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Hardy is correct to air this issue, it'll be upon us as a fait accompli before we know it, having sleepwalked the whole way in.

I don't trust the GPA's motives, and it would appear that that's an almost universal consensus – the suspicions are that it really is after pay-for-play, and for the elite few only.  As AZOffaly said, whether the proposed payments are actual reimbursements for monies disbursed in the pursuit of county duties (with receipts to prove it), or an allowance/grant to cover all potential expenses (non-receipted), is a critical distinction; if it's the former then that's fine, but the latter is the first step to professionalism for it will already be de facto professionalism.

And if it is de facto professionalism, we are all faced with a choice: are we prepared to cut our best county players loose in order to protect the amateur ethos of the organisation? Or would we be prepared to let pay-for-play/play-for-work permeate the whole organisation, as it surely would? 

Personally, I would let our best county players go in order to protect the very valuable amateur ethos of the GAA.  And were this to happen across the whole country, what we could well end up with would be a 'GPA All-Ireland' (just as there is a GPA Team of the Year), which would comprise only a subset of the current All-Ireland counties – only those counties with a critical mass of players good enough would be eligible.   The players in this elite would still play with their clubs, but it would be play-for-nothing, gratis, and that's why it would seem to work, at least initially.

But it should be resisted at all costs – the GAA can survive without this elite, but it will not survive professionalism, IMHO.

I think its important this message is loud and clearly sent out. so im in.

Also totally with you Fear ón Srath Bán

 I'd be with you re a GPA All-Ireland.

It would be the first virtual GAA game - no venue, no volunteer back-up, no one attending, but probably huge media interest given that in the Irish sports media the scale of their interest in somethnig seems to be in inverse proportion to the interest of spectators to the same thing.

Anyway, like it or not, it's on its way after Nicky Brennan's (and it has to be down to him) disgraceful sell-out re the grants issue.

What's that the Wexford men always said about Kilkenny men pissing on the powder?

Ah cop on for fooks sake.

Is the GAA paying the players? NO

Will the GAA start paying the players anytime soon? NO

If there was a vote at Congress about the GAA paying players, what would the yes vote be? 5%? Probably less!

If pretty much everyone is against the GAA paying players for playing, how the hell is it going to come in?

The GPA have every right to exist, and they have every right to ask for whatever they want for intercounty players, including pay-for-play, but they havent every right to get everything they ask for. If the grants come in it will be a huge victory and enormous credit will be due to the GPA for bringing in some reward for players without impinging on the GAA amateur ethos.

Quote from: Hound on April 06, 2007, 07:42:36 AM
Ah cop on for fooks sake.

Is the GAA paying the players? NO

Will the GAA start paying the players anytime soon? NO

If there was a vote at Congress about the GAA paying players, what would the yes vote be? 5%? Probably less!

If pretty much everyone is against the GAA paying players for playing, how the hell is it going to come in?

The GPA have every right to exist, and they have every right to ask for whatever they want for intercounty players, including pay-for-play, but they havent every right to get everything they ask for. If the grants come in it will be a huge victory and enormous credit will be due to the GPA for bringing in some reward for players without impinging on the GAA amateur ethos.

Yeah what he said

Quote from: Hound on April 06, 2007, 07:42:36 AM
Ah cop on for fooks sake.

Is the GAA paying the players? NO

Wht sort of hypocritical shite is that ?  Like,  go to England for an abortion if you want, we dont allow it here.
The GAA, allegedly,  is supporting the payment of inter county players, without it ever being discussed. And getting the tax payer to do it for them, what sort of cute hoorism is that.
If the govt have a few million spare to splash out on sport I would rather they distributed it to national scholls around the country. And if my interests lay in the arts for example, I would wholly agrieved at my taxes funding guys playing an amateur  game they love.

On the question posed in the poll, it won't be an issue. If I was being paid to play intercounty football or hurling do you really think I would be putting my career at risk by playing with a bunch of amateurs as well. Fug off.

FFS now Brennan has opened up a real can of  bitches worms. now the ladee footballers want their cut of the grants.

No payments to anyone please. guess which way i voted :P

Ladies footballers want paid? Your having a laugh! If the GPA want paid let the feckers feck off and start their own association for organising games.

The ladies want, and does anyone here honestly believe that if they challenge this is a European court they won't get it?

QuoteIs the GAA paying the players? NO

Will the GAA start paying the players anytime soon? NO

If there was a vote at Congress about the GAA paying players, what would the yes vote be? 5%? Probably less!

If pretty much everyone is against the GAA paying players for playing, how the hell is it going to come in?

Hound, here's how it's going to come in. Sometime down the road the Government will need to cut corners - something we haven't had to do in over a decade. When €3bn or so needs to be cut from the budget, subsidising the GAA to pay players will look like a very easy target. This may be as many as ten years away, it may be as few as three. I priced up odds on a housing crash there recently, and some very prominent figures were very quick to back all the worst scenarios. Some unpleasant material is destined for the fan very quickly.

So what happens when the Government pulls out of the deal? Do you honestly believe the GPA will just say "That was grand while it lasted, back to normal then" or will the make demands that the GAA make up the shortfall? Professionalism is like preganancy, there is no being "a little bit pregnant". Players will demand, players will strike, and supported by an Indo led media, who is not interested in learning the names of the second string players of counties, they'll just want Sean Cavanagh, Henry Shefflin and Sean Óg back, they'll win. Of course that will lead to extra big games to finance it by way of Setanta pay per view events, which of course will be closely followed by the realisation that the Kerrys Dublins and Corks of this world are revenue generating, while counties like Carlow, Fermanagh and Sligo aren't.

In the meantime some Sean Mulryan/JP McManus like character decides he'd like to buy an All Ireland for his county. Roscommon bring in Declan Browne, Barry Owens and Mattie Forde, of course when this is challenged the lads go to the courts. The lads claim restraint of trade, which the GAA has no comeback against - all rules must be subject to overall EU law. They claim that their own county may cease to exist in the future, so in order to protect their own futures they had to move.


Hound, if you can tell me why any of the above can't happen, I'd love to hear it, because I'm trying to work out how we can advocate these grants and still have 64 intercounty hurling teams in twenty years, but I just don't see it. Not alone do I not think it likely, I don't think it possible. Just because you'll always have your intercounty team doesn't mean that others are dispensable. 

Lone Shark, you're spot on.

Brilliantly put.

The tragedy is we're now on that road thanks to what Nickey Brennan has overseen this week.

Leading GAA players are now to get money for being leading GAA players no matter what way Brennan and co try to dress it up.

Well at least the GAA was good while it lasted.

RIP.

So how come there is so much objection to county players getting govt grants but there is near silence on Club managers/county managers getting paid, all the support staff being paid, club players and county players being paid on the quiet etc......
One could argue that they are being paid in kind anyway by getting free equipment, free meals, holidays, training camps, medical treatment etc.....

I don't think it's true that there has been silence on this board regarding payments to managers. In fact it is that very practice whis is the ultimate source of this cancer.

Nobody likes all that stuff - you may or may not have noticed that around two months ago I put up a lengthy enough post saying how all these payments to managers etc. need to be stopped for this very reason. However the difference is that once the GAA drew a line in the sand at pay for play, we always had something to defend, a front, as it were. We could carry on the fight against under the table payments, but as long as they were under the table and not sanctioned by the GAA at the highest level then they didn't create a legal issue for us.

Equally nobody here wants the players to be left out of pocket, and all the things you mention are ways to make that happen - what we don't want is for the GAA to become an employer, even if they are not the ones signing the paycheque. That brings us into a whole new realm, one where we are bound first by employment and European law, and only by GAA rules if they don't go against that.

Look, if getting rid of paid managers is what it takes, then certainly I would love that to happen, as would most, I would say. However the biggest drawback in the GAA is that counties and clubs are not good at seeing the bigger picture. It appears we all want players to be punished for violent play, until it's our own player. We all think paid managers are a bad idea until that manager is the one who makes the breakthrough for our county. Until all counties refuse to look for that illicit advantage, we have a tough fight on our hands.

Quote from: Lone SharkThe ladies want, and does anyone here honestly believe that if they challenge this is a European court they won't get it?

And a host of other sports - hockey, basketball, AIL rugby for a start - are going to be right there after them.

And given the hoops that existing sports grant recipients have to go through to get money in terms of reaching a required level of performance, they're not going to be happy at all with money being doled out to the likes of the Cavan hurlers.

QuoteSometime down the road the Government will need to cut corners - something we haven't had to do in over a decade. When €3bn or so needs to be cut from the budget, subsidising the GAA to pay players will look like a very easy target. This may be as many as ten years away, it may be as few as three. I priced up odds on a housing crash there recently, and some very prominent figures were very quick to back all the worst scenarios. Some unpleasant material is destined for the fan very quickly.

I wouldn't even expect it to be as long as three years away. We could be looking at months. Once the election is out of the way, all bets are off.

I dont think the rubuicon will be crossed untill players have a choice be tween working and playing for a living up till then everything else is a bonus. Players are already makeing money from being top players through softjobs and the pittence the GPA bring in from marketing but id you divide €5M by 32 counties and leave a mere 30 players on each hurling and football panel it works out at about €2,500 a year each that a perk not professionalism

Bumping this up a last time folks, just in case anybody missed it last week.

Don't agree that the Rubicon would only be crossed when it's a question of either working or playing for a living; I think it will be crossed when it's pay-for-play, effectively or otherwise, where players might practically, potentially, or theoretically withhold their services until payment's rendered... not a pleasant vista, if not quite appalling.

To be honest it is hard to comment unless the specifics are on the table. The debate will not kick off until the government make a comment. I do think it is shoddy that the GPA and the GAA did not disclose what the specifics were, i mean what have they got to hide, unless the government wanted them to keep quiet about it.

Question not all that balanced, Matty Forde, Declan Browne, John Doyle in small counties or look how Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone can survive without about 5 or 6 stars, but thats a tangent, I get what your saying. I voted yes, I really do beleive the amature status should be preserved to a degree, but what I saw less than €3,500 for All-Ireland winners is hardly paying its more like expenses. But anything more than this, i.e. Professionalism I would be fully against.

Reassuring piece in the Irish Times today, from Kieran Mc Geeney.

McGeeney makes a strong case

Ian O'Riordan

With increasing rumour the Government is about to reject the proposed €5 million for player welfare grants there was some noticeably vocal support yesterday from Armagh footballer Kieran McGeeney. He criticised those finding fault in the proposals and urged the Government to keep up their half of the bargain, which McGeeney argued would ultimately help preserve the GAA's amateur status.

The Government is still considering the proposal, agreed between the GAA and Gaelic Players Association (GPA) a week ago, and a decision is expected within days. In the meantime the proposals haven't escaped criticism, even from within the GAA, although McGeeney was adamant the grants should be allowed to work.

"It's funny how some people look at this and try to find everything that's wrong with it," he said. "Of course as players we try to find what's right with it. But grants have been available to Gaelic games for over 15 years, and big grants, for grounds or whatever.

"This is nothing more than say a university grant. That's the level we're on about. It's not about the players going out to buy a new Porsche. It's something that would barely take a player on holiday at the end of the year . . . But there's also the generic causes, things worked out between the GAA and the GPA, like insurance, so if they do miss work they're still paid, or even issues like babysitters, all different things where money like that can be a big help".

As one of the driving members of the GPA, McGeeney played an active role in designing the grant proposal, which would see all intercounty players entitled to a maximum of €90 a week during the season, on an expenses-incurred basis.

"Gaelic football is unique," he added, "and we want to keep it unique. Part of that argument is to keep it amateur, and I agree with that. And this is a step in that direction, to make sure there's a balance between looking after the players, and keeping the amateur ethos. So in my opinion this is a great answer towards doing that.

"I know the GAA is a popular sport. A lot of people want to play, and at a high level, and anything that can help them do that should be considered. We should make sure the GAA continues to grow and grow, and sitting with the GAA on this has encouraged me they do really care about the players, they want to move on, and do their best for them.

"So I would hope the Government come through. They've sort of indicated they will. But you wait for it to come along and then people throw out a few more obstacles in its path . . . I just hope all the work that's been done over the past number of years now hasn't gone to waste, and that the Government will keep their half of the bargain."

McGeeney is well known for his professional approach to training, and that, he added, should be promoted among all intercounty players: "Any Gaelic footballer will tell you they want to play at a professional level, without being professional. Like why can't Eoin Brosnan or Bryan Cullen not become elite athletes, just because they're working? They should still have every chance available to them, and won't turn around at 25 or 26 and decide they just can't compete at that level anymore, because there just aren't enough things there to help me do that.

"One of the biggest differences between a true professional is the rest they get, not the money . . . I never want to give the impression playing at the highest level is some kind of weight around my shoulders, because it is what I want, what I enjoy. But that still doesn't mean I don't want to compete at as high a level as I possibly can, and get the same opportunities as the Brian O'Driscoll's . . . "

McGeeney was speaking at yesterday's launch of the GPA's Opel Player of the Month awards for 2007, which will run from April to October. Former Kerry manager Jack O'Connor takes over as chairman of the football judging committee, with former Cork manager Donal O'Grady continuing on the hurling side.

I'm not sure that's necessarily as reassuring as all that.


What I will not buy into is this logic that €2500, or €3500, or whatever, is not professionalism because it's "not much". I know it's not much, but it still is conceding the principle. We cannot allow players to be paid in exchange for playing (or "compensated for work lost") because as soon as we do there is nowhere else along the road to amalgamated intercounty teams with completely professional panels that the GAA will be able to call a halt.

I'm still not in favour of this particular set up, and I firmly believe that the Government is going to want to pull out of it for fear of comparitive claims and that the GPA will still expect the GAA to step in when the Govt. decides it doesn't want to any more. However that said, as long as these are receipted expenses compensating players for all these things that they have to pay for to play for their county, then that's fair enough.

Quote from: Lone Shark on April 12, 2007, 12:58:49 PM
I'm not sure that's necessarily as reassuring as all that.

Understand, half-full or half-empty, and the devil will be in the detail no doubt.

Exactly LS. I've not been in this debate since I posted on the other thread, but what you are saying is my position as well. The principle, in my opinion, has been ceded. If these grants are paid, no questions asked or receipts needed, ON TOP of the existing expense system, then they are effectively a reward, or a remuneration for playing the games to a certain level.

That is the thin edge of a very dangerous wedge. If PFP ever does become an agenda item, the GAA have at the very least weakened their idealogical position by coming out in favour of this. If the GPA had negotiated a deal directly from the Government sans any GAA involvement, then at least the GAA could say it was done without our approval, and we still firmly believe that no money should be paid to amateur players above and beyond legitimate expenses.

Your doomsday scenarios are fairly radical, but are certainly on the radar I would have thought. In 20 years time, with the current direction, I am convinced that we will have 10 or 16 Senior, semi-professional, teams competing for the Sam Maguire, and probably 6 senior teams competing for the Liam McCarthy. Everybody else will be amateur, playing for the Tommy Murphy/Nicky Rackard/Dessie Farrell cup, and trying to be picked for the pro teams so they can get paid.

The Club will be the third level, and as soon as a player makes the county team, he will only play for the club when recovering from injury, or suspended from Inter-'County' games.

I picture a bastardised version of the Rugby situation in Ireland at the moment.

I would sign up to your summary AZ and I don't understand how anyone can conclude that this is not the logical path of progression.

If people think attendences will fall because players get expenses or are even semi pro you are quite simply on a different planet.

I still dont understand the absolute certainty that payment means the county structures will collapse.

If anything big fish in small ponds will get better rewards.

QuoteI still dont understand the absolute certainty that payment means the county structures will collapse.

With the greatest respect there seem to be a lot of basic things you don't understand. The day GAA players are paid is the beginning of the end for the GAA and a great day for soccer and other less popular sports. The main reason is that lads who are out of their houses 5 nights a week at meetings, matches, trainings etc will say - "f**k it, why am I bothering".

QuoteI still dont understand the absolute certainty that payment means the county structures will collapse.

Also, this is the same argument cigarette companies used for years to resist regulation, etc. "There's no absolute certainty that smoking causes cancer". Who defined the requirement as "absolute certainty"? If there's any significant possibility that a catastrophic outcome will result from a particular circumstance, it's prudent to eliminate that circumstance.

Quote from: dublinfella on April 13, 2007, 01:54:54 AM
If people think attendences will fall because players get expenses or are even semi pro you are quite simply on a different planet.

That's it exactly dublinfella, professionalism (fact, de facto) is a different planet insofar as the GAA is concerned.

Amateurism is the glue that holds this whole association together, and once that's contaminated the whole structure is compromised (and there are recent precendents here).

I fully agree with everyone on the board who is against any form of pay for play.  However, I don't agree with the total doomsday senario expressed by some, it could happen, but it mightn't.

My major problem with all of this is that the boys at the top Dessie Farrell, Kieran McGeeney, Donal og Cusack (mouth piece), etc have done very well out of the GAA.  Don't anyone try and tell me that these boys have suffered because of their committment to the GAA.  For a start off, they have experienced joys which the rest of us can only dream about.  And off the field they are well looked after, cushy jobs, endorsements, etc (Dessie Farrell's employment is as a direct result of his playing career and also because of the very existence of the GAA). 

The problem is that the fat cats at the top table are the ones out with the begging bowl and its hard to take them seriously when they say that they are suffering some sort of hardship due to the love of their sport.  They do train hard and put in a big effort, however a mans playing career is so short it isn't nearly long enough, to spend it with a chip on your shoulder is not doing justice to themselves or the sport they have chose to play.

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 13, 2007, 10:51:38 AM

QuoteI still dont understand the absolute certainty that payment means the county structures will collapse.

With the greatest respect there seem to be a lot of basic things you don't understand. The day GAA players are paid is the beginning of the end for the GAA and a great day for soccer and other less popular sports. The main reason is that lads who are out of their houses 5 nights a week at meetings, matches, trainings etc will say - "f**k it, why am I bothering".

do soccer, golf, rugby, athletics, basketball players give up because the elite get a wedge? 'im not going to the driving range because tiger is a billionaire'  ::) surely the oppprtunity to make a few quid might retain players? its as plausible

Quote from: Hardy on April 13, 2007, 11:05:05 AM

QuoteI still dont understand the absolute certainty that payment means the county structures will collapse.

Also, this is the same argument cigarette companies used for years to resist regulation, etc. "There's no absolute certainty that smoking causes cancer". Who defined the requirement as "absolute certainty"? If there's any significant possibility that a catastrophic outcome will result from a particular circumstance, it's prudent to eliminate that circumstance.

what is the catastrpohic outcome? would you honestly give the game up if one of the lads in your club got the opportunity to make a few bob? if you would you are one begrudging f**ker.

Dublinfella, your arguments are typical of everything thisis about. The arguments in favour are all about what the individual can get out of it. Those who are arguing against are looking at thefuture of the GAA as a whole. Can you argue for the GAA as a whole.

Quote from: fearglasmor on April 14, 2007, 01:45:09 AM
. Can you argue for the GAA as a whole.

I wouldnt be that arrogant.

For the record I would be sceptical about professionals and even more opposed to the taxpayer footing the bill, but I would question the doomsday scenarios.

Quote from: dublinfella on April 14, 2007, 02:31:08 AM
I wouldnt be that arrogant.

For the record I would be sceptical about professionals and even more opposed to the taxpayer footing the bill, but I would question the doomsday scenarios.

You've been fairly arrogant up to now!! :P

The GAA as an organsiation/movement will not be able to sustain a full time professional base in either football or hurling or both, economicaly I just don't think that the figures would add up after the hype dies away, figures that would allow players to earn a decent wage and be full time pros.

I am against pay for play in this guise and am deeply suspicious of any the GPA and McGeeneys statement above - if the Government cut off this tax rebate in a few years, will the GPA merely leave it at that and not look to have it supplemented elsewhere? Will they f**k