Serious question,
apart from the stuff we did in R.E. class at school, has anyone ever done Bible study course? I ask because there's an 8-week course being run by our church in Perth and I'm keen to go along. I have images of US-style bible-bashing and the hallelujah brigade which will be a major turn-off.
My good mate, a Muslim, has been telling me about the very close links between the Koran and the Old Testament. There's a prayer to Mary in it. And, Muslims venerate the name of Mary when they use it as she was the mother of the prophet Jesus. Not quite the same links to the Talmud though.
QuoteMy good mate, a Muslim, has been telling me about the very close links between the Koran and the Old Testament.
The Bible is seen as a holy book by muslims - they believe in Jesus (as a prophet second to muhamed) etc.
I think the old testament would be similar as islam and judaism's origins are pretty much the same - i think i read before that the difference starts at which son abraham was going to sacrifice.
I'm looking forward to the discussion about the Council of Nicaea (sp) in 325AD (sp).
Quote from: Aerlik on September 28, 2009, 08:54:51 AM
Serious question,
apart from the stuff we did in R.E. class at school, has anyone ever done Bible study course? I ask because there's an 8-week course being run by our church in Perth and I'm keen to go along. I have images of US-style bible-bashing and the hallelujah brigade which will be a major turn-off.
My good mate, a Muslim, has been telling me about the very close links between the Koran and the Old Testament. There's a prayer to Mary in it. And, Muslims venerate the name of Mary when they use it as she was the mother of the prophet Jesus. Not quite the same links to the Talmud though.
Can i ask what country this Muslim mate of yours hails from ?
Flip, there's a lot of religious stuff on the board these days.
I'd say that the Bible class would be interesting. And there's always a few young nubile uninitiated women at those thing Aerlik.
I think when reviewing the Bible, you've got to remember the context, i.e.
The Earth was flat
The Sun revolved around the Earth
Ireland was united
The world began some 6000 years earlier
Slavery was okay
It was a six day week
Religious people ruled
I think it would be a very interesting thing to do as long as it is not run by people with a vested interest in having you believe their interpretation of the bible!
The Bible, i dont know what to make of it to be honest, its up to you own interpretation, religious leaders in muslim world interpretated the quran to suit an agenda to treat women as second class citizens although its changing, i dont think ive ever met a more hyprocritical and poisnoneous race of people in all my life. Stories I could tell.
Should be a interesting course, but still not sure its all true. All religions cant be right. Someones lying.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on September 28, 2009, 11:17:31 AM
The Bible, i dont know what to make of it to be honest, its up to you own interpretation, religious leaders in muslim world interpretated the quran to suit an agenda to treat women as second class citizens although its changing, i dont think ive ever met a more hyprocritical and poisnoneous race of people in all my life. Stories I could tell.
Should be a interesting course, but still not sure its all true. All religions cant be right. Someones lying.
Would agree with that. Guttersnipes one and all.
Quote from: man in black on September 28, 2009, 11:22:23 AM
Would agree with that. Guttersnipes one and all.
Who are guttersnipes? All muslims? Or their religious leaders?
Quote from: nifan on September 28, 2009, 12:00:36 PM
Quote from: man in black on September 28, 2009, 11:22:23 AM
Would agree with that. Guttersnipes one and all.
Who are guttersnipes? All muslims? Or their religious leaders?
All of them
Sure they are all the same ::)
What is it about them all that grates you so much
Quote from: nifan on September 28, 2009, 01:09:45 PM
Sure they are all the same ::)
What is it about them all that grates you so much
99% is a fair percentage of guttersnipes. No exaragtion, living here you see it everyday. If you wanted to hate the world this is a good place to come.
Quote from: nifan on September 28, 2009, 01:09:45 PM
Sure they are all the same ::)
What is it about them all that grates you so much
Hypocrisy, tight fisted miserable hoors, cowards, women beaters - i lived in a muslim state for a couple of years and i know all about them. Plus they look down their noses at everyone that thinks allah was a ballix.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on September 28, 2009, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: nifan on September 28, 2009, 01:09:45 PM
Sure they are all the same ::)
What is it about them all that grates you so much
99% is a fair percentage of guttersnipes. No exaragtion, living here you see it everyday. If you wanted to hate the world this is a good place to come.
Where are you Sligonian ?
I assume you have no, and would refuse to have, muslim friends then.
Muslims who I know are certainly not the stereotype you portray.
Quote from: man in black on September 28, 2009, 01:16:24 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on September 28, 2009, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: nifan on September 28, 2009, 01:09:45 PM
Sure they are all the same ::)
What is it about them all that grates you so much
99% is a fair percentage of guttersnipes. No exaragtion, living here you see it everyday. If you wanted to hate the world this is a good place to come.
Where are you Sligonian ?
Currently in Qatar. I'll reply in more detail outside of work.
Why does the bible need to be interpreted? Oh yeah cos if it was taken at face value you'd laugh your arse off. For interpretation see trying to find some way of making you swallow it. Well that's why my leader says anyway. :D
Quote from: nifan on September 28, 2009, 01:23:03 PM
I assume you have no, and would refuse to have, muslim friends then.
Muslims who I know are certainly not the stereotype you portray.
I wouldnt refuse to have Muslim friends. Just any ive ever met have been cretins of the highest order, you can only take folk as you find them.
Quote from: man in black on September 28, 2009, 03:07:51 PM
can only take folk as you find them.
Odd, you called them all guttersnipes on the pervious page. Hardly taking them as you find them.
Quote from: nifan on September 28, 2009, 03:31:38 PM
Quote from: man in black on September 28, 2009, 03:07:51 PM
can only take folk as you find them.
Odd, you called them all guttersnipes on the pervious page. Hardly taking them as you find them.
take them as i have found them then.
I'll give a few examples of how I found them,
There whole way fo life is built around the Quran, which has been interpreted to suit the men as I said earlier. Women wear black and are covered up. Most of the women get out of the country as much as they because they cant express themselves here at all. Some are forced into marriage at the age of 10 by there families, marrying a 20 yrs old + man, some die early because of getting pregnant to early. The families are the main problem The quran was interpretating that men can marry outside of religion but women cant. Men can have a few wives aswell to go along with it. Women walk behind the man etc...
One of my friends friend is babysitterfor the royal family, they get out of this country as much as possible and dont wear the same clothes, another thing a friend sister works on a luxury cruiser in carribean, the sheik of saudi came along for a 3 month cruise and had load of whores for himself aswell. In dubai whores are lining the streets and cops ignore it. One of my mates fell asleep in a taxi and woke up in a cell. Yes if you fall asleep in taxi you get arrested. Its illegal to drink but all westerners do obviously.
In Qatar the ignornce of the place comes out in the driving, they dont use indicators, drive on wrong side and generally drive as they please, no rules for locals, one of my friends got crashed into by a local, he had to go court where no english was spoken, an interpertator was there but just translated my friends not guilty. His laywer was corrupt and he got huge fine,
and was told he cant leave the country till its paid, they all take a cut.
In work the companies, you cant leave the country unless you get exit visa from them which messed me up for sligo this summer, also if I wanted to leave company I just cant leave as they can have me banned from Qatar for 2 yrs but it doesnt matter if i get job outside thank feck.
The main labour force are indians, there treated like slaves, the middle east countries are just modern dictatorships with slavery, you wont see this in to many papers as your not allowed to highlight this inside. Thousands of indians die at work and there families arent notified... in there is a great arrticle in the indo the darkside of dubai from a few month ago.
Lastly if you go out with your girlfriend expect her to be pestered by locals who shouldnt be drinking anyway and they dont care about you standing beside her. Constant harrasment. During ramadan youcant drink or eat in public, try driving at 50 degrees in middle of day not drinking water. They report you if they catch you, also goes for women wearing t shirt and shorts.
This place has tested my belief in Bible and God aswell, I see how blinded these people are and lot of it just makes no sense and you think I am that blind to the Bible. Why doesnt God appear now, the world is more fecked than ever, why 2000 yrs ago? In my whole life ive experienced no evidence of God. Who created the creator? Does the Bible answer these questions . The Bible creates such power for the Church its scary, peope are more open minded now and can see past that. Im just unsure of alot of things and my faith is currently been tested. No disrespect to Aerlik or anyone who believe wholeheartdly.
Quote from: man in black on September 28, 2009, 03:07:51 PM
Quote from: nifan on September 28, 2009, 01:23:03 PM
I assume you have no, and would refuse to have, muslim friends then.
Muslims who I know are certainly not the stereotype you portray.
I wouldnt refuse to have Muslim friends. Just any ive ever met have been cretins of the highest order, you can only take folk as you find them.
Apart from those damn gays, eh big boy?
Good post Sligonian. I know some Muslim countries are having the debate about the role of women in society and the mosque. Granted there is a lot of thinking which rightfully belongs in the Middle Ages but equally so there is very progressive thinking out there and it is not exclusively female either. Yes, in cases this thinking is stifled by some governments but it is there and it is becoming more and more prevalent
Places like Iran have always had that tendency, it's just the message doesn't get out because it may elicit a military response from the government so we in the west think the mad funtamentalism is all that is going on out there
Your point about the Bible is an honest one and I can appreciate it as just that, a heartfelt response. For me, the Bible is a part of my religion, a very important part but not the only thing that's important about it
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on September 28, 2009, 07:17:52 PM
Good post Sligonian. I know some Muslim countries are having the debate about the role of women in society and the mosque. Granted there is a lot of thinking which rightfully belongs in the Middle Ages but equally so there is very progressive thinking out there and it is not exclusively female either. Yes, in cases this thinking is stifled by some governments but it is there and it is becoming more and more prevalent
Places like Iran have always had that tendency, it's just the message doesn't get out because it may elicit a military response from the government so we in the west think the mad funtamentalism is all that is going on out there
Your point about the Bible is an honest one and I can appreciate it as just that, a heartfelt response. For me, the Bible is a part of my religion, a very important part but not the only thing that's important about it
I wish i seen it, during my yr out here the laws have changed to getting more strict to not so strict to getting more strict in terms of the Quran. The only reason theres a debate is because the middle east has a huge amount of divorces because there forced marriages and WOMEN are way more educated than the men who dont even work. Alot of women are afraid of there families and runaway to break free but its a huge price to pay to abandon your family and takes serious strength.
If any of yee come out here just go to cinema, see the way they parent there kids is shocking, there is no discipline for male kids, I was sitting in front of the parents and across the aisle 5 kids were sitting kicking the chairs in frontof them where a few asian nationalities were sitting, they had keep looking over there shoulders, and then staff had to come in a sit on the aisle and then the kids only stopped temporarily, the parents behind me never said one thing to there kids. It irked me alot that. They also dont know the meaning of queues. Just not right. I havent met a ex pat out here who doesnt hate them the whole 99% of them. You see plenty of situations everyday that show there arrogance and ignorance.
Ya the Bible is part of my religion aswell, and I was deeply religious in my teenage yrs, being a alterboy for 4 yrs fueled that. But Ive kinda went on spiritual quest in my 20s wondering and questioning. My main difference with catholicism is one life, you see all my life I couldnt understand why people are born poor/rich, or into a nightmare family or nice family, kids with learning disability (mentally handicapped) what chance do those innocent kids get... from those questions I started to believe in reincarnation which goes against the Bible and more into Buddhasim. So thats pretty much what going on a deep level with me. I just cant believe everything im told or meant to believe. None of us cant prove we are right at the end of day either so each to there own. Id be interested to get Aerliks take after the course. I do believe parts of the Bible aswell i should add, i did wum on another thread.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on September 28, 2009, 04:57:08 PM
I'll give a few examples of how I found them,
There whole way fo life is built around the Quran, which has been interpreted to suit the men as I said earlier. Women wear black and are covered up. Most of the women get out of the country as much as they because they cant express themselves here at all. Some are forced into marriage at the age of 10 by there families, marrying a 20 yrs old + man, some die early because of getting pregnant to early. The families are the main problem The quran was interpretating that men can marry outside of religion but women cant. Men can have a few wives aswell to go along with it. Women walk behind the man etc...
One of my friends friend is babysitterfor the royal family, they get out of this country as much as possible and dont wear the same clothes, another thing a friend sister works on a luxury cruiser in carribean, the sheik of saudi came along for a 3 month cruise and had load of whores for himself aswell. In dubai whores are lining the streets and cops ignore it. One of my mates fell asleep in a taxi and woke up in a cell. Yes if you fall asleep in taxi you get arrested. Its illegal to drink but all westerners do obviously.
In Qatar the ignornce of the place comes out in the driving, they dont use indicators, drive on wrong side and generally drive as they please, no rules for locals, one of my friends got crashed into by a local, he had to go court where no english was spoken, an interpertator was there but just translated my friends not guilty. His laywer was corrupt and he got huge fine,
and was told he cant leave the country till its paid, they all take a cut.
In work the companies, you cant leave the country unless you get exit visa from them which messed me up for sligo this summer, also if I wanted to leave company I just cant leave as they can have me banned from Qatar for 2 yrs but it doesnt matter if i get job outside thank feck.
The main labour force are indians, there treated like slaves, the middle east countries are just modern dictatorships with slavery, you wont see this in to many papers as your not allowed to highlight this inside. Thousands of indians die at work and there families arent notified... in there is a great arrticle in the indo the darkside of dubai from a few month ago.
Lastly if you go out with your girlfriend expect her to be pestered by locals who shouldnt be drinking anyway and they dont care about you standing beside her. Constant harrasment. During ramadan youcant drink or eat in public, try driving at 50 degrees in middle of day not drinking water. They report you if they catch you, also goes for women wearing t shirt and shorts.
This place has tested my belief in Bible and God aswell, I see how blinded these people are and lot of it just makes no sense and you think I am that blind to the Bible. Why doesnt God appear now, the world is more fecked than ever, why 2000 yrs ago? In my whole life ive experienced no evidence of God. Who created the creator? Does the Bible answer these questions . The Bible creates such power for the Church its scary, peope are more open minded now and can see past that. Im just unsure of alot of things and my faith is currently been tested. No disrespect to Aerlik or anyone who believe wholeheartdly.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on September 28, 2009, 08:09:13 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on September 28, 2009, 04:57:08 PM
I'll give a few examples of how I found them,
There whole way fo life is built around the Quran, which has been interpreted to suit the men as I said earlier. Women wear black and are covered up. Most of the women get out of the country as much as they because they cant express themselves here at all. Some are forced into marriage at the age of 10 by there families, marrying a 20 yrs old + man, some die early because of getting pregnant to early. The families are the main problem The quran was interpretating that men can marry outside of religion but women cant. Men can have a few wives aswell to go along with it. Women walk behind the man etc...
One of my friends friend is babysitterfor the royal family, they get out of this country as much as possible and dont wear the same clothes, another thing a friend sister works on a luxury cruiser in carribean, the sheik of saudi came along for a 3 month cruise and had load of whores for himself aswell. In dubai whores are lining the streets and cops ignore it. One of my mates fell asleep in a taxi and woke up in a cell. Yes if you fall asleep in taxi you get arrested. Its illegal to drink but all westerners do obviously.
In Qatar the ignornce of the place comes out in the driving, they dont use indicators, drive on wrong side and generally drive as they please, no rules for locals, one of my friends got crashed into by a local, he had to go court where no english was spoken, an interpertator was there but just translated my friends not guilty. His laywer was corrupt and he got huge fine,
and was told he cant leave the country till its paid, they all take a cut.
In work the companies, you cant leave the country unless you get exit visa from them which messed me up for sligo this summer, also if I wanted to leave company I just cant leave as they can have me banned from Qatar for 2 yrs but it doesnt matter if i get job outside thank feck.
The main labour force are indians, there treated like slaves, the middle east countries are just modern dictatorships with slavery, you wont see this in to many papers as your not allowed to highlight this inside. Thousands of indians die at work and there families arent notified... in there is a great arrticle in the indo the darkside of dubai from a few month ago.
Lastly if you go out with your girlfriend expect her to be pestered by locals who shouldnt be drinking anyway and they dont care about you standing beside her. Constant harrasment. During ramadan youcant drink or eat in public, try driving at 50 degrees in middle of day not drinking water. They report you if they catch you, also goes for women wearing t shirt and shorts.
This place has tested my belief in Bible and God aswell, I see how blinded these people are and lot of it just makes no sense and you think I am that blind to the Bible. Why doesnt God appear now, the world is more fecked than ever, why 2000 yrs ago? In my whole life ive experienced no evidence of God. Who created the creator? Does the Bible answer these questions . The Bible creates such power for the Church its scary, peope are more open minded now and can see past that. Im just unsure of alot of things and my faith is currently been tested. No disrespect to Aerlik or anyone who believe wholeheartdly.
Did my post make you speechless. :D
It easy to say a us and them when speaking about the middle east as if the west had nothing to do with it. Its not that simple. I would agree that the status of women in these countries is a terrible reflection on them but part of the problem is that fundamentalism is flourishing mainly due to the constant interference from western superpowers. The US kept the dictatorship of the Shah in power in Iran, a guy that lived the life of the king while his people lived in the gutter. Fundamentalists overthrew him and the Iran of today was born. The yanks were so afraid of Iran that they started to cosy up to a certain psycho dictator in Iraq as he was a sworn enemy of Iran. Iraq invaded and Iran beat the hell out of them so the west gave Sadam all the money, weapons, and gas he needed to push the Iranians back. He then went and used the gas on the Kurds who had Iranian leanings with the full knowledge of the christian west. During this period the yanks even shot down a passenger plane leaving Iran. So 2 monsters were created. I have not even mentioned the creation of Israel, the christain/muslim wars in lebannon. The vile puppet western dictatorships in Saudi and Egypt. So when you look at what is going on in these countries, remember the christian wests finger prints are all over them too.
I went to an American College for a year in 1997. Didn't do my research very well and ended up in a Presbyterian part of the Bible belt, and part of the deal required me to study religion and go to Church.
We were meant to study the Old Testament in semester one, but the minister took 10 weeks to get through the first half of Genesis. One whole class was spent analysing one sentence of 8 words. So we ended up taking a final exam on chapter one. I actually came top of my class in that one, even though the other 20 people were "committed Christians".
The same Minister got his revenge on me though when he gave me 9/10 in the 10 commandments test. When I let him know that my 10 Commandments had been around a lot longer than his version, he hrew me out of class.
Another Minister actually did everyone a favour and banned me from his class for a fortnight. He opened up a class by trying to get everyone thinking outside the box. His question was "name the holiest person who ever lived?". I let them blow on for a long time, before citing Mother Teresa. Quite a few had never heard of her. But anyway, they came to an agreement that it was local evengelist Billy Graham. I couldn't let that one lie, but the Minister turned it personal and told me that he could prove that Billy Graham hadn't broken the 10 commandments. He pulled out the example that when Mr Graham was on the road, he always slept in the same room as his bodyguards, so that nobody could levy the adultery accusation at him. Well me, I remember being taught that a sin in mind is a sin in body, and that he obviously thought about to take on those precautions. That really didn't go down well.
In our business studies class, our lecturer started every lesson with a prayer that inevitably thanked the Lord for the wonderful weather we enjoyed. Until one day it rained, so instead he thanked the Lord for the much needed irrigation.
I ended up playing soccer for my school, and we would pray before, after and at half-time in matches. As you might imagine we weren't very tactically aware. The captain of the team took exception when I pointed this out before our 3rd or 4th match. Thankfully though he forgave me in post-match prayers
Anyway, what is the point in this ramble? Well, the thing I learned most from my adventure was that so convinced and converted was my average schoolmate, that a man of influence could easily mobilise them as an army. And one day someone will. In my opinion, a holy war is an unfortunate and unnecessary inevitability.
Ulysses, now there is a work of fiction worth studying
Quote from: man in black on September 28, 2009, 01:15:43 PM
Quote from: nifan on September 28, 2009, 01:09:45 PM
Sure they are all the same ::)
What is it about them all that grates you so much
Hypocrisy, tight fisted miserable hoors, cowards, women beaters - i lived in a muslim state for a couple of years and i know all about them. Plus they look down their noses at everyone that thinks allah was a ballix.
Well in fairness he was a bit of a ballix.
I know a Muslim man and he is one of the most decent human beings I have ever come across. He has never beaten his wife, is generous to a fault and is the single most humble man I have ever met.
I would have little time for the Muslim faith but to make a sweeping statement and say that all Muslims are arrogant pricks etc is way, way wide of the mark.
:D :D
Very good Wobbler. I had a similar experience with the Christian group at uni. They said they were Christians and Catholics...well...weren't Christian. So I asked them about pre-Reformation. Gulp.
I got an email back from the organiser who has assured me it is not an evangelical session. We'll wait and see.
Sligonian, he is Jordanian born of Palestinian ancestry. His grandparents were expelled in 1948. He is no fan of the Jordanian royal family I can tell you. You cannot condemn all muslims because of your experiences. That would be like condemning Irish Catholics for the sins of Ecuadorian Catholics. you cannot compare like for like.
Quote from: Aerlik on September 29, 2009, 03:21:01 AM
:D :D
Very good Wobbler. I had a similar experience with the Christian group at uni. They said they were Christians and Catholics...well...weren't Christian. So I asked them about pre-Reformation. Gulp.
I got an email back from the organiser who has assured me it is not an evangelical session. We'll wait and see.
Sligonian, he is Jordanian born of Palestinian ancestry. His grandparents were expelled in 1948. He is no fan of the Jordanian royal family I can tell you. You cannot condemn all muslims because of your experiences. That would be like condemning Irish Catholics for the sins of Ecuadorian Catholics. you cannot compare like for like.
In my defence i did say 99%, im sure theres 1% that are ok, and I would say that percentage is not far off living here. Maybe muslims living in the western world are different and I think ive been clear it is Qatar and UAE im on about.
First night last night. Usual suspects, holier-than-thou's and holy Joes and Josephines. We didn't do anything earth-shattering but I did learn why the Catholic Bible is different from the Protestant one.
Trivia. Catholic Bibles have 73 books. Protestant ones have 66.
There's going to be some craic discussing the origins of humanity. One wee wummin proclaimed that it is the truth since the beginning of mankind on earth. I foresee a debate.
Cupla fit young'ins there too. Hmm, wonder if they've been corrupted yet?
Quote from: Aerlik on October 08, 2009, 11:13:31 AM
First night last night. Usual suspects, holier-than-thou's and holy Joes and Josephines. We didn't do anything earth-shattering but I did learn why the Catholic Bible is different from the Protestant one.
Trivia. Catholic Bibles have 73 books. Protestant ones have 66.
There's going to be some craic discussing the origins of humanity. One wee wummin proclaimed that it is the truth since the beginning of mankind on earth. I foresee a debate.
Why did the other 7 get the chop then? I sometimes wonder how they decided whether someone was a prophet or just had too many magic mushrooms.
Also there where multiple gospels, not just the 4 we generally here about. Gospel of Thomas, James, Peter, Judas ..
Good questions...actually (within reason) if anyone else has questions I don't mind playing devil's advocate.
Re. the Protestant Bible, Maiden1, I'll get back to you as I don't have the document to hand. Something to do with Jewish scriptures, I think.
Quote from: Aerlik on October 08, 2009, 11:13:31 AM
First night last night. Usual suspects, holier-than-thou's and holy Joes and Josephines. We didn't do anything earth-shattering but I did learn why the Catholic Bible is different from the Protestant one.
Trivia. Catholic Bibles have 73 books. Protestant ones have 66.
There's going to be some craic discussing the origins of humanity. One wee wummin proclaimed that it is the truth since the beginning of mankind on earth. I foresee a debate.
Cupla fit young'ins there too. Hmm, wonder if they've been corrupted yet?
Is it not Adam and Eve and a spare rib in each?
QuoteWhy did the other 7 get the chop then?
I think that they got the chop as they where historically inaccurate - the stories conflict with real, recorded events.
Anybody interested in studying this in a bit more detail would enjoy this audio lecture by the teaching company (TTC)
TTC History of the Bible- The Making of the New Testament Canon
Seach the torrent sites for it.
Good start where the lecturer asks (american audience)
How many people here believe in the existence of God?.....Vast majority of hands go up
How many people here believe that Jesus was the Son of God?......Vast majority of hands go up
How many people here believe that the Bilble is the word of God?.....Vast majority of hands go up
How many people here have read the Dan Brown novel The Da Vinci Code?....Majority of hands go up
How many people here have actually too the time to read the Bible?......very very few hands go up
Then he asks the rhetorical question..if so many believe in God and believe that the Bible is the word of God, how come so few people actually take the time to read it?
A load of leeks as HS would say
Quote from: nifan on October 08, 2009, 12:19:28 PM
QuoteWhy did the other 7 get the chop then?
I think that they got the chop as they where historically inaccurate - the stories conflict with real, recorded events.
I think they got the chop because they contradict protestant teaching on various subjects such as purgatory and veneration of the saints. But that's a whole different topic.
I think a bible study class is good if the facilitator knows what they are at and you are going for the right reasons. If drawing closer to God is taking a back seat to rooting over the women in attendance then maybe the class isn't for you......
Quote from: The Iceman on October 08, 2009, 02:13:31 PM
I think they got the chop because they contradict protestant teaching on various subjects such as purgatory and veneration of the saints. But that's a whole different topic.
Well I believe Judith was chopped for the reason i stated anyway - Nebuchadnezzar didnt manage to conquer Judea in the book, when he actually did in reality.
not sure about the other books - i had assumed the reasons might be similar, maybe not.
Quote
I think a bible study class is good if the facilitator knows what they are at and you are going for the right reasons. If drawing closer to God is taking a back seat to rooting over the women in attendance then maybe the class isn't for you......
There was a girl in our class at uni who was a christian who apparently was a bit of a goer if she had a few drinks in her so maybe Aerlik is on to something.
Quote
I think that they got the chop as they where historically inaccurate - the stories conflict with real, recorded events.
If they are going to start cutting out bits because they don't sound real then Moses parting the red sea or talking to the burning bush sounds a bit far fetched. I'm not sure about Adam giving Eve one of his ribs either. There might not be much left if they keep going like that.
Quote from: Maiden1 on October 08, 2009, 03:14:35 PM
There was a girl in our class at uni who was a christian who apparently was a bit of a goer if she had a few drinks in her so maybe Aerlik is on to something.
Those christians are all the same ;)
Quote from: Maiden1 on October 08, 2009, 03:14:35 PM
If they are going to start cutting out bits because they don't sound real then Moses parting the red sea or talking to the burning bush sounds a bit far fetched. I'm not sure about Adam giving Eve one of his ribs either. There might not be much left if they keep going like that.
:D
I was of course reffering to historical events that where recorded differently, rather than tales of miracles, which dont have the same sources to back them up ;)
Quote from: The Iceman on October 08, 2009, 02:13:31 PM
I think a bible study class is good if the facilitator knows what they are at and you are going for the right reasons. If drawing closer to God is taking a back seat to rooting over the women in attendance then maybe the class isn't for you......
::) FFS Iceman, chill out. Bwaaahaahaha :D Iceman...chill out. Get it? Any how.
According to the text what Christians call the Old Testament was originally the Hebrew canon of scripture. Today the Jewish canon contains 39 books of 3 different types:
(Torah) also called the Pentateuch or the books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deutoronomy
Joshua, Judges, 1st and 2nd Samuel, 1st and 2nd Kings, Isiaih, jeremiah, Ezekial, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, zechariah, Malachi
Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lametations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, 1st and 2nd Chronicles.
The reason for the differences is:
The earliest Christians spoke Greek and used a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures called the Septuagint. This included the thirty-nine books named above plus seven books that Jews today consider sacred but do not include in their canon: Tobit, Judith, 1 and2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus (aka Sirach), Baruch, and some additional passages in Daniel and Esther. Catholic Bibles follow the early Christians and include all forty-six books in their Old Testament. At the time of the Reformation, the Protestat Reformers chose to follow the shorter Hebrew canon. All Christians, whether Catholic or Protestant, include the same 27 books in the New Testament.
Quote from: Aerlik on October 08, 2009, 04:03:02 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 08, 2009, 02:13:31 PM
I think a bible study class is good if the facilitator knows what they are at and you are going for the right reasons. If drawing closer to God is taking a back seat to rooting over the women in attendance then maybe the class isn't for you......
::) FFS Iceman, chill out. Bwaaahaahaha :D Iceman...chill out. Get it? Any how.
I am completely chill, dude
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on September 28, 2009, 04:57:08 PM
I'll give a few examples of how I found them,
There whole way fo life is built around the Quran, which has been interpreted to suit the men as I said earlier. Women wear black and are covered up. Most of the women get out of the country as much as they because they cant express themselves here at all. Some are forced into marriage at the age of 10 by there families, marrying a 20 yrs old + man, some die early because of getting pregnant to early. The families are the main problem The quran was interpretating that men can marry outside of religion but women cant. Men can have a few wives aswell to go along with it. Women walk behind the man etc...
One of my friends friend is babysitterfor the royal family, they get out of this country as much as possible and dont wear the same clothes, another thing a friend sister works on a luxury cruiser in carribean, the sheik of saudi came along for a 3 month cruise and had load of whores for himself aswell. In dubai whores are lining the streets and cops ignore it. One of my mates fell asleep in a taxi and woke up in a cell. Yes if you fall asleep in taxi you get arrested. Its illegal to drink but all westerners do obviously.
In Qatar the ignornce of the place comes out in the driving, they dont use indicators, drive on wrong side and generally drive as they please, no rules for locals, one of my friends got crashed into by a local, he had to go court where no english was spoken, an interpertator was there but just translated my friends not guilty. His laywer was corrupt and he got huge fine,
and was told he cant leave the country till its paid, they all take a cut.
In work the companies, you cant leave the country unless you get exit visa from them which messed me up for sligo this summer, also if I wanted to leave company I just cant leave as they can have me banned from Qatar for 2 yrs but it doesnt matter if i get job outside thank feck.
The main labour force are indians, there treated like slaves, the middle east countries are just modern dictatorships with slavery, you wont see this in to many papers as your not allowed to highlight this inside. Thousands of indians die at work and there families arent notified... in there is a great arrticle in the indo the darkside of dubai from a few month ago.
Lastly if you go out with your girlfriend expect her to be pestered by locals who shouldnt be drinking anyway and they dont care about you standing beside her. Constant harrasment. During ramadan youcant drink or eat in public, try driving at 50 degrees in middle of day not drinking water. They report you if they catch you, also goes for women wearing t shirt and shorts.
This place has tested my belief in Bible and God aswell, I see how blinded these people are and lot of it just makes no sense and you think I am that blind to the Bible. Why doesnt God appear now, the world is more fecked than ever, why 2000 yrs ago? In my whole life ive experienced no evidence of God. Who created the creator? Does the Bible answer these questions . The Bible creates such power for the Church its scary, peope are more open minded now and can see past that. Im just unsure of alot of things and my faith is currently been tested. No disrespect to Aerlik or anyone who believe wholeheartdly.
Sligonian the Bible tells us that Jesus will come back when we have hit rock bottom, just before we destroy ourselves completely, there is a lot of room yet for us to ruin this planet and for your experiences in a Muslim country to define your faith is ridiculous.
I believe in God and no man is ever going to shake that faith, nor no place or culture will ever shake that faith.
Muslim leaders have for too much power, this was the same in Christian based Churches however I dont think they are as powerful as they once were.
I walk into Church conflicted every week, I am repulsed by the fact that the Churches leaders, up to and including the Pope himself let these terrible things happen to those they were supposed to nuture spiritually and yet I realise that men did these terrible things and men covered up for them or shipped them off to different parts of the globe to avoid embarassment and all they did was repeat offend.
I go, say my prayers and worship God and that is that.
When we hit rock bottom?, where is he when a person hits rock bottom the so called dark night of the soul? If what you is say is true, and you know it may not be, why would Jesus come back and judge us when we have completely messed up, Feck all will get into Heaven? Will they not?
Well Stew without going into specifics, it is the present to me, this place definitly challenges my beliefs in a Kind loving God but ,my faith is evolving through my life experience and I would say my experiences here are relevant not ridiculous. When things are great in life its easy to believe in a loving God, when things outside of your control shit on you it definitly tests you and your faith.
Why are we tested so harshly and fiercely by something that loves us? Like in the Bible God made his Son suffer to save humanity. Hardly an act of love towards his Son. Did Jesus not ask God to not go through with it? I always wondered whats the purpose of suffering? Is it to force us to change or to force others to change in our presence and why someone like Jesus have to go through that for us and we are no angels doesnt make an sense? Is it necessary and why the good guy and not the bad ones? Does it not turn you against God if are good?
Would you send your Son to be crucified for others who are messed up. Would your Son be entitled to think you dont love him?
Your second sentence troubles me Stew, no man, place or culture will shake your Faith fair enough. What about your health, what about severe physical pain everyday for the rest of your life? Would that shake that faith? There are millions more scenarios of suffering that you know something, if that persons says to me I gave up on God a long time ago, I would fair enough you have every right to be angry at God.
Sligonian, Muslims are no different from any other faith....there are good, bad and indifferent in all religions.
At the end of the day people take comfort from their beliefs, no matter whether Christian, Muslim, Jew etc etc.
For every screwball Imam there is a similar Rabbi, Evangalist and so on.....I find it stange that they all claim to believe in God/Allah yet have so much hate.
As for the treatment of women in Muslim countries, for every horror story there are plenty of happy/contented women.
The old Mutawa in Saudi Arabia are gradually but firmly being pushed aside because the King realises that the youth want and are getting change.
I admire anyone who has faith, and the call to prayer 5 times a day would definately be beyond me......i can't even make mass for 1 hour per week.
I like the Middle East, enjoy workinh here and the culture and very warm people.......it's wonderful what a few words of Arabic can do for a westerner.
Lads here is the bible sorted for yous lego style
http://www.thebricktestament.com/
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on October 08, 2009, 09:27:20 PM
When we hit rock bottom?, where is he when a person hits rock bottom the so called dark night of the soul? If what you is say is true, and you know it may not be, why would Jesus come back and judge us when we have completely messed up, Feck all will get into Heaven? Will they not?
I know nothing of the sort, I do know that Jesus said he will return, I also know that a lot of people will have ample opportunity to get right with God before his patience runs thin. If dying was good enough for the son of God it is good enough for the likes of me. We have free will to live as we choose, God does not dictate how we live, he does however give us an outline on how we should live.
Jesus judges everyone that ever lived and there are millions upon millions of people that believe in him and they will be saved, others will join these people during tribulation when people choose sides and Jesus said that he wants us all to join him and that he didnt want to lose even one of us. Sligonian there would be no point of God building many mansions in heaven if they were going to lie idle now would there? :)
Well Stew without going into specifics, it is the present to me, this place definitly challenges my beliefs in a Kind loving God but ,my faith is evolving through my life experience and I would say my experiences here are relevant not ridiculous. When things are great in life its easy to believe in a loving God, when things outside of your control shit on you it definitly tests you and your faith.
This has been a rough year on me financially, I lost a ton on my retirement, over $100.000. I have had a kid almost die on me and I had a seizure whilst driving my feckin lawnmower which tipped over on top of me. (1st one in twelve years) I also knew that after 9 years with the same crowd they wanted rid of me and people like me because we earned too much money and so I left there and took a big, big pay cut, I would say that this constitutes being shit on yet I never questioned my faith in God.
Why are we tested so harshly and fiercely by something that loves us? Like in the Bible God made his Son suffer to save humanity. Hardly an act of love towards his Son. Did Jesus not ask God to not go through with it? I always wondered whats the purpose of suffering? Is it to force us to change or to force others to change in our presence and why someone like Jesus have to go through that for us and we are no angels doesnt make an sense? Is it necessary and why the good guy and not the bad ones? Does it not turn you against God if are good?
'For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son', Jesus paid for our sins so that we could be right with God again. Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, God put his childrens needs before his sone needs, we needed him far more than Jesus did, Jesus is God, he died for us because he loves us, every one of us.
You focus on the negative a lot, what about the majesty and beauty you see every day sligonian?
I am no angel, I drink to much, swear too much although I have gotten far better at not doing this so much anymore and I am far from perfect, I enjoy looking at lovely wemen, ( yer quaire wan from countdown for example) :-[ No one has to be perfect to be right with God.
Would you send your Son to be crucified for others who are messed up. Would your Son be entitled to think you dont love him?
I would not but I am not God, he did and I thank him for it every time I pray every day.
Your second sentence troubles me Stew, no man, place or culture will shake your Faith fair enough. What about your health, what about severe physical pain everyday for the rest of your life? Would that shake that faith? There are millions more scenarios of suffering that you know something, if that persons says to me I gave up on God a long time ago, I would fair enough you have every right to be angry at God.
Jesus comes back to save us, to give us an opportunity, even at the last hour for man to change his ways and to ask for forgiveness.
Nothing would shake my faith, I nearly died in a car accident 20 years ago, I had to learn to read and write again and I am taking medication every day of my life to stop me from taking seizures. (i have had 126 of them in my time)
I get debilitating headaches from time to time, at other times I feel like I am floating and although I have never been high on anything in my life I feel like I know what that feels like, this is all related to what I went through after that car accident. Faith is not something you can switch on and off, I believe in God, it is unfashionable these days but I believe in God and that will never change.
As for Jesus asking his father to stop what ultimately happened to him, I do not pretend to know the mind of God, I cant think at his level but it was fortold that this would come to pass, Jesus actually sweated blood the night before he was crucified such was his anguish, he was wholly human yet wholly God as well. how can any man understand this fully?
Sligonian, we create our own destiny, In your world right now men rule with an iron fist, women are treated like third class citizens and God forbid that you have a differing opinion than the locals, that could be big trouble. The problem is the issues are all man made, from the paedophiles in the Church to the attitudes in the Midle east, to Afghanistan and Iraq, wars and rumours of wars, all made by the hand of man, God gave us free will, this is not on him, this is on us.
Quote from: Maiden1 on October 08, 2009, 03:14:35 PM
Quote
I think a bible study class is good if the facilitator knows what they are at and you are going for the right reasons. If drawing closer to God is taking a back seat to rooting over the women in attendance then maybe the class isn't for you......
There was a girl in our class at uni who was a christian who apparently was a bit of a goer if she had a few drinks in her so maybe Aerlik is on to something.
Quote
I think that they got the chop as they where historically inaccurate - the stories conflict with real, recorded events.
If they are going to start cutting out bits because they don't sound real then Moses parting the red sea or talking to the burning bush sounds a bit far fetched. I'm not sure about Adam giving Eve one of his ribs either. There might not be much left if they keep going like that.
Sea of Reeds :P
I've seen the burning bush - in St Catherine's Monastery out in the Sinai...no scorch marks on it either which I think conclusively proves the story... ;)
Quote from: MW on October 08, 2009, 11:15:38 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on October 08, 2009, 03:14:35 PM
Quote
I think a bible study class is good if the facilitator knows what they are at and you are going for the right reasons. If drawing closer to God is taking a back seat to rooting over the women in attendance then maybe the class isn't for you......
There was a girl in our class at uni who was a christian who apparently was a bit of a goer if she had a few drinks in her so maybe Aerlik is on to something.
Quote
I think that they got the chop as they where historically inaccurate - the stories conflict with real, recorded events.
If they are going to start cutting out bits because they don't sound real then Moses parting the red sea or talking to the burning bush sounds a bit far fetched. I'm not sure about Adam giving Eve one of his ribs either. There might not be much left if they keep going like that.
Sea of Reeds :P
I've seen the burning bush - in St Catherine's Monastery out in the Sinai...no scorch marks on it either which I think conclusively proves the story... ;)
Yes, the Red Sea parting is one of the few bible stories that might actually have some basis in historical fact! Some have pointed to a very nice correlation between the Exodus plagues and the eruption and destruction of Santorini (which is also thought to be the possible source of the Atlantis stories). Ash falls with associated darkness, recession of the sea followed by a tidal wave in the Nile Delta (Reed Sea) and several others I can't remember off the top of my head.
Quote from: stew on October 08, 2009, 10:56:14 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on October 08, 2009, 09:27:20 PM
When we hit rock bottom?, where is he when a person hits rock bottom the so called dark night of the soul? If what you is say is true, and you know it may not be, why would Jesus come back and judge us when we have completely messed up, Feck all will get into Heaven? Will they not?
I know nothing of the sort, I do know that Jesus said he will return, I also know that a lot of people will have ample opportunity to get right with God before his patience runs thin. If dying was good enough for the son of God it is good enough for the likes of me. We have free will to live as we choose, God does not dictate how we live, he does however give us an outline on how we should live.
Jesus judges everyone that ever lived and there are millions upon millions of people that believe in him and they will be saved, others will join these people during tribulation when people choose sides and Jesus said that he wants us all to join him and that he didnt want to lose even one of us. Sligonian there would be no point of God building many mansions in heaven if they were going to lie idle now would there? :)
Well Stew without going into specifics, it is the present to me, this place definitly challenges my beliefs in a Kind loving God but ,my faith is evolving through my life experience and I would say my experiences here are relevant not ridiculous. When things are great in life its easy to believe in a loving God, when things outside of your control shit on you it definitly tests you and your faith.
This has been a rough year on me financially, I lost a ton on my retirement, over $100.000. I have had a kid almost die on me and I had a seizure whilst driving my feckin lawnmower which tipped over on top of me. (1st one in twelve years) I also knew that after 9 years with the same crowd they wanted rid of me and people like me because we earned too much money and so I left there and took a big, big pay cut, I would say that this constitutes being shit on yet I never questioned my faith in God.
Why are we tested so harshly and fiercely by something that loves us? Like in the Bible God made his Son suffer to save humanity. Hardly an act of love towards his Son. Did Jesus not ask God to not go through with it? I always wondered whats the purpose of suffering? Is it to force us to change or to force others to change in our presence and why someone like Jesus have to go through that for us and we are no angels doesnt make an sense? Is it necessary and why the good guy and not the bad ones? Does it not turn you against God if are good?
'For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son', Jesus paid for our sins so that we could be right with God again. Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, God put his childrens needs before his sone needs, we needed him far more than Jesus did, Jesus is God, he died for us because he loves us, every one of us.
You focus on the negative a lot, what about the majesty and beauty you see every day sligonian?
I am no angel, I drink to much, swear too much although I have gotten far better at not doing this so much anymore and I am far from perfect, I enjoy looking at lovely wemen, ( yer quaire wan from countdown for example) :-[ No one has to be perfect to be right with God.
Would you send your Son to be crucified for others who are messed up. Would your Son be entitled to think you dont love him?
I would not but I am not God, he did and I thank him for it every time I pray every day.
Your second sentence troubles me Stew, no man, place or culture will shake your Faith fair enough. What about your health, what about severe physical pain everyday for the rest of your life? Would that shake that faith? There are millions more scenarios of suffering that you know something, if that persons says to me I gave up on God a long time ago, I would fair enough you have every right to be angry at God.
Jesus comes back to save us, to give us an opportunity, even at the last hour for man to change his ways and to ask for forgiveness.
Nothing would shake my faith, I nearly died in a car accident 20 years ago, I had to learn to read and write again and I am taking medication every day of my life to stop me from taking seizures. (i have had 126 of them in my time)
I get debilitating headaches from time to time, at other times I feel like I am floating and although I have never been high on anything in my life I feel like I know what that feels like, this is all related to what I went through after that car accident. Faith is not something you can switch on and off, I believe in God, it is unfashionable these days but I believe in God and that will never change.
As for Jesus asking his father to stop what ultimately happened to him, I do not pretend to know the mind of God, I cant think at his level but it was fortold that this would come to pass, Jesus actually sweated blood the night before he was crucified such was his anguish, he was wholly human yet wholly God as well. how can any man understand this fully?
Sligonian, we create our own destiny, In your world right now men rule with an iron fist, women are treated like third class citizens and God forbid that you have a differing opinion than the locals, that could be big trouble. The problem is the issues are all man made, from the paedophiles in the Church to the attitudes in the Midle east, to Afghanistan and Iraq, wars and rumours of wars, all made by the hand of man, God gave us free will, this is not on him, this is on us.
Stew, thanks for the reply respect to your openess, I agree we just cant understand everything on the level of human mind. Im a bit disappointed in myself considering im heading the opposite direction of you. Sent you PM there. Cant be as open as too many know me on here.
Well, week two of my Bible class has come and gone.
Tonight we were looking at the book of Genesis. In the beginning and all that carry on.
I was hoping there might be a flat-earther in the class but it wasn't to be. In fact it was pretty staid all along, except when one person mentioned the concept of redemption for new-borns who were born with original sin. The chat about Limbo was not that profound. Someone mentioned the Pope clarifying recently that babies who die before being baptised will go straight to heaven. Can someone clarify that?
Anyways, the class was drawing to a painful close when up pipes this young blade about the fact she can't quite grasp the concept of biblical characters living to be several hundred years old. Why, she wondered, is it that we only live to about 70 nowadays. Was it God's way of punishing us for our sins that we live much shorter lives? A long silence ensued. I dunno if everyone else was busting to piss themselves laughing, but I was. After what appeared an eternity, I suggested that it was a metaphor for wise, learned and respected individuals in ancient society being depicted as old. Class agreement.
Well, I knew there'd be questions but I didn't expect a comedy show. Roll on next week. Abraham and the lads take centre stage.
Quote from: Aerlik on October 15, 2009, 04:20:50 AM
Well, week two of my Bible class has come and gone.
Tonight we were looking at the book of Genesis. In the beginning and all that carry on.
I was hoping there might be a flat-earther in the class but it wasn't to be. In fact it was pretty staid all along, except when one person mentioned the concept of redemption for new-borns who were born with original sin. The chat about Limbo was not that profound. Someone mentioned the Pope clarifying recently that babies who die before being baptised will go straight to heaven. Can someone clarify that?
Anyways, the class was drawing to a painful close when up pipes this young blade about the fact she can't quite grasp the concept of biblical characters living to be several hundred years old. Why, she wondered, is it that we only live to about 70 nowadays. Was it God's way of punishing us for our sins that we live much shorter lives? A long silence ensued. I dunno if everyone else was busting to piss themselves laughing, but I was. After what appeared an eternity, I suggested that it was a metaphor for wise, learned and respected individuals in ancient society being depicted as old. Class agreement.
Well, I knew there'd be questions but I didn't expect a comedy show. Roll on next week. Abraham and the lads take centre stage.
Limbo? People possibly muffling laughs at the one person who takes Genesis literally?
A catholic bible class, I take it? :)
So they've got rid of limbo? Its hard to think of a more offensive religious idea than the possibility that an unbaptized infant would be denied entry into heaven.