GAA congress to consider RWC role
SEÁN MORAN
Sat, Aug 18, 2012
The GAA will consider making available six grounds to facilitate Ireland's rugby world cup (RWC) bid. Today's Central Council meeting viewed a presentation proposing that a motion go to next year's annual congress to amend Rule 5.1, governing the use of association property in order to allow venues to be used for the tournament in 2023 or 2027.
If the motion passes the IRFU, who floated the proposal earlier this year, can proceed with formulating a bid by the deadline of this time next year. This would also be contingent on substantial government funding.
Croke Park would be needed for the final, as a venue with a capacity of at least 60,000 is required whereas a number of other provincial venues would also be required in order for the IRFU to propose sufficient locations to sustain their bid.
The grounds suggested at today's meeting include four Munster venues: Semple Stadium in Thurles, the Gaelic Grounds in Limerick, Fitzgerald Stadium in Killarney and Cork's Páirc Uí Chaoimh, which is due to be refurbished. The other two are Pearse Stadium in Galway City and Casement Park in Belfast, which is also due to be redeveloped.
During the rebuilding of Lansdowne Road between 2007 and 2010, Croke Park was made available for rugby and soccer internationals but that dispensation applied only to the headquarters venue and not any of the GAA's other venues.
A statement from the IRFU this afternoon, said: "The IRFU fully understands and respects this process and looks forward to the GAA's response in due course, while also acknowledging that any bid would be heavily dependent on support from the Government and the GAA.
The number of stadia that would be required for the tournament has not yet been decided, but a key element will be to establish the number of locations and venues available before a feasibility study is undertaken to determine Ireland's overall capacity to host the tournament."
IRFU chief executive Philip Browne added: "The Rugby World Cup in New Zealand showed what a country of four million people could achieve in terms of attracting visitors and showcasing the potential of a country, so an overall Ireland bid is something that the government was keen to discuss with us.
"I think everybody is aware of the benefits from both a social and economic perspective that would come from hosting the third largest sporting event on the globe. We are at the early stages of examining the feasibility of a bid and part of this study is to determine the interest and support of Government and other relevant bodies."
...
© 2012 The Irish Times
Thoughts on this? Seems a rock and a hard place to me. The GAA can't be seen to oppose to such a move, but if the GAA supports rugby in this way it will sign its own death warrant. An amateur body can't hope to compete with a international professional sport like modern rugby. The best thing the GAA had going for it was its nationalist identity. That's still strong in the Six Counties but down here in Mexico it seems to mean less and less by the day.
The GAA has absolutely nothing to fear from rugby. If they could get a handful of grounds renovated off the back of this then it would be well worth investigating at least.
Landsdowne Road, Thomond Park and Ravinhill are there already. How many pitches would be needed? Are any soccer pitches suitable?
If GAA pitches are used, don't think it will sign it's Death Warrant.
GAA is the number one sporting organisation here and no amount of RWCs will ever change that.
HQ should be all over this, some amount of € to rake in. Think the Athletic Grounds in Armagh should be considered as well as Casement and Ravenhill for venues in Ulster.
Quote from: Denn Forever on August 18, 2012, 07:25:43 PM
Landsdowne Road, Thomond Park and Ravinhill are there already. How many pitches would be needed? Are any soccer pitches suitable?
If GAA pitches are used, don't think it will sign it's Death Warrant.
Don't think a lick of paint round the brandywell or turners cross will be enough to be honest. I'd say you'd need in excess of 12 or around that figure, from what I remember though the french allowed Cardiff to host a match so we could lease out matches to our Celtic cousins.
I'd imagine Galway or the West would need to have a major stadium done up to accommodate the ould provincial strategy.
Quote from: fitzroyalty on August 18, 2012, 08:08:02 PM
GAA is the number one sporting organisation here and no amount of RWCs will ever change that.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 18, 2012, 06:57:30 PM
The GAA has absolutely nothing to fear from rugby. If they could get a handful of grounds renovated off the back of this then it would be well worth investigating at least.
Why do you think that fellas? A friend of mine is quite involved with a club in Galway and he tells me the inroads rugby is making are phenomenal. Supporting Connacht in the Heineken Cup is a chic thing to do in the city and, when he's doing under-age coaching, he notices that all the parents love rugby. Daddy loves it because it's so well organized, and Mammy loves it for the status it brings.
Rugby has access to money that the GAA can't dream of because it's an international sport, supported by blue-chip companies. Why would a young lad stick with the GAA instead of rugby in the face of all that glamour? The only reason I can think of is nationalism, and that is not the force it once was. Not even kinda.
Happy days...go for it. The All Blacks in Casement!! Bring it on ;)
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 18, 2012, 08:16:33 PM
Quote from: fitzroyalty on August 18, 2012, 08:08:02 PM
GAA is the number one sporting organisation here and no amount of RWCs will ever change that.
HQ should be all over this, some amount of € to rake in. Think the Athletic Grounds in Armagh should be considered as well as Casement and Ravenhill for venues in Ulster.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 18, 2012, 06:57:30 PM
The GAA has absolutely nothing to fear from rugby. If they could get a handful of grounds renovated off the back of this then it would be well worth investigating at least.
Why do you think that fellas? A friend of mine is quite involved with a club in Galway and he tells me the inroads rugby is making are phenomenal. Supporting Connacht in the Heineken Cup is a chic thing to do in the city and, when he's doing under-age coaching, he notices that all the parents love rugby. Daddy loves it because it's so well organized, and Mammy loves it for the status it brings.
Rugby has access to money that the GAA can't dream of because it's an international sport, supported by blue-chip companies. Why would a young lad stick with the GAA instead of rugby in the face of all that glamour? The only reason I can think of is nationalism, and that is not the force it once was. Not even kinda.
Provincial rugby is going strong but at the expense of the club game in Ireland which is dying a death. It also remains to be seen whether the recent success of the provinces can be sustained in the long run. The English and French clubs have threatened to pull out of the Heineken due to the advantages that the Celtic teams have over them. That would be a disaster for Irish rugby.
I see plenty of lads locally who have all of a sudden become big Leinster rugby fans in recent years. They have all the gear and go to a lot of the matches. These lads wouldn't know where the pitches of rugby clubs like Barnhall, North Kildare, Clane, Naas and Cill Dara are, never mind darken the door of the clubhouse itself. I'd accept that there are a lot of GAA followers in a similar situation but to nowhere near the same extent.
There are less rugby clubs in Ireland than there are GAA clubs in the entire county of Cork. Rugby has become quite popular but it will never be a threat to the GAA. There was a young lad from Maynooth on the Kildare minor team this year who gave up the chance to play on a Leinster underage squad preferring to stick with football. Migration and emigration are much bigger threats to losing much of a generation of young players.
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 18, 2012, 08:16:33 PM
Quote from: fitzroyalty on August 18, 2012, 08:08:02 PM
GAA is the number one sporting organisation here and no amount of RWCs will ever change that.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 18, 2012, 06:57:30 PM
The GAA has absolutely nothing to fear from rugby. If they could get a handful of grounds renovated off the back of this then it would be well worth investigating at least.
Why do you think that fellas? A friend of mine is quite involved with a club in Galway and he tells me the inroads rugby is making are phenomenal. Supporting Connacht in the Heineken Cup is a chic thing to do in the city and, when he's doing under-age coaching, he notices that all the parents love rugby. Daddy loves it because it's so well organized, and Mammy loves it for the status it brings.
Rugby has access to money that the GAA can't dream of because it's an international sport, supported by blue-chip companies. Why would a young lad stick with the GAA instead of rugby in the face of all that glamour? The only reason I can think of is nationalism, and that is not the force it once was. Not even kinda.
GAA in Connacht has nothing to worry about. If Rugby was making the serious inroads people are saying it would be only catching up with the particapation rates in the other provinces. The Gaa is well established through out Connacht and I think young people should play as many sports as possible then if they are serious and good enough at a sport they'll be well able to pick which one to concentrate when the time arises. If rugby has such an advantage over the GAA in Connacht , how come Joe Canning is still pucking bal for the Galway Hurlers and Kevin Keane , Pat Harte are playing for Mayo and James Gill is still playing football out in San Fran? The IRFU have to pay all there players , coaches , Refs etc and they have all but killed the club game which outside of Leinster all the provinces have relied heavy on clubs to produce and nurture players.
If Connacht Gaa can't compete with this then it's truly doomed ;)
Totally agree with you Crete!In Connacht especially,I don't think we have anything to worry about when it concerns Rugby!We have so many fantastic Gaa clubs throughout Connacht both at Junior,minor and intermediate level!For young kids/teens to participate in different sports is very important and if they are very good at Gaa/Rugby at a young age,they could pursue it at a later stage!In Ballina we a re lucky to have both Pat harte/David Clarke still playing for the Stephenites and Mayo!
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 18, 2012, 08:31:51 PM
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 18, 2012, 08:16:33 PM
Quote from: fitzroyalty on August 18, 2012, 08:08:02 PM
GAA is the number one sporting organisation here and no amount of RWCs will ever change that.
HQ should be all over this, some amount of € to rake in. Think the Athletic Grounds in Armagh should be considered as well as Casement and Ravenhill for venues in Ulster.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 18, 2012, 06:57:30 PM
The GAA has absolutely nothing to fear from rugby. If they could get a handful of grounds renovated off the back of this then it would be well worth investigating at least.
Why do you think that fellas? A friend of mine is quite involved with a club in Galway and he tells me the inroads rugby is making are phenomenal. Supporting Connacht in the Heineken Cup is a chic thing to do in the city and, when he's doing under-age coaching, he notices that all the parents love rugby. Daddy loves it because it's so well organized, and Mammy loves it for the status it brings.
Rugby has access to money that the GAA can't dream of because it's an international sport, supported by blue-chip companies. Why would a young lad stick with the GAA instead of rugby in the face of all that glamour? The only reason I can think of is nationalism, and that is not the force it once was. Not even kinda.
Provincial rugby is going strong but at the expense of the club game in Ireland which is dying a death. It also remains to be seen whether the recent success of the provinces can be sustained in the long run. The English and French clubs have threatened to pull out of the Heineken due to the advantages that the Celtic teams have over them. That would be a disaster for Irish rugby.
Which are? I thought it was just, "we want a few bob more."
The reason Connacht are making such inroads is due to the lack of GAA clubs within the city itself
I agree. The GAA should go for it.
The money could be used to make inroads into soccer dominated neighbourhoods
Quote from: trileacman on August 18, 2012, 09:02:50 PM
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 18, 2012, 08:31:51 PM
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 18, 2012, 08:16:33 PM
Quote from: fitzroyalty on August 18, 2012, 08:08:02 PM
GAA is the number one sporting organisation here and no amount of RWCs will ever change that.
HQ should be all over this, some amount of € to rake in. Think the Athletic Grounds in Armagh should be considered as well as Casement and Ravenhill for venues in Ulster.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 18, 2012, 06:57:30 PM
The GAA has absolutely nothing to fear from rugby. If they could get a handful of grounds renovated off the back of this then it would be well worth investigating at least.
Why do you think that fellas? A friend of mine is quite involved with a club in Galway and he tells me the inroads rugby is making are phenomenal. Supporting Connacht in the Heineken Cup is a chic thing to do in the city and, when he's doing under-age coaching, he notices that all the parents love rugby. Daddy loves it because it's so well organized, and Mammy loves it for the status it brings.
Rugby has access to money that the GAA can't dream of because it's an international sport, supported by blue-chip companies. Why would a young lad stick with the GAA instead of rugby in the face of all that glamour? The only reason I can think of is nationalism, and that is not the force it once was. Not even kinda.
Provincial rugby is going strong but at the expense of the club game in Ireland which is dying a death. It also remains to be seen whether the recent success of the provinces can be sustained in the long run. The English and French clubs have threatened to pull out of the Heineken due to the advantages that the Celtic teams have over them. That would be a disaster for Irish rugby.
Which are? I thought it was just, "we want a few bob more."
Many of the Celtic teams can rest players during the league because they are effectively guaranteed entry into the Heineken regardless of their finishing position.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9298558/English-Premiership-clubs-open-rift-with-Celtic-nations-over-Heineken-Cup-qualification.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9298558/English-Premiership-clubs-open-rift-with-Celtic-nations-over-Heineken-Cup-qualification.html)
Unlikely to happen but you never know. Then English clubs didn't compete the year Ulster won it.
Pass this ASAP
Why do the Rubbyites need 12 effin stadia for a so called "World " Cup with about 8 real competitors plus maybe 8 more makey up teams ?
Just how many people do they expect to go to Tonga v Georgia? Could be held in any Rugby Club ground.
I will NOT be voting for this if I'm a delegate to any Board , Council or Committee as it's not the GAA's job to promote bloody rubby?.
I think the GAA stands to lose more by refusing to cooperate with the IRFU on this one than it would by allowing its grounds to be used. It's a repeat of the situation we had in 2007 when Croke Park was opened to the IRFU/FAI to the mutual benefit of all parties concerned.
Apart from the financial benefits, it was a major public relations boost for the Association.
Liam O'Neill has just announced (RTE News) that the GAA has been approached and the CC is to undertake a feasibility study to examine the proposals.
Go for it, Liam!
Lets the grounds off the Laois, Liam!
I think the GAA should go for it. Spend the money on taking care of players properly the way the rubby crowd do.
When will the GAA and its members stop worrying about other sports? We're a paranoid organisation.
Just think of the fireworks display
A No brainer.
Might be a handy way of easing some existing debt issues? Get McHale park on that list
Quote from: stephenite on August 19, 2012, 02:01:31 AM
A No brainer.
Might be a handy way of easing some existing debt issues? Get McHale park on that list
Ah Jayus. First the Connacht final, next the World Cup Final? Where will it end??
Quote from: Syferus on August 19, 2012, 04:11:37 AM
Quote from: stephenite on August 19, 2012, 02:01:31 AM
A No brainer.
Might be a handy way of easing some existing debt issues? Get McHale park on that list
Ah Jayus. First the Connacht final, next the World Cup Final? Where will it end??
Proposed landing spot for the Martian's Earth Rover.
Definitely not. First impressions are lasting.
Quote from: Hardy on August 19, 2012, 11:35:23 AM
Definitely not. First impressions are lasting.
That's the point.
I personally am against it. However, I suppose it will get the go ahead. If Ireland gets the rugby world cup it won't change my attitude towards the game of rugby one bit.
having thought about it, I'm now not so sure.
when would the World Cup be played? During the GAA season?
what sort of funding would the event get?
What benefit would it have for the GAA?
What would the GAA do with any profit?
Do it and charge them a fortune. Not the GAA's fault that the Rugby people arent organised enough
Quote from: Two Hands FFS on August 19, 2012, 12:17:48 PM
Do it and charge them a fortune. Not the GAA's fault that the Rugby people arent organised enough
That's an incredibly cute thing to say when it's the GAA that has nearly a dozen white elephant stadiums that are hardly ever filled. It's rugby that's better organised on this front.
Quote from: neilthemac on August 19, 2012, 12:15:50 PM
having thought about it, I'm now not so sure.
when would the World Cup be played? During the GAA season?
what sort of funding would the event get?
What benefit would it have for the GAA?
What would the GAA do with any profit?
when would the World Cup be played? During the GAA season?
Yes, maybe we'll get some Kiwis at a few GAA games. Perfect chance to market our sport as well.
what sort of funding would the event get?
Lots.
What benefit would it have for the GAA?
Exposure, income.
What would the GAA do with any profit?
Well seeing as they pump so much back into clubs, it would likely be that. Would be great.
Quote from: neilthemac on August 19, 2012, 12:15:50 PM
having thought about it, I'm now not so sure.
when would the World Cup be played? During the GAA season? No, the Rugby WC is generally in October
what sort of funding would the event get? We don't know but wait until that is made known before making a judgement
What benefit would it have for the GAA? Improved facilities around a number of stadia, potential financial investment and potentially improved and wider exposure.
What would the GAA do with any profit? Financial input into the grass roots you would hope but once again save judgement until indicated
I'm not totally against the idea but there is some myths when it comes to the opening of gaa grounds to rugby. I don't think the gaa get anything out of the extra exposure talked about. I don't believe there were any significant additional members,players or supporters as a result of croke park being opened up. I can't see a rugby world cup doing anything to sell the gaa.
It would be the greatest shot in the arm and pr boost rugby would ever get in this country. The gaa may be mentiond briefly at the start of the competition in relation to the grounds but it would me extremely tiny in comparison to the exposure rugby would get during the tournament.
The one benefit the gaa would get would be a financial one. But I'm not convinced the money would be used in a way to promote the games properly.
You know Santa, I'm not even sure there'd be that much money in it.
I think everyone agrees that if the GAA are to do it, they should ask for a big ball of money for the use of their stadia. But when they do that, the IRFU can then go on a PR offensive and say that everything is in place for Ireland to host the Rugby World Cup except the money. The exhorbitent price being charged is breaking the camel's back. They talk to Joe about it, they get the Minister for Sport onside, they do the works. Will the GAA be able to face them down?
On the exposure thing, you're right of course. Rugby World Cups promote rugby. Nothing else. The GAA will mean the same as leprechauns and the Blarney Stone. Gas local colour, but not to be taken seriously.
Quote from: ONeill on August 18, 2012, 10:38:37 PM
When will the GAA and its members stop worrying about other sports? We're a paranoid organisation.
Agreed fully. It's almost like these people think Gaelic Football is a weaker sport, and we have to stop anyone else from finding out. Paranoid loons.
I'd also like to know why so many GAA fans want to market an Irish-only sport to a foreign audience. Who really gives a toss about what Max from Austria thinks about hurling? Inless he's got a holiday home in Bundoran, he's not going to be spending money on it anytime in the future.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 19, 2012, 10:23:30 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 18, 2012, 10:38:37 PM
When will the GAA and its members stop worrying about other sports? We're a paranoid organisation.
Agreed fully. It's almost like these people think Gaelic Football is a weaker sport, and we have to stop anyone else from finding out. Paranoid loons.
I'd also like to know why so many GAA fans want to market an Irish-only sport to a foreign audience. Who really gives a toss about what Max from Austria thinks about hurling? Inless he's got a holiday home in Bundoran, he's not going to be spending money on it anytime in the future.
As a gaa supporter my main concern is for the gaa. I'm just not convinced that bringing a rugby world cup to Ireland would do anything for our games. I think anyone who doesn't believe that giving another sport access to huge positive publicity and a free PR blitz would help sell their games to youngsters are naive in the extreme. I can only imagine the hype the Irish media would create over it. Rugby already gets a helping hand from the Dublin press but this would be a different scale.
Lads it all comes down to the benjamins as Kenny Egan would say. Or money in laymans terms.
Airy fairy notions of "what does it do for our games?" will be considered for about 5 minutes tops.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 19, 2012, 10:23:30 PM
I'd also like to know why so many GAA fans want to market an Irish-only sport to a foreign audience.
An "Irish-only" sport?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnszZJLdJHQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnszZJLdJHQ)
QuoteWho really gives a toss about what Max from Austria thinks about hurling? Inless he's got a holiday home in Bundoran, he's not going to be spending money on it anytime in the future.
A certain number of "Max from Austria" type people are going to take the sport up once they see it. For others, it's a spectator sport that can become a tourist attraction.
Only in defeatist Ireland would people play down the value of the greatest games on earth.
No brainer for the GAA to agree to this.
Money for nothing.
Very good for the country as well, given then number of visitors we'll get.
Will of course give rugby a boost in this county, but nothing substantial or long lasting. Unless Ireland win it! But I don't think that's going to happen.
The success of the provinces does far more for rugby in Ireland than the holding of a world cup will. We are losing some elite players to rugby, but few and far between. There's more provincial rugby supporters now, but most of them are GAA supporters too. I'm a "massive" Leinster supporter, go to all their Lansdowne Road Heineken Cup games, been there to see them lift 2 of their cups (and was overjoyed in doing it). But I've never been inside my local rugby club, even though I must have walked, cycled or driven past it well over a thousand times, and my kids are highly unlikely ever to go into it either.
While there are certainly things we can and should learn from rugby, we've nothing to fear from it.
Quote from: customsandrevenue on August 20, 2012, 02:29:43 AM
Anger and thrust here - eejits. How many after this post are so certain that they are getting angry/upset or certain they will be here by the time a third world war is over/busted post conflict or relying on GM Potatoes area would be able to host these post war/basic survival games.
Maybe it will be just a big long happy crawl through life as it is now in the interim with little interest in other Countries as survival normally is.
We'll all be a long time dead.
Try and enjoy the interim if it is possible.
These Celtic Tiger boys writhing in a bath of money does not seem to have gone away you know.
Sad scum thinking only about money in a future they may well not see.
Think of the family and the craic and those closest first and enjoy every day.
Well that's a different outlook on the whole thing!
It is a good idea to to open this up.
How many chances will we get to see a major international sporting championship in Ireland
Let's take the low assumption all the way.
We can assume the same commercial deal will apply as before, with (worst case) a bulk discount for a large number of matches over a short period - say 1 Million minimum per match in Croke Park, with proportionate rates for smaller stadiums.
Assume, given they have Aviva, Ravenhill and Thomond, that they only need Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Limerick, Pearse and Casement in addition to Croke Park (they'd probably need more, but let's be conservative). That's 8 stadiums for 40 matches, so we can assume 25 matches in GAA stadiums. Let's say it's just the final in Croke Park, so six matches each in the other four stadiums.
Croke Park
1 match, revenue = 1M
Cork
Capacity 40K, approx.
Fee per match, 1M*40/82.5 = .48M
6 matches, revenue = 2.9M
Limerick
Capacity 50K, approx.
Fee per match, .6M
6 matches, revenue = 3.6M
Galway
Capacity 36K, approx.
Fee per match, .44M
6 matches, revenue = 2.6M
Belfast
Capacity 40K, approx.
Fee per match, .48M
6 matches, revenue = 2.9M
Total revenue = 13 Million.
If you're a sports fan you want to see this happen becase you want the RWC in Ireland. GAA get a few quid, we get the RWC in Ireland - everybody wins, right?
If you are a GAA person first there are other things to consider - like first and foremost, what is in the GAA's best interests. I said this the time of debate about CP being opened but the exposure rugby will get will be greater than anything they could do for themselves. The England game in Croke Park is/was the most talked about game of rugby in the history of our country - "the day we grew up as a nation" apparently. Imagine what a RWC would do for rugby in this country? How much cash is worth giving a competitor that advantage? Will the GAA get that cash and will it be used in a targetted way to maximise the benefit to the GAA?
To say rugby is not making inroads (in Connacht even!!!!) is complete horsehit. When I was growing up one lad played rugby that played on our U-12 team - his family were steeped in it and he lived next door to the rugby club. I never played one minute of rugby in my life, it wasn't really there. Now that same guy I played underage football with has a full time job going into schools coaching rugby (and doing a fine job - he's a good guy and good luck to him) and we have to schedule our U-8 training sessions to not clash with rugby or we'll be well down numbers wise when the seasons overlap. They are facts and that is in Sligo - hardly a rugby stronghold.
I've nothing against other sports - I love sport and follow most sports and enjoy them. But I'm a GAA man first and foremost. I don't believe the good (money) outweighs the negative (huge competitive advantage for competitor). I fully understand I'm wasting my time talking about it because the GAA will feel they have a gun to their head and it's a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't." Maybe the lesser of two evils is to agree to go ahead with the bid but don't tell me it's good for the GAA.
Rugby are spending their (considerable) resources at grassroots level on coaching and in 3 provinces (Connacht situation is scandalous really) which brings huge media attention. They got a sweetheart deal from the government for their new stadium and have not invested in bricks and mortar like the GAA have (GAA may have overdone it but that's not the point). They do not have the facilities to host a RWC and don't deserve to if we're being honest.
Quote from: Redhand Santa on August 19, 2012, 10:30:57 PM
As a gaa supporter my main concern is for the gaa. I'm just not convinced that bringing a rugby world cup to Ireland would do anything for our games. I think anyone who doesn't believe that giving another sport access to huge positive publicity and a free PR blitz would help sell their games to youngsters are naive in the extreme. I can only imagine the hype the Irish media would create over it. Rugby already gets a helping hand from the Dublin press but this would be a different scale.
If the rubbyites want a "World " cup in Ireland let them build the stadia and pay for it themselves
They're well heeled enough 8)
Of course Varadkar being a politician will jump on any good news bandwagon while RTE and the Dublin based media will go all orgasmic over anything rubby.
As for exposure of GAA games - don't make me laugh. Those following this competition won't give 2 fcuks who owns the grounds in which the games are played.
What is this "rubby" stuff supposed to mean?
Seánie, your argument is a good one. I don't like the gun-to-the-head feel of this either and there's no doubt it would be a massive boost for rugby in Ireland.
It comes down to whether supporting this will be positive, neutral or negative for the GAA and anyone who pronounces on this is pretending they can predict the future. Unfortunately, the consequences of refusing to support it are clear and certain - massive negative effects for the GAA. We are forced into adopting a measure with uncertain consequences in order to avoid the certain negative consequences of not adopting it.
So we just have to make the best of it. The money will be useful (I hate the nasty innuendo of some here that the GAA will not use it wisely). The whole occasion will be good for the country and it can't happen without us. The GAA is essentially a community development organisation. What's good for the country is good for the GAA, so we would be investing in our own objectives in a roundabout way. And maybe the boost to the economy will bring home a few lads from Perth, Boston and Vancouver to their clubs.
And there are two ways of looking at competition - to fear it or to welcome it as a spur to improve ourselves. I remarked to the owner of my local, which was also the only restaurant in the village, that it was bad news when a competitor opened up next door to him. "Not at all", he says, "the more restaurants in the village, the more people come to the village to eat".
The more sporting options for youngsters, the more of them will put down their game controllers and try whatever sports are available to them.
Quote from: Hardy on August 20, 2012, 11:06:42 AM
What is this "rubby" stuff supposed to mean?
It's the way we say it around here ;D
Us not having been educated by Jesuits or the equivalent.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 20, 2012, 10:44:36 AM
Quote from: Redhand Santa on August 19, 2012, 10:30:57 PM
As a gaa supporter my main concern is for the gaa. I'm just not convinced that bringing a rugby world cup to Ireland would do anything for our games. I think anyone who doesn't believe that giving another sport access to huge positive publicity and a free PR blitz would help sell their games to youngsters are naive in the extreme. I can only imagine the hype the Irish media would create over it. Rugby already gets a helping hand from the Dublin press but this would be a different scale.
If the rubbyites want a "World " cup in Ireland let them build the stadia and pay for it themselves
They're well heeled enough 8)
Of course Varadkar being a politician will jump on any good news bandwagon while RTE and the Dublin based media will go all orgasmic over anything rubby.
As for exposure of GAA games - don't make me laugh. Those following this competition won't give 2 fcuks who owns the grounds in which the games are played.
So we can add insular to your list of vices, eh Ros?
It would be a PR disaster for the GAA to stand in the way of a bid. Sports in almost every other developed country play nice when it comes to stadiums. They are seen as commodities to be used, rented, converted, not political weapons to hit other sports with. The fúck them attitude is rooted in fear, mistrust and the same mentality of backward thinking that lead our entire country to its' currently peachy state.
Nothing wrong imo in getting a good wad of cash from the Government to renovate alot of our grounds which imo are absolutely awful asthetically and comfortwise (Longford an exception). FG govt will cream themselves over this and will imo benefit the GAA no end.
Some amount of guff over the last few years about rugby's threat to the GAA. There will always be rugby in Ireland as a place for young lads who are no good at other field sports to waddle around and "recycle" the ball and "go through the phases". And the best of luck to them as well.
No coincidence that Ireland has never gone past a world cup 1/4 final.
Quote from: Canalman on August 20, 2012, 11:34:47 AM
Nothing wrong imo in getting a good wad of cash from the Government to renovate alot of our grounds which imo are absolutely awful asthetically and comfortwise (Longford an exception). FG govt will cream themselves over this and will imo benefit the GAA no end.
Some amount of guff over the last few years about rugby's threat to the GAA. There will always be rugby in Ireland as a place for young lads who are no good at other field sports to waddle around and "recycle" the ball and "go through the phases". And the best of luck to them as well.
No coincidence that Ireland has never gone past a world cup 1/4 final.
Despite beating the second favourites for the World Cup as well as the reigning Tri Nations champions? Yeah, sure we've never beat those Welsh lads before.
Oh, and that Brian O'Driscoll fella, I saw him down O'Connell Street and he did look like a penguin. Nt one of the best athletes and sportspeople this country has ever produced or anything. Nope.
Where is the money going to come from. will the IRB pay the GAA to use their stadiums? I doubt it, why wouldnt they just go to south Africa or australia where they probably get the use of the grounds for nothing.
apart from croke Park and the supposed updating of grounds in Belfast and cork is anyother ground of a sufficient standard to host the games? Who will pay for upgrades? Will the tax payer be further burdened to host a rugby world cup while listening to the government talking about the cash windfall it will bring.
It wont happen i wouldnt think. Tax payers money should not be wasted to host this, we are in enough sh1t in this country without wasting money on this. If the IRB fund it then yes milk them dry.
Sure we've hosted groups, quarter finals and a semi final before in this country during the 1991 and 1999 Rugby World Cups. I don't recall a mass exodus towards rugby after those tournaments. As GAA people we really should have more confidence in our own games.
If the rugby crowd are willing to throw a few million towards the renovation of a three or four GAA grounds around the country off the back of this then I think it would be silly of the GAA not to at least make the offer. I can't imagine they'd require any more than that number of stadia from the GAA with Lansdowne, Thomond, Ravenhill and the RDS already there. Even the likes of Musgrave Park and the Sportsground in Galway would be more than adequate for pool matches involving the likes of Georgia, Russia, Romania, Tonga, Canada and the USA.
Quote from: Syferus on August 20, 2012, 11:31:17 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 20, 2012, 10:44:36 AM
Quote from: Redhand Santa on August 19, 2012, 10:30:57 PM
As a gaa supporter my main concern is for the gaa. I'm just not convinced that bringing a rugby world cup to Ireland would do anything for our games. I think anyone who doesn't believe that giving another sport access to huge positive publicity and a free PR blitz would help sell their games to youngsters are naive in the extreme. I can only imagine the hype the Irish media would create over it. Rugby already gets a helping hand from the Dublin press but this would be a different scale.
If the rubbyites want a "World " cup in Ireland let them build the stadia and pay for it themselves
They're well heeled enough 8)
Of course Varadkar being a politician will jump on any good news bandwagon while RTE and the Dublin based media will go all orgasmic over anything rubby.
As for exposure of GAA games - don't make me laugh. Those following this competition won't give 2 fcuks who owns the grounds in which the games are played.
So we can add insular to your list of vices, eh Ros?
It would be a PR disaster for the GAA to stand in the way of a bid. Sports in almost every other developed country play nice when it comes to stadiums. They are seen as commodities to be used, rented, converted, not political weapons to hit other sports with. The fúck them attitude is rooted in fear, mistrust and the same mentality of backward thinking that lead our entire country to its' currently peachy state.
Insular? Grow up gasúinín - it's you and bucks like you who touch the forelock to ye're rubby "betters" who have a problem.
It's as if ye're always looking for someone ( Brits/Yanks/Rubbyites) to say ye're great little ladeens altogether while independent thinkers like me ( and Cusack and the lads in 1884) don't give two sh1tes about those "someones" as we have belief and confidence in ourselves and our own.
The Country's curent "peachy state" was surely caused by arsholes who thought they were forward thinking internationalists and global players .
If and it's a big IF the GAA got a few million €s and got 3 or 4 of our grounds done up for free ( = you and I pay for it ::)) it might just be worth thinking about.
However the GAA's role is to foster our games not provide generic stadia for other sports to host international events.
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 20, 2012, 10:43:38 AM
To say rugby is not making inroads (in Connacht even!!!!) is complete horsehit. When I was growing up one lad played rugby that played on our U-12 team - his family were steeped in it and he lived next door to the rugby club. I never played one minute of rugby in my life, it wasn't really there. Now that same guy I played underage football with has a full time job going into schools coaching rugby (and doing a fine job - he's a good guy and good luck to him) and we have to schedule our U-8 training sessions to not clash with rugby or we'll be well down numbers wise when the seasons overlap. They are facts and that is in Sligo - hardly a rugby stronghold.
Where I grew up we had a rugby club down the road, available to all of Ballina. The National school across the road from the rugby club meant we all played both rugby and Gaelic football as the main sports available.
2 players would have been lost to GAA over my time - Gavin Duffy and William Ruane, both from families steeped in both sports, there may be one or two more throwing shapes to crack the big time these days but they ain't there yet
Off the top of my head most others stuck to playing Gaelic Football, some played both.
4 players won an All Ireland Club championship with the Stephenites in 2005, and a fair few county and provincial medals as well. 3 of these (no prizes for guessing who) played rugby to at least AIL level, the other 1 played club level rugby.
The rugby club is going well, but in these days of professionalism it's only the real cream that makes it to the top. Success is more attainable at club level in Gaelic football around the country on the ground, most people understand that and decide accordingly.
Every town has it's different dynamics so I'm not suggesting this is the blueprint for the rest of the country, my point is that the more we attempt to close ranks and try to protect what we have the more we lose, if that makes any sense. Rugby as a professional sport will always attract those with the talent to earn a living from it - but I really do believe that this will really be the rare exception as opposed to the rule for most - and the effect on the GAA will be negligible.
Lads play soccer in the off season, and most on here support a soccer team. Our club has a strong recent history of basketballers playing both sports. What's the difference?
If there is a bid for Ireland to host the Rugby World Cup the GAA can't be seen to stand in its way. That would a calamity.
What the GAA does have to do, though, is protect its own rights to private property, and charge true and correct rent for the use of that property.
Philip Browne, who is CEO of the IRFU, was on Morning Ireland this morning. He said that gate receipts were the only source of income for the Rugby World Cup, and it's on gate receipts that everything hinges. I find it hard to believe that TV revenue doesn't count for anything, and the reporter didn't pull him up on this issue either.
So what's happening is that the IRFU want the stadia for nothing, or next-to-nothing - just as I would if I were negotiating on their behalf - and have already opened that campaign. What the GAA now need to do is get on the airwaves to make two points, and make them over and over again:
- The GAA fully supports an attempt by for Ireland to host the Rugby World Cup because of the tremendous boost it would give the country in terms of tourism revenue.
- The GAA fully defends its rights to private property and will charge the market value for rental of the stadia.
They can't get sidetracked by arguments over what game is better or not. It's only those points they have to make, over and over again. Support the plan, charge full market value for the stadia.
The most important thing is they need to start spinning this now. If they don't, it will be taken as read that the GAA will do all in their power to help the bid - including offer the stadia at a discount rate. If they don't respond quickly, anything other than saying "three bags full" to the IRFU will sound like they're just being awkward and make the IRFU seem like martyrs being held to ransom by backwoodsmen.
The winner of an election is the side that sets the parameters of the debate. The GAA must respond before the arguments becomes what sacrifices can we make for the public good rather than do the GAA have the right to charge market rate for the stadia. The GAA have to make this point now. News at One, Five-Seven Live, Matt Cooper, Off the Ball - the works. They need to get the word out there. Support the plan, charge full market rate. Support the plan, charge full market rate. If they're asked the price of a pint of milk, talk about the market setting the price. If they're asked about Putin's Russia, talk about how much better Russia would be with an organisation like the GAA with its current sporting ecumenism. Every question has to be answered the same way. Support the plan, charge full market rate.
The GAA has to limit the damage of this as much as they can. Money is the only way they can do that. The IRFU have already started poor-mouthing about it. The GAA has to make its position clear while they still can.
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 20, 2012, 12:30:12 PM
Philip Browne, who is CEO of the IRFU, was on Morning Ireland this morning. He said that gate receipts were the only source of income for the Rugby World Cup, and it's on gate receipts that everything hinges. I find it hard to believe that TV revenue doesn't count for anything, and the reporter didn't pull him up on this issue either.
I think he might be right. Remember how some Unions were cribbing about not being allowed have their normal sponsors logos on their shirts? The IRB control the advertising revenue and that's why the NZRU lost a fortune hosting it
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2012, 12:36:07 PM
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 20, 2012, 12:30:12 PM
Philip Browne, who is CEO of the IRFU, was on Morning Ireland this morning. He said that gate receipts were the only source of income for the Rugby World Cup, and it's on gate receipts that everything hinges. I find it hard to believe that TV revenue doesn't count for anything, and the reporter didn't pull him up on this issue either.
I think he might be right. Remember how some Unions were cribbing about not being allowed have their normal sponsors logos on their shirts? The IRB control the advertising revenue and that's why the NZRU lost a fortune hosting it
The NZRU lost a fortune? Hold on a second. We've been told all along that this thing is a cash cow. If it's not, then we need to hear about that as loud as we can. For the GAA to not make money would be bad, but to be stiffed with a debt would be a nightmare.
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 20, 2012, 12:30:12 PM
So what's happening is that the IRFU want the stadia for nothing
Where did this idea come from? Certainly Browne didn't mention it. I don't think the thought would even occur to the IRFU, or anyone else, that the stadiums would be available rent-free. It's a complete non-starter, not least from the point of view of getting the approval through Congress. It's a commercial venture and the GAA will not be expected to participate at its own expense just for the fun of it.
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 20, 2012, 12:43:27 PM
The NZRU lost a fortune? Hold on a second. We've been told all along that this thing is a cash cow. If it's not, then we need to hear about that as loud as we can. For the GAA to not make money would be bad, but to be stiffed with a debt would be a nightmare.
The NZRU lost a fortune. NZ$31.3 million (http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/home/news/newsid=2062338.html) to be precise, which XE.com tells me is €20.55 million at current exchange rates. But it's defeatist to point that out, think of the boost to national self-esteem!
Quote from: Hardy on August 20, 2012, 01:01:00 PM
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 20, 2012, 12:30:12 PM
So what's happening is that the IRFU want the stadia for nothing
Where did this idea come from? Certainly Browne didn't mention it. I don't think the thought would even occur to the IRFU, or anyone else, that the stadiums would be available rent-free. It's a complete non-starter, not least from the point of view of getting the approval through Congress. It's a commercial venture and the GAA will not be expected to participate at its own expense just for the fun of it.
Sorry Hardy. Take it as next-to-nothing. I'll amend the original post.
Fear is healthy. It heightens awareness.
Complacency leads to decay and death.
What you're failing to take into account desiach is the fact that the NZRU lost $31.3 million dollars, not the economy as a whole. You have to spend money to make money and there has to be significant investment in infrastructure and development to host something of that magnitude. Do you think the Olympics turned a profit for the Organising Committee?? They spent £9bn!!!
The article you have highlighted have basically said it was an economic success:
"A partnership with national and local government is an important aspect of event delivery. New Zealand highlighted that through the significant economic returns for the host nation, the growth of major event expertise and experience, business to business opportunities and increases in Rugby engagement, Rugby World Cup is definitely a low-risk, high-return event for a host nation."
So who is paying the NZRU the 31.5m NZ$ they lost?
I presume all those who made a profit from the "significant economic returns" didn't share their profits with the NZRU?
If they lost that much in a Country where Rubby Union is the biggest sport how much will it cost the IRFU to have it in a Country where it's very much a minority sport despite what the media would have you think?
I imagine they lost money because NZ is miles from anywhere so there were very few travelling fans apart from those on packages or already living in that part of the world.
I assume they would expect vastly more travelling supporters for a World Cup in Ireland given it's proximity to the UK and Europe and also the large amounts of Australian, South African and New Zealand expats already living in the UK and Europe.
Quote from: screenexile on August 20, 2012, 02:52:44 PM
The article you have highlighted have basically said it was an economic success:
"A partnership with national and local government is an important aspect of event delivery. New Zealand highlighted that through the significant economic returns for the host nation, the growth of major event expertise and experience, business to business opportunities and increases in Rugby engagement, Rugby World Cup is definitely a low-risk, high-return event for a host nation."
To paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies, they would say that, wouldn't they?
Here's a waffle-free assessment of the cost of the RWC. Maybe the IRFU will take the hit in the national interest. More likely they'll dump the costs on the nation, everyone else in Dublin 4 has.
QuoteRugby World Cup costs us millions and must change, says New Zealand (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/sep/27/rugby-world-cup-revenue)
• Participation at 2015 tournament in England under threat
• NZRU bemoans lack of tours and opportunities for sponsors
Paul Rees in Auckland
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 27 September 2011 13.11 BST
The future of the Rugby World Cup will come under threat unless fundamental changes ensure leading nations do not lose millions in revenue at the 2015 tournament in England, according to the head of the New Zealand Rugby Union.
Steve Tew, the NZRU chief executive, has warned that competing at the World Cup has cost his union more than NZ$13m (£7m), a loss it could ill afford at a time when player costs were rising and the world economy was stagnating. Incoming tours are halted in a World Cup year and competing nations are not allowed to have any association with their sponsors for the duration of the tournament.
The International Rugby Board will by next May complete a review of how the World Cup is run. Tew said that unless changes were agreed, he feared his union, which is hosting this year's tournament, would not be able to afford to take part in the 2015 event.
"We think we are at a really important juncture," he said. "We want a couple of things taken very seriously around the IRB table. One is the money that flows through and out of Rugby World Cup. It is well publicised that the major unions lose a significant amount of money net by participating in the tournament and that makes absolutely no sense.
"We lose NZ$13.2m [£6.7m] worth of revenue after income from Rugby World Cup and costs are adjusted. It cannot carry on. We said at the last board conference that we needed a full review of the IRB's financial model, Rugby World Cup commercial rules and RWC money flows. We are waiting with some anxiety what the IRB are going to do about it.
"The IRB did put an extra £1m on the table for the major unions six months ago which helped and which was appreciated, but frankly the prospects of us going to England in 2015 under the current model are very slim. We cannot continue to sign on for an event that costs us so much money.
"We need to have serious discussions and some creative thinking to help us approach the next World Cup in a positive manner. I am not saying we will not be involved in 2015, but you either reform things through an evolutionary process or you plant a dag in the ground and say it's time to change."
One of Tew's complaints is that a union's sponsors are not allowed to have a mention during a World Cup because of potential conflicts with the tournament's backers, a rule drawn up because of the need to maximise profits and generate enough income to develop the game in nations below the top 10.
"The World Cup issues are multifaceted," said Tew, who said he was not advocating dipping into the pot reserved for the smaller countries. "The commercial rules for the tournament for participating unions are, we believe, far too tough, much tougher than Fifa's. If this was a soccer World Cup, the All Blacks' hotel would be decked out with our sponsors until Thursday (before a Saturday game). In a Rugby World Cup, our sponsors do not get a look-in. They are very excluded.
"All we want is what is best for world rugby. New Zealand and Australia tend to have to bang the table pretty hard at times to get people to listen. Our approach has always been to do things by negotiation and discussion and try to reach collaborative decisions, but ultimately you have to get something."
The IRB is anxious not to get involved in a public spat with one of its major unions. "The World Cup plays a critical role in the development and profile of rugby worldwide," a spokesman said. "It generates the revenues that are entirely reinvested and distributed by the board across our 117 member unions during the four-year cycle between tournaments to increase competitiveness and advance the strategic goal of implementing development plans in order that rugby can be a truly global sport.
"The current programme is £150m between 2009 and 2012 with approximately 50% of the revenues going to the tier-one nations. There are significant benefits for participation at rugby's showcase sport, including brand exposure to a broadcast audience in more than 200 countries worldwide.
"There are also huge benefits of hosting, ranging from stadia upgrades to participation increases. We will continue to work with our unions to ensure that the tournament continues to balance the strategic needs of our unions with the global development of the sport."
Looked at this briefly during my thesis, according to some economists global sporting events could only benefit a small amount of countries.
Anyway, Dublin will save us.
Quote from: stephenite on August 20, 2012, 12:10:27 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 20, 2012, 10:43:38 AM
To say rugby is not making inroads (in Connacht even!!!!) is complete horsehit. When I was growing up one lad played rugby that played on our U-12 team - his family were steeped in it and he lived next door to the rugby club. I never played one minute of rugby in my life, it wasn't really there. Now that same guy I played underage football with has a full time job going into schools coaching rugby (and doing a fine job - he's a good guy and good luck to him) and we have to schedule our U-8 training sessions to not clash with rugby or we'll be well down numbers wise when the seasons overlap. They are facts and that is in Sligo - hardly a rugby stronghold.
Where I grew up we had a rugby club down the road, available to all of Ballina. The National school across the road from the rugby club meant we all played both rugby and Gaelic football as the main sports available.
2 players would have been lost to GAA over my time - Gavin Duffy and William Ruane, both from families steeped in both sports, there may be one or two more throwing shapes to crack the big time these days but they ain't there yet
Off the top of my head most others stuck to playing Gaelic Football, some played both.
4 players won an All Ireland Club championship with the Stephenites in 2005, and a fair few county and provincial medals as well. 3 of these (no prizes for guessing who) played rugby to at least AIL level, the other 1 played club level rugby.
The rugby club is going well, but in these days of professionalism it's only the real cream that makes it to the top. Success is more attainable at club level in Gaelic football around the country on the ground, most people understand that and decide accordingly.
Every town has it's different dynamics so I'm not suggesting this is the blueprint for the rest of the country, my point is that the more we attempt to close ranks and try to protect what we have the more we lose, if that makes any sense. Rugby as a professional sport will always attract those with the talent to earn a living from it - but I really do believe that this will really be the rare exception as opposed to the rule for most - and the effect on the GAA will be negligible.
Lads play soccer in the off season, and most on here support a soccer team. Our club has a strong recent history of basketballers playing both sports. What's the difference?
So I'm guessing you reckon rugby is not a threat to the GAA and the GAA will retain its place as the dominant sporting organisation in the country? Is that a fair summation of your position? It's a position held by many and history would support it. I don't have a huge problem with that even though I don't necessarily agree with it.
I have a problem with the "have confidence in our own games and don't be afraid" brigade though. To me that smacks of complacency, the precursor in many instances to a swift fall from grace. I do have confidence that our games are excellent games, as good to watch and play as any in the world. The trouble is, society is changing and while the two biggest non-GAA field games in the country cater for elite* down to social players the GAA is increasingly focussed on the elite player with little or no avenue for the "social" player. People say club rugby is fecked cos of the provincial system - what about club GAA? Is it right that no championship has been played in Donegal for example? We have problems in the GAA and this head in the sand - "sure we'll be grand, have confindence, don't be afraid" rubbish is a symptom.
Typical All-Blackery. They've finally won the World Cup and now they're pulling out so that they can never lose it again.
Seanie, what you're taking about there though has nothing much to do with stadium rental.
Gaelic Games are steeped in our country's culture. I agree that adult club competitions are all too often shat upon. But the combination of parishes, clubs and schools mean almost every child in Ireland grows up with a GAA identity. Some choose not to pursue it, many arent bothered either way, but many use it as a badge for life.
Rugby could play the next 12 world cups in Ireland but they'll never be able to muster te combination of finances, structures and most importantly volunteers to make anything bigger than minor inroads on GAA accessibility. That's not complacency, it's common sense.
Wee Johnny might enjoy watching Munster but his dad isn't going to drive 40 miles round trip to get him playing it, especially not when dad and all his brothers played football for the club in the village
Quote from: thewobbler on August 20, 2012, 04:59:56 PM
Seanie, what you're taking about there though has nothing much to do with stadium rental.
Gaelic Games are steeped in our country's culture. I agree that adult club competitions are all too often shat upon. But the combination of parishes, clubs and schools mean almost every child in Ireland grows up with a GAA identity. Some choose not to pursue it, many arent bothered either way, but many use it as a badge for life.
Rugby could play the next 12 world cups in Ireland but they'll never be able to muster te combination of finances, structures and most importantly volunteers to make anything bigger than minor inroads on GAA accessibility. That's not complacency, it's common sense.
Wee Johnny might enjoy watching Munster but his dad isn't going to drive 40 miles round trip to get him playing it, especially not when dad and all his brothers played football for the club in the village
Sounds about right. The infrastructure for rugby just isn't there. I harp on about it, but the fact that there isn't a senior rugby club within forty miles of Waterford city is telling. You can worry about the impact of emigration, rural depopulation and the shambles in the club game and not worry about the possibility of rugby mowing down the GAA.
I accept all that but my point I guess is why don't we address our own issues rather than fall over ourselves to rent stadia to effectively a competitor? I think we're complacent in the GAA and that is what scares me.
The GAA is woven into the fabric of our society but all things come and go in time. 150 years ago cricket was hugely popular in places like Kilkenny & Tipperary I believe.
Quote from: stephenite on August 19, 2012, 12:03:16 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on August 19, 2012, 11:58:21 AM
I personally am against it.
Out of interest, why?
Ah, it's probably down to my 'couldn't give a toss about rugby' attitude more than anything. Because if there was a rugby match played across the road, I wouldn't go and see it.
I love rugby, myself. I think it's fantastic. I love nearly everything about it. But if it's a choice between one or the other, I hope I would follow Dr Hyde. He was quite the talented cricketer in his young day I believe but he picked a side and stuck with it. An under-estimated patriot.
On a point that Seanie made earlier about rugby and Connacht - one thing that is in the GAA's favour is that it's not always obvious how much rugby wants to spread its gospel. Its attitude to Connacht is miserable. It could be the IRFU are quite insular, really, and as long as the game is strong in its traditional bastions they don't give a toss. That's naive of them, if that's the case, but maybe GAA men should be grateful - if that's the word - for them holding their nose at the thought of us.
I also agree with Seanie about the dangers of complacency. Wobbler says that
Quote from: thewobbler on August 20, 2012, 04:59:56 PM
The combination of parishes, clubs and schools mean almost every child in Ireland grows up with a GAA identity.
Maybe two out of three ain't bad but relying on parishes doesn't seem a safe bet in post-Catholic Ireland.
If a levy is applied to all club rugby games and Heiniken Cup games of say € 1 / ticket and passed onto the GAA between now and 2023 then I would be happy to run with it.
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 20, 2012, 07:04:05 PM
I love rugby, myself. I think it's fantastic. I love nearly everything about it. But if it's a choice between one or the other, I hope I would follow Dr Hyde. He was quite the talented cricketer in his young day I believe but he picked a side and stuck with it. An under-estimated patriot.
On a point that Seanie made earlier about rugby and Connacht - one thing that is in the GAA's favour is that it's not always obvious how much rugby wants to spread its gospel. Its attitude to Connacht is miserable. It could be the IRFU are quite insular, really, and as long as the game is strong in its traditional bastions they don't give a toss. That's naive of them, if that's the case, but maybe GAA men should be grateful - if that's the word - for them holding their nose at the thought of us.
I also agree with Seanie about the dangers of complacency. Wobbler says that
Quote from: thewobbler on August 20, 2012, 04:59:56 PM
The combination of parishes, clubs and schools mean almost every child in Ireland grows up with a GAA identity.
Maybe two out of three ain't bad but relying on parishes doesn't seem a safe bet in post-Catholic Ireland.
Not in the Ros!
Quote from: Rossfan on August 20, 2012, 12:06:02 PM
Insular? Grow up gasúinín - it's you and bucks like you who touch the forelock to ye're rubby "betters" who have a problem.
It's as if ye're always looking for someone ( Brits/Yanks/Rubbyites) to say ye're great little ladeens altogether while independent thinkers like me ( and Cusack and the lads in 1884) don't give two sh1tes about those "someones" as we have belief and confidence in ourselves and our own.
The Country's curent "peachy state" was surely caused by arsholes who thought they were forward thinking internationalists and global players .
If and it's a big IF the GAA got a few million €s and got 3 or 4 of our grounds done up for free ( = you and I pay for it ::)) it might just be worth thinking about.
However the GAA's role is to foster our games not provide generic stadia for other sports to host international events.
Bring back "the ban" then. Anyone playing soccer or even going to a soccer match gets suspended. That kind of protectionism was always a roaring success in the past, wasn't it?
(PS: Cusack played rugby and cricket in his day too. Didn't seem to stop him from getting into Gaelic games, wouldn't you say?)
I agree that the GAA should never get complacent. The community identity thing is great - if your family has lived in the same location for generations. But if you're a blow-in with parents from somewhere like Poland, is it as easy to get into the GAA culture? Is it accessible to outsiders? Or is it a wee bit too clannish for its own good?
That said, hosting the RWC is going to promote sport and a healthy active lifestyle in a country that could use more of it. There's also the economic benefit of visitors and the international exposure that our tourist attractions get. We all benefit. Our duty is to the greater good.
Hope they aren't thinking of playing this Rubby shite in O'Moore Park Portlaoise.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_hHGQk8itk9I/Rei-J70phfI/AAAAAAAAAFE/IrH4dIMG5jw/s320/foreign%2Bgames.bmp)
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 20, 2012, 11:05:10 PM
I agree that the GAA should never get complacent. The community identity thing is great - if your family has lived in the same location for generations. But if you're a blow-in with parents from somewhere like Poland, is it as easy to get into the GAA culture? Is it accessible to outsiders? Or is it a wee bit too clannish for its own good?
That said, hosting the RWC is going to promote sport and a healthy active lifestyle in a country that could use more of it. There's also the economic benefit of visitors and the international exposure that our tourist attractions get. We all benefit. Our duty is to the greater good.
That's a very important point. I think for complete outsiders the GAA is probably the hardest of Ireland's major sports to get their heads around joining. You've seen a good few race barriers hurdled in recent years but perhaps the biggest way the GAA could re-brand itself as more accessible in peoples' eyes is aggressively target first and second generation Irish from immigrant families. Those are the people who will have dual cultural identities and should be more noticeably receptive to playing football and hurling. The more Lee Chin's and Craig Diaz's that are playing the game at a high level the more the public perception will change.
Once you get over the initial hurdle the sheer level of the support network in the GAA should do the rest.
of the Roscommon 2009 minor team, 4 of them have been lost to full time rugby - three of them currently contracted with Connacht, with one lad injured.
If the Roscommon under 21 team had those four players this year it could have got them over the line against Dublin in the final
And believe it or not, county Roscommon doesn't actually have ONE adult rugby club within the county
though rugby has got into most of the secondary schools - so they are making inroads
So if rugby can have this effect on a primarily GAA county like Roscommon, then what effect will increased exposure for rugby have elsewhere?
I personally think the GAA are very poor at promoting themselves and get poor value for money for the money put into coaching programmes
Quote from: neilthemac on August 20, 2012, 11:22:35 PM
of the Roscommon 2009 minor team, 4 of them have been lost to full time rugby - three of them currently contracted with Connacht, with one lad injured.
If the Roscommon under 21 team had those four players this year it could have got them over the line against Dublin in the final
And believe it or not, county Roscommon doesn't actually have ONE adult rugby club within the county
though rugby has got into most of the secondary schools - so they are making inroads
So if rugby can have this effect on a primarily GAA county like Roscommon, then what effect will increased exposure for rugby have elsewhere?
I personally think the GAA are very poor at promoting themselves and get poor value for money for the money put into coaching programmes
To be fair Creggs and Buccaneers are for all intensive purposes drawing as much from Roscommon as from Galway and Westmeath.
Quote from: Syferus on August 20, 2012, 11:27:13 PM
Quote from: neilthemac on August 20, 2012, 11:22:35 PM
of the Roscommon 2009 minor team, 4 of them have been lost to full time rugby - three of them currently contracted with Connacht, with one lad injured.
If the Roscommon under 21 team had those four players this year it could have got them over the line against Dublin in the final
And believe it or not, county Roscommon doesn't actually have ONE adult rugby club within the county
though rugby has got into most of the secondary schools - so they are making inroads
So if rugby can have this effect on a primarily GAA county like Roscommon, then what effect will increased exposure for rugby have elsewhere?
I personally think the GAA are very poor at promoting themselves and get poor value for money for the money put into coaching programmes
To be fair Creggs and Buccaneers are for all intensive purposes drawing as much from Roscommon as from Galway and Westmeath.
What does this mean?
Quote from: saffron sam2 on August 20, 2012, 11:30:58 PM
Quote from: Syferus on August 20, 2012, 11:27:13 PM
Quote from: neilthemac on August 20, 2012, 11:22:35 PM
of the Roscommon 2009 minor team, 4 of them have been lost to full time rugby - three of them currently contracted with Connacht, with one lad injured.
If the Roscommon under 21 team had those four players this year it could have got them over the line against Dublin in the final
And believe it or not, county Roscommon doesn't actually have ONE adult rugby club within the county
though rugby has got into most of the secondary schools - so they are making inroads
So if rugby can have this effect on a primarily GAA county like Roscommon, then what effect will increased exposure for rugby have elsewhere?
I personally think the GAA are very poor at promoting themselves and get poor value for money for the money put into coaching programmes
To be fair Creggs and Buccaneers are for all intensive purposes drawing as much from Roscommon as from Galway and Westmeath.
What does this mean?
Intents and purposes, lad!
Mr Greenan's thoughts on the subject
Greenan: GAA is 'prostituting' itself to IRFU
By John Fogarty
Tuesday, August 21, 2012
Former Ulster chairman Micheál Greenan claims the GAA has prostituted itself by giving consideration to make more stadiums available to another sport.
The Cavan man was reacting to Central Council's decision to ask Congress to make six grounds available to the IRFU for a potential bid to host the 2023 or 2027 Rugby World Cups.
He also predicts more GAA grounds, right down to the grassroots of the organisation, will be made available to foreign sports.
Greenan was a fervent opponent of Croke Park being made available for international rugby and soccer games in 2005. He believes he has been proven correct in his assessment back then that it was the "thin end of the wedge".
However, he said he won't be attempting to convince Congress delegates to vote against the motion in Derry next March.
"No matter what I do now I'm going to be wrong but as it transpired I was right. There's not much point in me trying to do something about it because the people in charge of the GAA are promoting it. We have prostituted ourselves and the bottom line is when you have prostituted yourself for money, the people who make the money are not the prostitutes but the pimps. We all know how much the GAA got for making Croke Park available but does anyone know how much the soccer or the rugby boys got out of it?
"Even if they did put out a number, would it be a true figure?"
Greenan maintains Congress's decision seven years ago has created a dangerous precedent.
He believes it is only a matter of time before more GAA pitches are used by rugby and soccer teams.
"It's not finished here. There'll be more grounds given up. In a few years time, we'll be trying to work local GAA fixtures around soccer and rugby fixtures.
"What happened was the thin end of the wedge and it's only getting off the ground now.
"I protested at the time because the GAA was selling out to rival sports. It wasn't about the opening of Croke Park — it was about the closing of it."
He insists the GAA have too many problems with football and hurling to allow another sport stage worldwide games in their grounds.
"With all due respects, we have too much to be concerned about in our own games than promoting other ones.
"In the minor hurling semi-final, a young Galway lad (Paul Killeen) got sent off for basically doing nothing. Yet in the senior game there were melees all over the place and nothing was done about it.
"To enter a melee is a sending off offence but I didn't see anyone sent off in that game. Rugby is the leading sport in Ireland and it's there partly because we have helped to promote it."
He makes great points but will no doubt be written off as a lunatic in many quarters. He was right about the Croker debate though, it was clearly the thin edge of the wedge but many denied that.
Quote"It's not finished here. There'll be more grounds given up. In a few years time, we'll be trying to work local GAA fixtures around soccer and rugby fixtures.
This is completely over the top.
I think a distinction should be made between stadia and pitches. Enormous expensive stadia filled once a year do nothing for local GAA fixtures.
Quote"In the minor hurling semi-final, a young Galway lad (Paul Killeen) got sent off for basically doing nothing. Yet in the senior game there were melees all over the place and nothing was done about it.
This is very true, as are the points made about fixtures etc. But these are entirely independent of rugby, stadia etc. The only thing you can say is that the attention and debate on rugby is diverting from the need to address these issues. But the likes of Micheál Greenan will always make a lot of noise about the rugby issue while largely remaining silent on these real issues.
Quote from: armaghniac on August 21, 2012, 09:57:24 AM
Quote"It's not finished here. There'll be more grounds given up. In a few years time, we'll be trying to work local GAA fixtures around soccer and rugby fixtures.
This is completely over the top.
I think a distinction should be made between stadia and pitches. Enormous expensive stadia filled once a year do nothing for local GAA fixtures.
Absolutely right. Pure over the top scaremongering.
I doubt there is a GAA club in the land whose pitches aren't in constant use between football, hurling, camogie and ladies football. I really can't see how any club that operates an underage system in any code would be looking at anything other than building new pitches, and not renting out what they have.
Mr. Greenan seems to have a great line in hysteria. This "wedge" of which he speaks - does he mean the decision of the members as to how we will use our assets to best advantage as we see it? To paraphrase an Irish parliamentarian being interviewed on the BBC - over here we call that democracy, Mr. Greenan.
Quote from: Declan on August 21, 2012, 08:41:14 AM
He insists the GAA have too many problems with football and hurling to allow another sport stage worldwide games in their grounds.
"With all due respects, we have too much to be concerned about in our own games than promoting other ones.
"In the minor hurling semi-final, a young Galway lad (Paul Killeen) got sent off for basically doing nothing. Yet in the senior game there were melees all over the place and nothing was done about it.
"To enter a melee is a sending off offence but I didn't see anyone sent off in that game. Rugby is the leading sport in Ireland and it's there partly because we have helped to promote it."
Look up non-sequitur in the dictionary and you'll find this. I mean . . . what?
I'd have sympathy for Greenan but the press tends to involve him to set a cat among pigeons, rather than foster debate. It's not helpful.
If this is going to happen, the only question is how much. All the GAA can do now is stop the IRFU low-balling them over the price. Donal Lenihan was on the radio last night talking about how much he'd like to see rugby in Killarney. It's time the GAA set a price.
And to do that, they could do worse than follow highorlow's example:
Quote from: highorlow on August 20, 2012, 07:41:42 PM
If a levy is applied to all club rugby games and Heiniken Cup games of say € 1 / ticket and passed onto the GAA between now and 2023 then I would be happy to run with it.
Someone from the GAA - other than Mr Greenan or, Christ alive, Seán Kelly, MEP, should get on the radio now and say the GAA would be delighted to do its piece for mother Erin. He or she should then suggest planning start immediately and, if the IRFU don't mind some friendly advice, a one Euro level on tickets into all games starting now would see the money being raised quite painlessly.
If the IRFU go along with that, fair enough and good luck to them. If not, when they go Béal Bochting in 2019 and complaining to the Minister and sliming the GAA, the GAA can respond that we were worn out telling you to start raising money in 2013 but would you listen? Indeed you would not. You've made your bed, lie in it.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 20, 2012, 10:55:17 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 20, 2012, 12:06:02 PM
Insular? Grow up gasúinín - it's you and bucks like you who touch the forelock to ye're rubby "betters" who have a problem.
It's as if ye're always looking for someone ( Brits/Yanks/Rubbyites) to say ye're great little ladeens altogether while independent thinkers like me ( and Cusack and the lads in 1884) don't give two sh1tes about those "someones" as we have belief and confidence in ourselves and our own.
The Country's curent "peachy state" was surely caused by arsholes who thought they were forward thinking internationalists and global players .
If and it's a big IF the GAA got a few million €s and got 3 or 4 of our grounds done up for free ( = you and I pay for it ::)) it might just be worth thinking about.
However the GAA's role is to foster our games not provide generic stadia for other sports to host international events.
Bring back "the ban" then. Anyone playing soccer or even going to a soccer match gets suspended. That kind of protectionism was always a roaring success in the past, wasn't it?
(PS: Cusack played rugby and cricket in his day too. Didn't seem to stop him from getting into Gaelic games, wouldn't you say?)
Where did you get your " bring back the ban" from my piece?
What a pity Central Council didn't devote as much time to real GAA issues , like refereeing standards, umpiring howlers, structures of competitions, club fixture messes , etc etc and et bloodyc. rather than assisting another sporting body?
Anyway my piece was a gripe at the people who think they've got it made if the Rubbyites and other perceived betters praise them and are forever trying to ingratiate themselves by doing something in the hope the "betters" will shower prise on them.
Why muddy the waters with talk of levies and such? It's none of our business how the IRFU raises the money to pay us. We charge for the use of our facilities. That's it. Why are we unilaterally bringing up the suggestion that this time it should be different to the previous arrangement? Why should it? €1.5 million or 50% of the gate, whichever is greater, for Croke Park. Proportional rates for the other stadiums. And those are 2006 prices.
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 21, 2012, 10:54:13 AM
Someone from the GAA - other than Mr Greenan or, Christ alive, Seán Kelly, MEP, should get on the radio now and say the GAA would be delighted to do its piece for mother Erin. He or she should then suggest planning start immediately and, if the IRFU don't mind some friendly advice, a one Euro level on tickets into all games starting now would see the money being raised quite painlessly.
If the IRFU go along with that, fair enough and good luck to them. If not, when they go Béal Bochting in 2019 and complaining to the Minister and sliming the GAA, the GAA can respond that we were worn out telling you to start raising money in 2013 but would you listen? Indeed you would not. You've made your bed, lie in it.
The problem is that the 'someone from the GAA' can't do that, or at least they'd be mad to do so. If (say) Liam O'Neill were to step forward and propose this, he'd be accused of pre-empting the decision of Congress. And they'd be right.
Quote from: neilthemac on August 20, 2012, 11:22:35 PM
of the Roscommon 2009 minor team, 4 of them have been lost to full time rugby - three of them currently contracted with Connacht, with one lad injured.
If the Roscommon under 21 team had those four players this year it could have got them over the line against Dublin in the final
2 of them lads weren't that hectic at Minor and would in all likelihood not have made the U21s anyway. A third lad always wanted to play the eggball game and his underage GAA prowess depended as much on large size as and great ability.
The lad who's injured could have made a good football player and is one loss we could have done without.
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 21, 2012, 09:23:36 AM
He makes great points but will no doubt be written off as a lunatic in many quarters. He was right about the Croker debate though, it was clearly the thin edge of the wedge but many denied that.
I will accept, seánie, that he has made points that are worthy of serious consideration but, if he is taken to be a lunatic by many, it's because of the way he puts his arguments across; it's a case of the medium overshadowing the message or something like that.
I think it's fair to say that most GAA people don't take him seriously; you have only to look at the comments of other posters here to see what I mean.
If he were to drop his "Armageddon is upon us" style of delivery, he might get more attention.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 21, 2012, 11:18:47 AM
Quote from: neilthemac on August 20, 2012, 11:22:35 PM
of the Roscommon 2009 minor team, 4 of them have been lost to full time rugby - three of them currently contracted with Connacht, with one lad injured.
If the Roscommon under 21 team had those four players this year it could have got them over the line against Dublin in the final
2 of them lads weren't that hectic at Minor and would in all likelihood not have made the U21s anyway. A third lad always wanted to play the eggball <a class="ktg6us78hf8vdu7" href="#">game</a> and his underage GAA prowess depended as much on large size as and great ability.
The lad who's injured could have made a good football player and is one loss we could have done without.
I assume the injured player you're on about is Shane Layden? I know the two of the other three are Jack Carthy and Daniel Qualter , is Connor Finn the third? Rugby losses out on a lot more players to GAA than the other way round e.g James Gill in Mayo. Anyway I think if the IRFU want to use the Stadia then fine but the GAA should be fair but stubborn about the amount of rent charged for their stadia. If the IRFU play the beal bocht card then GAA should be ready for the media whinge and backlash and be armed with the figures. Personally I'd like to see Ireland host the world cup but wouldn't want to see the GAA bounced into gving the IRFU a good deal just cause they want to maximise profits!
after reading a few articles about the way the rugby world cup is run and the bidding process (the hosts have to pay €100 million to the IRB for the privilege of hosting, plus the IRB get all advertising and broadcasts money), I think the only thing the GAA could really hope to get is a few stadia upgraded.
the world cup hosts have to cover all their costs from ticket sales. so the GAA couldn't hope to get much of a cut off that.
unless the GAA agreed a % of the ticket sales, if a profit was made.
it is definitely not the cash cow some people would make it out to be
What are you talking about? We get paid the going rate for the use of our facilities, the same as anyone else, otherwise no game. The IRB get their 100M, suppliers get their price, why would we be different?
Filthy lucre – surely the ideology of the Association rises above this! I fail to see any positives in this for the Association. Without doubt the Association is under threat in urban areas from the rising popularity of rugby. That is mainly down to the superior marketing and promotion of their game by their Union. I firmly believe that while some marketing is necessary for our game, its best selling point is its club structure rooted in the fabric of the community. This includes the facilities that are provided in nearly every village and town in Ireland. These clubs and facilities didn't appear overnight. Like most clubs, they came about over years of hard graft through volunteering and fund raising within the community. That same volunteering and fundraising vicariously extends to the larger county and provincial grounds. The opening up of Croke Park was sold as a "once off" for the greater good of the country and to allow us mature as a nation. Now its provincial grounds for a "once off"! What's next? County grounds, Club grounds, Club facilities all for a "once off"? For the sake of some short term financial gain, I don't think our generation have the right to ride roughshod over the past 125 years without giving the matter some serious thought and debate.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 21, 2012, 11:26:38 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 21, 2012, 09:23:36 AM
He makes great points but will no doubt be written off as a lunatic in many quarters. He was right about the Croker debate though, it was clearly the thin edge of the wedge but many denied that.
I will accept, seánie, that he has made points that are worthy of serious consideration but, if he is taken to be a lunatic by many, it's because of the way he puts his arguments across; it's a case of the medium overshadowing the message or something like that.
I think it's fair to say that most GAA people don't take him seriously; you have only to look at the comments of other posters here to see what I mean.
If he were to drop his "Armageddon is upon us" style of delivery, he might get more attention.
Yeah, fair point. He made good points but ruined them by going over the top with this ott stuff.
QuoteIt's not finished here. There'll be more grounds given up. In a few years time, we'll be trying to work local GAA fixtures around soccer and rugby fixtures.
for a world cup the IRFU could charge 90 euro a ticket, if so the GAA should demand 4 million a game for croker. milk the pr1cks dry
83,000*90=7,470,000
There would be more GAA grounds being used than actual Rugby grounds. Be great if it went ahead, whichever GAA stadiums are chosen will be in for a big redevelopment from it.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/oneill-backing-for-rugby-world-cup-puts-country-first-3203828.html
Who are 'the pr!cks'? I'd probably go to a few games.
[quote author=Greenabovethered link=topic=22076.msg1147398#msg1147398 date=1345548713 I firmly believe that while some marketing is necessary for our game, its best selling point is its club structure rooted in the fabric of the community. This includes the facilities that are provided in nearly every village and town in Ireland. [/quote]
Have we already given up on the Cities?
Around 2m people live in the 6 biggest cities in Ireland.
Would it be fair to say the GAA have only the hearts and minds of only 20% of those?
Then there are places like Athlone, Sligo and Dundalk where the dreaded 11 aside game holds sway on the majority of the townies not to mention certain types up North ::).
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 21, 2012, 12:42:33 PM
Who are 'the pr!cks'? I'd probably go to a few games.
in my opinion they are the IRFU. But thats only my opinion.
Quote from: deiseach on August 21, 2012, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 21, 2012, 10:54:13 AM
Someone from the GAA - other than Mr Greenan or, Christ alive, Seán Kelly, MEP, should get on the radio now and say the GAA would be delighted to do its piece for mother Erin. He or she should then suggest planning start immediately and, if the IRFU don't mind some friendly advice, a one Euro level on tickets into all games starting now would see the money being raised quite painlessly.
If the IRFU go along with that, fair enough and good luck to them. If not, when they go Béal Bochting in 2019 and complaining to the Minister and sliming the GAA, the GAA can respond that we were worn out telling you to start raising money in 2013 but would you listen? Indeed you would not. You've made your bed, lie in it.
The problem is that the 'someone from the GAA' can't do that, or at least they'd be mad to do so. If (say) Liam O'Neill were to step forward and propose this, he'd be accused of pre-empting the decision of Congress. And they'd be right.
Fair enough, but a GAA person needs to get on the airwaves and disabuse people of the notion that the GAA will wave its fees in the name of patriotism. Because I am sure that's the IRFU's plan - leave it to the 11th hour, go on Joe Duffy to say everything is in place bar the bag of groats for the Grab-All Association - oh Joe, whatever are we going to do?
I hope Ray Silke does it myself. He's a good GAA man, and was anti the opening of Croke Park. Well, not so much anti-it but definitely not cheerleading it. The word has to get across now that these are not the IRFU's stadia to dispose of, and that market price will be charged.
I wouldn't be forgetting the law of supply and demand when it comes to setting that price either.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 21, 2012, 11:02:26 AM
Where did you get your " bring back the ban" from my piece?
What a pity Central Council didn't devote as much time to real GAA issues , like refereeing standards, umpiring howlers, structures of competitions, club fixture messes , etc etc and et bloodyc. rather than assisting another sporting body?
Central Council already does deal with real GAA issues, like refereeing standards, umpiring howlers, structures of competitions, club fixture messes , etc etc and et bloody c. Do you seriously think that all of this will cease and all regular GAA business will stop just because a decision has to be made on the use of facilities by outside bodies?
QuoteAnyway my piece was a gripe at the people who think they've got it made if the Rubbyites and other perceived betters praise them and are forever trying to ingratiate themselves by doing something in the hope the "betters" will shower prise on them.
I assume you mean "praise". Somehow I think money is a more compelling motive than a couple of platitudes from the IRFU.
Speaking of money, the GAA fields in San Francisco have always been rented out to outside sports like rugby, lacrosse, ultimate and other events. The GAA in the city is as strong as ever and opening the fields up to outsiders hasn't done one bit of harm. In fact it wouldn't be possible to maintain the fields without outside usage because of the huge cost of irrigation.
Cant see how this wont go through whenever after all thats happened they agreed to let the Brits in
I don't see the problem. If the grounds are going to be lying empty anyway why the hell not open them for Rugby and generate a bit of cash for the GAA and the towns in which these games are held.
As for opening up Club Grounds etc. for a 'once off' well I wouldn't have any problem with this. It's not going to happen though. A regular club isn't going to be able to mobilise itself to easily to line out a new pitch, put up new posts etc. so stop acting as if the sky is about to fall in.
The GAA is still thriving and is based around community which is something very few other sporting organisations have, as was said previously we are in a good place and have nothing to fear from other sports in Ireland as our games are at least as good as soccer or rugby so everyone would need to stop being so scared and come out from the dark ages!!
Right on cue, the Heineken Cup looks like it's about to lose some of its fizz (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/22/premiership-top-14-breakaway-heineken-cup), at least as far as the IRFU would be concerned
Quote from: deiseach on August 22, 2012, 09:27:33 PM
Right on cue, the Heineken Cup looks like it's about to lose some of its fizz (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/22/premiership-top-14-breakaway-heineken-cup), at least as far as the IRFU would be concerned
Sabre rattling at best. The English and French annually whine at this time of the year and then it becomes more and more muted as all the Heineken Cup tickets sales and sponsorship money flows into their coffers.
They know full well a French-English cup wouldn't be anywhere close to as marketable as a European Cup. TV agreements especially dictate it's not going to happen. Some token concession and the RFU will skip and jump all the way to Twickenham like little school-girls.
I would be happy to see GAA grounds outside of Croke Park being used, but the biggest drawback will be the lack of corporate facilities at our grounds , also outside of Croke Park alcohol is not available at any ground and with major sponsors like Heiniken around that would have to change for this event. The IRFU and IRB make most of their money after TV rights from the corporate sector, would there be room around the proposed grounds for even the tented areas that were in the old Landesdown stadium to feed the masses, it will require major investment by either the rugby people or the state to upgrade our grounds . Will they also have to be all seated ? . Will Johnny Foreigner be happy to spend in excess of €150 or whatever currency we have in the future to sit in the open on a typical soft Irish summer's day so more covered seating will be needed adding to the upgrade cost. Personally I think the IRFU will probably end up sharing with the Scots for the event using the soccer stadiums there
Anyone who says the rise in popularity of rugby had anything whatosever to do with playing games in Croke Park hasnt a clue what they're talking about. Its completely and utterly down to Munster, Leinster and Ulster being really successful in beating the best in Europe and in them marketing their games properly.
A great current example is when you see this week, that's there's been far more promotion done by Leinster Rugby of their league match v Munster in 7 weeks time, with virtually no promotion by the GAA of the All Ireland semi-finals (with loads of tickets still available). You can understand why some people are scared of the threat of rugby.
Quote from: Hound on August 23, 2012, 08:46:25 AM
Anyone who says the rise in popularity of rugby had anything whatosever to do with playing games in Croke Park hasnt a clue what they're talking about. Its completely and utterly down to Munster, Leinster and Ulster being really successful in beating the best in Europe and in them marketing their games properly.
A great current example is when you see this week, that's there's been far more promotion done by Leinster Rugby of their league match v Munster in 7 weeks time, with virtually no promotion by the GAA of the All Ireland semi-finals (with loads of tickets still available). You can understand why some people are scared of the threat of rugby.
That point above is so on the money. I was saying it all last week prior to Kilkenny and Tipperary. Here you had two teams who have produced 3 epic All Ireland finals in the past 3 years meeting in an All Ireland Semi Final, which unlike the Final, is accessible to the general public with spare tickets in abundance. Tickets for Under 16 for example were €5. Students got a discount of €15 or €20. Yet there were 30,000 empty seats. Upper Hogan and Davin, not even open. Outrageuous. I was at the game myself and there seemed to be a massive crowd of people buying tickets on the day. Which begs the question, that surely mid week of the game the GAA had a reasonable idea that, for example, they were not going to break say the 60k barrier.
If the GAA couldnt market that game then they clearly can't market any game. All week people where I work were obsessing about the start of the Premier League (fair enough) and yet the GAA couldnt have had a better game to act somewhat as a distraction.. But no; it was a massive opportunity missed. Yes, the games sell themselves to the hardcore GAA followers as well as the genuine fans within the counties themselves involved in the game but to the ordinary joe they are just looking for any excuse to jump on a bandwagon (the Olympics being a case in point). What harm - some people need a push to arouse interest so why year in year out do the GAA seem hesitant to engage the general public in the marketing of our games at the height of the Summer. Is it a cost issue, I wonder? Or is it a resourcing issue? or is it something much worse.. Complacency.
If only 50k showed up for Tipp and Kilkenny it is probably safe to assume that there won't be much of a difference this weekend either. Shame.
Quote from: Syferus on August 22, 2012, 10:14:06 PM
Sabre rattling at best. The English and French annually whine at this time of the year and then it becomes more and more muted as all the Heineken Cup tickets sales and sponsorship money flows into their coffers.
They know full well a French-English cup wouldn't be anywhere close to as marketable as a European Cup. TV agreements especially dictate it's not going to happen. Some token concession and the RFU will skip and jump all the way to Twickenham like little school-girls.
The Celtic nations need the Heineken Cup far more than the English and French clubs do, and it is the audiences in England and France that bankroll the tournament. Yet you seem to think it is the Celtic nations who hold all the cards because . . . ?
Is the biggest issue not about the standard of the grounds? I haven't seen too many rugby world cup games with terracing all round except for a seated stand on one side. Also, how and where would most grounds accommodate a host of requests from international media not only for commentating space but ad hoc studios?
Does anywhere beyond croker and the refurbished casement fit?
Quote from: DuffleKing on August 23, 2012, 09:31:43 AM
Is the biggest issue not about the standard of the grounds? I haven't seen too many rugby world cup games with terracing all round except for a seated stand on one side. Also, how and where would most grounds accommodate a host of requests from international media not only for commentating space but ad hoc studios?
Does anywhere beyond croker and the refurbished casement fit?
TBH, I don't think this is a matter for the GAA to consider. The Association is being asked to provide a number of grounds and the onus is on the organisers to ensure that those grounds are up to the standards required.
Quote from: Hound on August 23, 2012, 08:46:25 AM
Anyone who says the rise in popularity of rugby had anything whatosever to do with playing games in Croke Park hasnt a clue what they're talking about. Its completely and utterly down to Munster, Leinster and Ulster being really successful in beating the best in Europe and in them marketing their games properly.
A great current example is when you see this week, that's there's been far more promotion done by Leinster Rugby of their league match v Munster in 7 weeks time, with virtually no promotion by the GAA of the All Ireland semi-finals (with loads of tickets still available). You can understand why some people are scared of the threat of rugby.
The success of Munster and Leinster in Europe is undoubtedly the single biggest factor in the rise of rugby in the past ten years. No question. However, you might be getting a bit carried to say it's to do with Munster and Leinster "beating the best in Europe" as much as it's "exploiting a competition that puts them at an unusual advantage over the notionally richer French and English." A change to the Heineken Cup, where the Irish teams had to qualify through Rabo placings, say, would deal rugby a far worse blow than falling out with the GAA over stadia.
To say the use of GAA stadia has not got "anything whatsoever" to do with the popularity of the provinces is pushing it a biteen too. The Munster v Leinster Heineken Cup Final was played before 82,000 in Croke Park a few years. That helped "market" that particular game, don't you think? Where would it have been played otherwise?
I'd be happy enough if the Six Nations games were still in Croke Park, actually. It's rugby's habit of using the stadia when they want them, like ringing Domino's for a pizza, that kind of sticks in my craw.
Quote from: haze on August 23, 2012, 09:05:16 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 23, 2012, 08:46:25 AM
Anyone who says the rise in popularity of rugby had anything whatosever to do with playing games in Croke Park hasnt a clue what they're talking about. Its completely and utterly down to Munster, Leinster and Ulster being really successful in beating the best in Europe and in them marketing their games properly.
A great current example is when you see this week, that's there's been far more promotion done by Leinster Rugby of their league match v Munster in 7 weeks time, with virtually no promotion by the GAA of the All Ireland semi-finals (with loads of tickets still available). You can understand why some people are scared of the threat of rugby.
That point above is so on the money. I was saying it all last week prior to Kilkenny and Tipperary. Here you had two teams who have produced 3 epic All Ireland finals in the past 3 years meeting in an All Ireland Semi Final, which unlike the Final, is accessible to the general public with spare tickets in abundance. Tickets for Under 16 for example were €5. Students got a discount of €15 or €20. Yet there were 30,000 empty seats. Upper Hogan and Davin, not even open. Outrageuous. I was at the game myself and there seemed to be a massive crowd of people buying tickets on the day. Which begs the question, that surely mid week of the game the GAA had a reasonable idea that, for example, they were not going to break say the 60k barrier.
If the GAA couldnt market that game then they clearly can't market any game. All week people where I work were obsessing about the start of the Premier League (fair enough) and yet the GAA couldnt have had a better game to act somewhat as a distraction.. But no; it was a massive opportunity missed. Yes, the games sell themselves to the hardcore GAA followers as well as the genuine fans within the counties themselves involved in the game but to the ordinary joe they are just looking for any excuse to jump on a bandwagon (the Olympics being a case in point). What harm - some people need a push to arouse interest so why year in year out do the GAA seem hesitant to engage the general public in the marketing of our games at the height of the Summer. Is it a cost issue, I wonder? Or is it a resourcing issue? or is it something much worse.. Complacency.
If only 50k showed up for Tipp and Kilkenny it is probably safe to assume that there won't be much of a difference this weekend either. Shame.
Why are rugby so good at the promotion of games? Well, maybe its the fact they can target games to get a crowd.
However, is it because their marketing departments are on an incentive based schemes, rolling contracts and need to deliver results?
Whereas the people in Croker are just happy to plod along half doing their job.
All you have to do is look at the pitiful adverts for this years GAA championship. They really are cringe worthy.
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 23, 2012, 11:21:32 AM
To say the use of GAA stadia has not got "anything whatsoever" to do with the popularity of the provinces is pushing it a biteen too. The Munster v Leinster Heineken Cup Final was played before 82,000 in Croke Park a few years. That helped "market" that particular game, don't you think? Where would it have been played otherwise?
It was spectacular. Because so many of the crowd at All-Ireland finals are neutrals and those who are not neutral tend to be dispersed all over the ground, it meant that Croke Park never looked as splendid as it did that day with great blocks of blue facing off against great blocks of red. Which is kinda sad.
Quote from: deiseach on August 23, 2012, 09:26:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on August 22, 2012, 10:14:06 PM
Sabre rattling at best. The English and French annually whine at this time of the year and then it becomes more and more muted as all the Heineken Cup tickets sales and sponsorship money flows into their coffers.
They know full well a French-English cup wouldn't be anywhere close to as marketable as a European Cup. TV agreements especially dictate it's not going to happen. Some token concession and the RFU will skip and jump all the way to Twickenham like little school-girls.
The Celtic nations need the Heineken Cup far more than the English and French clubs do, and it is the audiences in England and France that bankroll the tournament. Yet you seem to think it is the Celtic nations who hold all the cards because . . . ?
Because he's Syferus and like the Lewis Carroll character - the world is whatever Syferus wants it to be. ;D
GAA marketing has always been either non existent or a disaster.
The "second biggest competition" NFL/NHL is almost like a training manual of how not to run something and our greatest asset the Championships are looked on as " All we need to do is make fixtures" and they'll turn up.
Proper imaginitive marketing for last Sundays Tipp/Cats showdown would surely have brough in 70,000 at least.
Remember the Intl Rules was very well marketed during the noughties and were almost sell outs in Ireland anyway.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 23, 2012, 01:33:37 PM
Proper imaginitive marketing for last Sundays Tipp/Cats showdown would surely have brough in 70,000 at least.
Remember the Intl Rules was very well marketed during the noughties and were almost sell outs in Ireland anyway.
Fair point. I've been to a few of those games over the years yet I wouldn't miss it if it vanished. Hurling, on the other hand . . .
Quote from: deiseach on August 23, 2012, 11:46:17 AM
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 23, 2012, 11:21:32 AM
To say the use of GAA stadia has not got "anything whatsoever" to do with the popularity of the provinces is pushing it a biteen too. The Munster v Leinster Heineken Cup Final was played before 82,000 in Croke Park a few years. That helped "market" that particular game, don't you think? Where would it have been played otherwise?
It was spectacular. Because so many of the crowd at All-Ireland finals are neutrals and those who are not neutral tend to be dispersed all over the ground, it meant that Croke Park never looked as splendid as it did that day with great blocks of blue facing off against great blocks of red. Which is kinda sad.
A particular bug bear of mine!!! All this "Atmosphere at an All Ireland Final" guff. The atmosphere's crap! It's basically Half Neutral and then the other half between the 2 competing Counties. . . what a load of shite!!!!
Quote from: deiseach on August 23, 2012, 09:26:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on August 22, 2012, 10:14:06 PM
Sabre rattling at best. The English and French annually whine at this time of the year and then it becomes more and more muted as all the Heineken Cup tickets sales and sponsorship money flows into their coffers.
They know full well a French-English cup wouldn't be anywhere close to as marketable as a European Cup. TV agreements especially dictate it's not going to happen. Some token concession and the RFU will skip and jump all the way to Twickenham like little school-girls.
The Celtic nations need the Heineken Cup far more than the English and French clubs do, and it is the audiences in England and France that bankroll the tournament. Yet you seem to think it is the Celtic nations who hold all the cards because . . . ?
And where exactly is the assumption that I said the Celtic teams hold all the cards? Both sides hold more than enough for a status quo with a few concessions. The break-away talk is sensationalism on French and English clubs at the very, very best. Basic bargaining tactic - "sure if we don't get what we want we'll take our ball home with us..".
On the marketing thing. Rugby is easier to market because it's a professional game. The whole purpose of the season is to put on a series of games for the entertainment of the paying public. Everything else is secondary to that.
The GAA is different. The senior inter-county football and hurling Championships are not the be-all and end-all of the GAA. The fundamental purpose of the GAA is to provide an avenue whereby as many people who wish to play Gaelic Games can do so. The GAA is about participation at parish level first and foremost, and creating an entertainment spectacle is almost an accidental by-product of that - an event that happens much further down the chain from the atomic, club, structure of the Association. So we can't compare like with like. Professional games are ideally suited to marketing, because they're professional entities devoted to creating an entertainment product. The GAA is completely different.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 23, 2012, 01:33:37 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 23, 2012, 09:26:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on August 22, 2012, 10:14:06 PM
Sabre rattling at best. The English and French annually whine at this time of the year and then it becomes more and more muted as all the Heineken Cup tickets sales and sponsorship money flows into their coffers.
They know full well a French-English cup wouldn't be anywhere close to as marketable as a European Cup. TV agreements especially dictate it's not going to happen. Some token concession and the RFU will skip and jump all the way to Twickenham like little school-girls.
The Celtic nations need the Heineken Cup far more than the English and French clubs do, and it is the audiences in England and France that bankroll the tournament. Yet you seem to think it is the Celtic nations who hold all the cards because . . . ?
Because he's Syferus and like the Lewis Carroll character - the world is whatever Syferus wants it to be. ;D
GAA marketing has always been either non existent or a disaster.
The "second biggest competition" NFL/NHL is almost like a training manual of how not to run something and our greatest asset the Championships are looked on as " All we need to do is make fixtures" and they'll turn up.
Proper imaginitive marketing for last Sundays Tipp/Cats showdown would surely have brough in 70,000 at least.
Remember the Intl Rules was very well marketed during the noughties and were almost sell outs in Ireland anyway.
That's a very interesting point. I was at a few of those games in 1998 and 2000 and, with my hand on my heart, I have no idea who won any of the games I was at. All I know is by ten o'clock each night I was wheel-barrow drunk, which was pretty much the plan all along.
The International Rules games were ideal as a marketing product. Once-off exhibition games, nobody bothered about who won or lost but really good excuse for a few pints at a time when money was suddenly plentiful in Ireland. But as games, their relationship with football is the same as the relationship with hamburger and steak.
Quote from: Syferus on August 23, 2012, 04:17:39 PM
And where exactly is the assumption that I said the Celtic teams hold all the cards? Both sides hold more than enough for a status quo with a few concessions. The break-away talk is sensationalism on French and English clubs at the very, very best. Basic bargaining tactic - "sure if we don't get what we want we'll take our ball home with us..".
Let me get this straight. Almost all the revenue from the Heineken Cup comes from England and France. The rugby watching population in either of those countries is greater than that in the Pro12 countries put together. The clubs in England and France get a small proportion of their revenue from the Heineken Cup. Most clubs are not even in it in any given year. For the Celtic teams, it represents the vast majority of their revenue. The IRFU had figurative apoplexy when it was suggested that the Heineken Cup be made free-to-air. And yet, despite all that, you think the English and French clubs are happy to carry on the way things are with a few tweaks? The English and French own the bloody ball. If they walk off, it's game over.
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 23, 2012, 04:27:38 PM
On the marketing thing. Rugby is easier to market because it's a professional game. The whole purpose of the season is to put on a series of games for the entertainment of the paying public. Everything else is secondary to that.
The International Rules games were ideal as a marketing product. Once-off exhibition games, nobody bothered about who won or lost but really good excuse for a few pints at a time when money was suddenly plentiful in Ireland. But as games, their relationship with football is the same as the relationship with hamburger and steak.
Despite being primarily a local voluntary organisation the GAA should still be trying to maximise attendances at their big games as the money wouldn't do any harm at all. An extra 20,000 last Sunday would have generated around €600,000 which wouldn't go amiss.
There are only a total of around 85 Senior Inter County Championship games of which about 40% could be defined as "Big" games.
So it wouldn't take that much effort to market these to try and raise attendances.
Not much difference between Hambrger and Steak at the end of the day - they both get ate ...... and you know the rest... :D
Quote from: deiseach on August 23, 2012, 04:37:13 PM
Quote from: Syferus on August 23, 2012, 04:17:39 PM
And where exactly is the assumption that I said the Celtic teams hold all the cards? Both sides hold more than enough for a status quo with a few concessions. The break-away talk is sensationalism on French and English clubs at the very, very best. Basic bargaining tactic - "sure if we don't get what we want we'll take our ball home with us..".
Let me get this straight. Almost all the revenue from the Heineken Cup comes from England and France. The rugby watching population in either of those countries is greater than that in the Pro12 countries put together. The clubs in England and France get a small proportion of their revenue from the Heineken Cup. Most clubs are not even in it in any given year. For the Celtic teams, it represents the vast majority of their revenue. The IRFU had figurative apoplexy when it was suggested that the Heineken Cup be made free-to-air. And yet, despite all that, you think the English and French clubs are happy to carry on the way things are with a few tweaks? The English and French own the bloody ball. If they walk off, it's game over.
And there's almost no chance it will come to that point. You're trying to portray a situation where the Heineken Cup is in serious jeopardy when all that's happening is one side is jockeying for better position.
English and French teams have been whining for the best part of a decade - if they were serious they'd have done it by now. All they want is either more places for their teams or more of the money. The competition will be continuing with all parties involved regardless.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 23, 2012, 01:33:37 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 23, 2012, 09:26:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on August 22, 2012, 10:14:06 PM
Sabre rattling at best. The English and French annually whine at this time of the year and then it becomes more and more muted as all the Heineken Cup tickets sales and sponsorship money flows into their coffers.
They know full well a French-English cup wouldn't be anywhere close to as marketable as a European Cup. TV agreements especially dictate it's not going to happen. Some token concession and the RFU will skip and jump all the way to Twickenham like little school-girls.
The Celtic nations need the Heineken Cup far more than the English and French clubs do, and it is the audiences in England and France that bankroll the tournament. Yet you seem to think it is the Celtic nations who hold all the cards because . . . ?
Because he's Syferus and like the Lewis Carroll character - the world is whatever Syferus wants it to be. ;D
GAA marketing has always been either non existent or a disaster.
The "second biggest competition" NFL/NHL is almost like a training manual of how not to run something and our greatest asset the Championships are looked on as " All we need to do is make fixtures" and they'll turn up.
Proper imaginitive marketing for last Sundays Tipp/Cats showdown would surely have brough in 70,000 at least.
Remember the Intl Rules was very well marketed during the noughties and were almost sell outs in Ireland anyway.
I'd agree with the sentiments about the national league, but I've said it quite a few times on here, there is no point in trying to market a competition unless the competitors really want to win it. And the attitude of most counties to national league wins, even national league titles, is of disdain rather than success. Only when that attitude is fixed can you expect anything but the hardcore support to go along to watch.
Re marketing in general, I'll tell you a few things. The iRFu spend next to nothing on marketing the 6nations. They don't have to, it's going to sell out anyway. Their sponsors get as much exposure for their tie-ins as they can, and it might feel like marketing, but it's not... it's product advertising.
The amount of money spent on the autumn series varies, but it's not that significant.
At club level they market better than the GAA, but there's a very simple difference. Leinster an Munster are marketed at entire provinces. It's easy to create and blitz a marketing campaign across a population that big. Eventually you'll catch enough passive supporters to fill seats.
Kilkenny vs Tipp is not the same thing. Hurling is a great sport, blah, blah, blah, it's true. But the game is of significant interest only to two small population centres. For everyone else it's a passive or curious interest, made weaker again by the fact that those two teams inevitably play each other every year at some time in Croke Park. There's no novelty factor.
So while I'm sure there's plenty of bright ideas or marketing our games, they should be based against real demographical data. If the draw of an AI semi final isn't strong enough, it isn't strong enough.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 23, 2012, 10:09:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 23, 2012, 01:33:37 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 23, 2012, 09:26:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on August 22, 2012, 10:14:06 PM
Sabre rattling at best. The English and French annually whine at this time of the year and then it becomes more and more muted as all the Heineken Cup tickets sales and sponsorship money flows into their coffers.
They know full well a French-English cup wouldn't be anywhere close to as marketable as a European Cup. TV agreements especially dictate it's not going to happen. Some token concession and the RFU will skip and jump all the way to Twickenham like little school-girls.
The Celtic nations need the Heineken Cup far more than the English and French clubs do, and it is the audiences in England and France that bankroll the tournament. Yet you seem to think it is the Celtic nations who hold all the cards because . . . ?
Because he's Syferus and like the Lewis Carroll character - the world is whatever Syferus wants it to be. ;D
GAA marketing has always been either non existent or a disaster.
The "second biggest competition" NFL/NHL is almost like a training manual of how not to run something and our greatest asset the Championships are looked on as " All we need to do is make fixtures" and they'll turn up.
Proper imaginitive marketing for last Sundays Tipp/Cats showdown would surely have brough in 70,000 at least.
Remember the Intl Rules was very well marketed during the noughties and were almost sell outs in Ireland anyway.
I'd agree with the sentiments about the national league, but I've said it quite a few times on here, there is no point in trying to market a competition unless the competitors really want to win it. And the attitude of most counties to national league wins, even national league titles, is of disdain rather than success. Only when that attitude is fixed can you expect anything but the hardcore support to go along to watch.
Re marketing in general, I'll tell you a few things. The iRFu spend next to nothing on marketing the 6nations. They don't have to, it's going to sell out anyway. Their sponsors get as much exposure for their tie-ins as they can, and it might feel like marketing, but it's not... it's product advertising.
The amount of money spent on the autumn series varies, but it's not that significant.
At club level they market better than the GAA, but there's a very simple difference. Leinster an Munster are marketed at entire provinces. It's easy to create and blitz a marketing campaign across a population that big. Eventually you'll catch enough passive supporters to fill seats.
Kilkenny vs Tipp is not the same thing. Hurling is a great sport, blah, blah, blah, it's true. But the game is of significant interest only to two small population centres. For everyone else it's a passive or curious interest, made weaker again by the fact that those two teams inevitably play each other every year at some time in Croke Park. There's no novelty factor.
So while I'm sure there's plenty of bright ideas or marketing our games, they should be based against real demographical data. If the draw of an AI semi final isn't strong enough, it isn't strong enough.
You make a good argument but that bit is contradictory. If two teams inevitably playing each other is counter-productive to marketing then surely the Leinster-Munster rivalry has reached absolute saturation point. Also whilst Tipp and the Cats are smaller population centres it shouldn't be extremely hard to draw supporters into these teams given the fact that most other sides are either too poor to make it into this competition or are already defeated. I'm from Fermanagh/West Tyrone, an absolute hurling wasteland, but in the last few weeks I've had several conversations about Galway, Kilkenny and Tipp hurlers.
In short what the GAA need is provincial loyalities to start being a player in team support, one of the most effective strategies they could employ is to pay high-ranking GAA personalities to make a series of derogatory comments about a region's style of football, players or supporters. Following Spillane's "puke football" remarks most of the North would have support any team against Free state opposition and attitude which has since waned greatly.
Aggravate North-South, Jackeen-Culchie, West v East and most importantly of all Meath v Everyone relationships and you'll spike interest in gaelic games.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 23, 2012, 10:09:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 23, 2012, 01:33:37 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 23, 2012, 09:26:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on August 22, 2012, 10:14:06 PM
Sabre rattling at best. The English and French annually whine at this time of the year and then it becomes more and more muted as all the Heineken Cup tickets sales and sponsorship money flows into their coffers.
They know full well a French-English cup wouldn't be anywhere close to as marketable as a European Cup. TV agreements especially dictate it's not going to happen. Some token concession and the RFU will skip and jump all the way to Twickenham like little school-girls.
The Celtic nations need the Heineken Cup far more than the English and French clubs do, and it is the audiences in England and France that bankroll the tournament. Yet you seem to think it is the Celtic nations who hold all the cards because . . . ?
Because he's Syferus and like the Lewis Carroll character - the world is whatever Syferus wants it to be. ;D
GAA marketing has always been either non existent or a disaster.
The "second biggest competition" NFL/NHL is almost like a training manual of how not to run something and our greatest asset the Championships are looked on as " All we need to do is make fixtures" and they'll turn up.
Proper imaginitive marketing for last Sundays Tipp/Cats showdown would surely have brough in 70,000 at least.
Remember the Intl Rules was very well marketed during the noughties and were almost sell outs in Ireland anyway.
I'd agree with the sentiments about the national league, but I've said it quite a few times on here, there is no point in trying to market a competition unless the competitors really want to win it. And the attitude of most counties to national league wins, even national league titles, is of disdain rather than success. Only when that attitude is fixed can you expect anything but the hardcore support to go along to watch.
Re marketing in general, I'll tell you a few things. The iRFu spend next to nothing on marketing the 6nations. They don't have to, it's going to sell out anyway. Their sponsors get as much exposure for their tie-ins as they can, and it might feel like marketing, but it's not... it's product advertising.
The amount of money spent on the autumn series varies, but it's not that significant.
At club level they market better than the GAA, but there's a very simple difference. Leinster an Munster are marketed at entire provinces. It's easy to create and blitz a marketing campaign across a population that big. Eventually you'll catch enough passive supporters to fill seats.
Kilkenny vs Tipp is not the same thing. Hurling is a great sport, blah, blah, blah, it's true. But the game is of significant interest only to two small population centres. For everyone else it's a passive or curious interest, made weaker again by the fact that those two teams inevitably play each other every year at some time in Croke Park. There's no novelty factor.
So while I'm sure there's plenty of bright ideas or marketing our games, they should be based against real demographical data. If the draw of an AI semi final isn't strong enough, it isn't strong enough.
Spot on about the National League Wobbler. This "Day One" stuff they had earlier year about the League fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the thing. Pretending something is something it's not never works.
On the hurling. There were 22k at the Leinster Final, 40k at Galway vs Cork and now Galway are deeply unhappy about a 16k All-Ireland Final allocation. The marketing lesson there is that there is a big difference between an Event and a game. When you get big crowds at a game, it's because it's not a game anymore. It's become bigger than that. That was the thing with the Munster v Leinster Heineken Cup semi-final, and it seems to be happening next weekend with the Navy v Notre Dame game at Lansdowne Road. Food for thought for the marketeers.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 23, 2012, 10:09:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 23, 2012, 01:33:37 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 23, 2012, 09:26:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on August 22, 2012, 10:14:06 PM
Sabre rattling at best. The English and French annually whine at this time of the year and then it becomes more and more muted as all the Heineken Cup tickets sales and sponsorship money flows into their coffers.
They know full well a French-English cup wouldn't be anywhere close to as marketable as a European Cup. TV agreements especially dictate it's not going to happen. Some token concession and the RFU will skip and jump all the way to Twickenham like little school-girls.
The Celtic nations need the Heineken Cup far more than the English and French clubs do, and it is the audiences in England and France that bankroll the tournament. Yet you seem to think it is the Celtic nations who hold all the cards because . . . ?
Because he's Syferus and like the Lewis Carroll character - the world is whatever Syferus wants it to be. ;D
GAA marketing has always been either non existent or a disaster.
The "second biggest competition" NFL/NHL is almost like a training manual of how not to run something and our greatest asset the Championships are looked on as " All we need to do is make fixtures" and they'll turn up.
Proper imaginitive marketing for last Sundays Tipp/Cats showdown would surely have brough in 70,000 at least.
Remember the Intl Rules was very well marketed during the noughties and were almost sell outs in Ireland anyway.
I'd agree with the sentiments about the national league, but I've said it quite a few times on here, there is no point in trying to market a competition unless the competitors really want to win it. And the attitude of most counties to national league wins, even national league titles, is of disdain rather than success. Only when that attitude is fixed can you expect anything but the hardcore support to go along to watch.
Re marketing in general, I'll tell you a few things. The iRFu spend next to nothing on marketing the 6nations. They don't have to, it's going to sell out anyway. Their sponsors get as much exposure for their tie-ins as they can, and it might feel like marketing, but it's not... it's product advertising.
The amount of money spent on the autumn series varies, but it's not that significant.
At club level they market better than the GAA, but there's a very simple difference. Leinster an Munster are marketed at entire provinces. It's easy to create and blitz a marketing campaign across a population that big. Eventually you'll catch enough passive supporters to fill seats.
Kilkenny vs Tipp is not the same thing. Hurling is a great sport, blah, blah, blah, it's true. But the game is of significant interest only to two small population centres. For everyone else it's a passive or curious interest, made weaker again by the fact that those two teams inevitably play each other every year at some time in Croke Park. There's no novelty factor.
So while I'm sure there's plenty of bright ideas or marketing our games, they should be based against real demographical data. If the draw of an AI semi final isn't strong enough, it isn't strong enough.
Really? It couldn't have been a stronger AI Semi Final draw.... Best hurling team of all time taking on the only team of recent years capable of beating them... You wouldn't hear that if Real Madrid/Barca were in a Champions League Semi Final even allowing for the fact that there is little or no novelty factor as the two of them play each other umpteen times a year. It doesn't make any of the games between them any less compelling though regardless of how many times they meet.
I wonder is it a unique GAA thing that we don't like same teams meeting for a few years in a sequence. I know a lot of people who are sick of watching Cork and Kerry but I always wonder what harm is there in two of the best set of footballers in the country taking each other, maybe once or twice a year.
At the end of the day the GAA is complacent and when opportunity knocks as it did last week to get people talking and get more bums on seats in advance of the game they failed in my opinion.
Quote from: Syferus on August 23, 2012, 06:26:11 PM
And there's almost no chance it will come to that point. You're trying to portray a situation where the Heineken Cup is in serious jeopardy when all that's happening is one side is jockeying for better position.
English and French teams have been whining for the best part of a decade - if they were serious they'd have done it by now. All they want is either more places for their teams or more of the money. The competition will be continuing with all parties involved regardless.
The thrust of the Anglo-French proposal seems clear. They want the places allocated in the Heineken Cup to be based on performances in the Pro 12, something none (with the possible exception of the Welsh) of the Celtic countries want to happen. What form do you see any compromise taking?
A simple 'smart' membership card could help boost attendances and also track those people who need to be rewarded by their constant attendance at games.
If you go to league games or championship game then you scan your card and your attendance is logged. Credits are given for each game.
Then if your county gets to an All Ireland final you are put into a lottery for a ticket from your counties allocation. (if you have enough credits)
If your county doesn't get to the final you are still put into a lottery for neutral tickets.
Wouldn't be too hard to do. 2/3 scanners at each ground for league games (when there are lots of games on) and ensure more scanners for championship games.
I'm sick of people I know, who don't go to a game from one end of the year to the next, getting to go to All Ireland finals because they know someone on a county committee or some other position
Quote from: neilthemac on August 24, 2012, 11:40:23 AM
A simple 'smart' membership card could help boost attendances and also track those people who need to be rewarded by their constant attendance at games.
If you go to league games or championship game then you scan your card and your attendance is logged. Credits are given for each game.
Then if your county gets to an All Ireland final you are put into a lottery for a ticket from your counties allocation. (if you have enough credits)
If your county doesn't get to the final you are still put into a lottery for neutral tickets.
Wouldn't be too hard to do. 2/3 scanners at each ground for league games (when there are lots of games on) and ensure more scanners for championship games.
I'm sick of people I know, who don't go to a game from one end of the year to the next, getting to go to All Ireland finals because they know someone on a county committee or some other position
+1
You've some great ideas here.
Quote from: neilthemac on August 24, 2012, 11:40:23 AM
A simple 'smart' membership card could help boost attendances and also track those people who need to be rewarded by their constant attendance at games.
If you go to league games or championship game then you scan your card and your attendance is logged. Credits are given for each game.
Then if your county gets to an All Ireland final you are put into a lottery for a ticket from your counties allocation. (if you have enough credits)
If your county doesn't get to the final you are still put into a lottery for neutral tickets.
Wouldn't be too hard to do. 2/3 scanners at each ground for league games (when there are lots of games on) and ensure more scanners for championship games.
I'm sick of people I know, who don't go to a game from one end of the year to the next, getting to go to All Ireland finals because they know someone on a county committee or some other position
Is this a wind up because people choose not to use the season tickets or are you being serious?
very few people have season tickets, in relation to the number of people who attend games
this idea could be used in conjunction with, or seperate to the season ticket
Quote from: AFS on August 24, 2012, 05:43:40 PM
That idea reads exactly like what the Season Ticket already is.
I don't think it is.
Like neilthemac says, very few people have season tickets; many can't afford them and others may not be in a position to go to games on a regular basis. Those with season tickets can be entered in a draw simply by putting their names into a drum. In their case, there is no need for scanning technology of any sort.
I think neil is thinking of the ordinary punters who buy their tickets on the day when they go to games.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 25, 2012, 11:44:08 AM
Quote from: AFS on August 24, 2012, 05:43:40 PM
That idea reads exactly like what the Season Ticket already is.
I don't think it is.
Like neilthemac says, very few people have season tickets; many can't afford them and others may not be in a position to go to games on a regular basis. Those with season tickets can be entered in a draw simply by putting their names into a drum. In their case, there is no need for scanning technology of any sort.
I think neil is thinking of the ordinary punters who buy their tickets on the day when they go to games.
bingo
the GAA need to reward their most loyal customers and keep them coming back for more.
any forward thinking business would do it
supermarkets do it
mobile phone companies
fuel companies
as do hotel chains
There is merit in this idea, but it would be wrong not to acknowledge that the season tickets (although not perfect) have moved a substantial way towards improving the situation. If someone cannot afford the €75 for the season ticket then they can't afford to go to the All Ireland, while those who do not go to regular games will not accumulate much credit with any scheme. But the messing with scanners for season tickets suggests that there is still some way to go to get the infrastructure in place for this. There should be some scope for such a card to link with commercial use as well, maybe discounts on tickets if you patronise certain businesses.
Quote from: AFS on August 25, 2012, 04:52:43 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 25, 2012, 01:55:15 PM
There is merit in this idea, but it would be wrong not to acknowledge that the season tickets (although not perfect) have moved a substantial way towards improving the situation. If someone cannot afford the €75 for the season ticket then they can't afford to go to the All Ireland, while those who do not go to regular games will not accumulate much credit with any scheme. But the messing with scanners for season tickets suggests that there is still some way to go to get the infrastructure in place for this. There should be some scope for such a card to link with commercial use as well, maybe discounts on tickets if you patronise certain businesses.
That's where I'm coming from. I don't understand what group of people that idea is supposed to help. If you're a regular attender then the season ticket significantly reduces costs, and if you're not a regular attender then what loyalty do you expect to have rewarded?
Having a season ticket doesn't improve your chances of getting an All-Ireland ticket. Your man's proposal would reward a loyal
customer patron by increasing his chances of getting one.
Quote from: AFS on August 25, 2012, 04:52:43 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 25, 2012, 01:55:15 PM
There is merit in this idea, but it would be wrong not to acknowledge that the season tickets (although not perfect) have moved a substantial way towards improving the situation. If someone cannot afford the €75 for the season ticket then they can't afford to go to the All Ireland, while those who do not go to regular games will not accumulate much credit with any scheme. But the messing with scanners for season tickets suggests that there is still some way to go to get the infrastructure in place for this. There should be some scope for such a card to link with commercial use as well, maybe discounts on tickets if you patronise certain businesses.
That's where I'm coming from. I don't understand what group of people that idea is supposed to help. If you're a regular attender then the season ticket significantly reduces costs, and if you're not a regular attender then what loyalty do you expect to have rewarded?
I live in Dublin and support Mayo and I would find it impractical to travel to all their league matches. Home matches are fine, weather permitting, but some away matches could involve long return journeys to places maybe 150+ miles away. (Cork, KIllarney, Ballyshannon for example or even a home game in Crossmolina.)
As a season ticket is both county and code specific, it would be of no use to me if I wanted to see a game where Mayo would not be involved. For example, I was at the Leinster hurling final this year and paid the full whack for my ticket. Over the years, I have attended far more IC games (in both codes) where Mayo have not been involved than ones where they have been.
IMO, the scheme proposed by neilthemac is similar in concept to the National Lottery- there are a finite amount of prizes (AI tickets) on offer and every punter who pays into an IC game has an outside chance of winning one. I see nothing wrong with that.
QuoteHaving a season ticket doesn't improve your chances of getting an All-Ireland ticket.
It gets you an AI ticket, if your county are there (which I'll admit is largely hypothetical for Armagh folk). It should give you a shot at a ticket if you minors are playing, but does not.
I take Lar Naparka's point about other games (although the season ticket get you in free to other league games, handy sometimes for games on Saturday night with your own game on Sunday). If people have season tickets with barcodes and accounts, it is not clear why these cannot be used in some way if someone wants to head along today, for instance.
I would restrict admission to AI finals to members and issue tickets against membership numbers.
Quote from: AFS on August 27, 2012, 12:29:43 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 26, 2012, 12:40:56 PM
I live in Dublin and support Mayo and I would find it impractical to travel to all their league matches. Home matches are fine, weather permitting, but some away matches could involve long return journeys to places maybe 150+ miles away. (Cork, KIllarney, Ballyshannon for example or even a home game in Crossmolina.)
As a season ticket is both county and code specific, it would be of no use to me if I wanted to see a game where Mayo would not be involved. For example, I was at the Leinster hurling final this year and paid the full whack for my ticket. Over the years, I have attended far more IC games (in both codes) where Mayo have not been involved than ones where they have been.
IMO, the scheme proposed by neilthemac is similar in concept to the National Lottery- there are a finite amount of prizes (AI tickets) on offer and every punter who pays into an IC game has an outside chance of winning one. I see nothing wrong with that.
Right, so it's about regular neutral attenders (attendees?). And more specifically, about regular neutral attenders that don't regularly attend their own county's matches. I didn't catch that from the initial post. To be honest, excepting journalists and a few lads from down the country now living in the shadow of Croke Park, I don't think many people really meet the above description. Certainly not enough to operate a specific scheme for them. Additionally, any scheme along those lines would seem to discriminate against those that can't be regular neutral attenders because of their commitments to their local club scene. I wouldn't be comfortable with that.
Actually, I'm not thinking of
neutral spectators only. I have
all who attend IC matches in mind.
(I never had a season ticket so I'm relying on what others told me and on gaa.ie for information about them.)
AFAIK, only those who have attended 60% of games and whose counties reach the AI final are guaranteed tickets. That cuts down the number who are eligible to a very small percentage of those who have season tickets. In turn, those who actually have tickets to begin with are only an equally small percentage of spectators at any given match.
Throw in the fact that such tickets have to be purchased online and that a lot of people may not have €85 or so to pay upfront and may not be able to attend 60+% of their county's matches and the number who will be guaranteed a chance to get an AI ticket will be very small indeed.
I am thinking of a lottery system where a set number of AI tickets would be on offer. They would not be given away free but merely made available for purchase to the lottery winners. Each admission ticket to a competitive IC game would be entered in the draw so the more games a punters attend, the more chances they have to come up lucky.