As the title suggests why do people think the British establishment hold on to the rights of the north when economically it has no real value to them.
Quote from: Hereiam on November 13, 2014, 10:52:50 AM
As the title suggests why do people think the British establishment hold on to the rights of the north when economically it has no real value to them.
Imperialism.
Quote from: Hereiam on November 13, 2014, 10:52:50 AM
As the title suggests why do people think the British establishment hold on to the rights of the north when economically it has no real value to them.
Have you heard of the Good Friday Agreement?
Quote from: Rossfan on November 13, 2014, 10:57:35 AM
Quote from: Hereiam on November 13, 2014, 10:52:50 AM
As the title suggests why do people think the British establishment hold on to the rights of the north when economically it has no real value to them.
Have you heard of the Good Friday Agreement?
The British
imposed negotiated the Good Friday Agreement. It's the expression of their desire, not the desire itself.
The plantation of Ulster was a mistake
And it's very hard to unwind it
It reminds me of that joke by Lenny Bruce
A lot of people say to me, "Why did you kill Christ?" I dunno, it was one of those parties, got out of hand, you know.
Quote from: seafoid on November 13, 2014, 11:39:57 AM
The plantation of Ulster was a mistake
And it's very hard to unwind it
It reminds me of that joke by Lenny Bruce
A lot of people say to me, "Why did you kill Christ?" I dunno, it was one of those parties, got out of hand, you know.
Typical seafoid, making light of the state murder of a Jew.
;)
Quote from: deiseach on November 13, 2014, 11:44:19 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 13, 2014, 11:39:57 AM
The plantation of Ulster was a mistake
And it's very hard to unwind it
It reminds me of that joke by Lenny Bruce
A lot of people say to me, "Why did you kill Christ?" I dunno, it was one of those parties, got out of hand, you know.
Typical seafoid, making light of the state murder of a Jew.
;)
Ye'll have Sheehy goin stone mad now ::)
Quote from: Hereiam on November 13, 2014, 10:52:50 AM
As the title suggests why do people think the British establishment hold on to the rights of the north when economically it has no real value to them.
isn't it currently part of their constitution?
politically there are votes there that could assist in forming a government in a tight election (as was the case at times in in 70's/80's/90's - and the unionist vote was garnered - before sf were winning seats)
its very hard to offload an area unless there is willingness and ability in another (host) country to offload it too!
Didn't someone from the british establishment say a year or two ago that britain had no strategic interest in northern ireland?
Quote from: Rossfan on November 13, 2014, 11:51:55 AM
Quote from: deiseach on November 13, 2014, 11:44:19 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 13, 2014, 11:39:57 AM
The plantation of Ulster was a mistake
And it's very hard to unwind it
It reminds me of that joke by Lenny Bruce
A lot of people say to me, "Why did you kill Christ?" I dunno, it was one of those parties, got out of hand, you know.
Typical seafoid, making light of the state murder of a Jew.
;)
Ye'll have Sheehy goin stone mad now ::)
Nope, that's fine. If you lads are ok with this kind of craic then so be it.
Who would they give it up to? The question you are asking assumes that there is somewhere willing to take it over from them.
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
If you want to see how the establishment in Britain view the North, look no further than Richard Dannatt's contribution to the Scottish independence debat (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/14/richard-dannatt-scottish-independence_n_5817722.html)e. If one of them can say with a straight face in relation to Scotland that a vote to leave the Union was a vote for the IRA, then it shouldn't be too hard to see their reaction to the prospect of the same thing happening in Norn Iron.
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
That may be your experience. It would not be mine.
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
this shot went out for a throw in
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
savages, savages the lot of them ::)
Quote from: mickey80 on November 13, 2014, 02:08:30 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
Awwww please mister, will you not allow me to be Irish just like you?
Be careful what you wish for Mickeen - it's no bed of roses bein a Rhubarb ya know. :'(
Quote from: JoG2 on November 13, 2014, 02:40:15 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
this shot went out for a throw in
We call them 'sidelines' round our manor. I mean parish. Man, this is hard!
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
I wouldn't say that. They are all Irish up there.
Big deal if there is a border.
I think there is a huge difference between talking to a Unionist and talking to someone from England. Innit
You could see why they would want to hold on to Scotland as most of the oil/gas in within Scotland's limits. What have we over here....... nothing.
It costs the British people a fortune in grants that are given out here, mostly to the paramilitaries if the truth were told.
What sort of event would it take now for the north to be handed back to the south. As you seen from the Scottish referendum all the dirt of the day was threw up and it was pure scaremongering by Britain that won the day and as sure as hell the same would happen here if it ever does come to it.
Whatever the truth is about Scotland's net contribution to the UK economy, there are definitely large swathes of England and Wales that are a net drain on the public purse, and provide offence to the establishment with their uncouth bitter-swilling, football-loving, church-avoiding, anthem/poppy-disrespecting, Queen's-English-mangling ways. And yet there is no desire on the part of the establishment to get rid of them. Rationally it made no sense for David Cameron et al to campaign so vigorously against Scottish independence. Ditching all those Labour-supporting Jocks would have boosted the chances of a thousand-year Tory Reich. But what's the point of being an imperialist if you have no one to look down on?
QuoteAs you seen from the Scottish referendum all the dirt of the day was threw up and it was pure scaremongering by Britain that won the day and as sure as hell the same would happen here if it ever does come to it.
I don't think so, if there is a deal at our end I think the British government (whaever about the loopers) will play ball.
Quote from: deiseach on November 13, 2014, 02:35:40 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
That may be your experience. It would not be mine.
Nor mine.
A lot of unionist commentators claim (with a smirk on their face) that the south doesnt want the north.
Who are these people from the south that don't want us northerners?
Are you one of them? If so, what is your address so that I can go round and kick your crap in.
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
It doesn't matter at all whether northerners are 'like' southerners, or Scots, or anybody else. We're born and bred on the island of Ireland for hundreds or thousands of years: that means we're Irish. It's not a franchise held by people from the south of the island, to be dispensed by them to citizens who pass the 'just like us' test.
Quote from: deiseach on November 13, 2014, 04:12:15 PM
Whatever the truth is about Scotland's net contribution to the UK economy, there are definitely large swathes of England and Wales that are a net drain on the public purse, and provide offence to the establishment with their uncouth bitter-swilling, football-loving, church-avoiding, anthem/poppy-disrespecting, Queen's-English-mangling ways. And yet there is no desire on the part of the establishment to get rid of them. Rationally it made no sense for David Cameron et al to campaign so vigorously against Scottish independence. Ditching all those Labour-supporting Jocks would have boosted the chances of a thousand-year Tory Reich. But what's the point of being an imperialist if you have no one to look down on?
Northern England is a lot poorer than London.
http://www.cityam.com/1413313486/where-is-the-richest-place-in-europe-inner-london-came-out-top
Quote from: deiseach on November 13, 2014, 11:09:38 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 13, 2014, 10:57:35 AM
Quote from: Hereiam on November 13, 2014, 10:52:50 AM
As the title suggests why do people think the British establishment hold on to the rights of the north when economically it has no real value to them.
Have you heard of the Good Friday Agreement?
The British imposed negotiated the Good Friday Agreement. It's the expression of their desire, not the desire itself.
The parties in the north negotiated the Good Friday Agreement and the people of Ireland voted for it.
Quote from: seafoid on November 13, 2014, 03:43:49 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
I wouldn't say that. They are all Irish up there.
Big deal if there is a border.
I think there is a huge difference between talking to a Unionist and talking to someone from England. Innit
It was never much of a border even when they wanted it to be one.
So nationalists go marching on the 12th Bunker? Loyalists wear Easter lilies? How are they indistinguishable?
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
I obviously don't know you but if, like mine, your family is hundreds of years in Mayo, you may find that before the 1600s & 1700s many of them were in Ulster.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 13, 2014, 11:56:44 AM
isn't it currently part of their constitution?
politically there are votes there that could assist in forming a government in a tight election (as was the case at times in in 70's/80's/90's - and the unionist vote was garnered - before sf were winning seats)
its very hard to offload an area unless there is willingness and ability in another (host) country to offload it too!
Yes and no. Unlike, for example, the Republic of Ireland, the UK has no single codified document entitled 'the constitution', therefore, the constitution is all the disperate laws which concern the governance of the UK. As those laws have to refer to electoral procedure (amongst other things) in NI, then the UK's governance of NI is in the constitution. But that means it's easy to take out of the constitution, as only those laws which affect NI are removed, and the UK of GB (*some of us are hoping for a second chance to end
that anomaly*) carries on as before.
The local parties in NI probably have less Westminster relevance following the recent coalition between 2 mainstream parties.
Quote from: muppet on November 13, 2014, 08:37:12 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
I obviously don't know you but if, like mine, your family is hundreds of years in Mayo, you may find that before the 1600s & 1700s many of them were in Ulster.
Yeah, what you say is true. My ancestor(s) came to Mayo in the 1700's from Antrim and settled just west of Castlebar. Look i was not being derogatory to the people of the North. Far from it. I was just saying that (I think) the hardship, environment, rules, etc would naturally mean both communities have allot more in common. I was not saying either community was less Scotch Protestant or Irish, Just that they have more in common than they think!
This is looking from a distance for most of my Lifetime and I would in no way tell anyone who are what they are. They know who they are themselves!
Quote from: muppet on November 13, 2014, 08:37:12 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
I obviously don't know you but if, like mine, your family is hundreds of years in Mayo, you may find that before the 1600s & 1700s many of them were in Ulster.
What names in Mayo would indicate the family came from Ulster during the 16/1700s ?
Quote from: seafoid on November 13, 2014, 09:35:50 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 13, 2014, 08:37:12 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
I obviously don't know you but if, like mine, your family is hundreds of years in Mayo, you may find that before the 1600s & 1700s many of them were in Ulster.
What names in Mayo would indicate the family came from Ulster during the 16/1700s ?
Anything associated with the Donegal O'Donnell Clan for starters. Gallagher, Sweeney, Clery (Clarke) Dever, McGinley, McGinty, Cafferkey, Cattigan, Scanlon, Patten, Padden, Corrigan, Cattigan, McLaughlin etc. Then there were the Doherty and their offshoot the Munnellys, Cooneys, Doogans, Duggan, Kilbane, McManamon (?), McCann and so on.
Some light reading on the subject:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DNA-R1B1C7/2007-06/1181100681 (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DNA-R1B1C7/2007-06/1181100681)
http://www.drumgallaghns.com/ballycroy.html (http://www.drumgallaghns.com/ballycroy.html)
Quote from: muppet on November 13, 2014, 09:45:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 13, 2014, 09:35:50 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 13, 2014, 08:37:12 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
I obviously don't know you but if, like mine, your family is hundreds of years in Mayo, you may find that before the 1600s & 1700s many of them were in Ulster.
What names in Mayo would indicate the family came from Ulster during the 16/1700s ?
Anything associated with the Donegal O'Donnell Clan for starters. Gallagher, Sweeney, Clery (Clarke) Dever, McGinley, McGinty, Cafferkey, Cattigan, Scanlon, Patten, Padden, Corrigan, Cattigan, McLaughlin etc. Then there were the Doherty and their offshoot the Munnellys, Cooneys, Doogans, Duggan, Kilbane, McManamon (?), McCann and so on.
Some light reading on the subject:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DNA-R1B1C7/2007-06/1181100681 (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DNA-R1B1C7/2007-06/1181100681)
http://www.drumgallaghns.com/ballycroy.html (http://www.drumgallaghns.com/ballycroy.html)
An informative read.........
North Mayo Historical Journal
Vol. II, No. 3, 1989-90Migration from Ulster to County Mayoin
1795-'96
By
Cardinal Tomas O'Fiaich.
Quote from: LondonCamanachd on November 13, 2014, 09:19:43 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 13, 2014, 11:56:44 AM
isn't it currently part of their constitution?
politically there are votes there that could assist in forming a government in a tight election (as was the case at times in in 70's/80's/90's - and the unionist vote was garnered - before sf were winning seats)
its very hard to offload an area unless there is willingness and ability in another (host) country to offload it too!
Yes and no. Unlike, for example, the Republic of Ireland, the UK has no single codified document entitled 'the constitution', therefore, the constitution is all the disperate laws which concern the governance of the UK. As those laws have to refer to electoral procedure (amongst other things) in NI, then the UK's governance of NI is in the constitution. But that means it's easy to take out of the constitution, as only those laws which affect NI are removed, and the UK of GB (*some of us are hoping for a second chance to end that anomaly*) carries on as before.
The local parties in NI probably have less Westminster relevance following the recent coalition between 2 mainstream parties.
Even if not documented, the precedent of paying welfare, funding governmental ,civil service and associated bodies/agencies, overseeing medical, policing, educational etc etc bodies would be effectively contractual - while the British gov could essentially stop all these ( and have everything turn into a lawless Neanderthal quagmire - would anyone notice??) I'd say this won't happen as it just isn't cricket - and the English aren't a bad lot - once they aren't invading or at war with you!
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 10:07:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 13, 2014, 09:45:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 13, 2014, 09:35:50 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 13, 2014, 08:37:12 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
I obviously don't know you but if, like mine, your family is hundreds of years in Mayo, you may find that before the 1600s & 1700s many of them were in Ulster.
What names in Mayo would indicate the family came from Ulster during the 16/1700s ?
Anything associated with the Donegal O'Donnell Clan for starters. Gallagher, Sweeney, Clery (Clarke) Dever, McGinley, McGinty, Cafferkey, Cattigan, Scanlon, Patten, Padden, Corrigan, Cattigan, McLaughlin etc. Then there were the Doherty and their offshoot the Munnellys, Cooneys, Doogans, Duggan, Kilbane, McManamon (?), McCann and so on.
Some light reading on the subject:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DNA-R1B1C7/2007-06/1181100681 (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DNA-R1B1C7/2007-06/1181100681)
http://www.drumgallaghns.com/ballycroy.html (http://www.drumgallaghns.com/ballycroy.html)
An informative read.........
North Mayo Historical Journal
Vol. II, No. 3, 1989-90
Migration from Ulster to County Mayo
in
1795-'96
By
Cardinal Tomas O'Fiaich.
Nice one. Hadn't seen that before.
My surname isn't in that list. Must be 100% Connacht. ;D
It always comes back to Mayo. Bastards.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on November 13, 2014, 10:53:41 PM
My surname isn't in that list. Must be 100% Connacht. ;D
100% on your fathers side is all that proves! ;)
Quote from: muppet on November 13, 2014, 09:45:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 13, 2014, 09:35:50 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 13, 2014, 08:37:12 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on November 13, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Northern Ireland has spent the guts of 100 years now an entity of it's own. No matter how much each one tries to deny it Loyalists and Republicans are more alike than there Scottish and Southern cousins respectively. The struggle on both sides has made them almost indistinguishable.
I obviously don't know you but if, like mine, your family is hundreds of years in Mayo, you may find that before the 1600s & 1700s many of them were in Ulster.
What names in Mayo would indicate the family came from Ulster during the 16/1700s ?
Anything associated with the Donegal O'Donnell Clan for starters. Gallagher, Sweeney, Clery (Clarke) Dever, McGinley, McGinty, Cafferkey, Cattigan, Scanlon, Patten, Padden, Corrigan, Cattigan, McLaughlin etc. Then there were the Doherty and their offshoot the Munnellys, Cooneys, Doogans, Duggan, Kilbane, McManamon (?), McCann and so on.
Some light reading on the subject:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DNA-R1B1C7/2007-06/1181100681 (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DNA-R1B1C7/2007-06/1181100681)
http://www.drumgallaghns.com/ballycroy.html (http://www.drumgallaghns.com/ballycroy.html)
GRMA
I think the McManamons are related to the Mannions and the Mongans and were there before that 17th century clearance sale.
I read a review of this book one time on Aer Lingus and I found it recently . There was a mention about Belgian celtic tribes that was very interesting.There are loads of Mannions down our way.
http://www.celticcafe.com/archive/Books/mongan/index.htm
The Menapii are the only known Celtic tribe specifically named on Ptolemy's 150 A.D. map of Ireland, where they located their first trading colony -- Menapia -- on the Leinster coast circa 216 .D. They later settled around Lough Erne, becoming known as the Fir Manach, and giving their name to Fermanagh and Monaghan.
Mongan mac Fiachna, a 7th-century King of Ulster, is the protagonist of several legends linking him with Manannan mac Lir. They spread across Ireland, evolving into historic Irish (also Scottish and Manx) clans whose descendants are found worldwide today:
Mooney - Meaney - Meeny - McWeeney - Monaghan - Monahan - Mannion - Manning - Mongan - Mangan - Minogue - Minnock - Mannix - Manahan - Mongey - Mongavin - McMannion - McMenamin - McMonagle - Marannan - MurnaneAnd Duggan is a Connacht name as well
http://www.oocities.org/wfhasweb/duggan_history.html
According to the "Book of Lecan", compiled in 1418 by Giolla Íosa Mac Firbish, the Sogain (of whom the Ó Dubhagáins were part), were descended from Sodain who was son of Fiacha Araidh, King of Ulster, about 240 A.DI think the Sodain were one of those Belgian tribes originally . There are a few places in East Galway named after them.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 13, 2014, 06:31:35 PM
Quote from: deiseach on November 13, 2014, 11:09:38 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 13, 2014, 10:57:35 AM
Quote from: Hereiam on November 13, 2014, 10:52:50 AM
As the title suggests why do people think the British establishment hold on to the rights of the north when economically it has no real value to them.
Have you heard of the Good Friday Agreement?
The British imposed negotiated the Good Friday Agreement. It's the expression of their desire, not the desire itself.
The parties in the north negotiated the Good Friday Agreement and the people of Ireland voted for it.
And if the government of the UK decides to unilaterally pull the plug on it, the people of Ireland will be able to do nothing about it.