intermediate?
Yep! They do that in Armagh. You have clubs who hypothetically could be rock bottom of and therefore relegated from Division 2 and be in the intermediate final, subsequently win it and be promoted instead. I think it actually happened in Tyrone one year!
It's a way of making the league more competitive if you attach some importance to it other than a trophy fr the team finishing top. Armagh have subdivided each league into two so each league now has 8 teams with a view of increasing competitiveness further. Whether it works or not will be seen this season
That would require a huge shift in thinking, and I think no matter what way you cut it, there will still be very strong teams from Kerry, at their respective levels.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 25, 2016, 02:44:55 PM
That's true, but I don't believe that is in anyway underhanded or unfair. Offaly has 8 teams in their Senior Championship, so technically the 9th best team is Intermediate. Tipperary has 31 Senior hurling teams or something stupid like that.
At the end of the day, the Kerry board have said that their Championships are made up of teams based on their previous Championship performance, not their league performance. And that concept is by and large the same in most counties.
The number of teams they have in each grade is down to the way they run their championships, I'll grant you, but I would argue that if other counties are diluting their own championships (like Tipp in the hurling) then maybe they need to look at that, instead of whinging about Kerry not having 20 clubs playing senior.
I agree with you, that the Kerry model is very good for developing players, and I take your point about the likes of the Marys having players that have played Senior with South Kerry. However in terms of who is eligible to play in what grade, I don't think Kerry are doing anything very out of the way.
I wasn't trying to say that kerry are doing anything wrong at all. In fact, I think there model is the best system!
But I can understand some people's perception that it is unfair to have different qualifying rules for the same competition (i.e. all ireland club competition). But that is not kerry's fault at all.
And to be honest, there system was in place long before the all ireland club junior and intermediate comps, so it's not like they have redesigned their system to gain an advantage at that level.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 25, 2016, 03:17:37 PM
That would require a huge shift in thinking, and I think no matter what way you cut it, there will still be very strong teams from Kerry, at their respective levels.
That is very true
General Lee, I don't think the 33.33% rule that you have suggested would be practical in every county.
Applying it to Kerry for example would mean that you'd have about 25 teams playing senior football (and that's excluding divisional teams).
How many clubs in Cork? Over 100? That's mean over 30 clubs in each championship.
I don't think that's practical.
I understand what your getting at. What I mean is divide the clubs equally between the grades... so Kerry you're looking at 16/17 teams per championship... Cork and Dublin are different but they have Junior A B C etc
The draw for the Kerry Intermediate championship 2016 was made tonight lads. Thought ye'd like to know.
St Michaels/Foilmore (AI Inter Champs 2009)
v
Skellig Rangers (All Ireland Junior Champs 2009)
John Mitchels (10 Kerry Senior titles)
v
Spa (Munster Inter Champs 2010)
Brosna (AI Junior champs 2015)
v
Castleisland Desmond's (AI Senior club winners 1985)
Currow (Kerry Inter champs 2013)
v
Waterville
Gneeveguilla (Munster Inter champs 2010)
v
Kenmare (Munster Junior Champs 2012)
Laune Rangers (AI Senior champs 1996. Munster champs 95 & 96)
v
An Ghaeltacht (Munster Senior champs 2003)
Ardfert (AI Inter Champs 2007 & 2015)
v
St Mary's (Munster Inter Champs 2015, hopefully AI Inter champs 2016. AI Junior champs 2011)
Glenflesk (Munster Senior club finalists 2000)
v
Templenoe (Munster and hopefully AI Junior champs 2016)
The Junior championship draw includes:
Finuge (2004 AI Junior champs, 2013 AI Intermediate runners up)
Annascaul (2007 Munster Intermediate champs)
Castlegregory (2010 AI Junior champs)
Duagh (2006 Munster Junior champs)
Dromid Pearses (2011 Munster Junior champs)
Listowel (who 5 yeaars ago were Senior)
Keel (2013 Munster Junior champs)
Incidentally, some people seem unaware, there has for years been 4 levels of club championship in Kerry:
Senior - Intermediate - Junior - Novice. (Won by Templenoe just in 2014)
Next year all teams who would be Junior or Novice are going into 1 draw for round 1. The winners play in a new Premier Junior championship, losers of those games play in Junior championship.
As AZ has already said, it's a bit ridiculous that Cahirciveen can't play Senior this year. Don't agree with that..Think there should be 10 Senior clubs allowed and 10/11 divisional teams. We like to keep the Senior championship strong AND give every club player an opportunity to play in it. The system isn't perfect, but it's better than most.
It'll be a Clew Bay-sized f**k up if Ardnaree don't win the junior AI.
I'd hate to be Waterville. The only club in Intermediate without parentheses :)
Quote from: Syferus on January 26, 2016, 02:49:21 AM
It'll be a Clew Bay-sized f**k up if Ardnaree don't win the junior AI.
No idea what Ardnaree are like but they'll have to be a serious team to beat Templenoe.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 26, 2016, 10:48:54 AM
I'd hate to be Waterville. The only club in Intermediate without parentheses :)
I was going to throw in something like "home of Mick O'Dwyer" but it would have been a token gesture! I'm fairly sure they won an Intermediate title back in the 90s alright. They reached a couple of Senior finals back in the late 60's but that was more of an unofficial South Kerry selection under the Waterville name. The great Mick O'Connell from Valentia played with that team for example.
Quote from: Ciarrai_thuaidh on January 26, 2016, 11:09:34 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 26, 2016, 02:49:21 AM
It'll be a Clew Bay-sized f**k up if Ardnaree don't win the junior AI.
No idea what Ardnaree are like but they'll have to be a serious team to beat Templenoe.
Would not hold much hope for Ardnaree. Cruised through the Mayo Championship (won final Ardnaree Sarsfields 6-14 Killala 0-7) and got bye to the Connacht final. Made hard work of beating a undisciplined Rockcorry (Monaghan) side down to 13 players. They are a strong Junior side, near the bottom of our second division. They won't be anywhere near as good as Templenoe.
Quote from: Syferus on January 26, 2016, 02:49:21 AM
It'll be a Clew Bay-sized f**k up if Ardnaree don't win the junior AI.
How do you figure that? They are in with a chance certainly but are hardly shoe-ins against a strong Kerry team who will be playing division 1 football in 2016.
Both Kerry teams are 3/1 on
If they played each other it would probably be close!
Quote from: galwayman on January 26, 2016, 12:48:08 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 26, 2016, 02:49:21 AM
It'll be a Clew Bay-sized f**k up if Ardnaree don't win the junior AI.
How do you figure that? They are in with a chance certainly but are hardly shoe-ins against a strong Kerry team who will be playing division 1 football in 2016.
Ardnaree have swept all in front of them. No team has even come close to troubling them all season. Wouldn't pay a bit of heed to odds at club, least of all at Junior. Templenoe have their work cut out for them.
Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.
On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.
Quote from: general_lee on January 25, 2016, 03:05:37 PM
Yep! They do that in Armagh. You have clubs who hypothetically could be rock bottom of and therefore relegated from Division 2 and be in the intermediate final, subsequently win it and be promoted instead. I think it actually happened in Tyrone one year!
It's a way of making the league more competitive if you attach some importance to it other than a trophy fr the team finishing top. Armagh have subdivided each league into two so each league now has 8 teams with a view of increasing competitiveness further. Whether it works or not will be seen this season
Aye, in 2007 Killyman won the Intermediate Championship to get promoted to division 1 and the senior football championship. Had they not won that final, they were going to be relegated to division 3 (bottom tier) and junior football due to their league position. They got a lot of pastings in division 1 the next year.
Quote from: blanketattack on January 27, 2016, 12:28:10 PM
Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.
On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.
Again, in a lot of other league systems in Ireland this would never happen. You can tell me all day long that league isn't important in Kerry but it has to be one of the main barometers and I don't subscribe to this theory that all clubs there don't take league football seriously. Still of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 27, 2016, 01:09:19 PM
Quote from: blanketattack on January 27, 2016, 12:28:10 PM
Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.
On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.
Again, in a lot of other league systems in Ireland this would never happen. You can tell me all day long that league isn't important in Kerry but it has to be one of the main barometers and I don't subscribe to this theory that all clubs there don't take league football seriously. Still of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.
What are you on about?
1.The Kerry league is taken very seriously, that's one of the strengths of the whole thing.
2. It is a completely separate competition to championship and teams may be playing Div 1 or 2 football but still be in Junior championship if they can't win that competition.
3. What exactly is skewed about a system that makes every single championship competitive, and I include divisional championships in that. Templenoe were in the Novice (4th tier) championship 3 years ago and Division 5 in the County league which is the bottom. They are from a parish with not even a primary school. 7 or 8 years ago St Marys were in Division 3 and in the Junior championship.
4. The last sentence of your post is utter nonsense.
Quote from: Syferus on January 26, 2016, 10:45:39 PM
Quote from: galwayman on January 26, 2016, 12:48:08 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 26, 2016, 02:49:21 AM
It'll be a Clew Bay-sized f**k up if Ardnaree don't win the junior AI.
How do you figure that? They are in with a chance certainly but are hardly shoe-ins against a strong Kerry team who will be playing division 1 football in 2016.
Ardnaree have swept all in front of them. No team has even come close to troubling them all season. Wouldn't pay a bit of heed to odds at club, least of all at Junior. Templenoe have their work cut out for them.
Well the way you phrased your original post makes it sound like Ardnaree should be the hottest of hot favourites which is nonsense.
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 27, 2016, 01:09:19 PMStill of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.
Kerry also tends to be fairly successful at pretty much all grades of football though. Even beyond senior Kerry has a very successful record at junior county football. Their record at minor and U21 hasn't been exceptional but they've always been competitive in terms of colleges and Sigerson football. It all feeds back on itself like a virtuous circle
I do think that some of the early success of Kerry teams in the intermediate and junior club have driven on some of their more recent wins - a lot of clubs will have seen the first few Kerry clubs of the same grade who won an All-Ireland in Croke Park and were probably thinking - we're of a similar standard to them, if we put out shoulder to the wheel we could win an All-Ireland in Croke Park too.
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 27, 2016, 01:09:19 PM
Quote from: blanketattack on January 27, 2016, 12:28:10 PM
Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.
On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.
Again, in a lot of other league systems in Ireland this would never happen. You can tell me all day long that league isn't important in Kerry but it has to be one of the main barometers and I don't subscribe to this theory that all clubs there don't take league football seriously. Still of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.
+1
Question: If Kerry are consistently producing Intermediate and Junior teams that are dining at the top table and this is a symptom of their superior club system rater than a skewed set-up. Why is it that they have struggled to win an AI senior Club for 20 years. If the standard is high it should filter up should it not?
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 27, 2016, 07:36:12 PM
Question: If Kerry are consistently producing Intermediate and Junior teams that are dining at the top table and this is a symptom of their superior club system rater than a skewed set-up. Why is it that they have struggled to win an AI senior Club for 20 years. If the standard is high it should filter up should it not?
No doubt the club scene is strong in Kerry but it stands to reason if you have only 11 or 12 senior clubs then the next level down is going to have stronger clubs than if you had for example 20 like there are in some counties.
In Galway there are 20 senior and 16 intermediate clubs which is ridiculous.
It has resulted in the junior championship only having a handful of first teams with the remainder made up of club second teams.
Madness.
Quote from: Ciarrai_thuaidh on January 27, 2016, 05:24:33 PM
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 27, 2016, 01:09:19 PM
Quote from: blanketattack on January 27, 2016, 12:28:10 PM
Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.
On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.
Again, in a lot of other league systems in Ireland this would never happen. You can tell me all day long that league isn't important in Kerry but it has to be one of the main barometers and I don't subscribe to this theory that all clubs there don't take league football seriously. Still of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.
What are you on about?
1.The Kerry league is taken very seriously, that's one of the strengths of the whole thing.
2. It is a completely separate competition to championship and teams may be playing Div 1 or 2 football but still be in Junior championship if they can't win that competition.
3. What exactly is skewed about a system that makes every single championship competitive, and I include divisional championships in that. Templenoe were in the Novice (4th tier) championship 3 years ago and Division 5 in the County league which is the bottom. They are from a parish with not even a primary school. 7 or 8 years ago St Marys were in Division 3 and in the Junior championship.
4. The last sentence of your post is utter nonsense.
Even if you ignore the issue about league placings, surely if you actually win the county intermediate championship that would mean promotion to the senior championship. Is it correct that St Marys, who are in the All Ireland intermediate final, are in the draw for the Kerry intermediate championship 2016?
Quote from: Blue Island on January 27, 2016, 08:08:19 PM
Quote from: Ciarrai_thuaidh on January 27, 2016, 05:24:33 PM
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 27, 2016, 01:09:19 PM
Quote from: blanketattack on January 27, 2016, 12:28:10 PM
Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.
On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.
Again, in a lot of other league systems in Ireland this would never happen. You can tell me all day long that league isn't important in Kerry but it has to be one of the main barometers and I don't subscribe to this theory that all clubs there don't take league football seriously. Still of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.
What are you on about?
1.The Kerry league is taken very seriously, that's one of the strengths of the whole thing.
2. It is a completely separate competition to championship and teams may be playing Div 1 or 2 football but still be in Junior championship if they can't win that competition.
3. What exactly is skewed about a system that makes every single championship competitive, and I include divisional championships in that. Templenoe were in the Novice (4th tier) championship 3 years ago and Division 5 in the County league which is the bottom. They are from a parish with not even a primary school. 7 or 8 years ago St Marys were in Division 3 and in the Junior championship.
4. The last sentence of your post is utter nonsense.
Even if you ignore the issue about league placings, surely if you actually win the county intermediate championship that would mean promotion to the senior championship. Is it correct that St Marys, who are in the All Ireland intermediate final, are in the draw for the Kerry intermediate championship 2016?
In fairness it won't have any bearing on next years competition. ;)
If an intermediate team finishes 2nd in a senior division 1 league (behind Connacht SFC champions and Al club SFC semi finalists), surely it stands to reason that they are of senior standard?
The Kerry set up is all over the place. Any wonder you produce strong Junior teams when they've to bet Division 1 and 2 teams to win it
Quote from: Ciarrai_thuaidh on January 27, 2016, 05:24:33 PM
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 27, 2016, 01:09:19 PM
Quote from: blanketattack on January 27, 2016, 12:28:10 PM
Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.
On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.
Again, in a lot of other league systems in Ireland this would never happen. You can tell me all day long that league isn't important in Kerry but it has to be one of the main barometers and I don't subscribe to this theory that all clubs there don't take league football seriously. Still of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.
What are you on about?
1.The Kerry league is taken very seriously, that's one of the strengths of the whole thing.
2. It is a completely separate competition to championship and teams may be playing Div 1 or 2 football but still be in Junior championship if they can't win that competition.
3. What exactly is skewed about a system that makes every single championship competitive, and I include divisional championships in that. Templenoe were in the Novice (4th tier) championship 3 years ago and Division 5 in the County league which is the bottom. They are from a parish with not even a primary school. 7 or 8 years ago St Marys were in Division 3 and in the Junior championship.
4. The last sentence of your post is utter nonsense.
1. Lot of posters on here saying that a good few teams in Kerry don't take league football seriously. However, you are obviously of a different opinion.
2. Of course they are two different competitions. My point is that the likes of Glenbeigh-Glencar were JFC last year but yet were playing Division 1 football. Similarly this year Templenoe are going to be IFC but playing against some very strong teams in Division 1. I am re-enforcing the skewed nature of your competitions. This does not happen in the majority of other counties.
3. What is your point here?
4. I disagree.
The whole point of the kerry club system is to give as many club players as possible the opportunity to play senior championship football. This is what increases the standard of players throughout the county.
Now you can call it ''unfair' or whatever you want, but the option is there for every county in the country to set up their club system in whatever way they want.
IMO, the kerry system is one of the best systems at improving the standard of club players throughout the county. Shouldn't that be the aim in every county?
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 28, 2016, 10:40:01 AM
Quote from: Ciarrai_thuaidh on January 27, 2016, 05:24:33 PM
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 27, 2016, 01:09:19 PM
Quote from: blanketattack on January 27, 2016, 12:28:10 PM
Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.
On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.
Again, in a lot of other league systems in Ireland this would never happen. You can tell me all day long that league isn't important in Kerry but it has to be one of the main barometers and I don't subscribe to this theory that all clubs there don't take league football seriously. Still of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.
What are you on about?
1.The Kerry league is taken very seriously, that's one of the strengths of the whole thing.
2. It is a completely separate competition to championship and teams may be playing Div 1 or 2 football but still be in Junior championship if they can't win that competition.
3. What exactly is skewed about a system that makes every single championship competitive, and I include divisional championships in that. Templenoe were in the Novice (4th tier) championship 3 years ago and Division 5 in the County league which is the bottom. They are from a parish with not even a primary school. 7 or 8 years ago St Marys were in Division 3 and in the Junior championship.
4. The last sentence of your post is utter nonsense.
1. Lot of posters on here saying that a good few teams in Kerry don't take league football seriously. However, you are obviously of a different opinion.
2. Of course they are two different competitions. My point is that the likes of Glenbeigh-Glencar were JFC last year but yet were playing Division 1 football. Similarly this year Templenoe are going to be IFC but playing against some very strong teams in Division 1. I am re-enforcing the skewed nature of your competitions. This does not happen in the majority of other counties.
3. What is your point here?
4. I disagree.
Lads, unless ye put 20 teams in Division 1, and call them all Senior, the reality is no matter how you break it down, there will be good intermediate and Junior Clubs. in Kerry. It's not unfair, and it is the way most counties run their systems too.
When I said Kerry don't take the league seriously, I meant in comparison with the championship. Teams fluctuate wildly in divisions, hence Templenoe up to D1 next year.
Equally, I have personally seen teams 'given the points' in the League down there to help with promotion/relegation, so I don't think that would happen in a championship match!
the one quibble I have is for next year. the Marys *should* be a Senior Club Championship side next year, even if they elect to stay with South Kerry for the County Championship. Other than that, I think it is perfectly fine to run your championship as a completely separate competition, and to base grading on prior championship performance, rather than current league standing.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 28, 2016, 11:03:31 AM
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 28, 2016, 10:40:01 AM
Quote from: Ciarrai_thuaidh on January 27, 2016, 05:24:33 PM
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 27, 2016, 01:09:19 PM
Quote from: blanketattack on January 27, 2016, 12:28:10 PM
Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.
On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.
Again, in a lot of other league systems in Ireland this would never happen. You can tell me all day long that league isn't important in Kerry but it has to be one of the main barometers and I don't subscribe to this theory that all clubs there don't take league football seriously. Still of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.
What are you on about?
1.The Kerry league is taken very seriously, that's one of the strengths of the whole thing.
2. It is a completely separate competition to championship and teams may be playing Div 1 or 2 football but still be in Junior championship if they can't win that competition.
3. What exactly is skewed about a system that makes every single championship competitive, and I include divisional championships in that. Templenoe were in the Novice (4th tier) championship 3 years ago and Division 5 in the County league which is the bottom. They are from a parish with not even a primary school. 7 or 8 years ago St Marys were in Division 3 and in the Junior championship.
4. The last sentence of your post is utter nonsense.
1. Lot of posters on here saying that a good few teams in Kerry don't take league football seriously. However, you are obviously of a different opinion.
2. Of course they are two different competitions. My point is that the likes of Glenbeigh-Glencar were JFC last year but yet were playing Division 1 football. Similarly this year Templenoe are going to be IFC but playing against some very strong teams in Division 1. I am re-enforcing the skewed nature of your competitions. This does not happen in the majority of other counties.
3. What is your point here?
4. I disagree.
Lads, unless ye put 20 teams in Division 1, and call them all Senior, the reality is no matter how you break it down, there will be good intermediate and Junior Clubs. in Kerry. It's not unfair, and it is the way most counties run their systems too.
When I said Kerry don't take the league seriously, I meant in comparison with the championship. Teams fluctuate wildly in divisions, hence Templenoe up to D1 next year.
Equally, I have personally seen teams 'given the points' in the League down there to help with promotion/relegation, so I don't think that would happen in a championship match!
the one quibble I have is for next year. the Marys *should* be a Senior Club Championship side next year, even if they elect to stay with South Kerry for the County Championship. Other than that, I think it is perfectly fine to run your championship as a completely separate competition, and to base grading on prior championship performance, rather than current league standing.
Suppose I'm coming from my own counties POV where there is a very high correlation between league standing and championship grade. It works well here and it's probably what I'm used to.
I think that's it. I understand what you're saying, and I also understand the sense of that. It certainly makes the league an integral part of the championship proper, which is something I wouldn't mind seeing at county level.
However, I balk at the suggestion that Kerry are doing anything underhanded, or seeking to get an advantage. They are not fixated on winning intermediate and junior club championships. They *are* fixated on winning Senior All Ireland Inter County championships, and that is why their championship is structured as it is to try and raise all standards.
Someone else asked if their system is so great, why are there not a glut of all Ireland club winners. To that I would say, again, they are competitive at that level, but their system is not really designed to create superclubs that dominate, it's more designed that there are many clubs (even in intermediate and junior ranks) who can play at a high level, and raise their respective player standards through a competitive club scene at each level, which incorporates divisional sides at Senior County Championship. A high level of clubs, spread throughout the county, as opposed to a couple of clubs who are exceptional.
For 2016, just for arguments sake, these are the league divisions. Lets ignore the County Championship at Senior Level, and assume that there are only Senior, Intermediate, Junior and Novice Or Junior and Premier Junior.
I think it's reasonable to say that 10-12 teams is the ideal number in a championship. You can run it knockout, with a losers second chance, or you can run it in groups round robin. I don't think it would be in Kerry (or anyone else's) interest to have massive numbers in Senior, as that just dilutes things. As I said, in Offaly we have 8 Senior A clubs. Let's say 12 in Kerry, which happens to be the number in the divisions.
So if you based it on League positions, rather than previous Championship Performance, the Senior Club Championship would have
Dr. Crokes, Austin Stacks, Killarney Legion GAA, Kerins O`Rahilly's, Castleisland Desmonds/Na Deasmúnaigh, Milltown/Castlemaine, Glenbeigh-Glencar, Daingean Uí Chúis, Kilcummin,
Waterville Frank Caseys, Templenoe, John Mitchel's/Na Mistéallaigh.
Aha says you, there's Templenoe and Glenbeigh straight away. See, they should be Senior Clubs.
But if we look at Division 2, and say this is intermediate, then you have
St Michael's-Foilmore, Finuge, Spa Killarney, Kenmare Shamrocks, Rathmore, St Mary's, Emmetaigh/Listowel Emmets, Glenflesk, Laune Rangers, Currow, Beaufort, An Ghaeltacht
Some big names there including All Ireland Senior Club winners, and current and past Munster and All Ireland Intermediate Club winners.
And even if we continue into division 3, or Junior say, we have
Listry, Annascaul, Brosna, Keel, St Patrick's Blennerville, Ardfert Football Club, Beale, Na Gaeil, Skelligs Rangers G.A.A. Club, Ballymacelligott, Ballydonoghue, Dromid Pearses
There's another list of Munster and All Ireland winners there.
So my point is, even if you align with Leagues, unless you 'force' Kerry to just have big championships at each grade, you are going to have good teams playing in intermediate and junior grades no matter what.
Most junior clubs in Kerry are of a high standard and it's little to do with the grading. They have top class facilities, they rarely lose any eligible players to other sports, they train as hard as senior clubs. A few of their players will play with and against top class senior players with the divisional side. They might play against senior or i'mediate players in the league which isn't a priority but also in divisional c'ship which is a priority. Getting to play with and against top class opponents improves standards. Compared this to other countries where a lot of clubs B or C team are playing in the junior c'ship.
Teams from a lower grade beating higher grade teams happens all the time e.g. the c'ship often sees national league teams from 2 divisions down winning, similarly in the FA cup.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 28, 2016, 11:13:47 AM
I think that's it. I understand what you're saying, and I also understand the sense of that. It certainly makes the league an integral part of the championship proper, which is something I wouldn't mind seeing at county level.
However, I balk at the suggestion that Kerry are doing anything underhanded, or seeking to get an advantage. They are not fixated on winning intermediate and junior club championships. They *are* fixated on winning Senior All Ireland Inter County championships, and that is why their championship is structured as it is to try and raise all standards.
Someone else asked if their system is so great, why are there not a glut of all Ireland club winners. To that I would say, again, they are competitive at that level, but their system is not really designed to create superclubs that dominate, it's more designed that there are many clubs (even in intermediate and junior ranks) who can play at a high level, and raise their respective player standards through a competitive club scene at each level, which incorporates divisional sides at Senior County Championship. A high level of clubs, spread throughout the county, as opposed to a couple of clubs who are exceptional.
This is the best post on the subject!
Well said.
If we look at previous finalists at intermediate and junior all Ireland club level, there's a few names that are, according to league, operating at a lower level now than in the recent past when they won their championships. There are others who would probably be in the same championship again based on current league position.
Kerry Junior All Ireland Finalists
2016 - Templenoe (2016 Division 1)
2015 - Brosna (2016 Division 3)
2013 - Kenmare Shamrocks (2016 Division 2)
2011 - St. Mary's Cahirciveen (2016 Division 1)
2010 - Skellig Rangers (2016 Division 3)
2009 - Duagh (2016 Division 5)
Intermediate
2016 - St. MAry's Cahirciveen (2016 Division 1)
2015 - Ardfert (2016 Division 3)
2013 - Finuge (2016 Division 2)
2012 - Milltown Castlemaine (2016 Division 1)
2010 - Spa (2016 Division 2)
2009 - Bally Foilmore (2016 Division 2)
Ardnaree finished 3rd from bottom in the second tier (Div 1B) in Mayo. League and championship separated for quite a while now in Mayo.
The Issue is not where teams finish in their their Divisions. The issue is the small number of Senior teams for such a Large county. This means you have teams seeded to low for their standard? If you have a senior championship with 4 teams less. That's 4 more really strong teams in intermediate and in turn 8 stronger teams in Junior? So really the Senoir Championship is Senior. The intermediate Championship is Senior B. And the Junior Championship is Intermediate.
Whatever. I give up :) I just know it works for them, and their motive is not to win Junior and Inter club all Irelands. And I know that even if you linked it to League, or increased the number of teams in Senior (which would be daft in my view) you will still end up with good Intermediate and Junior teams. I'll say no more :)
No doubt they are doing what suit themselves and I have no issue with that. But you have to admit there is an advantage in their seeding that makes them favourites to win titles outside the county.
Now for reality. The Intermediate/Junior AI and Provincial Club championships are window dressing. They mean nothing to anyone bar the counties involved. My Club won a Connacht Junior a few years ago and we dreamed of AI Glory and Croker. It was the only window of opportunity for us. We'd never get near a Senior standard.
There are loads of anomalies with all the counties involved. There is to much tidying up of rule and it would be hard to get these rules adhered to. And besides, Croke Park don't care.
Id have to agree with From the bunker. It doesnt seem to be a level playing field when it reaches the provincial and all ireland stages. I cant see kerry changing their structures either, but personally I think the leagues should be linked to championship. It is ridiculous that a team can wim intermediate and not play senior the following year, though similarthings have happened in other counties.
The junior and intermediate club championships are brilliant competitions when all is said and done.
I played in a Connacht junior club final for my club not so long ago which was a fantastic experience.
We dared to dream of Croker for a small while anyway.
As bunker has alluded to - our little club is unlikely to ever make Croker through the senior route.
It allows those of us in small clubs to aspire to make Croke Park
OK, 1 more post just to address a couple of things.
From the Bunker, I don't accept they have too few senior teams. I feel other counties have too many. They are trying to protect and raise their standards all over. Junior clubs in Kerry are as good or better as Senior Clubs in Offaly. I can say that with assurance, and we only have 8 senior clubs. That is a direct result, in my view, of the 'rising tide' lifting all boats.
Ardtole, you kind of contradict yourself in that you say the championship should be linked to the league, but then say it's ridiculous that you can win Intermediate and not go Senior.
If you link championship grade to league position it would be perfectly acceptable for the intermediate champion to remain intermediate if they didn't finish high enough up the league. In Kerry they do not operate that way, and instead operate the system whereby your championship grade is determined by your previous championship performance. As such, in most years, the Intermediate Winner goes Senior, and the Junior Winner goes to Intermediate.
In 2016 this is not happening at Senior LEvel, and I have already said I disagree with this. This is because Kerry are trimming their County championship by removing some Senior Clubs. I believe they missed a trick in not allowing the Marys go Senior Club (as opposed to Senior Championship) as they would probably have stayed with South Kerry anyway for the Championship.
Templenoe, however, as Junior Champions *will* be Intermediate.
As I've said, in most counties I'm familiar with, this is the mechanism used to determine championship grade, and basing it on League position seems to be more of an Ulster approach. I can see the merits of it, but as I said, even if it was based on League, you'd still have strong Junior and Intermediate clubs, unless you made them have so many teams in their higher championship that you were sucking in Division 5 teams (and Duagh are Division 5 remember!).
So again, Kerry are simply ensuring their standards are as high across as many grades as possible, because this serves their county team best, and I don't think they are doing anything at all wrong. Maybe other counties should do the same.
In Down the top 16 teams from last years league are graded as senior, the next 16 are graded as intermediate and the rest are junior. There is no novice grade. If the intermediate champions finish outside the top 16 clubs they will replace club number 16 in the sfc.
It is a straight forward and fair grade for clubs throughout the county and when clubs play in the ulster club there is no controversy over their status. Maybe we could learn from kerry and have less senior clubs and more junior clubs.
Prehaps if there was an official guide on what constitutes a clubs status across the country it would even things up, but i doubt that is likely.
Quote from: ardtole on January 28, 2016, 08:54:59 PM
Id have to agree with From the bunker. It doesnt seem to be a level playing field when it reaches the provincial and all ireland stages. I cant see kerry changing their structures either, but personally I think the leagues should be linked to championship. It is ridiculous that a team can wim intermediate and not play senior the following year, though similarthings have happened in other counties.
I have no problem with not linking the League to Championship. A few years ago we had Shrule/Glencorrib who went from Junior to Senior without winning a County title. Their promotion to higher grades was based on League promotions. Felt sorry for them at the time, no big day or silverware!
I post irregularly here, but thankfully AZ is calling it correctly anyway, so no need for me here really.
Really don't get what people have a problem with regarding Kerry system. Seems to me a lot of other places have seriously f*cked up systems. Teams going up 2 levels based just on league standings without winning a championship?? That's really going to battle harden players and teams alright. ::)
Quote from: Ciarrai_thuaidh on January 29, 2016, 03:38:56 PM
I post irregularly here, but thankfully AZ is calling it correctly anyway, so no need for me here really.
Really don't get what people have a problem with regarding Kerry system. Seems to me a lot of other places have seriously f*cked up systems. Teams going up 2 levels based just on league standings without winning a championship?? That's really going to battle harden players and teams alright. ::)
Yeah it's not Kerrys fault that there are too many senior & intermediate clubs in other counties. It does give them an advantage in inter and junior club competitions over some counties but that's the fault of the other counties themselves.
If you have 20 senior teams there is going to be a big gap between the top few teams and the bottom 5 or 6 teams who are really not senior standard.
Ditto at intermediate level.
I think the divisional system which exposes players from smaller clubs to senior championship is one thing that pays off for Kerry certainly.
Just wondering though - how does a divisional team made up of club junior and senior players balance the need for these players to also prepare with their own clubs for their respective championships? That can't be easy on an intermediate or junior club if they have 8 or 9 lads off training with the divisional side?
How does their own club prepare properly at the same time?
Normally the divisional side doesn't take huge chunks of their time. Certainly the 'home' club has access to the players, and they play league games etc with the normal clubs, as well as their championship games. They do train and play challenge matches with the Divisional side, but most of the time, they are also with their home club, and the Divisional season doesn't last as long.
Don't forget in large swathes of Kerry, hurling isn't a factor, certainly in South Kerry, so that issue doesn't arise. I would nearly say a dual club in Galway would have more issues with access to their players than a club with several Divisional players in Kerry.
Christ in Derry we could never start divisional sides. It would be a killing match - among the divisional team :)
Both of tomorrow's All Ireland club finals are live on Sky channel 191, coverage starts at 2:30pm
Serious pace to the start of the game.
Templemore attack looks lethal for this level - 3 points up to no score.
Ardnaree coming into it a bit doing better at midfield -Templnoe 0-6 Ardnaree 0-4
Templenoe 1-8 Ardnaree 0-4 20 minutes
What level or division in Kerry or Mayo do these team play in? I have played Junior football over a number of years and i would never have come across teams as strong as this, maybe a team have a county u-21 or 2 and a few minors but not county men outside of the rare exception. There is no way these 2 teams would be classed as Junior teams. I remember playing Drumgoon of Cavan 1 year and they were in Division 1 in Cavan when they won the All-ireland Junior.
No Intermediate Team in Derry, Tyrone, Armagh, Down can enter a junior championship if they play in division 2, likewise the division above, they can play up a championship but not down, Junior championship should be for Junior league teams only, not bottom of the table Division 2 teams or some teams somehow in Division 1, makes the whole thing a farce
Could you imagine at county level, if we had senior inter and junior, and you'd a team like Down or Roscommon playing in the Junior. That's how I'd look at it.
Templenoe 4-11 Ardnaree 1-9 10 minutes left
Hat-trick for Stephen O'Sullivan
Pat Spillane Junior comes on as a sub.
Templenoe getting her tight
Pat Spillane Jr inherited the father's looks anyway - kicked a point there.
Templenoe 4-13 Ardnaree 1-9
Templenoe 4-13 Ardnaree 1-10 FT
Its a bit like Man utd winning the Europa cup, dancing around for winning at a level they should be embarrassed to play at with what they have.
club finals on this channel
http://www.irishtv.ie/broadcast
Apparently half this team play for a divisional side or kenmare? damn strange Junior side
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 06, 2016, 04:20:59 PM
Its a bit like Man utd winning the Europa cup, dancing around for winning at a level they should be embarrassed to play at with what they have.
utd wouldn't even win the europa league!. a better comparison might be chelsea celebrating winning the europa league the season after winning the champions league.
Junior final was a mis match. The Intermediate final is a good watch with some fine scores.
intermediate final is tight, 0-6 each at h/t.
these 2 teams would never be intermediate in Tyrone.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 06, 2016, 04:49:59 PM
Apparently half this team play for a divisional side or kenmare? damn strange Junior side
The only way to beat them is to join them. Templenoe are currently a Division 1 side in Kerry and yes a lot of that team played divisional football at senior championship level. But that is the Kerry system
If you want to level the playing field then the same structures should be applied in Mayo and other counties.
Otherwise these mismatches will happen continuously. By the way if you think it bothers the Templenoe lads well you can forget it. As far as they are concerned they have an All Ireland medal in their back pockets and a handy one at that.
In years to come all that will be remembered of the match is the result and a great win for Templenoe who swept all before them in their conquest of Ireland.
Well for example the Junior winners in Derry would be about the 33rd team level wise in Derry with 16 in the 1st and 14-16 in the 2nd, that's a proper junior level though Derry should operate a 12,12, in Div 1 and 2 and the rest in Junior, mean the mid division in Intermediate would be possible Junior champs
A team at division 1 level would never be allowed to compete at that level and that should be the case at a all-ireland junior club level, most of the teams in the north operate like this outside of Cavan and Monaghan
I have seen Templenoe at first hand when they came to the mainland to play John Mitchels. I would put John Mitchels as a team who would finish top 6 in Intermediate football in Derry. Templenoe although only winning by 8, could have won by 16 if the playing surface was better. Templenoe were a huge physical team. I had a few quid on them today at -4 points, easy easy money.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 06, 2016, 04:20:59 PM
Its a bit like Man utd winning the Europa cup, dancing around for winning at a level they should be embarrassed to play at with what they have.
Templenoe come for a parish of less than 500 people which doesn't even have a national school.
They only have 3 players eligible to play minor football at the moment and have to join up with 4 or 5 other clubs over a distance of 45km to field a team at minor.
Both Mayo teams out of their dept today. Hollymount/Carra have to be commended on give it a right go. Mad to think St. Marys can have a go at winning this competition again next year. God knows they are way to strong for the intermediate grade this year.
Hard Luck to Ardnaree. Tough day at the office. But they were beaten by a Division One Kerry team. Most intermediate sides in Kerry struggled against this side last year. Well done to Templenoe who have fought against adversity to have a top club side.
It's been a great year for both sides and when the dust settles they'll appreciate their achievements.
Would not say that Holly Carra were out of there depth today and I suspect after watching the video they will have big regrets
After seeing that today I'd say Templenoe would beat most SFC sides in Down and similarly St Mary's would too. Two teams playing at a drastically higher level than their grade suggests.
Quote from: theticklemister on February 06, 2016, 05:59:56 PM
I have seen Templenoe at first hand when they came to the mainland to play John Mitchels. I would put John Mitchels as a team who would finish top 6 in Intermediate football in Derry. Templenoe although only winning by 8, could have won by 16 if the playing surface was better. Templenoe were a huge physical team. I had a few quid on them today at -4 points, easy easy money.
What price where they?
-4 even money
Quote from: twohands!!! on February 06, 2016, 06:13:19 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 06, 2016, 04:20:59 PM
Its a bit like Man utd winning the Europa cup, dancing around for winning at a level they should be embarrassed to play at with what they have.
Templenoe come for a parish of less than 500 people which doesn't even have a national school.
They only have 3 players eligible to play minor football at the moment and have to join up with 4 or 5 other clubs over a distance of 45km to field a team at minor.
Quote from: Nihilisthe only way to beat them is to join them. Templenoe are currently a Division 1 side in Kerry and yes a lot of that team played divisional football at senior championship level. But that is the Kerry system
If you want to level the playing field then the same structures should be applied in Mayo and other counties.
Otherwise these mismatches will happen continuously. By the way if you think it bothers the Templenoe lads well you can forget it. As far as they are concerned they have an All Ireland medal in their back pockets and a handy one at that.
In years to come all that will be remembered of the match is the result and a great win for Templenoe who swept all before them in their conquest of Ireland.
Fair play lads, a couple of decent posts amidst some of the nonsense, bitterness and downright ignorance over recent pages.
What a great night for St Mary's and Templenoe. 2 clubs that have come from low enough places in recent years and now both (Templenoe especially) have good immediate prospects.
Templenoe have an amazing bunch of players right now, a lot of them in a similar age bracket. They have come from Division 5 and the Novice championship (4th level of championship) to get to where they are. I remember a few years ago they were struggling badly to field a team and there was talks of amalgamation. They will give Intermediate a good rattle this year and it wouldn't surprise me to see them play Senior football with this group. As twohands said, Templenoe is a real small club in a sparsely populated rural area. I know you hear this from nearly every rural team that get to games like this (sometimes despite the fact that they cover 2 villages or more!) but in Templenoe's case, it really is true. Go to google maps, scan West from Kenmare along the ring of Kerry and search for Blackwater just off the main road. That is where the Blackwater tavern and post office is. The nearest thing to a community hub for the Templenoe lads. It'll be hopping for the next week I'm sure!
Mary's were Junior up to 2010, have spent a good bit of time in Division 3 also. They're a town team but in the middle of South Kerry, that doesn't really matter. Many Cahirciveen lads play their trade on foreign shores. Stephen Curran for example was a fine Kerry U21. Won a Connacht Championship with London a few years back. They lost the 2013 Intermediate final they should have really won, had a poor year in 2014 and lost in Round 1, but to bounce back like this is something else. I will say that it's wrong that they weren't at least given the option of going Senior next year. Apart from that though, all this moaning about the Kerry structure is hilarious.
Did an auld Kerry double today. Just short of even money, but keeps me in the black for the rest of the month.
Quote from: Ciarrai_thuaidh on February 06, 2016, 09:53:56 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on February 06, 2016, 06:13:19 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 06, 2016, 04:20:59 PM
Its a bit like Man utd winning the Europa cup, dancing around for winning at a level they should be embarrassed to play at with what they have.
Templenoe come for a parish of less than 500 people which doesn't even have a national school.
They only have 3 players eligible to play minor football at the moment and have to join up with 4 or 5 other clubs over a distance of 45km to field a team at minor.
Quote from: Nihilisthe only way to beat them is to join them. Templenoe are currently a Division 1 side in Kerry and yes a lot of that team played divisional football at senior championship level. But that is the Kerry system
If you want to level the playing field then the same structures should be applied in Mayo and other counties.
Otherwise these mismatches will happen continuously. By the way if you think it bothers the Templenoe lads well you can forget it. As far as they are concerned they have an All Ireland medal in their back pockets and a handy one at that.
In years to come all that will be remembered of the match is the result and a great win for Templenoe who swept all before them in their conquest of Ireland.
Fair play lads, a couple of decent posts amidst some of the nonsense, bitterness and downright ignorance over recent pages.
What a great night for St Mary's and Templenoe. 2 clubs that have come from low enough places in recent years and now both (Templenoe especially) have good immediate prospects.
Templenoe have an amazing bunch of players right now, a lot of them in a similar age bracket. They have come from Division 5 and the Novice championship (4th level of championship) to get to where they are. I remember a few years ago they were struggling badly to field a team and there was talks of amalgamation. They will give Intermediate a good rattle this year and it wouldn't surprise me to see them play Senior football with this group. As twohands said, Templenoe is a real small club in a sparsely populated rural area. I know you hear this from nearly every rural team that get to games like this (sometimes despite the fact that they cover 2 villages or more!) but in Templenoe's case, it really is true. Go to google maps, scan West from Kenmare along the ring of Kerry and search for Blackwater just off the main road. That is where the Blackwater tavern and post office is. The nearest thing to a community hub for the Templenoe lads. It'll be hopping for the next week I'm sure!
Mary's were Junior up to 2010, have spent a good bit of time in Division 3 also. They're a town team but in the middle of South Kerry, that doesn't really matter. Many Cahirciveen lads play their trade on foreign shores. Stephen Curran for example was a fine Kerry U21. Won a Connacht Championship with London a few years back. They lost the 2013 Intermediate final they should have really won, had a poor year in 2014 and lost in Round 1, but to bounce back like this is something else. I will say that it's wrong that they weren't at least given the option of going Senior next year. Apart from that though, all this moaning about the Kerry structure is hilarious.
Hid did Templenoe get on in the novice All-Ireland? Never heard of such a grade, it's gerrymandered to put teams in these competitions when they are a serious cut above
In fairness the Kerry Clubs won their titles within the rules. Now the rules suit their grading system and make it more likely for the winning of Provincial and All Ireland titles. But them are the rules. From a Mayo perspective, it can be embarrassing for clubs who got to a final and get well beaten by teams of a superior standard. This is not Kerrys fault. They do what they do for their Championship system.
Today I heard talk of how superior the Kerry footballers were to the Mayo footballers. And I doubt that anyone that was saying this was telling a lie. Just in reality we were not looking at like for like. And you'd expect this from a club graded 17 playing a team graded 9. God only knows that the Junior comparison is. I understand the adversity of these Kerry clubs, But hey Mayo Clubs don't have a bed of Roses when it comes to numbers/survival. This is not a gripe. These grades are impossible to grade properly. And there are always an exceptionally very good group of players that turn up in a club to bring it from being a average club to a top club.
Quote from: DownFanatic on February 06, 2016, 06:39:00 PM
After seeing that today I'd say Templenoe would beat most SFC sides in Down and similarly St Mary's would too. Two teams playing at a drastically higher level than their grade suggests.
There's another thread on the board about the cost of Dublin dominance, well the cost of Kerry dominance in these competitions is getting called out about the farcical grading they have where a team can be top of div 2 league but play Junior championship. And I doubt the cute hoors will give one damn as they annex another two til it's looked at properly by Congress.
Stop talking nonsense. Maybe ye are doing it wrong.
Agree with AZ. The option is open to any county to change their structures.
For example, Mayo have 16 clubs at senior and 16 at intermediate; I understand this is 12 in kerry? It's a simple enough thing to vote through such a change but I'd guess most clubs wouldn't want to chance dropping down a level
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 06, 2016, 11:54:10 PM
Stop talking nonsense. Maybe ye are doing it wrong.
No, kerry are taking the piss, and its going to get worse with the restructuring of the kerry championships.
Quote from: tiempo on February 06, 2016, 10:47:11 PM
Quote from: Ciarrai_thuaidh on February 06, 2016, 09:53:56 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on February 06, 2016, 06:13:19 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 06, 2016, 04:20:59 PM
Its a bit like Man utd winning the Europa cup, dancing around for winning at a level they should be embarrassed to play at with what they have.
Templenoe come for a parish of less than 500 people which doesn't even have a national school.
They only have 3 players eligible to play minor football at the moment and have to join up with 4 or 5 other clubs over a distance of 45km to field a team at minor.
Quote from: Nihilisthe only way to beat them is to join them. Templenoe are currently a Division 1 side in Kerry and yes a lot of that team played divisional football at senior championship level. But that is the Kerry system
If you want to level the playing field then the same structures should be applied in Mayo and other counties.
Otherwise these mismatches will happen continuously. By the way if you think it bothers the Templenoe lads well you can forget it. As far as they are concerned they have an All Ireland medal in their back pockets and a handy one at that.
In years to come all that will be remembered of the match is the result and a great win for Templenoe who swept all before them in their conquest of Ireland.
Fair play lads, a couple of decent posts amidst some of the nonsense, bitterness and downright ignorance over recent pages.
What a great night for St Mary's and Templenoe. 2 clubs that have come from low enough places in recent years and now both (Templenoe especially) have good immediate prospects.
Templenoe have an amazing bunch of players right now, a lot of them in a similar age bracket. They have come from Division 5 and the Novice championship (4th level of championship) to get to where they are. I remember a few years ago they were struggling badly to field a team and there was talks of amalgamation. They will give Intermediate a good rattle this year and it wouldn't surprise me to see them play Senior football with this group. As twohands said, Templenoe is a real small club in a sparsely populated rural area. I know you hear this from nearly every rural team that get to games like this (sometimes despite the fact that they cover 2 villages or more!) but in Templenoe's case, it really is true. Go to google maps, scan West from Kenmare along the ring of Kerry and search for Blackwater just off the main road. That is where the Blackwater tavern and post office is. The nearest thing to a community hub for the Templenoe lads. It'll be hopping for the next week I'm sure!
Mary's were Junior up to 2010, have spent a good bit of time in Division 3 also. They're a town team but in the middle of South Kerry, that doesn't really matter. Many Cahirciveen lads play their trade on foreign shores. Stephen Curran for example was a fine Kerry U21. Won a Connacht Championship with London a few years back. They lost the 2013 Intermediate final they should have really won, had a poor year in 2014 and lost in Round 1, but to bounce back like this is something else. I will say that it's wrong that they weren't at least given the option of going Senior next year. Apart from that though, all this moaning about the Kerry structure is hilarious.
Hid did Templenoe get on in the novice All-Ireland? Never heard of such a grade, it's gerrymandered to put teams in these competitions when they are a serious cut above
As I said, hilarious level of ignorance.
Novice, if you bothered your ar5e researching the Kerry system, is a level below Junior. What most counties would call Junior B.
well there are 70 teams in Kerry give or take, where would you rate this team in the county, what number? In Dublin they have or had Division 1, Division 2 and B then divisions 1-9 (or the case been about 15yrs back) The Division 4 level (out of the 1-9) would been the same level as the Derry Junior back then . Cork have over 200 teams
if they operated the same way Kerry do with Division 1 teams playing junior, would Cork and Dublin teams not be on contention at Junior and intermediate every year, this is not the case.
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 06, 2016, 11:08:13 PM
In fairness the Kerry Clubs won their titles within the rules. Now the rules suit their grading system and make it more likely for the winning of Provincial and All Ireland titles. But them are the rules. From a Mayo perspective, it can be embarrassing for clubs who got to a final and get well beaten by teams of a superior standard. This is not Kerrys fault. They do what they do for their Championship system.
Today I heard talk of how superior the Kerry footballers were to the Mayo footballers. And I doubt that anyone that was saying this was telling a lie. Just in reality we were not looking at like for like. And you'd expect this from a club graded 17 playing a team graded 9. God only knows that the Junior comparison is. I understand the adversity of these Kerry clubs, But hey Mayo Clubs don't have a bed of Roses when it comes to numbers/survival. This is not a gripe. These grades are impossible to grade properly. And there are always an exceptionally very good group of players that turn up in a club to bring it from being a average club to a top club.
Firstly, Mary's were "ranked" 12th, not 9th in club teams if you want to call the Intermediate champions that. There were 11 Senior club teams in the Kerry Senior championship last year. If you want to do it by League ranking which some people seem to think is the be all and end all, Mary's were in Division 3 a couple of years ago. In other words, somewhere between 24-36 in ranking.
You are correct in saying that the cut-off point from Senior to Intermediate etc is totally arbitrary from county to county. However, on today's game, there was no massive imbalance in the Intermediate game. Mary's are a team that has come up from Junior as I said above.
If you are a team going up Senior in a serious Club Football county like Mayo you can't be making any excuses given the above..and in fairness the 1st goal was probably the key score in the game. H/C were actually the better team in the first half I thought and just lost the head a bit when chasing the game. (Taking a minute to kick a free wide near the end for example.) The game was a decent spectacle though.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 07, 2016, 12:53:33 AM
well there are 70 teams in Kerry give or take, where would you rate this team in the county, what number? In Dublin they have or had Division 1, Division 2 and B then divisions 1-9 (or the case been about 15yrs back) The Division 4 level (out of the 1-9) would been the same level as the Derry Junior back then . Cork have over 200 teams
if they operated the same way Kerry do with Division 1 teams playing junior, would Cork and Dublin teams not be on contention at Junior and intermediate every year, this is not the case.
There are
60 teams in the Kerry structure. 5 Divisions of 12 in the County League.
What people don't seem to get, or some people anyway, is that while the County League is taken fairly seriously, it has NO BEARING whatsoever on championship. There are teams who have played Division 1 football while still being Junior because they can't win the Junior championship. Some people seem to think this shouldn't be allowed. I have no idea why. Some of the stuff mentioned in this thread about teams getting automatically promoted in a championship level because of league status et..is just madness to me.
I couldn't give a fiddlers what Dublin or any other county do though. As FTB mentioned above, there is all sorts of systems out there. The Tipp Hurling championship has 32 clubs in it for example. What we do, works for us and has worked for years.
I actually disagree massively with the Kerry board regarding the changes being made this year as they have cut the number of clubs down to 8 in the Senior championship which is slightly too few. I do agree with keeping the standard of the championship high though and there have been a number of clubs that have played Senior that weren't up to it. The divisional teams have been a huge source of strength in the competition, which is something that not many outsiders even understand frankly.
The Kerry board have actually messed this around a bit aswell but no point going into it here.
Overall, I can see why people look at the Intermediate/Junior success Kerry teams have had and point fingers but the whole thing leads back to protection of the standard of the Senior championship, which to be quite honest had dipped badly in quality for a few years since the mid 2000's.
That's it in a nutshell. The problem most people seem to have is that there are not enough senior club teams in Kerry. To be honest I think they have it spot on, although as I said this year I think the Marys should be Senior Club, even if they decide to go with South in the County Championship.
Kerry do everything they do in order to increase the quality of their championship, and to benefit their inter county teams, and Senior in particular. I think it behoves every other county to ask are they doing the same?
Having seen Templenoe first hand I can tell you they are a significant cut above Junior standard, as has been mentioned they could beat plenty of senior teams in counties around the country and indeed finished above St Marys, the All-Ireland intermediate champions in Kerry D2 league.
What we're saying here is Kerry wins an All-Ireland, natural order, move along, nothing to see here.
I feel for the opposition who got a free lesson/hammering in Croke Park yesterday but like I said, move along, nothing to see here.
It's really quite simple.
If all counties used their club leagues to gauge their championship standing then it wouldn't be difficult and no one could have any gripes.
If Kerry has 60 clubs let the top 15 in the county leagues play senior, the next 15 play inter, 15 after play Junior and the last 15 play novice. If Armagh has 48 clubs, top 16 play senior, middle 16 play inter and the bottom 16 play junior.
Quote from: clarshack on February 06, 2016, 05:20:49 PM
intermediate final is tight, 0-6 each at h/t.
these 2 teams would never be intermediate in Tyrone.
Junior C I suppose.
Quote from: Ciarrai_thuaidh on February 07, 2016, 01:40:11 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 07, 2016, 12:53:33 AM
well there are 70 teams in Kerry give or take, where would you rate this team in the county, what number? In Dublin they have or had Division 1, Division 2 and B then divisions 1-9 (or the case been about 15yrs back) The Division 4 level (out of the 1-9) would been the same level as the Derry Junior back then . Cork have over 200 teams
if they operated the same way Kerry do with Division 1 teams playing junior, would Cork and Dublin teams not be on contention at Junior and intermediate every year, this is not the case.
There are 60 teams in the Kerry structure. 5 Divisions of 12 in the County League.
What people don't seem to get, or some people anyway, is that while the County League is taken fairly seriously, it has NO BEARING whatsoever on championship. There are teams who have played Division 1 football while still being Junior because they can't win the Junior championship. Some people seem to think this shouldn't be allowed. I have no idea why. Some of the stuff mentioned in this thread about teams getting automatically promoted in a championship level because of league status et..is just madness to me.
I couldn't give a fiddlers what Dublin or any other county do though. As FTB mentioned above, there is all sorts of systems out there. The Tipp Hurling championship has 32 clubs in it for example. What we do, works for us and has worked for years.
I actually disagree massively with the Kerry board regarding the changes being made this year as they have cut the number of clubs down to 8 in the Senior championship which is slightly too few. I do agree with keeping the standard of the championship high though and there have been a number of clubs that have played Senior that weren't up to it. The divisional teams have been a huge source of strength in the competition, which is something that not many outsiders even understand frankly.
The Kerry board have actually messed this around a bit aswell but no point going into it here.
Overall, I can see why people look at the Intermediate/Junior success Kerry teams have had and point fingers but the whole thing leads back to protection of the standard of the Senior championship, which to be quite honest had dipped badly in quality for a few years since the mid 2000's.
Mid nineties since a Kerry senior club won the All Ireland it does seem while Kerry have strengthened their intermediate and junior grades they have also weakened their senior championship.
Quote from: tiempo on February 07, 2016, 12:45:55 PM
Having seen Templenoe first hand I can tell you they are a significant cut above Junior standard, as has been mentioned they could beat plenty of senior teams in counties around the country and indeed finished above St Marys, the All-Ireland intermediate champions in Kerry D2 league.
What we're saying here is Kerry wins an All-Ireland, natural order, move along, nothing to see here.
I feel for the opposition who got a free lesson/hammering in Croke Park yesterday but like I said, move along, nothing to see here.
Good post!
Look this not to begrudging St. Marys/Templenoe their day in the sun. Especially Templenoe, who are on a remarkable journey. Just that teams they beat along the way are judged wrongly as to their skill set and standard. Yesterday, A good Mayo Junior side - Ardnaree were made look like a Junior 'b' team in an All Ireland final. The uneducated public look at this and think. Ah, what do you expect? Sure it was a Kerry team v a Mayo team. Sure Kerry always have the better footballers!
This is not Kerrys fault their Championship structure makes sure they have above the standard Junior and Intermediate teams as Champions. The Acid test as to the strength of their Clubs is the success of their Senior Clubs on the national stage which has been weak the last decade or two.
I think ye are asking the wrong question. Maybe the question is 'Why do we (insert county here) have so many senior clubs?'. I know there's a fixation among clubs to be seen as senior, but really, what is it about? If you have 16 senior clubs, you have too many in my opinion.
That's where Kerry are coming from. They want a strong competitive championship at each grade, and that's why they include Divisional Sides in the County Championship, and why they limit the number of Senior Clubs.
I would say, also, that it leads to a significant levelling of standards across club football at the lower levels, and that's why there's a spread of All Ireland winners from the likes of Beale (now Div 5) up to Saint Mary's.
The league is irrelevant,and comments about linking the leagues to the championships are spurious, as I do not believe that to be the case in most counties.
The real question is have Kerry 'unfairly' limited their senior clubs. I believe they have not. I believe they have made a decision which benefits the overall standard and crucially (and most importantly in their eyes) has benefitted the County teams.
I think teams that have their 20th best team being a senior club are the ones who have it arse about face, not Kerry.
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 07, 2016, 01:03:00 PM
Quote from: tiempo on February 07, 2016, 12:45:55 PM
Having seen Templenoe first hand I can tell you they are a significant cut above Junior standard, as has been mentioned they could beat plenty of senior teams in counties around the country and indeed finished above St Marys, the All-Ireland intermediate champions in Kerry D2 league.
What we're saying here is Kerry wins an All-Ireland, natural order, move along, nothing to see here.
I feel for the opposition who got a free lesson/hammering in Croke Park yesterday but like I said, move along, nothing to see here.
Good post!
Look this not to begrudging St. Marys/Templenoe their day in the sun. Especially Templenoe, who are on a remarkable journey. Just that teams they beat along the way are judged wrongly as to their skill set and standard. Yesterday, A good Mayo Junior side - Ardnaree were made look like a Junior 'b' team in an All Ireland final. The uneducated public look at this and think. Ah, what do you expect? Sure it was a Kerry team v a Mayo team. Sure Kerry always have the better footballers!
This is not Kerrys fault their Championship structure makes sure they have above the standard Junior and Intermediate teams as Champions. The Acid test as to the strength of their Clubs is the success of their Senior Clubs on the national stage which has been weak the last decade or two.
Not sure I necessarily agree with this either. The Acid test really is how competitive are their clubs at a National level, and how widespread is success. I would also say the acid test for their structures are the flow of players to the County set up. In both scenarios I would say they are successful. They don't have a Nemo Rangers or a Crossmaglen, but they do have several clubs who have been competitive, and they have players from all these clubs, and divisions, playing for Kerry and winning All Irelands. That's the key.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 07, 2016, 09:57:25 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 07, 2016, 01:03:00 PM
Quote from: tiempo on February 07, 2016, 12:45:55 PM
Having seen Templenoe first hand I can tell you they are a significant cut above Junior standard, as has been mentioned they could beat plenty of senior teams in counties around the country and indeed finished above St Marys, the All-Ireland intermediate champions in Kerry D2 league.
What we're saying here is Kerry wins an All-Ireland, natural order, move along, nothing to see here.
I feel for the opposition who got a free lesson/hammering in Croke Park yesterday but like I said, move along, nothing to see here.
Good post!
Look this not to begrudging St. Marys/Templenoe their day in the sun. Especially Templenoe, who are on a remarkable journey. Just that teams they beat along the way are judged wrongly as to their skill set and standard. Yesterday, A good Mayo Junior side - Ardnaree were made look like a Junior 'b' team in an All Ireland final. The uneducated public look at this and think. Ah, what do you expect? Sure it was a Kerry team v a Mayo team. Sure Kerry always have the better footballers!
This is not Kerrys fault their Championship structure makes sure they have above the standard Junior and Intermediate teams as Champions. The Acid test as to the strength of their Clubs is the success of their Senior Clubs on the national stage which has been weak the last decade or two.
Not sure I necessarily agree with this either. The Acid test really is how competitive are their clubs at a National level, and how widespread is success. I would also say the acid test for their structures are the flow of players to the County set up. In both scenarios I would say they are successful. They don't have a Nemo Rangers or a Crossmaglen, but they do have several clubs who have been competitive, and they have players from all these clubs, and divisions, playing for Kerry and winning All Irelands. That's the key.
The point is Kerry are dominating Intermediate and Junior because on top of them having top players they are Graded differently. Senior is what it is! You cannot grade them differently to other counties. A high tide should rise all boats. So if intermediate and Junior are winning titles easily and not taking advantage, why are the Seniors not? What is the problem? There should have been a couple of AI's, should they not?
Not necessarily. I know what you are saying, but I think you're putting too much emphasis on it. Kerry has a large number of very good club teams. They do not have many 'great' club teams. They prefer a great County team.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 07, 2016, 10:28:05 PM
Not necessarily. I know what you are saying, but I think you're putting too much emphasis on it. Kerry has a large number of very good club teams. They do not have many 'great' club teams. They prefer a great County team.
Look, I'm not knocking the Kerry Clubs success on the weekend. Especially Templenoe, who are really a Junior side when it comes to the size of their catchment and the effort they have gone to to get where they are. It's just the impression it leaves to the uneducated GAA person of how far ahead they are of the clubs from other counties. St. Marys being available to win the Intermediate makes a mockery of things next year.
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 07, 2016, 10:40:30 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 07, 2016, 10:28:05 PM
Not necessarily. I know what you are saying, but I think you're putting too much emphasis on it. Kerry has a large number of very good club teams. They do not have many 'great' club teams. They prefer a great County team.
Look, I'm not knocking the Kerry Clubs success on the weekend. Especially Templenoe, who are really a Junior side when it comes to the size of their catchment and the effort they have gone to to get where they are. It's just the impression it leaves to the uneducated GAA person of how far ahead they are of the clubs from other counties. St. Marys being available to win the Intermediate makes a mockery of things next year.
I agree with that!