Quote
Farrell wants jobs kept in-house
11 November 2010
Ulster GAA President Aogan Farrell has called on clubs around the country to appoint managers from within their own ranks.
Farrell told clubs at the recent Ulster Coaching Conference in Armagh that clubs should be able to go it alone in all areas:
"The manager is one aspect of that," said the Drumgoon Eire Og clubman. "Clubs don't need to go to the next parish or county to find a club chairman.
"They should be well able from within their own club area to find a good leader from their own community because GAA is about passion for your own place.
"In the same way they don't need to be going to anyone always expecting there is a grant for this or that.
"They should be able to grow their own players within their catchment, within their own community - people who have a love of their own club and place, and they should be the people that power their teams."
Surprised this topic hasn't been raised before now. The country is rife with journey men getting 50-100+ a night taking teams they have zero allegiance with. Many have zero credentials but that is beside the point. I'm 100% in agreement with the argument being made here.
What are your own thoughts? Have some clubs became almost addicted to the outside man solution? It does appear to be rife in alot of areas
sticky topic for a few reasons. im in favour of a local person taking a team as they have knowledge of the area and the people and have pride in the club. However there can be problems if there is friction between the manager and a player off the field then it will most likely be brought onto the field. then there is the "he only put him on because he is his nephew" problem when a player is forever under the microscope because he is related to the manager. this can cause a problem in the squad.
we had an outside man at the start of the year who tried to make changes to not just the football team but the hurling as well and needless to say it didn't go down well. He isn't the manager anymore and local men are in charge. Hopefully it stays that way
I know of one or two clubs who go for the outside manager, though i personally would prefer someone from the club doing it. One argument from the club i know with an outside manager is that the clubmen sometimes have wee loyalties that affect their team selections, training etc, whereas an outside man has a blank canvas to begin with and can base his judgements on what he sees without showing any bias. The only time i would accept an outside manager is if he had a good reputation and was able to guarantee success or at the very least improvement. i think Cullyhanna have a tyrone man over them and the change they made from last year has been evident with them putting a strong show in the Armagh championship.
Same boy was over cullyhanna last year as well
Quote from: fitzroyalty on November 15, 2010, 08:01:13 PM
I know of one or two clubs who go for the outside manager, though i personally would prefer someone from the club doing it. One argument from the club i know with an outside manager is that the clubmen sometimes have wee loyalties that affect their team selections, training etc, whereas an outside man has a blank canvas to begin with and can base his judgements on what he sees without showing any bias. The only time i would accept an outside manager is if he had a good reputation and was able to guarantee success or at the very least improvement. i think Cullyhanna have a tyrone man over them and the change they made from last year has been evident with them putting a strong show in the Armagh championship.
There is no great body of evidence that suggests that outside coaches are more successful then internal.
However if you dont have the expertise you should go outside. No point in sticking your head in the sand either. And use the expertise to train the young coaches. Therefore it becomes a one off expense.
However dont pay through the nose for them.
If you have it- dont bother.
Thats the biggest problem in my view. We're great at training players but poor at training coaches.,
We've never had an outside manager for hurling, but had one or two outside managers for the football.
most successful managers being club men. The outside managers have won the Antrim championship and progressed well in the Ulster championships. Would we have still done as well had we appointed within? probably.
My own view is, should someone (from within) be keen to take the club team and have a plan, structures and be passionate about the team then give him a chance. Players will always say the manager picks players over others based on whatever reasons. That will happen even if Brian Cody took your team.
We as a club could not afford to pay anyone to manage teams in the club. most managers are out of pocket
Believe it or not even during our most successful period at the club we struggled to get the right men to take the senior football team. Nearly impossible to get a manager from within to manage the hurling team!!!
So if you cant get a manager within, then you have to go outside and get someone.
We're great at abdicating responsibilty.
Don't believe that this nepotism argument is a primary reason why outside men are brought in. Not all adults lack the ability to be impartial.
Principally I am totally against the appointment of outsiders as managers for all the usual reasons main one being - they really day dont give two hoots for the long term well being of the clubs involved or the development of the under age teams within the club. But I was struck by a comment made by one of our clubs most respected former players and successful underage managers in recent years, when I put it to him that maybe it was time for him to give it a go at senior level and bring through the many lads he had nurtured at minor and u16 level. The point he made against not moving up to senior level was basically that - how would he get the respect and commitment from lads who are on a daily basis getting coached by the illustrious set ups now operating at some of our 3rd level colleges, where lads are exposed to the newest coaching methods, the "top coaches", equipment and sports scientists etc. daily. To then come back to their clubs and have the genuine club men try to get through to them how they want the game played is hard to do. A big name ex. county player has a better chance of commanding the respect and commitment where the local man may struggle. That may explain why so many within clubs back off from the challenge and clubs feel it necessary to go outside. i thought his point was relevant and sincere and unfortunately we have suffered with some woeful imported expensive dross in recent times.
WavesofTORRES, more fool him into thinking he could not compare with the 3rd level coaches and county team managers. That maybe shows a lack of confidence in his own ability.
If he has taken teams through the juvenile structures then its only right that he takes over at senior. He more than anyone else knows that lads ability, strengths and best of all his weaknesses.
When you manage a team you do talk with the senior players, we don't know everything, the county boys usually advise on some new drills they have done lately and you'd be a fool not to use them yourself, if they are good.
Respect is earned and I'm sure a lot of the players will respect him. you can't keep them all happy, no matter what they say to your face ;)
I think this sort of criticism should start from the top down. If there are Counties finding it difficult to appoint quality managers from within then it's a bit much to expect it of clubs.
What happens if no one in your club is nowhere near good enough to train your team?? Should you appoint him anyway??
Quote from: hardstation on November 28, 2010, 12:04:02 AM
Quote from: Celt_Man on November 28, 2010, 12:02:14 AM
What happens if no one in your club is nowhere near good enough to train your team?? Should you appoint him anyway??
Who is 'him'?
I'm not talking about anyone in particular - just a general point really!
Quote from: hardstation on November 28, 2010, 12:25:25 AM
Quote from: Celt_Man on November 28, 2010, 12:11:09 AM
Quote from: hardstation on November 28, 2010, 12:04:02 AM
Quote from: Celt_Man on November 28, 2010, 12:02:14 AM
What happens if no one in your club is nowhere near good enough to train your team?? Should you appoint him anyway??
Who is 'him'?
I'm not talking about anyone in particular - just a general point really!
Appoint the best man in your club to do the job. What do you do if your club hasn't got a 'keeper who is any use?
Get someone from Fermanagh.
So it seems that most lads are in favour of appointing from within, hardstation even appears to suggest a club should appoint a local man even if he isn't any good. While I agree that it is preferential to appoint a club man, I think it is utter nonsense to appoint men who aren't capable of doing the job simply because they want it. There are also many sweeping generalisations about outside managers that are often inaccurate, gems like they are less successful than a local man is a dubious claim. Or that they don't care for the club or it's underage structures is also often incorrect.
If your putting an extension on to your house, you should find out about the ability of the builder you're hiring and how much is reasonable for the job. Same applies to hiring an outside coach, offer what you can afford and get someone with a good reputation (and find out if it's justified). But it's time to leave this issue rest, the job of a manager/coach is far more than what it used to be and the level of preparation and knowledge that players expect is far more than what many can provide. I won't say managers/coaches 'deserve' to be paid but good ones bring a level of expertise that warrants payment in the same way the club physio or doctor does. You don't have to like it but people should stop complaining about it until they can find a solution that satisfies everyone and you won't do that.
Quote from: Zulu on November 28, 2010, 01:42:22 PM
So it seems that most lads are in favour of appointing from within, hardstation even appears to suggest a club should appoint a local man even if he isn't any good. While I agree that it is preferential to appoint a club man, I think it is utter nonsense to appoint men who aren't capable of doing the job simply because they want it. There are also many sweeping generalisations about outside managers that are often inaccurate, gems like they are less successful than a local man is a dubious claim. Or that they don't care for the club or it's underage structures is also often incorrect.
If your putting an extension on to your house, you should find out about the ability of the builder you're hiring and how much is reasonable for the job. Same applies to hiring an outside coach, offer what you can afford and get someone with a good reputation (and find out if it's justified). But it's time to leave this issue rest, the job of a manager/coach is far more than what it used to be and the level of preparation and knowledge that players expect is far more than what many can provide. I won't say managers/coaches 'deserve' to be paid but good ones bring a level of expertise that warrants payment in the same way the club physio or doctor does. You don't have to like it but people should stop complaining about it until they can find a solution that satisfies everyone and you won't do that.
Zulu you would want to acquaint yourself with what the asking price is for average coaches before slagging clubs off. In the current economic climate what even good coaches are asking for in the current economic climate is nothing short of a disgrace.
If that's the case then they won't get it, the club won't be out the expense and everyone's happy. I know a few decent coaches. They all have managed club sides but are dear. None need the money. Their outlook is that if they're going to give a foreign club their time, effort and expertise then they will charge accordingly, but if its too dear they're happy to play more golf etc.
Costs are dictated by the market. The rates you refer to as a disgrace exist because clubs pay them. If you want to debate how clubs waste money on bad / needless coaches then that's a different argument
Quote from: INDIANA on November 28, 2010, 01:55:43 PM
Quote from: Zulu on November 28, 2010, 01:42:22 PM
So it seems that most lads are in favour of appointing from within, hardstation even appears to suggest a club should appoint a local man even if he isn't any good. While I agree that it is preferential to appoint a club man, I think it is utter nonsense to appoint men who aren't capable of doing the job simply because they want it. There are also many sweeping generalisations about outside managers that are often inaccurate, gems like they are less successful than a local man is a dubious claim. Or that they don't care for the club or it's underage structures is also often incorrect.
If your putting an extension on to your house, you should find out about the ability of the builder you're hiring and how much is reasonable for the job. Same applies to hiring an outside coach, offer what you can afford and get someone with a good reputation (and find out if it's justified). But it's time to leave this issue rest, the job of a manager/coach is far more than what it used to be and the level of preparation and knowledge that players expect is far more than what many can provide. I won't say managers/coaches 'deserve' to be paid but good ones bring a level of expertise that warrants payment in the same way the club physio or doctor does. You don't have to like it but people should stop complaining about it until they can find a solution that satisfies everyone and you won't do that.
Zulu you would want to acquaint yourself with what the asking price is for average coaches before slagging clubs off. In the current economic climate what even good coaches are asking for in the current economic climate is nothing short of a disgrace.
Duffleking has covered most of your points Indiana in his response and would wholeheartedly agree with him. I don't see where I slagged off clubs in my post but the point I was making was that if clubs don't have anyone capable of doing the job then have to go outside for him. If that costs money then I think a qualified candidate is entitled to it as much as the club physio and in both cases the club should ensure they are paying what they can afford and the coach is worth it.
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 28, 2010, 02:58:19 PM
If that's the case then they won't get it, the club won't be out the expense and everyone's happy. I know a few decent coaches. They all have managed club sides but are dear. None need the money. Their outlook is that if they're going to give a foreign club their time, effort and expertise then they will charge accordingly, but if its too dear they're happy to play more golf etc.
Costs are dictated by the market. The rates you refer to as a disgrace exist because clubs pay them. If you want to debate how clubs waste money on bad / needless coaches then that's a different argument
Its the same argument. These coaches are happy to bankrupt clubs. You cant blame a club for wanting to be successful. thats the nature of the GAA and how strongly these members feel that they will beg, borrow and steal to get success. You end up with these jokers who couldnt train a monkey charging extortionate prices and then riding off into the sunset leaving a mess behind. Most of them are pirates in my view.
Surely you understand that its a nonsense to blame coaches for what clubs pay them?
I will manage your club. I will give you my expertise and my every waking thought. I can't guarantee you success but you know my record and have spoken to people who have played under me. All I can guarantee you is my best.
For me to sacrafice three evenings a week away from the kids and half my working days contacting physios, players and arranging training / games, I will need X a week. If that's too much I understand but to justfy pouring my time and energy into a club other than my own I will have to take the wife and kids away for a good holiday at the end of the year. Again, I understand its not hunble money for any club but it won't be worth it for me otherwise and no hard feelings if you want to go another direction.
You're argumment is that this coach should be made to do the job for half price? Less?
QuoteMost of them are pirates in my view.
Not true, though there are some but this is another sweeping generalisation that doesn't help reasoned discussion on topics like this. Again Duffleking makes a good point, in order for a good outside coach to take your club he may need to paid, it's up to you whether you pay it or not.
Most people don't buy cars they can't afford and if clubs are responsible they won't attempt to recruit coaches they can't afford. If a guy isn't any good then you should know this before you take him on and if he is the only option you should pay him according to his ability.
Outside managers are here to stay because managers/coaches are expected to be of a much higher level than before. It only follows therefore that less people can deliver this quality. As a result, clubs will pay to get the best of these coaches into their clubs. the way forward is not to demonise our best coaches but to regulate it and set reasonable rates that all teams must adhere to.
IMO a club should only pay for a coach if he makes the training of that club his priority. If he can't commit himself to that i.e. has a wife and kids to worry about or his golf handicap then he's not fit for the job. Indiana you refer to these coaches being pirates and I can see where you are coming from, but surely a club can cop on to whether they're getting VFM. If they aren't, send him packing.
The club I referred to at the start of the thread are now seeking a new senior manager AFAIK, the outsider they had wasn't willing to stay for a second term because he felt he wasn't getting the right committment from the players. So it can work both ways, maybe a different outsider would say sod this I don't care, so long as I'm still getting paid.
The point is fitz, you are asking the coach to swap / sacrafice his family and leisure time for time managing your club. That costs money in any man's book.
QuoteIMO a club should only pay for a coach if he makes the training of that club his priority. If he can't commit himself to that i.e. has a wife and kids to worry about or his golf handicap then he's not fit for the job.
So he has to be single and have no other interests, does that apply for a local man too? Most coaches that are being paid and are any good would give the necessary commitment to the club and good coaches won't hang around in clubs which haven't the drive to succeed.
In a perfect world we wouldn't have outside coaches and none of them would be getting anything beyond normal expenses but that isn't the reality. Dealing with the real world is always a better option than complaining about the real world and wishing it were different. Finding the balance between clubs getting value for money and coaches being appropriately rewarded is the only way forward IMO.
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 28, 2010, 04:05:09 PM
The point is fitz, you are asking the coach to swap / sacrafice his family and leisure time for time managing your club. That costs money in any man's book.
I recognise that...but if these guys are going to apply for positions they'll be aware of the sacrafices that need to be made, otherwise they wouldn't put in for them. My view is that they'll be football men. They'll want to be still involved in the game. They'll want a challenge. They'll want success. Yes they'll deserve payment of some sort but if they're going to play this "i've my wife and kids, family, etc, pay me more" then they can go jump.
Zulu, see above. There are plenty of bachelors out there anyway not that that is a necessity. Coaching a team isn't a full time job anyway, so that point about other interests is slightly irrelevant.
No fitz. I realize your own club hasn't gone down the road of an outside man too often but if you don't have anyone capable within your membership, you will be going looking someone who can. headhunting if you like. outsiders - particularly capable ones - are not going to apply for a club job.
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 28, 2010, 04:18:53 PM
No fitz. I realize your own club hasn't gone down the road of an outside man too often but if you don't have anyone capable within your membership, you will be going looking someone who can. headhunting if you like. outsiders - particularly capable ones - are not going to apply for a club job.
True. But clubs do advertise and that's what I was referring to. The scenario you refer to is different and in that case I'd be in agreement with you.
If coaches can claim money for travelling then how long will it be until players can? i remember a story that Niall Cahalane's young fella travelling a large distance because he lived away from his club. is he entitled to repayment of his expenses or is it his own choice to do the driving so sod him? i know there is a difference between him playing for his own club and an outside coach taking a club but what is the difference in him volunteering his time and money to play the game and a coach taking a team. should he not voluteer also?
Also what makes these fella's worth their money? is there any courses out there for coaching or is it just reputation that gets them an outside job?
QuoteZulu, see above. There are plenty of bachelors out there anyway not that that is a necessity. Coaching a team isn't a full time job anyway, so that point about other interests is slightly irrelevant.
I think this is slightly off topic, but the point remains that coaching a team involves a serious time commitment, level of football and physical preparation know-how and certain personality traits. Not everyone brings this to the table and therefore clubs will seek those who can. There are probably no more than a handful of really good coaches/managers in any county, so those that are will be highly sought and can, justifiably, seek remuneration for what is a serious undertaking. If a club pays a chancer the same as they'd pay a quality coach then the fault lies with the club and nobody else.
QuoteIf coaches can claim money for travelling then how long will it be until players can?
Will never happen but players do get travelling expenses and they more than cover the cost of their petrol. But we all know clubs can't afford to pay 8 or 9 players to travel home and they are doing it for their own club, the outside coach is not.
Quotei remember a story that Niall Cahalane's young fella travelling a large distance because he lived away from his club. is he entitled to repayment of his expenses or is it his own choice to do the driving so sod him?
He lives in Cork city but plays football for Castlehaven in west Cork and I'd say it was at the insistence of his Dad who is a selector. He plays hurling for the Barrs in the city so it isn't the same thing at all.
Quotei know there is a difference between him playing for his own club and an outside coach taking a club but what is the difference in him volunteering his time and money to play the game and a coach taking a team. should he not voluteer also?
Yes, but we are taking about an outside coach. I don't know of any coach who charges his own club but if he does it for another club why shouldn't he get paid, should you volunteer your time to man the bar, cut the grass or put up the nets in neighbouring clubs (and beyond) for free?
QuoteAlso what makes these fella's worth their money? is there any courses out there for coaching or is it just reputation that gets them an outside job?
Yes, there are and the GAA want to arrive at a situation where you must have certain coaching qualifications in order to coach at different levels. But for now, reputation and experience matter more and this should be enough for clubs to gage a man's suitability for a coaching job.
Quote from: Zulu on November 28, 2010, 01:42:22 PM
So it seems that most lads are in favour of appointing from within, hardstation even appears to suggest a club should appoint a local man even if he isn't any good. While I agree that it is preferential to appoint a club man, I think it is utter nonsense to appoint men who aren't capable of doing the job simply because they want it. There are also many sweeping generalisations about outside managers that are often inaccurate, gems like they are less successful than a local man is a dubious claim. Or that they don't care for the club or it's underage structures is also often incorrect.
If your putting an extension on to your house, you should find out about the ability of the builder you're hiring and how much is reasonable for the job. Same applies to hiring an outside coach, offer what you can afford and get someone with a good reputation (and find out if it's justified). But it's time to leave this issue rest, the job of a manager/coach is far more than what it used to be and the level of preparation and knowledge that players expect is far more than what many can provide. I won't say managers/coaches 'deserve' to be paid but good ones bring a level of expertise that warrants payment in the same way the club physio or doctor does. You don't have to like it but people should stop complaining about it until they can find a solution that satisfies everyone and you won't do that.
Excellent post - agree 100%
Quote
I think this is slightly off topic, but the point remains that coaching a team involves a serious time commitment, level of football and physical preparation know-how and certain personality traits. Not everyone brings this to the table and therefore clubs will seek those who can. There are probably no more than a handful of really good coaches/managers in any county, so those that are will be highly sought and can, justifiably, seek remuneration for what is a serious undertaking. If a club pays a chancer the same as they'd pay a quality coach then the fault lies with the club and nobody else.
Woudl the exact same argument not work just as well for a high scoring forward? Not every club has them, should they just be allowed to pay some guy to come in and stick the ball over the bar for them?
Well that happens already in some counties doesn't it? But I wouldn't equate the two because nobody wants us to go down that route and while a team can still do well even if they are short one or two quality players they are unlikely do reach their potential if they have a guy coaching who is out of his depth. I don't think any players want their clubs to source and pay top quality players but they all want quality coaches so that their own efforts are worthwhile, and what is wrong with that?
Are you or have you been an outside manager Zulu?
Yeah Skull1, I'm currently an outside manager and I've been an outside manager once before. I also coached my own club for two years and I didn't get any money (not even expenses) for any of them.
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 28, 2010, 03:41:32 PM
Surely you understand that its a nonsense to blame coaches for what clubs pay them?
I will manage your club. I will give you my expertise and my every waking thought. I can't guarantee you success but you know my record and have spoken to people who have played under me. All I can guarantee you is my best.
For me to sacrafice three evenings a week away from the kids and half my working days contacting physios, players and arranging training / games, I will need X a week. If that's too much I understand but to justfy pouring my time and energy into a club other than my own I will have to take the wife and kids away for a good holiday at the end of the year. Again, I understand its not hunble money for any club but it won't be worth it for me otherwise and no hard feelings if you want to go another direction.
You're argumment is that this coach should be made to do the job for half price? Less?
No I dont. I think its a fallacy to blame clubs for wanting success. The bottom line is I would only appoint an outside coach if I was sure we didnt have the expertise and I was banking on a sure thing. I could name several of these well known gurus who have sold themselves to clubs for extortionate prices and then subsequently these clubs have found out they are training 3 other teams on the side. in other words coining it. they dont give a shite.
For a club who has had exhausted its internal options and has had a period of no success then its time to get outside help. However for an established club I'd want to be sold on the individual first and secondly that my club is their sole priority. If I even hear of them training another club in the meantime they are out the door.
Ffs. We're all in agreement then. Is it beyond you to just say that rather than trying to pretend you have some much more high brow argument?
I think ever postwe has said the same thing now in a variety of ways
Think that post needs another edit uladh. Can't understand it at all
QuoteCooney urges counties to support Duffy document
Christy Cooney
30 November 2010
Christy Cooney has called on county boards to give their full backing to GAA director-general Paraic Duffy's soon-to-be-released discussion document on illegal payments to managers.
Cooney described it yesterday as one of the major issues hanging over the Association and called on county officials to fully support Croke Park bosses in their attempt to end the long-running practice.
"The last discussion we had with county chairmen there was a lot of honesty and frankness in the room stating exactly where we are. At this stage everybody requires and needs a pathway forward on this," he said from Kuala Lumpur.
"At the end of the day, whatever we bring in, people have to buy into it and not alone buy into it but deliver on it as well. There is no point in paying lip service to something and looking under the table as to where exactly the funding is going and not going. We all have to be honest about it."
The GAA president also insisted that the two-month training is here to stay and that there will be no changes to the hurling and football championship structures for the foreseeable future, although there may be some tweaking to the playing calendar for 2011.
Odd to call for everyone to support something that noone has seen
And how do you give backing to a discussion document?
Even a seriously focussed and successsful club like Burren seems to need to appoint outsiders like McManus, Barton (stop laughing) and Dawson - why?
Usually in my view it is not for the expertise they bring that the likes of Paddy O'Rourke or one of the McGovern's doesn't have - it is to bridge the local rivalries or internal divisions that exist in most (rural) clubs, even the most successful, no matter how united they appear on the outside.
It would be nice to rise above that parochialism - and put the tooth fairy at full back.
I think much of it depends on the ambitions of the club and the realistic talent available. The reality is that only 1 team a year can win a championship and 1 team can win the league. Generally the team that wins one is in for a serious shout for the other. Most counties have a core of 3-4 teams who are realistic challengers every year. Cross for instance never look outside the club for a manager and do not pay but a lot has to do with the talent available and the prevailing structures for development within the club. There is a continuity that has been facilitated due to the success but this did not appear because we won an All Ireland. There were a number of visionsaries, well really Tim Gregory, who 30 years ago or so put a massive effort into the underage structure knowing that this would pay huge rewards in the long term. He got a number of very capable deputies, Peter McMahon, Miceal Moley, and a few others who coached other teams but Tim was the catalyst for everything. Once the structures were put in place there was never going to be the need to put in place and "outside" man, the club had been burned back in the mid 80's by the one and only "outside" manager.
Now in many respects clubs are going at it the wrong way round. Focus on getting the underage structures. I read a line about the difference between the clubs in the PL and the clubs in Spain. In England the best coaches are paid big money to coach the senior teams, in SPain the best coaches have worked with the underage teams for the last 20 years and that is why you have the like of Barcelona producing a fantastic team with 8-9 "home grown" players and the international team is the best team in the world whereas English football in my mind is at an all time low in terms of ability and structures. Bringing that to the GAA, tehre are not that many coaches of sufficeint quality to coach senior teams and it is understandable why clubs are poaying managers. What I would say though is that there needs to be a greater development of coaches within clubs and I don't just mean in terms of doing the GAA based "drills" courses. There needs to be proper coachiong in terms of the requirements for physical fitness and the need to prepare bodies properly. The game of football in particular is an intensely physical game and as the younger players are getting bigger and more muscle bound the hits are getting bigger therefore coaches need to be more acutely aware of the requiremnts of recovery and rest as do the players. I know in my own case I have arthritis devloping in my right shoulder and right elbow despite the fact that I never really suffered a serious injury during my career. I am only 34 and sometimes find it hard to get out of bed. The GAA perhaps could invest in this area, acknowledge that managers are getting paid but insist that they compltete all the badges that are available before theyt can take on a coaching role. Personally it would be a great rervenue generator for the Association and also for the Government as the managers would have to declare their earnings and pay tax on them.
Everything you say BCB1 is correct and that is why i think all clubs should abandon this notion of outside managers,
Club success should be achieved by a club, if you don't have the players you can't recruit, you have to go back to basics and develop underage and look to the long term until your club is in a position to be competitive.
the same should apply to managers, make the best of the resources available to your clubs, put money into developing coaching within the club and the long terms gains will be much better than the flash in the pan success outside managers crave.
Playing success should be what every player and club strives for but not at all costs, and it is the clubs who pay not the managers who get paid are to blame for the amount of this that goes on
Of course Aogan is right, but why start with clubs, when you have counties with bigger resources using external managers. The whole GAA public needs to take a step back to be fair. Professionalism interms of playing for and managing teams is a curse which could cripple the whole thing in a few years. Back to basics!!
Quote from: maxpower on December 01, 2010, 11:18:34 AM
Everything you say BCB1 is correct and that is why i think all clubs should abandon this notion of outside managers,
Club success should be achieved by a club, if you don't have the players you can't recruit, you have to go back to basics and develop underage and look to the long term until your club is in a position to be competitive.
the same should apply to managers, make the best of the resources available to your clubs, put money into developing coaching within the club and the long terms gains will be much better than the flash in the pan success outside managers crave.
Playing success should be what every player and club strives for but not at all costs, and it is the clubs who pay not the managers who get paid are to blame for the amount of this that goes on
I do actually agree that clubs pay managers though if the structures are not right but the managers should not be just an ex county player etc. There should be an understanding that the whole structures of the club need to be addressed and until the right internal man is available then the right external candidate should take the job on, but they must be fully aware of the overall remit of the role is to develop the unit as a whole and not just win a championship.
The reality is that many clubs don't, and never will, have top quality coaches. I agree 100% with BC1 but this isn't professional sport and a lot of underage coaches will always be parents of the kids and many will want to progress with their kids as they get older. I tried to establish a coaching structure in my club but it didn't get off the ground for many reasons. I'm not sure some of the northern posters quite grasp how disorganised and dysfunctional a lot of southern clubs are. I know BC1 is now involved with Cork so he probably does but some clubs in the 26 counties will always need outside managers if they are to get quality appointments.
Another aspect of this is that many coaches look upon the role the same way players look at playing. I would be a far more ambitious coach than my club are (unfortunately) and to improve as a coach I want to work with higher level teams. Why should lads who want to coach and are good at coaching have to remain with their own club? And why shouldn't they be paid for bring expertise to clubs in the same way the physio does?
I'm out of cork now zulu but I do agree there is a laissez faire attitude among certain areas. The attitude is a bit like "yerra f**k it we've won x amount doing it this way why change". The game is changing and no matter what people believe it will continue to evolve. Clubs in the north are more acutely aware of the need for proper structures and great credit must go to the ulster council for that. Leinster clubs and specifically dublin clubs are catching up fast, munster still relying on a system where they are lucky to have strong tradition and talent, I don't know much about connacht but when I saw tommy joyce playing mf in the game ag st brigids I had a raised eyebrow! The fact though remains that there are good and bad managers gettinhg paid on the merry go round and I think it wd be better to address their abilities than complain about whether they are paid or not.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on December 01, 2010, 07:45:46 PM
I'm out of cork now zulu but I do agree there is a laissez faire attitude among certain areas. The attitude is a bit like "yerra f**k it we've won x amount doing it this way why change". The game is changing and no matter what people believe it will continue to evolve. Clubs in the north are more acutely aware of the need for proper structures and great credit must go to the ulster council for that. Leinster clubs and specifically dublin clubs are catching up fast, munster still relying on a system where they are lucky to have strong tradition and talent, I don't know much about connacht but when I saw tommy joyce playing mf in the game ag st brigids I had a raised eyebrow! The fact though remains that there are good and bad managers gettinhg paid on the merry go round and I think it wd be better to address their abilities than complain about whether they are paid or not.
very good point. though i don't agree with payment its a rolling snowball now but i hope it doesn't get too big in more and more people getting paid just because the coaches are. if a coaches ability is improved it can only help the team and in the long run the game as a whole