Semingly in the next hour if agreement isnt reached between the two goverment parties on the programme for goverment, gormley and ryan are resigning their ministerial posts and this will more than likely mean that the party members will vote to leave goverment tomorrow.
The greens are seemingly standing firm on issues such as a total ban on so called blood sports including hare coursing and saying no to health and eduacation cuts.
What will be the outcome?
Will we be voting for a new goverment soon?
The suspense is killing me. Come on treehuggers, give us an election!
I have a feeling in me all week that they will pull out. Not that it'll bolster their own chances but I think we'll be voting soon. I might be totally wrong though...
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 09, 2009, 01:41:13 PM
I have a feeling in me all week that they will pull out. Not that it'll bolster their own chances but I think we'll be voting soon. I might be totally wrong though...
The fact that John O'Donoghue hasn't resigned yet suggested there was a problem in the coalition.
Recession sucks, but it makes for exciting elections.
Greens will pull the plug.
They've been in cabinet long enough to secure Ministerial pensions for the lads and they will exit, claim high moral ground, and just about retain existing seats (although Chemical Cuffe is dodgy in Dun Laoghaire seeing as we've lost a seat from 5 to 4) in the upcoming Nov 09 General Election.
That is all.
Quote from: rossie mad on October 09, 2009, 01:13:34 PM
The greens are seemingly standing firm on issues such as a total ban on so called blood sports including hare coursing and saying no to health and eduacation cuts.
If the greens try and insist on a ban on blood sports including hare coursing then the goverment will fall regardless as the rural TD's in FF have recently been left in little doubt they will be out on their ear if they agree to it.
Ooohh the drama.
Won't believe anything untill I see it happen. This could be more throwing shapes than anything else. The greens will cave and agree with their betters. They might get the position vacated by JOD to ensure they can return atleast one TD. I'd say this is more about political survival than a program for Government being debated.
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 09, 2009, 02:04:34 PM
If the greens try and insist on a ban on blood sports including hare coursing then the goverment will fall regardless as the rural TD's in FF have recently been left in little doubt they will be out on their ear if they agree to it.
Well spotted. You're right, you can dip your hand in as many tills as you like but God forbid you take away the right to tear rabbits apart!
Do the greens really want an election themselves? No more than the PD's they could be wiped out if they have to face an election.
I'd say they will find a compromise and remain in Government. It will be interesting to see what they get FF to give them to remain in Government. We could all be looking for electric cars next week :)
Quote from: deiseach on October 09, 2009, 02:07:45 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 09, 2009, 02:04:34 PM
If the greens try and insist on a ban on blood sports including hare coursing then the goverment will fall regardless as the rural TD's in FF have recently been left in little doubt they will be out on their ear if they agree to it.
Well spotted. You're right, you can dip your hand in as many tills as you like but God forbid you take away the right to tear rabbits apart!
Deiseach,
Your reply doesnt really deserve a response but humour me and tell me where are these rabbits torn apart?
I honestly think we will be voting in a general election within the next twelve months but im unsure whether or not it will be so soon.
The grassroots of the greens will have been very vocal to their TD's the last two months and i suspect that if agreement isnt reached on a lot of issues close to the green party,then we may be voting soon.
I dont think the opposition of fine gael and labour really want to have an election before a budget is announced as they dont want to be the bringer of bad news.
personally id vote for fianna fail again simply because i think the only politician on the other side of the house worth his salt is richard bruton. in fact i think he is one of the better politicians in dail eireann. the rest wouldnt run a race in my eyes never mind a goverment.
the lot that are there now are the best of a bad lot.
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 09, 2009, 02:10:41 PM
Deiseach,
Your reply doesnt really deserve a response but humour me and tell me where are these rabbits torn apart?
Sorry. Should have said hares ;)
Quote from: rossie mad on October 09, 2009, 02:20:21 PM
personally id vote for fianna fail again simply because i think the only politician on the other side of the house worth his salt is richard bruton. in fact i think he is one of the better politicians in dail eireann. the rest wouldnt run a race in my eyes never mind a goverment.
the lot that are there now are the best of a bad lot.
And so the FF campaign of discrediting the opposition begins again. Lets not get this poster mixed up with those we often think are so stupid they shouldn't be allowed to vote, this is nothing other than FF at work. This is not your everyday floating voter this is a voter at the heart of FF.
Quote from: Zapatista on October 09, 2009, 02:31:48 PM
Quote from: rossie mad on October 09, 2009, 02:20:21 PM
personally id vote for fianna fail again simply because i think the only politician on the other side of the house worth his salt is richard bruton. in fact i think he is one of the better politicians in dail eireann. the rest wouldnt run a race in my eyes never mind a goverment.
the lot that are there now are the best of a bad lot.
And so the FF campaign of discrediting the opposition begins again. Lets not get this poster mixed up with those we often think are so stupid they shouldn't be allowed to vote, this is nothing other than FF at work. This is not your everyday floating voter this is a voter at the heart of FF.
Sure the lad is only giving his opinion, noithing wrong with that. I am sure the rest of are smart enough to make up our own minds.
Quote from: rossie mad on October 09, 2009, 02:20:21 PM
personally id vote for fianna fail again simply because i think the only politician on the other side of the house worth his salt is richard bruton. in fact i think he is one of the better politicians in dail eireann. the rest wouldnt run a race in my eyes never mind a goverment.
the lot that are there now are the best of a bad lot.
What would it take for you too vote against FF. At the moment a shit throwing chimp couldn't do worse than FF.
Quote from: Zapatista on October 09, 2009, 02:31:48 PM
Quote from: rossie mad on October 09, 2009, 02:20:21 PM
personally id vote for fianna fail again simply because i think the only politician on the other side of the house worth his salt is richard bruton. in fact i think he is one of the better politicians in dail eireann. the rest wouldnt run a race in my eyes never mind a goverment.
the lot that are there now are the best of a bad lot.
And so the FF campaign of discrediting the opposition begins again. Lets not get this poster mixed up with those we often think are so stupid they shouldn't be allowed to vote, this is nothing other than FF at work. This is not your everyday floating voter this is a voter at the heart of FF.
How can you decipher what party i am?
im just as angry as most of the country against the clear faults and wrongdoings of this goverment.
my point is what is the other side of the house is just as incompetent.
im not a fianna fail supporter.i voted for them the last time because i believed in the candidate in my constituioncy and not because it was fianna fail.i voted for a fine gael councillor in the council elections and i voted no to lisbon. so how can you call me the heart of fianna fail?
your obviously the heart of fine gael if you get so worked up over my prevoius post.
Quotepersonally id vote for fianna fail again simply because i think the only politician on the other side of the house worth his salt is richard bruton. in fact i think he is one of the better politicians in dail eireann. the rest wouldnt run a race in my eyes never mind a goverment.
the lot that are there now are the best of a bad lot.
Apologies in advance for the language, but it's shite like the above that makes me despair about the future of this country.
That shower of muppets in FF have been in government for 15 years and look where we are.
And you'd vote the same lazy, arrogant, incompotent wasters back in again! :o
Perhaps FG/Lab wouldn't be much better, but they're surely worth a chance. The thought of the same bunch leading the country for another decade would make me sick.
And that gobshite Bertie Ahern is going on The Late Late tonight - no doubt the audienc will be made up of fawning followers there to cheer the great man. That fella has a lot more to answer for than Brian Cowen or Brian Lenihan, who he was left to shoulder all the blame. Teflon Taoiseach, spot on.
Quote from: deiseach on October 09, 2009, 02:30:36 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 09, 2009, 02:10:41 PM
Deiseach,
Your reply doesnt really deserve a response but humour me and tell me where are these rabbits torn apart?
Sorry. Should have said hares ;)
Deiseach,
Add all the little smilies you like but you are showing your ignorance again. For the last 10 years greyhounds have been muzzled for coursing. If it wasnt for the efforts of the coursing clubs in Ireland then the Irish Hare would be an endangered species.
Quote from: Gnevin on October 09, 2009, 02:39:19 PM
Quote from: rossie mad on October 09, 2009, 02:20:21 PM
personally id vote for fianna fail again simply because i think the only politician on the other side of the house worth his salt is richard bruton. in fact i think he is one of the better politicians in dail eireann. the rest wouldnt run a race in my eyes never mind a goverment.
the lot that are there now are the best of a bad lot.
What would it take for you too vote against FF. At the moment a shit throwing chimp couldn't do worse than FF.
Well it isnt about voting against fianna fail.
if a candidate is good enough in my constituency and i believe in him or her they get my vote whether fianna fail, fine gael or christian solidarity.
if kenny was removed as leader of the opposition and a competent politician like r bruton or simon coveney replaced him well then in my eyes i would believe we would have a good voice for ireland however that chimp is about the only hope we have over both sides of dail eireann
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 09, 2009, 03:07:41 PM
If it wasnt for the efforts of the coursing clubs in Ireland then the Irish Hare would be an endangered species.
Fair enough about the muzzles, but how have coursing clubs saved the hare? We have loads of hares around our place at home. I remember watching the mother going around to all the leverets in turn to feed them. Used to leave them in the grown grass plots where cow poo had been.
Quote from: Tubberman on October 09, 2009, 03:01:24 PM
Quotepersonally id vote for fianna fail again simply because i think the only politician on the other side of the house worth his salt is richard bruton. in fact i think he is one of the better politicians in dail eireann. the rest wouldnt run a race in my eyes never mind a goverment.
the lot that are there now are the best of a bad lot.
Apologies in advance for the language, but it's shite like the above that makes me despair about the future of this country.
That shower of muppets in FF have been in government for 15 years and look where we are.
And you'd vote the same lazy, arrogant, incompotent wasters back in again! :o
Perhaps FG/Lab wouldn't be much better, but they're surely worth a chance. The thought of the same bunch leading the country for another decade would make me sick.
And that gobshite Bertie Ahern is going on The Late Late tonight - no doubt the audienc will be made up of fawning followers there to cheer the great man. That fella has a lot more to answer for than Brian Cowen or Brian Lenihan, who he was left to shoulder all the blame. Teflon Taoiseach, spot on.
I only expressed my opinion. can i not vote for who i want? i dont go off my head when people tell me who or what they vote.
bertie went along with all the vested interests and thought it would last forever then when it was getting hot under the collar he instated his yes man.
Quote from: Aerlik on October 09, 2009, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 09, 2009, 03:07:41 PM
If it wasnt for the efforts of the coursing clubs in Ireland then the Irish Hare would be an endangered species.
Fair enough about the muzzles, but how have coursing clubs saved the hare? We have loads of hares around our place at home. I remember watching the mother going around to all the leverets in turn to feed them. Used to leave them in the grown grass plots where cow poo had been.
Aerlik,
Hare coursing has a yearly ban imposed in Northern Ireland, introduced by a direct rule minister, take a bow Ms OWC. A recent independent study carried out by Queens University found that the number of the Irish Hare in Northern Ireland is in serious decline whilst figures produced in the south show the hare population to be in a very healthy state. I have eyes of my own and can see the stocks dwindling year on year.
When coursing clubs are preparing for their annual meeting they hares are held in a reserve for some weeks before hand where they are exceptionally well cared for and rigourous helath checks are undertaken. In the hare reserves at the coursing fields they are safe from predators. After the meeting all hares are returned to the exact location from where they where originally taken. Coursing clubs take great steps to protect the hares from poaching by gangs with packs of lurchers.
I don't buy it Rossie.
If I hear ''people are angry at the Government right now - and rightly so - but lets not blah blah blah" I might just go mad.
All I heard during the last election from the local FFers was - aye the Government are different I'm running for the local. I'm a local guy blah blah. Turns out they are all the same.
FF are the biggest threat to Ireland since the blight.
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 09, 2009, 03:07:41 PM
Add all the little smilies you like but you are showing your ignorance again. For the last 10 years greyhounds have been muzzled for coursing. If it wasnt for the efforts of the coursing clubs in Ireland then the Irish Hare would be an endangered species.
You're quite right, I did not know that. Apologies.
Its all posturing out of the Greens. FF will fob them off with promises of a few cycle lanes and windfarms and they'll fall into line. They'd be absolutely wiped out if there was an election in the next month or two.
Personally I think FG and Lab are better off out of government at the moment as well. The economy is going to get worse before it gets better and FF will continue to ship the blame and lose support.
Whether a change of government would be better for the country at this time, I don't know. I'd certainly give FG and Lab a chance. As a previous poster has already mentioned though, FG have in their ranks one of the best performers in the Dáil in Richard Bruton. FG would be a more viable option with him at the helm instead of the wooden Inda.
QuoteThe country is on the brink of a snap General Election today as negotiations between Fianna Fáil and the Green Party for a new Programme for Government falter.
Green Party Ministers are believed to be on the verge of withdrawing from Government as both parties struggle to conclude difficult negotiations on a new programme.
It is currently looking unlikely that agreement can be reached.
Education and the reform of politician's expenses are thought to be the main stumbling blocks.
Cork Senator and Green Party chairman Dan Boyle, a member of the Green negotiating team, today said that if agreement was not reached by mid-afternoon, the Green Party ministers were seriously considering pulling out of Government.
Senator Boyle said the talks had become frustrating.
"There's an air of unreality on the part of the Fianna Fáil team in terms of what they can and can't do, and what being in Government is going to be like for them for the next two or three years," he said.
He said that both sides were aware that should the talks collapse, it would lead to a disastrous General Election for both parties.
Meetings of the Green Party parliamentary party meeting and the National Executive Council of the party were going on today. Party leader John Gormley was also expected to meet with Taoiseach Brian Cowen over the course of the day.
About 700 Green Party members were due to meet in Dublin's RDS tomorrow to vote on the new Programme for Government, and the Nama legislation.
Senator Boyle said he would be confident that the party members would support a new Programme for Government, but added that securing a programme to put before members was looking uncertain this morning.
Green Party members around the country have been told not to make any definite travel arrangements for the time being, indicating the meeting may not go ahead, or could become an election rally.
Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ff-have-air-of-unreality-at-programme-for-government-talks-429583.html#ixzz0TS5ULmTR
:o If they're still just playing games with FF, they're pretty convincing!
Looks like we could have a GE before xmas. I won't believe it until I hear it from Gormley or Cowen though...
Also worth pointing out that RTÉ aren't reporting negotiations to be so close to collapse.
You have to wonder about the opposition too. Labour issued a statement saying that a fall in prices was not a reason to cut welfare. Of course if prices had risen then this would be a reason to raise welfare. When the country is broke is no time for real welfare increases.
Fianna fail like labour in britain had it too good in the good times and didnt do enough to improve the countries infrastructure,health system and homegrown industry.
However they are now having to make the tough decisions and getting plenty of flak for it in the process (rightly so ) and i see this as a good thing in that they actually are doing things that will actually help this country in the long term and this in turn is making them better politicians instead of going with the gravy train like they were used too.
It might sound bizarre but i believe because they got us into this mess they might actually try harder to get us out of it.
Then when or if they do get us out of the recession get rid of them. then see what the rest of them mite do differently.
I said before the last election that the best thing for Fianna Fail to do in their own selfish interests would have been to not agree any coalition deal, and spend a term in opposition. That way when Labour/FG/Greens etc etc started flailing about trying to sort out the mess, Fianna Fail could tutt tutt away meaningfully in the corner. By the last election, everyone knew what was coming down the pipes, and I thought it was a massive gamble at the time for Cowen to take the reins in those circumstances.
FF seem to have taken another tack, i.e. that being in power is better than being out of power, no matter what, and they hope to hunker down and ride the storm, hoping a global turnaround will lift all boats, thus allowing them to show what great lads they were, and how their tough decisions have paid off.
That's looking like a highly toxic decision at the moment. Better for them for FG and Labour to be wading through sh*t, and even if they blamed FF for the mess, the public would be harder on the government than the opposition.
Of course it may happen yet, but I don't know if FG and Lab actually have the stomach to try and mop up at the moment. Timing is everything in politics, and FG and Lab would like to catch the wave coming up rather than down.
What's the math by the way? If the Greens walk, then the Government are down 6. Will the independents walk as well, or will O'Donoghue moving to a normal seat, probably with Howlin moving to Ceann Comhairle still make FF viable?
I'm no fan of any kind of bloodsport. However I do believe in the culling of pests, when and where it is warranted. If I could I would get a gun licence here because of the damage done by feral cats and foxes. Some of the cats are so healthy in the bush they look as big as dingoes.
That is sad to hear about the progressive demise of the hare. Other species I know that are on the decline are the bullfinch, snowbunting, linnet, reed bunting and one of our most beautiful wee birds the Goldfinch
I dont believe the greens will pull out
It would be political suicide.
Even if they do it doesnt automatically imply an election. Options include a minority government, New coalition with labour,or even some of the green tds leaving the party if the party rejects the new deal and staying in government "for the sake of the country" Personally i think they'll be bought off with windmills carbon tax and such other things that excite them.
I see the greens have agreed in principle to a deal to stay in government at the last hour, will go to a vote to party members tomorrow.
Just in time for the 9 o'clock news :D
An almighty victory for the Greens to take it to the wire and put FF backs to the wall on this. I wonder will the membership take notice? ::)
It was obvious that they had agreed hours ago, they where sitting around having cups of tea pretending to be playing hardball.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 09, 2009, 10:50:40 PM
It was obvious that they had agreed hours ago, they where sitting around having cups of tea pretending to be playing hardball.
How is it obvious?
These negotiations were only for the optics, to appease the more gullible of their supporters. There was never any question of them pulling the plug for two reasons, they are totally devoid of principle and Turkeys dont vote for Christmas
Does that mean the poor Hares are fecked?
Quote from: Pangurban on October 09, 2009, 11:49:33 PM
These negotiations were only for the optics, to appease the more gullible of their supporters. There was never any question of them pulling the plug for two reasons, they are totally devoid of principle and Turkeys dont vote for Christmas
Exactly, the same game they played when they agreed to enter government in the 1st place. Anyone remember that little charade? I would have always of thought the greens as a party with principles but clearly they only have 1 or 2 principles and everything else matters not a shite.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 10, 2009, 03:19:34 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on October 09, 2009, 11:49:33 PM
These negotiations were only for the optics, to appease the more gullible of their supporters. There was never any question of them pulling the plug for two reasons, they are totally devoid of principle and Turkeys dont vote for Christmas
Exactly, the same game they played when they agreed to enter government in the 1st place. Anyone remember that little charade? I would have always of thought the greens as a party with principles but clearly they only have 1 or 2 principles and everything else matters not a shite.
They are quickly turning into The New Progressive Democrats.
Did any of ye hear the interview on the last word during the week with the ex-green party Councillor from Drogheda? It was priceless and showed the craziness of this party. Basically, this guy had resurrected 100 paid up greens that were sort of dormant. Guys that had a vote at these green conventions but rarely used it. He was going to effectively black mail gormley into accepting a proposal this 100 had in return for them voting to stay in government and to support NAMA. He reckoned his 100 could be as much as 30% of those present. And what was this important issue Mr Ex green Councillor from Drogheda wanted you might ask, why a ban on fur farming in Ireland of course. Only some nut job green could put NAMA and fur farming in the one sentence, never mind use one as a "swap" for the other. Fur farming is worth a whooping €5m to the coffers each year, NAMA will cost 10's of billions of euro.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 10, 2009, 03:27:54 PM
Did any of ye hear the interview on the last word during the week with the ex-green party Councillor from Drogheda? It was priceless and showed the craziness of this party. Basically, this guy had resurrected 100 paid up greens that were sort of dormant. Guys that had a vote at these green conventions but rarely used it. He was going to effectively black mail gormley into accepting a proposal this 100 had in return for them voting to stay in government and to support NAMA. He reckoned his 100 could be as much as 30% of those present. And what was this important issue Mr Ex green Councillor from Drogheda wanted you might ask, why a ban on fur farming in Ireland of course. Only some nut job green could put NAMA and fur farming in the one sentence, never mind use one as a "swap" for the other. Fur farming is worth a whooping €5m to the coffers each year, NAMA will cost 10's of billions of euro.
I didn't hear the interview, but I was told about it yesterday. The Greens manage to make Sinn Fein look positively 3 dimensional.
Can someone explain to me WTF fur farming is?
Is there some factory on the outskirts of some God forsaken place raising minks to turn them into coats for stupid wimmin?
Why this - why not ban abbatoirs and the whole beef industry as well. Don't cattle have feelings too, like the minks.
Do vegetarians wear leather sandals? Do vegetarians realise that many tablets for medication have animal fats in them?
I'm bored doing tax returns, sorry..allow me some rant time
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 10, 2009, 03:33:21 PM
Can someone explain to me WTF fur farming is?
Is there some factory on the outskirts of some God forsaken place raising minks to turn them into coats for stupid wimmin?
Why this - why not ban abbatoirs and the whole beef industry as well. Don't cattle have feelings too, like the minks.
Do vegetarians wear leather sandals? Do vegetarians realise that many tablets for medication have animal fats in them?
I'm bored doing tax returns, sorry..allow me some rant time
The girl who told me about the interview said the guy was asked the same thing & he said they would make everyone give up meat if they had there way!!!!! The luny fringe or what, no its just the Green Party.
Darn, I was looking forward to an election. There's potential for a relaignment of Irish politics that we haven't seen since 1932. It'll come . . .
Quote from: deiseach on October 10, 2009, 03:46:27 PM
Darn, I was looking forward to an election. There's potential for a relaignment of Irish politics that we haven't seen since 1932. It'll come . . .
What odds of
FG & SF
V
FF & Greens
V
Lab, Soc. & Indp.
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 10, 2009, 03:33:21 PM
Can someone explain to me WTF fur farming is?
Is there some factory on the outskirts of some God forsaken place raising minks to turn them into coats for stupid wimmin?
Why this - why not ban abbatoirs and the whole beef industry as well. Don't cattle have feelings too, like the minks.
Do vegetarians wear leather sandals? Do vegetarians realise that many tablets for medication have animal fats in them?
I'm bored doing tax returns, sorry..allow me some rant time
Fur farming is the raising of minks to slaughter for their coats. There are 5 farms in ireland employing about 100 people at peak season.
I bet these greens never swatted a fly. I wonder does he get of his bike when the midge come out in the evening for fear of squashing them. Their position is totally idiotic. Freedom for cuddly animals.
Them mink farms are dangerous fecking yokes though. I'm sure that's not the Green's reason for banning them, but there's loads of stories of Minks breaking out, and when they do, they are dangerous bastards.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 10, 2009, 05:19:53 PM
Them mink farms are dangerous fecking yokes though. I'm sure that's not the Green's reason for banning them, but there's loads of stories of Minks breaking out, and when they do, they are dangerous b**tards.
The only record of a large escape from a mink farm was when the those wingnuts from the ICABS, card carrying memebers of the Green party as alluded to by the clown from Drogheda on the Last Word earlier in the week, broke in and let them lose. They wiped out every other small wild animal in the area and now have a firm foothold in Ireland on account of this.
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 10, 2009, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 10, 2009, 05:19:53 PM
Them mink farms are dangerous fecking yokes though. I'm sure that's not the Green's reason for banning them, but there's loads of stories of Minks breaking out, and when they do, they are dangerous b**tards.
The only record of a large escape from a mink farm was when the those wingnuts from the ICABS, card carrying memebers of the Green party as alluded to by the clown from Drogheda on the Last Word earlier in the week, broke in and let them lose. They wiped out every other small wild animal in the area and now have a firm foothold in Ireland on account of this.
Mink have been escaping fur farms in Ireland for more than 50 years and have had established breeding populations in the wild for nearly as long. Whether or not sabotage resulting in large releases is idiotic (it is), how is the colonization of Ireland by the mink the fault of the greens?
Whatever about the stupidity of making a deal on NAMA in exchange for action on fur farming, the practice should be illegal, end of story. There is no defense in this day and age for farming wild species for their fur.
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 09, 2009, 03:31:53 PM
Quote from: Aerlik on October 09, 2009, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 09, 2009, 03:07:41 PM
If it wasnt for the efforts of the coursing clubs in Ireland then the Irish Hare would be an endangered species.
Fair enough about the muzzles, but how have coursing clubs saved the hare? We have loads of hares around our place at home. I remember watching the mother going around to all the leverets in turn to feed them. Used to leave them in the grown grass plots where cow poo had been.
Aerlik,
Hare coursing has a yearly ban imposed in Northern Ireland, introduced by a direct rule minister, take a bow Ms OWC. A recent independent study carried out by Queens University found that the number of the Irish Hare in Northern Ireland is in serious decline whilst figures produced in the south show the hare population to be in a very healthy state. I have eyes of my own and can see the stocks dwindling year on year.
When coursing clubs are preparing for their annual meeting they hares are held in a reserve for some weeks before hand where they are exceptionally well cared for and rigourous helath checks are undertaken. In the hare reserves at the coursing fields they are safe from predators. After the meeting all hares are returned to the exact location from where they where originally taken. Coursing clubs take great steps to protect the hares from poaching by gangs with packs of lurchers.
The Queens study (Ian Montgomery's group?) found the decline in hare numbers in the north (both species?) was down to the lack of "protection" offered by coursing clubs? Or due to factors such as modern farming practices, especially the proliferation of silage making in recent decades or perhaps competition from the brown hare which had established breeding population after being introduced in the norht? Is there any evidence that the protection from predators by coursing clubs has any effect on populations? What percentage of captured hares are successfully returned to the wild? Have there been any follow-up studies done to assess the effect of capture and coursing on survival after release? (Honest questions)
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 10, 2009, 04:43:35 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 10, 2009, 03:33:21 PM
Can someone explain to me WTF fur farming is?
Is there some factory on the outskirts of some God forsaken place raising minks to turn them into coats for stupid wimmin?
Why this - why not ban abbatoirs and the whole beef industry as well. Don't cattle have feelings too, like the minks.
Do vegetarians wear leather sandals? Do vegetarians realise that many tablets for medication have animal fats in them?
I'm bored doing tax returns, sorry..allow me some rant time
Fur farming is the raising of minks to slaughter for their coats. There are 5 farms in ireland employing about 100 people at peak season.
I bet these greens never swatted a fly. I wonder does he get of his bike when the midge come out in the evening for fear of squashing them. Their position is totally idiotic. Freedom for cuddly animals.
Keeping wild, non-social animals in close quarters in cramped cages just so some pampered diva or trophy wife can wear a fur coat is idiotic. Animal rights people may be misguided about some issues, but this certainly is not one of them.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 10, 2009, 05:19:53 PM
Them mink farms are dangerous fecking yokes though. I'm sure that's not the Green's reason for banning them, but there's loads of stories of Minks breaking out, and when they do, they are dangerous b**tards.
Correct! Mink are dangerous! Let's move on to the next topic or this could be traumatic for AZ!!
Quote from: J70 on October 11, 2009, 02:40:08 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 10, 2009, 04:43:35 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 10, 2009, 03:33:21 PM
Can someone explain to me WTF fur farming is?
Is there some factory on the outskirts of some God forsaken place raising minks to turn them into coats for stupid wimmin?
Why this - why not ban abbatoirs and the whole beef industry as well. Don't cattle have feelings too, like the minks.
Do vegetarians wear leather sandals? Do vegetarians realise that many tablets for medication have animal fats in them?
I'm bored doing tax returns, sorry..allow me some rant time
Fur farming is the raising of minks to slaughter for their coats. There are 5 farms in ireland employing about 100 people at peak season.
I bet these greens never swatted a fly. I wonder does he get of his bike when the midge come out in the evening for fear of squashing them. Their position is totally idiotic. Freedom for cuddly animals.
Keeping wild, non-social animals in close quarters in cramped cages just so some pampered diva or trophy wife can wear a fur coat is idiotic. Animal rights people may be misguided about some issues, but this certainly is not one of them.
Should the manufacture of leather be banned or is it only wrong when the animal has a cuddly coat. The animals are hardly wild if they are bred into captivity for farming purposes no more than egg laying hen is a wild animal. It is a nonsense argument. The greens would be better in convincing the "diva" to not buy fur than banning its farming and in doing so wrecking someones living.
It seems that the answer to "will the greens pull the plug", Is
Mink farming may or may not be a good idea.
Im going to accept ther real world answer. No.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 11, 2009, 04:08:53 PM
Should the manufacture of leather be banned or is it only wrong when the animal has a cuddly coat. The animals are hardly wild if they are bred into captivity for farming purposes no more than egg laying hen is a wild animal. It is a nonsense argument. The greens would be better in convincing the "diva" to not buy fur than banning its farming and in doing so wrecking someones living.
I think the difference is that mink are bred solely for there coat. I guess the rest goes to waste were as with leather you have it as an extra to meat and it would be a waste not to sell leather.
Quote from: Zapatista on October 11, 2009, 05:57:05 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 11, 2009, 04:08:53 PM
Should the manufacture of leather be banned or is it only wrong when the animal has a cuddly coat. The animals are hardly wild if they are bred into captivity for farming purposes no more than egg laying hen is a wild animal. It is a nonsense argument. The greens would be better in convincing the "diva" to not buy fur than banning its farming and in doing so wrecking someones living.
I think the difference is that mink are bred solely for there coat. I guess the rest goes to waste were as with leather you have it as an extra to meat and it would be a waste not to sell leather.
So if the farmer ate the mink it would be ok? The world is gone mad. Do we have to eat a fly if we splat it with a newspaper? The later is a bit extreme but I really hate these green muppets ranting on about animal fur when they are nothing buy hypocrites.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 11, 2009, 04:08:53 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 11, 2009, 02:40:08 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 10, 2009, 04:43:35 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 10, 2009, 03:33:21 PM
Can someone explain to me WTF fur farming is?
Is there some factory on the outskirts of some God forsaken place raising minks to turn them into coats for stupid wimmin?
Why this - why not ban abbatoirs and the whole beef industry as well. Don't cattle have feelings too, like the minks.
Do vegetarians wear leather sandals? Do vegetarians realise that many tablets for medication have animal fats in them?
I'm bored doing tax returns, sorry..allow me some rant time
Fur farming is the raising of minks to slaughter for their coats. There are 5 farms in ireland employing about 100 people at peak season.
I bet these greens never swatted a fly. I wonder does he get of his bike when the midge come out in the evening for fear of squashing them. Their position is totally idiotic. Freedom for cuddly animals.
Keeping wild, non-social animals in close quarters in cramped cages just so some pampered diva or trophy wife can wear a fur coat is idiotic. Animal rights people may be misguided about some issues, but this certainly is not one of them.
Should the manufacture of leather be banned or is it only wrong when the animal has a cuddly coat. The animals are hardly wild if they are bred into captivity for farming purposes no more than egg laying hen is a wild animal. It is a nonsense argument. The greens would be better in convincing the "diva" to not buy fur than banning its farming and in doing so wrecking someones living.
Whether or not they're bred in captivity is irrelevant. They're still wild animals with wild animal instincts and social systems. Cattle, sheep, dogs, chickens etc have been domesticated and bred for thousands of years to accentuate behavioural and anatomical/physiological characteristics that allow them to be farmed or to live with humans (which is isn't to say that everything that goes on in those fields are acceptable either). And if the only argument for fur farming is that the banning of it would "wreck someones living", I can think of plenty of other endeavors that could be legalized to create work.
Quote from: J70 on October 11, 2009, 07:06:36 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 11, 2009, 04:08:53 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 11, 2009, 02:40:08 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 10, 2009, 04:43:35 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 10, 2009, 03:33:21 PM
Can someone explain to me WTF fur farming is?
Is there some factory on the outskirts of some God forsaken place raising minks to turn them into coats for stupid wimmin?
Why this - why not ban abbatoirs and the whole beef industry as well. Don't cattle have feelings too, like the minks.
Do vegetarians wear leather sandals? Do vegetarians realise that many tablets for medication have animal fats in them?
I'm bored doing tax returns, sorry..allow me some rant time
Fur farming is the raising of minks to slaughter for their coats. There are 5 farms in ireland employing about 100 people at peak season.
I bet these greens never swatted a fly. I wonder does he get of his bike when the midge come out in the evening for fear of squashing them. Their position is totally idiotic. Freedom for cuddly animals.
Keeping wild, non-social animals in close quarters in cramped cages just so some pampered diva or trophy wife can wear a fur coat is idiotic. Animal rights people may be misguided about some issues, but this certainly is not one of them.
Should the manufacture of leather be banned or is it only wrong when the animal has a cuddly coat. The animals are hardly wild if they are bred into captivity for farming purposes no more than egg laying hen is a wild animal. It is a nonsense argument. The greens would be better in convincing the "diva" to not buy fur than banning its farming and in doing so wrecking someones living.
Whether or not they're bred in captivity is irrelevant. They're still wild animals with wild animal instincts and social systems. Cattle, sheep, dogs, chickens etc have been domesticated and bred for thousands of years to accentuate behavioural and anatomical/physiological characteristics that allow them to be farmed or to live with humans (which is isn't to say that everything that goes on in those fields are acceptable either). And if the only argument for fur farming is that the banning of it would "wreck someones living", I can think of plenty of other endeavors that could be legalized to create work.
Gives more reason to the famous quote "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others". So an animal defined as "wild" may not be slaughtered but a animal defined as "domesticated" may not be (ignoring the fact that the definition of this is not so simple either). Sorry J70, that just doesn't hold water for me. Its either all wrong or all acceptable in my book.
BTW - Are fish wild or domesticated?
Quote from: J70 on October 11, 2009, 02:34:58 AM
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 09, 2009, 03:31:53 PM
Quote from: Aerlik on October 09, 2009, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 09, 2009, 03:07:41 PM
If it wasnt for the efforts of the coursing clubs in Ireland then the Irish Hare would be an endangered species.
Fair enough about the muzzles, but how have coursing clubs saved the hare? We have loads of hares around our place at home. I remember watching the mother going around to all the leverets in turn to feed them. Used to leave them in the grown grass plots where cow poo had been.
Aerlik,
Hare coursing has a yearly ban imposed in Northern Ireland, introduced by a direct rule minister, take a bow Ms OWC. A recent independent study carried out by Queens University found that the number of the Irish Hare in Northern Ireland is in serious decline whilst figures produced in the south show the hare population to be in a very healthy state. I have eyes of my own and can see the stocks dwindling year on year.
When coursing clubs are preparing for their annual meeting they hares are held in a reserve for some weeks before hand where they are exceptionally well cared for and rigourous helath checks are undertaken. In the hare reserves at the coursing fields they are safe from predators. After the meeting all hares are returned to the exact location from where they where originally taken. Coursing clubs take great steps to protect the hares from poaching by gangs with packs of lurchers.
The Queens study (Ian Montgomery's group?) found the decline in hare numbers in the north (both species?) was down to the lack of "protection" offered by coursing clubs? Or due to factors such as modern farming practices, especially the proliferation of silage making in recent decades or perhaps competition from the brown hare which had established breeding population after being introduced in the norht? Is there any evidence that the protection from predators by coursing clubs has any effect on populations? What percentage of captured hares are successfully returned to the wild? Have there been any follow-up studies done to assess the effect of capture and coursing on survival after release? (Honest questions)
J70,
Honest questions deserve an honest answer and I will give them as best I can.
The Brown Hare, this is imo, is thriving in West Tyrone not far from where it was originally introduced on the Baronscourt Estate. The Irish Hare is not in such great health, partly due to the changes you have mentioned in your post but definetly also due to the annual ban on coursing in the North. This has been discussed in detail with Neil Reid and Ian Montgomery but no conclusions can be made as a study based on that assertion has not been carried out and is unlikely to be. However, my own opinion is based on the comparison with the south where the Irish Hare is in a much better shape. The Irish Park Wardens annual report would also back this line of thinking.
Regarding your other questions.
98% of captured hares are returned to their habitat after coursing, you may think this is a high figure but it is the figure that the Quercus group arrived at after their most recent study.
To date no follow up studies have been carried out on survival after release. They only reasonably accurate way of doing this would be a tagging system that all parties thing wouldnt be the best of ideas due to the physiology of the hare.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 11, 2009, 08:12:55 PM
Gives more reason to the famous quote "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others". So an animal defined as "wild" may not be slaughtered but a animal defined as "domesticated" may not be (ignoring the fact that the definition of this is not so simple either). Sorry J70, that just doesn't hold water for me. Its either all wrong or all acceptable in my book.
BTW - Are fish wild or domesticated?
"Equality" has nothing to do with it. Whether an animal can be kept, at a minimum of stress, in something resembling its natural conditions is the issue. You can do this farming cattle and sheep and so on. You cannot do this with fur-bearing species who in the wild roam large areas in a solitary existence. Unless you're going to suggest mink or bears living in cramped cages, highly stressed, constantly clawing at each other or reduced to repetitive pacing or other stereotyped behaviour is somehow equivalent to a herd of cattle lying chewing the cud out in a pasture? If the fur-bearers were raised for some purpose essential to human needs, that would be one thing, but I'm sorry, keeping them in those circumstances just to make fur coats is indefensible.
"Fish" covers more than 20,000 species. You're going to have to be a little more specific, pardon the pun. Some fish are bred for certain characteristics, but whether that is equivalent to the degree of domestication undergone by cattle or dogs, I would highly doubt. But I try not to support fishing, not primarily due to the potential cruelty of the capture process or even the objectionable effects of fish farming, but mostly because I object to the wanton overfishing that has taken place over the past century. I very, very rarely eat fish. That said, if angling is helpful in the bigger picture in that it motivates authorities and communities to conserve and manage water systems for the benefit of wildlife, that is a good thing. Its not a simple black and white, all or nothing issue.
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 11, 2009, 08:44:52 PM
J70,
Honest questions deserve an honest answer and I will give them as best I can.
The Brown Hare, this is imo, is thriving in West Tyrone not far from where it was originally introduced on the Baronscourt Estate. The Irish Hare is not in such great health, partly due to the changes you have mentioned in your post but definetly also due to the annual ban on coursing in the North. This has been discussed in detail with Neil Reid and Ian Montgomery but no conclusions can be made as a study based on that assertion has not been carried out and is unlikely to be. However, my own opinion is based on the comparison with the south where the Irish Hare is in a much better shape. The Irish Park Wardens annual report would also back this line of thinking.
Regarding your other questions.
98% of captured hares are returned to their habitat after coursing, you may think this is a high figure but it is the figure that the Quercus group arrived at after their most recent study.
To date no follow up studies have been carried out on survival after release. They only reasonably accurate way of doing this would be a tagging system that all parties thing wouldnt be the best of ideas due to the physiology of the hare.
Thank you. It appears that you're working with the scientists on this, which can only be a good thing. Is the brown hare protected in the north? As a non-native species, which is potentially having an adverse impact on the native mountain hare, I can't see it being considered of much conservation value.
Quote from: J70 on October 11, 2009, 09:03:01 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 11, 2009, 08:44:52 PM
J70,
Honest questions deserve an honest answer and I will give them as best I can.
The Brown Hare, this is imo, is thriving in West Tyrone not far from where it was originally introduced on the Baronscourt Estate. The Irish Hare is not in such great health, partly due to the changes you have mentioned in your post but definetly also due to the annual ban on coursing in the North. This has been discussed in detail with Neil Reid and Ian Montgomery but no conclusions can be made as a study based on that assertion has not been carried out and is unlikely to be. However, my own opinion is based on the comparison with the south where the Irish Hare is in a much better shape. The Irish Park Wardens annual report would also back this line of thinking.
Regarding your other questions.
98% of captured hares are returned to their habitat after coursing, you may think this is a high figure but it is the figure that the Quercus group arrived at after their most recent study.
To date no follow up studies have been carried out on survival after release. They only reasonably accurate way of doing this would be a tagging system that all parties thing wouldnt be the best of ideas due to the physiology of the hare.
Thank you. It appears that you're working with the scientists on this, which can only be a good thing. Is the brown hare protected in the north? As a non-native species, which is potentially having an adverse impact on the native mountain hare, I can't see it being considered of much conservation value.
J70,
I would be in favour of a complete cull of the Brown Hare, its not protected. Its highly unlikely to be permitted for political reasons but it has no ecological value and hybridisation is a very real threat. The Irish Hare is one of very very few pure native Irish species and should be celebrated as such. Just as a slight correction, the Irish Hare is very different from the Mountain Hare found in the UK which makes it all the more special. What anti courisng supporters fail to take into account is the esteem that coursing followers have for the hare.
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 11, 2009, 09:11:36 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 11, 2009, 09:03:01 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 11, 2009, 08:44:52 PM
J70,
Honest questions deserve an honest answer and I will give them as best I can.
The Brown Hare, this is imo, is thriving in West Tyrone not far from where it was originally introduced on the Baronscourt Estate. The Irish Hare is not in such great health, partly due to the changes you have mentioned in your post but definetly also due to the annual ban on coursing in the North. This has been discussed in detail with Neil Reid and Ian Montgomery but no conclusions can be made as a study based on that assertion has not been carried out and is unlikely to be. However, my own opinion is based on the comparison with the south where the Irish Hare is in a much better shape. The Irish Park Wardens annual report would also back this line of thinking.
Regarding your other questions.
98% of captured hares are returned to their habitat after coursing, you may think this is a high figure but it is the figure that the Quercus group arrived at after their most recent study.
To date no follow up studies have been carried out on survival after release. They only reasonably accurate way of doing this would be a tagging system that all parties thing wouldnt be the best of ideas due to the physiology of the hare.
Thank you. It appears that you're working with the scientists on this, which can only be a good thing. Is the brown hare protected in the north? As a non-native species, which is potentially having an adverse impact on the native mountain hare, I can't see it being considered of much conservation value.
J70,
I would be in favour of a complete cull of the Brown Hare, its not protected. Its highly unlikely to be permitted for political reasons but it has no ecological value and hybridisation is a very real threat. The Irish Hare is one of very very few pure native Irish species and should be celebrated as such. Just as a slight correction, the Irish Hare is very different from the Mountain Hare found in the UK which makes it all the more special. What anti courisng supporters fail to take into account is the esteem that coursing followers have for the hare.
Well it is still a mountain hare,
Lepus timidus, although it is considered a distinct subspecies, endemic to Ireland. Unless its taxonomy has been reviewed and it is now considered a distinct species? (I have not been keeping up on Irish wildlife as well as I should since moving to the states a few years ago)
Regarding the cull, yes that would be difficult with a furry, charismatic species such as a hare e.g. the uproar over the current hedgehog cull in the Hebrides. But, people need to be educated that sometimes a greater conservation good has to be served and that hunting and culls are often a necessary evil. Its happened in Ireland before with the campaign in the early thirties that lead to the extermination of the muskrat, which has established a wild, breeding population in the Lough Derg region of Tipperary after a few individuals escaped from fur farms, although I don't think, given the times and the fact that the animal in question looks like a very large rat that much objection was raised!
Are there any plans to cull the Eastern Grey Squirrel, as far as I understand it has made it into most counties East of the Shannon.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 11, 2009, 11:52:32 PM
Are there any plans to cull the Eastern Grey Squirrel, as far as I understand it has made it into most counties East of the Shannon.
A UCD group had been doing experimental culls in the Phoenix Park with a view to exterminating them there and reintroducing the reds. Not sure of the status of that project at the moment though. I think it would be a fairly unrealistic challenge to eradicate them nationwide at this point, although I suppose it would be possible over an extended period.