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Something I have wondered for a long time and would appreciate reasoned feedback.

Do Protestants in the Republic generally follow and support Gaelic sports and gaelic culture  ?

In Northern Ireland there are obvious historical reasons why Protestants don't generally follow GAA sports and culture and I suppose that is the way things will remain, but are things different 'down south'.

Does Protestant support differ depending on where in the Republic they may live.

On a more general point (and excuse me if I am being thick !) but are Protestants totally integrated into the Republic of Ireland and loyal to it or are at least some of them residual Unionists ?

Just to mention, this post is in no way intended to cause any offence at all. It is just a genuine point of interest.

Thanks

Quotebut are Protestants totally integrated into the Republic of Ireland and loyal to it or are at least some of them residual Unionists ?

On all parts of this spectrum.

I know of one club in the North where a lady is a respected member of a GAA club's committee,and her father is a respected member of the Orange Order.I kid you not!

Hi Sooty, it depends on the religion if you get me. I mean I know a few CoI people who play GAA at underage in our club, yet there are some Presbyterians resident in the parish who wouldn't go next nor near the pitch. That's the best example I can give.

Not many Protestants round here but a number play football ( gaelic that is).
Mind you their parents wouldn't have taken any part while I'd suspect their grandparents would have preferred to have been part of the UK.
I doubt if any of the younger set or their parents would consider themselves anything other than Irish and loyal citizens of the State.

I used to do a lot of business with an estate agent in Belfast, he is a very respectable man, now in his late 60s, originally from the country and at one stage would have been a member of the Royal Black Institution and the Orange Order. His daughters all married Catholics and he had to leave both organisations and while religion and politics have never been an issue between us I have always sensed an uneasiness when it comes to the GAA. He doesn't seem to be able to accept it as a purely sporting organisation but can give no reason as to why. I was in his office as recently as the day after the All Ireland football final and no one had a clue as to who was playing or who won, though surprisingly they all knew Tyrone weren't involved and it seems we share a mutual dislike of a certain Mr Harte, though probably for different reasons.

But the GAA is not and never has been a purely sporting organisation.

I used to work with and was good friends with a Presbyterian girl (from Southside of Dublin) with a very Scottish lowland sounding name, religion and politics never raised their head until one day she misinterpreted a joking comment aimed at another member of the group (who was a Catholic from Cork). Well she took a bit of a hump and got very Republican until someone calmed her don by explaining it was an "in-joke" that she must not have been aware of. She is now married to a hurling mad lad from Munster. Before she copped she had got the wrong end of the stick, she actually had a little anti-Ulster rant as if she found Unionists up North a bit of an embarrassment.

The only other time religion was mentioned was when she got close to almost insulting me herself another time when she asked was the reason I had so many cousins was because my grandparents being Catholics might not want to use condoms. I just said that the quality of latex in Mayo was substandard.

I have played football with a few COI lads in the past.

On loyalty to the Republic I think most I know would be fairly patriotic Irish. I have met a few who consider themselves very Irish but have a softspot for things British.

Quote from: fearglasmor on October 21, 2013, 11:24:02 PM
But the GAA is not and never has been a purely sporting organisation.

Exactly. The GAA in many parts is a cold house for protestants or any other religion.

Although I'd like to see the GAA strip itself slowly from all religious paraphernalia, I know that probably will not happen. Some will say rightly so as some religious orders kept the game alive in some areas. We're tied down in that respect.

That's where hurling traditions where you wouldn't expect it came from. They wouldn't have that influence now.

Seems to be plenty of LOL's still operating in the south. Unsure how representative of the overall Presbyterian population down there ......the gene pool doesn't look big though from watching them.

I know several pradastints that play football.

The most encouraging thing for me is that, in my locality at least, the mediaeval labels are becoming less and less recognised or noticed. That applies completely and comprehensively, as far as I can tell, in my kids' generation, but to a large extent in my own also.

I live in a village with a higher than average CofI population (including, of course, those who are culturally, if not practising "Protestant). The label rarely occurs to me in normal daily discourse with my neighbours, even among those I know to be of that heritage. I'm sure the same applies to them. It doesn't occur to us, as far as I can tell in reading others' attitudes, to think of each other in those terms. There are many whose religion I don't know, now that I think of it. There are some whom I assumed to be "Protestant", in so far as it occurred to me, based on their names, who turned out to be Catholic when a funeral or the like cropped up.

Certainly, it would never occur to me, or to anyone I know here of my tribe, to question the patriotism or loyalty to the state of anyone here calling themselves Protestant. It's simply not a consideration and we discuss politics, sport and general affairs over pints the same as any group of people, with no consideration at all, that I can detect, for the possibility that a person's political opinion might be coloured by their nominal religion.

As regards sport, the old distinctions are also rapidly fading, with Catholic CBC and Pres boys more likely to play rugby than GAA and the children of Protestant families who haven't gone to the fee-paying schools, more likely to play football and hurling (and/or soccer) than rugby - just like Catholic lads. Everybody in any company I shared was talking hurling a few weeks ago, regardless of religious background.

When it comes to my kids' generation, I'm absolutely certain that if I gave my lads a list of local lads of their generation, they couldn't reliably tell me their religious backgrounds, other than by inference based on the school they attended, though that would lead them badly astray in many cases. When I think of it, I don't remember ever hearing the word "Protestant" either from my own kids or anyone of their generation.

Won't it be a great day when a thread like this would make as much sense as one headed "Redheads and the GAA".

I was at the opening of a high profile 'centre of excellence' recently involving political and economic heavyweights. The first 10 mins of a 90 min speech-making session was a local priest reading some kind of gospelly preachy thing. Gobsmacked is too extreme but I did feel I was back in 1980.

to be fair I work in a mixed office which originally was a blue blood unionist firm , we now sponsor 2 gaelic teams and most of the firm will know who played at the weekend, whilst my colleagues from other faiths mightn't play the game they are all suitably impressed by how interwoven it is in the community.
the north will always have diffs attracting unionists because of the national anthem, tricolour, emphasis on a 32 county Ireland etc but that is why I think it is also strong in nationalist areas ( we can express our irishness without having to be shinners)

Quote from: ONeill on October 22, 2013, 10:43:42 AM
I was at the opening of a high profile 'centre of excellence' recently involving political and economic heavyweights. The first 10 mins of a 90 min speech-making session was a local priest reading some kind of gospelly preachy thing. Gobsmacked is too extreme but I did feel I was back in 1980.

Yeah - that stuff is an anachronism. It will die out naturally, being part of a continuum that used to involve bishop-ring-kissing and "Faith Of Our Fathers" before the throw-in.

Personally I think we should actively put an end to it. Sectarianism, which this is, however mild, has no place in the modern GAA. It's just a gratuitous insult to our members who are protestant, muslim, people of other religions or of no religion a all. It's saying to them "stand aside there for ten minutes while the real GAA does this important stuff you're not a part of."

While beating ourselves up over the displays of Popery that infest the GAA (and I'll admit that at best they're corny, at worst they're off-putting), the issue of Protestant schools and the GAA always seems be be glossed over. I've recently added to the Protestant population of Ireland and while it is going to be a few years before it is something that needs to be addressed, I'm wondering whether sending him to the local CoI primary school might clash with a desire to play Gaelic games. If you're only playing hurling at the club and all other things are equal, are you worse off than those who play in their schools as well? It might never be an issue - maybe he'll be into ballet - but when the school of a Tipperary All-Ireland hurling winning captain and Dublin football captain (http://www.kingshospital.ie/thekingshospital/Main/PPU_About.htm) doesn't have a hurling or a football team, something is not right.

We've had a prodestant head of the GAA

I've lived in the north and its much more of an issue up there, understandably so.
At home its not really, I still see my parents generation would reference someone if they were CoI, usually followed by "but they're decent people", its a generation thing I suppose, their parents would have fought for Ireland.
I have a presbeterian brother in law, south african, and another sister seeing a CoI man, neither is an issue in our house, but my gf used to date a prodestant and would say it was an issue for her, she wants her kids raised catholic

I've been married to a prod for years, kids go to the local school which is mixed, not intergrated. They came to the club tried and aren't fussed on camogie or ladies football, mad keen on hockey now and I'm just happy they are playing sport. Though they do play hockey in their Naomh Gall tops (sponsored by a Prod firm).

A lot of my friends from where I reside now are mad rugby men who are keen on Gaelic games and would be up to date on the bigger games and would ask me regularly how my team would be getting on. In the estates I know it is a lot different and this is fed by the parents who lived on the 'Gaa is the IRA at play' slogans, which has been used to kill many a Gaa clubman over the years.

Prods here in the north won't accept it in the main, I would love it to be different as Antrim as a county would benefit from having a wider pool of players to pick from but I can't see it happening unless it's through more mixed marriages (mixed marriages but we both aren't practicing any religion)

I remember getting a call from the wife telling me there was a full scale hurling match going on in the street, my kids got all the sticks and helmets from the garage and handed them out to their friends and they had an organised hurling match in the street!! they could only find a first touch ball which possibly saved me a few pounds in broken windows which would have been the case with ordinary ball.

If the kids were allowed to think for themselves we'd have a better place, unfortunately they are fed crap all their days and that's all they know

Thanks for the insight, Milltown Row2, +1.

Protestants make great wing forwards.

Myself & a Derry man used to live in the middle of a very loyalist area in Rosetta Belfast.
There were UVF flags often on display and whilst we never had any problems we were always wary of showing our colours even in our cars.

One day we were going to Casement to a Derry v Armagh game and when we walked out to the car, one of the neighbours, a man in his 60's, shouts over to us
"Good luck in the big game today boys"

Quotea very loyalist area in Rosetta Belfast.

::) The same Rosetta area where you see kids carrying hurls & wearing GAA tops every day?

As I have said before played for a St.Endas team in the 70,s at the height of our troubles and we had at least 4/5 Prods playing for us along with guys who went to jail for involvement with the IRA.St Endas had a few bomb attacks by Loyalists during this time and have had members killed but it never stopped these guys being part of the club.Have never known of anything of a sectarian nature that has  been said to them over the years and feel very proud of that.

Time the GAA side lined religion. Although as I've said on another thread the national identity woven into gaelic games in the north is very important to the nationalist community. on a side issue I've always felt myself more anglican than catholic in terms of belief but I object to the COI praying for the Queen (or president in the ROI) and its fondness for flying flags both in side and out.

Quote from: glens abu on October 22, 2013, 01:29:39 PM
As I have said before played for a St.Endas team in the 70,s at the height of our troubles and we had at least 4/5 Prods playing for us along with guys who went to jail for involvement with the IRA.St Endas had a few bomb attacks by Loyalists during this time and have had members killed but it never stopped these guys being part of the club.Have never known of anything of a sectarian nature that has  been said to them over the years and feel very proud of that.

I always wondered who it was put the broken glass on the pitch!

Talking about Religion and the GAA Mickey Harte is a wile man for the auld Religion!!

Quote from: Lecale2 on October 22, 2013, 01:13:40 PM
::) The same Rosetta area where you see kids carrying hurls & wearing GAA tops every day?

Maybe it has changed since I lived there
There was no way I was gonna wear my Tyrone shirt down here despite the red hand symbol they all love.
http://goo.gl/maps/1UFc0

Quote from: Fuzzman on October 22, 2013, 03:58:17 PM

Quote from: Lecale2 on October 22, 2013, 01:13:40 PM
::) The same Rosetta area where you see kids carrying hurls & wearing GAA tops every day?

Maybe it has changed since I lived there
There was no way I was gonna wear my Tyrone shirt down here despite the red hand symbol they all love.
http://goo.gl/maps/1UFc0

That's the road from Rosetta down into the Cregagh road, had a look at a few houses in there way back in the early 00's, quickly decided getting the hurls in and out of the boot of the car on a july evening wouldn't be a good idea. I think I viewed a house in under 5 minutes down there.

Quote from: Fuzzman on October 22, 2013, 03:58:17 PM

Quote from: Lecale2 on October 22, 2013, 01:13:40 PM
::) The same Rosetta area where you see kids carrying hurls & wearing GAA tops every day?

Maybe it has changed since I lived there
There was no way I was gonna wear my Tyrone shirt down here despite the red hand symbol they all love.
http://goo.gl/maps/1UFc0

what ground would the floodlights in the distance be as a matter of interest

Quote from: snoopdog on October 22, 2013, 07:20:34 PM

Quote from: Fuzzman on October 22, 2013, 03:58:17 PM

Quote from: Lecale2 on October 22, 2013, 01:13:40 PM
::) The same Rosetta area where you see kids carrying hurls & wearing GAA tops every day?

Maybe it has changed since I lived there
There was no way I was gonna wear my Tyrone shirt down here despite the red hand symbol they all love.
http://goo.gl/maps/1UFc0

what ground would the floodlights in the distance be as a matter of interest

Ravenhill. You'll also notice that area is a stones throw from cherryvale which is where Bredagh play.

Quote from: Hardy on October 22, 2013, 10:54:19 AM

Quote from: ONeill on October 22, 2013, 10:43:42 AM
I was at the opening of a high profile 'centre of excellence' recently involving political and economic heavyweights. The first 10 mins of a 90 min speech-making session was a local priest reading some kind of gospelly preachy thing. Gobsmacked is too extreme but I did feel I was back in 1980.

Yeah - that stuff is an anachronism. It will die out naturally, being part of a continuum that used to involve bishop-ring-kissing and "Faith Of Our Fathers" before the throw-in.

Personally I think we should actively put an end to it. Sectarianism, which this is, however mild, has no place in the modern GAA. It's just a gratuitous insult to our members who are protestant, muslim, people of other religions or of no religion a all. It's saying to them "stand aside there for ten minutes while the real GAA does this important stuff you're not a part of."

When you put an end to one strand of sectarianism, do you create another? As physics, that energy has to transfer to somewhere else.

The expression of religion should be an individual thing, not as an organisation be it nationally, provincially or at county/club level.

Thanks for all the very interesting replies.
I had reason to be in Christ Church Cathedral in Dublin last weekend and at the start of the service the Priest addressed the congregation in Irish. This got me wondering how Southern Protestants felt about being 'Irish' and it seems from a lot of replies that they are comfortable.
How does this square with members on the Orange Order in the South ?
Are they comfortable and do they consider themselves Irish or 'cut off' Unionists. How are they viewed by other Irish citizens.I assume that most of the lodges are around the border although I think there is or was a lodge on Dublin and possibly one in Cork.
I do regret that us in the North have very narrow views of each other and unfortunately this may never change.
I have a family member living in Dublin now and of her group of friends the most accomplished Irish speaker is a Protestant. Seemed strange to me, but I suppose that is just because of our various backgrounds in Northern Ireland. 

Anyway, further comments would be welcome.

There's no sectarianism in the south because they can't remember pre 1960s.if anything they are anti Catholic if they are honest but they are not

Would guess the Cavan Monaghan and Donegal unionists would still be fairly sore about the Ulster Covenant betrayal

Quote from: rrhf on October 22, 2013, 11:12:20 PM
There's no sectarianism in the south because they can't remember pre 1960s.if anything they are anti Catholic if they are honest but they are not

The South is not anti-Catholic. In fact I honestly believe any Catholic, lay or clerical, who turns a blind eye to the abuse conducted and covered up by the Church, does more damage to it than any other influence.

Quote from: rrhf on October 22, 2013, 11:12:20 PM
There's no sectarianism in the south because they can't remember pre 1960s.if anything they are anti Catholic if they are honest but they are not

They are some shower alright

Quote from: Orior on October 22, 2013, 09:35:59 PM

Quote from: Hardy on October 22, 2013, 10:54:19 AM

Quote from: ONeill on October 22, 2013, 10:43:42 AM
I was at the opening of a high profile 'centre of excellence' recently involving political and economic heavyweights. The first 10 mins of a 90 min speech-making session was a local priest reading some kind of gospelly preachy thing. Gobsmacked is too extreme but I did feel I was back in 1980.

Yeah - that stuff is an anachronism. It will die out naturally, being part of a continuum that used to involve bishop-ring-kissing and "Faith Of Our Fathers" before the throw-in.

Personally I think we should actively put an end to it. Sectarianism, which this is, however mild, has no place in the modern GAA. It's just a gratuitous insult to our members who are protestant, muslim, people of other religions or of no religion a all. It's saying to them "stand aside there for ten minutes while the real GAA does this important stuff you're not a part of."

When you put an end to one strand of sectarianism, do you create another? As physics, that energy has to transfer to somewhere else.

I don't understand.

Quote from: rrhf on October 22, 2013, 11:12:20 PM
There's no sectarianism in the south because they can't remember pre 1960s.if anything they are anti Catholic if they are honest but they are not

There's sectarianism in the North because they can't forget pre 1700. If anything, they are anti-everything if they are honest but they are not.

If someone from down here posted something like that there would be wailing and bleating and fifteen pages of gnashing of teeth.

At least I'm not gnashing. The gnashing is the worst.

Not when your gnashers are in the way.

I played Gaelic football for 20+ years at pitches all over the country (mostly the North in fairness) I also played Irish League soccer into my mid twenties. In all that time I never saw or heard any sectarian references on a Gaelic football pitch. Maybe I was a bit naive but all I wanted to do, like 99.999% of players, was play the game I love to the best of my ability. Republicanism, Nationalism or Sectarianism just never came into it (apart from being stopped by army patrols and stripped to the boxers on a few occasions on the way to play). To me it was and is just sport!

Was called every name under the sun playing soccer however and was frightened a few times in places like Portadown and Larne. Over half my soccer team was non catholic but it didn't stop Glenavon fans threatening to kill us!! Happy times ;)

Quote from: Sooty on October 22, 2013, 11:06:23 PM

I had reason to be in Christ Church Cathedral in Dublin last weekend and at the start of the service the Priest addressed the congregation in Irish.
of her group of friends the most accomplished Irish speaker is a Protestant. Seemed strange to me, but I suppose that is just because of our various backgrounds in Northern Ireland. 

A former C of I ArchBishop of Dublin, Dr Caird was a noted Gaeilgeóir
Sure there'd be no Gaeilge any more if it wasn't for Roscommon's own Dr. Dúbhglas De hÍde a Protestant and son of a clergyman who saved the Gaeilge from dying out.

I honestly couldn't tell you the religion of anyone I played with or coached unless I happened to see them at mass or something. I think we have a few Chinese lads that might not be Catholics. I'll keep my eye on them.

Nah, seriously, I've never even thought of it. I'm sure in the north there's another dimension, but from my experience I just don't know in many cases what relegion they are. Protestants are great for being knacky corner forwards I heard though. Buddhists are great under pressure. Maybe.

Nah, seriously, I've never even thought of it. I'm sure in the north there's another dimension, but from my experience I just don't know in many cases what relegion they are. Protestants are great for being knacky corner forwards I heard though. Buddhists are great under pressure. Maybe.

Classic

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 23, 2013, 05:17:17 PM
I honestly couldn't tell you the religion of anyone I played with or coached unless I happened to see them at mass or something. I think we have a few Chinese lads that might not be Catholics. I'll keep my eye on them.

Nah, seriously, I've never even thought of it. I'm sure in the north there's another dimension, but from my experience I just don't know in many cases what relegion they are. Protestants are great for being knacky corner forwards I heard though. Buddhists are great under pressure. Maybe.

Sikhs are great for breaking ball.
Bahai are great fielders.
Gnostics keep giving the ball away.
Satanists are divils for foul-play.
Confucians talk a good game.

Quote from: muppet on October 24, 2013, 12:59:44 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 23, 2013, 05:17:17 PM
I honestly couldn't tell you the religion of anyone I played with or coached unless I happened to see them at mass or something. I think we have a few Chinese lads that might not be Catholics. I'll keep my eye on them.

Nah, seriously, I've never even thought of it. I'm sure in the north there's another dimension, but from my experience I just don't know in many cases what relegion they are. Protestants are great for being knacky corner forwards I heard though. Buddhists are great under pressure. Maybe.

Sikhs are great for breaking ball.
Bahai are great fielders.
Gnostics keep giving the ball away.
Satanists are divils for foul-play.
Confucians talk a good game.

Athiests will not listen to the Manager
Agnostics I am not so sure about.

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 23, 2013, 05:17:17 PM
I honestly couldn't tell you the religion of anyone I played with or coached unless I happened to see them at mass or something. I think we have a few Chinese lads that might not be Catholics. I'll keep my eye on them.

Nah, seriously, I've never even thought of it. I'm sure in the north there's another dimension, but from my experience I just don't know in many cases what relegion they are. Protestants are great for being knacky corner forwards I heard though. Buddhists are great under pressure. Maybe.

You know it makes sense!

There are some Protestants involved in our club. Only found out when there was a funeral of a family member or something like that. Not an issue and never has been.

I didn't think there were any prods in the south? Weren't they all killed (those not fortunate to cross the Northern border that is) at the time of partition?

Quote from: T Fearon on October 25, 2013, 07:03:55 PM
I didn't think there were any prods in the south? Weren't they all killed (those not fortunate to cross the Northern border that is) at the time of partition?

You are some tool.

QuoteYou are some tool.

Abuse is uncalled for. Tony's post was tongue in cheek, but inoffensive to anyone here.
Take a more chill-pill approach to life.

Quote from: armaghniac on October 25, 2013, 10:34:56 PM

QuoteYou are some tool.

Abuse is uncalled for. Tony's post was tongue in cheek, but inoffensive to anyone here.
Take a more chill-pill approach to life.

Normally i would agree with you, But Fearon is the exception.
He is a complete and utter tool.

Quote from: T Fearon on October 25, 2013, 07:03:55 PM
I didn't think there were any prods in the south? Weren't they all killed (those not fortunate to cross the Northern border that is) at the time of partition?

Haaahaaaahaaaaaaaahaahahahahhahahahaaaaaahaaaahaaaaa.

Good one for the Irish News.

Quote from: hardstation on October 26, 2013, 12:35:31 AM
There was a lecture on this at Feile an Phobail. I didn't go but the summary (in the Beehive bar) supports Tony's post.

Now be some craic listening to the conversations in that pub

Quote from: fingerbob on October 22, 2013, 08:52:32 PM

Quote from: snoopdog on October 22, 2013, 07:20:34 PM

Quote from: Fuzzman on October 22, 2013, 03:58:17 PM

Quote from: Lecale2 on October 22, 2013, 01:13:40 PM
::) The same Rosetta area where you see kids carrying hurls & wearing GAA tops every day?

Maybe it has changed since I lived there
There was no way I was gonna wear my Tyrone shirt down here despite the red hand symbol they all love.
http://goo.gl/maps/1UFc0

what ground would the floodlights in the distance be as a matter of interest

Ravenhill. You'll also notice that area is a stones throw from cherryvale which is where Bredagh play.

Hmmm

Kenny Archer decent sort he is into the bargain

The old Bredagh pitch used to back onto Ravenhill a few years ago before the Sisters sold it off.

Quote from: Hardy on October 22, 2013, 10:54:19 AM

Personally I think we should actively put an end to it. Sectarianism, which this is, however mild, has no place in the modern GAA. It's just a gratuitous insult to our members who are protestant, muslim, people of other religions or of no religion a all. It's saying to them "stand aside there for ten minutes while the real GAA does this important stuff you're not a part of."

+  ;)

At the North American GAA finals this year they had Mass at the field in one of the tents and it was publicized by the hosting committee saying "Come celebrate Mass with us."

I intend to give out about it at the convention.  I have no problem with freedom of religion, I'm against suppressing religion (it only encourages them) but as an organization the GAA should not be endorsing any one religious doctrine any more than it should be endorsing any one political party or political philosophy.  As soon as you bring up religion or politics in polite company and nail your colors to the mast, chances are you've just alienated the half of the people in the room who disagree with you. The GAA is open to all and should be seen as such.

Hey guys at least show an understanding of why the gaa became important in the first place. Not arguing with yer points but could take them more seriously if ye have your point researched

I don't see why mild expressions of religion in some form, should insult/alienate members of other religion. Tolerance and respect for other religions is a standard that a society should encompass. Yet I suppose the irony is, that the religions themselves (including atheists) breed varying degrees of self righteous, dogmatic intolerance. In Europe, generally the further north you go, the more dry and dogmatic the religion.
Sport should be a unifier, free from these squabbles that exist elsewhere in society, a sanctuary  of sorts, where people, who for whatever reason are averse to a display of a religious ritual, are not alienated from the sport. Sport should be saved for the pure rivalry, organically grown hatreds, superiority complexes etc etc, free from the taint of religious or atheist connection.

Personally, it doesn't annoy me when a player performs some religious based ritualistic hand movements before going onto the pitch. How far does this cleansing the GAA soul go?  Will that type of thing still be allowed after the purge?

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2013, 03:01:25 AM
At the North American GAA finals this year they had Mass at the field in one of the tents and it was publicized by the hosting committee saying "Come celebrate Mass with us."

I intend to give out about it at the convention.  I have no problem with freedom of religion, I'm against suppressing religion (it only encourages them) but as an organization the GAA should not be endorsing any one religious doctrine any more than it should be endorsing any one political party or political philosophy.  As soon as you bring up religion or politics in polite company and nail your colors to the mast, chances are you've just alienated the half of the people in the room who disagree with you. The GAA is open to all and should be seen as such.

Were any other religions refused the opportunity to have a service?

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 08:39:51 AM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2013, 03:01:25 AM
At the North American GAA finals this year they had Mass at the field in one of the tents and it was publicized by the hosting committee saying "Come celebrate Mass with us."

I intend to give out about it at the convention.  I have no problem with freedom of religion, I'm against suppressing religion (it only encourages them) but as an organization the GAA should not be endorsing any one religious doctrine any more than it should be endorsing any one political party or political philosophy.  As soon as you bring up religion or politics in polite company and nail your colors to the mast, chances are you've just alienated the half of the people in the room who disagree with you. The GAA is open to all and should be seen as such.

Were any other religions refused the opportunity to have a service?

Wrong question.

What other religions were offered the opportunity to have a service?

Quote from: Hardy on November 05, 2013, 11:53:31 AM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 08:39:51 AM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2013, 03:01:25 AM
At the North American GAA finals this year they had Mass at the field in one of the tents and it was publicized by the hosting committee saying "Come celebrate Mass with us."

I intend to give out about it at the convention.  I have no problem with freedom of religion, I'm against suppressing religion (it only encourages them) but as an organization the GAA should not be endorsing any one religious doctrine any more than it should be endorsing any one political party or political philosophy.  As soon as you bring up religion or politics in polite company and nail your colors to the mast, chances are you've just alienated the half of the people in the room who disagree with you. The GAA is open to all and should be seen as such.

Were any other religions refused the opportunity to have a service?

Wrong question.

What other religions were offered the opportunity to have a service?

Why is that the wrong question? Perhaps the Catholic church were the only one that asked to be involved?

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 11:55:16 AM

Quote from: Hardy on November 05, 2013, 11:53:31 AM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 08:39:51 AM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2013, 03:01:25 AM
At the North American GAA finals this year they had Mass at the field in one of the tents and it was publicized by the hosting committee saying "Come celebrate Mass with us."

I intend to give out about it at the convention.  I have no problem with freedom of religion, I'm against suppressing religion (it only encourages them) but as an organization the GAA should not be endorsing any one religious doctrine any more than it should be endorsing any one political party or political philosophy.  As soon as you bring up religion or politics in polite company and nail your colors to the mast, chances are you've just alienated the half of the people in the room who disagree with you. The GAA is open to all and should be seen as such.

Were any other religions refused the opportunity to have a service?

Wrong question.

What other religions were offered the opportunity to have a service?

Why is that the wrong question? Perhaps the Catholic church were the only one that asked to be involved?

It is important to play the game when you are a high profile organisation. You put the stick away before someone starts beating you with it.

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2013, 12:25:32 PM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 11:55:16 AM

Quote from: Hardy on November 05, 2013, 11:53:31 AM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 08:39:51 AM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2013, 03:01:25 AM
At the North American GAA finals this year they had Mass at the field in one of the tents and it was publicized by the hosting committee saying "Come celebrate Mass with us."

I intend to give out about it at the convention.  I have no problem with freedom of religion, I'm against suppressing religion (it only encourages them) but as an organization the GAA should not be endorsing any one religious doctrine any more than it should be endorsing any one political party or political philosophy.  As soon as you bring up religion or politics in polite company and nail your colors to the mast, chances are you've just alienated the half of the people in the room who disagree with you. The GAA is open to all and should be seen as such.

Were any other religions refused the opportunity to have a service?

Wrong question.

What other religions were offered the opportunity to have a service?

Why is that the wrong question? Perhaps the Catholic church were the only one that asked to be involved?

It is important to play the game when you are a high profile organisation. You put the stick away before someone starts beating you with it.

If you start that Muppet, you'd have everything packed up in this day and age. There's always someone to be offended. But if the catholic church made an effort to get involved with the GAA I don't have a problem with that, as long as any other religion that takes an interest gets the same treatment. I know in my local area, the GAA benefits through certain structures of the catholic church, if only even for the announcements in the notices part of mass for upcoming events/ fundraisers etc.
An optional mass at a GAA event isn't harming anyone. It's not being forced on anyone. In fact I'd have a bigger objection to preventing it just in case someone gets offended. That's a long road if they decide to go down it.

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 01:07:44 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2013, 12:25:32 PM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 11:55:16 AM

Quote from: Hardy on November 05, 2013, 11:53:31 AM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 08:39:51 AM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2013, 03:01:25 AM
At the North American GAA finals this year they had Mass at the field in one of the tents and it was publicized by the hosting committee saying "Come celebrate Mass with us."

I intend to give out about it at the convention.  I have no problem with freedom of religion, I'm against suppressing religion (it only encourages them) but as an organization the GAA should not be endorsing any one religious doctrine any more than it should be endorsing any one political party or political philosophy.  As soon as you bring up religion or politics in polite company and nail your colors to the mast, chances are you've just alienated the half of the people in the room who disagree with you. The GAA is open to all and should be seen as such.

Were any other religions refused the opportunity to have a service?

Wrong question.

What other religions were offered the opportunity to have a service?

Why is that the wrong question? Perhaps the Catholic church were the only one that asked to be involved?

It is important to play the game when you are a high profile organisation. You put the stick away before someone starts beating you with it.

If you start that Muppet, you'd have everything packed up in this day and age. There's always someone to be offended. But if the catholic church made an effort to get involved with the GAA I don't have a problem with that, as long as any other religion that takes an interest gets the same treatment. I know in my local area, the GAA benefits through certain structures of the catholic church, if only even for the announcements in the notices part of mass for upcoming events/ fundraisers etc.
An optional mass at a GAA event isn't harming anyone. It's not being forced on anyone. In fact I'd have a bigger objection to preventing it just in case someone gets offended. That's a long road if they decide to go down it.

If you start that, i.e. do whatever suits you, everyone will quickly be offended and you will wonder where it all went wrong.

The simple thing for a leader of an organisation, who is genuinely acting in the interests of that organisation, is to invite everyone. If subsequently the Catholic Church is the only one to accept, then it is hardly the Gaa's fault is it?

But what if the Catholic Church is the only one to show an interest and to pro actively WANT to get involved in the GAA. Are they to be punshied because no other religion wanted to get involved?  That makes no sense to me.

QuoteThe simple thing for a leader of an organisation, who is genuinely acting in the interests of that organisation, is to invite everyone. If subsequently the Catholic Church is the only one to accept, then it is hardly the Gaa's fault is it?

Everyone is welcome. A situation may arise, for instance as it may in Eamonn's home town, where the GAA has never had much of a response from one denomination as against another and may have fallen out of the habit of contacting one rather than the other, but if people want to come along then all are welcome. Likewise the Mass tent should also go to soccer games.

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 01:15:38 PM
But what if the Catholic Church is the only one to show an interest and to pro actively WANT to get involved in the GAA. Are they to be punshied because no other religion wanted to get involved?  That makes no sense to me.

You have been going on an assumption and are sticking to it. 'What if <enter your own religious group>'.... is not a great basis for general policy. Also assuming that 'no other religion wanted to get involved' is not a great way to run an outfit either.

Do you object to inviting say the 5 biggest religions, simply as a means of insulating the organisation from criticism (not to mention possible litigation in some jurisdictions)? Or is it only the Catholic Church that should be invited, end of story?

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2013, 01:25:06 PM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 01:15:38 PM
But what if the Catholic Church is the only one to show an interest and to pro actively WANT to get involved in the GAA. Are they to be punshied because no other religion wanted to get involved?  That makes no sense to me.

You have been going on an assumption and are sticking to it. 'What if <enter your own religious group>'.... is not a great basis for general policy. Also assuming that 'no other religion wanted to get involved' is not a great way to run an outfit either.

Do you object to inviting say the 5 biggest religions, simply as a means of insulating the organisation from criticism (not to mention possible litigation in some jurisdictions)? Or is it only the Catholic Church that should be invited, end of story?

It's no worse an assumption to make than assuming that the GAA invited only the catholic church and no one else which is what you seem to be doing. Truth is we don't know who asked who to attend.
I have no objection to the GAA inviting 55 religions to get involved. I would however have an objection to the GAA saying no to an organisation asking to become involved with a GAA event solely on the reason that it's "Competitors" didn't ask which is what you're implying.

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 01:32:45 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2013, 01:25:06 PM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 01:15:38 PM
But what if the Catholic Church is the only one to show an interest and to pro actively WANT to get involved in the GAA. Are they to be punshied because no other religion wanted to get involved?  That makes no sense to me.

You have been going on an assumption and are sticking to it. 'What if <enter your own religious group>'.... is not a great basis for general policy. Also assuming that 'no other religion wanted to get involved' is not a great way to run an outfit either.

Do you object to inviting say the 5 biggest religions, simply as a means of insulating the organisation from criticism (not to mention possible litigation in some jurisdictions)? Or is it only the Catholic Church that should be invited, end of story?

It's no worse an assumption to make than assuming that the GAA invited only the catholic church and no one else which is what you seem to be doing. Truth is we don't know who asked who to attend.
I have no objection to the GAA inviting 55 religions to get involved. I would however have an objection to the GAA saying no to an organisation asking to become involved with a GAA event solely on the reason that it's "Competitors" didn't ask which is what you're implying.

I never said this, implied it or telepathically transmitted it to you.

OK lets take my assumption that the Catholic church asked to be involved in this event. Should they have been turned away? If so why?

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 01:44:18 PM
OK lets take my assumption that the Catholic church asked to be involved in this event. Should they have been turned away? If so why?

I didn't say that either.

Go back to Hardy's question, which is where I joined in, and read from there.

If the Catholic Church asked to be at the event then steps should have been taken to ensure that others religions were afforded the same opportunity. If none accepted, then fire away with the Catholic ceremony.

Right I understand what you mean now. Apologies.

But I'm not sure I'd agree with the asking other religions bit. It's up to them to want to get involved with the GAA, not for the GAA to chase them. Otherwise where do you draw the line with what religions to invite? If you ask the top 5, your risking no 6&7 complaining.

*by the way you could substitute Catholic church here with any other religion. When I was mentioning Catholic church in previous posts it was in reference to this example. So if say a Protestant church came and asked to be involved, I would see no need to run to the catholic church to ask them in response either. It was up to then to ask in the first place.

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 01:55:38 PM
Right I understand what you mean now. Apologies.

But I'm not sure I'd agree with the asking other religions bit. It's up to them to want to get involved with the GAA, not for the GAA to chase them. Otherwise where do you draw the line with what religions to invite? If you ask the top 5, your risking no 6&7 complaining.

*by the way you could substitute Catholic church here with any other religion. When I was mentioning Catholic church in previous posts it was in reference to this example. So if say a Protestant church came and asked to be involved, I would see no need to run to the catholic church to ask them in response either. It was up to then to ask in the first place.

No apology necessary.

But regarding religion, I agree with Hardy. Play it safe, invite everybody, even if you know only one might show up. Ireland and its cross-border organisations need to be seen to be reasonably fair to the various religions.

I know where you're coming from, but I suppose my take would be welcome any organisation who wants to get involved with the GAA but chase no one. I actually think there's more risk for the GAA in chasing them. As I mentioned, where do you draw the line with regards to who you invite? Where as if the GAA can show that they were approached by the organisation and accepted, it's putting the onus back on the organisation to be proactive. The GAA just need to ensure they are fair and transparent about who they accept.   

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 01:44:18 PM
OK lets take my assumption that the Catholic church asked to be involved in this event. Should they have been turned away? If so why?

Yes but aside from other religiond there are many atheists, agnostics, anti-establishment Catholics and pro-secularisation Catholics in the GAA too, who may not  welcome their presance.

QuoteYes but aside from other religiond there are many atheists, agnostics, anti-establishment Catholics and pro-secularisation Catholics in the GAA too, who may not  welcome their presance.

Why should the GAA pander to predjudiced people?

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 05, 2013, 03:10:19 PM

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 05, 2013, 01:44:18 PM
OK lets take my assumption that the Catholic church asked to be involved in this event. Should they have been turned away? If so why?

Yes but aside from other religiond there are many atheists, agnostics, anti-establishment Catholics and pro-secularisation Catholics in the GAA too, who may not  welcome their presance.

There is and I don't expect them to be forced to attend an optional mass.

Some ridiculous responses to this.  The GAA shouldn't be sending out religion-specific invites to anyone. The GAA should be a neutral organization that all are welcome to be part of no matter where they stand on the political spectrum or religious spectrum. We should be trying to market our games to all comers on their sporting merits, not on the basis of "your religion/cult will have special treatment at the event."  The GAA in my home town of Lurgan would be twice as big if more protestants were involved. 

What the hell has sport got to do with religion anyway?  Imagine a Rugby international being advertised, and as part of the festivities they decide to include an Anglican religious service.  All the Anglicans would love that, wouldn't they?  But what are the non-Anglicans supposed to make of it?  Kinda narrows down your target market, wouldn't you say?

Keep it neutral.

Quote from: armaghniac on November 05, 2013, 03:15:07 PM

QuoteYes but aside from other religiond there are many atheists, agnostics, anti-establishment Catholics and pro-secularisation Catholics in the GAA too, who may not  welcome their presance.

Why should the GAA pander to predjudiced people?

Religion has no place in sport or the GAA. The only ones being pandered too are the god-squad.

People go to mass, the thing was probably on a Sunday. Why not facilitate them, it encourages people to come to the event?

Because facilitating one religious group by definition excludes others and people of no religious faith. People will go to the event for sporting reasons, not for religious services.

QuoteBecause facilitating one religious group by definition excludes others and people of no religious faith. People will go to the event for sporting reasons, not for religious services.

Get out of it. If there is a burger stand, does it "exclude" vegetarians? If a Jewish person came on here and said that they were "excluded" by a the existence of a hot dog stand you'd have nothing but scorn for their position. If people cannot tolerate an event in a tent that doesn't interest them personally then perhaps it is better they didn't come.
You are beginning to sound like a fleg protester.

In the recent past we heard criticism of Mass being celebrated at GAA Congress on the Saturday night. It is also custom to hold Mass in Croke Park on the Sunday morning of All Ireland Finals. Most practicing Catholics want to attend weekly Mass on a Saturday night or Sunday morning and I don't see why accommodating their wishes should cause offence to others. People will have travelled distances to these events (Congress, AI Finals etc.). 

Quote from: armaghniac on November 05, 2013, 11:11:52 PM
People go to mass, the thing was probably on a Sunday. Why not facilitate them, it encourages people to come to the event?

Let them go to mass on saturday night on their own time.

Are we comparing politics and religion to a burger stand now? That's nice .

I don't have a problem with people attending religious services. I do have a problem with the GAA laying on religious services, endorsing them in an official capacity, and listing them on the clar at congress as if they're part of the official order of business.

I suggest 5 additional tents to hold events alongside mass at the same time..

1. Guest speaker Richard Dawkins
2. Swinging, orgies and pornography
3. Foam Party and Bar
4. Limerick poetry competition
5. Father Ted convention

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 06, 2013, 12:00:25 AM
I don't have a problem with people attending religious services.

Yeah, right.

Quote from: armaghniac on November 06, 2013, 12:14:05 AM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 06, 2013, 12:00:25 AM
I don't have a problem with people attending religious services.

Yeah, right.

Perhaps you're right. I'll re-phrase that. 

I won't stand in the way of anyone attending religious services.

Better?

QuoteI won't stand in the way of anyone attending religious services.

I won't stand in the way of anyone attending religious services, but I will campaign on GAAboard to have them removed to an inconvenient location out of sight as I am offended by the sight of Catholics.

Quote from: armaghniac on November 06, 2013, 12:32:31 AM

QuoteI won't stand in the way of anyone attending religious services.

I won't stand in the way of anyone attending religious services, but I will campaign on GAAboard to have them removed to an inconvenient location out of sight as I am offended by the sight of Catholics.

Not quite.  How about:

I won't stand in the way of anyone attending religious services (because actively persecuting religion has the unfortunate side-effect of making people all the more determined to follow it) but I will campaign to have the GAA presented as a neutral environment in which all people of all religious faiths (no matter how delusional) and no religious faith can all feel equally welcome in this great sporting and cultural organization.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2013, 10:48:43 PM
Some ridiculous responses to this.  The GAA shouldn't be sending out religion-specific invites to anyone. The GAA should be a neutral organization that all are welcome to be part of no matter where they stand on the political spectrum or religious spectrum. We should be trying to market our games to all comers on their sporting merits, not on the basis of "your religion/cult will have special treatment at the event."  The GAA in my home town of Lurgan would be twice as big if more protestants were involved. 

What the hell has sport got to do with religion anyway?  Imagine a Rugby international being advertised, and as part of the festivities they decide to include an Anglican religious service.  All the Anglicans would love that, wouldn't they?  But what are the non-Anglicans supposed to make of it?  Kinda narrows down your target market, wouldn't you say?

Keep it neutral.

One word, Bollix!!

Just because you hate all aspects of religion doesn't mean everyone does. Should Sharon shannon be banned as well from the half time entertainment as well because some people don't like her music? And you don't really have an option with that one. It's kinda forced on you.
If the Rugby international had an optional mass that people could either attend or not then I don't think anyone would give a flying f%&K. You either attend if your interested or you don't if you're not. It's not part of the game, it's not being forced on anyone.

We probably shouldn't be surprised that a large proportion of our membership seems to be in favour of ignoring our rules and constitution, given our propensity for anarchy. We are well used to regular calls for various playing rules and other regulations to be ignored when they are inconvenient to a particular situation, or for the often-invoked reason of "common sense", or sometimes for no discernible reason at all.

So people seem to be missing the point here. The point is not about any equivalence between burger vans and religious services. The constitution of the GAA says nothing about burger vans. On the other hand, it does specifically state that "The Association is Anti-Sectarian" (Rule 1.12). Can somebody explain how the promotion of the services of a particular religion as part of an official GAA occasion accords with this rule? It doesn't allow the GAA to promote a Jewish Bar-Mitzvah or a Hindu baptism ceremony. And it doesn't allow us to promote a Catholic mass. Simple. No amount of "Ah but sure, we've always done it" or "sure it's only for convenience" changes the fact that it's in direct contravention of the constitution.

If you're happy with that, fine and we can go on ignoring it and all the other rules we ignore. But at least admit that's what we're doing.  If you're not happy with it and you want official masses at Croke Park and at Congress, you might consider proposing a motion to have this anti-sectarian provision removed from the constitution. That's how it's supposed to work. But if you want us to be non-sectarian, please don't argue for special official consderation for one religion or try to argue that official masses are not special consideration..

The association is also non-party political by rule (Rule 1.11). If Fianna Fáil got permission to erect a Galway Races type tent in the forecourt of the Cusack Stand on All-Ireland Final day, would those who support oifficial masses regard this as being in compliance with the non-party political rule?

Hardy the GAA would only be ignoring the rules if they prevented a Jewish Bar-mitzvah or a hindu service but allowed a Catholic service. If that was the case then yes they have broken the rules. But if the catholic service was the only one that requested involvement then, I don't see what they have broken. They can't force other religions to get involved, but I don't see why this should lead to a restriction on one that does.

Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 06, 2013, 11:17:04 AM
Hardy the GAA would only be ignoring the rules if they prevented a Jewish Bar-mitzvah or a hindu service but allowed a Catholic service. If that was the case then yes they have broken the rules. But if the catholic service was the only one that requested involvement then, I don't see what they have broken. They can't force other religions to get involved, but I don't see why this should lead to a restriction on one that does.

I think that's a very narrow interpretation of the Anti-Sectarian rule and I can't conceive of an interpretation of "anti-sectarian" that allows official promotion of religious services. I don't know the circumstances of the mass tent at the North American finals, as to whether the church requested it or the GAA organised it. If the former, your point may be supportable, though I would still argue that it is in conflict with the spirit, at least, of the rule. Again, I would apply the FF analogy by way of arguing this.

Whatever about that, though, the official mass at Congress is clearly in breach of the rule.

I'd agree that if the GAA organised the tent, then that's clear breach of the rules. To search out one religion over others is out of line, and I also don't know the circumstances regarding who invited who. But i'd disagree on the narrow interpretation bit. I think the GAA would only be in the sectarian area if they either organised the event themselves, which is possible considering the GAA, Or they accepted an offer from the Catholic Church but refused other relilions. If it's a case of the Catholic church were the only religion to make contact then I don't see that as sectarian.

We're in "angels on the head of a pin" territory, maybe but if FF were the only party to ask for a tent in Croke Park, would it be OK to accommodate them under Rule 1.11?

Yes (As much as I hate to say it). The onus would be on the other parties to request the same.
But as long as it's optional, i.e none FF supporters can walk past without interaction or being harassed then I don't see the problem - As long as they don't allow one party an opportunity but deny another. Then they are in the area of party political.

Masses celebrated in Croke Park on AI Final days are not "official" events that are "promoted" by the GAA.
How can anybody credibly claim that the GAA are acting in a bigoted sectarian manner by allowing use of facilities for Mass ?

In my opinion it is nonsense to claim that allowing celebration of Mass on GAA premises contravenes the GAA constitution.

Well it does.  So there.

I agree with hardy I think the gaa down south need to put in the hard work being done I the north to make all sectors feel welcome. That is the real picture on the ground up here. If there were 4 different religious festivals or in keeping with yes a big gay pride jamboree in Croke park I couldn't give a flying fcuk, youse southern guys need to sort this out as hardy has said. I'm following hardy on this one. He is the truth a shining light and a prophet in our midst.  Religion is the least of your worries until you sort out the old gay marriage conundrum, the whole sectarian homobhobic lot of yes.

rrhf - you're wasted here - you remind me of Joyce.......

[i]....and then I asked him with my eyes to ask again yes and then he asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around him yes and drew him down to me so he could feel my breasts all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes.[/i]

Quote from: The Boy Wonder on November 06, 2013, 08:53:22 PM
rrhf - you're wasted here - you remind me of Joyce.......

[i]....and then I asked him with my eyes to ask again yes and then he asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around him yes and drew him down to me so he could feel my breasts all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes.[/i]

Ah Pádraic,

but was it to Donellan or Seán Og he was talking?

Whether we like it or not the GAA has at it's heart the catholic parish system and in many of those clubs their religion goes hand in hand with the club. It is what made the association strong, it united all strands of society in a way Protestants in Ireland could only look at with envy. I don't believe we should suddenly ditch this part of our heritage. That is not to say that we should force religion down anyone's throat. It is a part of Irishness that is being left behind, a process obviously accelerated by the scanals in the Irish church. However the way forward for the GAA is to create a situation where clubs who no longer have that affinity with the parish or who have members from other religions and none can have an ecumenical service or none as they see fit. I've read a lot of the posts on here and the common thread on this issue seems to be a blind hatred on the part of some of the catholic church, either because of the scandals or because they no longer see religion as being important to them. Which is fine and in a democracy this is their right. But those who still hold religion dear and who see beyond the Bishops to the good honest priests who did their best for the parish it's people and their club also have a right to see this refected in some way and it does not have to be shoved down the throats of the dissenters.

Quote from: Applesisapples on November 07, 2013, 10:32:45 AM
Whether we like it or not the GAA has at it's heart the catholic parish system and in many of those clubs their religion goes hand in hand with the club. It is what made the association strong, it united all strands of society in a way Protestants in Ireland could only look at with envy. I don't believe we should suddenly ditch this part of our heritage. That is not to say that we should force religion down anyone's throat. It is a part of Irishness that is being left behind, a process obviously accelerated by the scanals in the Irish church. However the way forward for the GAA is to create a situation where clubs who no longer have that affinity with the parish or who have members from other religions and none can have an ecumenical service or none as they see fit. I've read a lot of the posts on here and the common thread on this issue seems to be a blind hatred on the part of some of the catholic church, either because of the scandals or because they no longer see religion as being important to them. Which is fine and in a democracy this is their right. But those who still hold religion dear and who see beyond the Bishops to the good honest priests who did their best for the parish it's people and their club also have a right to see this refected in some way and it does not have to be shoved down the throats of the dissenters.

If that's what you want, put a motion on the agenda of your club's AGM to have Rule 1.12 rescinded and/or to have special consideration for the Catholic church included in the constitution and see how you get on in the democratic process.

And if you succeed, I promise I won't come back here to complain that you shoved anything down my throat.

Quote from: Hardy on November 07, 2013, 10:55:15 AM
If that's what you want, put a motion on the agenda of your club's AGM to have Rule 1.12 rescinded and/or to have special consideration for the Catholic church included in the constitution and see how you get on in the democratic process.

And if you succeed, I promise I won't come back here to complain that you shoved anything down my throat.

I think you've got this the wrong way round. If you think there is rule-breaking going on, you report it to the authorities. You don't ask those you think are breaking the rules to apply to the authorities to have the rules changed to accommodate their behaviour.

Quote from: deiseach on November 07, 2013, 11:01:32 AM

Quote from: Hardy on November 07, 2013, 10:55:15 AM
If that's what you want, put a motion on the agenda of your club's AGM to have Rule 1.12 rescinded and/or to have special consideration for the Catholic church included in the constitution and see how you get on in the democratic process.

And if you succeed, I promise I won't come back here to complain that you shoved anything down my throat.

I think you've got this the wrong way round. If you think there is rule-breaking going on, you report it to the authorities. You don't ask those you think are breaking the rules to apply to the authorities to have the rules changed to accommodate their behaviour.

I thought I was reminding Applesisapples that if he wanted the rules changed there's a procedure that applies. I'm with the status quo on this one, as far as the rules go. No special consideration for any church or religion. Breach of the rules is a different matter. If I was to take responsibility for reporting every breach of rules to the authorities I'd be a very busy man.

Quote from: Hardy on November 07, 2013, 11:14:54 AM
I thought I was reminding Applesisapples that if he wanted the rules changed there's a procedure that applies. I'm with the status quo on this one, as far as the rules go. No special consideration for any church or religion. Breach of the rules is a different matter. If I was to take responsibility for reporting every breach of rules to the authorities I'd be a very busy man.

Well, fine. Nothing will change then and seeing as that is what you want, happy days.

QuoteNo special consideration for any church or religion.

Everyone agrees with this. Where the disagreement comes is whether this is achieved by allowing equal access for everyone or banning everyone.

Quote from: armaghniac on November 07, 2013, 11:27:12 AM

QuoteNo special consideration for any church or religion.

Everyone agrees with this. Where the disagreement comes is whether this is achieved by allowing equal access for everyone or banning everyone.

I don't think it's a question either of allowing or banning. I think we observe the requirements of the rule if we simply don't officially promote any religion or discriminate against any religion. I think it works fine and is pretty well observed - completely so as regards the discrimination and for the most part as regards the promotion. It's my opinion that a religious service as an official agenda item on a GAA occasion is promotion of a particular religion and therefore a breach of the rule. There's no more to it than that, for me.

Quote from: Applesisapples on November 07, 2013, 10:32:45 AM
Whether we like it or not the GAA has at it's heart the catholic parish system and in many of those clubs their religion goes hand in hand with the club. It is what made the association strong, it united all strands of society in a way Protestants in Ireland could only look at with envy. I don't believe we should suddenly ditch this part of our heritage. That is not to say that we should force religion down anyone's throat. It is a part of Irishness that is being left behind, a process obviously accelerated by the scanals in the Irish church. However the way forward for the GAA is to create a situation where clubs who no longer have that affinity with the parish or who have members from other religions and none can have an ecumenical service or none as they see fit. I've read a lot of the posts on here and the common thread on this issue seems to be a blind hatred on the part of some of the catholic church, either because of the scandals or because they no longer see religion as being important to them. Which is fine and in a democracy this is their right. But those who still hold religion dear and who see beyond the Bishops to the good honest priests who did their best for the parish it's people and their club also have a right to see this refected in some way and it does not have to be shoved down the throats of the dissenters.

Were Protestants in Ireland not considered part of any strand of society?

I stopped reading after that line.

QuoteWere Protestants in Ireland not considered part of any strand of society?

Of course they were, Sam Maguire wasn't made unwelcome in the GAA because he was a Protestant.

The sad thing, though, is that a large proportion of Irish Protestants have themselves opted out of society and preferred to work against it. As you should know a horse cannot be made drink.

Quote from: armaghniac on November 07, 2013, 12:18:32 PM

QuoteWere Protestants in Ireland not considered part of any strand of society?

Of course they were, Sam Maguire wasn't made unwelcome in the GAA because he was a Protestant.

The sad thing, though, is that a large proportion of Irish Protestants have themselves opted out of society and preferred to work against it. As you should know a horse cannot be made drink.

Especially not if they think the water is toxic ;)

Quote from: Hardy on November 07, 2013, 10:55:15 AM

Quote from: Applesisapples on November 07, 2013, 10:32:45 AM
Whether we like it or not the GAA has at it's heart the catholic parish system and in many of those clubs their religion goes hand in hand with the club. It is what made the association strong, it united all strands of society in a way Protestants in Ireland could only look at with envy. I don't believe we should suddenly ditch this part of our heritage. That is not to say that we should force religion down anyone's throat. It is a part of Irishness that is being left behind, a process obviously accelerated by the scanals in the Irish church. However the way forward for the GAA is to create a situation where clubs who no longer have that affinity with the parish or who have members from other religions and none can have an ecumenical service or none as they see fit. I've read a lot of the posts on here and the common thread on this issue seems to be a blind hatred on the part of some of the catholic church, either because of the scandals or because they no longer see religion as being important to them. Which is fine and in a democracy this is their right. But those who still hold religion dear and who see beyond the Bishops to the good honest priests who did their best for the parish it's people and their club also have a right to see this refected in some way and it does not have to be shoved down the throats of the dissenters.

If that's what you want, put a motion on the agenda of your club's AGM to have Rule 1.12 rescinded and/or to have special consideration for the Catholic church included in the constitution and see how you get on in the democratic process.

And if you succeed, I promise I won't come back here to complain that you shoved anything down my throat.

Why would I want to do that? It doesn't need to be a rule to reflect the ethos of the club. In fact my own club has a very non catholic and no religious ethos and thats the way I like it. I'm just saying that clubs have the right to reflect their beliefs history and culture and no one should feel threatened. I am in no way suggesting that the GAA gives the church any official status, but clubs and parishes may want to and that is their right.

Quote from: Champion The Wonder Horse on November 07, 2013, 12:03:47 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on November 07, 2013, 10:32:45 AM
Whether we like it or not the GAA has at it's heart the catholic parish system and in many of those clubs their religion goes hand in hand with the club. It is what made the association strong, it united all strands of society in a way Protestants in Ireland could only look at with envy. I don't believe we should suddenly ditch this part of our heritage. That is not to say that we should force religion down anyone's throat. It is a part of Irishness that is being left behind, a process obviously accelerated by the scanals in the Irish church. However the way forward for the GAA is to create a situation where clubs who no longer have that affinity with the parish or who have members from other religions and none can have an ecumenical service or none as they see fit. I've read a lot of the posts on here and the common thread on this issue seems to be a blind hatred on the part of some of the catholic church, either because of the scandals or because they no longer see religion as being important to them. Which is fine and in a democracy this is their right. But those who still hold religion dear and who see beyond the Bishops to the good honest priests who did their best for the parish it's people and their club also have a right to see this refected in some way and it does not have to be shoved down the throats of the dissenters.

Were Protestants in Ireland not considered part of any strand of society?

I stopped reading after that line.

sorry I meant Catholic society.

GAA Anti-Sectarian and Anti-Racist Policy
At Congress in 2009, rule 1.12 of the Official Guide was amended to state the following:

GAA Official Guide, Rule 1.12: The Association is Anti-Sectarian and Anti-Racist. Any conduct by deed, word or gesture of a sectarian or racist nature against any player, official, spectator or anyone else, in the course of activities organised by the Association, shall be deemed to have discredited the Association.
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I don't see how the GAA can be accused of breaching Rule 1.12 by allowing Mass be celebrated at Croke Park.
The GAA allows their facilities to be used for concerts, parties, convention, seminars etc. As with Mass on AI Finals day these are not official GAA events organised by the GAA. Was the party in Croker for Bertie Ahern in breach of this rule ?

Like another poster said - if anyone genuinely thinks that Rule 1.12 is being broken and that the GAA is thus behaving in a bigoted sectarian manner they should make a complaint to the GAA  (I couldn't see them getting too far). If they choose not to do so then I'd suspect that they are just making this accusation for devilment here.

Quote from: Applesisapples on November 07, 2013, 10:32:45 AM
Whether we like it or not the GAA has at it's heart the catholic parish system and in many of those clubs their religion goes hand in hand with the club. It is what made the association strong, it united all strands of society in a way Protestants in Ireland could only look at with envy. I don't believe we should suddenly ditch this part of our heritage. That is not to say that we should force religion down anyone's throat. It is a part of Irishness that is being left behind, a process obviously accelerated by the scanals in the Irish church. However the way forward for the GAA is to create a situation where clubs who no longer have that affinity with the parish or who have members from other religions and none can have an ecumenical service or none as they see fit. I've read a lot of the posts on here and the common thread on this issue seems to be a blind hatred on the part of some of the catholic church, either because of the scandals or because they no longer see religion as being important to them. Which is fine and in a democracy this is their right. But those who still hold religion dear and who see beyond the Bishops to the good honest priests who did their best for the parish it's people and their club also have a right to see this refected in some way and it does not have to be shoved down the throats of the dissenters.

Gawd!  Where do I start?

The catholic church initially opposed the GAA because they thought it threatened mass attendances. Croke was the exception to that rule and he had a hand in changing the church's mind, which is why he's so revered.

The idea that you can't be a proper Irishman unless you're a practicing catholic is outdated and offensive.  There's over a million protestants in Ireland, I'm quite sure that they don't see catholicism as part of their Irish identity.

I say again that if you narrow an organization's appeal to an increasingly narrow segment of society, you shouldn't be surprised if the organization doesn't grow to its full potential.  If you disconnect the organization from narrow affiliations with churches and politics then it'll have much broader appeal and stronger for it.

Do I hate the catholic church? Of course.  But that's not the main reason I'm making this point.  I'm making this point because I want the GAA to be strong, not shackled to an outdated deference to an outdated overgrown cult.

Quote from: armaghniac on November 07, 2013, 12:18:32 PM

Of course they were, Sam Maguire wasn't made unwelcome in the GAA because he was a Protestant.

The sad thing, though, is that a large proportion of Irish Protestants have themselves opted out of society and preferred to work against it. As you should know a horse cannot be made drink.

Er, what?

Quote from: Applesisapples on November 07, 2013, 10:32:45 AM
Whether we like it or not the GAA has at it's heart the catholic parish system and in many of those clubs their religion goes hand in hand with the club. It is what made the association strong, it united all strands of society in a way Protestants in Ireland could only look at with envy. I don't believe we should suddenly ditch this part of our heritage. That is not to say that we should force religion down anyone's throat. It is a part of Irishness that is being left behind, a process obviously accelerated by the scanals in the Irish church. However the way forward for the GAA is to create a situation where clubs who no longer have that affinity with the parish or who have members from other religions and none can have an ecumenical service or none as they see fit. I've read a lot of the posts on here and the common thread on this issue seems to be a blind hatred on the part of some of the catholic church, either because of the scandals or because they no longer see religion as being important to them. Which is fine and in a democracy this is their right. But those who still hold religion dear and who see beyond the Bishops to the good honest priests who did their best for the parish it's people and their club also have a right to see this refected in some way and it does not have to be shoved down the throats of the dissenters.

You could also argue that the Gaa also has built itself around the county system in Ireland, which was introduced by the Normans to mimic the English county system. I don't see either the Norman or the English county system as part of my heritage but I have no wish to ditch the county system in the Gaa.

Likewise, basing Gaa clubs on the Catholic Parish system is an interesting historical footnote, but that is about it.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 07, 2013, 06:43:59 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on November 07, 2013, 12:18:32 PM

Of course they were, Sam Maguire wasn't made unwelcome in the GAA because he was a Protestant.

The sad thing, though, is that a large proportion of Irish Protestants have themselves opted out of society and preferred to work against it. As you should know a horse cannot be made drink.

Er, what?

this
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/65228000/jpg/_65228382_nosurrender.jpg)

QuoteGAA Anti-Sectarian and Anti-Racist Policy
At Congress in 2009, rule 1.12 of the Official Guide was amended to state the following:

GAA Official Guide, Rule 1.12: The Association is Anti-Sectarian and Anti-Racist. Any conduct by deed, word or gesture of a sectarian or racist nature against any player, official, spectator or anyone else, in the course of activities organised by the Association, shall be deemed to have discredited the Association.
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The conduct of religon is not in itself sectarian. If the GAA ask the Salvation Army to play at half time in Croke Park then this is not a sectarian act.

QuoteLikewise, basing Gaa clubs on the Catholic Parish system is an interesting historical footnote, but that is about it.

This provided a complete coverage of the country and as the church had used well defined local areas for its parishes these were places people identified with and so were suited to the GAA. This is no diffferent to Burger King in America using the locations of McDonalds as convenient place for fast food places, on the basis that McDonalds had probably chosen a good site.

As noted above they used counties for a similar reason.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 07, 2013, 06:42:33 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on November 07, 2013, 10:32:45 AM
Whether we like it or not the GAA has at it's heart the catholic parish system and in many of those clubs their religion goes hand in hand with the club. It is what made the association strong, it united all strands of society in a way Protestants in Ireland could only look at with envy. I don't believe we should suddenly ditch this part of our heritage. That is not to say that we should force religion down anyone's throat. It is a part of Irishness that is being left behind, a process obviously accelerated by the scanals in the Irish church. However the way forward for the GAA is to create a situation where clubs who no longer have that affinity with the parish or who have members from other religions and none can have an ecumenical service or none as they see fit. I've read a lot of the posts on here and the common thread on this issue seems to be a blind hatred on the part of some of the catholic church, either because of the scandals or because they no longer see religion as being important to them. Which is fine and in a democracy this is their right. But those who still hold religion dear and who see beyond the Bishops to the good honest priests who did their best for the parish it's people and their club also have a right to see this refected in some way and it does not have to be shoved down the throats of the dissenters.

Gawd!  Where do I start?

The catholic church initially opposed the GAA because they thought it threatened mass attendances. Croke was the exception to that rule and he had a hand in changing the church's mind, which is why he's so revered.

The idea that you can't be a proper Irishman unless you're a practicing catholic is outdated and offensive.  There's over a million protestants in Ireland, I'm quite sure that they don't see catholicism as part of their Irish identity.

I say again that if you narrow an organization's appeal to an increasingly narrow segment of society, you shouldn't be surprised if the organization doesn't grow to its full potential.  If you disconnect the organization from narrow affiliations with churches and politics then it'll have much broader appeal and stronger for it.

Do I hate the catholic church? Of course.  But that's not the main reason I'm making this point.  I'm making this point because I want the GAA to be strong, not shackled to an outdated deference to an outdated overgrown cult.

Please read my post, no where have I said that being catholic is a prerequisite to being Irish. But to many Irish people (not me I should add) it is an important part of their make up. You can not expect clubs to totally ditch their ethos and history, this in no way shackles all clubs or the GAA.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 07, 2013, 06:42:33 PM
The idea that you can't be a proper Irishman unless you're a practicing catholic is outdated and offensive. 
Who said that?


I say again that if you narrow an organization's appeal to an increasingly narrow segment of society,  -
The GAA have never appealed to a "narrow segment of society". If it had it would have died years ago.

an outdated overgrown cult.
You're true colours are showing now as you insult 70% of the people of Ireland.