Having become Ulster Champions, and reached the All-Ireland semis, what should Donegal do now?
Revert to the traditional 1-3-3-2-3-3 formation?
Build on the defensive tactic? Strengthen it by deploying a 1-5-6-2-1-0? Maybe even go to a 1-6-6-1-1-0?
After being hailed as the Redeemer for the past year in his native Donegal, the words 'Jesus Christ' spat at Jim Mc Guinness yesterday, however, carried a whole different meaning.
I suspect he has the Donegal lads training already on how to build a human wall on the goal line, lying horizontally on top of each other -- he's already launched an appeal for anyone over 20-stone, anyone!
I suspect Donegal will attempt something similar next year again, but they may tweak it by leaving two or three up front instead of just one. You do need to score. I suspect he may continue with the physical conditioning, as I think Dublin wore them down yesterday a bit. In the first half Donegal were winning the physical battles, in the second Dublin were.
From Jimmy's perspective he'll be saying they were close, and they were. And if they had made the final Kerry would not relish facing them either.
So of I were him I'd be trying to up our scoring production just a little, and also trying to lift our physical fitness to the level of Dublin, Kildare etc. (I know they beat Kildare, but that was nick or nothing between them and Kildare were fairly banged up injury wise).
The one thing is that it should stop too many clones of Donegal, because it's not seen as the silver bullet. Tyrone's approach was seen in that light which is why we had Westmeath, Offaly (sadly) and a host of other teams doing the 'made in Taiwan' version.
I agree, I'd say JMcG will stick with the gameplan for the most part - it's not pretty to watch but he won't (and shouldn't) care if they continue winning. I presume he will try to maintain the soldity in defence while creating (and taking) more scoring chances.
I'd say there's not too many teams who will fancy playing them next year.
Fair play to Jimmy McGuinness, him and the team have given the Donegal supporters their best summer in a long time.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 29, 2011, 10:00:27 AM
From Jimmy's perspective he'll be saying they were close, and they were. And if they had made the final Kerry would not relish facing them either.
If anyone had asked Donegal back in January how would they like to win Div 2 of the NFL , the Ulster Final and get within a kick of the ball of getting to the all Ireland they'd have snapped the hand, arm and everything else off you.
Once again the need to have forwards in Gaelic football was shown yesterday ( thankfully) as no matter what defensive system you have ... you won't win big games unless you get ball up to forwards ( who have to be up there in the first place).
Rugby league would be an option.
Quote from: Bingo on August 29, 2011, 11:10:56 AM
Rugby league would be an option.
olympic handball could be another. terrible to see michael murphy being reduced to a div 11 junior e footballer.
Jim McGuinness knows no other form of football than the 13 man defense, so expect more of the same. If Donegal went man for man this year they would have lost to Antrim in the first round. Donegal are avarage footballers playing a system of football which has made super stars out of some of their defenders. Irony GAA style.
The GAA may have to look at only so many players being allowed to come back onto their own half or something, because I saw kids turn their back on the game yesterday in Sligo and watch the Utd game, and that's a worry. The GAA cannot allow more Jim McGuinness types to destroy our game!
But introducing a few more crazy rules like Jarlath Burns suggested yesterday is not the answer surely, as Harte said, its just silly to have the referee countign fouls etc. One simple rule very easily implemented and easily enforced is the 'back-court' rule in basketball, I think its still in place in the 7s game?? i.e. when the ball passes the halfway line, it cant come back.
As a Derry man, this defensive and cynical system of play has already frustrated me no end, however i think it has to be pointed out that Donegal's defenders are all outstanding players. To suggest otherwise shows your lack of knowldege. Other teams may copy the syatme but you must have the players to implement it. Frank McGlynn, Neil McGee, Anthony Thompson, Karl Lacey and Kevin Cassidy would walk onto most county teams, Jesus i wish we had 2 of them!
There is no easy solution to it, if there was the system they use wouldn't be as effective.
Also, it should be worth noting that only a small % of teams apply such a system, so should every team be punished by rule changes that may restrict their own entertaining style because we want to stop a system like Donegal.
One of the best solutions for other teams to beat this system on a regular basis. If Donegal repeat this system next year, they'll get a beating some day using it and players will lose faith it in to a certain extent. This year the players had a hunger to use and stay with the system plus they had players suited to it. That might not always been the case. A team will have to be in super shape to use it and thankfully alot of teams wouldn't be in a position to do us.
Quote from: EagleLord on August 29, 2011, 11:48:29 AM
But introducing a few more crazy rules like Jarlath Burns suggested yesterday is not the answer surely, as Harte said, its just silly to have the referee countign fouls etc. One simple rule very easily implemented and easily enforced is the 'back-court' rule in basketball, I think its still in place in the 7s game?? i.e. when the ball passes the halfway line, it cant come back.
So does that mean that the other team can't put the ball back into your half ;D
Refs can't count four steps so how the hell will they keep count of the number of fouls ?
Abolish the fcukin handpass (or restrict it to you get a handpass can't play it off with your hand) , coach players in kicking the effin
FOOTball and attack at pace not 40 sideways passes to get to the half way line as the other team all run back to block the 45 metre line.
I'd expect Jim Mcguinness to do the same again next year with a few minor tweaks .
the tweaks being come changes and ideas on how and when to attack.
Jim is like an American football coach now at this stage, he will no doubt try to create 'set plays' that Donegal can 'run' at certain times and win scores.
I would suspect that he might look for a more potent freetaker as Murphy and McFadden are not as good from 40 metres out...If donegal had Cluxton yesterday they would have won.
Durkan a great keeper and shot stopper but a GK that can kick 45's and more would seem to be the new desired comodity in football right now and for the near future.
...also reckon that Donegal will not be as copetitive next season - the fatigue their bodies will have to feel after such a season of three hour traning sessions and the amount of work they take to keep up such performances- well the body can hardly take that for too long....
something will have to give, if not next seaosn then def the season afterwards, but I suspect that half of them will be inj if they all continue training from Christmas again...
McGuinness is smart, so prob will know to rest them until well into the NFL
The ten meanest defences in this year's Championship, by average score conceded per game:
Donegal 9.50
Kildare 11.71
Dublin 12.20
Galway 13.00
Kerry 13.60
Longford 13.67
Mayo 14.20
Meath 14.25
Wexford 14.40
Cork 14.60
This was the first year Donegal have used that defensive system...wait until they perfect it
Quote from: Hardy on August 29, 2011, 03:36:10 PM
The ten meanest defences, midfields, and attacks in this year's Championship, by average score conceded per game:
Donegal 9.50
Kildare 11.71
Dublin 12.20
Galway 13.00
Kerry 13.60
Longford 13.67
Mayo 14.20
Meath 14.25
Wexford 14.40
Cork 14.60
Fixed that for you Hardy! ;)
It would have been interesting to see how Kerry would have coped with that type of defense.
Donegal have to find find some way of having Murphy stay up in the forward line, its a waste having one of the best forwards in the country stuck somewhere between his own half back line and midfield. If Donegal could switch between an orthodox formation and the way they play now during a game it would cause all types of confusion with the opposition.
Kerry didn't cope too well in 2003 & one of the reasons why Donegal didn't succeed yesterday was they didn't have forwards like Peter Canavan,Steven O'Neill.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 29, 2011, 12:22:24 PM
I'd expect Jim Mcguinness to do the same again next year with a few minor tweaks .
the tweaks being come changes and ideas on how and when to attack.
Jim is like an American football coach now at this stage, he will no doubt try to create 'set plays' that Donegal can 'run' at certain times and win scores.
I would suspect that he might look for a more potent freetaker as Murphy and McFadden are not as good from 40 metres out...If donegal had Cluxton yesterday they would have won.
Durkan a great keeper and shot stopper but a GK that can kick 45's and more would seem to be the new desired comodity in football right now and for the near future.
Durkan can kick 45's with the best of them. He plays full forward with his club and takes all the long range free's and 45's. I seen him playing against Bundoran this year in the championship in Donegal and he scored 7 or 8 points that day from outside the forty and a few of them were outside the fifty
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 29, 2011, 03:03:34 PM
...also reckon that Donegal will not be as copetitive next season - the fatigue their bodies will have to feel after such a season of three hour traning sessions and the amount of work they take to keep up such performances- well the body can hardly take that for too long....
something will have to give, if not next seaosn then def the season afterwards, but I suspect that half of them will be inj if they all continue training from Christmas again...
McGuinness is smart, so prob will know to rest them until well into the NFL
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 29, 2011, 03:03:34 PM
...also reckon that Donegal will not be as copetitive next season - the fatigue their bodies will have to feel after such a season of three hour traning sessions and the amount of work they take to keep up such performances- well the body can hardly take that for too long....
something will have to give, if not next seaosn then def the season afterwards, but I suspect that half of them will be inj if they all continue training from Christmas again...
McGuinness is smart, so prob will know to rest them until well into the NFL
i really enjoy your posts. they have a great level of insight in them. however...
distance runners, especially marathon runners and even more so ultra marathon runners, put huge mileage on the clock weekly and constantly, being in training all the time (including cross-training) without the body giving out. it's not a case of impossible to achieve the level of fitness mcguinness wants to implement his strategy, a fair few of those players just don't have enough training under them. building up that speed endurance and overall endurance takes more time than the year they've had. building on their training regimes, i'd expect those donegal players to be well able to manage the full 70mins next year. if they kept training they'll be able to go for even longer. it's not just about speed endurance either to control the lactate build and the improve recovery times, overall muscle endurance is important too, hence they ran out of gas. none of those lads are anywhere near the fitness they can achieve. with enough years of training under them, they'd be able to play 2 games like that back-to-back. it's very achieveable i think. currently, it's a 35mins intense fartleks session, with a break to refuel and stretch, followed by another 35mins fartleks session. any experienced runner will tell you the same. you simply need to train properly and for long enough to achieve the goal you have. i def think we'll see more of the same next year. but i would expect them to have the legs to be able to push on and attack teams in the last 20mins. i think that's what he'll try to do.
Donegal can do all the ultra marathons they like it wont change the one salient fact they will never win an All-Ireland trained by Mc Guinness.
And you can quote me on that.
Quote from: INDIANA on August 29, 2011, 08:36:24 PM
Donegal can do all the ultra marathons they like it wont change the one salient fact they will never win an All-Ireland trained by Mc Guinness.
And you can quote me on that.
they don't need anything near ultra level, they need to build on their fitness, not drop off and lose it. if he does remain the man in charge, which is fairly likely, i'd expect him to address the fitness failings yesterday. one things for sure, they won't be less fit. i'm guessing that he'll try to improve 2 things. the ability to attack and compete all over the field and the fitness capacity to allow them to do this and wear teams down. if he continues to want them to play an attacking running possession game (edit: once we have possession i mean, we'll still be quite a defensive outlook i reckon), to do that for the full 70 he needs them fitter.
not to everyone's tastes for sure, but that's the way it's going to pan out i think.
fartleks, now that's a word you dont see enough of.
running and farting at the same time.
at speed.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 29, 2011, 08:52:10 PM
Because of this, for me it'll be more likely than not that this Donegal team will be a one-season wonder, the same way the likes of Monaghan, Fermanagh and Down have been in the last few years (though the jury is still out on Down).
Would go along with this, next year will be more difficult. A couple of pacy half forwards who can buy into this system and another midfielder are needed already plus a few players were maybe giving it one last push this year, the likes of Hegarty,Toye, Cassidy who may not be back next year.
Murphy should have been switched into FF a few times and a few Hail Marys rained in on him as over the last half hour Donegal barely had a shot never mind a score.
Quote from: Cde on August 29, 2011, 06:46:03 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 29, 2011, 12:22:24 PM
I'd expect Jim Mcguinness to do the same again next year with a few minor tweaks .
the tweaks being come changes and ideas on how and when to attack.
Jim is like an American football coach now at this stage, he will no doubt try to create 'set plays' that Donegal can 'run' at certain times and win scores.
I would suspect that he might look for a more potent freetaker as Murphy and McFadden are not as good from 40 metres out...If donegal had Cluxton yesterday they would have won.
Durkan a great keeper and shot stopper but a GK that can kick 45's and more would seem to be the new desired comodity in football right now and for the near future.
Durkan can kick 45's with the best of them. He plays full forward with his club and takes all the long range free's and 45's. I seen him playing against Bundoran this year in the championship in Donegal and he scored 7 or 8 points that day from outside the forty and a few of them were outside the fifty
Wow.
I bet he was the furthest forward too.
Quote from: cadence on August 29, 2011, 08:29:04 PM
distance runners, especially marathon runners and even more so ultra marathon runners, put huge mileage on the clock weekly and constantly, being in training all the time (including cross-training) without the body giving out. it's not a case of impossible to achieve the level of fitness mcguinness wants to implement his strategy, a fair few of those players just don't have enough training under them. building up that speed endurance and overall endurance takes more time than the year they've had. building on their training regimes, i'd expect those donegal players to be well able to manage the full 70mins next year. if they kept training they'll be able to go for even longer. it's not just about speed endurance either to control the lactate build and the improve recovery times, overall muscle endurance is important too, hence they ran out of gas. none of those lads are anywhere near the fitness they can achieve. with enough years of training under them, they'd be able to play 2 games like that back-to-back. it's very achieveable i think. currently, it's a 35mins intense fartleks session, with a break to refuel and stretch, followed by another 35mins fartleks session. any experienced runner will tell you the same. you simply need to train properly and for long enough to achieve the goal you have. i def think we'll see more of the same next year. but i would expect them to have the legs to be able to push on and attack teams in the last 20mins. i think that's what he'll try to do.
Interesting enough that Cadence.
This may prove to be true, However all the stamina training in the world does not take into account the hits that you get in Gaelic football. You don't get them in hurling. Only American football, ice hockey and rugby will you get the same kind of physical contact and these other sports lads wear some element of body armour/pads.
Taking a lot of hits takes it out of you.
IMO Donegal were up there as the fittest team in the country – having eclipsed Kildare and Dublin – but they had to be in order to play that kind of game and last the 70 minutes.
If it was just running then Donegal wouldn't have the problem, its how they use their bodies to absorb runners and tackles etc. This will cause or accelerate injury more than ordinary running as a fatigued body shipping a tackle can more easily be put off balance and injure an ankle, knee or hamstring etc.
We are comparing these Gaelic footballers to professional athletes also. Our lads don't have the luxury of being able to train, rest and get supplemental foods paid for them etc. We have a lad doing his days work, driving to training, doing a 2-3 hour session and heading home to be in bed by midnight if he's lucky – before he gets up early to head to work again.
It doesn't even have to be physical work these days, its just the constant strain on the body with no lengthy period of rest for the body or worse – the brain.
It may not be rocket science, but when you are a player, your minds always flicks back to training, games and football. Its worse for managers though in that regard !
I have said over the last number of years that Tyrone would not win back to back All Irelands for the fatigue/injury reason. Their style of play demands too much of the body to sustain it over any more than a season – unless you have a massive and talented squad.
Even Kerry cant sustain consecutive seasons thee days – and their style of play is to use the ball more than the likes of Donegal, Dublin, Cork etc
This is all my own opinion, but while I think Donegal will be there or thereabouts again next year (and I have said for the past 6 or 7 years that Donegal had the talent to win Ulster and maybe more) it would surprise me if they don't have problems with injuries etc that will lessen their effectiveness.
I could be wrong and frequently am !!
Quote from: Cde on August 29, 2011, 06:46:03 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 29, 2011, 12:22:24 PM
I'd expect Jim Mcguinness to do the same again next year with a few minor tweaks .
the tweaks being come changes and ideas on how and when to attack.
Jim is like an American football coach now at this stage, he will no doubt try to create 'set plays' that Donegal can 'run' at certain times and win scores.
I would suspect that he might look for a more potent freetaker as Murphy and McFadden are not as good from 40 metres out...If donegal had Cluxton yesterday they would have won.
Durkan a great keeper and shot stopper but a GK that can kick 45's and more would seem to be the new desired comodity in football right now and for the near future.
Durkan can kick 45's with the best of them. He plays full forward with his club and takes all the long range free's and 45's. I seen him playing against Bundoran this year in the championship in Donegal and he scored 7 or 8 points that day from outside the forty and a few of them were outside the fifty
Perhaps the next time Donegal are playing Bundoran Durcan could take all the fress.
Donegal need to thank Gallagher, Hegarty, Toye and Cassidy for all the effort they have put in over the years. They need to find a midfield partnership, bulk up mchugh and move him to 11 and keep murphy at full forward. However, no matter what they do they wont be back in all AI semi final next year.
The pub?
Quote from: Jinxy on August 30, 2011, 11:34:26 AM
The pub?
I'd say that's a good bet. They'll celebrate the Ulster title properly now. There'll be a few heffers bulled round Letterkenny in the coming weekends.
Some hysterical over reaction to Donegals tactics, to understand them people need to look at the bigger picture. After all Tyrone we crucified when they appeared with their blanked defense now coming up on ten years of they are lauded, well donegal are at the start of that journey. People say we had no Plan B and indeed we did not have a Plan B but as a proud Donegal supporter I am not to worried about that this year due to the fact that we had a Plan A, the last good few years Donegal teams did not even have a Plan A. Not having a Plan A all came to a head in Crossmaglen Last year and the tanking we got from Armagh, coming out of that game we really feared that we would have gotten regulated to Division 3 in the coming year, in fact in the last few years Donegal have been a bottom half team if not a bottom 8 team. Donegal opened their league with Sligo it was even said on this forum that this would be the regulation match :-)
There was never any pride shown in the jersey, there was never any excitement for our supporters, now that is all changed there is huge pride in the jersey from the players to the supporters and such a buzz around the county this past few weeks it really has promoted the GAA in our county, after all we are mostly a soccer county and also Rugby getting more of a foothold as well. At least the focus is on the Donegal GAA team and all positive in this county, surly this is for the betterment of our games. Hey winning ugly and the ultra blanket defense does not still totally well with us Donegal supporters but we are also very realistic after horrendous few years we did have, we know we had to start some where and defense is the best place to start, but with the defense now in place and we are getting into the habit of winning again expect to see donegals game evolve more, and expect to see some more attacking football, when its called for and defense when that is called for, this is Jims next goal the next stage in his 5 year plan.
We are not naive in Donegal and I am sure the rest of the country is the same to know that playing with just a blanket defense will not win you an all irelands, and that was shown on Sunday, Our set up this year was done to achieve a few goals:
1. Get Donegal back to winning ways
2. Get pride back in the jersey, get the players to want to play for their county.
3. Get some belief back into the team that they can compete.
These goals were well an truly achieved. But this is only the start of the journey, Jim knows and has said publicy that we need to shore up a few position to as to make us a more attacking team and to go forward more and take our scores, this will happen, and mark my words, Donegal will be in for a shout for an all ireland title with in the next five years.
At the start of the season I would have take the following: 1. To stay in Div 2 and not get regulated; 2. Finally get a win in the ulster championship after 3 years of getting beat at home, wow were my expectations well and truly shattered. Div 2 Champs, Ulster Champs and to make it to a all ireland semi, dont care what anyone say but any other supporter from any other county would have taken the arm off some one for that kind of season at the start of the year.
Pat Spillane and the likes would almost just rather see the same team complete each year for the all ireland, surly that is not good for our games, just look at the hurling its the same few teams each year. Surly it better that these top 3 teams are challenged and made to work for their all irelands.
All I can say watch this space from a proud Donegal Supporter.
Quote from: Goldengreen on August 30, 2011, 12:20:02 PM
After all Tyrone we crucified when they appeared with their blanked defense now coming up on ten years of they are lauded, well donegal are at the start of that journey...
Fair dues there Goldengreen, you've every right to be extremely proud of your team.
But, you're incorrect in that statement above (to equate our system with yours): at no time in our games at any stage of our evolutionary cycle did we utilise the single solitary attacker in the oppostion half for our kickouts as a strategic ploy, never.
If what we employed was a 'blanket defence', then your lads were employing a 'fire blanket defence'.
The ten meanest defences by average score conceded - League and Championship combined.
Longford 10.83
Donegal 11.43
Leitrim 11.55
Kildare 12.21
Roscommon 12.77
Fermanagh 12.90
Kerry 13.08
Louth 13.60
Tyrone 14.00
Wexford 14.17
Maybe next year, after they go ahead in a match, they could get the keeper to hoof every ball out of the stadium. Eventually they will run out of footballs and the ref will have to declare them winners.
End justifying means, within the rules and all that.
Picking on Longford now?
Quote from: Hardy on August 30, 2011, 01:57:18 PM
Picking on Longford now?
I didn't realise this had been tried before.
Relegation Golden Green Relegation !!!! ;D
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 30, 2011, 01:19:19 PM
Quote from: Goldengreen on August 30, 2011, 12:20:02 PM
After all Tyrone we crucified when they appeared with their blanked defense now coming up on ten years of they are lauded, well donegal are at the start of that journey...
Fair dues there Goldengreen, you've every right to be extremely proud of your team.
But, you're incorrect in that statement above (to equate our system with yours): at no time in our games at any stage of our evolutionary cycle did we utilise the single solitary attacker in the oppostion half for our kickouts as a strategic ploy, never.
If what we employed was a 'blanket defence', then your lads were employing a 'fire blanket defence'.
Yea let me correct that Fear ón Srath Bán, agree with you 100% there, what i meant was more equating the critriciam Tyrone got at the time to now being lauded. I like that 'fire blanket defence' good description and that is what we were, Tyrone had the Sean Cavanaghs that Donegal does not have yet but give it time.
Quote from: sheamy on August 30, 2011, 11:49:37 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 30, 2011, 11:34:26 AM
The pub?
I'd say that's a good bet. They'll celebrate the Ulster title properly now. There'll be a few heffers bulled round Letterkenny in the coming weekends.
Colm McFadden is always the last man to get his pint.
The other lads have to pass it around amongst themselves for 20 minutes before they let him have it.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 09:23:28 AM
Quote from: cadence on August 29, 2011, 08:29:04 PM
distance runners, especially marathon runners and even more so ultra marathon runners, put huge mileage on the clock weekly and constantly, being in training all the time (including cross-training) without the body giving out. it's not a case of impossible to achieve the level of fitness mcguinness wants to implement his strategy, a fair few of those players just don't have enough training under them. building up that speed endurance and overall endurance takes more time than the year they've had. building on their training regimes, i'd expect those donegal players to be well able to manage the full 70mins next year. if they kept training they'll be able to go for even longer. it's not just about speed endurance either to control the lactate build and the improve recovery times, overall muscle endurance is important too, hence they ran out of gas. none of those lads are anywhere near the fitness they can achieve. with enough years of training under them, they'd be able to play 2 games like that back-to-back. it's very achieveable i think. currently, it's a 35mins intense fartleks session, with a break to refuel and stretch, followed by another 35mins fartleks session. any experienced runner will tell you the same. you simply need to train properly and for long enough to achieve the goal you have. i def think we'll see more of the same next year. but i would expect them to have the legs to be able to push on and attack teams in the last 20mins. i think that's what he'll try to do.
Interesting enough that Cadence.
This may prove to be true, However all the stamina training in the world does not take into account the hits that you get in Gaelic football. You don't get them in hurling. Only American football, ice hockey and rugby will you get the same kind of physical contact and these other sports lads wear some element of body armour/pads.
Taking a lot of hits takes it out of you.
IMO Donegal were up there as the fittest team in the country – having eclipsed Kildare and Dublin – but they had to be in order to play that kind of game and last the 70 minutes.
If it was just running then Donegal wouldn't have the problem, its how they use their bodies to absorb runners and tackles etc. This will cause or accelerate injury more than ordinary running as a fatigued body shipping a tackle can more easily be put off balance and injure an ankle, knee or hamstring etc.
We are comparing these Gaelic footballers to professional athletes also. Our lads don't have the luxury of being able to train, rest and get supplemental foods paid for them etc. We have a lad doing his days work, driving to training, doing a 2-3 hour session and heading home to be in bed by midnight if he's lucky – before he gets up early to head to work again.
It doesn't even have to be physical work these days, its just the constant strain on the body with no lengthy period of rest for the body or worse – the brain.
It may not be rocket science, but when you are a player, your minds always flicks back to training, games and football. Its worse for managers though in that regard !
I have said over the last number of years that Tyrone would not win back to back All Irelands for the fatigue/injury reason. Their style of play demands too much of the body to sustain it over any more than a season – unless you have a massive and talented squad.
Even Kerry cant sustain consecutive seasons thee days – and their style of play is to use the ball more than the likes of Donegal, Dublin, Cork etc
This is all my own opinion, but while I think Donegal will be there or thereabouts again next year (and I have said for the past 6 or 7 years that Donegal had the talent to win Ulster and maybe more) it would surprise me if they don't have problems with injuries etc that will lessen their effectiveness.
I could be wrong and frequently am !!
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 09:23:28 AM
Quote from: cadence on August 29, 2011, 08:29:04 PM
distance runners, especially marathon runners and even more so ultra marathon runners, put huge mileage on the clock weekly and constantly, being in training all the time (including cross-training) without the body giving out. it's not a case of impossible to achieve the level of fitness mcguinness wants to implement his strategy, a fair few of those players just don't have enough training under them. building up that speed endurance and overall endurance takes more time than the year they've had. building on their training regimes, i'd expect those donegal players to be well able to manage the full 70mins next year. if they kept training they'll be able to go for even longer. it's not just about speed endurance either to control the lactate build and the improve recovery times, overall muscle endurance is important too, hence they ran out of gas. none of those lads are anywhere near the fitness they can achieve. with enough years of training under them, they'd be able to play 2 games like that back-to-back. it's very achieveable i think. currently, it's a 35mins intense fartleks session, with a break to refuel and stretch, followed by another 35mins fartleks session. any experienced runner will tell you the same. you simply need to train properly and for long enough to achieve the goal you have. i def think we'll see more of the same next year. but i would expect them to have the legs to be able to push on and attack teams in the last 20mins. i think that's what he'll try to do.
Interesting enough that Cadence.
This may prove to be true, However all the stamina training in the world does not take into account the hits that you get in Gaelic football. You don't get them in hurling. Only American football, ice hockey and rugby will you get the same kind of physical contact and these other sports lads wear some element of body armour/pads.
Taking a lot of hits takes it out of you.
IMO Donegal were up there as the fittest team in the country – having eclipsed Kildare and Dublin – but they had to be in order to play that kind of game and last the 70 minutes.
If it was just running then Donegal wouldn't have the problem, its how they use their bodies to absorb runners and tackles etc. This will cause or accelerate injury more than ordinary running as a fatigued body shipping a tackle can more easily be put off balance and injure an ankle, knee or hamstring etc.
We are comparing these Gaelic footballers to professional athletes also. Our lads don't have the luxury of being able to train, rest and get supplemental foods paid for them etc. We have a lad doing his days work, driving to training, doing a 2-3 hour session and heading home to be in bed by midnight if he's lucky – before he gets up early to head to work again.
It doesn't even have to be physical work these days, its just the constant strain on the body with no lengthy period of rest for the body or worse – the brain.
It may not be rocket science, but when you are a player, your minds always flicks back to training, games and football. Its worse for managers though in that regard !
I have said over the last number of years that Tyrone would not win back to back All Irelands for the fatigue/injury reason. Their style of play demands too much of the body to sustain it over any more than a season – unless you have a massive and talented squad.
Even Kerry cant sustain consecutive seasons thee days – and their style of play is to use the ball more than the likes of Donegal, Dublin, Cork etc
This is all my own opinion, but while I think Donegal will be there or thereabouts again next year (and I have said for the past 6 or 7 years that Donegal had the talent to win Ulster and maybe more) it would surprise me if they don't have problems with injuries etc that will lessen their effectiveness.
I could be wrong and frequently am !!
nobody i know into their gaa has ever agreed with me on my fitness theory. :)
i was listening to highland radio after the game and rory gallagher was talking about the areas that he felt let us down. fitness was mentioned and i think he said something along the lines of it being needing to be addressed and if players couldn't give the required amount of commitment, "they're no good to us".
i think you're right, what is being asked of the donegal players is a level of fitness and body conditioning close to, if not at, professional athelete level. i take the point about the hits in gaa placing additional risk of injury on players in motion over normal athletics type of running, and that's true of any contact sport i suppose you could say. i think the key issue is the trade off/balance between bulk and power which also helps to take the regular hits (that raw anaerobic fitness you see in sprinters with bodies rippling with muscle fibre ready to explode) and aerobic fitness, the type you see on distance runners with light frames up top. it's getting the right balance of those two characteristics in place. some donegal players are there or there abouts. i'm thinking mcglynn here who has a good level of both types of fitness. if it isn't muscle, get it off because it's excess baggage and slowing you down.
i've read other's posts on murphy being taken further down the field towards our own goal and the rights and wrongs of that. i was also looking at this in light of whether the role suited his type of fitness. he isn't built for that area of the field where there's more running needed. gaa hits aside, if i look at him purely as an athelte, he looks to me like someone who can improve on his anaerobic, power endurance fitness, but more so on the aerobic side of things. i think traditionally full forward work has required shortish bursts and recovery times, and not covering ground and getting up and down and over and back that middle third. i think mcguinness is asking for a different type of game that people are saying is unrecognisable, and that requires different levels of fitness. murphy, for example, can slim down and become more powerful and have better aerobic stamina and i don't think it would affect his ability to take a hit. lowering the body fat and keeping enough muscle mass might even improve it.
as far as commitment is concerned and what is being asked, it's the holy grail and most players will commit to that. i think that although they'll be closer to where they need to be next year, they may need a year or even two more to get there again as that's just the way sport goes. the problem they'll have is sustaining more than another year of it. i agree with you there about it being tough on players, and on their loved ones, asking them to achieve and sustain professional levels of fitness with a day job. nothing like big days out and a bit of hype around donegal itself to keep them hungry though.
i'm intrigued by the what will happen next side of it.
IMO Murphy can play this foraging game because he is young and still has that springy and sprightly step /athleticism that youth gives you.
This wont last and his physique isnt suited to that game .His physique is also not one that you could slim down a whole lot unless he goes on hunger strike.
Even if he lost loads of weight, he would take a while getting used to playing a completely different type of game as right now he is a strong powerful runner who knows people out of his way.
without the bulk and strength, he wont be able to do that- and will he be as effective.
IMO you pick players and play them to their own strengths in a side whose formation and style you tailor towards the players you posess.
Next year will be interesting.
Who will knock the Dubs off their perch as All Ireland champions !!
Where next for Donegal?
Hollywood, I'd suggest. There are a couple of strong Oscar contenders in the clip below. >:(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRaI1PDU2xw
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 04:12:58 PM
IMO Murphy can play this foraging game because he is young and still has that springy and sprightly step /athleticism that youth gives you.
This wont last and his physique isnt suited to that game .His physique is also not one that you could slim down a whole lot unless he goes on hunger strike.
Even if he lost loads of weight, he would take a while getting used to playing a completely different type of game as right now he is a strong powerful runner who knows people out of his way.
without the bulk and strength, he wont be able to do that- and will he be as effective.
IMO you pick players and play them to their own strengths in a side whose formation and style you tailor towards the players you posess.
Next year will be interesting.
Who will knock the Dubs off their perch as All Ireland champions !!
agree with you about you pick and play to their strengths. there's no doubt he's young and fit and a powerful lump of a man... but for even young men with the years smiling on them, there's the potential there to up the performance level. i don't mean he needs to drop down to a silly weight, i mean he can be fitter aerobically and also keep his power, even improve on it. if he keeps training, it'll happen nice a slowly, which is the most sustainable and safer for avoiding injuries. takes years to get to that level. i'm not just talking about murphy here either, the whole camp will be monsters if they keep the discipline and the training going.
the dubs are unbeatable as we all know so i'm taking that was rhetorical.
Quote from: Goldengreen on August 30, 2011, 02:13:48 PM
Yea let me correct that Fear ón Srath Bán, agree with you 100% there, what i meant was more equating the critriciam Tyrone got at the time to now being lauded. I like that 'fire blanket defence' good description and that is what we were, Tyrone had the Sean Cavanaghs that Donegal does not have yet but give it time.
Fair enough Gg, time will indeed change perspectives.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 30, 2011, 01:19:19 PM
Quote from: Goldengreen on August 30, 2011, 12:20:02 PM
After all Tyrone we crucified when they appeared with their blanked defense now coming up on ten years of they are lauded, well donegal are at the start of that journey...
Fair dues there Goldengreen, you've every right to be extremely proud of your team.
But, you're incorrect in that statement above (to equate our system with yours): at no time in our games at any stage of our evolutionary cycle did we utilise the single solitary attacker in the oppostion half for our kickouts as a strategic ploy, never.
If what we employed was a 'blanket defence', then your lads were employing a 'fire blanket defence'.
More like a duvet defence. It covers more than a blanket.
If I were a Donegal fan, Gallagher talking about upping the fitness for next year would be worrying. More of the same only better. It is understandable McGuinness making Donegal harder to beat this year but this tactic may not be as effective next year.
If Brogan had scored a goal with that early chance or Kildares goal been allowed the plan was out the window and there didn't seem to be a plan B.
Quote from: Orangemac on August 30, 2011, 09:35:19 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 30, 2011, 01:19:19 PM
If what we employed was a 'blanket defence', then your lads were employing a 'fire blanket defence'.
More like a duvet defence. It covers more than a blanket.
I was thinking of it being even more impenetrable than the blanket defence! ;)
Quote from: cadence on August 30, 2011, 09:12:13 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 04:12:58 PM
IMO Murphy can play this foraging game because he is young and still has that springy and sprightly step /athleticism that youth gives you.
This wont last and his physique isnt suited to that game .His physique is also not one that you could slim down a whole lot unless he goes on hunger strike.
Even if he lost loads of weight, he would take a while getting used to playing a completely different type of game as right now he is a strong powerful runner who knows people out of his way.
without the bulk and strength, he wont be able to do that- and will he be as effective.
IMO you pick players and play them to their own strengths in a side whose formation and style you tailor towards the players you posess.
Next year will be interesting.
Who will knock the Dubs off their perch as All Ireland champions !!
agree with you about you pick and play to their strengths. there's no doubt he's young and fit and a powerful lump of a man... but for even young men with the years smiling on them, there's the potential there to up the performance level. i don't mean he needs to drop down to a silly weight, i mean he can be fitter aerobically and also keep his power, even improve on it. if he keeps training, it'll happen nice a slowly, which is the most sustainable and safer for avoiding injuries. takes years to get to that level. i'm not just talking about murphy here either, the whole camp will be monsters if they keep the discipline and the training going.
the dubs are unbeatable as we all know so i'm taking that was rhetorical.
You think Donegal are going to see many more Michael Murphy's? Every other team builds their team around the talisman.
Donegal do the opposite.
Its actually quite simple how to beat Donegal and this system. Kerry would have destroyed them in my view.
Dublin panicked which doesn't bode well for the 18th.
Quote from: Orangemac on August 30, 2011, 09:35:19 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 30, 2011, 01:19:19 PM
Quote from: Goldengreen on August 30, 2011, 12:20:02 PM
After all Tyrone we crucified when they appeared with their blanked defense now coming up on ten years of they are lauded, well donegal are at the start of that journey...
Fair dues there Goldengreen, you've every right to be extremely proud of your team.
But, you're incorrect in that statement above (to equate our system with yours): at no time in our games at any stage of our evolutionary cycle did we utilise the single solitary attacker in the oppostion half for our kickouts as a strategic ploy, never.
If what we employed was a 'blanket defence', then your lads were employing a 'fire blanket defence'.
More like a duvet defence. It covers more than a blanket.
If I were a Donegal fan, Gallagher talking about upping the fitness for next year would be worrying. More of the same only better. It is understandable McGuinness making Donegal harder to beat this year but this tactic may not be as effective next year.
If Brogan had scored a goal with that early chance or Kildares goal been allowed the plan was out the window and there didn't seem to be a plan B.
i don't necessarily think that more fitness will mean that we'll play as defensive as against dublin. i think what mcg and ng are going to ask of the players next year is to defend and counterattack for the full 70.
i must confess though, the more stick we get, the uglier i want us to be and the more i want our game to be about graftin' and turning games into the type of battle we saw sunday. i was going to say i hope we have a more varied game, but i honestly couldn't care less, as long as we win.
Quote from: cadence on August 30, 2011, 09:51:18 PM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 30, 2011, 09:35:19 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 30, 2011, 01:19:19 PM
Quote from: Goldengreen on August 30, 2011, 12:20:02 PM
After all Tyrone we crucified when they appeared with their blanked defense now coming up on ten years of they are lauded, well donegal are at the start of that journey...
Fair dues there Goldengreen, you've every right to be extremely proud of your team.
But, you're incorrect in that statement above (to equate our system with yours): at no time in our games at any stage of our evolutionary cycle did we utilise the single solitary attacker in the oppostion half for our kickouts as a strategic ploy, never.
If what we employed was a 'blanket defence', then your lads were employing a 'fire blanket defence'.
More like a duvet defence. It covers more than a blanket.
If I were a Donegal fan, Gallagher talking about upping the fitness for next year would be worrying. More of the same only better. It is understandable McGuinness making Donegal harder to beat this year but this tactic may not be as effective next year.
If Brogan had scored a goal with that early chance or Kildares goal been allowed the plan was out the window and there didn't seem to be a plan B.
i don't necessarily think that more fitness will mean that we'll play as defensive as against dublin. i think what mcg and ng are going to ask of the players next year is to defend and counterattack for the full 70.
i must confess though, the more stick we get, the uglier i want us to be and the more i want our game to be about graftin' and turning games into the type of battle we saw sunday. i was going to say i hope we have a more varied game, but i honestly couldn't care less, as long as we win.
But you wont. The system is quite easily beaten. It took dublin 55 minutes to figure it out.
It will never work again.
Quote from: INDIANA on August 30, 2011, 09:49:52 PM
Quote from: cadence on August 30, 2011, 09:12:13 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 04:12:58 PM
IMO Murphy can play this foraging game because he is young and still has that springy and sprightly step /athleticism that youth gives you.
This wont last and his physique isnt suited to that game .His physique is also not one that you could slim down a whole lot unless he goes on hunger strike.
Even if he lost loads of weight, he would take a while getting used to playing a completely different type of game as right now he is a strong powerful runner who knows people out of his way.
without the bulk and strength, he wont be able to do that- and will he be as effective.
IMO you pick players and play them to their own strengths in a side whose formation and style you tailor towards the players you posess.
Next year will be interesting.
Who will knock the Dubs off their perch as All Ireland champions !!
agree with you about you pick and play to their strengths. there's no doubt he's young and fit and a powerful lump of a man... but for even young men with the years smiling on them, there's the potential there to up the performance level. i don't mean he needs to drop down to a silly weight, i mean he can be fitter aerobically and also keep his power, even improve on it. if he keeps training, it'll happen nice a slowly, which is the most sustainable and safer for avoiding injuries. takes years to get to that level. i'm not just talking about murphy here either, the whole camp will be monsters if they keep the discipline and the training going.
the dubs are unbeatable as we all know so i'm taking that was rhetorical.
You think Donegal are going to see many more Michael Murphy's? Every other team builds their team around the talisman.
Donegal do the opposite.
Its actually quite simple how to beat Donegal and this system. Kerry would have destroyed them in my view.
Dublin panicked which doesn't bode well for the 18th.
we've always been able to produce talented players and every so often each generation produces a few crackers. i def agree with you that he was taken out of where he was most effective. he didn't have his shooting boots on and i can only guess that this was why he was shifted back as far as he was. having one man forward only is too extreme, so the management have to strike a better balance and figure out a way to tweak the system enough to ensure we're not soft defensively and at the same time have enough going forward.
think cork are better suited to beating our system than kerry. we'd suffocate kerry too. cork have the power runners to do us damage. they'd have to keep their width though, that's where dublin had the most joy in the end. very interesting to see what'll happen next year when we all go again.
Donegal will be just fine.They will be better in 2012
I am of the opinion,that they will not be quite as defensive-minded next year as they put into place,Part 2 of their plan, Linking their very effective blanket defensive system to an effective attacking strategy.
At times they had 12-13 players behind the ball,
This will be reduced to 9-10 next year,with the extra player or two providing the link between the blanket defense and what should be a very potent full forward line of Murphy,McFadden and McBrearty.
Quotethink cork are better suited to beating our system than kerry. we'd suffocate kerry too. cork have the power runners to do us damage.
I am crying with laughter thanks we all needed a good pick me up. And the bit about the Cork power runners, who are they again and how come they never mastered Kerry when it mattered ?
Quotevery interesting to see what'll happen next year when we all go again.
As George Hamilton once said, "a nation holds it breath"
Quote from: INDIANA on August 30, 2011, 09:58:33 PM
Quote from: cadence on August 30, 2011, 09:51:18 PM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 30, 2011, 09:35:19 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 30, 2011, 01:19:19 PM
Quote from: Goldengreen on August 30, 2011, 12:20:02 PM
After all Tyrone we crucified when they appeared with their blanked defense now coming up on ten years of they are lauded, well donegal are at the start of that journey...
Fair dues there Goldengreen, you've every right to be extremely proud of your team.
But, you're incorrect in that statement above (to equate our system with yours): at no time in our games at any stage of our evolutionary cycle did we utilise the single solitary attacker in the oppostion half for our kickouts as a strategic ploy, never.
If what we employed was a 'blanket defence', then your lads were employing a 'fire blanket defence'.
More like a duvet defence. It covers more than a blanket.
If I were a Donegal fan, Gallagher talking about upping the fitness for next year would be worrying. More of the same only better. It is understandable McGuinness making Donegal harder to beat this year but this tactic may not be as effective next year.
If Brogan had scored a goal with that early chance or Kildares goal been allowed the plan was out the window and there didn't seem to be a plan B.
i don't necessarily think that more fitness will mean that we'll play as defensive as against dublin. i think what mcg and ng are going to ask of the players next year is to defend and counterattack for the full 70.
i must confess though, the more stick we get, the uglier i want us to be and the more i want our game to be about graftin' and turning games into the type of battle we saw sunday. i was going to say i hope we have a more varied game, but i honestly couldn't care less, as long as we win.
But you wont. The system is quite easily beaten. It took dublin 55 minutes to figure it out.
It will never work again.
dublin had from the day they beat tyrone to figure it out and were at a loss imo. it wasn't just a case of figuring it out, tiredness played a part too and we didn't kill it off when we could have. the system itself is far from being quite easily beaten. some people don't like it, but sure what odds.... it's effective.
McBrearty is a great prospect too so Murphy may not be on his own in a few years.
Donegal need to change a little and I think they know that. Not one team in the country will want to play them next year come business end of the championship that's for sure. I always felt if they were behind they could be in bother and so it proved.
You look at Sunday and you could point to a few things though- Lacey's loss was a massive blow and also the referee seemed to forget Dublin could concede a foul in the last 5 or 10 minutes. (The Dublin corner back had his elbow on the ball while on the ground on the 20 - Donegal would have equalised - and that was one of the most ridiculous reffing decisions I have ever seen at this level as it was blatant). All in all they weren't that far away but they do need some tweaking just yet. They could have won that game however they'd not have beat Kerry.
I think they are missing a half forward with a good engine - if they could uncover one of those it'd be a great help. They have to play at LEAST 2 forwards though. Next year they'll be fitter too as I think they ran out of steam a bit.
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2011, 10:19:03 PM
the referee seemed to forget Dublin could concede a foul in the last 5 or 10 minutes. (The Dublin corner back had his elbow on the ball while on the ground on the 20 - Donegal would have equalised - and that was one of the most ridiculous reffing decisions I have ever seen at this level as it was blatant
Thanks be to jaysus that Deegan was reffing it Sunday and not you.
Under what rule what you have given this 'blatant foul' that would've entitled Donegal to an equaliser?
Pray tell please enlighten us.
Quote from: heffo on August 30, 2011, 10:28:06 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2011, 10:19:03 PM
the referee seemed to forget Dublin could concede a foul in the last 5 or 10 minutes. (The Dublin corner back had his elbow on the ball while on the ground on the 20 - Donegal would have equalised - and that was one of the most ridiculous reffing decisions I have ever seen at this level as it was blatant
Thanks be to jaysus that Deegan was reffing it Sunday and not you.
Under what rule what you have given this 'blatant foul' that would've entitled Donegal to an equaliser?
Pray tell please enlighten us.
Its called the "Jackeen rule" heffo,
If a dub defender even looks at the ball inside the 20 metre line,its a free in to the Cultie team.
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on August 30, 2011, 10:31:27 PM
Quote from: heffo on August 30, 2011, 10:28:06 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2011, 10:19:03 PM
the referee seemed to forget Dublin could concede a foul in the last 5 or 10 minutes. (The Dublin corner back had his elbow on the ball while on the ground on the 20 - Donegal would have equalised - and that was one of the most ridiculous reffing decisions I have ever seen at this level as it was blatant
Thanks be to jaysus that Deegan was reffing it Sunday and not you.
Under what rule what you have given this 'blatant foul' that would've entitled Donegal to an equaliser?
Pray tell please enlighten us.
Its called the "Jackeen rule" heffo,
If a dub defender even looks at the ball inside the 20 metre line,its a free in to the Cultie team.
We call it the Gooch rule.
Quote from: Kerry Mike on August 30, 2011, 10:09:50 PM
Quotethink cork are better suited to beating our system than kerry. we'd suffocate kerry too. cork have the power runners to do us damage.
I am crying with laughter thanks we all needed a good pick me up. And the bit about the Cork power runners, who are they again and how come they never mastered Kerry when it mattered ?
Quotevery interesting to see what'll happen next year when we all go again.
As George Hamilton once said, "a nation holds it breath"
:D :D :D sure i'm laughin' too!
if i can stop me splutterin' for a second.... we were talking about donegal here weren't we? i just think different teams pose different problems. i think we'd cope better defensively against kerry than cork. kerry are all about movement and making space, but when there's no space to make i think even the great kerry might find that a wee bit tight and not be able to score as freely as some people think. just a theory like. cork are the most powerful running team out there and if we were to play them i'd be worried. less so than if we had to play kerry. you fight fire with fire and all that.
anyway, please forgive me, i didn't mean to insult you. youse are still the best ever, how's that?!
Apologise for the 13 man defense and we'll call it quits.
:D
it's the future!
you could say its Backs to the Future
it's our density.
Quote from: heffo on August 30, 2011, 10:28:06 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2011, 10:19:03 PM
the referee seemed to forget Dublin could concede a foul in the last 5 or 10 minutes. (The Dublin corner back had his elbow on the ball while on the ground on the 20 - Donegal would have equalised - and that was one of the most ridiculous reffing decisions I have ever seen at this level as it was blatant
Thanks be to jaysus that Deegan was reffing it Sunday and not you.
Under what rule what you have given this 'blatant foul' that would've entitled Donegal to an equaliser?
Pray tell please enlighten us.
Elbow arm and all were on the ball - that is what. All commentators etc said it.
I ain't from Donegal and don't care that Dublin won. There was a series of play where there were either four or five fouls against Donegal in one passage of play - the last being the off the ground incident. The ref gave none of them - Dublin scored.
Watch it back yourself.
Have seen a few comments on here now referring to the Dublin fans on Sunday? What happened?
I know there is a rough element to the Dubs "hill/soccer" contingent but what happened on Sunday?
Quote from: INDIANA on August 30, 2011, 09:58:33 PM
Quote from: cadence on August 30, 2011, 09:51:18 PM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 30, 2011, 09:35:19 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 30, 2011, 01:19:19 PM
Quote from: Goldengreen on August 30, 2011, 12:20:02 PM
After all Tyrone we crucified when they appeared with their blanked defense now coming up on ten years of they are lauded, well donegal are at the start of that journey...
Fair dues there Goldengreen, you've every right to be extremely proud of your team.
But, you're incorrect in that statement above (to equate our system with yours): at no time in our games at any stage of our evolutionary cycle did we utilise the single solitary attacker in the oppostion half for our kickouts as a strategic ploy, never.
If what we employed was a 'blanket defence', then your lads were employing a 'fire blanket defence'.
More like a duvet defence. It covers more than a blanket.
If I were a Donegal fan, Gallagher talking about upping the fitness for next year would be worrying. More of the same only better. It is understandable McGuinness making Donegal harder to beat this year but this tactic may not be as effective next year.
If Brogan had scored a goal with that early chance or Kildares goal been allowed the plan was out the window and there didn't seem to be a plan B.
i don't necessarily think that more fitness will mean that we'll play as defensive as against dublin. i think what mcg and ng are going to ask of the players next year is to defend and counterattack for the full 70.
i must confess though, the more stick we get, the uglier i want us to be and the more i want our game to be about graftin' and turning games into the type of battle we saw sunday. i was going to say i hope we have a more varied game, but i honestly couldn't care less, as long as we win.
But you wont. The system is quite easily beaten. It took dublin 55 minutes to figure it out.
It will never work again.
IMO if donegal played dublin again this weekend with full line ups, dublin would do well to surpass there total of 8 scores.
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2011, 11:14:48 PM
Quote from: heffo on August 30, 2011, 10:28:06 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2011, 10:19:03 PM
the referee seemed to forget Dublin could concede a foul in the last 5 or 10 minutes. (The Dublin corner back had his elbow on the ball while on the ground on the 20 - Donegal would have equalised - and that was one of the most ridiculous reffing decisions I have ever seen at this level as it was blatant
Thanks be to jaysus that Deegan was reffing it Sunday and not you.
Under what rule what you have given this 'blatant foul' that would've entitled Donegal to an equaliser?
Pray tell please enlighten us.
Elbow arm and all were on the ball - that is what. All commentators etc said it.
I ain't from Donegal and don't care that Dublin won. There was a series of play where there were either four or five fouls against Donegal in one passage of play - the last being the off the ground incident. The ref gave none of them - Dublin scored.
Watch it back yourself.
I agree with you that Deegan seemed to give every benefit of the doubt to Dublin in the last 10 minutes (no doubt compensating for the sending off which I'm sure he was regretting), but you said "that was one of the most ridiculous reffing decisions I have ever seen at this level as it was blatant". I say that is one of the most ridiculous criticism of a refereeing decision I have seen at this level since Lynchboy thought a referee could only move a free forward once (sorry Lynchboy) as it is ignorant. ;D
A player can touch the ball on the ground with any part of the body except the hand. It's not soccer where a ball touching the arm is regarded as "handball" (You're not a St John's man by any chance? :D). Rule 4.5 - look it up. Unless you're invoking rule 4.4 where it says lying on the ball is a foul. Can you back up your indignation?
And as for invoking the commentator exemption ::) They get paid a pile of money to spew the biggest pile of sh*te. The least that should be expected of them is that they read the bl**dy rulebook. The great commentators would have us believe that Gooch lifting the ball with his heels was a "clear foul". It's not! Lifting with the knees, definitely (rule 4.3). Lifting with the feet, no, it is not a foul. At least not in the GAA rulebook.
If we're going to lambast referees on their decisions then let's make sure it has some basis in fact in the
GAA rulebook and not some other sport's rulebook or hand-me-down folklore! They have a hard enough job as it is.
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2011, 11:14:48 PM
Quote from: heffo on August 30, 2011, 10:28:06 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2011, 10:19:03 PM
the referee seemed to forget Dublin could concede a foul in the last 5 or 10 minutes. (The Dublin corner back had his elbow on the ball while on the ground on the 20 - Donegal would have equalised - and that was one of the most ridiculous reffing decisions I have ever seen at this level as it was blatant
Thanks be to jaysus that Deegan was reffing it Sunday and not you.
Under what rule what you have given this 'blatant foul' that would've entitled Donegal to an equaliser?
Pray tell please enlighten us.
Elbow arm and all were on the ball - that is what.
You said elbow - this is not a foul.
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2011, 11:14:48 PM
Quote from: heffo on August 30, 2011, 10:28:06 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2011, 10:19:03 PM
the referee seemed to forget Dublin could concede a foul in the last 5 or 10 minutes. (The Dublin corner back had his elbow on the ball while on the ground on the 20 - Donegal would have equalised - and that was one of the most ridiculous reffing decisions I have ever seen at this level as it was blatant
Thanks be to jaysus that Deegan was reffing it Sunday and not you.
Under what rule what you have given this 'blatant foul' that would've entitled Donegal to an equaliser?
Pray tell please enlighten us.
Elbow arm and all were on the ball - that is what. All commentators etc said it.
I ain't from Donegal and don't care that Dublin won. There was a series of play where there were either four or five fouls against Donegal in one passage of play - the last being the off the ground incident. The ref gave none of them - Dublin scored.
Watch it back yourself.
If the ref favoured dublin..thank god. That is what Donegal deserved.
I just hope they dont extend that to the final !
Quote from: ck on August 30, 2011, 11:40:53 PM
Have seen a few comments on here now referring to the Dublin fans on Sunday? What happened?
I know there is a rough element to the Dubs "hill/soccer" contingent but what happened on Sunday?
Nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Booed donegal when they kicked a free kick backwards & when they started going from side to side and/or backwards constantly handpassing instead of god forbid trying to go forward & score.
They did boo donegal freetakers (donegal fans did same for dubs players) & seeing as donegal PLAYERS were roaring abuse at dubs players taking frees I don't see how people can complain
Quote from: OverThePostsAWide on August 31, 2011, 10:24:55 AM
A player can touch the ball on the ground with any part of the body except the hand. It's not soccer where a ball touching the arm is regarded as "handball" (You're not a St John's man by any chance? :D). Rule 4.5 - look it up. Unless you're invoking rule 4.4 where it says lying on the ball is a foul. Can you back up your indignation?
Thought it was the hand that touched off the ball.
Ref was poor in the first number of minutes when he awarded three very soft frees to Dublin.
I dont agree that he was overly harsh on Donegal in the last 10 mins.
I thought he blew up early, but that was Donegals own fault for time wasting that the ref obv decided didnt deserve aditional time for - which he was probably correct about.
We all know the commentators are cack, so dont pay any heed to them.
yer shooting th messanger here, i was only recanting what I recall the guy teaching us. However, this was one very small item in a litany of errors from mr deegan, who I have seen a good few times this season and imo isnt a great ref.
and by the way- hold yer horses here..
" "that was one of the most ridiculous reffing decisions I have ever seen at this level as it was blatant". I say that is one of the most ridiculous criticism of a refereeing decision I have seen at this level since Lynchboy thought a referee could only move a free forward once (sorry Lynchboy) as it is ignorant."yer way OTT there- as you have already admited , what I said is actually correct- but only for rules of dissent, not for technical rules- so it wasnt an 'ignorant' criticsm of the ref, just n this case incorrect- if it was a technical foul and not one of dissent.
Its stupid inconsistencies in the rules that confuse players as well as referees and such anomalies need to be resolved which would help a lot in our games.
Aside from the trophies won surely the fact that the whole country is one way or the other discussing Donegals discipline and resilience a sign of the strides JMG has made this year.
Honestly 12 months ago if it had been said that 1 team would reach the AI semi final and restrict Dublin to 8 points would Donegal have been in anyones top 5 guesses?
Quote from: Orangemac on August 31, 2011, 11:15:28 PM
Aside from the trophies won surely the fact that the whole country is one way or the other discussing Donegals discipline and resilience a sign of the strides JMG has made this year.
Honestly 12 months ago if it had been said that 1 team would reach the AI semi final and restrict Dublin to 8 points who would have been in anyones top 5 guesses?
My guesses would be
- Cork
- Kerry
- Tyrone
- Kildare
- Mayo
Was I right?