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http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0519/fitzgeraldg.html


Former Taoiseach Garret FitzGerald dies aged 85

Updated: 08:13, Thursday, 19 May 2011

Former Taoiseach Dr Garret FitzGerald has died in hospital in Dublin after a short illness.

Dr FitzGerald, who was 85, served twice as Taoiseach between 1981 and 1987 at the head of Fine Gael/Labour coalition governments.

In a statement, his family paid tribute to the doctors, nurses and staff at the Mater Private hospital.

'They would like to thank the doctors, nurses and staff at The Mater Private hospital for the wonderful care he received during his illness.

'He was a much loved and adored father, grandfather and great-grandfather and will be sadly missed by his extended family.

'Details of Funeral arrangements will announced later.'

Born in 1926, both of Garret FitzGerald's parents had been involved in Sinn Féin during the War of Independence.

His father, Desmond, later served as Minister for External Affairs in the State's first government.

In later life, Garret FitzGerald often spoke of his desire to bring together the southern Catholic tradition of his father with the northern Protestant tradition of his mother, Mabel.

He met his wife Joan at UCD. They were to have a famously close relationship. The couple had three children.

Dr FitzGerald worked for Aer Lingus for some years before becoming an economic consultant and academic, and then a politician. He was elected to the Seanad in 1965 and the Dáil in 1969, where he quickly made his mark, particularly in the debates on the arms crisis.

The political career of former Taoiseach and Fine Gael leader Garret FitzGerald in pictures

A supporter of the liberal, Just Society wing of the party, he campaigned strongly in favour of Ireland joining the EEC in the 1972 Referendum.

When Fine Gael entered Government in 1973, he became Minister for Foreign Affairs, playing a leading role during Ireland's first Presidency of the EEC.

He was also a key figure in negotiating the Sunningdale Agreement, which set up a short-lived power-sharing Executive in Northern Ireland.

He succeeded Liam Cosgrave as Fine Gael leader after the 1977 election defeat, encouraging the party in a more liberal direction while rebuilding the organisation from the ground up.

In 1981, he formed a minority coalition government with Labour's Michael O'Leary as Tánaiste, and announced his desire for a constitutional crusade to create a more pluralist Irish society.

But the coalition fell the following February when Budget proposals to extend VAT to children's clothing and footwear were defeated.

Dr FitzGerald's great rival, Charles Haughey, returned to power at the head of a shortlived minority government before, in November 1982, Fine Gael achieved its best result in over half a century, coming within five seats of Fianna Fáil.

A difficult economic situation led to tough and unpopular medicine, while in 1983 the electorate voted against Dr FitzGerald's advice to amend the Constitution to protect the life of the unborn, and three years later rejected the introduction of divorce.

On Northern Ireland, the New Ireland Forum aimed to unite constitutional nationalists but its recommendations were rejected by British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher.

Despite the set-back, Dr FitzGerald kept working, signing the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985, which gave the Irish government a role in Northern Ireland and marked the high point of his political career.

But the economic situation remained dire and at the beginning of 1987 the Labour ministers walked out of government.

Charles Haughey returned to office, with Garret FitzGerald offering conditional support in the Dáil, foreshadowing Fine Gael's Tallaght Strategy.

The next day, Dr FitzGerald resigned from the Fine Gael leadership.

Although he retired from the Dáil in 1992, he still took part in some political campaigns, particularly in the referenda on the Nice and Lisbon Treaties.

He also served as Chancellor of the National University of Ireland for 12 years, from 1997 to 2009, during which time he presided over the NUI's Centenary in 2008.

He wrote books and newspaper articles, lectured and travelled widely, and appeared on many radio and television programmes, including election coverage, most recently last February.

RIP Garret Fitzgerald.

Surprised and saddened to hear that, probably the most honourable of our recent Taoisigh, ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

His is to be mourned to be sure.

Croí - I would have thought Albert and Brutal would have been 'honourable' as well.

RIP. Very sad news indeed. His work on the Sunningdale agreement and Anglo-Irish agreement was the forerunner of later developments and had he been in health he would have been an important guest at the dinner last night.

Quote from: Shamrock Shore on May 19, 2011, 09:18:54 AM
His is to be mourned to be sure.

Croí - I would have thought Albert and Brutal would have been 'honourable' as well.

Most honourable SS, he was a cut above them two IMO.

RIP Garret Fitzgerald

It was just over a month ago when he appeared on the Saturday night show on RTE.  An extremely intelligent man.

RIP Garret Fitzgerald. A man of great intelligence and integrity.

It tells you a lot about the Irish mentality and the expectations of politicians in the early 80s when the title 'Garret the Good' was used in a sneering way, as if to say being honest and well-intentioned was somehow a fault.
It suggested only those who knew the ways of the 'nod and a wink' (and an envelope) could get things done.
In the last couple of decades we've learnt what really went on when that approach was followed.

RIP.  I didn't always agree with him but he always came across as a decent and honest man and you don't get many of them in the world of politics.

May he Rest In Peace

Great little story told on radio this morning.
Garret worked in Aer Lingus for about 10 years before entering politics, and was apparently able to recite the full Aer Lingus timetable.
When he left, the story goes he was replaced by four men and two computers  :D

Quote from: Tubberman on May 19, 2011, 10:22:53 AM
RIP Garret Fitzgerald. A man of great intelligence and integrity.

It tells you a lot about the Irish mentality and the expectations of politicians in the early 80s when the title 'Garret the Good' was used in a sneering way, as if to say being honest and well-intentioned was somehow a fault.
It suggested only those who knew the ways of the 'nod and a wink' (and an envelope) could get things done.
In the last couple of decades we've learnt what really went on when that approach was followed.

Garret wasn't adverse to an oul nod and a wink himself.

http://www.rte.ie/news/1999/0217/fitzgerald.html (http://www.rte.ie/news/1999/0217/fitzgerald.html)

RIP alright.

He took a lot of flak for his apperance to be 'lacking balls' in dealing with the northern troubles during his term as taoiseach. He was also 'blamed' for backing down and because of this the hunger strikers were allowed die - only for the british gov to quietly u turn and give the 5 demands eventually.
However Garret told republicans at the time (and in a meeting with him not too long ago a relation and neighbour of mine when at a function) that he felt powerless to help , that the british gov (thatcher) had told him that there was nothing he could do to intercede - so Garret got a bad rep with republicanism over this - and he was really only being practical, which I think he was all along as a politician.
He certainly tried to get involved in the northern problems, the sunningdale treaty is now attributed to being the fore runner of the GFA etc - but sure any one of us can predict a reunited Ireland with all citizens included with equality, single police force, single health care and benefits system and be 100% correct when this time comes. Sunningdale was useless as the establishment in the north didnt subscribe to the equality ideals at that time.
Its only since the majority vote garnered by SF & SDLP made the establishment and unionist/loyalist parties HAVE to play ball and embrace 'equality' at long last.

Garret , a highly intelligent man, good for the country as a forward thiking democracy as well as he made FF shake themselves up after Garret's gove made huge and disasterous economic mistakes.

I'd say he was a patriot. RIP Garret.

Was he not also part of Cosgrove's "Heavy Gang" government in the 70s which brought in Section 31 while sitting on their thumbs as Dublin and Monaghan were bombed? Then the treatment of Uachtarán Ó Dálaigh. Then there was the economic performance of the government he led, the Anglo-Irish Agreement sop to the SDLP which probably held back peace by 10 years, the Hunger Strikes, the New Ireland Forum which excluded a substantial part of Irish citizens. He might have been a nice man an all but let's not dishonour him by eulogising him beyond his life. A good thinker, an intellectual yeah, but by no means was he a successful politician. 

Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

I think he was a decent man who did his best and for what he believed were the right reasons. I also considered him a bit of an Anglophile and a distant academic. He was a far more honest man than Haughey and Ahern etc but he himself did have a bank loan written off also. To me he seemed weak in terms of NI troubles and would never have had the trust of the nationalists. But overall he served his country well. May he rest in peace.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on May 19, 2011, 11:16:56 AM
RIP alright.

He took a lot of flak for his apperance to be 'lacking balls' in dealing with the northern troubles during his term as taoiseach. He was also 'blamed' for backing down and because of this the hunger strikers were allowed die - only for the british gov to quietly u turn and give the 5 demands eventually.
However Garret told republicans at the time (and in a meeting with him not too long ago a relation and neighbour of mine when at a function) that he felt powerless to help , that the british gov (thatcher) had told him that there was nothing he could do to intercede - so Garret got a bad rep with republicanism over this - and he was really only being practical, which I think he was all along as a politician.
He certainly tried to get involved in the northern problems, the sunningdale treaty is now attributed to being the fore runner of the GFA etc - but sure any one of us can predict a reunited Ireland with all citizens included with equality, single police force, single health care and benefits system and be 100% correct when this time comes. Sunningdale was useless as the establishment in the north didnt subscribe to the equality ideals at that time.
Its only since the majority vote garnered by SF & SDLP made the establishment and unionist/loyalist parties HAVE to play ball and embrace 'equality' at long last.

Garret , a highly intelligent man, good for the country as a forward thiking democracy as well as he made FF shake themselves up after Garret's gove made huge and disasterous economic mistakes.

I'd say he was a patriot. RIP Garret.

I'd go along with that by and large. The bit in bold shows though that he completely underestimated the problems faced by catholics/nationalists in the 6 counties and this is why he will be viewed unfavourably by many of them. Would not always have agreed with him but not a bad man.

Ironically, wasn't it the anti HBlock vote in the 1981 general election that pushed Fine Gael over the line and into government?

Quote from: Main Street on May 19, 2011, 01:03:59 PM
Ironically, wasn't it the anti HBlock vote in the 1981 general election that pushed Fine Gael over the line and into government?

from recollection MS I thought it was more the prev few years bleakness in the economy etc (much like recently) with FF presiding over it that gave fg their chance.
They fecking ballsed it up (much as they will most likely do this time too - Greece's recent events and subsequent reduced bailout terms will no doubt benefit us and rescue fg to a certain extent).
I think at the time fg were seen to be less involved or didnt really care as much about the north, HS etc as FF at least 'said' they were !
There was feck all that any of them could do, unlike now where the southern gov DOES have an input into the north !

No disrespect to the man and May God Rest his Soul but unfortunately I will always remember him for his refusal to meet the family of Bobby Sands and his treatment of certain other family members of the Hunger Strikers. In an article from the Bobby Sands Trust, it mentions how:
"The McCreeshes and Liz O'Hara had dealt with An Taoiseach, Charles Haughey in order to save Raymond and Patsy's lives. He promised that neither would die. He did nothing to save them. Goretti McDonnell, Joe's wife, and Eilish Reilly, Joe's sister, had to deal with both Haughey and the new Taoiseach Garret Fitzgerald. If Haughey was bad, and he was bad, Garret Fitzgerald was, according to Goretti, "one hundred times" worse."
He also famously asked the Gardaí to forcibly remove two of Tom McElwee's sisters from his office after a meeting with them.

An intelligent,contradictory and important man who history will be kind to. He  made some huge mistakes but was a few years ahead of others at the time on other matters. Arrogant when he was wrong. Worth listening to when he was right.  A typical irishman.
RIP

The man deserves a great send off RIP Garret

Quote from: Blowitupref on May 19, 2011, 03:57:31 PM
The man deserves a great send off RIP Garret

I hope this dose not sound petty but I hope there is no state funeral, it is not the time or place to flitter away money on such things. It was a disgrace Haughey ever got one.

Garrett was a good man with a great intellect. He certainly got some things wrong. His legacy will always to be compared with Haughey and in that there is no contest. Whoever said he was 100 times worse than CJH must have preferred being humoured by a liar to being let down by someone telling the truth. Their choice I suppose.

RIP Garrett.

He was a man you could listen to all day, great man will be missed RIP

Quote from: ross4life on May 19, 2011, 04:16:50 PM
He was a man you could listen to all day, great man will be missed RIP

From what I hear his style of chairing meetings meant that you sometimes HAD to listen to him all day.

RIP

@twitter:

"Garret Fitzgerald couldn't tell a lie, Charlie Haughey couldn't tell the truth and Bertie Ahern couldn't tell the difference"

Quote from: lynchbhoy on May 19, 2011, 02:57:53 PM

Quote from: Main Street on May 19, 2011, 01:03:59 PM
Ironically, wasn't it the anti HBlock vote in the 1981 general election that pushed Fine Gael over the line and into government?

from recollection MS I thought it was more the prev few years bleakness in the economy etc (much like recently) with FF presiding over it that gave fg their chance.

Yep, I don't disagree with that. FG did outstroke FF in the political campaign promises.  But afair, FG still had not enough in 1981.
FF might have stumbled over the line (with an overall majority of 1) or a hung parliament, if the Anti Hblock vote had not pinched away crucial first prefs votes from FF in Sligo/Leitrim as well as FF losing the 2 seats directly to them in Louth and Monaghan.

Fitzgerald proved to be less than useless in1981. His public utterances at that time were a cringing embarrassment, devoid of political, diplomatic or compassionate nous, as bad an image as the bumbling Bertie could ever manage.
I wasn't around when Garret did lead a stable government and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet then.

Quote from: Ulick on May 19, 2011, 11:38:22 AM
Was he not also part of Cosgrove's "Heavy Gang" government in the 70s which brought in Section 31 while sitting on their thumbs as Dublin and Monaghan were bombed? Then the treatment of Uachtarán Ó Dálaigh. Then there was the economic performance of the government he led, the Anglo-Irish Agreement sop to the SDLP which probably held back peace by 10 years, the Hunger Strikes, the New Ireland Forum which excluded a substantial part of Irish citizens. He might have been a nice man an all but let's not dishonour him by eulogising him beyond his life. A good thinker, an intellectual yeah, but by no means was he a successful politician. 
[/quot







and Bertie was a successful politician. Having a debt wrote off by the banks was as corrupt as any other bribe that was paid. It is just the way people thought the banks were great honourable institutions and Garret didn't do anything for it. Nothing except putting himself in the pockets of the bank.

Rest in peace Mr Honesty and Integrity

R.I.P

Doesn't matter what people think of him in death....Let the guy Rest in Peace..

Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2011, 07:35:01 PM
@twitter:

"Garret Fitzgerald couldn't tell a lie, Charlie Haughey couldn't tell the truth and Bertie Ahern couldn't tell the difference"

:D


Watched a tribute to him there on Primetime - one very intelligent, sincere and decent man.

Quote from: The Watcher Pat on May 19, 2011, 10:06:23 PM
R.I.P

Doesn't matter what people think of him in death....Let the guy Rest in Peace..

well said pat...RIP

Garret the Good?
Jude Collins


Nil nisi bonum de mortuis dicere -  speak only good of the dead – is a difficult command to follow. In fact impossible. There are clearly people who are dead – try Hitler, Stalin, some of my old teachers – who test that injunction to destruction.  But they're dead quite some time now and that seems to make a difference.

Garret Fitzgerald is dead less than twenty-four hours and the commentators have been following the Nil nisi  injunction to the letter. Praise of all kinds from all quarters is being heaped on him. One politician – I think it was Seamus Mallon – said he was one of the great political figures of the twentieth century. I suppose it's no more over-the-top  than to go "Wow!" when an Englishwoman says three Irish words.

He's indissolubly linked with the Anglo-Irish Agreement which hugely annoyed the unionist population here, and for some that was enough to make the Agreement a  good think and Fitzgerald a hero. Others like myself saw the Agreement as a British-Irish effort to block the electoral rise of Sinn Féin. In that attempt it and he were successful certainly temporarily. Did the Anglo-Irish Agreement pave the way to the Good Friday Agreement? Probably not.  The Hume-Adams talks and the IRA ceasefires did that.

Was Garret a great politician? I  don't think so.  He failed as often as he succeeded in electoral terms. His efforts to make the south of Ireland a more secular society had partial success, although Gay Byrne could probably claim as much credit on that score.  Garret's claim – or the claim of others for him – that he understood the north particularly well, having a republican father and a northern Presbyterian mother, is shaky. There are lots of people whose parentage is similar and who haven't a clue about northern politics.

He was regarded, former Fine Gael Taoiseach Alan Dukes said last night, with feelings of  "amused affection" by his peers and the public. That got it just about right, I think. When I studied at UCD in the mid-1960s, Garret was a lecturer there.  He was the epitome of the absent-minded professor, only on speed. He thought at lightning pace, moved at lightning pace, talked at lightning pace. A lot of students didn't know what the hell he was talking about most of the time but they still enjoyed him and were amused by him.

It'd be easy to remember his strenuous efforts to block the electoral path of Sinn Féin while at the same time calling on republicanism to embrace electoral politics. It'd be even easier to remember his very Dublin-4 dismissal of Charlie Haughey as a man 'of flawed pedigree'. But I prefer to remember him before all that, lecturing in economics in UCD,  circa 1965.  He delivered his lectures in a tumbling, word-running-into-word non-stop torrent, which occasionally even he would feel uneasy about.  On one occasion he had been hammering on full-speed for some ten minutes, scarcely drawing  breath, and everyone in the lecture hall was scribbling flat-out in a hopeless attempt to keep up with him. Eventually Garret paused, looked over his glasses and asked in his naive way: "I'm not going too fast, am I?"  A voice from the fifth row, belonging to one Seamus McCotter from Swatragh Co Derry (one of Charlie Haughey's many northern cousins, as it happens) responded in an audible whisper: "You're goin' like a f**king 'puter!" [= computer].  Garret seemed genuinely baffled when the lecture theatre exploded in a yell of laughter.

Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam  - May he rest in peace.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 19, 2011, 03:59:18 PM

Quote from: Blowitupref on May 19, 2011, 03:57:31 PM
The man deserves a great send off RIP Garret

I hope this dose not sound petty but I hope there is no state funeral, it is not the time or place to flitter away money on such things. It was a disgrace Haughey ever got one.

If we can flitter away the money on security for Lizzie and Obama visits this week the least we can do is spend (alot less) on a state funeral for a former Taoiseach. I agree though that Haughey should never have recieved one.

I met him once at Vienna airport way back in 2002 I think, waiting for a flight to Dublin, shared a coffee and a chat and he was a very sociable kind of fellow chaated away about sport and the like, When it came to boarding he waved away the attempt by the Aer Lingus trolley dolly at the desk to give him boarding preference and he boarded just like the rest of the common people back in the arse of the plane, no airs or graces. I always respected him in politics, he seemed that much more honourable than the likes of some of the crooks we have had as Taoiseach. And yes he deserves a state funeral.

RIP Garrett Fitzgerald.

RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2011, 12:27:14 PM
RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

I would give him the same respect he gave the Hunger strikers.

Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

Quote from: glens abu on May 20, 2011, 01:37:34 PM

Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2011, 12:27:14 PM
RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

I would give him the same respect he gave the Hunger strikers.

There was more than enough food for them to eat, they committed suicide.

RI.P.. A good man who i'm sure had the thoughts of all Irish people in his works. Wonder what price you can get for a double, along with Thatcher this year?  :)

Quote from: glens abu on May 20, 2011, 01:37:34 PM

Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2011, 12:27:14 PM
RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

I would give him the same respect he gave the Hunger strikers.

What is it about Provo supporters who think everyone should have given them everything they wanted, when they wanted and how they wanted it.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 19, 2011, 03:59:18 PM

Quote from: Blowitupref on May 19, 2011, 03:57:31 PM
The man deserves a great send off RIP Garret

I hope this dose not sound petty but I hope there is no state funeral, it is not the time or place to flitter away money on such things. It was a disgrace Haughey ever got one.

Son, if Eamon DeValera could give Eoin O'Duffy a state funeral in 1944 when the country was a damn sight more broke than it is now we can bury Garret right this weekend. He deserves that for his role in public life.

As to his legacy, I'd agree with Ulick and Ross Matt. He was a good man but he was not a good Taoiseach. On the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, Derek Davis has a very powerful letter about them in today's Irish Times. People ought to read it.

On the 1981 election, it's a little discussed thing but Haughey's original plan was to announce the election at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis in February. And then the Stardust fire happened on Valentine's Day and the Ard Fheis was postponed a mark of respect.

Then, when the election did happen, the hunger strikers had started dying and that cost Haughey seats. People forget what those times were like. Even now, as a adult looking back on my child's work, the country was in much worse shape then than it is now, any way you slice it.

God rest poor Garret. Whatever failings he had, I don't think even his harshest critics could call him a cynic. That makes him unusual in any country's public life.

Credit has to be given to Garret for taking the steps to move Ireland out of the dark ages. I remember the divorce referendum in the 80s and how the local clergy had painted all the roads in our town in big bold letters: Vote No. The paint was there for years afterwards. Ireland was a narrow minded place back then. The Church wielded huge influence. That referendum was lost. But Garret, while being a religious man himself, was the first leader of the country to take on the church. And remember the uproar when condoms were finally legalised. Yes, that was the Ireland we had back then.

RIP Garret Fitzgerald.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 20, 2011, 07:36:16 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 20, 2011, 01:37:34 PM

Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2011, 12:27:14 PM
RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

I would give him the same respect he gave the Hunger strikers.

There was more than enough food for them to eat, they committed suicide.

Take me home to Mayo :-[ :-[ :-[

Quote from: Gaffer on May 20, 2011, 08:44:15 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 20, 2011, 01:37:34 PM

Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2011, 12:27:14 PM
RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

I would give him the same respect he gave the Hunger strikers.

What is it about Provo supporters who think everyone should have given them everything they wanted, when they wanted and how they wanted it.

All I said was I would give him the same respect he gave to the hunger strikers,whats your problem with that.Did you not think he gave the hunger strikers and their families respect?

Quote from: Ulick on May 20, 2011, 10:46:01 AM
Eventually Garret paused, looked over his glasses and asked in his naive way: "I'm not going too fast, am I?"  A voice from the fifth row, belonging to one Seamus McCotter from Swatragh Co Derry (one of Charlie Haughey's many northern cousins, as it happens) responded in an audible whisper: "You're goin' like a f**king 'puter!" [= computer].  Garret seemed genuinely baffled when the lecture theatre exploded in a yell of laughter.

Lol. Up the Swa

Quote from: glens abu on May 23, 2011, 09:36:55 AM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 20, 2011, 07:36:16 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 20, 2011, 01:37:34 PM

Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2011, 12:27:14 PM
RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

I would give him the same respect he gave the Hunger strikers.

There was more than enough food for them to eat, they committed suicide.

Take me home to Mayo :-[ :-[ :-[

That probably sailed over his head.

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 23, 2011, 12:21:20 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 23, 2011, 09:36:55 AM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 20, 2011, 07:36:16 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 20, 2011, 01:37:34 PM

Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2011, 12:27:14 PM
RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

I would give him the same respect he gave the Hunger strikers.

There was more than enough food for them to eat, they committed suicide.

Take me home to Mayo :-[ :-[ :-[

That probably sailed over his head.

For info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gaughan_(Irish_republican) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gaughan_(Irish_republican))

Quote from: muppet on May 23, 2011, 12:39:09 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 23, 2011, 12:21:20 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 23, 2011, 09:36:55 AM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 20, 2011, 07:36:16 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 20, 2011, 01:37:34 PM

Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2011, 12:27:14 PM
RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

I would give him the same respect he gave the Hunger strikers.

There was more than enough food for them to eat, they committed suicide.

Take me home to Mayo :-[ :-[ :-[

That probably sailed over his head.

For info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gaughan_(Irish_republican) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gaughan_(Irish_republican))

Not to mention Frank Stagg, another Mayo man, who's remains were headed to Dublin Airport (having been flown home from England), but were re-directed to Shannon airport, by the Fine Gael/Labour Government, who had the remains seized by special branch.

Taken from The Bobby Sands Trust:
"In order that he be afforded a Republican funeral, Stagg stated in his will that his body should be entrusted to Derek Highstead, then Sinn Féin organiser in England. The Wakefield coroner complied with his request......On Saturday, 21st February, Requiem Mass, boycotted by almost all his relatives, was held. His body was taken to Ballina where it was brought by Special Branch men to a grave some 70 yards from the Republican Plot in Leigue Cemetery, where he had asked to be buried. In order to prevent any re-interment by republicans, the Special Branch afterwards poured six feet of concrete on top of the coffin."

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 23, 2011, 12:55:03 PM

Quote from: muppet on May 23, 2011, 12:39:09 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 23, 2011, 12:21:20 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 23, 2011, 09:36:55 AM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 20, 2011, 07:36:16 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 20, 2011, 01:37:34 PM

Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2011, 12:27:14 PM
RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

Yeah but that was sorted and he now rests with his friend and comrade Michael Gaughan

I would give him the same respect he gave the Hunger strikers.

There was more than enough food for them to eat, they committed suicide.

Take me home to Mayo :-[ :-[ :-[

That probably sailed over his head.

For info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gaughan_(Irish_republican) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gaughan_(Irish_republican))

Not to mention Frank Stagg, another Mayo man, who's remains were headed to Dublin Airport (having been flown home from England), but were re-directed to Shannon airport, by the Fine Gael/Labour Government, who had the remains seized by special branch.

Taken from The Bobby Sands Trust:
"In order that he be afforded a Republican funeral, Stagg stated in his will that his body should be entrusted to Derek Highstead, then Sinn Féin organiser in England. The Wakefield coroner complied with his request......On Saturday, 21st February, Requiem Mass, boycotted by almost all his relatives, was held. His body was taken to Ballina where it was brought by Special Branch men to a grave some 70 yards from the Republican Plot in Leigue Cemetery, where he had asked to be buried. In order to prevent any re-interment by republicans, the Special Branch afterwards poured six feet of concrete on top of the coffin."

Yeah but that was sorted and he now rests with his friend and comrade Michael Gaughan.Its a pity the government of the day in the 26 couldn't respect the dead.

Quote from: glens abu on May 23, 2011, 09:39:05 AM

Quote from: Gaffer on May 20, 2011, 08:44:15 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 20, 2011, 01:37:34 PM

Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2011, 12:27:14 PM
RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

I would give him the same respect he gave the Hunger strikers.

What is it about Provo supporters who think everyone should have given them everything they wanted, when they wanted and how they wanted it.

All I said was I would give him the same respect he gave to the hunger strikers,whats your problem with that.Did you not think he gave the hunger strikers and their families respect?

So you didn t like Fitzgerald attitude to the Hunger Strikers. Maybe he didn t see them as freedom fighters but as part of organisations who were only good at killing people whom he found abhorrant !

Quote from: glens abu on May 23, 2011, 01:50:31 PM
Its a pity the government of the day in the 26 couldn't respect the dead.

Its a pity alright. #irony

Quote from: Gaffer on May 23, 2011, 09:17:08 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 23, 2011, 09:39:05 AM

Quote from: Gaffer on May 20, 2011, 08:44:15 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 20, 2011, 01:37:34 PM

Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2011, 12:27:14 PM
RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

I would give him the same respect he gave the Hunger strikers.

What is it about Provo supporters who think everyone should have given them everything they wanted, when they wanted and how they wanted it.

All I said was I would give him the same respect he gave to the hunger strikers,whats your problem with that.Did you not think he gave the hunger strikers and their families respect?

So you didn t like Fitzgerald attitude to the Hunger Strikers. Maybe he didn t see them as freedom fighters but as part of organisations who were only good at killing people whom he found abhorrant !

Got it at last Gaffer,so as I said I will pay him the same respect as he paid the Hunger strikers,but I would have thought the leader of a country and someone who was supposed to be a humanitarian could have at least agreed to meet their families afterall they had killed none.Then again to do that he might have had to grow a pair before he faced Maggie who no doubt would have slapped his wrist for going against her instructions.So no respect from me as I found him abhorrent. 

Quote from: muppet on May 23, 2011, 10:36:10 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 23, 2011, 01:50:31 PM
Its a pity the government of the day in the 26 couldn't respect the dead.

Its a pity alright. #irony

Yes muppet but I am only on a GAA forum these people are supposed to lead by example and  cherish all the children of the nation equally

Quote from: glens abu on May 24, 2011, 09:33:56 AM

Quote from: Gaffer on May 23, 2011, 09:17:08 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 23, 2011, 09:39:05 AM

Quote from: Gaffer on May 20, 2011, 08:44:15 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 20, 2011, 01:37:34 PM

Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2011, 12:27:14 PM
RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

I would give him the same respect he gave the Hunger strikers.

What is it about Provo supporters who think everyone should have given them everything they wanted, when they wanted and how they wanted it.

All I said was I would give him the same respect he gave to the hunger strikers,whats your problem with that.Did you not think he gave the hunger strikers and their families respect?

So you didn t like Fitzgerald attitude to the Hunger Strikers. Maybe he didn t see them as freedom fighters but as part of organisations who were only good at killing people whom he found abhorrant !

Got it at last Gaffer,so as I said I will pay him the same respect as he paid the Hunger strikers,but I would have thought the leader of a country and someone who was supposed to be a humanitarian could have at least agreed to meet their families afterall they had killed none.Then again to do that he might have had to grow a pair before he faced Maggie who no doubt would have slapped his wrist for going against her instructions.So no respect from me as I found him abhorrent.

have to agree with glens abu - it's all right for the lads from the 26 slating our freedom fighters but holding up the previous generation as heroes - let's be clear on this, during those dark days we always looked to the south for leadership and at the very least solidarity - to ignore the request to meet the families of these brave men as it was against the 'iron lady's wishes' was nothing short of cowardice and a dereliction of duty especially given that at that time he was bound under articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution to claim the entire island as his jurisdiction.

when our backs were against the wall he was found wanting - utterly unforgivable

Quote from: muppet on May 23, 2011, 10:36:10 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 23, 2011, 01:50:31 PM
Its a pity the government of the day in the 26 couldn't respect the dead.

Its a pity alright. #irony

"it's nearly time we had a little less respect for the dead, an' a little more regard for the living." - Juno Boyle, Act II

Quote from: Tubberman on May 24, 2011, 10:15:16 AM

Quote from: muppet on May 23, 2011, 10:36:10 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 23, 2011, 01:50:31 PM
Its a pity the government of the day in the 26 couldn't respect the dead.

Its a pity alright. #irony

"it's nearly time we had a little less respect for the dead, an' a little more regard for the living." - Juno Boyle, Act II

I should have said the dying,sorry.

So you didn t like Fitzgerald attitude to the Hunger Strikers. Maybe he didn t see them as freedom fighters but as part of organisations who were only good at killing people whom he found abhorrant !
[/quote]

Got it at last Gaffer,so as I said I will pay him the same respect as he paid the Hunger strikers,but I would have thought the leader of a country and someone who was supposed to be a humanitarian could have at least agreed to meet their families afterall they had killed none.Then again to do that he might have had to grow a pair before he faced Maggie who no doubt would have slapped his wrist for going against her instructions.So no respect from me as I found him abhorrent.
[/quote]

Oh I got you first time Glen. I realised  that you were a provo lover who felt that Garrett Fitzgerald should have done what the Provos wanted him to do. Garett was representing the views of the majority of nationalists both north and south at that time who were totally opposed to the provos. He ll did what he believed to be right. I wouldn t think he would have cared two hoots what you thought .

Quote from: Gaffer on May 24, 2011, 05:54:05 PM


So you didn t like Fitzgerald attitude to the Hunger Strikers. Maybe he didn t see them as freedom fighters but as part of organisations who were only good at killing people whom he found abhorrant !

Got it at last Gaffer,so as I said I will pay him the same respect as he paid the Hunger strikers,but I would have thought the leader of a country and someone who was supposed to be a humanitarian could have at least agreed to meet their families afterall they had killed none.Then again to do that he might have had to grow a pair before he faced Maggie who no doubt would have slapped his wrist for going against her instructions.So no respect from me as I found him abhorrent.
[/quote]

Oh I got you first time Glen. I realised  that you were a provo lover who felt that Garrett Fitzgerald should have done what the Provos wanted him to do. Garett was representing the views of the majority of nationalists both north and south at that time who were totally opposed to the provos. He ll did what he believed to be right. I wouldn t think he would have cared two hoots what you thought .
[/quote]

Your spot on again Gaffer,my respect lies with the Hunger strikers,along with the tens of thousands who voted for them ,the hundreds of thousands who attended their funerals.They will be remembered forever in song and verse,and their names and writings quoted around the world were inslaved peoples struggle for freedom.In years to come heads of state will bow their heads in Remembrance as they do today to the hero's of 1916.Garret,well he will be lucky to fill 1/2 page in our history books.Sinn e

Quote from: glens abu on May 25, 2011, 09:24:36 AM

Quote from: Gaffer on May 24, 2011, 05:54:05 PM


So you didn t like Fitzgerald attitude to the Hunger Strikers. Maybe he didn t see them as freedom fighters but as part of organisations who were only good at killing people whom he found abhorrant !

Got it at last Gaffer,so as I said I will pay him the same respect as he paid the Hunger strikers,but I would have thought the leader of a country and someone who was supposed to be a humanitarian could have at least agreed to meet their families afterall they had killed none.Then again to do that he might have had to grow a pair before he faced Maggie who no doubt would have slapped his wrist for going against her instructions.So no respect from me as I found him abhorrent.

Oh I got you first time Glen. I realised  that you were a provo lover who felt that Garrett Fitzgerald should have done what the Provos wanted him to do. Garett was representing the views of the majority of nationalists both north and south at that time who were totally opposed to the provos. He ll did what he believed to be right. I wouldn t think he would have cared two hoots what you thought .
[/quote]

Your spot on again Gaffer,my respect lies with the Hunger strikers,along with the tens of thousands who voted for them ,the hundreds of thousands who attended their funerals.They will be remembered forever in song and verse,and their names and writings quoted around the world were inslaved peoples struggle for freedom.In years to come heads of state will bow their heads in Remembrance as they do today to the hero's of 1916.Garret,well he will be lucky to fill 1/2 page in our history books.Sinn e[/quote]


Well, if Garrett had decided to murder people , go to jail , go on hunger strike, die then maybe people wouldprobably  have been singing about him.

He was very successful in elections as well and over many years as well.  His policies got thousands of votes too ,

Quote from: glens abu on May 25, 2011, 09:24:36 AM
Your spot on again Gaffer,my respect lies with the Hunger strikers,along with the tens of thousands who voted for them ,the hundreds of thousands who attended their funerals.They will be remembered forever in song and verse,and their names and writings quoted around the world were inslaved peoples struggle for freedom.In years to come heads of state will bow their heads in Remembrance as they do today to the hero's of 1916.

I daresay the Hunger Strikers will be remembered all right, but by whom?

A few hundred, even a few thousand activists, who will continue to gather at gravesides and memorials at Easter and on various other anniversaries, to hear stirring speakers and tinny bands.

Meanwhile, this will pass right over the heads of the nearly six million Irish people who rightly or wrongly, consider they have better things to be doing with their time.

And I say this because when someone mentioned Michael Gaughan earlier, despite my having had to have been aware of him at the time of his death etc, when I opened his Wiki link, it didn't produce even the merest glimmer of a memory. Even with Frank Stagg, whilst I vaguely recognised it as the name of a hunger striker, I suspect this may only have been because I remember a quip* about him which someone made at the time.



* - I'll not repeat it, since I doubt it would be appreciated by many on this forum.

Quote from: glens abu on May 25, 2011, 09:24:36 AMGarret,well he will be lucky to fill 1/2 page in our history books.

Getting back on topic, whilst I completely disagreed with the way he and Mrs. Thatcher tried to impose the Anglo-Irish Agreement over the heads of virtually the entire Unionist population etc, nonetheless I remember Garret  as being a principled and honourable man, whose intentions were always noble.

I don't know how much he'll be remembered, but he surely deserves to be (imo).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY1mNzmD6Xw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Fuzzy clip of the Frank Stagg funeral with Garret interviewed in it.

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 25, 2011, 07:41:30 PM
.... I completely disagreed with the way he and Mrs. Thatcher tried to impose the Anglo-Irish Agreement over the heads of virtually the entire Unionist population

Play me the world's smallest violin.

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 25, 2011, 07:41:30 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 25, 2011, 09:24:36 AM
Your spot on again Gaffer,my respect lies with the Hunger strikers,along with the tens of thousands who voted for them ,the hundreds of thousands who attended their funerals.They will be remembered forever in song and verse,and their names and writings quoted around the world were inslaved peoples struggle for freedom.In years to come heads of state will bow their heads in Remembrance as they do today to the hero's of 1916.

I daresay the Hunger Strikers will be remembered all right, but by whom?

A few hundred, even a few thousand activists, who will continue to gather at gravesides and memorials at Easter and on various other anniversaries, to hear stirring speakers and tinny bands.

Meanwhile, this will pass right over the heads of the nearly six million Irish people who rightly or wrongly, consider they have better things to be doing    with their time.

And I say this because when someone mentioned Michael Gaughan earlier, despite my having had to have been aware of him at the time of his death etc, when I opened his Wiki link, it didn't produce even the merest glimmer of a memory. Even with Frank Stagg, whilst I vaguely recognised it as the name of a hunger striker, I suspect this may only have been because I remember a quip* about him which someone made at the time.



* - I'll not repeat it, since I doubt it would be appreciated by many on this forum.

Quote from: glens abu on May 25, 2011, 09:24:36 AMGarret,well he will be lucky to fill 1/2 page in our history books.

Getting back on topic, whilst I completely disagreed with the way he and Mrs. Thatcher tried to impose the Anglo-Irish Agreement over the heads of virtually the entire Unionist population etc, nonetheless I remember Garret  as being a principled and honourable man, whose intentions were always noble.

I don't know how much he'll be remembered, but he surely deserves to be (     imo).

Fallen patriots are not forgotten in this country, I thought you of all people would no this. Aren't gaa pitches in some parts named after them!

For his next trick he's going to claim that the fallen patriots of 1916 have all been forgotten even though his own Queen paid her respects to them a few days ago.

Quote from: Gaffer on May 25, 2011, 06:22:19 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 25, 2011, 09:24:36 AM

Quote from: Gaffer on May 24, 2011, 05:54:05 PM


So you didn t like Fitzgerald attitude to the Hunger Strikers. Maybe he didn t see them as freedom fighters but as part of organisations who were only good at killing people whom he found abhorrant !

Got it at last Gaffer,so as I said I will pay him the same respect as he paid the Hunger strikers,but I would have thought the leader of a country and someone who was supposed to be a humanitarian could have at least agreed to meet their families afterall they had killed none.Then again to do that he might have had to grow a pair before he faced Maggie who no doubt would have slapped his wrist for going against her instructions.So no respect from me as I found him abhorrent.

Oh I got you first time Glen. I realised  that you were a provo lover who felt that Garrett Fitzgerald should have done what the Provos wanted him to do. Garett was representing the views of the majority of nationalists both north and south at that time who were totally opposed to the provos. He ll did what he believed to be right. I wouldn t think he would have cared two hoots what you thought .

Your spot on again Gaffer,my respect lies with the Hunger strikers,along with the tens of thousands who voted for them ,the hundreds of thousands who attended their funerals.They will be remembered forever in song and verse,and their names and writings quoted around the world were inslaved peoples struggle for freedom.In years to come heads of state will bow their heads in Remembrance as they do today to the hero's of 1916.Garret,well he will be lucky to fill 1/2 page in our history books.Sinn e[/quote]


Well, if Garrett had decided to murder people , go to jail , go on hunger strike, die then maybe people wouldprobably  have been singing about him.

He was very successful in elections as well and over many years as well.  His policies got thousands of votes too ,
[/quote]

Very good Gaffer well you and Evil Genius can start your wee commemoration committee for Garret think you three are well matched.I will stick to commemorating the real heroes of Ireland along with thousands every year.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 26, 2011, 01:03:08 AM
For his next trick he's going to claim that the fallen patriots of 1916 have all been forgotten even though his own Queen paid her respects to them a few days ago.

As far as successive dublin governments go, their ideals have certainly been forgotten  :-\

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 25, 2011, 09:46:51 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 25, 2011, 07:41:30 PM
.... I completely disagreed with the way he and Mrs. Thatcher tried to impose the Anglo-Irish Agreement over the heads of virtually the entire Unionist population

Play me the world's smallest violin.

Your sympathy is noted, even though it was neither solicited nor needed.

(The key word was "tried"  ;))

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 25, 2011, 07:41:30 PM


t I completely disagreed with the way he and Mrs. Thatcher tried to impose the Anglo-Irish Agreement over the heads of virtually the entire Unionist population

Mrs T. didnt pass much heed to the Unionist Veto on that one ;) ;D

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 26, 2011, 01:03:08 AM
For his next trick he's going to claim that the fallen patriots of 1916 have all been forgotten even though his own Queen paid her respects to them a few days ago.

Well I guess it's always possible that in another half century or so, History will be revised so as to "honour" the likes of Gaughan and Stagg - after all, it's so much easier after all who were alive at the time of their deeds have themselves passed away.

But as one who is more concerned with living history, I take some reassurance from the fact that Garret got a State Funeral, whereas Stagg* and Gaughan didn't.


* - Unless you count 100 free Air Miles from Dublin to Shannon and 6 foot of State-funded concrete  :D

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 26, 2011, 02:02:03 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 26, 2011, 01:03:08 AM
For his next trick he's going to claim that the fallen patriots of 1916 have all been forgotten even though his own Queen paid her respects to them a few days ago.

Well I guess it's always possible that in another half century or so, History will be revised so as to "honour" the likes of Gaughan and Stagg - after all, it's so much easier after everyone who was alive at the time of their deeds have themselves passed away.

But as one who is more concerned with living history, I take some reassurance from the fact that Garret got a State Funeral, whereas Stagg* and Gaughan didn't.


* - Unless you count 100 free Air Miles from Dublin to Shannon and 6 foot of State-funded concrete  :D

Aye that was so funny wasnt it..... ::)

Quote from: Rossfan on May 26, 2011, 01:57:01 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 25, 2011, 07:41:30 PM


t I completely disagreed with the way he and Mrs. Thatcher tried to impose the Anglo-Irish Agreement over the heads of virtually the entire Unionist population

Mrs T. didnt pass much heed to the Unionist Veto on that one ;) ;D

Indeed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Agreement :
Thatcher was taken aback by the ferocity of the unionist response and in her memoirs she said their reaction was "worse than anyone had predicted to me". She furthermore claimed that the Agreement was in the tradition of British governments refraining "from security policies that might alienate the Irish Government and Irish nationalist opinion in Ulster, in the hope of winning their support against the IRA". However Thatcher perceived the results of this to be disappointing because "our concessions alienated the Unionists without gaining the level of security co-operation we had a right to expect. In the light of this experience it is surely time to consider an alternative approach". In 1998 Thatcher said she regretted signing the Agreement and said of Enoch Powell's opposition to the Agreement: "I now believe that his assessment was right".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/220053.stm

P.S. The devolved Government envisaged by the AIA never actually materialised...  ;)

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:10:57 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 26, 2011, 02:02:03 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 26, 2011, 01:03:08 AM
For his next trick he's going to claim that the fallen patriots of 1916 have all been forgotten even though his own Queen paid her respects to them a few days ago.

Well I guess it's always possible that in another half century or so, History will be revised so as to "honour" the likes of Gaughan and Stagg - after all, it's so much easier after everyone who was alive at the time of their deeds have themselves passed away.

But as one who is more concerned with living history, I take some reassurance from the fact that Garret got a State Funeral, whereas Stagg* and Gaughan didn't.


* - Unless you count 100 free Air Miles from Dublin to Shannon and 6 foot of State-funded concrete  :D

Aye that was so funny wasnt it..... ::)

Funnier than bombing Coventry, I'd say.

Still, when Stagg and his fellow Volunteers conspired to bomb that city, they were only following a long and proud Republican tradition:

"Nine days before the outbreak of World War II, on 25 August 1939, Coventry was the scene of an early mainland bicycle bomb attack by the IRA. At 2:30 in the afternoon, a bomb exploded inside the carrier basket of a tradesman's bicycle that had been left outside a shop in Broadgate. The explosion killed five people, injured 100 more and caused extensive damage to shops in the area. The victims were John Corbett Arnott (15), Elsie Ansell (21), Rex Gentle (30), Gwilym Rowlands (50) and James Clay (82). Two IRA members and three others were put on trial for murder of one of the victims (Elsie Ansell). Three were acquitted and two convicted who were hanged in February 1940, although the identity of the man who rode the bicycle to Broadgate and planted the bomb was never discovered. The bomb plotters had been operating out of a house at 25 Clara Street."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Coventry

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 26, 2011, 02:33:05 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:10:57 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 26, 2011, 02:02:03 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 26, 2011, 01:03:08 AM
For his next trick he's going to claim that the fallen patriots of 1916 have all been forgotten even though his own Queen paid her respects to them a few days ago.

Well I guess it's always possible that in another half century or so, History will be revised so as to "honour" the likes of Gaughan and Stagg - after all, it's so much easier after everyone who was alive at the time of their deeds have themselves passed away.

But as one who is more concerned with living history, I take some reassurance from the fact that Garret got a State Funeral, whereas Stagg* and Gaughan didn't.


* - Unless you count 100 free Air Miles from Dublin to Shannon and 6 foot of State-funded concrete  :D

Aye that was so funny wasnt it..... ::)

Funnier than bombing Coventry, I'd say.

Still, when Stagg and his fellow Volunteers conspired to bomb that city, they were only following a long and proud Republican tradition:

"Nine days before the outbreak of World War II, on 25 August 1939, Coventry was the scene of an early mainland bicycle bomb attack by the IRA. At 2:30 in the afternoon, a bomb exploded inside the carrier basket of a tradesman's bicycle that had been left outside a shop in Broadgate. The explosion killed five people, injured 100 more and caused extensive damage to shops in the area. The victims were John Corbett Arnott (15), Elsie Ansell (21), Rex Gentle (30), Gwilym Rowlands (50) and James Clay (82). Two IRA members and three others were put on trial for murder of one of the victims (Elsie Ansell). Three were acquitted and two convicted who were hanged in February 1940, although the identity of the man who rode the bicycle to Broadgate and planted the bomb was never discovered. The bomb plotters had been operating out of a house at 25 Clara Street."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Coventry

Stagg wasn't charged with any bombing. He was charged with conspiracy to commit arson, and as The Bobby Sands Trust mentions, "There was little or no evidence to connect him with the charge. He was convicted under the notorious British Conspiracy Laws, brought in during the latter half of the 19th century to imprison Irish political activists without a fair trial."

Every so often you drop your mask of the mature, moral high-grounder, forward thinking Unionist, EG. Stagg's body was hijacked by the state and buried under six foot of concrete to ensure he wouldn't be buried where he stated he wanted to be buried, and you say he deserved it because of something which happened in 1939? And you find he state's treatment of his remains funny?

Don't know why I'm even bothering to reply to a cretin like you.

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:55:47 PM
Stagg's body was hijacked by the state and buried under six foot of concrete to ensure he wouldn't be buried where he stated he wanted to be buried,

The Cosgrave Government put a Garda on permanent watch to ensure Republicans wouldnt move the body to beside Michael Gaughan. (Pity they werent as active in seeking the guilty for the Dublin/Monaghan mass murders. >:()
The Garda was removed following the change of Govt. and the remains were subsequently re interred beside M.G. if I recall correctly.

Quote from: Rossfan on May 26, 2011, 04:01:43 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:55:47 PM
Stagg's body was hijacked by the state and buried under six foot of concrete to ensure he wouldn't be buried where he stated he wanted to be buried,

The Cosgrave Government put a Garda on permanent watch to ensure Republicans wouldnt move the body to beside Michael Gaughan. (Pity they werent as active in seeking the guilty for the Dublin/Monaghan mass murders. >:()
The Garda was removed following the change of Govt. and the remains were subsequently re interred beside M.G. if I recall correctly.

Six months they spent watching the grave, day and night, to ensure Stagg would not be buried where he wanted to be buried. Joe Cahill made a pledge that his body would be moved when the chance arose... which was a promise kept.

(http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/images/2006/02/09/frankstagg2.jpg) (http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/images/2006/01/26/Gaughan-and-Stagg-stone-1.jpg)

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:55:47 PMStagg wasn't charged with any bombing. He was charged with conspiracy to commit arson, and as The Bobby Sands Trust mentions, "There was little or no evidence to connect him with the charge. He was convicted under the notorious British Conspiracy Laws, brought in during the latter half of the 19th century to imprison Irish political activists without a fair trial."

You're quite correct. I should have said Fire-bombing:

"In April 1973, Stagg was arrested with six others alleged to comprise an IRA unit planning a campaign in Coventry. He was tried at Birmingham Crown Court. The jury found three of the seven not guilty; the remaining four were all found guilty of criminal damage and conspiracy to commit arson. Stagg and English born priest, Father Patrick Fell, were found to be the unit's commanding officers; Stagg was given a ten-year sentence and Fell twelve years. Thomas Gerald Rush was given seven years and Anthony Roland Lynch, who was also found guilty of possessing articles with intent to destroy property, namely nitric acid, balloons, wax and sodium chlorate, was given ten years"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Stagg

(Btw, sorry to have to quote Wiki - I appreciate it doesn't have the authority or independence of a body like 'The Bobby Sands Trust'... ::) )

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:55:47 PMEvery so often you drop your mask of the mature, moral high-grounder, forward thinking Unionist, EG.

And where have I ever claimed to be a "mature, moral high-grounder, forward thinker"? ("Unionist" I'll accept).

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:55:47 PMStagg's body was hijacked by the state and buried under six foot of concrete to ensure he wouldn't be buried where he stated he wanted to be buried, and you say he deserved it because of something which happened in 1939?

No, I do not say that. The fact is, the democratically elected Government of the Republic determined that his funeral would not be exploited by the proscribed organisation to which he belonged, as part of a campaign to subvert the State.
As such, I believe they (the State) were quite entitled to do so.

The reference to Coventry came because when I looked up Stagg, I saw that he was conspiring in Coventry, which brought to mind previous Republican "active service" in that same city, a mere generation before.

You clearly revere the memory of Stagg, yet my point was that he was only following in a long tradition of murder and mayhem etc. Do you hold the two IRA men who were hanged in Coventry in 1940 in the same reverence? Are they, too, heroes of yours? (We may assume they were the sort of people who inspired Stagg, after all)

Or did your education in the History of Irish Republicanism perhaps gloss over such inconvenient operations as the Coventry bombing?  ::)

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:55:47 PMAnd you find he state's treatment of his remains funny?

Well, it's hardly Comedy Store material, but I was mildly amused by the contrast between a "State Funeral" and a "State-Funded" one.

Unless, of course, you mean that it was disrespectful of me to introduce (ahem) levity to such (ahem) grave matters. To which I would reply that to be disrespectful to someone requires that that someone deserved some respect in the first place. And this "mature, moral high-ground, forward thinking" Unionist accords none of that to the likes of Stagg...

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:55:47 PMDon't know why I'm even bothering to reply to a cretin like you.

I know - it must be embarrassing to be outwitted by a cretin...  ;)

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 26, 2011, 05:00:48 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:55:47 PMStagg wasn't charged with any bombing. He was charged with conspiracy to commit arson, and as The Bobby Sands Trust mentions, "There was little or no evidence to connect him with the charge. He was convicted under the notorious British Conspiracy Laws, brought in during the latter half of the 19th century to imprison Irish political activists without a fair trial."

You're quite correct. I should have said Fire-bombing:

"In April 1973, Stagg was arrested with six others alleged to comprise an IRA unit planning a campaign in Coventry. He was tried at Birmingham Crown Court. The jury found three of the seven not guilty; the remaining four were all found guilty of criminal damage and conspiracy to commit arson. Stagg and English born priest, Father Patrick Fell, were found to be the unit's commanding officers; Stagg was given a ten-year sentence and Fell twelve years. Thomas Gerald Rush was given seven years and Anthony Roland Lynch, who was also found guilty of possessing articles with intent to destroy property, namely nitric acid, balloons, wax and sodium chlorate, was given ten years"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Stagg

(Btw, sorry to have to quote Wiki - I appreciate it doesn't have the authority or independence of a body like 'The Bobby Sands Trust'... ::) )

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:55:47 PMEvery so often you drop your mask of the mature, moral high-grounder, forward thinking Unionist, EG.

And where have I ever claimed to be a "mature, moral high-grounder, forward thinker"? ("Unionist" I'll accept).

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:55:47 PMStagg's body was hijacked by the state and buried under six foot of concrete to ensure he wouldn't be buried where he stated he wanted to be buried, and you say he deserved it because of something which happened in 1939?

No, I do not say that. The fact is, the democratically elected Government of the Republic determined that his funeral would not be exploited by the proscribed organisation to which he belonged, as part of a campaign to subvert the State.
As such, I believe they (the State) were quite entitled to do so.

The reference to Coventry came because when I looked up Stagg, I saw that he was conspiring in Coventry, which brought to mind previous Republican "active service" in that same city, a mere generation before.

You clearly revere the memory of Stagg, yet my point was that he was only following in a long tradition of murder and mayhem etc. Do you hold the two IRA men who were hanged in Coventry in 1940 in the same reverence? Are they, too, heroes of yours? (We may assume they were the sort of people who inspired Stagg, after all)

Or did your education in the History of Irish Republicanism perhaps gloss over such inconvenient operations as the Coventry bombing?  ::)

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:55:47 PMAnd you find he state's treatment of his remains funny?

Well, it's hardly Comedy Store material, but I was mildly amused by the contrast between a "State Funeral" and a "State-Funded" one.

Unless, of course, you mean that it was disrespectful of me to introduce (ahem) levity to such (ahem) grave matters. To which I would reply that to be disrespectful to someone requires that that someone deserved some respect in the first place. And this "mature, moral high-ground, forward thinking" Unionist accords none of that to the likes of Stagg...

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 02:55:47 PMDon't know why I'm even bothering to reply to a cretin like you.

I know - it must be embarrassing to be outwitted by a cretin...  ;)

More long windedness and multiple smilies, while saying nothing of substance. Your very first point for instance - does that wikipedia quote contradict anything I originally posted?
Good luck to you. I'd rather not taint the name of Frank Stagg by discussing his "trial" and the FG hijacking of his remains with a cretin who finds it funny. Adios.

Ohhh, better not forget the multiple smilies...
::)  ;)  ::) ;) ::)

I think it was Emmet Stagg and his sister in law (Frank's wife) who went against his wishes and wanted him buried in the family plot, rather than in the republican plot.

Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on May 26, 2011, 05:22:08 PM
I think it was Emmet Stagg and his sister in law (Frank's wife) who went against his wishes and wanted him buried in the family plot, rather than in the republican plot.

While his own stated wish, and that of two of his brothers, and the man he entrusted to look after his remains all were ignored by FG.

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 05:30:04 PM

Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on May 26, 2011, 05:22:08 PM
I think it was Emmet Stagg and his sister in law (Frank's wife) who went against his wishes and wanted him buried in the family plot, rather than in the republican plot.

While his own stated wish, and that of two of his brothers, and the man he entrusted to look after his remains all were ignored by FG.

Emmet Stagg is a Labour man. Not Fine Gael.

[

So you didn t like Fitzgerald attitude to the Hunger Strikers. Maybe he didn t see them as freedom fighters but as part of organisations who were only good at killing people whom he found abhorrant !
[/quote]

Got it at last Gaffer,so as I said I will pay him the same respect as he paid the Hunger strikers,but I would have thought the leader of a country and someone who was supposed to be a humanitarian could have at least agreed to meet their families afterall they had killed none.Then again to do that he might have had to grow a pair before he faced Maggie who no doubt would have slapped his wrist for going against her instructions.So no respect from me as I found him abhorrent.
[/quote]

 

Oh I got you first time Glen. I realised  that you were a provo lover who felt that Garrett Fitzgerald should have done what the Provos wanted him to do. Garett was representing the views of the majority of nationalists both north and south at that time who were totally opposed to the provos. He ll did what he believed to be right. I wouldn t think he would have cared two hoots what you thought .
[/quote]



Well, if Garrett had decided to murder people , go to jail , go on hunger strike, die then maybe people wouldprobably  have been singing about him.

He was very successful in elections as well and over many years as well.  His policies got thousands of votes too ,
[/quote]

Very good Gaffer well you and Evil Genius can start your wee commemoration committee for Garret think you three are well matched.I will stick to commemorating the real heroes of Ireland along with thousands every year.
[/quote]

Real heroes?  Do me a favour . Maybe to you and a few hundred others nowadays, Same few hundred every year.



WE

Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on May 26, 2011, 05:37:03 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 05:30:04 PM

Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on May 26, 2011, 05:22:08 PM
I think it was Emmet Stagg and his sister in law (Frank's wife) who went against his wishes and wanted him buried in the family plot, rather than in the republican plot.

While his own stated wish, and that of two of his brothers, and the man he entrusted to look after his remains all were ignored by FG.

Emmet Stagg is a Labour man. Not Fine Gael.

I don't remember saying he was either to be fair! I was referring to the Cosgrave government of the day.

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 26, 2011, 01:52:13 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 25, 2011, 09:46:51 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 25, 2011, 07:41:30 PM
.... I completely disagreed with the way he and Mrs. Thatcher tried to impose the Anglo-Irish Agreement over the heads of virtually the entire Unionist population

Play me the world's smallest violin.

Your sympathy is noted, even though it was neither solicited nor needed.

(The key word was "tried"  ;))

You see here's what gets me about the Anglo Irish Agreement and the collective hysterical nervous breakdown that your crowd had when it was signed. Yiz are fond of whinging about how something could be imposed on the majority against their wishes.  Yet the very partition that your entire political ideology is based upon was a prime example of something being imposed on the majority in Ireland against their wishes (and don't get me started about the threat of "immediate and terrible war" that backed it up).

Yiz are democrats when it suits youse, aren't you?

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 23, 2011, 12:21:20 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 23, 2011, 09:36:55 AM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 20, 2011, 07:36:16 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 20, 2011, 01:37:34 PM

Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2011, 12:27:14 PM
RIP Garret. The fact that the SF cabal here can't find it in themselves to exhibit a little generosity of spirit even on the occasion of his wake, in defiance of the best Irish tradition, says a lot about them and indeed about him.

I would give him the same respect he gave the Hunger strikers.

There was more than enough food for them to eat, they committed suicide.

Take me home to Mayo :-[ :-[ :-[

That probably sailed over his head.

No it did not, I just noticed this as I haven't been on my laptop as much the last 2 days.

Quote from: glens abu on May 25, 2011, 09:24:36 AM

Quote from: Gaffer on May 24, 2011, 05:54:05 PM


So you didn t like Fitzgerald attitude to the Hunger Strikers. Maybe he didn t see them as freedom fighters but as part of organisations who were only good at killing people whom he found abhorrant !

Got it at last Gaffer,so as I said I will pay him the same respect as he paid the Hunger strikers,but I would have thought the leader of a country and someone who was supposed to be a humanitarian could have at least agreed to meet their families afterall they had killed none.Then again to do that he might have had to grow a pair before he faced Maggie who no doubt would have slapped his wrist for going against her instructions.So no respect from me as I found him abhorrent.

Oh I got you first time Glen. I realised  that you were a provo lover who felt that Garrett Fitzgerald should have done what the Provos wanted him to do. Garett was representing the views of the majority of nationalists both north and south at that time who were totally opposed to the provos. He ll did what he believed to be right. I wouldn t think he would have cared two hoots what you thought .
[/quote]

Your spot on again Gaffer,my respect lies with the Hunger strikers,along with the tens of thousands who voted for them ,the hundreds of thousands who attended their funerals.They will be remembered forever in song and verse,and their names and writings quoted around the world were inslaved peoples struggle for freedom.In years to come heads of state will bow their heads in Remembrance as they do today to the hero's of 1916.Garret,well he will be lucky to fill 1/2 page in our history books.Sinn e
[/quote]

As to the opposed to the hundreds of thousands North and South who voted in direct opposition to these folks. Well I won't ever bow my head for them and will always keep a fond soft for our former Taoiseach.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 26, 2011, 06:43:51 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 26, 2011, 01:52:13 PM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 25, 2011, 09:46:51 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 25, 2011, 07:41:30 PM
.... I completely disagreed with the way he and Mrs. Thatcher tried to impose the Anglo-Irish Agreement over the heads of virtually the entire Unionist population

Play me the world's smallest violin.

Your sympathy is noted, even though it was neither solicited nor needed.

(The key word was "tried"  ;))

You see here's what gets me about the Anglo Irish Agreement and the collective hysterical nervous breakdown that your crowd had when it was signed.

"... the collective hysterical nervous breakdown"?
What on earth does that mean?  ???

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 26, 2011, 06:43:51 PMYiz are fond of whinging about how something could be imposed on the majority against their wishes.  Yet the very partition that your entire political ideology is based upon was a prime example of something being imposed on the majority in Ireland against their wishes (and don't get me started about the threat of "immediate and terrible war" that backed it up).

Yiz are democrats when it suits youse, aren't you?

Can't/don't speak for all of Unionism (obviously), so you might drop this "yiz" and "youse" etc.

Anyhow, this particular Unionist's views are entirely consistent.

Namely, just as it was wrong to try to override the wishes of the majority of people in the south of Ireland who wanted Independence by 1921, imo it would have been wrong to override the wishes of the majority in the north of Ireland who wanted Union.
Similarly, it was wrong of Fitzgerald and Thatcher to try to ride roughshod over the wishes of the majority with the AIA in 1985. (especially since it was not just the virtual unanimity of Unionists who opposed it, but also SF i.e. the only NI party supporting it were the SDLP and the then tiny Alliance Party).

Of course, I don't expect you to accept Partition, or even the right of people like me to make our case for Partition. However, I would remind you that in the two Referenda on the GFA, the overwhelming majority of people on the island acknowledged and endorsed Partition, both as being acceptable in principle and as the practical basis for government in Ireland.

Bit inconvenient, that, eh?  ::)

P.S. Speaking of which, on another thread you demanded a direct answer to a question you had posed, which I supplied. In return, I asked you for your direct answer to a question, which you continue to dodge. So I will try once more. Namely, you refuse to acknowledge Unionism as being a legitimate and proper political aspiration. Yet all participants to the GFA attest that they recognise all political aspirations and ideologies equally as being legitimate, explicitly including Unionism.
How can you claim to support the GFA, whilst at the same time refusing to accept a key aspect of its fundamental ethos?

Quote from: Nally Stand on May 26, 2011, 05:17:38 PMMore long windedness and multiple smilies, while saying nothing of substance. Your very first point for instance - does that wikipedia quote contradict anything I originally posted?
Good luck to you. I'd rather not taint the name of Frank Stagg by discussing his "trial" and the FG hijacking of his remains with a cretin who finds it funny. Adios.

Ohhh, better not forget the multiple smilies...
::)  ;)  ::) ;) ::)

Whatever.

Meanwhile, any chance of your answering the simple Yes/No question I posed, as follows?
"Do you hold the two IRA men who were hanged in Coventry in 1940 in the same reverence [as Staggs and Gaughan]? Are they, too, heroes of yours?

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 27, 2011, 03:05:54 PM

Quote from: glens abu on May 25, 2011, 09:24:36 AM

Quote from: Gaffer on May 24, 2011, 05:54:05 PM


So you didn t like Fitzgerald attitude to the Hunger Strikers. Maybe he didn t see them as freedom fighters but as part of organisations who were only good at killing people whom he found abhorrant !

Got it at last Gaffer,so as I said I will pay him the same respect as he paid the Hunger strikers,but I would have thought the leader of a country and someone who was supposed to be a humanitarian could have at least agreed to meet their families afterall they had killed none.Then again to do that he might have had to grow a pair before he faced Maggie who no doubt would have slapped his wrist for going against her instructions.So no respect from me as I found him abhorrent.

Oh I got you first time Glen. I realised  that you were a provo lover who felt that Garrett Fitzgerald should have done what the Provos wanted him to do. Garett was representing the views of the majority of nationalists both north and south at that time who were totally opposed to the provos. He ll did what he believed to be right. I wouldn t think he would have cared two hoots what you thought .

Your spot on again Gaffer,my respect lies with the Hunger strikers,along with the tens of thousands who voted for them ,the hundreds of thousands who attended their funerals.They will be remembered forever in song and verse,and their names and writings quoted around the world were inslaved peoples struggle for freedom.In years to come heads of state will bow their heads in Remembrance as they do today to the hero's of 1916.Garret,well he will be lucky to fill 1/2 page in our history books.Sinn e
[/quote]

As to the opposed to the hundreds of thousands North and South who voted in direct opposition to these folks. Well I won't ever bow my head for them and will always keep a fond soft for our former Taoiseach.
[/quote]

Good man yourself,but have a feeling it will be Garret Who in a couple of years.

What the hell is 'Sinn e' meant to mean?

Quote from: Maguire01 on May 27, 2011, 05:40:35 PM
What the hell is 'Sinn e' meant to mean?

Give me 5 and I will phone your Culture minister

QuoteAnyhow, this particular Unionist's views are entirely consistent.

Consistent with other unionists.

QuoteHowever, I would remind you that in the two Referenda on the GFA, the overwhelming majority of people on the island acknowledged and endorsed Partition, both as being acceptable in principle and as the practical basis for government in Ireland.

Where exactly did they endorse Partition in principle?

Garrett Fitzgerald lived for Ireland, he didn't die for Ireland. Whether or not his judgement was perfect in 1981, he went on to do a lot of good since then.

Quote from: Maguire01 on May 27, 2011, 05:40:35 PM
What the hell is 'Sinn e' meant to mean?

Apparently the conversation went like this:

Queen: An bhfuill tú ag putting articifial sweetener in do chuid tae?
Prince Phillip: Níl.
Iris: (falling to her knees) I always put sweetener in my tea your Holiness.
Queen: (to Peter) Is sweetener ait é sin Peter.
Peter: Bhí sí ar on acid act is fearr na e tabs anois. Sinn e.

Quote from: armaghniac on May 27, 2011, 06:14:09 PM

QuoteAnyhow, this particular Unionist's views are entirely consistent.

Consistent with other unionists.

When I said my views were consistent, I meant those views were consistent with each other when I expressed them in various posts. But I think you knew that, anyhow, otherwise you would have cited any inconsistency.

As for my views compared to other Unionists, they are sometimes similar (not "consistent") and sometimes different. That is because "ussuns" are not all the same, despite your cheap and (ahem) consistent attempts to so stereotype us, with your use of "yiz", "youse" and "your lot" etc.

Quote from: armaghniac on May 27, 2011, 06:14:09 PM

QuoteHowever, I would remind you that in the two Referenda on the GFA, the overwhelming majority of people on the island acknowledged and endorsed Partition, both as being acceptable in principle and as the practical basis for government in Ireland.

Where exactly did they endorse Partition in principle?

By voting for an Agreement which explicitly provided that the Border may not be removed unless and until a clear majority of the people of NI agree.
That is, even if a greater number of people in the ROI vote to remove the Border, that vote will not prevail.

Which is as good an endorsement, reinforcement even, of Partition as any.

QuoteWhich is as good an endorsement, reinforcement even, of Partition as any.

The majority of people in the 26 counties voted for the Treaty, but this did not imply approval in principle of it.
In both cases British military force lay in the background. 

Quotedespite your cheap and (ahem) consistent attempts to so stereotype us

I think it is cheap to call someone else cheap, especially a classy person like myself.

Quotewith your use of "yiz", "youse" and "your lot" etc

.

Where did I use these expressions?