Channel 4's documentary last night on the Frazier / Ali trilogy was highly enjoyable - the best couple of hours on tv over the whole christmas period.
Frazier cut a sad figure - a bitter man man. no doubt he was very badly treated by ali after doing his best to keep ali on the stage during his exile from boxing.
foreman must have been some puncher to put frazier away like he did and it compunds the view that ali was possibly the best taker of punishment of the era when you look at what foreman inflicted on him in zaire.
larry holmes assertion that ali was way over rated as a boxer was surprising but there's no doubt that he wasn't best liked by the boxing fraternity of his own generation, mostly due to his habitual humiliation of opponents.
it was sad looking at a 63 year old frazier strapping on the mits and looking like an 80 year old. it'sad too that ali isn't able to contribute to such documentaries and the reason for both is the same. they beat each other up to a degree that wouldn't be allowed today.
that said, i have always thought futch was wrong to not allow frazier fight the last round.
That really was a savage fight....they battered each other. Scary stuff.
I also watched Ali's interview with Cathal O'Shannon which on last night as well....some charisma....but you can see why the other heavyweights didnt like him.
RTE showed the full Cathal O'Shannon interview with Ali last night too, while I'd seen bits of it over the years I had never seen the full interview, very entertaining.
theres no doubting ali was the greatest sportsman of all time but underneath it all he was a bitter racist and facist.
I had no idea they hated each other so much! Great documentary. Interesting comparison in that ali had sold his image rights for 50m and Frazier lives in a dungeon above a gym!
Watched this show on Saturday night on E4 or More 4
Ali was superb alright, but I was very suprised at how much of a racist he was, lost a bit of respect for him (not that he would give a flying fcuk)
It is clear that Frazier is still very bitter about the whole episode & seems to be gloating about Ali's demise
Great documentary mind
Absolutely he turned into a racist after getting involved with the muslims. his interviews with with parkinson when looked at chronologically are very character revealing and go some way to exposing his racist beliefs as manufactured.
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on January 06, 2009, 11:07:31 AM
theres no doubting ali was the greatest sportsman of all time but underneath it all he was a bitter racist and facist.
Think you're being a bit unfair there. All that shite he spouted about Frazer was more about hyping the fight and living up to his reputation as the Louisville Lip. Remember, this is the man at the height of his powers and fame who was courageous enough to to stand up and risk it all and prison by refusing to be drafted into the US Army to fight their illegal war in Vietnam ... Remember "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger." His stance was an important part of the opposition that eventually led to the Yanks pulling out of Vietnam in humiliation ... Frazer had a right to be annoyed at the time, but he's full of shit if he thinks he alone is responsible for the state of Ali now (has he never heard of Ernie Young, Ken Norton, Larry Holmes etc?) ... Ali has apologised more than once, it's Frazer who is the bitter one
first off, i'm a fan of ali the boxer and sportsman but i have my reservations about ali the man.
he never apologised to frazier himself, which would have been important.
his avoidance of the draft was not a political stand in my view but rather a knee jerk decision to avoid service. the "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger" approach was cooked up after by the black muslims and was essentially their window into getting a vice grip on ali.
anybody know any good sites to buy boxing dvds from
bought the thiller in manilla as a shristmas and it went down well
i would to get copies of ali fights and a few other heavyweights
any reccomendations welcome
Quote from: Aghdavoyle on January 06, 2009, 11:39:42 AM
first off, i'm a fan of ali the boxer and sportsman but i have my reservations about ali the man.
he never apologised to frazier himself, which would have been important.
his avoidance of the draft was not a political stand in my view but rather a knee jerk decision to avoid service. the "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger" approach was cooked up after by the black muslims and was essentially their window into getting a vice grip on ali.
Yep, he should have apologised to Frazier himself ... but judging by Joe's personality, I doubt very much he would have accepted it. Disagree re the war ... a fighter as brave as Ali wouldn't have been afraid of going to Vietnam had he been a 'patriot' ... him risking it all to defy the draft was a courageous political stand full stop. I think you're crediting the muslims with too much intelligence ... a racist shower of honky haters they may have been, but considering America's treatment of blacks up to that point you could understand - if not agree - with the reasons why they were so pissed off
Fantastic programme - sad and revealing content, gripping and exciting fight sequences, compelling even to the point of discomfort at watching it.
Frazier cuts a desolate figure and sums up the corruption at the heart of pro fighting.
As for racism, this is in the era of black power, white supremacy, KKK and all that - hardly surprising.
As with everything Ali, however, take a large pinch of salt - he was the ultimate spinner, king of hype and hyperbole.
Only saw part of it but was superb. Ali seemed to come off as the worst of the two in the part I saw. The KKK story was unreal.
I bought the complete Tyson set on ebay - obviously it is a home made job as they were never released on box set but it was great quality and have had many a night in with a few beers watching the fights
the same boy was selling McGuigans fights and a few other boxers at the time
Quote from: red hander on January 06, 2009, 11:33:47 AM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on January 06, 2009, 11:07:31 AM
theres no doubting ali was the greatest sportsman of all time but underneath it all he was a bitter racist and facist.
Think you're being a bit unfair there. All that shite he spouted about Frazer was more about hyping the fight and living up to his reputation as the Louisville Lip. Remember, this is the man at the height of his powers and fame who was courageous enough to to stand up and risk it all and prison by refusing to be drafted into the US Army to fight their illegal war in Vietnam ... Remember "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger." His stance was an important part of the opposition that eventually led to the Yanks pulling out of Vietnam in humiliation ... Frazer had a right to be annoyed at the time, but he's full of shit if he thinks he alone is responsible for the state of Ali now (has he never heard of Ernie Young, Ken Norton, Larry Holmes etc?) ... Ali has apologised more than once, it's Frazer who is the bitter one
Who's Ernie Young?!
Jimmy Young? Ernie Terrell? Only link I can make. I'm not sure you could confuse the two fights as one, Young, was close (if not a humiliating loss for Ali) and the other, Terrell was a complete annihilation...
It will be Earnie Shavers who you're referring to, who both Ali and Larry Holmes credited with being the hardest puncher they had ever faced. Strangely Shavers, who's a yank, is a bouncer in Yates in Liverpool, or at least he was last year. He has been featured in the local news in NW England a couple of times.
I thought the documentary was compelling. Frazier is obviously bitter, I think the Uncle Tom comment cut through to his core and Ali really should have apologised to him in person after the fight. That doctor of Ali's was bit of an idiot, though he was right that Ali should never have fought again after that.
Fantastic show last night though watching it today on sky + , for the first time in my life, I couldn t take my mind away from the belief that Ali was not a nice person.
His treatment of Fraiser was shocking and the Uncle Tom jibe was meant to be insulting.
If any sportsman behaved like that today they would be universally disliked.
Frasier came out of the show very well in my view and even his son Marvin was laughing as he talked about the treatment his father was receiving as though he was not particularily perturbed by it!!
Quote from: gallsman on January 06, 2009, 05:32:57 PM
Jimmy Young? Ernie Terrell? Only link I can make. I'm not sure you could confuse the two fights as one, Young, was close (if not a humiliating loss for Ali) and the other, Terrell was a complete annihilation...
Terrell had refused to call Ali by his name.
Terrell could have been knocked out in one but was subjected to a 15 round relentless humiliating battering while Ali shouted out "what's my name, Uncle Tom?".
Class fight and a must for Ali fans.
A very good show. I was very surprised at how Ali behaved. Frazier will hold that grudge till the end
Wasn't there an earlier thread on this documentary?
Watched the Cathal O'Shannon interview the other night and was gobsmacked. I may disagree with some of his opinions but my respect for Ali jumped 10 fold on watching it. Can you imagine Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan giving an interview where they lay down their personal believes like that? No way they only worship the mighty dollar. And that poem about the Attica prison riots - fantastic.
Quote from: gallsman on January 06, 2009, 05:32:57 PM
Quote from: red hander on January 06, 2009, 11:33:47 AM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on January 06, 2009, 11:07:31 AM
theres no doubting ali was the greatest sportsman of all time but underneath it all he was a bitter racist and facist.
Think you're being a bit unfair there. All that shite he spouted about Frazer was more about hyping the fight and living up to his reputation as the Louisville Lip. Remember, this is the man at the height of his powers and fame who was courageous enough to to stand up and risk it all and prison by refusing to be drafted into the US Army to fight their illegal war in Vietnam ... Remember "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger." His stance was an important part of the opposition that eventually led to the Yanks pulling out of Vietnam in humiliation ... Frazer had a right to be annoyed at the time, but he's full of shit if he thinks he alone is responsible for the state of Ali now (has he never heard of Ernie Young, Ken Norton, Larry Holmes etc?) ... Ali has apologised more than once, it's Frazer who is the bitter one
Who's Ernie Young?!
Jimmy Young? Ernie Terrell? Only link I can make. I'm not sure you could confuse the two fights as one, Young, was close (if not a humiliating loss for Ali) and the other, Terrell was a complete annihilation...
Sorry, meant Jimmy Young ... remember him battering Ali but Ali still got result ... think he died last year, though could be wrong
Quote from: red hander on January 07, 2009, 11:00:04 AM
Quote from: gallsman on January 06, 2009, 05:32:57 PM
Quote from: red hander on January 06, 2009, 11:33:47 AM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on January 06, 2009, 11:07:31 AM
theres no doubting ali was the greatest sportsman of all time but underneath it all he was a bitter racist and facist.
Think you're being a bit unfair there. All that shite he spouted about Frazer was more about hyping the fight and living up to his reputation as the Louisville Lip. Remember, this is the man at the height of his powers and fame who was courageous enough to to stand up and risk it all and prison by refusing to be drafted into the US Army to fight their illegal war in Vietnam ... Remember "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger." His stance was an important part of the opposition that eventually led to the Yanks pulling out of Vietnam in humiliation ... Frazer had a right to be annoyed at the time, but he's full of shit if he thinks he alone is responsible for the state of Ali now (has he never heard of Ernie Young, Ken Norton, Larry Holmes etc?) ... Ali has apologised more than once, it's Frazer who is the bitter one
Also beat Norton and Foreman, could have been something!
Who's Ernie Young?!
Jimmy Young? Ernie Terrell? Only link I can make. I'm not sure you could confuse the two fights as one, Young, was close (if not a humiliating loss for Ali) and the other, Terrell was a complete annihilation...
Sorry, meant Jimmy Young ... remember him battering Ali but Ali still got result ... think he died last year, though could be wrong