I saw a report that came out that only one in ten of working class protestant male children in state school in Northern Ireland get to go to University.
That may be one of the single biggest failings of politicians of any hue in the North. Equality begins with education.
Where are the leaders of that community, and surely all political parties in the North should be doing something about this?
They're all too busy devising a cunning plan to stop MMcG becoming First Minister.
They were all happy when they were guaranteed jobs in the shipyard, or Shorts, or Daddy's business, or the Police, or UDR or British Army. Whereas caflicks had ingrained in them that they had to work hard to get an office job.
The recent soccer match between St Marys CBS and Boys Model is a clear illustration of the old Paisleyite mopery attitude that still exists. He hasnt gone away you know.
Quote from: Orior on March 21, 2011, 01:11:27 PM
They were all happy when they were guaranteed jobs in the shipyard, or Shorts, or Daddy's business, or the Police, or UDR or British Army. Whereas caflicks had ingrained in them that they had to work hard to get an office job.
The recent soccer match between St Marys CBS and Boys Model is a clear illustration of the old Paisleyite mopery attitude that still exists. He hasnt gone away you know.
What's the story here Orior? I knew there was boxing but assumed it was just regular post-match fisticuffs.
Quote from: Orior on March 21, 2011, 01:11:27 PM
They were all happy when they were guaranteed jobs in the shipyard, or Shorts, or Daddy's business, or the Police, or UDR or British Army. Whereas caflicks had ingrained in them that they had to work hard to get an office job.
That's my take on it as well. For years young protestants with a basic education walked into well paid jobs in the shipyards, shorts, cops and civil service with no questions asked.
When we were growing up it was hammered (literally) into you that you needed a good education to get a job and with the advent of fair employment legislation were in a better position to get jobs.
The attitude in some of these area's still hasn't changed that much and as the DUP and UUP don't really represent the working class protestants they're left in a void and leaderless.
Quote from: johnneycool on March 21, 2011, 01:36:54 PM
Quote from: Orior on March 21, 2011, 01:11:27 PM
They were all happy when they were guaranteed jobs in the shipyard, or Shorts, or Daddy's business, or the Police, or UDR or British Army. Whereas caflicks had ingrained in them that they had to work hard to get an office job.
That's my take on it as well. For years young protestants with a basic education walked into well paid jobs in the shipyards, shorts, cops and civil service with no questions asked.
When we were growing up it was hammered (literally) into you that you needed a good education to get a job and with the advent of fair employment legislation were in a better position to get jobs.
The attitude in some of these area's still hasn't changed that much and as the DUP and UUP don't really represent the working class protestants they're left in a void and leaderless.
Sure this is not unusual to Northern Ireland, I remember seeing a report reprinted in the Irish Independent about 5 years ago, showing that Leinster folk and in particular Dublin folk outside of the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown co.co area of the traditional County Dublin were far less likely to attend third level education than those from Connacht and Munster & Border Ulster (excluding Donegal, which bucked the trend in a negative fashion). The trend was similar enough for apprenticeships. The Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown areas of Dublin came first for 3'rd level participation, but from (Real) Traditional Counties in this order the top four were Galway, Mayo, Kerry, Cork, Sligo then moving on to the rest of Connacht and the rest of Munster. Followed by the South East, Followed by Cavan/Monaghan, followed by the Midlands, then the commuter belt and then County Dublin. For pretty obvious reasons the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown area of Dublin bucked Dubins trend, but for some bizzare reason Donegal bucked the West Coast trend to match some of the least affluent areas of Dublin. It was believed that people in Particular Connacht, and to a slightly lesser extend the Munster and border had to educated themselves to a higher degree (or get skills) to have a chance of earning a living in comparrison to those in close proximity to Dublin who seemed to fall into jobs. Before the Poles it was the Mayos who were the brains, brawn and skills that built Dublin.
(Of course some smart sod will try and use my poor spelling and grammar to try and disprove this ;) )
In fairness I am not sure what a politician can do if someone would rather stand on a street corner sniffing glue or drinking cider than get A Levels, the parenting should be looked at. You can't blame politicians for everything. This report is also probably designed to get more money pumped into these areas.
Quote from: Minder on March 21, 2011, 02:02:13 PM
In fairness I am not sure what a politician can do if someone would rather stand on a street corner sniffing glue or drinking cider than get A Levels, the parenting should be looked at. You can't blame politicians for everything. This report is also probably designed to get more money pumped into these areas.
I agree, what chance does a child have when his / her parents would rather stand on a street corner sniffing glue or drinking cider than get A Levels.
Quote from: Minder on March 21, 2011, 02:02:13 PM
In fairness I am not sure what a politician can do if someone would rather stand on a street corner sniffing glue or drinking cider than get A Levels, the parenting should be looked at. You can't blame politicians for everything. This report is also probably designed to get more money pumped into these areas.
I just wonder is there an Urban phenomenon working alongside the greater historical access to employment. As I tried to show with Dublin, Belfast a large'ish city can breed a contempt of education. Protestants in the North as far as I can see, have a greater percentage of their numbers living in, or close to Belfast than the Catholic community.
that's why the DUP are crying about 50/50 recruitment still in place in the PSNI, for too long, the lads just walked into cushy jobs with the RUC on a ration of 92/8, 50/50 reduces the odds too much, hence the squealing match
Quote from: Banana Man on March 21, 2011, 02:13:38 PM
that's why the DUP are crying about 50/50 recruitment still in place in the PSNI, for too long, the lads just walked into cushy jobs with the RUC on a ration of 92/8, 50/50 reduces the odds too much, hence the squealing match
They weren't doing too many taigs out of a job in the RUC I would have thought.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 21, 2011, 01:58:45 PM
Sure this is not unusual to Northern Ireland, I remember seeing a report reprinted in the Irish Independent about 5 years ago, showing that Leinster folk and in particular Dublin folk outside of the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown co.co area of the traditional County Dublin were far less likely to attend third level education than those from Connacht and Munster & Border Ulster (excluding Donegal, which bucked the trend in a negative fashion).
I'm not sure your comparison is valid here. The report doesn't highlight a geographical but a community division i.e. those from socially disadvantaged nationalist background are more likely achieve academic success than children from socially disadvantaged unionist background who may only be living half a mile away. As Minder says it'll be used to lever more money for these areas but that doesn't deny there is a problem or fully address the extent of the problem. Both the Burns report in 2001 and the Costello report in 2004 acknowledged this but also that children from both nationalist and unionist working class areas are very much less likely to succeed in education than those from middle class areas. These are precisely the reasons why Martin McGuinness abolished the 11+ and why Caitriona Ruane and the Catholic Church are trying to end academic selection altogether.
The Protestant community in the north suffers from a huge brain drain of the best educated who go to university in Scotland and England . Many of them never go back. So you're left with a sort of leaderless community. Protestant society in the North is still very class based innit. Susan McKay's book "an unsettled people" goes into the subject in depth. Even the supposedly mass market DUP is all about rank.
You can see it all in the quality of the Newsletter. It used to be a decent paper.
Seafoid I'm afraid the "brain drain" is a myth probably designed to explain away some of these problems or to account for the rising demographic of nationalists in further and higher education. In short there is no evidence to suggest that proportionally more Protestants than Catholics ever left for university elsewhere.
Quote from: Minder on March 21, 2011, 02:19:43 PM
Quote from: Banana Man on March 21, 2011, 02:13:38 PM
that's why the DUP are crying about 50/50 recruitment still in place in the PSNI, for too long, the lads just walked into cushy jobs with the RUC on a ration of 92/8, 50/50 reduces the odds too much, hence the squealing match
They weren't doing too many taigs out of a job in the RUC I would have thought.
that's my point minder, they had it handy walking straight in to the old RUC, that avenue is greatly reduced for them now and want 50/50 done away with
Quote from: Banana Man on March 21, 2011, 02:54:18 PM
Quote from: Minder on March 21, 2011, 02:19:43 PM
Quote from: Banana Man on March 21, 2011, 02:13:38 PM
that's why the DUP are crying about 50/50 recruitment still in place in the PSNI, for too long, the lads just walked into cushy jobs with the RUC on a ration of 92/8, 50/50 reduces the odds too much, hence the squealing match
They weren't doing too many taigs out of a job in the RUC I would have thought.
that's my point minder, they had it handy walking straight in to the old RUC, that avenue is greatly reduced for them now and want 50/50 done away with
Any taig thinking of joining the RUC would have a lot of considering to do even before thinking that discrimination might be an issue.
Quote from: johnneycool on March 21, 2011, 03:13:35 PM
Quote from: Banana Man on March 21, 2011, 02:54:18 PM
Quote from: Minder on March 21, 2011, 02:19:43 PM
Quote from: Banana Man on March 21, 2011, 02:13:38 PM
that's why the DUP are crying about 50/50 recruitment still in place in the PSNI, for too long, the lads just walked into cushy jobs with the RUC on a ration of 92/8, 50/50 reduces the odds too much, hence the squealing match
They weren't doing too many taigs out of a job in the RUC I would have thought.
that's my point minder, they had it handy walking straight in to the old RUC, that avenue is greatly reduced for them now and want 50/50 done away with
Any taig thinking of joining the RUC would have a lot of considering to do even before thinking that discrimination might be an issue.
Like what ditch they wanted to be found in.
The fact that most of the grammar schools in the north are Catholic also plays a significant role I imagine.
In Belfast alone in terms of grammar schools that many wokring class catholics would attend you have Rathmore, St. Mary's, Aquinas, St. Pat's Knock, St. Dominic's, Forthill (sp?), St. Malachy's. Anywhere else? The catholic non-grammar schools (to my mind, I've no evidence) would also send a lot more students to Uni than their counterparts.
Very few working class protestants would attend schools like Methody, Inst etc.
It's a scientific fact that Prods have smaller brains than Taigs.
Quote from: thebigfella on March 21, 2011, 03:25:47 PM
It's a scientific fact that Prods have smaller brains than Taigs.
their eyes are closer together n'all and they don't wash and breed like rabbits and eat their own babies.
Quote from: gallsman on March 21, 2011, 03:17:31 PM
In Belfast alone in terms of grammar schools that many wokring class catholics would attend you have Rathmore, St. Mary's, Aquinas, St. Pat's Knock, St. Dominic's, Forthill (sp?), St. Malachy's. Anywhere else? The catholic non-grammar schools (to my mind, I've no evidence) would also send a lot more students to Uni than their counterparts.
Very few working class protestants would attend schools like Methody, Inst etc.
State grammar schools also attract all classes IMHO - in the greater Belfast area - Inst , Wellington College, Grosvenor , Bloomfield Collegiate, Sullivan (which usually has as I understand it a faier number of Catholics in any event)) . My perception is that Methody doesn't really and Campbell College attracts less as it is fee paying.
I don't know the school at all, but I've been told that despite Campbell's status, a donkey with a wad of cash could get in.
Sullivan would get all religions I think, but might be more middle class.
I think that as a group the working class Unionist (or Loyalist) in the North will be left disenfranchised. David Ervine was a lone voice of reason and advocacy and his passing has created a void. The UUP and DUP seem to be courting the middle class and above in their constituencies and I see that as a recipe for disaster. This report if it is designed to encourage funding to address this, I think that is a great thing. Was it Eamon in Derry that sadi this was never a religious dispute but always a class dispute?
Quote from: seafoid on March 21, 2011, 02:24:59 PM
You can see it all in the quality of the Newsletter. It used to be a decent paper.
When was that?
Quote from: Ulick on March 21, 2011, 02:32:06 PM
Seafoid I'm afraid the "brain drain" is a myth probably designed to explain away some of these problems or to account for the rising demographic of nationalists in further and higher education. In short there is no evidence to suggest that proportionally more Protestants than Catholics ever left for university elsewhere.
What about this?
http://www.equalityni.org/archive/pdf/EducMigratFinalReportECNI090608.pdf
That is blocked for me, what does it say?
Just two quotes from the Executive Summary:
Previous research has demonstrated that those with a Protestant community background comprise a disproportionate amount of those leaving NI to study in Great Britain (GB). In 2005/06, 29% of NI domiciled under-graduate students migrated to GB to study, with the proportion of Protestants to Roman Catholics leaving NI being around 1.5 to 1. So 34% of Protestants leave compared to 23% of Roman Catholics and 49% of 'Others' (DENI School Leavers Survey 2005/6).
The total numbers of school leavers from Protestant and Roman Catholic communities leaving to study in GB are broadly similar, but proportionately many more Protestants out-migrate.
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 21, 2011, 07:37:37 PM
Just two quotes from the Executive Summary:
Previous research has demonstrated that those with a Protestant community background comprise a disproportionate amount of those leaving NI to study in Great Britain (GB). In 2005/06, 29% of NI domiciled under-graduate students migrated to GB to study, with the proportion of Protestants to Roman Catholics leaving NI being around 1.5 to 1. So 34% of Protestants leave compared to 23% of Roman Catholics and 49% of 'Others' (DENI School Leavers Survey 2005/6).
The total numbers of school leavers from Protestant and Roman Catholic communities leaving to study in GB are broadly similar, but proportionately many more Protestants out-migrate.
Obviously written by a prod!! propaganda and a myth for sure ;)
Yes, but the same report goes on to say:
"Following graduation, most students in the UK tend to remain in the region
of their HE institution. For NI domiciled students, regardless of university
attended, 81% are located in NI six months following graduation. While
care must be taken for consistency of data, HESA data indicate that 29%
of NI domiciled undergraduate students are in GB, while six months after
graduation some 19% are in GB; this suggests that a net 10% of NI
domiciles return to NI following graduation.
ˆHowever, further research is needed to determine the community
background of these graduates and the relative rates of return migration
for each community. Should the return rate for each community be the
same, then overall, educational out-migration and return would have a
disproportionate effect on the Protestant community, potentially reducing
the number of Protestants available for graduate jobs."
Quote from: MasterShake on March 21, 2011, 08:01:21 PM
Yes, but the same report goes on to say:
"Following graduation, most students in the UK tend to remain in the region
of their HE institution. For NI domiciled students, regardless of university
attended, 81% are located in NI six months following graduation. While
care must be taken for consistency of data, HESA data indicate that 29%
of NI domiciled undergraduate students are in GB, while six months after
graduation some 19% are in GB; this suggests that a net 10% of NI
domiciles return to NI following graduation.
ˆHowever, further research is needed to determine the community
background of these graduates and the relative rates of return migration
for each community. Should the return rate for each community be the
same, then overall, educational out-migration and return would have a
disproportionate effect on the Protestant community, potentially reducing
the number of Protestants available for graduate jobs."
But of those returning, there would have to be significantly higher proportion of Protestants than Catholics within that 10% to reverse the initial outward migration trend.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 21, 2011, 01:17:52 PM
Quote from: Orior on March 21, 2011, 01:11:27 PM
They were all happy when they were guaranteed jobs in the shipyard, or Shorts, or Daddy's business, or the Police, or UDR or British Army. Whereas caflicks had ingrained in them that they had to work hard to get an office job.
The recent soccer match between St Marys CBS and Boys Model is a clear illustration of the old Paisleyite mopery attitude that still exists. He hasnt gone away you know.
What's the story here Orior? I knew there was boxing but assumed it was just regular post-match fisticuffs.
At the end of the match a couple of Boys Model pupils and some parents got laid into one or two St Mary's players. The head of St Mary's called the police, and two puplis from Boys Model have been suspended.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/school-football-brawl-two-model-boys-suspended-15119135.html (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/school-football-brawl-two-model-boys-suspended-15119135.html)
Of course it was sectarian, but they wont admit that.
What is a mass brawl called when two Gaelic teams get stuck into each other after a match? Tribal? these things kick off all the time, handbags and I've seen worse at a local ladies football match.
Talking to one of the lads after the match, said it was no big deal, over-reaction. they were winding up the Model after scoring the winner (as you would) and it kicked off.
david irvine to his credit did try to highlight these lads plight apart form him its been sinn fein who have been pushing for help for them- mainly catriona, and shes getting no support from the politicians who are elected to represent them. having said that the schools are there, many kids do well out of them its their own choice- hoodies and hanging around or 4 years in college a huge student loan and then hoodies and hanging around.. ::)
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 08:57:07 PM
david irvine to his credit did try to highlight these lads plight apart form him its been sinn fein who have been pushing for help for them- mainly catriona, and shes getting no support from the politicians who are elected to represent them. having said that the schools are there, many kids do well out of them its their own choice- hoodies and hanging around or 4 years in college a huge student loan and then hoodies and hanging around.. ::)
Whilst I have no doubt Ruane's and Sinn Fein's intentions regarding education are in the right place there is no doubt they have made a complete balls of the thing.
Quote from: oakleafgael on March 21, 2011, 09:05:45 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 08:57:07 PM
David Irvine to his credit did try to highlight these lads plight apart form him its been sinn fein who have been pushing for help for them- mainly Catriona, and shes getting no support from the politicians who are elected to represent them. having said that the schools are there, many kids do well out of them its their own choice- hoodies and hanging around or 4 years in college a huge student loan and then hoodies and hanging around.. ::)
Whilst I have no doubt Ruane's and Sinn Fein's intentions regarding education are in the right place there is no doubt they have made a complete balls of the thing.
oakleaf it seems that you are blaming sinn fein for these kids lack of education. firstly to do any thing in stormont you need cross party support, secondly they have their own mlas who don't give a rats ass because they are gonna get in no matter what. the only thing sinn fein/republicans did to mess it up for the prods was to come in the democratic process thus negating the need for a huge security presence and all the ancillary industry that goes with it where they would have been guaranteed jobs
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 09:32:03 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on March 21, 2011, 09:05:45 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 08:57:07 PM
David Irvine to his credit did try to highlight these lads plight apart form him its been sinn fein who have been pushing for help for them- mainly Catriona, and shes getting no support from the politicians who are elected to represent them. having said that the schools are there, many kids do well out of them its their own choice- hoodies and hanging around or 4 years in college a huge student loan and then hoodies and hanging around.. ::)
Whilst I have no doubt Ruane's and Sinn Fein's intentions regarding education are in the right place there is no doubt they have made a complete balls of the thing.
oakleaf it seems that you are blaming sinn fein for these kids lack of education. firstly to do any thing in stormont you need cross party support, secondly they have their own mlas who don't give a rats ass because they are gonna get in no matter what. the only thing sinn fein/republicans did to mess it up for the prods was to come in the democratic process thus negating the need for a huge security presence and all the ancillary industry that goes with it where they would have been guaranteed jobs
Lawnseed,
You have missed my point, which is deviating from this topic, and more generally about the balls that Ruane has made of getting rid of the transfer test. The Unionist politiicians have never given a damn about the working classes and relied on rabble rousing to secure their votes in the past and this continues still.
Quote from: Banana Man on March 21, 2011, 02:13:38 PM
that's why the DUP are crying about 50/50 recruitment still in place in the PSNI, for too long, the lads just walked into cushy jobs with the RUC on a ration of 92/8, 50/50 reduces the odds too much, hence the squealing match
How many Prods are in the Garda?
Quote from: dillinger on March 21, 2011, 09:58:18 PM
Quote from: Banana Man on March 21, 2011, 02:13:38 PM
that's why the DUP are crying about 50/50 recruitment still in place in the PSNI, for too long, the lads just walked into cushy jobs with the RUC on a ration of 92/8, 50/50 reduces the odds too much, hence the squealing match
How many Prods are in the Garda?
What is the percentage of Protestants in the South?
Whats the percentage of Catholics in the North?
Hardly a like for like argument now is it?
2006 figures, 12 Prods in the Garda ;) i MAKE THAT 0.1% Something wrong there i would say.
Quote from: dillinger on March 21, 2011, 10:12:14 PM
2006 figures, 12 Prods in the Garda ;)
That's bullshit, show us the figures - and remember what was said earlier in the thread - the Newsletter doesn't count as a creditable source.
Quote from: dillinger on March 21, 2011, 10:12:14 PM
2006 figures, 12 Prods in the Garda ;)
You would think that. In truth though, most people don't give a flying what religion you are down here. Its a pity the same couldn't be said for the North.
Quote from: Ulick on March 21, 2011, 10:16:22 PM
Quote from: dillinger on March 21, 2011, 10:12:14 PM
2006 figures, 12 Prods in the Garda ;)
That's bullshit, show us the figures - and remember what was said earlier in the thread - the Newsletter doesn't count as a creditable source.
what would be a creditable source? Republican News
That's bullshit, show us the figures - and remember what was said earlier in the thread - the Newsletter doesn't count as a creditable source.
[/quote
Tell me different then. Can't show link at min. Friend of mine is a Guard in Droghada would confirm that's about right. He said that Guards used to give the Prods a hard time that so many left or would not join. Fair play to him he said it wouldn't happen in his station or he would knock the f**k out of them if they tried. I believe him there as he is a mean sod.
Quote from: oakleafgael on March 21, 2011, 09:36:24 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 09:32:03 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on March 21, 2011, 09:05:45 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 08:57:07 PM
David Irvine to his credit did try to highlight these lads plight apart form him its been sinn fein who have been pushing for help for them- mainly Catriona, and shes getting no support from the politicians who are elected to represent them. having said that the schools are there, many kids do well out of them its their own choice- hoodies and hanging around or 4 years in college a huge student loan and then hoodies and hanging around.. ::)
Whilst I have no doubt Ruane's and Sinn Fein's intentions regarding education are in the right place there is no doubt they have made a complete balls of the thing.
oakleaf it seems that you are blaming sinn fein for these kids lack of education. firstly to do any thing in stormont you need cross party support, secondly they have their own mlas who don't give a rats ass because they are gonna get in no matter what. the only thing sinn fein/republicans did to mess it up for the prods was to come in the democratic process thus negating the need for a huge security presence and all the ancillary industry that goes with it where they would have been guaranteed jobs
Lawnseed,
You have missed my point, which is deviating from this topic, and more generally about the balls that Ruane has made of getting rid of the transfer test. The Unionist politiicians have never given a damn about the working classes and relied on rabble rousing to secure their votes in the past and this continues still.
there is no transfer test oakleaf. its just grammar schools trying to continue cherry picking the 'brightest kids' then saying when the 'brightest kids' get the best results how great their school is. this system is open to legal challange and its only a matter of time.
i was quite surprised to find out that the royal in armagh was openlying canvassing catholic primary schools and 26 county schools to boost their numbers of 'brighter kids' because otherwise they have to take lesser ability prod kids to keep up their head count and their results average would fall making them no different than ordinary secondary schools ands therefore not worth paying extra for.
with less kids in the system schools are pumping this stuff and trying to create myths instead of actually trying to eduacate properly any dummy could teach 'bright kids' they learn easily. whats making catronias efforts look bad is the fact that numbers are falling and some schools are closing
Unionist politicians don't care about protestant working class communities - simple! As long as they turn out to support them when they need to play the sectarianism card.
My wee girl is doing the transfer test this November and should she pass she will go to a grammar school, if she doesn't she'll go to a secondary school. no big deal and no one gets hurt. Catronia sends here own kids to a Grammar school so what's good for her kids should be Ok for others surely?
Quote from: dillinger on March 21, 2011, 10:22:20 PM
That's bullshit, show us the figures - and remember what was said earlier in the thread - the Newsletter doesn't count as a creditable source.
[/quote
Tell me different then. Can't show link at min. Friend of mine is a Guard in Droghada would confirm that's about right. He said that Guards used to give the Prods a hard time that so many left or would not join. Fair play to him he said it wouldn't happen in his station or he would knock the f**k out of them if they tried. I believe him there as he is a mean sod.
CSO figures have the number at 214. If you Google it you'll also find a p.ie thread which debunks your Newsletter story.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 21, 2011, 10:28:56 PM
My wee girl is doing the transfer test this November and should she pass she will go to a grammar school, if she doesn't she'll go to a secondary school. no big deal and no one gets hurt. Catronia sends here own kids to a Grammar school so what's good for her kids should be Ok for others surely?
why milltown are you perpetuating this system by puting your child in the position where she may have to settle for '2nd best'. if no one took the 'trasnfer test' these schools would have to drop it and accept whom ever turned up
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 10:22:35 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on March 21, 2011, 09:36:24 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 09:32:03 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on March 21, 2011, 09:05:45 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 08:57:07 PM
David Irvine to his credit did try to highlight these lads plight apart form him its been sinn fein who have been pushing for help for them- mainly Catriona, and shes getting no support from the politicians who are elected to represent them. having said that the schools are there, many kids do well out of them its their own choice- hoodies and hanging around or 4 years in college a huge student loan and then hoodies and hanging around.. ::)
Whilst I have no doubt Ruane's and Sinn Fein's intentions regarding education are in the right place there is no doubt they have made a complete balls of the thing.
oakleaf it seems that you are blaming sinn fein for these kids lack of education. firstly to do any thing in stormont you need cross party support, secondly they have their own mlas who don't give a rats ass because they are gonna get in no matter what. the only thing sinn fein/republicans did to mess it up for the prods was to come in the democratic process thus negating the need for a huge security presence and all the ancillary industry that goes with it where they would have been guaranteed jobs
Lawnseed,
You have missed my point, which is deviating from this topic, and more generally about the balls that Ruane has made of getting rid of the transfer test. The Unionist politiicians have never given a damn about the working classes and relied on rabble rousing to secure their votes in the past and this continues still.
there is no transfer test oakleaf. its just grammar schools trying to continue cherry picking the 'brightest kids' then saying when the 'brightest kids' get the best results how great their school is. this system is open to legal challange and its only a matter of time.
i was quite surprised to find out that the royal in armagh was openlying canvassing catholic primary schools and 26 county schools to boost their numbers of 'brighter kids' because otherwise they have to take lesser ability prod kids to keep up their head count and their results average would fall making them no different than ordinary secondary schools ands therefore not worth paying extra for.
with less kids in the system schools are pumping this stuff and trying to create myths instead of actually trying to eduacate properly any dummy could teach 'bright kids' they learn easily. whats making catronias efforts look bad is the fact that numbers are falling and some schools are closing
Lawnseed the Royal is well down the pecking order of grammars in the North and has been taking lower ability kids for over 10 years which may be why they are down the pecking order. You and SF fan boys on here are the only people that don't truly believe Ruane fucked up a great education system. The voters told her as much at the last election. I am all for academic selection, just not at 11. Huge amounts of people would agree. She is forcing her political dogma on hardworking parents in the North. Maybe she should focus some attention on improving secondary schools instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water. In short, she's a ****.
She is looking forward to it. If she didn't want to do then she wouldn't do it. Thing is we are being fed some shite that its real bad and could damage their wee lives in the future!!
I didn't pass it, have never felt it was something that held me back, so that's another lie, IMHO
CSO figures have the number at 214. If you Google it you'll also find a p.ie thread which debunks your Newsletter story.
Not my story, looked at the P.ie thread and i think you added a 2. It shows 14, not 214. Why are you so sensitive about the lack of Prods in the Garda. Do you think bisas only works one way?
It is a great system for those it favours most but as Burns, Costello and this report shows it fails those who need it most.
Lawnseed, there aren't falling numbers in our schools. The last time this was discussed here I posted census figures to show there's actually been a small rise. The problem is with existing over-capacity.
Quote from: dillinger on March 21, 2011, 10:44:02 PM
CSO figures have the number at 214. If you Google it you'll also find a p.ie thread which debunks your Newsletter story.
Not my story, looked at the P.ie thread and i think you added a 2. It shows 14, not 214. Why are you so sensitive about the lack of Prods in the Garda. Do you think bisas only works one way?
Not sensitive at all, just objecting to your use of lies to further a discussion point. You obviously didn't read the thread to the end. The figure is 214, links to the CSO are there to prove the figure. You can't even produce the Newsletter link to the article you are quoting.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 21, 2011, 10:43:49 PM
She is looking forward to it. If she didn't want to do then she wouldn't do it. Thing is we are being fed some shite that its real bad and could damage their wee lives in the future!!
I didn't pass it, have never felt it was something that held me back, so that's another lie, IMHO
Kids arent allowed to fail in the 21st Century, be it school or sports.
Poor schools and poor teaching are failing children in some secondary schools not the fact that they failed the 11+. I went to a mixed ability non-grammar school and there were no barriers to achieving good results other than fellas in the class holding people back.
how do kids in the south manage without grammars v secondary. by allowing your kid to try the transfer test and perhaps failing you might think ah well sure it doesnt matter but your letting some fecker have the chance to say that at 11 yearsold your child wasnt 'bright enough' .. the poor thing hadnt the brains for a top school.. there is no difference in the teaching or teachers its a myth, its a shower pretending their school is better buy selecting kids 'suited' to 'their system.
Not sensitive at all, just objecting to your use of lies to further a discussion point. You obviously didn't read the thread to the end. The figure is 214, links to the CSO are there to prove the figure. You can't even produce the Newsletter link to the article
I was not quoting the news letter link, 1st iv'e seen it. What's the point in posting it as you have seen it. My source says he dosen't know off any Prods in the Guards and never has known
is it me or are our teacher training colleges turning out stoops
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 11:07:25 PM
how do kids in the south manage without grammars v secondary. by allowing your kid to try the transfer test and perhaps failing you might think ah well sure it doesnt matter but your letting some fecker have the chance to say that at 11 yearsold your child wasnt 'bright enough' .. the poor thing hadnt the brains for a top school.. there is no difference in the teaching or teachers its a myth, its a shower pretending their school is better buy selecting kids 'suited' to 'their system.
It doesn't have to be at 11. Well if they fail the test then maybe they aren't cut out for the top schools just like if you fail your driving test you aren't cut out for driving on the road with people who can. All the animals aren't equal, some are cut out for an academic stream and some for a vocational stream. Look at shit like X Factor etc and you'll see a whole generation of kids with a huge sense of entitlement because they've grown up without any experience of failure or knockbacks.
However, I will temper my argument with Ulick's very good point that there are a huge number of empty desk spaces. This makes no sense therefore it is likely to see continued amalgamation of schools and maybe there could be streaming within these schools. Streaming is academic selection by another name but it would not be possible to have all abilities in one class.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 21, 2011, 11:20:20 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 11:07:25 PM
how do kids in the south manage without grammars v secondary. by allowing your kid to try the transfer test and perhaps failing you might think ah well sure it doesnt matter but your letting some fecker have the chance to say that at 11 yearsold your child wasnt 'bright enough' .. the poor thing hadnt the brains for a top school.. there is no difference in the teaching or teachers its a myth, its a shower pretending their school is better buy selecting kids 'suited' to 'their system.
It doesn't have to be at 11. Well if they fail the test then maybe they aren't cut out for the top schools just like if you fail your driving test you aren't cut out for driving on the road with people who can. All the animals aren't equal, some are cut out for an academic stream and some for a vocational stream. Look at shit like X Factor etc and you'll see a whole generation of kids with a huge sense of entitlement because they've grown up without any experience of failure or knockbacks.
However, I will temper my argument with Ulick's very good point that there are a huge number of empty desk spaces. This makes no sense therefore it is likely to see continued amalgamation of schools and maybe there could be streaming within these schools. Streaming is academic selection by another name but it would not be possible to have all abilities in one class.
yes tony streaming is good enough within a school. i myself went on to 3rd level where for the first time in my life i shared a classroom with prods could believe how thick they were. they held the whole course up it was a joke. what surprised us taigs was that evertime there was a class test they were topping the class :o a wee bit of liberal marking done me thinks... just to take the bad look off it the wheels came off though when outside examiners landed.. btw these were all country lads not your typical hoodied townies
Quotehow do kids in the south manage without grammars v secondary.
As noted earlier if they live in Dubin 10 they don't go to third level, and are much less likely to do so than an equivalent area of West Belfast. However I don't think this campaign for the abolition of the 11+ took any interest in such matters.
There is a serious problem with Protestant areas, for the reason noted. Protestant students in England or even the South are less likely to return to NI. This is no beginning to impact on recruitment, if social workers etc need degrees than it is becoming hard to get a fair share of ones from a Protestant background.
The problem is that certain elements will claim that Prods are not getting the jobs because of "discrimination", while the only ones holding them back are their own families and friends.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 21, 2011, 08:34:15 PM
What is a mass brawl called when two Gaelic teams get stuck into each other after a match? Tribal? these things kick off all the time, handbags and I've seen worse at a local ladies football match.
Talking to one of the lads after the match, said it was no big deal, over-reaction. they were winding up the Model after scoring the winner (as you would) and it kicked off.
So are you saying that there was no sectarian element to the brawl?
Or to the occasion in general?
Although the brawl is totally irrelevant to the topic of the thread.
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 11:36:04 PM
i myself went on to 3rd level where for the first time in my life i shared a classroom with prods could believe how thick they were. they held the whole course up it was a joke. what surprised us taigs was that evertime there was a class test they were topping the class :o a wee bit of liberal marking done me thinks... just to take the bad look off it the wheels came off though when outside examiners landed.. btw these were all country lads not your typical hoodied townies
Not quite the broadened outlook (or standard of grammar) you might expect from someone who went to third-level.
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 22, 2011, 06:08:31 PM
Not quite the broadened outlook (or standard of grammar) you might expect from someone who went to third-level.
Really? Id say its about average for third-tier in NI.
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 22, 2011, 06:08:31 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 11:36:04 PM
i myself went on to 3rd level where for the first time in my life i shared a classroom with prods could believe how thick they were. they held the whole course up it was a joke. what surprised us taigs was that evertime there was a class test they were topping the class :o a wee bit of liberal marking done me thinks... just to take the bad look off it the wheels came off though when outside examiners landed.. btw these were all country lads not your typical hoodied townies
Not quite the broadened outlook (or standard of grammar) you might expect from someone who went to third-level.
UUJ?
Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 22, 2011, 08:45:24 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 21, 2011, 08:34:15 PM
What is a mass brawl called when two Gaelic teams get stuck into each other after a match? Tribal? these things kick off all the time, handbags and I've seen worse at a local ladies football match.
Talking to one of the lads after the match, said it was no big deal, over-reaction. they were winding up the Model after scoring the winner (as you would) and it kicked off.
So are you saying that there was no sectarian element to the brawl?
Or to the occasion in general?
Although the brawl is totally irrelevant to the topic of the thread.
I'm repeating just what the lad said. If both were involved, were they both being sectarian? Also if it was 2 Catholic schools who fought after the match what would that be called? 16 year old lads fight all the time. I wouldn't blow it up and create a fuss over it.
That is the problem with this god forsaken place, hatred of each other, suspicions of each other, pretty boring and dull when we are trying to score points of each other, safe in the knowledge that we are right.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 22, 2011, 06:52:01 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 22, 2011, 08:45:24 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 21, 2011, 08:34:15 PM
What is a mass brawl called when two Gaelic teams get stuck into each other after a match? Tribal? these things kick off all the time, handbags and I've seen worse at a local ladies football match.
Talking to one of the lads after the match, said it was no big deal, over-reaction. they were winding up the Model after scoring the winner (as you would) and it kicked off.
So are you saying that there was no sectarian element to the brawl?
Or to the occasion in general?
Although the brawl is totally irrelevant to the topic of the thread.
I'm repeating just what the lad said. If both were involved, were they both being sectarian? Also if it was 2 Catholic schools who fought after the match what would that be called? 16 year old lads fight all the time. I wouldn't blow it up and create a fuss over it.
That is the problem with this god forsaken place, hatred of each other, suspicions of each other, pretty boring and dull when we are trying to score points of each other, safe in the knowledge that we are right.
Have you recently been whacked over the head with a claw hammer?
Has Peter Solan the Great possibly hacked into your account?
Your contributions to this and the Celtic thread are becoming more and more bizarre.
It appears that the point you are trying to make is this. If this scenes had happened in Belfast after a Celtic – Rangers game (even months after, in the immediate aftermath of a contentious parade in Ardoyne), every Celtic and Rangers fan is a sectarian bigot. But, because the row happened after a football match involving two schools from either side of the divide, it's somehow the GAA's fault. Notwithstanding, of course the clearly obvious assumption that the majority of those causing the trouble at Ballyskeagh were fans of at least one of the aforementioned teams.
I too can only repeat what my source heard from a teacher in one of the schools involved, a man with a trusty left peg who your club tried to poach. The main issue was not the players but the crowd and there was plenty of sectarian abuse. It wasn't as you try to portray 16 year old boys beating the lining out of each other (why you think that would be acceptable, I don't know, by the way).
I have been to enough schools' football matches (including several of these showpiece games) to know the reality of what goes on. I have highlighted it on here before.
I don't particularly hate anyone, apart from maybe that wee idiot who tried to out me (longball, by the way, not you). I'm not scoring points either, but why dress something up as an innocent wee row between kids when it was clearly much more sinister than that.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 22, 2011, 09:39:25 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 22, 2011, 06:52:01 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 22, 2011, 08:45:24 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 21, 2011, 08:34:15 PM
What is a mass brawl called when two Gaelic teams get stuck into each other after a match? Tribal? these things kick off all the time, handbags and I've seen worse at a local ladies football match.
Talking to one of the lads after the match, said it was no big deal, over-reaction. they were winding up the Model after scoring the winner (as you would) and it kicked off.
So are you saying that there was no sectarian element to the brawl?
Or to the occasion in general?
Although the brawl is totally irrelevant to the topic of the thread.
I'm repeating just what the lad said. If both were involved, were they both being sectarian? Also if it was 2 Catholic schools who fought after the match what would that be called? 16 year old lads fight all the time. I wouldn't blow it up and create a fuss over it.
That is the problem with this god forsaken place, hatred of each other, suspicions of each other, pretty boring and dull when we are trying to score points of each other, safe in the knowledge that we are right.
Have you recently been whacked over the head with a claw hammer?
Has Peter Solan the Great possibly hacked into your account?
Your contributions to this and the Celtic thread are becoming more and more bizarre.
It appears that the point you are trying to make is this. If this scenes had happened in Belfast after a Celtic – Rangers game (even months after, in the immediate aftermath of a contentious parade in Ardoyne), every Celtic and Rangers fan is a sectarian bigot. But, because the row happened after a football match involving two schools from either side of the divide, it's somehow the GAA's fault. Notwithstanding, of course the clearly obvious assumption that the majority of those causing the trouble at Ballyskeagh were fans of at least one of the aforementioned teams.
I too can only repeat what my source heard from a teacher in one of the schools involved, a man with a trusty left peg who your club tried to poach. The main issue was not the players but the crowd and there was plenty of sectarian abuse. It wasn't as you try to portray 16 year old boys beating the lining out of each other (why you think that would be acceptable, I don't know, by the way).
I have been to enough schools' football matches (including several of these showpiece games) to know the reality of what goes on. I have highlighted it on here before.
I don't particularly hate anyone, apart from maybe that wee idiot who tried to out me (longball, by the way, not you). I'm not scoring points either, but why dress something up as an innocent wee row between kids when it was clearly much more sinister than that.
Look I'm not getting at you Saffron, you have no hatred in you, nor are you drunk at soccer matches shouting sectarian obscene shite.
I have my views on it, you have as many views on things that people on here will disagree with, so get over it.
As for the lad at it all I'm doing is repeating his view on what happened. If he is wrong and your source was right, well I'll take it back.
As for my point on Under 16 fighting at games, take yourself to an under 16 game, I've taken teams watch matches and refereed a fair amount, the fight ALL THE TIME!! Its nothing sinister.