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With all the talk of a pay freeze, or even a pay cut in the civil service. What do you think?
Should civil servants suffer the ills of the economy along with the rest of us, or should they receive their increments etc?

Its not just a pay cut thats needed but a whole scale redundancy package for a lot of the useless feckers employed by the state, in particular the HSE admin staff
for too long FFhave given them everything that they wanted, at a time when it would have been easier to weed out the dead weight, very hard now when theres a recession no chance of jobs for these people and the unions will have the upperhand
IMO the biggest failure of the last 10 years

I am sick to fecking death with people going on about the civil service, yes there are some complete wasters in it, but when you try to get rid of them the union come up with some balls to keep the useless tossers, or management loose their balls and dont  sack the bastards. there are people off on sick when there is f**k all wrong with them, and also a lot of genuinely sick people, but they are all tarred with the same brush.

there are a lot of top class people who work their balls off to try and make a difference, but the with so many targets and crap to meet they keep moving the goal posts.... a manager said, never mind moving the goal posts, the dug up the pitch and moved it too.

Why are they only talking of making the cut for anyone under 100,000 euro a year? Surely it should be across the board down to anyone maybe at the 50 mark or even lower.

Regardless of a recession or not i believe that there should be a pay cut, but the work practices are just rediculous, what type of a job gives you upto 10 days uncertified sick leave, 35 hour weeks, flexi time, option of a year off, a pension and the fact you will never lose your job. Whats makes things worse is that there is a huge amount of the people on 40k + without a degree or any 3rd level qualification, they are there just so long that they keep getting increases. And to get a job you just need to no somebody, i think the lads in Dell have more skil the most of the civil service!

I find it hard to believe that these clowns feel hard done by.  ::)

Youse are all talking balls.

I work my balls off, as do the vast majority of people in my Department.  We're lucky to even get pay rise in line with inflation, we don't get performance related pay, all the shit about sick absences has been knocked on the head.

Quit whinging.  There are some lazy bastrds in the Civil Service, Im not denying that, but where do you work?  Is there no lazy bastrds working there?

Quote from: Tankie on January 15, 2009, 06:07:31 PM
Regardless of a recession or not i believe that there should be a pay cut, but the work practices are just rediculous, what type of a job gives you upto 10 days uncertified sick leave, 35 hour weeks, flexi time, option of a year off, a pension and the fact you will never lose your job. Whats makes things worse is that there is a huge amount of the people on 40k + without a degree or any 3rd level qualification, they are there just so long that they keep getting increases. And to get a job you just need to no somebody, i think the lads in Dell have more skil the most of the civil service!

I find it hard to believe that these clowns feel hard done by.  ::)

Biggest pile of shite Ive read on this board in ages.  Probably on the wind-up but sure. 

Never mind the pay cuts..Its about time we got the back pay that were owed!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7403944.stm

Quote from: The Gs Man on January 15, 2009, 07:46:50 PM
Youse are all talking balls.

I work my balls off, as do the vast majority of people in my Department.  We're lucky to even get pay rise in line with inflation, we don't get performance related pay, all the shit about sick absences has been knocked on the head.

Quit whinging.  There are some lazy bastrds in the Civil Service, Im not denying that, but where do you work?  Is there no lazy bastrds working there?

Quote from: Tankie on January 15, 2009, 06:07:31 PM
Regardless of a recession or not i believe that there should be a pay cut, but the work practices are just rediculous, what type of a job gives you upto 10 days uncertified sick leave, 35 hour weeks, flexi time, option of a year off, a pension and the fact you will never lose your job. Whats makes things worse is that there is a huge amount of the people on 40k + without a degree or any 3rd level qualification, they are there just so long that they keep getting increases. And to get a job you just need to no somebody, i think the lads in Dell have more skil the most of the civil service!

I find it hard to believe that these clowns feel hard done by.  ::)

Biggest pile of shite Ive read on this board in ages.  Probably on the wind-up but sure. 

I agree with ye Gman.  There is some amount of yapping on this board about civil servants.  It's basically a load of pricks jumping on another bandwagon, looking something to complain about (you could always go back to picking on the teachers).  Every workplace has their share of dossers, and I'm sure there's a fair amount of posters on here who don't exactly work flat out, judging by the number of posts they have each day.

QuoteI'm sure there's a fair amount of posters on here who don't exactly work flat, judging by the number of posts the have each day.

Was thinking similar when I seen the thread. 
I dont understand what sort of jobs some people have when they seem to sit on here all day posting. 

Maybe everyone in the country should tell their boss they want a pay cut.  

Quote from: hardstation on January 15, 2009, 08:10:25 PM
I know. How do they get anything done?

Says two lads with a combined total of nearly 17,000 posts!!!  :D

Quote from: Jimmy Joe on January 15, 2009, 08:11:21 PM
Maybe everyone in the country should tell their boss they want a pay cut.  

I'm busier now in my job in a benefits office than i ever was...but sure I'll do more work and offer to take a pay cut if it helps the country out..    ???

Quote from: The Gs Man on January 15, 2009, 08:11:57 PM

Quote from: hardstation on January 15, 2009, 08:10:25 PM
I know. How do they get anything done?

Says two lads with a combined total of nearly 17,000 posts!!!  :D

I dont post during working hours.

Of course there lazy bastards in every company, it's just they don't get away with it for an entire lifetime or receive as many perks along the way as a civil servant. If you slack in the private sector where things like productivity and profitability are important then you will be shown the door or "personal action plan" pretty sharpish.

Any number of economists and private sector big wigs have said it could operate with a workforce about 30% leaner but the unions stiffle any talk of more efficient working practices as things such as productivity and longevity are of no interest to them.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 15, 2009, 08:21:05 PM
Of course there lazy b**tards in every company, it's just they don't get away with it for an entire lifetime or receive as many perks along the way as a civil servant. If you slack in the private sector where things like productivity and profitability are important then you will be shown the door or "personal action plan" pretty sharpish.

Any number of economists and private sector big wigs have said it could operate with a workforce about 30% leaner but the unions stiffle any talk of more efficient working practices as things such as productivity and longevity are of no interest to them.

Get yourself a job in the Civil service then if its so easy work..The perks are there because the wages are useless. We have been under paid for years but there's not much talk out of you about that as my link shows.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7403944.stm

Sure I think I'm underpaid too. Who is crying to Peter Robinson on my behalf?!

You are also missing the point. If the workforce was streamlined then the civil service would be more efficient and everyone working there could get a decent wage and better working conditions so you didn't have to go on the sick all the time. No one is saying the civil service isn't important but it need a radical overhaul.

QuoteWe have been under paid for years

Join the club!

Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 15, 2009, 08:36:40 PM
You are also missing the point. If the workforce was streamlined then *Insert your company here* would be more efficient and everyone working there could get a decent wage and better working conditions so you didn't have to go on the sick all the time.

Sure you could say that for any place of work!!!!

Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 15, 2009, 08:36:40 PM
Sure I think I'm underpaid too. Who is crying to Peter Robinson on my behalf?!

You are also missing the point. If the workforce was streamlined then the civil service would be more efficient and everyone working there could get a decent wage and better working conditions so you didn't have to go on the sick all the time. No one is saying the civil service isn't important but it need a radical overhaul.

If you think your underpaid go see your boss and ask him for a payrise..As Peter Robinson was Minister for Finance and personnel he was effectively our boss, and has admitted we have been under paid so its not just that i think i have been under paid. I have FACT!

The tax payer isn't bank rolling *insert company* to engage in inefficient practices!

Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 15, 2009, 08:47:25 PM
The tax payer isn't bank rolling *insert company* to engage in inefficient practices!

I believe Tony that the company you work for has received several large injections of cash from the Government............

we are all underpaid in the civil service, well the lower grades are, and have targets to meet and teams to run. we are under the same stresses as others ion the private sector, possibly more in some case.

Quote from: The Gs Man on January 15, 2009, 07:46:50 PM
Youse are all talking balls.

I work my balls off, as do the vast majority of people in my Department.  We're lucky to even get pay rise in line with inflation, we don't get performance related pay, all the shit about sick absences has been knocked on the head.

Quit whinging.  There are some lazy bastrds in the Civil Service, Im not denying that, but where do you work?  Is there no lazy bastrds working there?

Quote from: Tankie on January 15, 2009, 06:07:31 PM
Regardless of a recession or not i believe that there should be a pay cut, but the work practices are just rediculous, what type of a job gives you upto 10 days uncertified sick leave, 35 hour weeks, flexi time, option of a year off, a pension and the fact you will never lose your job. Whats makes things worse is that there is a huge amount of the people on 40k + without a degree or any 3rd level qualification, they are there just so long that they keep getting increases. And to get a job you just need to no somebody, i think the lads in Dell have more skil the most of the civil service!

I find it hard to believe that these clowns feel hard done by.  ::)

Biggest pile of shite Ive read on this board in ages.  Probably on the wind-up but sure. 

A pile of shite my arse, are you serious telling me that a civil servant has it as hard of a private sector worker? and its far from a wind up, are you telling me that these owrk practices are not in place?

Isnt it an awful pity there werent the same number of people calling for price cuts over the last 10 years when the IBECunts were engaging in their Rip off Republic practices and FF/Builders/Developers/Estate Agents were forcing up house prices.
If those kind of things hadnt happened people wouldnt have needed high wages and the whole economy could have remained reasonably competitive internationally.
When the ESRI pointed out back around 2003 that we hadn't a real economy any more - only a big building site- Arsehole McCreevy started blathering about "oul left wing pinkos"  to the echo of his horsemates  guffawing loyally.
Meanwhile of course the Bankerwankers were gone completely out of control - 100%+ mortgages,Interest only loans ...etc etc.
So IBEC/Bankers/BuildersFF have fcuked up the Country - let them pay for it ..not the working people who got damn all out of it anyway.

Quote from: Minder on January 15, 2009, 08:50:36 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 15, 2009, 08:47:25 PM
The tax payer isn't bank rolling *insert company* to engage in inefficient practices!

I believe Tony that the company you work for has received several large injections of cash from the Government............

So some one in that company is ineffective and has to go to the government for handouts..

Cut the wages now..Streamline the workforce!!

QuoteMeanwhile of course the Bankerwankers were gone completely out of control - 100%+ mortgages,Interest only loans ...etc etc.
So IBEC/Bankers/BuildersFF have fcuked up the Country - let them pay for it ..not the working people who got damn all out of it anyway.

Sure it's the greedy that are getting most help now.

Quote from: Tankie on January 15, 2009, 06:07:31 PM
Regardless of a recession or not i believe that there should be a pay cut, but the work practices are just rediculous, what type of a job gives you upto 10 days uncertified sick leave, 35 hour weeks, flexi time, option of a year off, a pension and the fact you will never lose your job. Whats makes things worse is that there is a huge amount of the people on 40k + without a degree or any 3rd level qualification, they are there just so long that they keep getting increases. And to get a job you just need to no somebody, i think the lads in Dell have more skil the most of the civil service!

I find it hard to believe that these clowns feel hard done by.  ::)

By the spelling and punctuation displayed in your posts I think you're the clown and a right wing looney to boot

The nordies posting here should jump back down from their high horses, the initial question was not directed towards them at all.  My understanding is that there is a world of difference between conditions, practices and salary from north to south.
Salaries are much, much higher, it's virtually impossible to sack people down here and most ridiculously of all, civil servants here have their pensions linked to the current salary of the person now doing their job!!!  Now, that's nonsense imo, an inflationary increase would suffice.
I've worked in both sectors (never actually been employed by the state though) and yes, there are plenty of useless beings in both, the problem however is that in the private sector management won't allow this to continue indefinitely, whilst in the public sector it may well do.  Another problem I frequently encountered in the public sector was misallocation of resources, this was endemic imo, I encountered many, many good individuals who had feck all to do.
Regarding the salary reduction, I'm totally in favour, it needs to be worked properly though, you can't have people at lower grades ending up being paid more than their superiors (simply because this would not be accepted by workers).  I'd like to see something like 20% cuts at the very top, 15% for the 100Kers, 10% for the 75Ker, 7/8% for the 50+Kers and cuts for those below 50K being such that they remain being paid less than those above them in the pay scales.  
We need pay cuts for the public sector because we need to reduce wages country wide if we are ever to see FDI in the country again, I'm not saying that FDI is the be all and end all, but it does have a part to play.  In short we need to become competitive, this is an important step towards this.

The vast majority of civil servants are as hard working as the rest of us, it is a small minority that have got them a bad name. Don't forget these people pay tax too. If there are to be pay cuts, why not cut the "pay" of those who contribute least to our society, those on the dole. The dole in the 26 counties is a joke. €207 a week for a single person, plus up to €560 a month in rent allowance. Family allowance is also another nice earner for lazy layabouts who do nothing all day but watch Tricia, smoke Lambert and Butler and breed like rats. I know one man who has been on the dole for 19 years. He is claiming for himself, the wife and 5 kids, thats €460 a week. He gets his mortgage paid which is just under €500 a month (yes a man who is on the dole for 19 years has a mortgage) and then they have family allowance of roughly €800 a month. Thats over €3000 a month for doing absolutely nothing, tax free. Should we really cut the pay of those who get out of their bed 5 mornings a week, or should we target those who contribute nothing to society, but take the most?

If the have redundancy this time the should make sure the get rid of the wasters , the last time the left all the good people go who then had to be called back in as consultants
::)

Quote from: Double Cross on January 15, 2009, 10:03:10 PM
The vast majority of civil servants are as hard working as the rest of us, it is a small minority that have got them a bad name. Don't forget these people pay tax too. If there are to be pay cuts, why not cut the "pay" of those who contribute least to our society, those on the dole. The dole in the 26 counties is a joke. €207 a week for a single person, plus up to €560 a month in rent allowance. Family allowance is also another nice earner for lazy layabouts who do nothing all day but watch Tricia, smoke Lambert and Butler and breed like rats. I know one man who has been on the dole for 19 years. He is claiming for himself, the wife and 5 kids, thats €460 a week. He gets his mortgage paid which is just under €500 a month (yes a man who is on the dole for 19 years has a mortgage) and then they have family allowance of roughly €800 a month. Thats over €3000 a month for doing absolutely nothing, tax free. Should we really cut the pay of those who get out of their bed 5 mornings a week, or should we target those who contribute nothing to society, but take the most?

Thats ridiculous money that..

Quote from: Bogball XV on January 15, 2009, 09:56:40 PM
The nordies posting here should jump back down from their high horses, the initial question was not directed towards them at all.  My understanding is that there is a world of difference between conditions, practices and salary from north to south.
Salaries are much, much higher, it's virtually impossible to sack people down here and most ridiculously of all, civil servants here have their pensions linked to the current salary of the person now doing their job!!!  Now, that's nonsense imo, an inflationary increase would suffice.
I've worked in both sectors (never actually been employed by the state though) and yes, there are plenty of useless beings in both, the problem however is that in the private sector management won't allow this to continue indefinitely, whilst in the public sector it may well do.  Another problem I frequently encountered in the public sector was misallocation of resources, this was endemic imo, I encountered many, many good individuals who had feck all to do.
Regarding the salary reduction, I'm totally in favour, it needs to be worked properly though, you can't have people at lower grades ending up being paid more than their superiors (simply because this would not be accepted by workers).  I'd like to see something like 20% cuts at the very top, 15% for the 100Kers, 10% for the 75Ker, 7/8% for the 50+Kers and cuts for those below 50K being such that they remain being paid less than those above them in the pay scales.  
We need pay cuts for the public sector because we need to reduce wages country wide if we are ever to see FDI in the country again, I'm not saying that FDI is the be all and end all, but it does have a part to play.  In short we need to become competitive, this is an important step towards this.

Well said.
Look at all the jobs under threat - KOSTAL in Abbeyfeale & Mallow could be down the tubes tommorow. I'm sure these people would rather take a pay cut and have a job than have nothing at all. The notion of public and civil service sector workers going on strike 'cos of pay cuts will not get much sympathy from normal members of the public let me tell ye!

Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 15, 2009, 10:05:09 PM

Quote from: Double Cross on January 15, 2009, 10:03:10 PM
The vast majority of civil servants are as hard working as the rest of us, it is a small minority that have got them a bad name. Don't forget these people pay tax too. If there are to be pay cuts, why not cut the "pay" of those who contribute least to our society, those on the dole. The dole in the 26 counties is a joke. €207 a week for a single person, plus up to €560 a month in rent allowance. Family allowance is also another nice earner for lazy layabouts who do nothing all day but watch Tricia, smoke Lambert and Butler and breed like rats. I know one man who has been on the dole for 19 years. He is claiming for himself, the wife and 5 kids, thats €460 a week. He gets his mortgage paid which is just under €500 a month (yes a man who is on the dole for 19 years has a mortgage) and then they have family allowance of roughly €800 a month. Thats over €3000 a month for doing absolutely nothing, tax free. Should we really cut the pay of those who get out of their bed 5 mornings a week, or should we target those who contribute nothing to society, but take the most?

Thats ridiculous money that..

My other half pays about €3k a month in tax, nice to know where it goes  ::) Instead of targetting those in employment, the government should target the long term unemployed. How can anyone be unemployed for 19 years?

Quote from: Bogball XV on January 15, 2009, 09:56:40 PM
most ridiculously of all, civil servants here have their pensions linked to the current salary of the person now doing their job!!!  

Word for word from that IBECunt on the radio this morning. ;)
As I understand it public pensioners get the same percentage increases as public sector workers get......that was the way when there were pay increases. ::)
Isnt it great all the same the way the IBECunts having fcuked up the economy now have only one agenda -- to screw the working people and one way to make sure you keep them screwed is to kill off any higher perks/standards that public workers have so they can continue the race to the bottom.
And now we have the BuilderFF Government nationalising the greatest shower of all -AngloIrish Bank

QuoteMy other half pays about €3k a month in tax, nice to know where it goes  Roll Eyes Instead of targetting those in employment, the government should target the long term unemployed.

Aye, I pay 5K  ::)

Quote from: comethekingdom on January 15, 2009, 10:05:55 PM

Quote from: Bogball XV on January 15, 2009, 09:56:40 PM
Look at all the jobs under threat - KOSTAL in Abbeyfeale & Mallow could be down the tubes tommorow.

And cutting public service pay will save those jobs  :o
Get a grip FFS.
All the public sector workers I know-teachers/Gardai/Council/Health people/Civil Service etc spend their money on buying goods/services  from local businesses which keeps the money going round as it's meant to.
Why did so many towns try everything under the Sun to get some public body or govt Dept to decentralise to their place.?
Meanwhile what share of the profits made by the Builders/Developers and Rip off Republic greedy overchargers go back into the local economy? Most of it was spent overseas on all sorts of things...

I would have no problem with targetting the public sector if the Irish banks are nationalised, redefined as 'the public sector' and then massive sacking and pay cuts imposed.

I second the comment about the IBEC Grim Reaper. His name is Turlough O'Connor and despite his clients (banks, Michael O'Leary, Dermot Mannion etc.) taking millions of euros out of the economy for themselves he wants only the workers to pay for it.

BTW rumour of a big North Dublin employer in trouble. 1,000+ jobs.

The work practices are a joke . I once had to get an email sent out from  a government department only to be told the person looks looked after email was out sick and that emails would be answered when she came back. I mean thats the problems with civil service a lot of people still have this one man one job mentality where as in the private sector  if you refuse to do something and you will be shown the door .

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2009, 10:22:36 PM
The work practices are a joke . I once had to get an email sent out from  a government department only to be told the person looks looked after email was out sick and that emails would be answered when she came back. I mean thats the problems with civil service a lot of people still have this one man one job mentality where as in the public sector  if you refuse to do something and you will be shown the door .

You mean PRIVATE sector?

Quote from: comethekingdom on January 15, 2009, 10:28:03 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2009, 10:22:36 PM
The work practices are a joke . I once had to get an email sent out from  a government department only to be told the person looks looked after email was out sick and that emails would be answered when she came back. I mean thats the problems with civil service a lot of people still have this one man one job mentality where as in the public sector  if you refuse to do something and you will be shown the door .

You mean PRIVATE sector?

See that's how tired I am working in the private sector . Can't even think straight  ;)

Quote from: Double Cross on January 15, 2009, 10:03:10 PM
The vast majority of civil servants are as hard working as the rest of us, it is a small minority that have got them a bad name. Don't forget these people pay tax too. If there are to be pay cuts, why not cut the "pay" of those who contribute least to our society, those on the dole. The dole in the 26 counties is a joke. €207 a week for a single person, plus up to €560 a month in rent allowance. Family allowance is also another nice earner for lazy layabouts who do nothing all day but watch Tricia, smoke Lambert and Butler and breed like rats. I know one man who has been on the dole for 19 years. He is claiming for himself, the wife and 5 kids, thats €460 a week. He gets his mortgage paid which is just under €500 a month (yes a man who is on the dole for 19 years has a mortgage) and then they have family allowance of roughly €800 a month. Thats over €3000 a month for doing absolutely nothing, tax free. Should we really cut the pay of those who get out of their bed 5 mornings a week, or should we target those who contribute nothing to society, but take the most?

Can you get Lambert and Butler down South now?

Quote from: Rossfan on January 15, 2009, 10:11:04 PM

Quote from: Bogball XV on January 15, 2009, 09:56:40 PM
most ridiculously of all, civil servants here have their pensions linked to the current salary of the person now doing their job!!!  

Word for word from that IBECunt on the radio this morning. ;)
As I understand it public pensioners get the same percentage increases as public sector workers get......that was the way when there were pay increases. ::)
Isnt it great all the same the way the IBECunts having fcuked up the economy now have only one agenda -- to screw the working people and one way to make sure you keep them screwed is to kill off any higher perks/standards that public workers have so they can continue the race to the bottom.
And now we have the BuilderFF Government nationalising the greatest shower of all -AngloIrish Bank

I didn't hear him, but I knew it was bound to come up, we discussed it on here a year ago, poor Smokin Joe was thinking of moving south!!  AFAIK you are wrong re the pension issue though.
Re IBEC and the construction/ff coalition, my previous posts should show that I'm not the most sympathetic to those muppets.  Imo however any rational person should be able to see that there are huge discrepancies between the public sector and private sector and that they're mostly in favour of the public workers, that's not to say that private sector workers are all worse off, but in the current climate, the vast majority are.
Re anglo nationalisation, it was the only option and again I've been calling for this since the guarantee fiasco was announced.

You are right that reducing public sector wages will possibly cost jobs in the wider economy, but it's money that we don't have and that we'll end up paying excessively for in the long run.  The unions painted the grim picture of deflation the other day, but is deflation really such a bad thing for a small open economy like ours?  I haven't put much thought into this (as you can probably tell), but I don't think so, as I said before, anything that helps us regain competitiveness can't be a bad thing, whilst we don't want the western world in general to go into deflation, for us it might be good??

The point about huge welfare state payments is also well made and again, these must be cut, apart being unsustainable they are huge disincentives to employment, but once again, cutting these will impact on expenditure in the economy.

Looking back we can see that our biggest problems come back to that muppet who was in charge for 10 yrs, his style of negotiation (which was to give everybody what they asked for) has left us with huge public expenditure that is unsustainable in the short term never mind the longer term.  It's sickening really that the real gains made in the early part of his tenure (no thanks to him) were pissed up against the wall in the form of houses that will need to be demolished, jeeps that are already rusting and tv's that aren't even Full HD, hows that for long term thinking?

Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 15, 2009, 09:28:26 PM

Quote from: Tankie on January 15, 2009, 06:07:31 PM
Regardless of a recession or not i believe that there should be a pay cut, but the work practices are just rediculous, what type of a job gives you upto 10 days uncertified sick leave, 35 hour weeks, flexi time, option of a year off, a pension and the fact you will never lose your job. Whats makes things worse is that there is a huge amount of the people on 40k + without a degree or any 3rd level qualification, they are there just so long that they keep getting increases. And to get a job you just need to no somebody, i think the lads in Dell have more skil the most of the civil service!

I find it hard to believe that these clowns feel hard done by.  ::)

By the spelling and punctuation displayed in your posts I think you're the clown and a right wing looney to boot

are you saying that the civil service does not give its workers all these extras?

Quote from: Bogball XV on January 15, 2009, 09:56:40 PM
The nordies posting here should jump back down from their high horses, the initial question was not directed towards them at all.

Correct and right.

Quote from: hardstation on January 15, 2009, 10:13:16 PM
36 grand a year!!! Holy f**k!

I know a lot of people who work 40 hours a week who dont earn that much. Its a very unfair system that allows an unemployed person and his family to earn that much.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 15, 2009, 10:14:31 PM
Aye, I pay 5K  ::)

5K wouldnt keep you in bargain buckets  ::)

Quote from: Double Cross on January 16, 2009, 12:07:30 AM

Quote from: hardstation on January 15, 2009, 10:13:16 PM
36 grand a year!!! Holy f**k!

I know a lot of people who work 40 hours a week who dont earn that much. Its a very unfair system that allows an unemployed person and his family to earn that much.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 15, 2009, 10:14:31 PM
Aye, I pay 5K  ::)

5K wouldnt keep you in bargain buckets  ::)

I think Hardstation was referring to the fact that your other half pays 36 grand a year in tax.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 16, 2009, 12:20:46 AM

Quote from: Double Cross on January 16, 2009, 12:07:30 AM

Quote from: hardstation on January 15, 2009, 10:13:16 PM
36 grand a year!!! Holy f**k!

I know a lot of people who work 40 hours a week who dont earn that much. Its a very unfair system that allows an unemployed person and his family to earn that much.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 15, 2009, 10:14:31 PM
Aye, I pay 5K  ::)

5K wouldnt keep you in bargain buckets  ::)

I think Hardstation was referring to the fact that your other half pays 36 grand a year in tax.

Be gentle, his teacher wasn't very good.

QuoteLooking back we can see that our biggest problems come back to that muppet who was in charge for 10 yrs, his style of negotiation (which was to give everybody what they asked for) has left us with huge public expenditure that is unsustainable in the short term never mind the longer term.  It's sickening really that the real gains made in the early part of his tenure (no thanks to him) were pissed up against the wall in the form of houses that will need to be demolished, jeeps that are already rusting and tv's that aren't even Full HD, hows that for long term thinking?

Well said Bogball. The point is that within the public service broadly defined, some bolshie unions asked for the outrageous and got it while others were reasonable and didn't always get it. So work practices and wages and so on may be middling in one place but ridiculous in other dept. The likes of the ESB have some of the worst examples. There is a real danger that with the urgency of the situation that the cuts now will fall on the more flexible parts of the public service, which needed cutting least, while those cavemen who shout loudest will be spared, yet again.

QuoteThe unions painted the grim picture of deflation the other day, but is deflation really such a bad thing for a small open economy like ours?  I haven't put much thought into this (as you can probably tell), but I don't think so, as I said before, anything that helps us regain competitiveness can't be a bad thing, whilst we don't want the western world in general to go into deflation, for us it might be good??

In an earlier post, Bogball you welcomed mortgage interest rate cuts. Deflation which is certainly underway, is not so bad if you have money in the bank, prices fall, your wages fall, your savings increase. But if you have a big mortgage your wages fall, but the mortgage still has a real interest rate and you end up in negative equity. The government too is borrowing money, although their ability to repay would fall every year.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 16, 2009, 12:20:46 AM
I think Hardstation was referring to the fact that your other half pays 36 grand a year in tax.

Sadly anyone on a decent wage in the 26 counties falls into the 40% tax bracket, while dole scroungers get 36K a year tax free.

Quote from: armaghniac on January 16, 2009, 12:28:53 AM

QuoteThe unions painted the grim picture of deflation the other day, but is deflation really such a bad thing for a small open economy like ours?  I haven't put much thought into this (as you can probably tell), but I don't think so, as I said before, anything that helps us regain competitiveness can't be a bad thing, whilst we don't want the western world in general to go into deflation, for us it might be good??

In an earlier post, Bogball you welcomed mortgage interest rate cuts. Deflation which is certainly underway, is not so bad if you have money in the bank, prices fall, your wages fall, your savings increase. But if you have a big mortgage your wages fall, but the mortgage still has a real interest rate and you end up in negative equity. The government too is borrowing money, although their ability to repay would fall every year.

I know what you're saying re people with mortgages etc and negative equity, but, no matter what else happens here, I can't see any upside for those people for a long time to come.  No matter what way we look at it, people are going to be trapped in properties that are no longer suitable to their needs, imo that's simply because banks will not lend anywhere near as much to individuals for a long, long time to come.  A lot of credit has been taken from the worldwide system, that credit will probably not be allowed re-enter the system (bar in the form of govt bonds, which are rampant) for the forseeable future, thus it won't be possible for people to avoid negative equity.  Basically, as I see it, we, the irish taxpayers will be paying for this for years to come.  This negative equity is owed to irish banks, when it's not capable of being repayed (and in the absence of some govt scheme to help homeowners) we will have to make this good, this can be in the form of higher charges, lower tax take from the banks, bailouts, whatever, but either way we will have to pay.
Good point re the govt borrowing though, deflation will indeed make it more difficult to pay, all the more reason to get those turbines up and running in the atlantic and start exporting some of that electricity!!  Maybe though, we'll come to see that anglo saxon ideas on leverage, gearing and credit expansion aren't really the way forward?

When public sector works complained that IT/electronics workers were better paid than them during the 'Celtic Tiger' times, they got 'benchmarking' (non-productivity related increases/bonuses).

When private sector workers complain about public sector workers not doing their share in a recession, they get told to f**k off. 

I really, really, really must remember this when the next election comes around.  There's going to be a big 'spin-filter' in my house.  Anyone remember saying that FF were the only ones with the experience to get us through an economic crisis, anyone, anyone???

At least one journalist isn't following the flock.

http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2009/jan/11/diarmuid-doyle-public-sector-workers-have-nothing-/

From time to time, managers of sporting teams like to pin hostile media criticism of their players onto the dressing room wall in advance of an important game. The thinking is that the players will see themselves described in print as nancy boys/unfit to wear the jersey/worse than a team of malaria-stricken grandmothers, and react by ripping their opponents to shreds in the subsequent match. It's an interesting psychological approach and works as often as not. People don't like their commitment or existence questioned and will stand up for themselves when it is.




If Ireland's public-service workers, who have recently been blamed for just about every catastrophe bar the war in Gaza, want to acquire fire in their bellies as their union representatives meet the government over the state of the economy, they might adopt a similar approach. They could start by listening back to some interviews that were done late in the week on RTé and Today FM with the likes of Turlough O'Sullivan, head of the employers' group Ibec, and Ed Walsh, the founding president of the University of Limerick.




Like all employers' representatives, O'Sullivan likes nothing better than a good kick at the public service. He was in flying form on Thursday on The Last Word, advocating public-sector redundancies in the order of 20% and using words like 'bloated' and 'overstaffed' to describe the civil service. To an extent, this was just the usual employer posturing in advance of talks, and public-sector workers will have heard it all before. To get the real dressing-room-wall experience, therefore, they should tune into two interviews done in quick succession by Walsh with Mary Wilson and Matt Cooper on Thursday.




Walsh was invited on by both presenters to talk about the 1,900 redundancies at Dell but wasted no time in getting stuck into the public sector, which he appears to blame for all the country's woes. Walsh is a balanced commentator only to the extent that he appears to have chips on both shoulders. On his right, he carries a visceral hostility to the public service in general; on his left, he displays huge animus towards teachers in particular. Statistics poured out of him on both programmes. Our teachers were paid in excess of 37% more than teachers in Britain. Ambulance drivers were paid more than a junior consultant in Finland. (I have no idea whether that's true or not, although I'm pretty sure that junior doctors in Helsinki don't risk being attacked by thugs every time they're on a job.) Our kids are the 22nd worst at maths out of 28 countries, apparently.




What this had to do with the closure of Dell wasn't entirely clear, but it was all good knockabout fun. As Walsh became ever more apoplectic, I must confess that I laughed out loud. Although he was supposed to be commenting on Dell, he might just as easily have been talking about the public finances, around which a consensus seems to have settled: the public sector is an insatiable beast, populated by overpaid and underperforming workers of whom there are far too many. Get rid of a fifth of them, slash the salaries of the rest and the Celtic Tiger will undergo a miraculous recovery.




Teachers, guards, nurses, doctors, social workers and the rest, who have had no part to play in the collapse of the economy, will be bemused at the hostility shown to them and their colleagues. But they should hold tough and, having given all due consideration to the nonsense spouted by Walsh, Enda Kenny and various rent-a-quote economists, fight their corner.




Public-service workers have plenty of ammunition to work with. Ireland has the third-smallest public expenditure as a percentage of GDP in the OECD. The Irish public sector is by far the smallest of the old EU states. In 1988, public-service workers made up 24.7% of all those in employment. Last year, it was 17.2%. This is significantly less than the level of public employment in Norway (28%), Sweden (27%) and France (23%). The starting salary of a clerical officer is €23,221, rising to €35,727 after 12 years of service. This latter figure is less than the average industrial wage in the private sector. A staff nurse takes six years to get to the average industrial wage.




Public-sector workers have nothing to feel guilty about as they consider how to play their part in fixing a mess not of their making. Because it's the right thing to do, they should promise efficiencies, they should offer more flexibility in work practices and they should certainly, in the national interest, agree to scrap the pay deal and forego any salary increases for the forseeable future. But they should resist any talk of pay cuts, and refuse to be scape­goated for our current travails. It's up to the people who got us into this mess to get us out.

Quoting Diarmuid Doyle is equivalent to having Kevin Myers on your side.   ::)

QuotePublic-service workers have plenty of ammunition to work with. Ireland has the third-smallest public expenditure as a percentage of GDP in the OECD. The Irish public sector is by far the smallest of the old EU states. In 1988, public-service workers made up 24.7% of all those in employment. Last year, it was 17.2%. This is significantly less than the level of public employment in Norway (28%), Sweden (27%) and France (23%). The starting salary of a clerical officer is €23,221, rising to €35,727 after 12 years of service. This latter figure is less than the average industrial wage in the private sector. A staff nurse takes six years to get to the average industrial wage.

The mean income tax rate in Ireland is 26%, the mean income tax rates in Norway, Sweden and France are 37%, 48% and 50% respectively.  They mustn't have taught poor our Diarmuid sums, while he was learning his bluster/propaganda.

Quote from: jaykay on January 16, 2009, 09:41:09 AMTeachers, guards, nurses, doctors, social workers and the rest, who have had no part to play in the collapse of the economy, will be bemused at the hostility shown to them and their colleagues. But they should hold tough and, having given all due consideration to the nonsense spouted by Walsh, Enda Kenny and various rent-a-quote economists, fight their corner.

They had as much a part to play in the collapse of the economy as anyone else and to say otherwise is nonsense, they contributed as much and in many cases more to the property bubble through the multitude of buy-to-lets owned by members of said professions.  When their unions could have been arguing for improving conditions and facilities they were happy to accept the short term gift of a few quid extra.

Quote from: jaykay on January 16, 2009, 09:41:09 AM
Public-service workers have plenty of ammunition to work with. Ireland has the third-smallest public expenditure as a percentage of GDP in the OECD. The Irish public sector is by far the smallest of the old EU states. In 1988, public-service workers made up 24.7% of all those in employment. Last year, it was 17.2%. This is significantly less than the level of public employment in Norway (28%), Sweden (27%) and France (23%). The starting salary of a clerical officer is €23,221, rising to €35,727 after 12 years of service. This latter figure is less than the average industrial wage in the private sector. A staff nurse takes six years to get to the average industrial wage.

Two quick points here, firstly GDP is the wrong measure by which to assess anything in the irish economy, GDP includes the production by multinationals etc which inflates the figure artificially, other countries GDP's are deflated artificially for the same reason.  In Ireland GDP is reckoned to be roughly 25% higher than GNP, but GNP is the more relevant figure.
Secondly, our problem is not with the overall public sector expenditure, we know our services are shite, we know the facilities that our medical and educational professionals have to work in are sub-standard, the problem is that virtually all additional spending over the past 10yrs has been in the form of wages.  The journo here is just spinning, no better than the likes of O'Connor of IBEC and Ed Walsh (why anyone would want to axe 20% of public sector jobs is beyond me, what about the reduction in the multiplier effect, the additional burden on social welfare ???).  Why doesn't the journalist provide a comparison of salaries of the various professions amongst the countries mentioned?

Quote from: Billys Boots on January 16, 2009, 10:01:59 AM
Quoting Diarmuid Doyle is equivalent to having Kevin Myers on your side.   ::)

Didn't know it was Doyle, but had a feeling, at least it makes a change from spouting more vitriol about the gaa.

Quote from: Double Cross on January 15, 2009, 10:03:10 PM
The vast majority of civil servants are as hard working as the rest of us, it is a small minority that have got them a bad name. Don't forget these people pay tax too. If there are to be pay cuts, why not cut the "pay" of those who contribute least to our society, those on the dole. The dole in the 26 counties is a joke. €207 a week for a single person, plus up to €560 a month in rent allowance. Family allowance is also another nice earner for lazy layabouts who do nothing all day but watch Tricia, smoke Lambert and Butler and breed like rats. I know one man who has been on the dole for 19 years. He is claiming for himself, the wife and 5 kids, thats €460 a week. He gets his mortgage paid which is just under €500 a month (yes a man who is on the dole for 19 years has a mortgage) and then they have family allowance of roughly €800 a month. Thats over €3000 a month for doing absolutely nothing, tax free. Should we really cut the pay of those who get out of their bed 5 mornings a week, or should we target those who contribute nothing to society, but take the most?

So should we take it from this that you disapprove of large families and expect us all to be wage slaves like your good wife and yourself? So who's going to pay for your pension?

Quote from: The Gs Man on January 15, 2009, 07:46:50 PM
  We're lucky to even get pay rise in line with inflation, we don't get performance related pay, all the shit about sick absences has been knocked on the head.

Gs Man i think a lot of private sector would think you're lucky that u dont get performance related pay rises!

As for sick absences  ???

Workers in public sector take more sick days

Tuesday December 30 2008

ALMOST all major public sector employers have higher absenteeism rates than the private sector, an Irish Independent investigation has found.

Of 60 public sector bodies surveyed -- including ministerial departments, county and city councils, the HSE, Fas and RTE -- 47 have higher absenteeism rates than the national average for the private sector.

The average private sector firm loses 3.5pc of its working year to certified and uncertified sick leave.

The absenteeism rate refers to the proportion of days lost as a percentage of the total number of days available to work in a year.

The rate in the Department of Social and Family Affairs -- the department responsible for getting people back to work -- is more than double the average in the private sector and is among the worst in the major sectors of the public service.

Apart from the Irish Prison Service, support staff within the HSE are the worst offenders among State employees.

The porters, carers, cleaners and caterers within the health service lost 8pc of their working year to sick leave.

Variations

But there were significant variations within the health service, with medical and dental staff recording an absenteeism rate of 0.93pc, nursing staff recording 5.69pc and "other patient and client care" recording a rate of 7pc.
Earlier this month, the HSE's human resources director Sean McGrath warned that there was no alternative but to change work practices and reduce absenteeism, to help slash hundreds of millions in pay costs.

The Irish Independent investigation came in the wake of news that the Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG) had launched an investigation into civil service absenteeism due to concerns that some civil servants are "swinging the lead" or "taking duvet days".

Of the 34 county and city councils across the country, 28 have absenteeism rates of more than 3.5pc.

A handful of public sector organisations -- including RTE and Failte Ireland -- have significantly lower rates than the private sector. Galway County Council, Clare County Council and Wicklow County Council also have lower absenteeism rates, as has the Courts Service of Ireland.

Cavan County Council, Meath County Council, Westmeath County Council and the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs were all on a par with the private sector average of 3.5pc.

The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources could not provide an annual absenteeism rate as it was only established following the formation of the current Government in June 2007.

Other public sector bodies surveyed, including gardai, teachers, FAS, the Revenue Commissioners and the Central Statistics Office (CSO) -- all had higher rates.

- Fiach Kelly


Double Cross, not everyone is like your example there, I've been on the dole since november and get the bare minimum. Thankfully i'm off it from next week  ;D

"The starting salary of a clerical officer is €23,221, rising to €35,727 after 12 years of service. This latter figure is less than the average industrial wage in the private sector."

Funny how none of ye picked up on this point  ::)

Quote from: jaykay on January 16, 2009, 11:03:55 AM
"The starting salary of a clerical officer is €23,221, rising to €35,727 after 12 years of service. This latter figure is less than the average industrial wage in the private sector."

Funny how none of ye picked up on this point  ::)

It is high alright, but I'd be happy enough for clerical officers to escape with a 1% or 2% cut, single digit anyway.

I don't think there'll be pay cuts at the lower levels. This has been signalled already, as well as ruling out cuts for teachers, nurses and plod. Not many left to cut after that, though.

The problem with the civil service is management or lack of it to be more specific. Most managers are too busy pushing their own agendas to properly manage the people under their supervision. If there was tighter reins there'd be a higher work rate and therefore a lower number of staff needed.

Ok, just to get this straight.  this thread is getting at Civil Servants in the South and not us Nordies? 

(Im on my lunch break by the way, just in case anyone thinks Im wasting tax payers money posting on the Board).

Quote from: jaykay on January 16, 2009, 11:03:55 AM
"The starting salary of a clerical officer is €23,221, rising to €35,727 after 12 years of service. This latter figure is less than the average industrial wage in the private sector."

Funny how none of ye picked up on this point  ::)

What qualification does a €23k clerical worker have? probably just an average leaving cert....

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 16, 2009, 10:52:11 AM


Apart from the Irish Prison Service, support staff within the HSE are the worst offenders among State employees.

The porters, carers, cleaners and caterers within the health service lost 8pc of their working year to sick leave.

Variations

But there were significant variations within the health service, with medical and dental staff recording an absenteeism rate of 0.93pc, nursing staff recording 5.69pc and "other patient and client care" recording a rate of 7pc.

Do they get paid for the days that they are off sick?

Quote from: Tankie on January 16, 2009, 01:03:06 PM

Quote from: jaykay on January 16, 2009, 11:03:55 AM
"The starting salary of a clerical officer is €23,221, rising to €35,727 after 12 years of service. This latter figure is less than the average industrial wage in the private sector."

Funny how none of ye picked up on this point  ::)

What qualification does a €23k clerical worker have? probably just an average leaving cert....

If they are good enough to do the job why does it matter what qualifications they have. Are you saying everyone in the civil service should have a degree now?

Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 16, 2009, 01:19:08 PM

Quote from: Tankie on January 16, 2009, 01:03:06 PM

Quote from: jaykay on January 16, 2009, 11:03:55 AM
"The starting salary of a clerical officer is €23,221, rising to €35,727 after 12 years of service. This latter figure is less than the average industrial wage in the private sector."

Funny how none of ye picked up on this point  ::)

What qualification does a €23k clerical worker have? probably just an average leaving cert....

If they are good enough to do the job why does it matter what qualifications they have. Are you saying everyone in the civil service should have a degree now?

No I am not saying that they should have a degree but 23k for somebody with no degree is quite a good starting wage. And to know that your wage will rise to 35k without you ever up skilling is a nice perk along with the pension and knowing that you will never be unemployed.

Quote from: Donagh on January 16, 2009, 10:05:48 AM
So should we take it from this that you disapprove of large families and expect us all to be wage slaves like your good wife and yourself? So who's going to pay for your pension?

I certainly do not disapprove of large families, but I don't think any family should be a burden on the state. It seems to be socially acceptable in some areas to live off the state, in fact in many areas it is the norm. The government have to accept a large degree of responsibility for the way things have gone. They hand out too much money to those who do least in our society, the long term unemployed. It is unacceptable in this day and age that people can sponge off the state for 5, 10 or even 20 years.
I believe that the government should drastically reduce benefits to those who have abused the system for years, instead of trying to take money from those that are already in employment and paying their own way.
You needn`t worry about my pension, I look after that, not the state.

Quote from: thebandit on January 16, 2009, 01:14:40 PM

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 16, 2009, 10:52:11 AM


Apart from the Irish Prison Service, support staff within the HSE are the worst offenders among State employees.

The porters, carers, cleaners and caterers within the health service lost 8pc of their working year to sick leave.

Variations

But there were significant variations within the health service, with medical and dental staff recording an absenteeism rate of 0.93pc, nursing staff recording 5.69pc and "other patient and client care" recording a rate of 7pc.

Do they get paid for the days that they are off sick?

Most definitely, they'd be out on strike if they weren't
To be honest its the union types that really get to me, useless f**kers that look after all the other useless f**kers, if u were doing ur job properly in most cases you'd have no need for the unions

Quote from: Bogball XV on January 15, 2009, 10:54:41 PM
As I understand it public pensioners get the same percentage increases as public sector workers get......that was the way when there were pay increases. ::)
 AFAIK you are wrong re the pension issue though.

You could be next on my blacklist.  :D
I double checked with sis-in-law who works for a Council in Dublin (the one which builds free stadiums  ;) .. now there's some needless public expenditure)..
Pensioners get the same percentage increases as public sectore workers do in pay deals (or got and did )

Quote from: Rossfan on January 16, 2009, 06:44:54 PM

Quote from: Bogball XV on January 15, 2009, 10:54:41 PM
As I understand it public pensioners get the same percentage increases as public sector workers get......that was the way when there were pay increases. ::)
 AFAIK you are wrong re the pension issue though.

You could be next on my blacklist.  :D
I double checked with sis-in-law who works for a Council in Dublin (the one which builds free stadiums  ;) .. now there's some needless public expenditure)..
Pensioners get the same percentage increases as public sectore workers do in pay deals (or got and did )

You could be kinda right there, if you know what I mean. ;D
Public servants get pensions that are linked to pay deals okay but they don't receive any additional money for any new work practices or changes of working conditions and the likes that come into being after they retire. Retired teachers, for instance, receive whatever percentage increases their active colleagues get out of collective pay bargaining but those who retired before payment for school yard supervision came along won't receive any hike in their pensions to reflect this.

It's the private sector in principle, the banks the developers (politicans), who have got us into this mess, so why do the public sector have to pay for their mistakes? FF and tye economists  fucked up and now everyone looking for a scapegoat the easy target the public service.Everyone knew that the public service was a permanent and pensionable job and everyone had a chance to join it but they would have rather gathered 6-800 euro a week minimum on the construction sites whilst the majorioty of the public serive earned half that.

QuoteIt's the private sector in principle, the banks the developers (politicans), who have got us into this mess, so why do the public sector have to pay for their mistakes?

They shouldn't have to, but someone needs to solve the problem of finding the money to pay for them.

Quote from: muppet on January 15, 2009, 10:18:50 PM
I would have no problem with targetting the public sector if the Irish banks are nationalised, redefined as 'the public sector' and then massive sacking and pay cuts imposed.

I second the comment about the IBEC Grim Reaper. His name is Turlough O'Connor and despite his clients (banks, Michael O'Leary, Dermot Mannion etc.) taking millions of euros out of the economy for themselves he wants only the workers to pay for it.

BTW rumour of a big North Dublin employer in trouble. 1,000+ jobs.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0211/srtechnics.html (http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0211/srtechnics.html)