The below article was in this weeks Anglo Celt and the majority of it also appeared in the "Match Preview" in the program of the Monaghan game the other night.
The background is that after the Antrim game he saw fit to come onto the Cavan thread and copy and paste what posters there had said about the game into a section called "what the internet pundits say" or something like that.
Some of us said that he was being lazy and he did not like it, this is the same journalist that posted a letter from a mentally unstable poster called RichieJ in the Celt about Val Andrews last year, which should not have got the time of day.
The best of it all is that he used to be a poster here.
The article
QuoteMemo to those who lurk in internet forums – man up or shut up please.
Cavan county board chairman Tom Reilly and his committee should speak to some of the faceless internet experts – they know all the answers, writes Anglo-Celt Sports editor Paul Fitzpatrick.
The Internet is another country; they do things differently there. It would make you wonder. Why do ordinarily sane punters turn into abusive, angry, bewildered lunatics, foaming at the mouth with a righteous rage, their plan of attack just that – an all-out offensive?
They are like the viscous drunk we all know, who changes when the liquor is in. It's a case of "with keyboard veritas" to coin the phrase. Of course, it's not the effect of sitting down at a computer or with a smartphone that creates this altered state of mind; rather it's the drug of anonymity.
Unhappy with how others perceive you in real life? No problem, switch your attentions to a made-up world and live vicariously through an online persona.
I have no problem with fair comment online but personal criticism(when the "alligator", as a famous politician once said, hasn't the courage to put their own name on it) is cowardly and unfair. Cavan footballers and management would surely agree – in fact, I know they do, because they have said so privately.
After the Antrim game, we ran some of the online comments in a panel under the heading "what the internet pundits say". The reaction was amazing. It was lazy journalism, suggested one nameless poster. Others were clearly alarmed at being quoted, possibly because the fact that their very public utterances were printed in a newspaper meant that they had to stand over them, just as I and anyone else who writes in a newspaper does.
Journos get plenty of vitriol, but they can hack it, no pun intended, and secretely, in a lot of cases, probably enjoy the attention. But players, who train as hard as any professional sportsmen for little or no return, and managers, who try as best they can to turn out winning teams, often feel the brunt of it.
Where am I going with all this? Well, as usual, there was an online Armageddon last week following Cavans defeat to Antrim. Forget the fact that the Saffrons routed us in our own castle last April, Cavan were expected to go to Belfast and win last Sunday week. Nothing less or the keyboard warriors wouldn't be happy.
Of course, they didn't win, but it wasn't for want of trying. Antrim have had the upper hand for a few years and the home advantage. Cavan were missing a few important men, trying out new tactics and positioning of players. They competed well, and they were in a winning position, but didn't close it out.
And the internet experts? Well there were about 600 punters in total at the game, most of whom were from Antrim. The majority of those who lurk in online message boards, then, weren't at the match about which they were commenting.
Amid all the guff, however, (and I didn't go through it all, life is too short to hang on the ramblings of the semi-literate and anonymous) there was one morsel of wisdom.
"Every time we lose" noted one poster, I think, on the gaaboard.com web-site, "we try to re-invent the wheel" Bang! Spot on. A rare diamond in the rough.
Cavan lost to Antrim – on another day, maybe with another referee, we'd have beaten them. What does that mean? It means we lost by 2 points and needed to beat Monaghan so as not to come under pressure. Nothing more, nothing less.
That doesn't mean Cavan need a new manager, or to bring back old players or drop young ones, or any reaction of that type. We're coming from a low base, having won – going into last Saturdays game – six matches in league and championship from the last 20. "Monaghan", we wrote in the programme last Saturday, "will bring huge enegery and confidence after their fantastic win over Meath last week. In Malachy O Rourke, they have one of the best managers in the game, and they have a potent blend of experience, scoring power, physique and young talent.
"But, to use a cliché, it's a local derby, and results which run counter to the form book are common in those fixtures. Cavan are at home and, as Michael Hannon pointed out in a recent mostly football column in the Anglo-Celt, that's worth a 5% boost. An extra game under Cavans belts will bring them up another notch and if Terry Hylands troops can hold their focus for the full 70 minutes – Cavan haven't done that in years – they will be very hard to beat. And if everything does come right and the season is not so much salvaged as steered back on course, even the internet pundits might be happy. And pigs might fly, too" They weren't happy of course. One person who posts under their real name wrote to question whether the piece was accusing him of idiocy (it wasn't – he has the cojones to put his name to his words). Another supporter emailed saying "well done – it had to be said". And the chorus line had it that your correspondent "let the Celt down"
It was all to be expected. The rules of the engagement, you see, aren't fair. Write in a newspaper and you must be able to back it up, meet those you praise or criticise on the street; hide behind a made up moniker on an internet forum and you can libel individuals, cast aspersions and spit out whatever vitriol comes into your head, without fear or repercussions.
There are some very knowledgeable posters on message boards, and often there are those with more-than-tenuous links to the team (and Val Andrews even suggested that some were actually members of the panel itself). The question is, though, in an age of social media, just what do these fellas have to hide?
A bit ironic of them to describe others as semi-literate given the "enegery" they put into proof-reading their own drivel.
Oh and for the record, my name is David Keane, I live in Dublin, and your article is pathetic.
i think hes pretty much spot on really . though he can help Hamel with some petty insults himself
with his 'ramblings of the semi-literate' remark.
but every time i read a comment section now im astonished at how bitter some comments are and thenthere the guys who always bring their own bugbears into every conversation esp the guy who can tie everything Back to the recession and 'thieving bankers and politicians'
Paul Fitzpatrick spent last summer stirring up the Seanie Johnson affair and made quite a name for himself, he even made it onto national radio. But then it wasn't Paul who felt the brunt of this ,no it was it was one these amateur footballers that he's now trying to protect expect he was wearing a different county jersey. He is just a another provincial journalist that never made it to the big leagues whose opinion is no more or less valid than any of ours.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on February 14, 2013, 12:02:15 PM
Paul Fitzpatrick spent last summer stirring up the Seanie Johnson affair and made quite a name for himself, he even made it onto national radio. But then it wasn't Paul who felt the brunt of this ,no it was it was one these amateur footballers that he's now trying to protect expect he was wearing a different county jersey. He is just a another provincial journalist that never made it to the big leagues whose opinion is no more or less valid than any of ours.
+1
Who is he/was he on here? I wish I was from Cavan... I may have my name in the papers by now.
Quote from: Keane on February 14, 2013, 11:35:19 AM
A bit ironic of them to describe others as semi-literate given the "enegery" they put into proof-reading their own drivel.
Oh and for the record, my name is David Keane, I live in Dublin, and your article is pathetic.
Sorry, I transcribed that article by hand so spelling mistakes are probably mine!
Quote from: mylestheslasher on February 14, 2013, 01:47:21 PM
Quote from: Keane on February 14, 2013, 11:35:19 AM
A bit ironic of them to describe others as semi-literate given the "enegery" they put into proof-reading their own drivel.
Oh and for the record, my name is David Keane, I live in Dublin, and your article is pathetic.
Sorry, I transcribed that article by hand so spelling mistakes are probably mine!
f**king hell myles :D :D :D
Sorry Keane - didn't see your second post before I replied. I thought it was worthy of discussion on the Cavan thread so typed it out and put it in there. No harm if others also wish to comment on the general board I suppose.
For what its worth I think he has some valid points regarding the reaction of some after the Antrim game but I have to say these comments are mostly valid against posters on the Hoganstand. Over there, on the Cavan boards, there are quite a few posters that have it in for Terry Hyland as they did for Andrews. Possibly a fall out from the Sean Johnson affair. I think on here the discussion is more mature. I think perhaps Paul would have been prudent to point that out as the article seems to make general swipes at people who post on boards. He should also know that many of us have travelled up and down this country at great expense to watch out teams and perhaps are at least entitled to an opinion. The "semi literate" comment is just unwarranted really.
Spot on Myles
Forums are full of over reaction and anomonity encourages some vitriolic diatribe. However the "semi literate" comment let him down no end. Does that mean uneducated or people with a low IQ etc, can't have an opinion? I think he should apologise for such an unwarranted comment.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on February 14, 2013, 01:47:21 PM
Quote from: Keane on February 14, 2013, 11:35:19 AM
A bit ironic of them to describe others as semi-literate given the "enegery" they put into proof-reading their own drivel.
Oh and for the record, my name is David Keane, I live in Dublin, and your article is pathetic.
Sorry, I transcribed that article by hand so spelling mistakes are probably mine!
Feckin' Hell, Myles. I've deleted my post disparaging his writing. Apologies to Paul FitzPatrick.
Quote from: Hardy on February 14, 2013, 03:45:56 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on February 14, 2013, 01:47:21 PM
Quote from: Keane on February 14, 2013, 11:35:19 AM
A bit ironic of them to describe others as semi-literate given the "enegery" they put into proof-reading their own drivel.
Oh and for the record, my name is David Keane, I live in Dublin, and your article is pathetic.
Sorry, I transcribed that article by hand so spelling mistakes are probably mine!
Feckin' Hell, Myles. I've deleted my post disparaging his writing. Apologies to Paul FitzPatrick.
You're hole post was based on only speling mistakes, thats just pety.
ps - I've put in a few more in for you to rant on about now ya big meath mucker.
Which are the deliberate errors?
Quote from: Dinny Breen on February 14, 2013, 12:02:15 PM
Paul Fitzpatrick spent last summer stirring up the Seanie Johnson affair and made quite a name for himself, he even made it onto national radio. But then it wasn't Paul who felt the brunt of this ,no it was it was one these amateur footballers that he's now trying to protect expect he was wearing a different county jersey. He is just a another provincial journalist that never made it to the big leagues whose opinion is no more or less valid than any of ours.
But if Seanie Johnson had a problem with what Paul Fitzpatrick had to say then he knew exactly where to go for some redress. It's getting a bit repetitive watching hacks lash out at the internet for being a repository of ill-informed trolldom, and I'm certain it reflects angst at their livelihood being threatened. Doesn't mean they're wrong about the trolls though.
oh the irony... that journalism always get it right ethically and that internet forums in the main are full of trolls! now a well researched piece on the culture, scope and depth of communication about gaelic games on internet forums would be very welcomed. but to dismiss it as something so narrow and thin as he has depicted lacks an understanding of what actually is going on. i love getting on here and chatting about stuff. it's a great way for the aul' diaspora to connect with your own and your culture and get your fiil of a sense of belonging. nothing better than watching the same games, living the same experiences as those at home and discussing it, high or low brow, silly or serious, as it's living the same thing in real time and not discussing different experiences. brings us closer to home. + some people on forums have an axe to grind because they want things to be a certain way. but so what? opinions are there to be discussed. which is very different to journalism, which presents an expert view with little, and mainly no, recourse to debate about the opinion of an article. at least on internet forums, you have an opinion, you have to explain the position and enter into a debate about the pros and cons and the ambiguities of it all. far more democratic than the we the experts, you in need of education argument of egotistical journalists against us poor illiterates, the great unwashed.
I just wish Connacht journos were half as exciting as their Ulster cousins.
Quote from: deiseach on February 14, 2013, 04:29:53 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on February 14, 2013, 12:02:15 PM
Paul Fitzpatrick spent last summer stirring up the Seanie Johnson affair and made quite a name for himself, he even made it onto national radio. But then it wasn't Paul who felt the brunt of this ,no it was it was one these amateur footballers that he's now trying to protect expect he was wearing a different county jersey. He is just a another provincial journalist that never made it to the big leagues whose opinion is no more or less valid than any of ours.
But if Seanie Johnson had a problem with what Paul Fitzpatrick had to say then he knew exactly where to go for some redress. It's getting a bit repetitive watching hacks lash out at the internet for being a repository of ill-informed trolldom, and I'm certain it reflects angst at their livelihood being threatened. Doesn't mean they're wrong about the trolls though.
I don't know if Seanie had a problem with it, do you? I do know however that Seanie Johnson was abused via social media and on the terraces of Breffni Park and other grounds and Paul Fitzpatrick with his articles and his twitter exploits helped play a part in this. I have no doubt he helped inflame on already sensitive issue. Journalistic standards don't apply to this forum or any other forum but I felt his articles on Seanie Johnson last year were subjective and unbalanced and seemed on a personal crusade at times to belittle Kildare and Kildare football whenever the opportunity arose. I don't know the man personally and I'm sure he's probably a nice person and all that but his sports reporting belongs in the gutter as far as I am concerned.
I wonder has he had many conversations with real Gaa supporters?
He is making two mistakes in my opinion:
1)
There are always those that over-react to results. A loss is the absolute end of the world, while a win means time to check to see which weekend in September Tony Fearon has booked his hotel and then book the one after. Kerry have lost 2 matches and the yerra lads I work with are talking Cuban Missile Crisis. Read a Roscommon thread or better still go to a match with them. Watch Effin Eddie!
This behaviour is observable by the odd punter at every club in the country on most weekends of the year. The internet forums provide a window to see it, but the internet hasn't somehow created this phenomenon.
2)
He thinks we are somehow competing with journalism. Very few of us would see a forum such as this in that light. This is an extension of conversations we would have at work, at matches etc. It is a 'Discussion' forum not an Editorial forum. This may be slightly naive on our parts as we are technically publishing our opinions but are we better saying nothing?
Quote from: muppet on February 14, 2013, 05:27:17 PM
I wonder has he had many conversations with real Gaa supporters?
He is making two mistakes in my opinion:
1)
There are always those that over-react to results. A loss is the absolute end of the world, while a win means time to check to see which weekend in September Tony Fearon has booked his hotel and then book the one after. Kerry have lost 2 matches and the yerra lads I work with are talking Cuban Missile Crisis. Read a Roscommon thread or better still go to a match with them. Watch Effin Eddie!
This behaviour is observable by the odd punter at every club in the country on most weekends of the year. The internet forums provide a window to see it, but the internet hasn't somehow created this phenomenon.
2)
He thinks we are somehow competing with journalism. Very few of us would see a forum such as this in that light. This is an extension of conversations we would have at work, at matches etc. It is a 'Discussion' forum not an Editorial forum. This may be slightly naive on our parts as we are technically publishing our opinions but are we better saying nothing?
i'd put money on him having the odd rant, the odd uncontrollable catastrophising swearing session himself. nothing like the doldrums to bring the best out in us all.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on February 14, 2013, 05:12:17 PM
Quote from: deiseach on February 14, 2013, 04:29:53 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on February 14, 2013, 12:02:15 PM
Paul Fitzpatrick spent last summer stirring up the Seanie Johnson affair and made quite a name for himself, he even made it onto national radio. But then it wasn't Paul who felt the brunt of this ,no it was it was one these amateur footballers that he's now trying to protect expect he was wearing a different county jersey. He is just a another provincial journalist that never made it to the big leagues whose opinion is no more or less valid than any of ours.
But if Seanie Johnson had a problem with what Paul Fitzpatrick had to say then he knew exactly where to go for some redress. It's getting a bit repetitive watching hacks lash out at the internet for being a repository of ill-informed trolldom, and I'm certain it reflects angst at their livelihood being threatened. Doesn't mean they're wrong about the trolls though.
I don't know if Seanie had a problem with it, do you? I do know however that Seanie Johnson was abused via social media and on the terraces of Breffni Park and other grounds and Paul Fitzpatrick with his articles and his twitter exploits helped play a part in this. I have no doubt he helped inflame on already sensitive issue. Journalistic standards don't apply to this forum or any other forum but I felt his articles on Seanie Johnson last year were subjective and unbalanced and seemed on a personal crusade at times to belittle Kildare and Kildare football whenever the opportunity arose. I don't know the man personally and I'm sure he's probably a nice person and all that but his sports reporting belongs in the gutter as far as I am concerned.
His report on SJ was 100% accurate though (imo) and don't forget Seanie was well able to use the papers to put his spin on things too. Check out any of the 100 articles he has writen on him in the irish indo. Do you think the abuse from the terraces was brought on by an article in the Celt? Is it not more likely the togging out for another county and stepping into Breffni to play his old county was the reason for the abuse?
awful lot of truth in what he writes
Quote from: mylestheslasher on February 14, 2013, 07:11:44 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on February 14, 2013, 05:12:17 PM
Quote from: deiseach on February 14, 2013, 04:29:53 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on February 14, 2013, 12:02:15 PM
Paul Fitzpatrick spent last summer stirring up the Seanie Johnson affair and made quite a name for himself, he even made it onto national radio. But then it wasn't Paul who felt the brunt of this ,no it was it was one these amateur footballers that he's now trying to protect expect he was wearing a different county jersey. He is just a another provincial journalist that never made it to the big leagues whose opinion is no more or less valid than any of ours.
But if Seanie Johnson had a problem with what Paul Fitzpatrick had to say then he knew exactly where to go for some redress. It's getting a bit repetitive watching hacks lash out at the internet for being a repository of ill-informed trolldom, and I'm certain it reflects angst at their livelihood being threatened. Doesn't mean they're wrong about the trolls though.
I don't know if Seanie had a problem with it, do you? I do know however that Seanie Johnson was abused via social media and on the terraces of Breffni Park and other grounds and Paul Fitzpatrick with his articles and his twitter exploits helped play a part in this. I have no doubt he helped inflame on already sensitive issue. Journalistic standards don't apply to this forum or any other forum but I felt his articles on Seanie Johnson last year were subjective and unbalanced and seemed on a personal crusade at times to belittle Kildare and Kildare football whenever the opportunity arose. I don't know the man personally and I'm sure he's probably a nice person and all that but his sports reporting belongs in the gutter as far as I am concerned.
His report on SJ was 100% accurate though (imo) and don't forget Seanie was well able to use the papers to put his spin on things too. Check out any of the 100 articles he has writen on him in the irish indo. Do you think the abuse from the terraces was brought on by an article in the Celt? Is it not more likely the togging out for another county and stepping into Breffni to play his old county was the reason for the abuse?
Not quite 100% accurate. He claimed Kildare had failed to beat Meath under McGeeney which was incorrect!
http://www.anglocelt.ie/sport/gaelicfootball/articles/2012/02/15/4009016-seanie-we-hardly-knew-ye--and-now-youre-gone/ (http://www.anglocelt.ie/sport/gaelicfootball/articles/2012/02/15/4009016-seanie-we-hardly-knew-ye--and-now-youre-gone/)
Paul must have selective vision when reading these forums. The reaction to the Antrim defeat on here by Cavan posters was as good a reaction as you're likely to get. Nobody targeted players for abuse, nobody called for Hyland's head. BHM did say something about forgetting the team building excuses and just winning the next game, Rodney was slightly miffed at being quoted in The Celt and I posted this
My problem with it is the poor effort at journalism that it represents and the fact that it gives the impression (as Val did last year giving out about forums) that what we say on here matters at all. I enjoy coming on here and writing and reading opinions and small bits of information that I might not hear otherwise but I'm also very aware that it's easy to log on here on a Sunday evening and give an "opinion" on a game that I might not even have bothered to attend. This is a faceless community with no accountability for what we say and we should be treated as such. There are a panel of lads and management putting in huge amounts of effort and the very least The Celt should be doing is talking to people that actually attended the game and not those who followed the game on twitter (as I did) and logged on here to comment.
If they really wanted public opinion then go on Twitter where whatever is said is fair game and in the public domain with a name behind whatever is said.
to which a few posters agreed yet Paul chose to completely ignore.
As for the whole issue of anonymity, that's why these forums work. Paul, you get paid to be sports editor, paid to attend games and write openly on games and take any heat that comes your way. We are mostly passionate fans who like to have somewhere to discuss Cavan football. Also, I can't see how you can go on such a rant against us on here and then feel it appropriate to quote us in The Celt? Slightly hypocritical no?
He is a good journalist and I'm glad we have him in our local paper but this attack on internet posters is a foolish endeavor. There are a certain element of complete gobshites (RichieJ, Sheva7, gaelstud) but that should not tar the whole concept of forum discussion.
Quote from: Westside on February 14, 2013, 08:32:39 PM
Paul must have selective vision when reading these forums. The reaction to the Antrim defeat on here by Cavan posters was as good a reaction as you're likely to get. Nobody targeted players for abuse, nobody called for Hyland's head. BHM did say something about forgetting the team building excuses and just winning the next game, Rodney was slightly miffed at being quoted in The Celt and I posted this
My problem with it is the poor effort at journalism that it represents and the fact that it gives the impression (as Val did last year giving out about forums) that what we say on here matters at all. I enjoy coming on here and writing and reading opinions and small bits of information that I might not hear otherwise but I'm also very aware that it's easy to log on here on a Sunday evening and give an "opinion" on a game that I might not even have bothered to attend. This is a faceless community with no accountability for what we say and we should be treated as such. There are a panel of lads and management putting in huge amounts of effort and the very least The Celt should be doing is talking to people that actually attended the game and not those who followed the game on twitter (as I did) and logged on here to comment.
If they really wanted public opinion then go on Twitter where whatever is said is fair game and in the public domain with a name behind whatever is said.
to which a few posters agreed yet Paul chose to completely ignore.
As for the whole issue of anonymity, that's why these forums work. Paul, you get paid to be sports editor, paid to attend games and write openly on games and take any heat that comes your way. We are mostly passionate fans who like to have somewhere to discuss Cavan football. Also, I can't see how you can go on such a rant against us on here and then feel it appropriate to quote us in The Celt? Slightly hypocritical no?
He is a good journalist and I'm glad we have him in our local paper but this attack on internet posters is a foolish endeavor. There are a certain element of complete gobshites (RichieJ, Sheva7, gaelstud) but that should not tar the whole concept of forum discussion.
To be honest I was more miffed, because I thought I was the only person who had a quote in the Celt, when Tommy first mentioned it on here, he mentioned my name and I thought I was being singled out or something to the effect. He then explained BH and a few from Hoganstand were mentioned.
I know exactly what happened.
He did his little copy and paste into his article and we didn't think it was fair and was lazy journalism and posted a few comments on that nothing bad though.
He didn't like what we said and did the article in the "match preview" slagging us off.
I was the only poster here that seen it and that wasn't good enough for him. He wanted more to see, so he posted the exact same article in the Celt this week.
In Summary
Week 1 Celt - good enough to publish what posters have to say in Celt.
Weekend of monaghan game - We are lunatics and semi literate .
Week 2 Celt - We are lunatics and semi literate
The only logical reason i can see he did it is because he was upset that we kinda slagged him and the Celt off.
He is angry and not fit to take it.
He probaly was upset yeah, but was it suppose to be a positive thing posting things in the Celt, maybe i read it wrong and and the others here, becuase we all thought it was negative.
This is an interesting debate. The regular attack on faceless internet comments by those with a profile is easy prey. If the comments meant so little then why are hacks on these pages? I know a national journo who regularly reads through these forums to "test the water" and "take a temp gauge" as he puts it. Opinion on here may be strong but they usually are backed with genuine sentiment.
Quote from: ck on February 14, 2013, 09:36:38 PM
This is an interesting debate. The regular attack on faceless internet comments by those with a profile is easy prey. If the comments meant so little then why are hacks on these pages? I know a national journo who regularly reads through these forums to "test the water" and "take a temp gauge" as he puts it. Opinion on here may be strong but they usually are backed with genuine sentiment.
Well, unless you're Mikey Sheehy, or Rossfan after a Friday night on the tiles.
Its just an opinion piece in a paper lads, no need to over react. Look at some forums like hoganstand and you'll see there are plenty of loons and I'm guessing it those type that he's having a dig at.
It's a bit like writing a newspaper article bitching about what you heard two people saying at the water cooler. That's how I see forums like this anyway, nothing more than an informal gathering place where people can shoot the shit and be as obnoxious or constructive as they like. Just because the format is in writing, rather than a verbal conversation that vanishes into thin air when it's done, doesn't mean we're supposed to live up to his lofty standards of journalistic integrity.
I will say though that the standard of discussion here is a bit higher than I've seen in other places. Hogan Stand for example, gawd I used to see some awful rubbish posted there when there was no registration required! The conspiracy theories and the rumour mill were a sight to behold.
The fact is that the internet has given a whole new audience to Gaelic games and allowed Irish (or otherwise nationalitied) people to stay in touch with grassroots opinions on message boards and forums, all in an age in which plenty have been forced to travel far from County Board Meetings and League fixtures in the pissing rain. All the parochial county gossip is left intact on hoganstand and GAAboard and the analysis ranges from the kind of flippant remarks you'd hear at games to the shrewd amateur tactical analysis of hardened and wizened observers.
The only reason these journalists are getting pissed off is because of how credible a threat the web is to their own platforms.