Judging by his performance yesterday a few questions need to be asked of the country's top ref!
If he's not the country's top ref who is?
It's the umpires who are the problem not Pat!!
In fairness to him on the square ball issue, he went into the umpire on the Hogan stand side of the goal and consulted with him after the green flag had been waved. He cannot do more in that circumstance when he couldn't see where Coulter was. On the Down guy jumping over the ball there was so many people about him it was nigh impossible to make out. On both these occasions the umpires shirked their duty.
He made a couple of mistakes yesterday, so what? He's still head and shoulders above other IC referees
Why did he consult with only one umpire?
How many threads do we need on this feckin match? I just want to erase it from my memory completely :'(
Pat is still one of the best referees - not saying much in fairness. Kildare never seem to get the rub of the green when he's reffing us though. In last year's Leinster Final he gave the Dubs everything after Ger Brennan was correctly sent off. Kildare couldn't buy a free that day. In the previous year's quarter final against Cork, Michael Cussen scored a goal that was an even more blatant square ball than yesterdays. Of course, Kildare went on to lose by three points!
Quote from: pintsofguinness on August 30, 2010, 02:46:01 PM
If he's not the country's top ref who is?
David Coldrick for me, and by quite a distance. I think he should get the final now that there will be no Leinster involvement. It would be typical if the clowns in HQ gave it to Kinneavy or whatever he calls himself this week.
Quote from: Hardy on August 30, 2010, 02:49:19 PM
Why did he consult with only one umpire?
it was better than not consulting with any! ;)
Quote from: Hardy on August 30, 2010, 02:49:19 PM
Why did he consult with only one umpire?
The other fcuker was so useless he needed the support of the back stanchion to keep himself upright all day yesterday:
First Half:
(http://i33.servimg.com/u/f33/15/53/82/70/down_g10.jpg)
Second Half:
(http://i33.servimg.com/u/f33/15/53/82/70/leper_10.jpg)
I think he's the one he consulted, Dinny!
Anyway, my take on it is that both umpires were positioning themselves to adjudicate on what they thought was a shot for a point. They were ballwatching. That's why yer man is back there hanging out of the stanchion - trying to get in line with the flight of the ball. I think they were too late to adjudicate on whether Benny had arrived ahead of schedule because they weren't looking for that as he arrived. To be fair, we give out when they get a point call wrong. Then we give out when they're trying to get it right and miss something else.
It's not an easy job. You know how they say women are better than men at multi-tasking. What about ... ?
yes he's over-rated, Brolly puts him up on a pedestal but don't think he's any better than a lot of referrees. Always seemed in my mind to give Kerry some handy frees when he refs them and there was a lot of mistakes yesterday even if we don't take the square ball goal, possibly penalty and good point waved wide into account.
Quote from: Hardy on August 30, 2010, 03:10:17 PM
I think he's the one he consulted, Dinny!
Anyway, my take on it is that both umpires were positioning themselves to adjudicate on what they thought was a shot for a point. They were ballwatching. That's why yer man is back there hanging out of the stanchion - trying to get in line with the flight of the ball. I think they were too late to adjudicate on whether Benny had arrived ahead of schedule because they weren't looking for that as he arrived. To be fair, we give out when they get a point call wrong. Then we give out when they're trying to get it right and miss something else.
It's not an easy job. You know how they say women are better than men at multi-tasking. What about ... ?
If the umpires could'nt see Coulter due to ball watching then McEneaney should have seen him running in there beforehand. It was a bog standard square ball that would have been blown up in a club junior match. Dont know why there are any excuses being made for this mistake. It had a massive bearing on the game. In answer to the question of the thread.... Yes in my opinion Pat is over rated. Decent ref but a media darling.
We have been saying that he is overrated in Mayo for years and no one seemed to take notice >:(.
If you have seen him in action in the the International Rules Series you will see him in all his glory.....no protection for his own players and he is like a little lap dog for the Australian refs during the game. He might as well be marked abscent in these games.
Overrated? YES, YES, YES.
Very much so Marty.
But not by me, I told ye he was sh1t. Another disaster yesterday, from the first minute foul he gave against Clarke, Down had to work twice as hard as Kildare to get a free. The square ball was a disgrace though, typical of his cop out mentality. HE had the best view of the three officials (I agree with Hardy's interpretation of the lads looking for the point) and was swayed by the umpire going buck mad with the green flag. He knew it was a square ball, which is why he went only to the other umpire looking for a bail out. The other buck obviously didn't help so he was left up the creek without a paddle. Having gone through this pantomime he didn't have the cojones to call it right (i won't say overrule because it was his decision and his alone).
Anyways hard luck to Kildare, I hope Geezer and Early give it another go with ye.
Yes - and has been for some time, and protected from criticism by his own accessability to the media I would suggest.
From experience of him from the sideline, he is a very 'assured' individual and I believe honestly that he has grown to believe in his own interpretation of how the game should be played rather than following any directives.
Forget about the high profile issues yesterday that were almost all down to bad unmpiring, although I accept and agree that he could have overruled those if he wished, what I though was worse is the point made by Passedit (no relation!!) that "Down had to work twice as hard as Kildare to get a free".
That is bad refereeing as against making a mistake. Mistakes will happen, and generally - not always as we saw in the Leinster final but generally - will not of themselves change the outcome of the game, and I don't think that the Down goal yesterday did. Bad refereeing tho' will screw up a game and if Down lost yesterday they would have a lot to be aggrieved about how McEnaney allowed the game to develop.
No harm to any referee, but if they can't spot a fella jumping up and fisting the ball in the square (in a clear case like yesterday's) then they shouldn't be refereeing. So this craic that its the linesmans fault doesn't wash. They should have definitely spotted it, but so should PME.
Doesn't really matter now as that is probably his las big match in Croker! Thought he had a poor game by his own standards yesterday but was still one of the best.
Of course Prat McEnaney's over-rated.
Ye will be crying for Pat when Gerry Kinnevey gets the whistle for the Final!
Car crash television ahead for us neutrals!
I hope to meet Pat McEneaney sometime.
As for Gerry Kinneavey. I think the misery should be shared about evenly. Not fair he should destroy just a few counties summer. I hope he gets the final.
Quote from: moysider on August 30, 2010, 09:57:38 PM
I hope to meet Pat McEneaney sometime.
As for Gerry Kinneavey. I think the misery should be shared about evenly. Not fair he should destroy just a few counties summer. I hope he gets the final.
why?
Quote from: pintsofguinness on August 30, 2010, 10:31:06 PM
Quote from: moysider on August 30, 2010, 09:57:38 PM
I hope to meet Pat McEneaney sometime.
As for Gerry Kinneavey. I think the misery should be shared about evenly. Not fair he should destroy just a few counties summer. I hope he gets the final.
why?
Why not? Seems like a nice fella.
While I believe he is a good ref, I do think that he is over-rated, and this is due in large part to RTE continually telling us he is the best in the land.
He reffed one of the Cork v Kerry games this year and I thought he was terrible that day.
Lets not forget that it was him who sent off Liam McHale in the infamous Meath v Mayo All-Ireland final, and my belief is that McHale got sent off simply because he stood out from his team mates given that he was tall & tanned.
Like any referee he has made mistakes, but to be fair to him he is one of the better referees.
Quote from: Roashter on August 31, 2010, 10:49:05 AM
He reffed one of the Cork v Kerry games this year and I thought he was terrible that day.
I think you would have to judge his refereeing of the Cork Kerry game in comparison to how other refs did with that fixture.
Also bear in mind he had a top ref on the sideline, yards away from an incident, who got it wrong over the Canty card offense.
If the ref is to use his umpires then some responsibility can be delegated. Here based on the blatant enough square ball, some are saying that the ref can not delegate, he has to make every decision and get everything right. I'd say that it is an absolute impossibility even for our top refs, to achieve consistency of performance in hotly contested championship games with teams at the top of their game, going helter skelter at Croke Park. Imagine a soccer ref who could not depend on his assistants for offside calls, it would be chaotic.
Our refs need proper assistance to do their job in these games and make the decisions they are capable of, if that is the expectation.
The main argument against having 2 refs, one in each half, is that the refs have their own interpretation of how the game can proceed. McEnaney usually gives the advantage to the player in possession surrounded by the swarm, whilst other refs blow in favour of the swarm.
In effect, having two refs might be a tad confusing to the proceedings. Allowing a few video replay calls in the latter stages of the championship to each team, is a doable change. Or we can just accept that one man can not possibly get every decision right.
No best ref by a mile Ive seen. Will be a big loss. His umpires let him down on Sunday but he did ok himself. Understands the game, lets it flow.
They should have stuck with the rule tried earlier this year, where a player could enter the square after the ball was kicked. If as happened the ball was kicked high in and dropping down,when did it enter the square? on a high dropping kick a player could enter the square and still not commit a foul. What I am trying to say is, if the ball is say 30 mtrs in the air and dropping the player can surely go for it and be in there when it is within playing distance.
This would be hard for a ref and umpires to determine as they can`t watch the high dropping ball and where the player is at the same time.
I hope I have`nt gone too far off topic.
Totally overrated.
lads i'm not a referee but i did referee an underage game one time when the ref didn't weigh in and I can tell you it was no picnic and it was a midtable end of season u12 game - I'll admit it too i missed a lot of stuff
now imagine an all ireland senior semi final in croker with 60k plus fan screaming at ya - i think he is the best around and tries to be fair
referees are like priests i reckon - it takes a rare breed of a man to do it!
The best ref in Ulster by a country mile and probably in Ireland too. PITY he didnt get the final :-[
This topic is stupid.
If Kieran Donaghy has one bad game is he over-rated? Give me a break.. I mean who would bother their whole being a ref in this day and age. Ref's are scrutinised more than ever, yet still have the same help they had 20 years ago - the human eye.
How many mistakes do you think happened 20 years ago and went unnoticed because of the lack of action replay's. I mean until we adapt and come up with a tecnology system that suits our game we are going to have to accept mistakes will be made - just like they have always been.
I was at the game myself on Sunday. And yeah, when he scored it I thought to myself 'that might have been a square ball' but I wasn't 100% sure. McEnaney clearly wasn't fully decided, because he went into the umpire who had already put up the flag, so how can you disallow a goal if you are not 100% sure he was in the square.
Do we expect ref's to give penalties unless they are 100% sure there is a trip?
Quote from: cogito on September 01, 2010, 08:50:39 PM
This topic is stupid.
If Kieran Donaghy has one bad game is he over-rated? Give me a break.. I mean who would bother their whole being a ref in this day and age. Ref's are scrutinised more than ever, yet still have the same help they had 20 years ago - the human eye.
How many mistakes do you think happened 20 years ago and went unnoticed because of the lack of action replay's. I mean until we adapt and come up with a tecnology system that suits our game we are going to have to accept mistakes will be made - just like they have always been.
I was at the game myself on Sunday. And yeah, when he scored it I thought to myself 'that might have been a square ball' but I wasn't 100% sure. McEnaney clearly wasn't fully decided, because he went into the umpire who had already put up the flag, so how can you disallow a goal if you are not 100% sure he was in the square.
Do we expect ref's to give penalties unless they are 100% sure there is a trip?
While you were at the match did you have some one at both goals and another 2 buddies on the sideline linked up to you who were closer to the various incidents ? Any way I think over the years he has been one of the best . I am wondering is all the Tv scrutiny and the messing around with the rules making the refs job harder . This square ball decission is a bad call by the umpires and the point at the hill end just proves that having an intercounty ref does not makle for better decission making
personally i think pat is the best ref in the country ( closely followed by coldrick) but after these two where do we go?
there have been matches that i have watched the pat was refereeing that i didn't even know he was there and to me that is the sign of a good ref. the best men get the high profile game all the time and he has had the most.
some have said he shouldn't have been in a game with an ulster team but to me this is nonsense as he has never favoured any team in my opinion id be happy if he refereed a match between monaghan and derry.
as for the decisions he missed. the point that was given wide was for the umpire not pat. the square ball was for the umpire not pat (although it was bread and butter stuff) and for the penalty decision near the end...for a man standing near the 21 to see a touch on the ground through a group of men standing around..then i think we are starting to ask too much of a ref. if giving a decision on what he thinks might have happened is better than not giving a decision on what might not have happened then i think we are going in the wrong direction. if technology is the right answer then so be it but i think that might take away from part of our games. the was it/wasn't it part that has been around for years.
Quote from: andoireabu on September 04, 2010, 03:29:03 AM
personally i think pat is the best ref in the country ( closely followed by coldrick) but after these two where do we go?
there have been matches that i have watched the pat was refereeing that i didn't even know he was there and to me that is the sign of a good ref. the best men get the high profile game all the time and he has had the most.
some have said he shouldn't have been in a game with an ulster team but to me this is nonsense as he has never favoured any team in my opinion id be happy if he refereed a match between monaghan and derry.
as for the decisions he missed. the point that was given wide was for the umpire not pat. the square ball was for the umpire not pat (although it was bread and butter stuff) and for the penalty decision near the end...for a man standing near the 21 to see a touch on the ground through a group of men standing around..then i think we are starting to ask too much of a ref. if giving a decision on what he thinks might have happened is better than not giving a decision on what might not have happened then i think we are going in the wrong direction. if technology is the right answer then so be it but i think that might take away from part of our games. the was it/wasn't it part that has been around for years.
Brian Crowe isn't a bad ref IMO :-\
brian crowe is over 50
yrs old and this is why he is not reffing deemed to be to old by hierarchy in croke park