Might as well start a thread on this one.
THE much-anticipated showdown between Galway's star forward Joe Canning and teak-tough Kilkenny defender Noel Hickey is in severe jeopardy with both players rated as major injury doubts ahead of next Saturday's Leinster SHC semi-final.
Canning suffered a recurrence of a stomach/groin injury during a training camp last week and team management will wait until later this week before making a final decision the Portumna star's availability for the Tullamore clash.
Hickey, meanwhile, sustained a knee injury in training last Saturday and although early reports of medial knee ligament damage have been played down, the All Star full-back looks set to miss out on this occasion.
Midfielders James 'Cha' Fitzpatrick and Derek Lyng are also rated as doubtful starters but defender Michael Kavanagh and forward Richie Power are expected to line out after recovering from hamstring damage.
Power did not train on Saturday but is expected to take part in this evening's session at Nowlan Park.
casualty
Brian Hogan is Kilkenny's long-term injury casualty with a broken collarbone while Galway are without cruciate ligament victims Ciaran O'Donovan and Iarla Tannian.
Last year's goalkeeper James Skehill is also ruled out with a broken finger and Kevin Hayes is suspended for the Tribesmen.
Andy Smith is also a doubtful starter after the shin injury he sustained against Laois turned septic while Alan Kerins is struggling with an ankle injury. On the plus side for Galway, former All Star defender Ollie Canning is fit.
You'd have to think that while Kilkenny can sustain the loss of some of their starters due to the panel depth, the loss of Joe Canning can't be even half adequately filled by Galway.
I've never been to O'Connor Park before, can anyone tell me the best place to park up the car before the ground coming from Portlaoise?
Galway have no chance now in my view. Canning at 70% won't be enough. They need to concentrate on producing a performance.
Typical, TYPICAL!! Canning would be feckin injured wouldn't he be, Kilkenny lucky again as per usual. If and I mean IF Canning was 100% fit and nothing else, and the other Galway players were on their top game then I was hoping that Galway could go on and actually beat Kilkenny. They are the best without question, but they do get a cake walk ever season to the semi final/final usually the final. And I was hoping that Galway would be able to put it up to them and might even beat them, but now I can see them being blown out of the water. FFS. Typical, just so fuckin typical.
Quote from: An Fhairche Abu on June 16, 2009, 04:52:56 PM
You'd have to think that while Kilkenny can sustain the loss of some of their starters due to the panel depth, the loss of Joe Canning can't be even half adequately filled by Galway.
I've never been to O'Connor Park before, can anyone tell me the best place to park up the car before the ground coming from Portlaoise?
I'd nearly park down in the Bridge Centre, or maybe the Car Park near Tullamore Dew. Parking around O'Connor Park can be a mare, but it's a handy walk from the town. Picture attached...
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c358/AZOffaly/Tullamore.jpg)
Quote
Kilkenny lucky again as per usual.
Sorry, I don't usually do this but....
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Reillers on June 16, 2009, 05:18:58 PM
Typical, TYPICAL!! Canning would be feckin injured wouldn't he be, Kilkenny lucky again as per usual. If and I mean IF Canning was 100% fit and nothing else, and the other Galway players were on their top game then I was hoping that Galway could go on and actually beat Kilkenny. They are the best without question, but they do get a cake walk ever season to the semi final/final usually the final. And I was hoping that Galway would be able to put it up to them and might even beat them, but now I can see them being blown out of the water. FFS. Typical, just so fuckin typical.
In all honesty Reillers Munster hasn't exactly produced anything to challenge KK this year so far, two games - 1 ok but highlighted more weaknesses than strengths for both teams and the other game was truly awful. You worry about your own Province and we will worry about ours.
I can't see Galway beating Kilkenny, they might stick with them for 40 or 50 mins but KK to pull away
Quote from: EddieMerx on June 16, 2009, 05:50:32 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 16, 2009, 05:18:58 PM
Typical, TYPICAL!! Canning would be feckin injured wouldn't he be, Kilkenny lucky again as per usual. If and I mean IF Canning was 100% fit and nothing else, and the other Galway players were on their top game then I was hoping that Galway could go on and actually beat Kilkenny. They are the best without question, but they do get a cake walk ever season to the semi final/final usually the final. And I was hoping that Galway would be able to put it up to them and might even beat them, but now I can see them being blown out of the water. FFS. Typical, just so fuckin typical.
In all honesty Reillers Munster hasn't exactly produced anything to challenge KK this year so far, two games - 1 ok but highlighted more weaknesses than strengths for both teams and the other game was truly awful. You worry about your own Province and we will worry about ours.
I can't see Galway beating Kilkenny, they might stick with them for 40 or 50 mins but KK to pull away
It's not the point, I know Kilkenny are by far better then anything in Munster, but for the Munster teams to challenge Kilkenny they need fair ground, Munster is competitive it's hard games, Kilkenny as good as they are have a cake walk to the semi usually the final, every season with the likes of the poorer teams in Leinster. I know Kilkenny are better but it'd be a hell lot easier if there was even ground and teams weren't running out of steam by the time they get to the final, while Kilkenny are there nice and fresh and having been able to time their peak to perfection. Kilkenny are excellent, but there should be even ground, as it is there's not and Munster are far more competitive and you'll get much tougher games there then you will in Leinster. It probably wouldn't have much impact on the Kilkenny preformance anyway, but it would help if both teams were after the same level of matches when they met eachother.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 16, 2009, 05:22:04 PM
Quote
Kilkenny lucky again as per usual.
Sorry, I don't usually do this but....
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
::) ::) You know what I mean, they are fantastic obviously, but they always seem to get the lucky draw or the lucky breaks. They'd probably win anyway, but it gives the other team less of a chance.
Quote from: Reillers on June 16, 2009, 05:18:58 PM
Typical, TYPICAL!! Kilkenny lucky again as per usual.
FFS. Typical, just so fuckin typical.
What do you mean?
Reillers, Munster has provided the All Ireland finalists for the last two years and we all saw how they went, I think the fact that Offaly beat Limerick and should have beaten Waterford combined with Wexford beating Tipp the previous year and should have beaten Waterford last year goes to prove your point makes no sense.
Galway to have a a competitive lose which will set them up nicely for the rest of the year.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 16, 2009, 05:19:58 PM
Quote from: An Fhairche Abu on June 16, 2009, 04:52:56 PM
You'd have to think that while Kilkenny can sustain the loss of some of their starters due to the panel depth, the loss of Joe Canning can't be even half adequately filled by Galway.
I've never been to O'Connor Park before, can anyone tell me the best place to park up the car before the ground coming from Portlaoise?
I'd nearly park down in the Bridge Centre, or maybe the Car Park near Tullamore Dew. Parking around O'Connor Park can be a mare, but it's a handy walk from the town. Picture attached...
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c358/AZOffaly/Tullamore.jpg)
Thanks a million AZ!
Quote from: EddieMerx on June 16, 2009, 07:51:12 PM
Reillers, Munster has provided the All Ireland finalists for the last two years and we all saw how they went, I think the fact that Offaly beat Limerick and should have beaten Waterford combined with Wexford beating Tipp the previous year and should have beaten Waterford last year goes to prove your point makes no sense.
Munster have providede finalists for as far as I can remember back 6 years. Limerick were poor and if were honest that was supposed to be Waterford's year to go on and beat Kilkenny, but they lost against Limerick after having played Cork twice, 2 massive high intensity games but ran out of steam against Limerick. Limerick werer never ever going to win that final. I mean wasn't even in question, and then Waterford made it to the final a year top late and by then they'd nothing left to give.
But for the other 4 years they were massive hard competitive games. No Leinster team tries in Leinster, they don't believe they're beaten by 20 odd points before the game, the qualifiers are their main priorties.
Noel Hickey vs. Joe Canning would have been some battle had it materialised.
Kilkenny's injury list is growing and Galway have been the closet thing to a bogey team for the Cats under Cody.
Galway might set a tend of beating them every 4 years.
2001, 2005, 2009???
Quote from: Ash Smoker on June 16, 2009, 09:07:28 PM
Noel Hickey vs. Joe Canning would have been some battle had it materialised.
Kilkenny's injury list is growing and Galway have been the closet thing to a bogey team for the Cats under Cody.
Galway might set a tend of beating them every 4 years.
2001, 2005, 2009???
Was looking foward to this.
Galway can only benefit from having a match against the cats at this time of the year. I don't care if they get beaten provided they win an all-ireland in the next 3 years ;) in the name of all the dead generations of non premier, non rebel and non cat counties.
Quote from: Reillers on June 16, 2009, 07:15:16 PM
Quote from: EddieMerx on June 16, 2009, 05:50:32 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 16, 2009, 05:18:58 PM
Typical, TYPICAL!! Canning would be feckin injured wouldn't he be, Kilkenny lucky again as per usual. If and I mean IF Canning was 100% fit and nothing else, and the other Galway players were on their top game then I was hoping that Galway could go on and actually beat Kilkenny. They are the best without question, but they do get a cake walk ever season to the semi final/final usually the final. And I was hoping that Galway would be able to put it up to them and might even beat them, but now I can see them being blown out of the water. FFS. Typical, just so fuckin typical.
In all honesty Reillers Munster hasn't exactly produced anything to challenge KK this year so far, two games - 1 ok but highlighted more weaknesses than strengths for both teams and the other game was truly awful. You worry about your own Province and we will worry about ours.
I can't see Galway beating Kilkenny, they might stick with them for 40 or 50 mins but KK to pull away
It's not the point, I know Kilkenny are by far better then anything in Munster, but for the Munster teams to challenge Kilkenny they need fair ground, Munster is competitive it's hard games, Kilkenny as good as they are have a cake walk to the semi usually the final, every season with the likes of the poorer teams in Leinster. I know Kilkenny are better but it'd be a hell lot easier if there was even ground and teams weren't running out of steam by the time they get to the final, while Kilkenny are there nice and fresh and having been able to time their peak to perfection. Kilkenny are excellent, but there should be even ground, as it is there's not and Munster are far more competitive and you'll get much tougher games there then you will in Leinster. It probably wouldn't have much impact on the Kilkenny preformance anyway, but it would help if both teams were after the same level of matches when they met eachother.
Havin watched Dublin being smashed by Tyrone last year after 5 weeks with no game I don't agree. Surely with more games -you'd be more sharp. Surely with the handier passage Kilkenny should be undercooked coming into play Munster teams who have 3/4 games behind them. Lets face it Kilkenny are simply a class apart.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 16, 2009, 09:33:30 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 16, 2009, 07:15:16 PM
Quote from: EddieMerx on June 16, 2009, 05:50:32 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 16, 2009, 05:18:58 PM
Typical, TYPICAL!! Canning would be feckin injured wouldn't he be, Kilkenny lucky again as per usual. If and I mean IF Canning was 100% fit and nothing else, and the other Galway players were on their top game then I was hoping that Galway could go on and actually beat Kilkenny. They are the best without question, but they do get a cake walk ever season to the semi final/final usually the final. And I was hoping that Galway would be able to put it up to them and might even beat them, but now I can see them being blown out of the water. FFS. Typical, just so fuckin typical.
In all honesty Reillers Munster hasn't exactly produced anything to challenge KK this year so far, two games - 1 ok but highlighted more weaknesses than strengths for both teams and the other game was truly awful. You worry about your own Province and we will worry about ours.
I can't see Galway beating Kilkenny, they might stick with them for 40 or 50 mins but KK to pull away
It's not the point, I know Kilkenny are by far better then anything in Munster, but for the Munster teams to challenge Kilkenny they need fair ground, Munster is competitive it's hard games, Kilkenny as good as they are have a cake walk to the semi usually the final, every season with the likes of the poorer teams in Leinster. I know Kilkenny are better but it'd be a hell lot easier if there was even ground and teams weren't running out of steam by the time they get to the final, while Kilkenny are there nice and fresh and having been able to time their peak to perfection. Kilkenny are excellent, but there should be even ground, as it is there's not and Munster are far more competitive and you'll get much tougher games there then you will in Leinster. It probably wouldn't have much impact on the Kilkenny preformance anyway, but it would help if both teams were after the same level of matches when they met eachother.
Havin watched Dublin being smashed by Tyrone last year after 5 weeks with no game I don't agree. Surely with more games -you'd be more sharp. Surely with the handier passage Kilkenny should be undercooked coming into play Munster teams who have 3/4 games behind them. Lets face it Kilkenny are simply a class apart.
The fact that they are a class apart isn't what's relevant.
Kilkenny have very competitive training games that are legendary at this stage. But if you're Tipp and you've to play Cork and then say Waterford in two extremley hard competitive games, and then you're Kilkenny who've to play Wexford and Dublin.
Who's going to feel that pinch more when you get to a semi/final?
Quote from: Reillers on June 16, 2009, 09:37:02 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on June 16, 2009, 09:33:30 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 16, 2009, 07:15:16 PM
Quote from: EddieMerx on June 16, 2009, 05:50:32 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 16, 2009, 05:18:58 PM
Typical, TYPICAL!! Canning would be feckin injured wouldn't he be, Kilkenny lucky again as per usual. If and I mean IF Canning was 100% fit and nothing else, and the other Galway players were on their top game then I was hoping that Galway could go on and actually beat Kilkenny. They are the best without question, but they do get a cake walk ever season to the semi final/final usually the final. And I was hoping that Galway would be able to put it up to them and might even beat them, but now I can see them being blown out of the water. FFS. Typical, just so fuckin typical.
In all honesty Reillers Munster hasn't exactly produced anything to challenge KK this year so far, two games - 1 ok but highlighted more weaknesses than strengths for both teams and the other game was truly awful. You worry about your own Province and we will worry about ours.
I can't see Galway beating Kilkenny, they might stick with them for 40 or 50 mins but KK to pull away
It's not the point, I know Kilkenny are by far better then anything in Munster, but for the Munster teams to challenge Kilkenny they need fair ground, Munster is competitive it's hard games, Kilkenny as good as they are have a cake walk to the semi usually the final, every season with the likes of the poorer teams in Leinster. I know Kilkenny are better but it'd be a hell lot easier if there was even ground and teams weren't running out of steam by the time they get to the final, while Kilkenny are there nice and fresh and having been able to time their peak to perfection. Kilkenny are excellent, but there should be even ground, as it is there's not and Munster are far more competitive and you'll get much tougher games there then you will in Leinster. It probably wouldn't have much impact on the Kilkenny preformance anyway, but it would help if both teams were after the same level of matches when they met eachother.
Havin watched Dublin being smashed by Tyrone last year after 5 weeks with no game I don't agree. Surely with more games -you'd be more sharp. Surely with the handier passage Kilkenny should be undercooked coming into play Munster teams who have 3/4 games behind them. Lets face it Kilkenny are simply a class apart.
The fact that they are a class apart isn't what's relevant.
Kilkenny have very competitive training games that are legendary at this stage. But if you're Tipp and you've to play Cork and then say Waterford in two extremley hard competitive games, and then you're Kilkenny who've to play Wexford and Dublin.
Who's going to feel that pinch more when you get to a semi/final?
Having two or more tough games in the legendary Munster championship should be far better preparation than beating teams in Leinster 'who've already given up' - the intensity of KK's training sessions notwithstanding
I don't agree Reillers- you can't beat hard match practice. In my view Cork and Tipp are far better prepared than Kilkenny for the all-ireland series. You can't beat competitve games. Cork have always had 2 weeks to prepare for a championship tilt against kilkenny sometimes more. I've looked at all the sports science manuals on recovery and 2 weeks even for amateur sportsmen is ample time. Kilkenny are just better . I really wish the GAA for one season would abolish the provincial championships and give kilkenny a pass into Munster just to put this argument to bed once and for all.
QuoteKilkenny have very competitive training games that are legendary at this stage
Indeed and I wonder how much of it is legend!! I lived there for a few years and attended a few training sessions and saw nothing extraordinary. But the myth has developed and will be kept alive. The reason Kilkenny are the best is that by the time players come into the senior panel they have a full range of skills that they developed at a young age. Cody does not have to waste time coaching them and getting rid of bad habits. Add in the fact that they keep the game simple, keep their feet on the ground with no big egos and you get a successful team. The fact that for the most part there is no football in the county helps also - all available time at under age level is devoted to hurling whereas in a lot of other counties the time is divided between football and hurling.
QuoteThe fact that for the most part there is no football in the county helps also - all available time at under age level is devoted to hurling whereas in a lot of other counties the time is divided between football and hurling.
I agree with this, this has to be a major contribution to Kilkennys success in hurling
QuoteI really wish the GAA for one season would abolish the provincial championships and give kilkenny a pass into Munster just to put this argument to bed once and for all.
There was an article in the connact tribune last week referring mostly to football admittedly, where the journalist feels the time for the back door format is over.
Reillers are you putting forward an arguement then for an open draw to stop the percieved cake walk of kilkenny? And what then of the oh so precious munster hurling championship?
Quote from: Reillers on June 16, 2009, 07:15:16 PM
Munster is competitive it's hard games
really? When did this happen?
its competitive by virtue of the fact that there are a lot of teams producing the same substandard fare. Last weekend, for example, would have been poor by Christy Ring cup standards (and the weather can't be blamed for what we saw in the first half). Limerick and Waterford would be pushing it to be ahead of Dublin and Wexford (and maybe even Offaly) if they were held up against Leinster teams.
And Kilkenny lucky? You sure? They have had injury problems the length of your arm season after season. This season being no different.
The Munster championship hasn't been competitive for years. If you think any performance by any team in that championship this year is something that could have beaten Kilkenny, then I think you're sorely mistaken.
In fairness bt7, I think you are substituting high quality for competitive. I think the Munster Championship is competitive, in that most of the games are close enough, and most of the 5 major hurling counties would harbour ambitions of winning it every year.
In standard, however, I agree with you. Just because a province is competitive, does not mean it is of a high standard. Ulster football was competitive long before their representatives were of a high standard.
Munster used to be a lot higher standard, but it's not lost it's competitiveness.
Now, whether it has lost it's 'edge' is another story, and I think it has. Clare were like a wet blanket against Tipp in the final last year, and none of Tipp, Cork, Limerick or Waterford were really at a high level of intensity either.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 17, 2009, 01:48:13 PM
In fairness bt7, I think you are substituting high quality for competitive. I think the Munster Championship is competitive, in that most of the games are close enough, and most of the 5 major hurling counties would harbour ambitions of winning it every year.
In standard, however, I agree with you. Just because a province is competitive, does not mean it is of a high standard. Ulster football was competitive long before their representatives were of a high standard.
Munster used to be a lot higher standard, but it's not lost it's competitiveness.
Now, whether it has lost it's 'edge' is another story, and I think it has. Clare were like a wet blanket against Tipp in the final last year, and none of Tipp, Cork, Limerick or Waterford were really at a high level of intensity either.
no, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm saying. Its the same as what you said.
the poor standard of the Munster championship over the last number of years is, in my opinion, a direct reflection of how the competing teams view it right now. In the overall scheme of things it doesn't matter a damn. A season with a Munster title but no all-Ireland is just not good enough for teams with any serious aspirations. Teams realise this. They don't want to peak in early summer. Thus, only a token effort is made. Its no fluke that these teams are frequently a lot better come august when the knock-out fare starts.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 17, 2009, 02:18:48 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 17, 2009, 01:48:13 PM
In fairness bt7, I think you are substituting high quality for competitive. I think the Munster Championship is competitive, in that most of the games are close enough, and most of the 5 major hurling counties would harbour ambitions of winning it every year.
In standard, however, I agree with you. Just because a province is competitive, does not mean it is of a high standard. Ulster football was competitive long before their representatives were of a high standard.
Munster used to be a lot higher standard, but it's not lost it's competitiveness.
Now, whether it has lost it's 'edge' is another story, and I think it has. Clare were like a wet blanket against Tipp in the final last year, and none of Tipp, Cork, Limerick or Waterford were really at a high level of intensity either.
no, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm saying. Its the same as what you said.
the poor standard of the Munster championship over the last number of years is, in my opinion, a direct reflection of how the competing teams view it right now. In the overall scheme of things it doesn't matter a damn. A season with a Munster title but no all-Ireland is just not good enough for teams with any serious aspirations. Teams realise this. They don't want to peak in early summer. Thus, only a token effort is made. Its no fluke that these teams are frequently a lot better come august when the knock-out fare starts.
Typical from a Leinster man.
See in Muster the teams still care very much about winning Munster. And while you may think that it's not high standard. But these are the only teams that will go and challenge Kilkenny, there is no one else. And you're right a Munster title isn't viewed as enough for Cork or Tipp..etc. but it still means something. And while you may think that they don't care about it, they still have to play it. And if you win it, which people want to do, you get the easy route to the semi final. It still has to be played for teams to go to the semi final, so no Munster team can afford to time their peak, the only team that has the luxury of that is Kilkenny, and they've done it for years. Yes these teams are a lot better come August, but the Munster championship still has to be played and teams still want to win it to get to the semi final, in what is still a competitive tournament, where you've Tipp players comeing out after the game saying that was the hardest game they've played in a long time, levels above the League, (and that said after they played Kilkenny.)
It still has to be played, it is still competitive and teams want to win it, either to have the success of winning the title, or to get to the semi final the easy way, which means that Munster teams, unlike Kilkenny can't afford to time their peak because unless they play those games and win those games, they wont be there in August.
So would I be right in assuming Reillers that you reckon Cork would have more All Irelands if they were in Leinster?
Would you not agree that the lack of success of Galway,in recent years, is an illustration of how an easy route is most certainly not beneficial?
Quote from: Reillers on June 17, 2009, 03:03:39 PM
no Munster team can afford to time their peak, the only team that has the luxury of that is Kilkenny, and they've done it for years.
its not necessarily about 'timing' your peak though. Like, theres no button you can press that makes 'now' your peak time. Reaching your peak, how to do so, etc, differs from team to team. A settled side like Kilkenny will find themselves in more control of something like this than a side with a lot of new names like Limerick or the current Cork setup. Those teams, while I'm sure they'd rather a munster title, may be better off heading through the back door. The Cork side of 2004 won out because of the route they took to the final. Games fell at the right time and they were learning and developing as they went. They may not have had the benefit of what they learned through the back-door had they not had the extra games.
Anyone remember Clare throwing a Munster final? Dave Forde? 21-yard free? I do.
Kilkenny might not have gotten near the '04 final had Wexford not beaten them in Leinster that year. Actually I'm almost sure they wouldn't have. They were a team on the decline and, again, it was how and when games fell that enabled them go as far as they did.
In that context a team like Limerick might be better off through the back-door. Or even Cork or Clare. Waterford or Tipp are the only sides that I could see preferring the 'less' games route, being closer to being able to control when they peak.
The argument about Kilkenny getting a soft path to the final has not been valid for at the guts of 10 years now at this stage. If it were the case we'll no doubt start seeing Galway clearing up with all-Irelands over the next few years, seeing as they'll have pretty much the same path.
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 17, 2009, 03:36:18 PM
So would I be right in assuming Reillers that you reckon Cork would have more All Irelands if they were in Leinster?
Would you not agree that the lack of success of Galway,in recent years, is an illustration of how an easy route is most certainly not beneficial?
No, well that's neither here nor there.
Kilkenny for the past 3 years have been by far the better team, whether the cakewalk they've had for the past few years would have had any impact on them is unlikely, but it's the effect on their opposition that matters.
Do I think if say Kilkenny had been in Munster and Waterford had been in Leinster in 07 that they would have both been in the final and Waterford would have had a much better chance of winning the AI or running Kilkenny close, instead of falling against Limerick in the semi after a very long season to that point, yes, possibly.
I just think it would level the ground a bit. Kilkenny are better then anyone else at the minute, but if Kikenny had to play the same amount of competitive games like they do in Munster, instead of the likes of Dublin, Wexford..etc then I think things would even itself out a little more. It's hard enough trying to beat the best team on a normal day, but when you've had to play hard tiring games before hand while the other better team is able to time their peak, have their better players rested or recover from injuries and get good run outs against weaker teams, it makes it harder for the team that has to go and try and beat them.
Quote from: Reillers on June 17, 2009, 03:48:55 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 17, 2009, 03:36:18 PM
So would I be right in assuming Reillers that you reckon Cork would have more All Irelands if they were in Leinster?
Would you not agree that the lack of success of Galway,in recent years, is an illustration of how an easy route is most certainly not beneficial?
No, well that's neither here nor there.
Kilkenny for the past 3 years have been by far the better team, whether the cakewalk they've had for the past few years would have had any impact on them is unlikely, but it's the effect on their opposition that matters.
Do I think if say Kilkenny had been in Munster and Waterford had been in Leinster in 07 that they would have both been in the final and Waterford would have had a much better chance of winning the AI or running Kilkenny close, instead of falling against Limerick in the semi after a very long season to that point, yes, possibly.
I just think it would level the ground a bit. Kilkenny are better then anyone else at the minute, but if Kikenny had to play the same amount of competitive games like they do in Munster, instead of the likes of Dublin, Wexford..etc then I think things would even itself out a little more. It's hard enough trying to beat the best team on a normal day, but when you've had to play hard tiring games before hand while the other better team is able to time their peak, have their better players rested or recover from injuries and get good run outs against weaker teams, it makes it harder for the team that has to go and try and beat them.
Its a double-edged sword though. On one hand Kilkenny would likely have reached less finals. On the other they'd probably have a far better return of those they contested. For example the Kilkenny team that contested the 1987 final was very weak. If they were in Munster they wouldn't have gotten near an all-Ireland final. And look how they were found out. But people never complained back then. Galway had it even easier sure. Only more recently did the complaining start.. And Leinster's demise is not Kilkenny's fault. It took a little while, but now the standard of the Munster championship is on a par with the rest of Leinster. So its as you were before all the complaining started.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 17, 2009, 03:45:32 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 17, 2009, 03:03:39 PM
no Munster team can afford to time their peak, the only team that has the luxury of that is Kilkenny, and they've done it for years.
its not necessarily about 'timing' your peak though. Like, theres no button you can press that makes 'now' your peak time. Reaching your peak, how to do so, etc, differs from team to team. A settled side like Kilkenny will find themselves in more control of something like this than a side with a lot of new names like Limerick or the current Cork setup. Those teams, while I'm sure they'd rather a munster title, may be better off heading through the back door. The Cork side of 2004 won out because of the route they took to the final. Games fell at the right time and they were learning and developing as they went. They may not have had the benefit of what they learned through the back-door had they not had the extra games.
Anyone remember Clare throwing a Munster final? Dave Forde? 21-yard free? I do.
Kilkenny might not have gotten near the '04 final had Wexford not beaten them in Leinster that year. Actually I'm almost sure they wouldn't have. They were a team on the decline and, again, it was how and when games fell that enabled them go as far as they did.
In that context a team like Limerick might be better off through the back-door. Or even Cork or Clare. Waterford or Tipp are the only sides that I could see preferring the 'less' games route, being closer to being able to control when they peak.
The argument about Kilkenny getting a soft path to the final has not been valid for at the guts of 10 years now at this stage. If it were the case we'll no doubt start seeing Galway clearing up with all-Irelands over the next few years, seeing as they'll have pretty much the same path.
No I agree you can't "time" your peak, but you can aim for when you hope to peak and Cody is excellent at doing so.
Galway were put in Leinster for a reason, and it wasn't just to give Galway another shot, it was to try and level the competitive nature of the provincial championships.
If you're Tipp, and you've to play Cork, and then Waterford, one after the other and you want to go that direct route, and like you said, I think Cork will actually benefit this year with the backdoor for getting the young lads to click and Aisake back his touch and such, but no one really wants to have to go the back door unless you've a very unsettled side. But if you want to go the direct route which most want to, especially if you want to be challenging for an AI, then you need to be ready, all guns blazing at the start of June, not August like Kilkenny.
If you're Kilkenny, you're able to time almost the level of intensity you play at, building up and building it up, I mean Cody has it down to an art at this stage.
And like I said, it isn't a matter of Kilkenny only winning AI's because they get the soft route, they are the best and it probably doesn't have that much of an impact on them. But it's the impact it has on the likes of Tipp that will matter.
If you've to play hard competitive games all the way through to the final, with players not having much chance to recover and get rid of injuries, and not being able to look ahead to September, but only the next game in mind, it's going to impact on you're season. If you're Kilkenny and Shefflin gets injured and isn't 100% fit, they can afford to rest him for the Leinster game because they're not going to miss him at all against the likes of Dublin, but if you're Cork and Ben picks up a knock and isn't 100% fit, and you're to play Tipp, you can't afford to rest him, but then you run the risk of not having a fully fit Ben O Connor and possibly making the injury worse and loosing him for another game or so.
And then say you do get to the final, you've nothing much left in the tank, very little left to give, and you come up against a Kilkenny side who is not only better, but rested and ready, odds aren't going to be in your favour are they?
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 17, 2009, 04:01:15 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 17, 2009, 03:48:55 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 17, 2009, 03:36:18 PM
So would I be right in assuming Reillers that you reckon Cork would have more All Irelands if they were in Leinster?
Would you not agree that the lack of success of Galway,in recent years, is an illustration of how an easy route is most certainly not beneficial?
No, well that's neither here nor there.
Kilkenny for the past 3 years have been by far the better team, whether the cakewalk they've had for the past few years would have had any impact on them is unlikely, but it's the effect on their opposition that matters.
Do I think if say Kilkenny had been in Munster and Waterford had been in Leinster in 07 that they would have both been in the final and Waterford would have had a much better chance of winning the AI or running Kilkenny close, instead of falling against Limerick in the semi after a very long season to that point, yes, possibly.
I just think it would level the ground a bit. Kilkenny are better then anyone else at the minute, but if Kikenny had to play the same amount of competitive games like they do in Munster, instead of the likes of Dublin, Wexford..etc then I think things would even itself out a little more. It's hard enough trying to beat the best team on a normal day, but when you've had to play hard tiring games before hand while the other better team is able to time their peak, have their better players rested or recover from injuries and get good run outs against weaker teams, it makes it harder for the team that has to go and try and beat them.
Its a double-edged sword though. On one hand Kilkenny would likely have reached less finals. On the other they'd probably have a far better return of those they contested. For example the Kilkenny team that contested the 1987 final was very weak. If they were in Munster they wouldn't have gotten near an all-Ireland final. And look how they were found out. But people never complained back then. Galway had it even easier sure. Only more recently did the complaining start.. And Leinster's demise is not Kilkenny's fault. It took a little while, but now the standard of the Munster championship is on a par with the rest of Leinster. So its as you were before all the complaining started.
But that was 87, I think we all know that it's much more professional at this stage, I mean most top teams are professional in everything but name at this stage. And like I've continually said, it's not a question of how good Kilkenny are or what impact it has on them, they are by far the better team, but it's the impact it has on the challenging team that matters.
I agree 100% in no way is Leinster's poor standard in anyway Kilkenny's fault. But as much as some Leinster type try to say so, Munster is still much better then the level of teams in Leinster, and I think the fact that Galway were moved in there says a lot.
Never mind all this munster v leinster palavar are we now saying that Kilkenny will field this weekend without Brian Hogan, Michael Kavanagh and Noel Hickey? If we are then that is a serious blow to any team no matter how good the panel. Hickey has been the best full back in ireland for at least five years and Kavanagh has been nailed on in corner back for 11 years. Bound to be a severe blow to loose them. Add on the fact that JJ Delany will now have to move to full back most likely and the cats have lost 2 outa 3 from the full back line and 2 outa 3 from the half back line that won the all ireland last year. The cats defensive strength in depth will be severly tested by this, last time they were this weak defensivly they lost to Galway when Niall Healy got a hat trick of goals. The odds on Galway winning this match must have shortened considerably.
Quote from: Reillers on June 17, 2009, 04:05:36 PM
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 17, 2009, 04:01:15 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 17, 2009, 03:48:55 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 17, 2009, 03:36:18 PM
So would I be right in assuming Reillers that you reckon Cork would have more All Irelands if they were in Leinster?
Would you not agree that the lack of success of Galway,in recent years, is an illustration of how an easy route is most certainly not beneficial?
No, well that's neither here nor there.
Kilkenny for the past 3 years have been by far the better team, whether the cakewalk they've had for the past few years would have had any impact on them is unlikely, but it's the effect on their opposition that matters.
Do I think if say Kilkenny had been in Munster and Waterford had been in Leinster in 07 that they would have both been in the final and Waterford would have had a much better chance of winning the AI or running Kilkenny close, instead of falling against Limerick in the semi after a very long season to that point, yes, possibly.
I just think it would level the ground a bit. Kilkenny are better then anyone else at the minute, but if Kikenny had to play the same amount of competitive games like they do in Munster, instead of the likes of Dublin, Wexford..etc then I think things would even itself out a little more. It's hard enough trying to beat the best team on a normal day, but when you've had to play hard tiring games before hand while the other better team is able to time their peak, have their better players rested or recover from injuries and get good run outs against weaker teams, it makes it harder for the team that has to go and try and beat them.
Its a double-edged sword though. On one hand Kilkenny would likely have reached less finals. On the other they'd probably have a far better return of those they contested. For example the Kilkenny team that contested the 1987 final was very weak. If they were in Munster they wouldn't have gotten near an all-Ireland final. And look how they were found out. But people never complained back then. Galway had it even easier sure. Only more recently did the complaining start.. And Leinster's demise is not Kilkenny's fault. It took a little while, but now the standard of the Munster championship is on a par with the rest of Leinster. So its as you were before all the complaining started.
But that was 87, I think we all know that it's much more professional at this stage, I mean most top teams are professional in everything but name at this stage. And like I've continually said, it's not a question of how good Kilkenny are or what impact it has on them, they are by far the better team, but it's the impact it has on the challenging team that matters.
I agree 100% in no way is Leinster's poor standard in anyway Kilkenny's fault. But as much as some Leinster type try to say so, Munster is still much better then the level of teams in Leinster, and I think the fact that Galway were moved in there says a lot.
Reillers why do you keep ignoring the evidence.
Offaly beat limerick last year
there is nothing between waterford and wexford
kilkenny beat cork
How can you say its a better standard when the head to head suggests otherwise?
Quote from: Reillers on June 17, 2009, 04:02:15 PM
If you're Kilkenny, you're able to time almost the level of intensity you play at, building up and building it up, I mean Cody has it down to an art at this stage.
And like I said, it isn't a matter of Kilkenny only winning AI's because they get the soft route, they are the best and it probably doesn't have that much of an impact on them. But it's the impact it has on the likes of Tipp that will matter.
If you've to play hard competitive games all the way through to the final, with players not having much chance to recover and get rid of injuries, and not being able to look ahead to September, but only the next game in mind, it's going to impact on you're season. If you're Kilkenny and Shefflin gets injured and isn't 100% fit, they can afford to rest him for the Leinster game because they're not going to miss him at all against the likes of Dublin, but if you're Cork and Ben picks up a knock and isn't 100% fit, and you're to play Tipp, you can't afford to rest him, but then you run the risk of not having a fully fit Ben O Connor and possibly making the injury worse and loosing him for another game or so.
ok, I take that point. There certainly is merit to it. But, not so much simply in the context of the Munster championship. I think most sides would rest an injured player in a Munster tie, knowing they'd rather have them in the back door than not have them through the front door (depending on the player in question). I think its a more valid argument in the context of what happened, say Cork and Wexford in 1992 (with the league final replays), or Waterford in 2007. In those cases games piled up on top of each other and players definitely burnt out. Look at this year's championship though. Tipp play Clare this weekend. Tipp have had a 3-week layoff since their last game. They're fit lads. Its not like we're talking 3 games in 8 days, as can often be the case at club level. We're talking 3-weeks. Plenty of time to rest. Its different from Limerick and Waterford admittedly, but no different from the case were Galway and Kilkenny to draw on saturday.
The burnout argument doesn't really hold with me. Some will argue having more games is better. I know thats the mindset in Kilkenny, despite what some might think. Yes, Cody is very adept at having Kilkenny primed for when they need to be at their best, but thats in the context of the situation Kilkenny find themselves in. Whats to say he still wouldn't be excellent at it if Kilkenny were in the Munster championship? He might have to do it slightly differently, but would it be beyond him? Maybe. Maybe not.
Quote from: Reillers on June 17, 2009, 04:05:36 PM
But as much as some Leinster type try to say so, Munster is still much better then the level of teams in Leinster, and I think the fact that Galway were moved in there says a lot.
we'll have to agree to disagree on this then. On the evidence of this year's munster championship its very difficult to put forward an argument backing this up.
And as for Galway, I think its no secret that a lot of the tweaking thats been done to the hurling championship since 1997 has been firmly with Galway in mind. They'd have been in Leinster long before now were it not for some resistance within the county. Leinster was the logical place for them to go. But it wasn't because of Leinster's problems. It just made sense all-round.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 17, 2009, 04:14:01 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 17, 2009, 04:02:15 PM
If you're Kilkenny, you're able to time almost the level of intensity you play at, building up and building it up, I mean Cody has it down to an art at this stage.
And like I said, it isn't a matter of Kilkenny only winning AI's because they get the soft route, they are the best and it probably doesn't have that much of an impact on them. But it's the impact it has on the likes of Tipp that will matter.
If you've to play hard competitive games all the way through to the final, with players not having much chance to recover and get rid of injuries, and not being able to look ahead to September, but only the next game in mind, it's going to impact on you're season. If you're Kilkenny and Shefflin gets injured and isn't 100% fit, they can afford to rest him for the Leinster game because they're not going to miss him at all against the likes of Dublin, but if you're Cork and Ben picks up a knock and isn't 100% fit, and you're to play Tipp, you can't afford to rest him, but then you run the risk of not having a fully fit Ben O Connor and possibly making the injury worse and loosing him for another game or so.
ok, I take that point. There certainly is merit to it. But, not so much simply in the context of the Munster championship. I think most sides would rest an injured player in a Munster tie, knowing they'd rather have them in the back door than not have them through the front door (depending on the player in question). I think its a more valid argument in the context of what happened, say Cork and Wexford in 1992 (with the league final replays), or Waterford in 2007. In those cases games piled up on top of each other and players definitely burnt out. Look at this year's championship though. Tipp play Clare this weekend. Tipp have had a 3-week layoff since their last game. They're fit lads. Its not like we're talking 3 games in 8 days, as can often be the case at club level. We're talking 3-weeks. Plenty of time to rest. Its different from Limerick and Waterford admittedly, but no different from the case were Galway and Kilkenny to draw on saturday.
The burnout argument doesn't really hold with me. Some will argue having more games is better. I know thats the mindset in Kilkenny, despite what some might think. Yes, Cody is very adept at having Kilkenny primed for when they need to be at their best, but thats in the context of the situation Kilkenny find themselves in. Whats to say he still wouldn't be excellent at it if Kilkenny were in the Munster championship? He might have to do it slightly differently, but would it be beyond him? Maybe. Maybe not.
In 2007, that was one hell of a Munster championship.
Cork beat Clare in a high scoring game in the first round. Tipp and Limerick met, they had to play 3 times before they were seperated, and then Waterford played Cork (minus the suspended 3) and won by 3 points, it was an incredibly tough game, high intensity, end to end stuff, Cork hitting the post in the last second or two, which would have forced a replay, but the score was in points 30-27. And then Waterford met Limerick, after they eventually beat Tipp, and beat them well in another high scoring game.
Waterford then met Cork twice, two massively hard end to end intense games, they'd everything, including bad reffing might I add, but by the time Waterford met Limerick in the semi Waterford had nothing left to give, they were out on their feet. They were probably the team of the championship that year, but they were running on nothing by the time the semi came.
If Waterford had played Offaly, Wexford twice and Galway, and Kilkenny had Waterford's fixtures.
I think they would have had a fair chance of winning the AI that year, or a better one at least then they did in the 08 final, and then again in 2008 the "form" team Tipp didn't make the final, Waterford did because Tipp couldn't finish them.
And if you want to win the Munster final, and you've Clare, Cork and Tipp to play you're not going to be able to afford to rest your best player are you? But Kilkenny can rest theirs. They play Galway now, and I had hope that Galway might actually beat them, at least give them a game, but now the one reason I thought they might is now gone, Canning could well miss the game. So the purpose of Galway being there isn't as important as it should have been. No Canning, no confidence, no superstar. Galway are not in the same level as they are without Canning.
Burnout is, can be an excuse but other times it's clear. It has an impact on a lot of players, especially younger players who want to play all the time. I mean a few years agothe twins were playing non stop all the time with their club and county. It didn't really have much of an impact on them though I suppose, but then you've got the likes of Corcoran who retired early because of burn out. He was sick of it.
But the typical GAA though, they preach about burn out and all that jazz, but then when it comes to putting fixtures for the underage sides, it's a joke. The playersd that are most vulnerable to burn out are the young lads but none of that seems to matter when they are setting dates for the likes of the U21s matches. But that's another story all together.
Kilkenny are an excellent side, but would Cody be so succesfull in Munster then he is in Leinster with the way he plans the teams peak, I guess we'll never no.
And while Galway has levelled the field a small bit, the standards still aren't there in Leinster. Ya you could have Wexford going 100% giving absolutely everything in one qualifier game against Waterford, it's one game that they've been building for all season, if they were to play 5 times, I'd predict Waterford to win each time. The same can be said for the other Leinster teams, it's one thing for them to give one game in the qualifiers absolutely everything they have and maybe coming out with a result, but it's another to keep that consistancy there, and keep that level there, which they can't do.
Galway beat fancied KK teams in 2 cracking matches in 2001 and 2005. There is a race memory of those matches somewhere in the Galway psyche if MCintyre can find it. The prospect of another KK all-ireland is about as exciting as thinking about Ryan Tubridy presenting the Late Late show. Even if Galway lose they'll have a better idea of what they are aiming for. The all-ireland strike rate should definitely improve over the next 20 years thanks to the leinster move. You don't need to be the best team to win an all-ireland. You need to take your chances when they materialise. Galway haven't done that since Joe Cooney and Éanna Ryan were in their prime. And St Joe of Canning is only early 20s. It's time for KK to get off the pot. They are to hurling today what shamrock rovers were to the 1980s.
Quote from: Reillers on June 17, 2009, 04:41:33 PM
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 17, 2009, 04:14:01 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 17, 2009, 04:02:15 PM
If you're Kilkenny, you're able to time almost the level of intensity you play at, building up and building it up, I mean Cody has it down to an art at this stage.
And like I said, it isn't a matter of Kilkenny only winning AI's because they get the soft route, they are the best and it probably doesn't have that much of an impact on them. But it's the impact it has on the likes of Tipp that will matter.
If you've to play hard competitive games all the way through to the final, with players not having much chance to recover and get rid of injuries, and not being able to look ahead to September, but only the next game in mind, it's going to impact on you're season. If you're Kilkenny and Shefflin gets injured and isn't 100% fit, they can afford to rest him for the Leinster game because they're not going to miss him at all against the likes of Dublin, but if you're Cork and Ben picks up a knock and isn't 100% fit, and you're to play Tipp, you can't afford to rest him, but then you run the risk of not having a fully fit Ben O Connor and possibly making the injury worse and loosing him for another game or so.
ok, I take that point. There certainly is merit to it. But, not so much simply in the context of the Munster championship. I think most sides would rest an injured player in a Munster tie, knowing they'd rather have them in the back door than not have them through the front door (depending on the player in question). I think its a more valid argument in the context of what happened, say Cork and Wexford in 1992 (with the league final replays), or Waterford in 2007. In those cases games piled up on top of each other and players definitely burnt out. Look at this year's championship though. Tipp play Clare this weekend. Tipp have had a 3-week layoff since their last game. They're fit lads. Its not like we're talking 3 games in 8 days, as can often be the case at club level. We're talking 3-weeks. Plenty of time to rest. Its different from Limerick and Waterford admittedly, but no different from the case were Galway and Kilkenny to draw on saturday.
The burnout argument doesn't really hold with me. Some will argue having more games is better. I know thats the mindset in Kilkenny, despite what some might think. Yes, Cody is very adept at having Kilkenny primed for when they need to be at their best, but thats in the context of the situation Kilkenny find themselves in. Whats to say he still wouldn't be excellent at it if Kilkenny were in the Munster championship? He might have to do it slightly differently, but would it be beyond him? Maybe. Maybe not.
In 2007, that was one hell of a Munster championship.
Cork beat Clare in a high scoring game in the first round. Tipp and Limerick met, they had to play 3 times before they were seperated, and then Waterford played Cork (minus the suspended 3) and won by 3 points, it was an incredibly tough game, high intensity, end to end stuff, Cork hitting the post in the last second or two, which would have forced a replay, but the score was in points 30-27. And then Waterford met Limerick, after they eventually beat Tipp, and beat them well in another high scoring game.
Waterford then met Cork twice, two massively hard end to end intense games, they'd everything, including bad reffing might I add, but by the time Waterford met Limerick in the semi Waterford had nothing left to give, they were out on their feet. They were probably the team of the championship that year, but they were running on nothing by the time the semi came.
If Waterford had played Offaly, Wexford twice and Galway, and Kilkenny had Waterford's fixtures.
I think they would have had a fair chance of winning the AI that year, or a better one at least then they did in the 08 final, and then again in 2008 the "form" team Tipp didn't make the final, Waterford did because Tipp couldn't finish them.
And if you want to win the Munster final, and you've Clare, Cork and Tipp to play you're not going to be able to afford to rest your best player are you? But Kilkenny can rest theirs. They play Galway now, and I had hope that Galway might actually beat them, at least give them a game, but now the one reason I thought they might is now gone, Canning could well miss the game. So the purpose of Galway being there isn't as important as it should have been. No Canning, no confidence, no superstar. Galway are not in the same level as they are without Canning.
Burnout is, can be an excuse but other times it's clear. It has an impact on a lot of players, especially younger players who want to play all the time. I mean a few years agothe twins were playing non stop all the time with their club and county. It didn't really have much of an impact on them though I suppose, but then you've got the likes of Corcoran who retired early because of burn out. He was sick of it.
But the typical GAA though, they preach about burn out and all that jazz, but then when it comes to putting fixtures for the underage sides, it's a joke. The playersd that are most vulnerable to burn out are the young lads but none of that seems to matter when they are setting dates for the likes of the U21s matches. But that's another story all together.
Kilkenny are an excellent side, but would Cody be so succesfull in Munster then he is in Leinster with the way he plans the teams peak, I guess we'll never no.
And while Galway has levelled the field a small bit, the standards still aren't there in Leinster. Ya you could have Wexford going 100% giving absolutely everything in one qualifier game against Waterford, it's one game that they've been building for all season, if they were to play 5 times, I'd predict Waterford to win each time. The same can be said for the other Leinster teams, it's one thing for them to give one game in the qualifiers absolutely everything they have and maybe coming out with a result, but it's another to keep that consistancy there, and keep that level there, which they can't do.
Reillers are you suggesting that 5 games over what 3 months is too much for a team??? the amount of b#llshit that is talked about players being tired etc is ridiculous, if this was the case kilkenny would be dropping like flies to burnout due to their "legendary" high entencity training sessions.
Waterford had a break of two weeks i think it was to the limerick game, more than enough time to recover from 70 minutes running...jesus if youve ever competed at a high level in club hurling youll know that you can have matches every weekend for a period of two or three months without anyone speaking about tiredness. Its an absolute myth thats bandied about by defeated teams to get themselves off the hook. The simple fact is Waterford were beaten by Limerick who were the better team on the day. And Waterford were hammered by KK last year, i think nerves played a part but I think [insert munster team] would have had no chance against the KK team that year.
Also someone in an early post said that the reason KK is so good is because cody doesnt have to concentrate on teaching them the basic skills of the game...what a crock of sh#te. There is no intercounty team that needs basic skills training.
KK have just had great talent coming together at the same time, Like Offaly or Clare in the nineties, You are born with talent, you cant learn to be able to play like henry shefflin or eoin kelly im afraid. And at the moment KK have a serious crop of hurlers, it will pass and we will all be lamenting the fact and asking whats wrong with the marble county in a few years time.
Quote from: awfulynice on June 18, 2009, 08:27:08 AM
Reillers are you suggesting that 5 games over what 3 months is too much for a team??? the amount of b#llshit that is talked about players being tired etc is ridiculous, if this was the case kilkenny would be dropping like flies to burnout due to their "legendary" high entencity training sessions.
this would be my thinking too. That more games is actually better. Burnout is quite real but I really don't think it affects teams as a whole that much. Its more a personal thing and it moreso affects younger players and those players coming to the end of their careers. Teams are too willing to jump on this and use it as an excuse when it suits them. Kilkenny have had their share of replays too over the years. Its had no negative bearing on them. If Kilkenny won out in those years it was because they were good enough. If not, it was because they weren't good enough.
I can't figure out if the examples Reilliers provided actually backs up my original point moreso than not. The Limerick-Tipp trilogy, while exciting, was very very poor standardwise. It should never have reached a 3rd game and Tipp only have themselves to blame over that. The point being, it wouldn't have made much difference if Kilkenny had to go the route that the munster teams mentioned went, as more often than not, there would not have been replays. Kilkenny wouldn't have had too much bother with either Limerick or Tipp, given how bad both sides were at that stage of the championship. Waterford or Cork would have proved sterner opposition, but again, I could see it being settled with 1 or 2 games max.
Remember when Cork returned from their strike last year. Kilkenny offered to play the back match that was missed before the authorities stepped in and said it wouldn't permit it. That wasn't Kilkenny being nice. That was Kilkenny being selfish. They wanted the game. The attitude in Kilkenny is that more games is better. Yes, more games means a better chance of being knocked out somewhere along the line, but it also means having a better team when you're reaching the end of that line.
If anything, in my opinion, the ease which Kilkenny have won provincial titles over the past number of years is considered more of a hindrance than a help within the county. No one welcomes Galway to Leinster more than Kilkenny.
seafoid, tubridy doing the late late is a great thing.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 18, 2009, 09:31:48 AM
Quote from: awfulynice on June 18, 2009, 08:27:08 AM
Reillers are you suggesting that 5 games over what 3 months is too much for a team??? the amount of b#llshit that is talked about players being tired etc is ridiculous, if this was the case kilkenny would be dropping like flies to burnout due to their "legendary" high entencity training sessions.
this would be my thinking too. That more games is actually better. Burnout is quite real but I really don't think it affects teams as a whole that much. Its more a personal thing and it moreso affects younger players and those players coming to the end of their careers. Teams are too willing to jump on this and use it as an excuse when it suits them. Kilkenny have had their share of replays too over the years. Its had no negative bearing on them. If Kilkenny won out in those years it was because they were good enough. If not, it was because they weren't good enough.
I can't figure out if the examples Reilliers provided actually backs up my original point moreso than not. The Limerick-Tipp trilogy, while exciting, was very very poor standardwise. It should never have reached a 3rd game and Tipp only have themselves to blame over that. The point being, it wouldn't have made much difference if Kilkenny had to go the route that the munster teams mentioned went, as more often than not, there would not have been replays. Kilkenny wouldn't have had too much bother with either Limerick or Tipp, given how bad both sides were at that stage of the championship. Waterford or Cork would have proved sterner opposition, but again, I could see it being settled with 1 or 2 games max.
Remember when Cork returned from their strike last year. Kilkenny offered to play the back match that was missed before the authorities stepped in and said it wouldn't permit it. That wasn't Kilkenny being nice. That was Kilkenny being selfish. They wanted the game. The attitude in Kilkenny is that more games is better. Yes, more games means a better chance of being knocked out somewhere along the line, but it also means having a better team when you're reaching the end of that line.
If anything, in my opinion, the ease which Kilkenny have won provincial titles over the past number of years is considered more of a hindrance than a help within the county. No one welcomes Galway to Leinster more than Kilkenny.
seafoid, tubridy doing the late late is a great thing.
I can understand young players mainly in the 17 - 21 bracket getting burnout as the number of teams they can are elligable for.
In some cases it can be 6 or even 7 if a player is talented enough and in the right age bracket. For Example a few years ago a player from my club was in this situation
U-18 Club
U-18 County
Senior Schools
U-21 Club
U-21 County
Senior Club
Senior County
I dont think he was in the field twice for training as the demands on him were too much as he pretty much never had a free night. He played fantastic stuff for a year or two but by the time he was on his last year U21 he looked a bit jaded from previous years.
But if you are past the underage teams you will really only have your club and if youre lucky enough your county to train and play with so there isnt an issue
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 17, 2009, 04:18:22 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 17, 2009, 04:05:36 PM
But as much as some Leinster type try to say so, Munster is still much better then the level of teams in Leinster, and I think the fact that Galway were moved in there says a lot.
we'll have to agree to disagree on this then. On the evidence of this year's munster championship its very difficult to put forward an argument backing this up.
And as for Galway, I think its no secret that a lot of the tweaking thats been done to the hurling championship since 1997 has been firmly with Galway in mind. They'd have been in Leinster long before now were it not for some resistance within the county. Leinster was the logical place for them to go. But it wasn't because of Leinster's problems. It just made sense all-round.
Jaaz, BT, the tweaking done in '97 most certainly didn't suit Galway above anyone; ourselves and Antrim were still not guaranteed 2 bites at the cherry back then. It suited KK down to a tee when they could regroup and beat us in Thurles that year. (Cyril totally losing the plot on the sideline didn't help either. )
Quote from: mouview on June 18, 2009, 11:02:18 AM
Jaaz, BT, the tweaking done in '97 most certainly didn't suit Galway above anyone; ourselves and Antrim were still not guaranteed 2 bites at the cherry back then. It suited KK down to a tee when they could regroup and beat us in Thurles that year. (Cyril totally losing the plot on the sideline didn't help either. )
ha ha. Nor putting Nigel Shaugnessey on DJ.
'97 was one quare year, thats for sure.
Jaysus, when I think about it. Adrian Ronan in goals. Galway up by a cricket score. Then what happened?
Finally Vinnie Maher was switched onto DJ and quietened him a bit. Galway playing into the breeze persisted with a 3-man FF line when it could be seen from Eyre Square that Joe Cooney should have been brought to midfield as a third man to close down that sector a bit and deliver quality ball. A youthful Eugene Cloonan's inability to get anything out of (Willie?) O Connor was more than matched by Kevin Borderick who was outstanding. Galway had a dream team of selectors that day including Steve Mahon and PJ Molloy and they still failed utterly to make a couple of simple changes that would have won a well-winnable game. I could have happily strangled Joe McDonagh and Phelim Murphy that day for voting for the back-door aka greed-is-good rule.
Quote from: mouview on June 18, 2009, 02:52:38 PM
A youthful Eugene Cloonan's inability to get anything out of (Willie?) O Connor
It was Eddie. I remember Cloonan having him in a headlock at one stage.
and that was his senior championship debut for Galway too if memory serves.
Looks like Joe Canning is out.
Galway Team V Kilkenny
1 Colm Callanan
2 Damien Joyce
3 Shane Kavanagh
4 Ollie Canning
5 Fergal Moore
6 John Lee
7 Adrian Cullinane
8 Eoin Lynch
9 Kevin Hynes
10 Aongus Callanan
11 Cyril Donnellan
12 Andy Smith
13 Damien Hayes
14 Joe Canning
15 Niall Healy
Kilkenny
P.J. Ryan
Michael Kavanagh
J.J. Delaney
Jackie Tyrrell
Tommy Walsh
John Tennyson
John Dalton
Michael Fennelly
Michael Rice
Henry Shefflin
Martin Comerford
Eoin Larkin
Eddie Brennan
Richie Power
Aidan Fogarty
Good luck Galway. I can see it being a cracker of a game if the Galway team is ready and prepared for whatever KK throw at them. If not, it could be a shambles. It's bound to be televised after the Mayo v Ros game or is it?
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on June 18, 2009, 10:22:02 PM
Galway Team V Kilkenny
1 Colm Callanan
2 Damien Joyce
3 Shane Kavanagh
4 Ollie Canning
5 Fergal Moore
6 John Lee
7 Adrian Cullinane
8 Eoin Lynch
9 Kevin Hynes
10 Aongus Callanan
11 Cyril Donnellan
12 Andy Smith
13 Damien Hayes
14 Joe Canning
15 Niall Healy
That team won't do it I'm afraid. Where are Farragher and Iarla Tannian. the half forward line will be ate.
Tannian is out for the year with a cruciate injury I believe.
Iarla Tannian is soft,he never gets stuck in.maybe gerry farragher come into team.NO IARLA TANNIAN.NO LOSS WHATSOEVER
The kilkenny forward division isn't understrength anyway but they do feed off a very healthy supply of ball and if the Galway forwards can put enough pressure on them then who knows. Big games needed from Lee and especially Kavanagh as the cats will go for goals to knock the heart out of Galway as early as possible. Canning the elder, Joyce and Moore have all shown on different days to be up to the task, they just need to ensure that they all bring their 'A' game on saturday.
the cats half back line don't look overly weak either even with hogan missing and Delaney sent to the edge of the square
This game will hinge on who wins the midfield battle and can get enough ball into their respective forwards and you really can't look past the cats but hopefully Galway can at least make a game of it to kickstart the AI championship and put a bit of interest into it.
Love to see Galway do it but later in the year rather than this weekend.
Kilkenny's biggest worry has to be the full-back line. Specifically the lack of pace in the corners (considering who they'll be marking) and Delaney at full-back. The Delaney at 3 experiment has been tried on and off for years and in my view its never looked like working. A better plan for covering Hickey's absence would have been Hogan at 3 and Tennyson at 6 but thats a non-runner now with Hogan out also. Delaney struggled against a limited hurler like Webster in the league final so Canning could do a lot of damage here if hes right and he gets a good supply into him.
For Kilkenny they'll have to be cutting off the supply into that line out the field. But, looking at the lineups, I think thats quite doable. KK's midfield is a little lightweight overall in the sense that I can't see either Rice or Fennelly anchoring that sector the way Cha does. Both like to roam and both are more naturally inclined to be attack-minded and hence move forward more than back. It depends what Galway have to offer here.
Up front Kilkenny do look formidable. But, Shefflin was very poor in the league final. Larkin has yet to catch fire this year. Power has not played at this level for months through injury (even though he was shaping up to have his best year yet before then). Eddie, Gorta and Taggy are fine players but all are prone to off-days too, especially early on in the year.
I don't agree that Kilkenny will go for goals to kill off the game early. They haven't adopted that game plan in years. Its very much a 'take your points, goals will come' mindset they've developed.
For Galway, the spine of their defense has to have a question mark over it. Kavanagh I've never been that convinced by. Lee is a fine player, but how will he be after his absence?
Kilkenny are favourites for this game for sure, but its not a huge leap to imagine a Galway victory either. I'd imagine they'll be fairly up for it (though nervous at the same time). Kilkenny less so on both fronts. And Kilkenny have struggled to get out of second gear this early on in the year for a long time now. It all makes for a potentially intriguing tie.
Is Chunky Hayes injured? Thought he would be no. 11.
But this Galway full forward line could do srious damage against any team if they enough ball. Galway at 4/1 on betfair could be worth a small (very small) bet
Quote from: mckieran on June 19, 2009, 10:11:16 AM
Is Chunky Hayes injured? Thought he would be no. 11.
But this Galway full forward line could do srious damage against any team if they enough ball. Galway at 4/1 on betfair could be worth a small (very small) bet
I thought he got the line against Laois and hence is out of this game
Quote from: johnneycool on June 19, 2009, 10:12:39 AM
Quote from: mckieran on June 19, 2009, 10:11:16 AM
Is Chunky Hayes injured? Thought he would be no. 11.
But this Galway full forward line could do srious damage against any team if they enough ball. Galway at 4/1 on betfair could be worth a small (very small) bet
I thought he got the line against Laois and hence is out of this game
Chunky is suspended for this game as he got a straight red against Laois.
QuoteChunky is suspended for this game as he got a straight red against Laois.
Aah yes, forgot about that. He is actually quite a loss, seemed to be going fairly well.
Kilkenny are awesome, we all know that but looking at that team, I think a lot of them were on the all-ireand team in '07. You just have to wonder how long their hunger can last...
I may be living in cloud cuckoo land but I really feel Galway could take them tomorrow
Quote from: mckieran on June 19, 2009, 07:45:41 PM
QuoteChunky is suspended for this game as he got a straight red against Laois.
Aah yes, forgot about that. He is actually quite a loss, seemed to be going fairly well.
Kilkenny are awesome, we all know that but looking at that team, I think a lot of them were on the all-ireand team in '07. You just have to wonder how long their hunger can last...
I may be living in cloud cuckoo land but I really feel Galway could take them tomorrow
It'll either be a classic, and Galway might win it, (or Kilkenny might steal it in the last few seconds) or it'll be very one sided and Galway being put in the Leinster Championship will be have seen as a waste of time. I hope it's the first one.
KK have been going since 07, true, and the hunger has to die out at some stage, and legs will get heavy, not even Cody can prevent time from kicking in.
Quote from: Reillers on June 19, 2009, 10:36:48 PM
Quote from: mckieran on June 19, 2009, 07:45:41 PM
QuoteChunky is suspended for this game as he got a straight red against Laois.
Aah yes, forgot about that. He is actually quite a loss, seemed to be going fairly well.
Kilkenny are awesome, we all know that but looking at that team, I think a lot of them were on the all-ireand team in '07. You just have to wonder how long their hunger can last...
I may be living in cloud cuckoo land but I really feel Galway could take them tomorrow
It'll either be a classic, and Galway might win it, (or Kilkenny might steal it in the last few seconds) or it'll be very one sided and Galway being put in the Leinster Championship will be have seen as a waste of time. I hope it's the first one.
KK have been going since 07, true, and the hunger has to die out at some stage, and legs will get heavy, not even Cody can prevent time from kicking in.
Call it so Reillers - don't sit on the fence - I'm going for KK by six
no major weather problems for tomorrow night.
Galway will spring a surprise. i fancy them to win by 3 points, should be a cracker. will be a hard hitting first half and will settle down land Canning will play the full game and be the difference
I'm going to this tomorrow evening,I can't see anything only a Super Cats win to be honest
I'm guessing Kilkenny by 5 points or more
Again, can't wait for this one - Will Galway's dismal enough displays in the league suck KK and Cody into a sense that this should be an easy one ??.
Galway have ambushed them before.
Great goal from Canning. JJ Delaney thought about having a swipe across him, Noel Hickey wouldn't have hesitated and thought about it! ;)
Good game so far but Galways defending at times is shocking. KKs Walsh bound to be on his last warning
where u watchin game carmen???
Here
http://www.justin.tv/sportstime (http://www.justin.tv/sportstime)
thanks carmen,can we go 4 few long necks 2moro for old times sake:p
See what the weather is like :)
It says 2-10 Galway to 2-08 KK on aertel. The web match is island of ireland only. I suppose the other rights belong
to Setanta's creditors.
Fair play to Galway so far.
C'mon Galway 3-11 to 2-10 !
Maybe post Setanta RTÉ will cop on and allow these vital parts of the national
heritage to be watched thar saile.
3 goals against KK is very juicy.
Ger Canning "He's a good honest hard working player"
If you are a forward, that translates into can't shoot for shite!!!
I hope the Roscommon football team have been sat down and made watch this game to see what it takes in Championship!
Level some finish in store. KK seem to be getting the scores that bit easier.
Galway falling off . Legs look to be gone.
Galway down to 14. Can't see a way back now.
Destroyed them in last ten minutes.
Galway lost their composure there.
Kilkenny were there for the taking.
Lots of silly things cost them, bad short puckouts, handpasses to no one, silly fouls and Murray's wild pull.
They get very little quality ball into Joe Canning and probably should have brought him out the field well before the end.
With so many Kilkenny defenders on yellow cards they should have run at them more inside the '45 and drawn fouls.
Kilkenny's defending against the runner was poor and there could be a lack of pace in their backline worth exploiting.
What you don't do is lob aimless ball on the Kilkenny backs where they can use their strength and repertoire of dark arts under the dropping ball.
A few of Galway's passengers didn't pay their fares though.
Who was supposed to be marking Eoin Larkin when he hit a string of points in succession?
Now that was a serious game of hurling there. The cats do sail close to the wind sometimes, Eddie Brennan and Tommy Walsh were both very close to second yellows. Ritchie Murrays red was fully deserved desperate stroke minimum three months. JJ is not a full back and struggled all game with Canning although he is not the first full back to struggle with him. Galway did well around the middle of the field and the tackling of the entire Galway team was ferocious. Derek Lyng started to pick up some handy balls when he came on and made a difference as he used the ball superbly. Shefflin was good all through for the cats and Eoin larkin was superb in the second half, Aidan fogarty took some nice points too.
Overall KK will be glad to have pulled through a tight one without four influential players, Galway when they reflect on it will know that if they play like that against most sides they will win and win well. Still a few problems to sort out for Galway but not too many. That match was by some distance the most intense match in the championship so far.
Disappointing result because we undoubtably had Kilkenny on the rack for long periods but they showed the composure of champions during the final 15 minutes when most teams would have panicked. Their shooting during that closing period was exceptional. They were putting points over from all angles. Eoin Larkin especially seemed to find space too easily to pop over scores. I'm loathe to criticise Galway's puck out strategy as it clearly worked for most of the game as Callanan was picking out Galway players on the wings and in midfield rather than launching high balls down onto the Kilkenny half-back line. However near the end when players were maybe a bit tired they were fumbling puck-outs which led to cheap Kilkenny scores. Galway themselves had a few chances to keep themselves ahead but hit some bad wides as Kilkenny were slowly pulling them back.
Joe Canning again was superb even carrying his stomach injury. Galway just couldn't quite get enough quality ball into him and maybe there was a case to bring him out the field for the final 10 minutes. Galway will need a few more scores from their other forwards though going forward.
All in all a disappointment but if Galway keep up that level of performance they could well be around at the business end of the Summer yet. Kilkenny march on. They will take some beating to say the least.
I don't pay many visits to the hurling board but wanted to say how much I enjoyed that game tonight. Mighty bit of skelping in it, it's great to see the Kilkenny cat finally having to uncurl from in front of the fire and stretch, yawn and extend itself before August! Ironic that Galway had the man sent off in the end, there was some borderline/second yellow stuff from Walsh and Brennan especially but Murray can have absolutely no complaints.
Galway missed a great chance IMO. They hurled with a fury and passion that was heartening to watch but to my mind, it wasn't always a controlled passion and fury. Handpasses to the invisible man, hurried offloads to nobody, a bad puckout after KK had just taken the lead to allow them go two ahead and some shanked shots at vital junctures (the type of which, and tougher, Kilkenny made no mistake with late in the game) - it's a harsh enough analysis given where they're coming from, who they were playing and how well they did overall, but these are the fine margins you have to be on the right side of if you're hoping to topple the Cats.
It should encourage Galway but the caveat is, which team has the capacity to improve the most from here and unfortunately for Galway and the other teams, I think it's Kilkenny with the personnel they have to come back. Still, it's shaping up to be a proper All-Ireland championship this year though, sure there miust be something strange afoot if it's even stirring us up in Cavan anyway.
As per Cavanmaniac, this is a rare trip for myself to the hurling thread. But twas a fine game. Galway were prob the better team for most of the match, but KK had the guile, the class, the je nais se quai that champions have. A great team that won without appearign to play exceptionally well (although they did)
So infuriating. Galway were so, so close. Kilkenny got incredibly lucky, Walsh deserved to go, but yet again a ref failed to give a Kilkenny man the red. Galway made stupid sloppy mistakes at times and that's what cost them. They weren't out classed, they weren't outplayed, Kilkenny didn't have a bad day. Galway came so close to, and should have really, beaten Kilkenny, minus a man, and with Canning who yet again was truely amazing, not fully fit.
Pity, really thought they'd go on and win. But Galway's legs went in the end and Kilkenny's experience held out.
Quote from: hardstation on June 21, 2009, 01:40:53 AM
What about this one Reillers?
Kilkenny were very good.
Is it that difficult to type?
A little slow are we, new to the typing? It was an incredibly good match, both sides were very good..you're point being?
Kilkenny are floocky,dirty and have the referees on their side.Tommy Walsh is the dirtiest player ever to play in the gaa,Barry Kelly worst referee ever.he might aswell have got off the kilkenny bus.gud signs for galway,keep it up and we'll be in Dublin in September.GAILLIMH ABU
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 02:03:11 AM
Quote from: hardstation on June 21, 2009, 01:40:53 AM
What about this one Reillers?
Kilkenny were very good.
Is it that difficult to type?
A little slow are we, new to the typing? It was an incredibly good match, both sides were very good..you're point being?
I think what Hardstation is getting at is you are loathe to give Kilkenny any credit
Quote from: Minder on June 21, 2009, 11:01:35 AM
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 02:03:11 AM
Quote from: hardstation on June 21, 2009, 01:40:53 AM
What about this one Reillers?
Kilkenny were very good.
Is it that difficult to type?
A little slow are we, new to the typing? It was an incredibly good match, both sides were very good..you're point being?
I think what Hardstation is getting at is you are loathe to give Kilkenny any credit
No he's just being is special little self, it was an excellent game I've said that. But they were fortunate that Galway let them get back into the game, and the fact that Galway had a man, and rightly so, sent off, while Walsh should have walked but yet again Kilkenny get away with it, the ref didn't have the bottle to send of a KK player, not many do. It's like they are exempt from the rules, all the time, and everyone knows it.
QuotePity, really thought they'd go on and win. But Galway's legs went in the end and Kilkenny's experience held out.
Maybe Galway need to go on strike for about five months and do a bit of personal training.
A few breaks either way and either team could have won this one, the short puck out being a mistake but that is ok for all us to say now, the lad was not the sole cause of the defeat. There was another short puck out that resulted directly in a point. The ref had a great game as far as I was concerned, again, he can't get everything right and was brave enough to flash the red card when others would have not taken the responsibility. As for giving Tommy Wals a red card????? He gave him a yellow one that he just about deserved and the shennanigans around the end line with Joe Canning is part and parcel of the game and credit to Canning for giving as good as he got. Hurling at its best, no moaning, no whining. Galway deserve great credit for a gutsy performance and firing up the championship. They will have another day and it could well be in Croker in September - against Waterford !!
Only thing I was not happy about with Canning was his gesture to the crowd/cameras after he scored the goal aka premiership player antics and while it was not that much OTT the problem is you could have other counties replicating it and pointing to adverts on their helmets and the next thing a strike and the whole championship is frigged.
Quote from: Reillers on Today at 02:03:11 AM
I think what Hardstation is getting at is you are loathe to give Kilkenny any credit
It's impossible to get credit anywhere these days anawez.
Hi Seafoid, how'r things in Morans of The Weir !
Be careful of Reillers there, he wasn't always a Galway supporter hoping they would beat the Cats. Here is a rant of his from a year ago - :)
QuoteI just had to listen to a half an hour of so call Galway hurling "fans" pipe on about how amazing this Galway team is, how it's better then any Cork team there ever was..ever, how Joe Canning is better then every Cork player on that team put together, that they're going to destroy Cork, that Cork only ever won AI's because they got lucky and that Sully is the biggest fattest useless piece of crap of a player they've seen and how Deane couldn't find the goal if he tried and maybe it would have been better if he never came back at all.
That was leaving a lot of of it, and it cleaned up.
So me saying that Canning is over hyped and overrated is a lot politer then what I really felt like saying.
Really like you get a complement here or there from the press, you play one or two good matches against shite teams and they think they're God's gift. I wanted to beat them yesterday but I pray to God we beat them now just to be able to go into work and f**k that in their cocky, arrogant, little faces.
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 11:43:06 AM
Quote from: Minder on June 21, 2009, 11:01:35 AM
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 02:03:11 AM
Quote from: hardstation on June 21, 2009, 01:40:53 AM
What about this one Reillers?
Kilkenny were very good.
Is it that difficult to type?
A little slow are we, new to the typing? It was an incredibly good match, both sides were very good..you're point being?
I think what Hardstation is getting at is you are loathe to give Kilkenny any credit
No he's just being is special little self, it was an excellent game I've said that. But they were fortunate that Galway let them get back into the game, and the fact that Galway had a man, and rightly so, sent off, while Walsh should have walked but yet again Kilkenny get away with it, the ref didn't have the bottle to send of a KK player, not many do. It's like they are exempt from the rules, all the time, and everyone knows it.
Yes Kilkenny are exempt fromt he rules and Cody only won any of his All Irelands due to the referees. That is a fair and accurate statement.
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on June 21, 2009, 12:36:24 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 11:43:06 AM
Quote from: Minder on June 21, 2009, 11:01:35 AM
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 02:03:11 AM
Quote from: hardstation on June 21, 2009, 01:40:53 AM
What about this one Reillers?
Kilkenny were very good.
Is it that difficult to type?
A little slow are we, new to the typing? It was an incredibly good match, both sides were very good..you're point being?
I think what Hardstation is getting at is you are loathe to give Kilkenny any credit
No he's just being is special little self, it was an excellent game I've said that. But they were fortunate that Galway let them get back into the game, and the fact that Galway had a man, and rightly so, sent off, while Walsh should have walked but yet again Kilkenny get away with it, the ref didn't have the bottle to send of a KK player, not many do. It's like they are exempt from the rules, all the time, and everyone knows it.
Yes Kilkenny are exempt fromt he rules and Cody only won any of his All Irelands due to the referees. That is a fair and accurate statement.
f**k sake, did I say that, no. Surprise surprise you've halfbrains putting words into my mouth..again.
They are the best team in the country by a mile and a half. But they get away with a lot from refs and everyone..(well most hurling people, with even with the slightest of knowledge of the game,) know that KK get away with a lot from refs.
Lets call a spade a spade, walsh was blessed to still be on the field, jees he got away with ridiculus tackles before he got booked then he fouls a lad bearing down on goal and the ref bottles it, He should of got sent off simple as that and all to often he gets away with, so expect more of the same from the one of Irelands best but dirtiest players the next day. I personnally think KK get away with there fair share aswell as reillers points out, I mean there tackling is intense but all to often the ref lets too much go in there favour and ydays game was a prime example, its not like the need any help. When a ref lets overly aggressive tackling go it hands a few points to KK, why is though on the other end they get frees a little easier. This pattern repeats itself year in year out and is the only negative in that KK team.
There were awesome aswell, the intensity Galway hit them with was out of this world and KK lived with it. God help anyone else. Just stunning. Although I thought the ref yday made them unbeatable. On the KK performance alone it would of been exceedingly hard to beat them yday but with the ref bottling it, it made it impossible especially against a team as good as KK.
Quote from: Bud Wiser on June 21, 2009, 12:04:52 PM
Hi Seafoid, how'r things in Morans of The Weir !
Be careful of Reillers there, he wasn't always a Galway supporter hoping they would beat the Cats. Here is a rant of his from a year ago - :)
QuoteI just had to listen to a half an hour of so call Galway hurling "fans" pipe on about how amazing this Galway team is, how it's better then any Cork team there ever was..ever, how Joe Canning is better then every Cork player on that team put together, that they're going to destroy Cork, that Cork only ever won AI's because they got lucky and that Sully is the biggest fattest useless piece of crap of a player they've seen and how Deane couldn't find the goal if he tried and maybe it would have been better if he never came back at all.
That was leaving a lot of of it, and it cleaned up.
So me saying that Canning is over hyped and overrated is a lot politer then what I really felt like saying.
Really like you get a complement here or there from the press, you play one or two good matches against shite teams and they think they're God's gift. I wanted to beat them yesterday but I pray to God we beat them now just to be able to go into work and f**k that in their cocky, arrogant, little faces.
Jesus Reillers you got the whole joe canning thing wrong in that quote! He destroyed cork in the championship last year and has destroyed KK in the championship this year...he is the real deal and if he continues in the same vein of form as last night id expect an all star and player of the year gong to be heading his way in september.
Quote from: awfulynice on June 21, 2009, 12:52:35 PM
Quote from: Bud Wiser on June 21, 2009, 12:04:52 PM
Hi Seafoid, how'r things in Morans of The Weir !
Be careful of Reillers there, he wasn't always a Galway supporter hoping they would beat the Cats. Here is a rant of his from a year ago - :)
QuoteI just had to listen to a half an hour of so call Galway hurling "fans" pipe on about how amazing this Galway team is, how it's better then any Cork team there ever was..ever, how Joe Canning is better then every Cork player on that team put together, that they're going to destroy Cork, that Cork only ever won AI's because they got lucky and that Sully is the biggest fattest useless piece of crap of a player they've seen and how Deane couldn't find the goal if he tried and maybe it would have been better if he never came back at all.
That was leaving a lot of of it, and it cleaned up.
So me saying that Canning is over hyped and overrated is a lot politer then what I really felt like saying.
Really like you get a complement here or there from the press, you play one or two good matches against shite teams and they think they're God's gift. I wanted to beat them yesterday but I pray to God we beat them now just to be able to go into work and f**k that in their cocky, arrogant, little faces.
Jesus Reillers you got the whole joe canning thing wrong in that quote! He destroyed cork in the championship last year and has destroyed KK in the championship this year...he is the real deal and if he continues in the same vein of form as last night id expect an all star and player of the year gong to be heading his way in september.
That was a year ago when I was incredibly pissed off, and my opinions changed since, I don't know why Bud wasted his time searching for it, clearly hasn't much else to do. Can't remember saying it but I'll take your word for it Bud, clearly you've a much better memory then me..and apprently nothing better to do either.
But now I'd be a great admirer of the lad, he's amazing, and while I think we should hold off and naming a day after him like some may think, but he's one serious player and the pressure he handles is ridiculous.
I mean the entrance fee alone is worth it just to watch him play. Saw him against Cork, and I think you can only appreciate how good he is when you see him doing what he does best up close with your own eyes. And like I said, he was worth the entrance fee.
And I think this sums him up perfectly.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/no-ordinary-joe-1698171.html
QuoteThere were awesome aswell, the intensity Galway hit them with was out of this world and KK lived with it. God help anyone else. Just stunning.
And there you have it in a nutshell. It was a cracking game of hurling and the word intensity is not wasted. This was hurling at its best yesterday and the ref played a major part in letting the game flow, it's not marbles or tennis we want. The skill level in yesterdays game was pure class from both teams, as a matter of fact I was praying for a draw at the end. Think of what the thousands who watched this game yesterday got in terms of value for money as opposed to what went on in McHale Park yesterday. The foul on the forward running through by Tommy Walsh was about as "dirty" as a child hitting his mams bum with a tennis raquet. I am at a loss as to where this "dirty hurlers" tag is coming from in regard to the Cat's all of a sudden. Three championship games ago they were the perfect team, the greatest team of all time, an example of how the game should be played, awesome, etc, etc, etc, and after the stood up to Fitzgeralds antics (and in particular Tommy Walsh) before a ball was struck in last years AIF they suddenly became cheaters. FFS !!?
Joe Canning, and in fact all the Galway lads yesterday gave it their best shot, they played like men and gave as good as they got in every area of the field. It was a tough game for both sides but as far as I am concerned it is the type of hurling I want to see. There is always Wimbledon or the 'Confederations Cup' or cricket but there is never anything like a good game of hurling which is what we got yesterday and the only pity was that one team had to loose. Criticising ref's or picking out players for special criticism and allegations is hard to swallow, particularly if the criticism is coming from a county man whose team have been on strike for six months.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 21, 2009, 12:50:39 PM
Lets call a spade a spade, walsh was blessed to still be on the field, jees he got away with ridiculus tackles before he got booked then he fouls a lad bearing down on goal and the ref bottles it, He should of got sent off simple as that and all to often he gets away with, so expect more of the same from the one of Irelands best but dirtiest players the next day. I personnally think KK get away with there fair share aswell as reillers points out, I mean there tackling is intense but all to often the ref lets too much go in there favour and ydays game was a prime example, its not like the need any help. When a ref lets overly aggressive tackling go it hands a few points to KK, why is though on the other end they get frees a little easier. This pattern repeats itself year in year out and is the only negative in that KK team.
There were awesome aswell, the intensity Galway hit them with was out of this world and KK lived with it. God help anyone else. Just stunning.
Agreed, not according to the Leinster lads above who seem to know feck all about hurling.
But the level of intensity that Galway had yesterday was insane and brilliant to watch. It was a real physical, passionate game. The fact is that they matched Kilkenny in a lot of areas and on another day if the breaks hadn't gone KK's way, Galway would have won it, and maybe with a few points to spare. Galway have a lot of potential and they are just a stunning team to watch at times.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 21, 2009, 12:50:39 PM
Lets call a spade a spade, walsh was blessed to still be on the field, jees he got away with ridiculus tackles before he got booked then he fouls a lad bearing down on goal and the ref bottles it, He should of got sent off simple as that and all to often he gets away with, so expect more of the same from the one of Irelands best but dirtiest players the next day. I personnally think KK get away with there fair share aswell as reillers points out, I mean there tackling is intense but all to often the ref lets too much go in there favour and ydays game was a prime example, its not like the need any help. When a ref lets overly aggressive tackling go it hands a few points to KK, why is though on the other end they get frees a little easier. This pattern repeats itself year in year out and is the only negative in that KK team.
There were awesome aswell, the intensity Galway hit them with was out of this world and KK lived with it. God help anyone else. Just stunning. Although I thought the ref yday made them unbeatable. On the KK performance alone it would of been exceedingly hard to beat them yday but with the ref bottling it, it made it impossible especially against a team as good as KK.
I dont understand your view here. If you are trying to say that Galway would have beaten KK yesterday because of the ref you are very much mistaken. I cant see where KK get any biase from refs, Hurling is an intensive agressive game, you are allowed to tackle agressively but fairly and this is what KK do. Sure there are some things the refs let go or dont see, but this will be without biase. Now perhaps you could make a claim that KK are better at concealing fouls and perhaps they are cuter at doing this. But to try and say they are a dirty team is unfair and unproven. They are pure class, they have 6 forwards that will put the ball over standing on the side line, no other team in the country has that. Their scoring to chances ratio is miles ahead of everyone else and this is as much a credit to their backs as it is to their forwards as they make teams work extremely hard for their scores.
QuoteAgreed, not according to the Leinster lads above who seem to know feck all about hurling.
Back to beating the old drum again I see.
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 01:06:35 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 21, 2009, 12:50:39 PM
Lets call a spade a spade, walsh was blessed to still be on the field, jees he got away with ridiculus tackles before he got booked then he fouls a lad bearing down on goal and the ref bottles it, He should of got sent off simple as that and all to often he gets away with, so expect more of the same from the one of Irelands best but dirtiest players the next day. I personnally think KK get away with there fair share aswell as reillers points out, I mean there tackling is intense but all to often the ref lets too much go in there favour and ydays game was a prime example, its not like the need any help. When a ref lets overly aggressive tackling go it hands a few points to KK, why is though on the other end they get frees a little easier. This pattern repeats itself year in year out and is the only negative in that KK team.
There were awesome aswell, the intensity Galway hit them with was out of this world and KK lived with it. God help anyone else. Just stunning.
Agreed, not according to the Leinster lads above who seem to know feck all about hurling.
But the level of intensity that Galway had yesterday was insane and brilliant to watch. It was a real physical, passionate game. The fact is that they matched Kilkenny in a lot of areas and on another day if the breaks hadn't gone KK's way, Galway would have won it, and maybe with a few points to spare. Galway have a lot of potential and they are just a stunning team to watch at times.
I gurantee you here and now reillers that had KK their full team yesterday they would have beaten galway by 7 - 8 points and will do so if they meet them again in the championship. KK just have too much for any team around at the moment. Missing vital players they showed the strenght of their squad and given them good championship experience. Galway played well, but to my mind that is their optimum..they cant really get any better and gave absolutely everything and still came up 4 points short, whereas KK can say we were missing 3 - 4 players and played badly for half an hour! If KK are missing the same players for the Leinster final I can see Wexford / Dublin giving them a right rattle aswell.
Reillers...can i ask have you / do you play hurling?? To what level??
Quote from: awfulynice on June 21, 2009, 01:15:52 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 01:06:35 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 21, 2009, 12:50:39 PM
Lets call a spade a spade, walsh was blessed to still be on the field, jees he got away with ridiculus tackles before he got booked then he fouls a lad bearing down on goal and the ref bottles it, He should of got sent off simple as that and all to often he gets away with, so expect more of the same from the one of Irelands best but dirtiest players the next day. I personnally think KK get away with there fair share aswell as reillers points out, I mean there tackling is intense but all to often the ref lets too much go in there favour and ydays game was a prime example, its not like the need any help. When a ref lets overly aggressive tackling go it hands a few points to KK, why is though on the other end they get frees a little easier. This pattern repeats itself year in year out and is the only negative in that KK team.
There were awesome aswell, the intensity Galway hit them with was out of this world and KK lived with it. God help anyone else. Just stunning.
Agreed, not according to the Leinster lads above who seem to know feck all about hurling.
But the level of intensity that Galway had yesterday was insane and brilliant to watch. It was a real physical, passionate game. The fact is that they matched Kilkenny in a lot of areas and on another day if the breaks hadn't gone KK's way, Galway would have won it, and maybe with a few points to spare. Galway have a lot of potential and they are just a stunning team to watch at times.
I gurantee you here and now reillers that had KK their full team yesterday they would have beaten galway by 7 - 8 points and will do so if they meet them again in the championship. KK just have too much for any team around at the moment. Missing vital players they showed the strenght of their squad and given them good championship experience. Galway played well, but to my mind that is their optimum..they cant really get any better and gave absolutely everything and still came up 4 points short, whereas KK can say we were missing 3 - 4 players and played badly for half an hour! If KK are missing the same players for the Leinster final I can see Wexford / Dublin giving them a right rattle aswell.
Reillers...can i ask have you / do you play hurling?? To what level??
I'm sure they would, but I was talking about yesterday. Not a couple weeks from now, not with different teams, yesterday. The game we just saw. And yesterday Galway matched Kilkenny all over the park. I could do the exact same as what you're doing by saying what if Galway had a fully fit Canning..etc. We'll never know. But YESTERDAY Galway matched Kilkenny and were unlucky, had a break or two gone their way, to not beat Kilkenny.
And not like it's any of your business or why I should justify myself to you, but yes of course I play (unlike I can only presume one or two above here) am very involved in the club and I even played minor...once..as a sub..in a trial game, I was amazing. ::) ::) DO you play at all yourself, more of a soccer lad, I'd say ya?
Quote from: awfulynice on June 21, 2009, 01:07:29 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 21, 2009, 12:50:39 PM
Lets call a spade a spade, walsh was blessed to still be on the field, jees he got away with ridiculus tackles before he got booked then he fouls a lad bearing down on goal and the ref bottles it, He should of got sent off simple as that and all to often he gets away with, so expect more of the same from the one of Irelands best but dirtiest players the next day. I personnally think KK get away with there fair share aswell as reillers points out, I mean there tackling is intense but all to often the ref lets too much go in there favour and ydays game was a prime example, its not like the need any help. When a ref lets overly aggressive tackling go it hands a few points to KK, why is though on the other end they get frees a little easier. This pattern repeats itself year in year out and is the only negative in that KK team.
There were awesome aswell, the intensity Galway hit them with was out of this world and KK lived with it. God help anyone else. Just stunning. Although I thought the ref yday made them unbeatable. On the KK performance alone it would of been exceedingly hard to beat them yday but with the ref bottling it, it made it impossible especially against a team as good as KK.
I dont understand your view here. If you are trying to say that Galway would have beaten KK yesterday because of the ref you are very much mistaken. I cant see where KK get any biase from refs, Hurling is an intensive agressive game, you are allowed to tackle agressively but fairly and this is what KK do. Sure there are some things the refs let go or dont see, but this will be without biase. Now perhaps you could make a claim that KK are better at concealing fouls and perhaps they are cuter at doing this. But to try and say they are a dirty team is unfair and unproven. They are pure class, they have 6 forwards that will put the ball over standing on the side line, no other team in the country has that. Their scoring to chances ratio is miles ahead of everyone else and this is as much a credit to their backs as it is to their forwards as they make teams work extremely hard for their scores.
Im not calling KK a dirty team so dont start insinuating stuff, I am however calling Walsh dirty, but as I said one of the best players ive ever seen aswell. He is beyond cynical in all aspects of tackling, he will not let the forward get past him at all costs no matter what he has to do. This is an obvious observation lads whether ye like it or not. He most certainly got bias from the ref yday, without doubt in my mind. Losing him would have handed victory to Galway IMO. A bold statement but in a tight game that yard gained would of turned it Galways way.
I will also say that KK not having a full team yday does worry me, Galway not having taken advantage of that, KK are supreme but the ref needs to have a pair of balls when it comes to walsh and overly agressive tackling, although him letting so much go added to the entertainment but there is a middle ground, yes let the game flow but not at the expense of fair play. Im not saying anyone cheated either just he bottled a major call and all to often handed KK easier won frees compared to Galway.
Quote from: awfulynice on June 21, 2009, 01:15:52 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 01:06:35 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 21, 2009, 12:50:39 PM
Lets call a spade a spade, walsh was blessed to still be on the field, jees he got away with ridiculus tackles before he got booked then he fouls a lad bearing down on goal and the ref bottles it, He should of got sent off simple as that and all to often he gets away with, so expect more of the same from the one of Irelands best but dirtiest players the next day. I personnally think KK get away with there fair share aswell as reillers points out, I mean there tackling is intense but all to often the ref lets too much go in there favour and ydays game was a prime example, its not like the need any help. When a ref lets overly aggressive tackling go it hands a few points to KK, why is though on the other end they get frees a little easier. This pattern repeats itself year in year out and is the only negative in that KK team.
There were awesome aswell, the intensity Galway hit them with was out of this world and KK lived with it. God help anyone else. Just stunning.
Agreed, not according to the Leinster lads above who seem to know feck all about hurling.
But the level of intensity that Galway had yesterday was insane and brilliant to watch. It was a real physical, passionate game. The fact is that they matched Kilkenny in a lot of areas and on another day if the breaks hadn't gone KK's way, Galway would have won it, and maybe with a few points to spare. Galway have a lot of potential and they are just a stunning team to watch at times.
I gurantee you here and now reillers that had KK their full team yesterday they would have beaten galway by 7 - 8 points and will do so if they meet them again in the championship. KK just have too much for any team around at the moment. Missing vital players they showed the strenght of their squad and given them good championship experience. Galway played well, but to my mind that is their optimum..they cant really get any better and gave absolutely everything and still came up 4 points short, whereas KK can say we were missing 3 - 4 players and played badly for half an hour! If KK are missing the same players for the Leinster final I can see Wexford / Dublin giving them a right rattle aswell.
Reillers...can i ask have you / do you play hurling?? To what level??
I would ask you to check Alex Fergusons and Arsene Wengers playing pedigree. It pisses me off when I see that type of statement. Only elite county player opinions count ::).
Leave Reillers alone and don't be asking him questions he can't answer or this thread will end up 500 pages long. The laugh value is good though when you consider that we in Leinster know nothing about hurling.
Here from the man that knows it all - After Kilkenny beat Cork in last years semi final:
QuoteI'm going to say Waterford, because I honestly believe that they can win it.
I think Waterford will want it more, I think despite all this 3 in a row talk, I think Waterford might just catch KK and all of us on the hop.
About Canning:
Quote[Canning is overrated, most of his work and his scores came from the dead ball on Saturday. Some of the decisions he made were costly. Trying to score from a sideline cut 65 out, someones head has gotten a little to big for him. He's a bloody good player but he's been hyped up to be better then sliced bread.
About yesterdays game in a nutshell I would say the following:
Great game of hurling.
Galway unfortunate man was (deservedly) sent off, took the gizz out of the game, some heads went down.
Galway's every single player gave 100%
Skill levels from both teams, including sideline cuts were of the highest level, especially getting the ball into the paw with the important first touch.
Ref allowed game to flow and if yellow cards were to be issued in strict accordance with the rules ten or fifteen could have been given to each side equally, maybe the umpires should have been given one.
Can't wait to see Galway back in the championship.
And finally, Cork were not playing yesterday.
Quote from: Bud Wiser on June 21, 2009, 01:33:41 PM
Leave Reillers alone and don't be asking him questions he can't answer or this thread will end up 500 pages long. The laugh value is good though when you consider that we in Leinster know nothing about hurling.
Here from the man that knows it all - After Kilkenny beat Cork in last years semi final:
QuoteI'm going to say Waterford, because I honestly believe that they can win it.
I think Waterford will want it more, I think despite all this 3 in a row talk, I think Waterford might just catch KK and all of us on the hop.
About Canning:
Quote[Canning is overrated, most of his work and his scores came from the dead ball on Saturday. Some of the decisions he made were costly. Trying to score from a sideline cut 65 out, someones head has gotten a little to big for him. He's a bloody good player but he's been hyped up to be better then sliced bread. /quote]
Aww Bud, I'm flattered, you've so little to do that you spend time going back pages and pages looking for stuff that's so old. Thanks, but you know..get a life. It's not healthy you know, to obsess with someone so much, go out, try and get a girl/lad whatever way it is you swing, don't know whether you are a guy or not, and certainly it's none of my business, just maybe get a hobby or pick up hurling or something. Because what you're doing..it's not healthy, and quiet frankly it's a little bit disturbing.
It says a lot about the some of teams playing Kilkenny if they let a 5 foot 7 hurler like Tommy Walsh bullies fellas 6 inches taller and 3 stone heavier. :)
If Kilkenny are gaining advantage by using timber, then give it back to them, but do it sensibly - a few sneaky chops and late pulls rather than loony swings, like what Richie Murray did.
While I certainly wouldn't blame losing the game on it some Kilkenny players certainly got the benefit of the doubt from Barry Kelly yesterday. Tommy Walsh pulled across Damien Hayes' hands in the first half and received yellow and barely a minute later he rugby tackled a Galway player running through on goal. Got away with a stern finger wag from Kelly. Eddie Brennan was carded in the first half and then committed two fouls within a couple of minutes of each other in the second half and then immediately mouthed off to Kelly who let him away with a stern look. Richie Murray makes a reckless pull and gets an immediate red. Fair enough in Murray's case but both Walsh and Brennan skated on thin ice for much of the game. While I don't like seeing players get the line Barry Kelly pretty much saved both of them yesterday. He was content to dish out yellows but didn't want to know about taking it any further. Well that is until Murray's daft overhead pull.
Really enjoyed the game, hurling at his best.
Would have great time for a lot of peoples opinions on hurling here that know a lot more about the game but have to disagree with Bud et al about Tommy Walsh. The ref bottled it. He should have got the line. Now I'm not a one for overly pernickity refs but fair is fair - he deserved the line yesterday. I wouldn't call him a dirty player at all, its a mans game and he doesn't step back.
Regardless, its a shot in the arm for the hurling championship. Galway need to realise they will have to improve considerably to contend in Aug/Sept. I think they can. KK will be awesome again but maybe can be caught, even with their injuries cleared up.
Had a great evening in Tullamore yesterday..
Great game of hurling
I had a great view of Canning's first goal,Jesus the guy is unreal even the Kilkenny boys with me all clapped the goal.
Always knew Kilkenny would come good in the end though but was hoping Galway would hold out.
Don't know why they kept persisting with the short puck outs,they must have gave away 4 points by doing it.
Tommy Walsh should defiantly have been sent off,even the great hurling legend Billy Fitzpatrick who was in our company said he should have got the line
I think walsh is up there with some of the most notorious hitmen to have played the game. If we played for a less recognised county he'd have been sent off several times now. Every single game he's leathering fellas and getting away with it.
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 01:22:06 PM
Quote from: awfulynice on June 21, 2009, 01:15:52 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 01:06:35 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 21, 2009, 12:50:39 PM
Lets call a spade a spade, walsh was blessed to still be on the field, jees he got away with ridiculus tackles before he got booked then he fouls a lad bearing down on goal and the ref bottles it, He should of got sent off simple as that and all to often he gets away with, so expect more of the same from the one of Irelands best but dirtiest players the next day. I personnally think KK get away with there fair share aswell as reillers points out, I mean there tackling is intense but all to often the ref lets too much go in there favour and ydays game was a prime example, its not like the need any help. When a ref lets overly aggressive tackling go it hands a few points to KK, why is though on the other end they get frees a little easier. This pattern repeats itself year in year out and is the only negative in that KK team.
There were awesome aswell, the intensity Galway hit them with was out of this world and KK lived with it. God help anyone else. Just stunning.
Agreed, not according to the Leinster lads above who seem to know feck all about hurling.
But the level of intensity that Galway had yesterday was insane and brilliant to watch. It was a real physical, passionate game. The fact is that they matched Kilkenny in a lot of areas and on another day if the breaks hadn't gone KK's way, Galway would have won it, and maybe with a few points to spare. Galway have a lot of potential and they are just a stunning team to watch at times.
I gurantee you here and now reillers that had KK their full team yesterday they would have beaten galway by 7 - 8 points and will do so if they meet them again in the championship. KK just have too much for any team around at the moment. Missing vital players they showed the strenght of their squad and given them good championship experience. Galway played well, but to my mind that is their optimum..they cant really get any better and gave absolutely everything and still came up 4 points short, whereas KK can say we were missing 3 - 4 players and played badly for half an hour! If KK are missing the same players for the Leinster final I can see Wexford / Dublin giving them a right rattle aswell.
Reillers...can i ask have you / do you play hurling?? To what level??
I'm sure they would, but I was talking about yesterday. Not a couple weeks from now, not with different teams, yesterday. The game we just saw. And yesterday Galway matched Kilkenny all over the park. I could do the exact same as what you're doing by saying what if Galway had a fully fit Canning..etc. We'll never know. But YESTERDAY Galway matched Kilkenny and were unlucky, had a break or two gone their way, to not beat Kilkenny.
And not like it's any of your business or why I should justify myself to you, but yes of course I play (unlike I can only presume one or two above here) am very involved in the club and I even played minor...once..as a sub..in a trial game, I was amazing. ::) ::) DO you play at all yourself, more of a soccer lad, I'd say ya?
No I play at a fairly good level, I have played intercounty level albeit at underage but got a cruiciate ligament injury at minor level which took me out of the game for 2 years. I wasnt asking you to justify yourself just seeing what angle you were viewing the game from, i wasnt sure if you were an armchair pundit or not.
People seem to think Tommy Walsh should have got the line but I think he skated on thin ice but didnt deserve to get the line imo.
The first incident where he got the yellow card probably was a little harsh, it is common practise at both intercounty and club level to leave the hurl in as the player is trying to catch the ball...cynical perhaps but id say 9/10 intercounty defenders do it so to hang one for the crimes of many isnt really fair is it! If they crack down on tommy walsh doing it they will have to crack down on everyone.
The second incident was the rugby tackle..and this should have been a yellow card no question, I think the dilemma the ref was faced with was he was after booking him for a challenge only 2 mins before, a challenge which was marginal as far as yellow cards go so he decided to give him the benefit of the doubt! I dont see a problem with this, you see this happening at all levels of the game and in fairness it is the referees discression, i dont think he took that view because it was tommy walsh, i honestly believe that if it was ollie canning up the far end of the field he would have taken the same view. So again you can call the referee leniant if you like but not biased!
On KK the point I was trying to make was, If Galway cant beat KK last night...im afraid I cant see them beating KK this year at all...or any other team for that matter..Tipp appear to be getting worse as the championship goes on and I dont think Cork or Waterford are up to KK's standard this year either
Great game this and how long before Galway take a Leinster crown, what they gave in that game was unreal - almost faultless, For Kilkenny to withstand it and then win says an awful lot, are they beatable, i Doubt it. heard a couple of debates on the radio abouit the death of ground hurling? What does this mean to those who know more?
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 21, 2009, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: awfulynice on June 21, 2009, 01:15:52 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 01:06:35 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 21, 2009, 12:50:39 PM
Lets call a spade a spade, walsh was blessed to still be on the field, jees he got away with ridiculus tackles before he got booked then he fouls a lad bearing down on goal and the ref bottles it, He should of got sent off simple as that and all to often he gets away with, so expect more of the same from the one of Irelands best but dirtiest players the next day. I personnally think KK get away with there fair share aswell as reillers points out, I mean there tackling is intense but all to often the ref lets too much go in there favour and ydays game was a prime example, its not like the need any help. When a ref lets overly aggressive tackling go it hands a few points to KK, why is though on the other end they get frees a little easier. This pattern repeats itself year in year out and is the only negative in that KK team.
There were awesome aswell, the intensity Galway hit them with was out of this world and KK lived with it. God help anyone else. Just stunning.
Agreed, not according to the Leinster lads above who seem to know feck all about hurling.
But the level of intensity that Galway had yesterday was insane and brilliant to watch. It was a real physical, passionate game. The fact is that they matched Kilkenny in a lot of areas and on another day if the breaks hadn't gone KK's way, Galway would have won it, and maybe with a few points to spare. Galway have a lot of potential and they are just a stunning team to watch at times.
I gurantee you here and now reillers that had KK their full team yesterday they would have beaten galway by 7 - 8 points and will do so if they meet them again in the championship. KK just have too much for any team around at the moment. Missing vital players they showed the strenght of their squad and given them good championship experience. Galway played well, but to my mind that is their optimum..they cant really get any better and gave absolutely everything and still came up 4 points short, whereas KK can say we were missing 3 - 4 players and played badly for half an hour! If KK are missing the same players for the Leinster final I can see Wexford / Dublin giving them a right rattle aswell.
Reillers...can i ask have you / do you play hurling?? To what level??
I would ask you to check Alex Fergusons and Arsene Wengers playing pedigree. It pisses me off when I see that type of statement. Only elite county player opinions count ::).
No I didnt say that, but it can give you greater insight if you have actually played the game!! Wth has Alex Ferguson & Arsene Wenger got to do with KK & Galway in the middle of june?? Totally different sport, which has proper coaching badges, player transfers etc to help you get better acquainted with the game..and I believe that both played proffesionally am i right??
Fergie played international for scotland, wenger was a lower leagues pro in france but like the man said this topic has nothing to with Galway v cats
I agree with awfully about Walsh. He could have got the second yellow, but I think it would have been harsh. For some to say it was a rugby tackle against a lad clean through on goal is pure nonsense. IMO the ref was right to give a final warning, and fair play to Walsh for keeping his slate clean for the rest of the game.
A fantastic and very enjoyable game it was. Composure under pressure was the big difference I thought in the last 10 minutes. And being able to spring a great played like Lyng from the bench late on is a great advantage to have.
Sorry to go on about this but what is a first yellow card if not a final warning? We were within a whisker of a situation where he would have walked for the first yellow alone. I don't think it was bias - the ref just bottled it.
I thought Lyng was carrying a fair bit of timber when he came on, how long has he been out? Still if we assume KK will find a way past Dublin Lyng has until August to get up to match sharpness. What about Cha or Hickey will they be back for the Leinster final?
Quote from: Hound on June 22, 2009, 09:46:40 AM
I agree with awfully about Walsh. He could have got the second yellow, but I think it would have been harsh. For some to say it was a rugby tackle against a lad clean through on goal is pure nonsense. IMO the ref was right to give a final warning, and fair play to Walsh for keeping his slate clean for the rest of the game.
A fantastic and very enjoyable game it was. Composure under pressure was the big difference I thought in the last 10 minutes. And being able to spring a great played like Lyng from the bench late on is a great advantage to have.
Can't agree- he could have broken hayes hand in the first half and the second was a professional foul with no attempt to play the ball. That is a yellow card offence on its own. Now I can put up the rulebook for anyone that is interested and the referee bottled it. I've no time for Tommy Walsh as a player anymore- he's a hitman plain and simple. And it galls me to hear people bracketing this guy as a great player. He could be if he concentrated on the ball- but it appears he simply has a licence to take lads out in every game and because he plays for the alleged aristocrats he gets away with it.
Really enjoyed the game and Galway gave it a right good rattle but this Kilkenny team find a way to win no matter what - great team. Walsh to my mind should have walked and lads who know their hurling an awful lot better than me have been saying that he is a hatchet man for a few years now.
Quote from: awfulynice on June 22, 2009, 09:13:07 AM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 21, 2009, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: awfulynice on June 21, 2009, 01:15:52 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 01:06:35 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 21, 2009, 12:50:39 PM
Lets call a spade a spade, walsh was blessed to still be on the field, jees he got away with ridiculus tackles before he got booked then he fouls a lad bearing down on goal and the ref bottles it, He should of got sent off simple as that and all to often he gets away with, so expect more of the same from the one of Irelands best but dirtiest players the next day. I personnally think KK get away with there fair share aswell as reillers points out, I mean there tackling is intense but all to often the ref lets too much go in there favour and ydays game was a prime example, its not like the need any help. When a ref lets overly aggressive tackling go it hands a few points to KK, why is though on the other end they get frees a little easier. This pattern repeats itself year in year out and is the only negative in that KK team.
There were awesome aswell, the intensity Galway hit them with was out of this world and KK lived with it. God help anyone else. Just stunning.
Agreed, not according to the Leinster lads above who seem to know feck all about hurling.
But the level of intensity that Galway had yesterday was insane and brilliant to watch. It was a real physical, passionate game. The fact is that they matched Kilkenny in a lot of areas and on another day if the breaks hadn't gone KK's way, Galway would have won it, and maybe with a few points to spare. Galway have a lot of potential and they are just a stunning team to watch at times.
I gurantee you here and now reillers that had KK their full team yesterday they would have beaten galway by 7 - 8 points and will do so if they meet them again in the championship. KK just have too much for any team around at the moment. Missing vital players they showed the strenght of their squad and given them good championship experience. Galway played well, but to my mind that is their optimum..they cant really get any better and gave absolutely everything and still came up 4 points short, whereas KK can say we were missing 3 - 4 players and played badly for half an hour! If KK are missing the same players for the Leinster final I can see Wexford / Dublin giving them a right rattle aswell.
Reillers...can i ask have you / do you play hurling?? To what level??
I would ask you to check Alex Fergusons and Arsene Wengers playing pedigree. It pisses me off when I see that type of statement. Only elite county player opinions count ::).
No I didnt say that, but it can give you greater insight if you have actually played the game!! Wth has Alex Ferguson & Arsene Wenger got to do with KK & Galway in the middle of june?? Totally different sport, which has proper coaching badges, player transfers etc to help you get better acquainted with the game..and I believe that both played proffesionally am i right??
Smart arse, you know what my point is, calling a lad out on his playing creditionals has nothing to with knowledge of the game, there are players better than me that havent a clue about tactics and what not, wenger and ferguson both have excelled 10 times more than there playing career suggested is my point, therefore it doesnt matter what level you played at in any sport, you either have a football brain or not. In my own circumstance things outside of my control curtailed my GAA career but I always had the ability to make it at intercounty.
If reillers played junior hurling all his life does that mean he knows less than a senior player or because a lad plays senior his opinion is more right?
Quote from: slow corner back on June 22, 2009, 10:03:27 AM
I thought Lyng was carrying a fair bit of timber when he came on, how long has he been out? Still if we assume KK will find a way past Dublin Lyng has until August to get up to match sharpness. What about Cha or Hickey will they be back for the Leinster final?
IMO the introduction of Lyng was the winning of the game for Kilkenny, fiercly underrated hurler who does the hard graft and very seldom wastes possession and even if he does seem to be carrying a bit of a midriff, there wasn't too many Galway hurlers running past him and i'd say Richie Murray was given instruction to lessen his influence on the game, only Richie went too far and tried to decapitate him. I'd hazard a guess that at least 4 or 5 points came from passes directly from Lyng.
As for Galway, they were going well but there was a period in the first half where they hit three bad wides on the trot which would have taken them 7 or so clear, giving Kilkenny that chink of light back into the game and with the goal preventable yet a bit fortuatous for Kilkenny kinda undid a lot of their good work.
The short puckouts worked for 80% of the game and in fairness to the keeper he hit maybe one bad one and another which I think Lee dropped, can't fault the keeper for that but the pundits were right, trying to run the ball through midfield wasn't the idea, but if you get the ball in early and turn that kilkenny half back line then you will get some joy which Galway did in the early stages of both halves but then resorted to sort when the pressure came on.
Should Walsh have got the line for two yellow's, possibly, but he has a knack of borderline decisions which to date have went his way and if the ref had sent him off he'd have been damned for doing so, ruing the game and all that, 'we want to see the best hurlers on the pitch' was a line i heard from a RTE pundit once, they're right but you can't go making exceptions for anyone if they transgress irrespecitive if they're the greatest hurler to draw breath. Overall i thought Kelly was fine and a damn sight better than the days he used to referee NHL Div2 games when he blew every farts end.
Good teams who've faith in their own ability don't panic and Kilkenny certainly don't panic but you could sense the relief from the players when they took the lead nearing the home straight, they've left it late in the nation league final and on saturday evening and I'd say Cody would prefer the old way of having the game sewn up by half time.
Galway are unlucky to draw their neighbours Clare in the next round as they too put up a spirited performance yesterday but i still fancy the tribesmen to go a stage further.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 22, 2009, 10:43:36 AM
Quote from: awfulynice on June 22, 2009, 09:13:07 AM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 21, 2009, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: awfulynice on June 21, 2009, 01:15:52 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 21, 2009, 01:06:35 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 21, 2009, 12:50:39 PM
Lets call a spade a spade, walsh was blessed to still be on the field, jees he got away with ridiculus tackles before he got booked then he fouls a lad bearing down on goal and the ref bottles it, He should of got sent off simple as that and all to often he gets away with, so expect more of the same from the one of Irelands best but dirtiest players the next day. I personnally think KK get away with there fair share aswell as reillers points out, I mean there tackling is intense but all to often the ref lets too much go in there favour and ydays game was a prime example, its not like the need any help. When a ref lets overly aggressive tackling go it hands a few points to KK, why is though on the other end they get frees a little easier. This pattern repeats itself year in year out and is the only negative in that KK team.
There were awesome aswell, the intensity Galway hit them with was out of this world and KK lived with it. God help anyone else. Just stunning.
Agreed, not according to the Leinster lads above who seem to know feck all about hurling.
But the level of intensity that Galway had yesterday was insane and brilliant to watch. It was a real physical, passionate game. The fact is that they matched Kilkenny in a lot of areas and on another day if the breaks hadn't gone KK's way, Galway would have won it, and maybe with a few points to spare. Galway have a lot of potential and they are just a stunning team to watch at times.
I gurantee you here and now reillers that had KK their full team yesterday they would have beaten galway by 7 - 8 points and will do so if they meet them again in the championship. KK just have too much for any team around at the moment. Missing vital players they showed the strenght of their squad and given them good championship experience. Galway played well, but to my mind that is their optimum..they cant really get any better and gave absolutely everything and still came up 4 points short, whereas KK can say we were missing 3 - 4 players and played badly for half an hour! If KK are missing the same players for the Leinster final I can see Wexford / Dublin giving them a right rattle aswell.
Reillers...can i ask have you / do you play hurling?? To what level??
I would ask you to check Alex Fergusons and Arsene Wengers playing pedigree. It pisses me off when I see that type of statement. Only elite county player opinions count ::).
No I didnt say that, but it can give you greater insight if you have actually played the game!! Wth has Alex Ferguson & Arsene Wenger got to do with KK & Galway in the middle of june?? Totally different sport, which has proper coaching badges, player transfers etc to help you get better acquainted with the game..and I believe that both played proffesionally am i right??
Smart arse, you know what my point is, calling a lad out on his playing creditionals has nothing to with knowledge of the game, there are players better than me that havent a clue about tactics and what not, wenger and ferguson both have excelled 10 times more than there playing career suggested is my point, therefore it doesnt matter what level you played at in any sport, you either have a football brain or not. In my own circumstance things outside of my control curtailed my GAA career but I always had the ability to make it at intercounty.
If reillers played junior hurling all his life does that mean he knows less than a senior player or because a lad plays senior his opinion is more right?
I wasnt being a smart arse at all, If you play at a certain level the chances are you would know more about that level. If you play at junior / intermediate or senior level you will know more about that level and style of hurling than another. It is hard for someone who hasnt picked up a hurl to call on whether something was dirty or not, for example the slap on damien hayes...was it intentional or a play for the ball that was badly timed...if you havent picked up a hurl and been in the same position yourself it is harder to make the call in my opinion. Also if you play a game the chances are you will have far more interest in it than someone who didnt.
JC I dont doubt Lyngs influence on the game, I posted straight after the match that i though he had used his possesion very well I was just suggesting that come August his influence will be greater. He is normally good for a couple of points in any match and I did not see him running forward too much with or without the ball which he normally does to pick off his scores.
Quote from: Bud Wiser on June 21, 2009, 01:06:27 PM
I am at a loss as to where this "dirty hurlers" tag is coming from in regard to the Cat's all of a sudden. Three championship games ago they were the perfect team, the greatest team of all time, an example of how the game should be played, awesome, etc, etc, etc, and after the stood up to Fitzgeralds antics (and in particular Tommy Walsh) before a ball was struck in last years AIF they suddenly became cheaters. FFS !!?
Good stuff Bud. People are way over the top when it comes to Kilkenny. Kilkenny are the furthest thing from a dirty team. They have one or 2 players who go out in every game who are not afraid to push the rules to their limit, and even occasionally cross the line, but maybe others should be taking a leaf out of this book instead of whingeing about it. The reaction to everything Tommy Walsh did on saturday from the Galway crowd around me was a joke. Walsh got what he deserved. Yellow. If he deserved more, he'd have gotten it. It wasn't a pull across Hayes. It was a slap. Yes, he made contact but what he did was very different from a lad who winds up and then hits a lad. Very different.
Its people scraping the barrell. The last possible thing people can try and knock Kilkenny with. Saying they're dirty. Whereas what they really are is a good, honest, hearts-on-sleeves hurling team. They hurl with passion and with abandon, unlike pretty much every other team in the country right now. Whoever called Tommy Walsh cynical is having a laugh. One thing about Tommy Walsh is that you always know what you get with him. He typifies the hearts-on-sleeves mentality. Everything that he does happens through play. Hes not one for sly, cynical digs off the ball. If you go in for a challenge with Walsh and end up getting hit, then its your own fault for not hitting him first, because thats pretty much what hes expecting every time he contests a ball.
To all the knockers - nice try. Kilkenny won this game playing well within themselves. I'd suggest Galway played within themselves too but I'd question their sideline. Thinking the way to solve whatever problems they had by introducing a sub, then replacing him, smacks of cluelessness on the part of management.
I didn't see the Murray incident clearly, but I was delighted. I was standing by a load of his clubmen, and the abuse they were doling out at Kilkenny was way over the top. Murray getting the line after 3 seconds fairly shut them up. When Lyng was coming on one of them started roaring that he was nothing but a 'dirty c*nt'. Derek Lyng dirty? Since when?
Galway underperformed in their forward department. Donnellan was excellent. So too, obviously, was Canning. The rest of them need to start playing as if Canning isn't there and chip in with a score or 2 of their own. Particularly the 2 corners. How long will Healy be persisted with? Has he not proved hes not good enough at this level? Yes, he got his goal, mostly due to calamitous and sloppy defending by Tennyson, but surely there are better options than him?
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 22, 2009, 12:38:08 PM
Quote from: Bud Wiser on June 21, 2009, 01:06:27 PM
I am at a loss as to where this "dirty hurlers" tag is coming from in regard to the Cat's all of a sudden. Three championship games ago they were the perfect team, the greatest team of all time, an example of how the game should be played, awesome, etc, etc, etc, and after the stood up to Fitzgeralds antics (and in particular Tommy Walsh) before a ball was struck in last years AIF they suddenly became cheaters. FFS !!?
Good stuff Bud. People are way over the top when it comes to Kilkenny. Kilkenny are the furthest thing from a dirty team. They have one or 2 players who go out in every game who are not afraid to push the rules to their limit, and even occasionally cross the line, but maybe others should be taking a leaf out of this book instead of whingeing about it. The reaction to everything Tommy Walsh did on saturday from the Galway crowd around me was a joke. Walsh got what he deserved. Yellow. If he deserved more, he'd have gotten it. It wasn't a pull across Hayes. It was a slap. Yes, he made contact but what he did was very different from a lad who winds up and then hits a lad. Very different.
Its people scraping the barrell. The last possible thing people can try and knock Kilkenny with. Saying they're dirty. Whereas what they really are is a good, honest, hearts-on-sleeves hurling team. They hurl with passion and with abandon, unlike pretty much every other team in the country right now. Whoever called Tommy Walsh cynical is having a laugh. One thing about Tommy Walsh is that you always know what you get with him. He typifies the hearts-on-sleeves mentality. Everything that he does happens through play. Hes not one for sly, cynical digs off the ball. If you go in for a challenge with Walsh and end up getting hit, then its your own fault for not hitting him first, because thats pretty much what hes expecting every time he contests a ball.
To all the knockers - nice try. Kilkenny won this game playing well within themselves. I'd suggest Galway played within themselves too but I'd question their sideline. Thinking the way to solve whatever problems they had by introducing a sub, then replacing him, smacks of cluelessness on the part of management.
I didn't see the Murray incident clearly, but I was delighted. I was standing by a load of his clubmen, and the abuse they were doling out at Kilkenny was way over the top. Murray getting the line after 3 seconds fairly shut them up. When Lyng was coming on one of them started roaring that he was nothing but a 'dirty c*nt'. Derek Lyng dirty? Since when?
Galway underperformed in their forward department. Donnellan was excellent. So too, obviously, was Canning. The rest of them need to start playing as if Canning isn't there and chip in with a score or 2 of their own. Particularly the 2 corners. How long will Healy be persisted with? Has he not proved hes not good enough at this level? Yes, he got his goal, mostly due to calamitous and sloppy defending by Tennyson, but surely there are better options than him?
Its your opinion and youre entitled to it but you're not an authority on the game as you might think you are. I've spoken to several current inter county players from some very prominent counties who I'm not going to name here. But they've told me in detail of the kilkenny tactics. And I was appalled. In that sense Walsh's current behaviour is no surprise and its tolerated by the snobbish element of hurling afficionados who think there is nothing to be cleaned up in the game. I see kids replicating the same carry on in juvenile hurling every single weekend.
The rulebook is there to be enforced - not used as some ancient relic to pander to the hurling snobs out there who think the game is above the rules of the Association.
Some of the Wexford "tackling" yesterday when the ball was at the other end of the field was interesting to say the least. And I 've nothing but praise for the wexford fans who congratulated us on the way out yesterday. But I thought some of their players went back to the John O Connor style of hurling at times yesterday.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 22, 2009, 12:38:08 PM
Quote from: Bud Wiser on June 21, 2009, 01:06:27 PM
I am at a loss as to where this "dirty hurlers" tag is coming from in regard to the Cat's all of a sudden. Three championship games ago they were the perfect team, the greatest team of all time, an example of how the game should be played, awesome, etc, etc, etc, and after the stood up to Fitzgeralds antics (and in particular Tommy Walsh) before a ball was struck in last years AIF they suddenly became cheaters. FFS !!?
Good stuff Bud. People are way over the top when it comes to Kilkenny. Kilkenny are the furthest thing from a dirty team. They have one or 2 players who go out in every game who are not afraid to push the rules to their limit, and even occasionally cross the line, but maybe others should be taking a leaf out of this book instead of whingeing about it. The reaction to everything Tommy Walsh did on saturday from the Galway crowd around me was a joke. Walsh got what he deserved. Yellow. If he deserved more, he'd have gotten it. It wasn't a pull across Hayes. It was a slap. Yes, he made contact but what he did was very different from a lad who winds up and then hits a lad. Very different.
Its people scraping the barrell. The last possible thing people can try and knock Kilkenny with. Saying they're dirty. Whereas what they really are is a good, honest, hearts-on-sleeves hurling team. They hurl with passion and with abandon, unlike pretty much every other team in the country right now. Whoever called Tommy Walsh cynical is having a laugh. One thing about Tommy Walsh is that you always know what you get with him. He typifies the hearts-on-sleeves mentality. Everything that he does happens through play. Hes not one for sly, cynical digs off the ball. If you go in for a challenge with Walsh and end up getting hit, then its your own fault for not hitting him first, because thats pretty much what hes expecting every time he contests a ball.
To all the knockers - nice try. Kilkenny won this game playing well within themselves. I'd suggest Galway played within themselves too but I'd question their sideline. Thinking the way to solve whatever problems they had by introducing a sub, then replacing him, smacks of cluelessness on the part of management.
I didn't see the Murray incident clearly, but I was delighted. I was standing by a load of his clubmen, and the abuse they were doling out at Kilkenny was way over the top. Murray getting the line after 3 seconds fairly shut them up. When Lyng was coming on one of them started roaring that he was nothing but a 'dirty c*nt'. Derek Lyng dirty? Since when?
Galway underperformed in their forward department. Donnellan was excellent. So too, obviously, was Canning. The rest of them need to start playing as if Canning isn't there and chip in with a score or 2 of their own. Particularly the 2 corners. How long will Healy be persisted with? Has he not proved hes not good enough at this level? Yes, he got his goal, mostly due to calamitous and sloppy defending by Tennyson, but surely there are better options than him?
BT7 - you know I've great respect for your opinions but you didn't address the second incident where a lot of us feel Walsh was extremely unlucky to avoid a second yellow card.
I would feel that saying KK are a dirty team is probably ott.
Murray was deservedly sent off and should nearly be dropped from the panel for stupidity.
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 22, 2009, 01:07:26 PM
BT7 - you know I've great respect for your opinions but you didn't address the second incident where a lot of us feel Walsh was extremely unlucky to avoid a second yellow card.
I would feel that saying KK are a dirty team is probably ott.
Murray was deservedly sent off and should nearly be dropped from the panel for stupidity.
Seanie, I meant more in terms of giving the ref his fair dues - that he would have dealt with it as he deemed appropriately. I haven't seen the incident on telly. I saw it at the game and it looked no more than a foul (maybe a black card) to me from where I stood, but maybe my view wasn't the best. But, given that Barry Kelly was sharp enough to spot JJ Delaney pulling down Joe Canning out of the corner of his eye from 50 yards away, I'm willing to go along with his judgement.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 22, 2009, 12:43:26 PM
Its your opinion and youre entitled to it but you're not an authority on the game as you might think you are. I've spoken to several current inter county players from some very prominent counties who I'm not going to name here.
did I ever claim to be an authority?
Is that comment not a little bit harsh? If not, please explain.
If anything I thought Galway were the team that were doing the roughing up. KK will play it whatever way you want it - to label them as a dirty team is denying their greatness and is slightly insulting.
You're talking about people calling kilkenny dirty as if they know nothing about the game. Tommy Walsh committed 2 yellow card offences at the very least and should have walked. He threw the hurl in the league final at someone and again wasn't ticked- when he should have walked under the league rules. What is it about this guy where he gets away with so much on the pitch.
Kilkenny have been sailing very close to the wind in the recent years but they are given a carte blanche by referees because they are seen like the Kerry footballers to be above the rules of the game. The likes of eddie Brennan and noel hickey are others who well able to dish out liberal amounts of timber and get away with it on a weekly basis. But if its a lesser county the players walk.
They're getting away with it because others counties are stupidly taking them on in the physical stakes instaed of trying to play around them. They are simply replicating the same amount of timber to kilkenny that kilkenny have been dishing out in the last few years. You can't rely on any journalist to criticise killkenny because they are too worried about their pension plan autobiographies.
To beat kilkenny you need to do something like Cork did in and come up with a different gameplan.
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 22, 2009, 01:07:26 PM
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 22, 2009, 12:38:08 PM
Quote from: Bud Wiser on June 21, 2009, 01:06:27 PM
I am at a loss as to where this "dirty hurlers" tag is coming from in regard to the Cat's all of a sudden. Three championship games ago they were the perfect team, the greatest team of all time, an example of how the game should be played, awesome, etc, etc, etc, and after the stood up to Fitzgeralds antics (and in particular Tommy Walsh) before a ball was struck in last years AIF they suddenly became cheaters. FFS !!?
Good stuff Bud. People are way over the top when it comes to Kilkenny. Kilkenny are the furthest thing from a dirty team. They have one or 2 players who go out in every game who are not afraid to push the rules to their limit, and even occasionally cross the line, but maybe others should be taking a leaf out of this book instead of whingeing about it. The reaction to everything Tommy Walsh did on saturday from the Galway crowd around me was a joke. Walsh got what he deserved. Yellow. If he deserved more, he'd have gotten it. It wasn't a pull across Hayes. It was a slap. Yes, he made contact but what he did was very different from a lad who winds up and then hits a lad. Very different.
Its people scraping the barrell. The last possible thing people can try and knock Kilkenny with. Saying they're dirty. Whereas what they really are is a good, honest, hearts-on-sleeves hurling team. They hurl with passion and with abandon, unlike pretty much every other team in the country right now. Whoever called Tommy Walsh cynical is having a laugh. One thing about Tommy Walsh is that you always know what you get with him. He typifies the hearts-on-sleeves mentality. Everything that he does happens through play. Hes not one for sly, cynical digs off the ball. If you go in for a challenge with Walsh and end up getting hit, then its your own fault for not hitting him first, because thats pretty much what hes expecting every time he contests a ball.
To all the knockers - nice try. Kilkenny won this game playing well within themselves. I'd suggest Galway played within themselves too but I'd question their sideline. Thinking the way to solve whatever problems they had by introducing a sub, then replacing him, smacks of cluelessness on the part of management.
I didn't see the Murray incident clearly, but I was delighted. I was standing by a load of his clubmen, and the abuse they were doling out at Kilkenny was way over the top. Murray getting the line after 3 seconds fairly shut them up. When Lyng was coming on one of them started roaring that he was nothing but a 'dirty c*nt'. Derek Lyng dirty? Since when?
Galway underperformed in their forward department. Donnellan was excellent. So too, obviously, was Canning. The rest of them need to start playing as if Canning isn't there and chip in with a score or 2 of their own. Particularly the 2 corners. How long will Healy be persisted with? Has he not proved hes not good enough at this level? Yes, he got his goal, mostly due to calamitous and sloppy defending by Tennyson, but surely there are better options than him?
BT7 - you know I've great respect for your opinions but you didn't address the second incident where a lot of us feel Walsh was extremely unlucky to avoid a second yellow card.
I would feel that saying KK are a dirty team is probably ott.
Murray was deservedly sent off and should nearly be dropped from the panel for stupidity.
KK arent a dirty team everyone agrees and Im not saying that but walsh is and yes he is cynical. He is great hurler but flawed. When a ref with a pair balls takes charge Walsh will let ye down by getting punished. Are yee from KK becuase you seem blinded?
Definition of cynical is fouling consistently especially when a player has the beating of you. Like giving away a free for a point instead of the forward getting away for a goal.
KK are not dirty.............there greatness is still intact and probably further enhanced by the intensity shown the last day, there timing of dominating and knowing when to hang in there was astounding. A privilege to watch. Absolutely but i stand by my comments on Walsh.
Give a dog a bad name .................... etc
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 22, 2009, 01:33:19 PM
Definition of cynical is fouling consistently especially when a player has the beating of you. Like giving away a free for a point instead of the forward getting away for a goal.
so its only when a player fouls one player? The player who has the beating of him? But not fouls all 'round him? So that means being cynical and being dirty are 2 different things? Would that not make them mutually exclusive? Like you can be one or the other but not both?
I just need to get my head around this definition of 'cynical'. Its important.
Thanks.
Walsh will be remembered as one of the all time greats. Despite how good this Kilkenny team are, how many will be remembered up there with the likes of Keher, Lory Meagher, etc? Only a couple. And Tommy Walsh is among that couple.
[/quote]
Good stuff Bud. People are way over the top when it comes to Kilkenny. Kilkenny are the furthest thing from a dirty team. They have one or 2 players who go out in every game who are not afraid to push the rules to their limit, and even occasionally cross the line, but maybe others should be taking a leaf out of this book instead of whingeing about it. The reaction to everything Tommy Walsh did on saturday from the Galway crowd around me was a joke. Walsh got what he deserved. Yellow. If he deserved more, he'd have gotten it. It wasn't a pull across Hayes. It was a slap. Yes, he made contact but what he did was very different from a lad who winds up and then hits a lad. Very different.
[/quote]
I agree that KK are not a dirty team but what Walsh did to Hayes on Sat evening was bad and he should have got a straight red for that...the worst thing any one can do to you in hurling is pull down on the hand deliberately ....the next foul deserved a yellow too, clumsy and late
I have nothing against Kilkenny or Tommy Walsh for that matter but he certainly deserved the line yesterday and he sails close to the wind so often he should be taking part in the Volvo ocean race. His talent as a player certainly isn't in question but his antics on the hurling field have soured a lot of non-Kilkenny people towards him and I don't think he'll be remembered very fondly once he retires from the game. Now this probably won't matter a jot to him as he'll have his All-Ireland's won and Kilkenny people will back him up no matter what but for a player as good as he is I don't think he has to resort to some of the things he does.
I didn't see the Murray incident clearly, but I was delighted. I was standing by a load of his clubmen, and the abuse they were doling out at Kilkenny was way over the top. Murray getting the line after 3 seconds fairly shut them up.
[/quote]
Murray got what he deserved. An act as spineless as it was stupid. He should know better at this stage of his career and to be honest I personally would think long and hard before handing him a maroon jersey again.
Tommy Walsh is an outstanding hurler and any county would love to have him in their side BUT he should have walked on Sat eve. He knew exactly what he was at when he gave hayes (who had the ball in his hand) a slap of the hurl on the hand. It was dirty and cynical. The "tackle" a few mins later was also cynical and also deserved a yellow.
Saying all that, KK well deserved their victory and showed why they are such an outstanding team. We seem to have improved but we need to bring the same intensity to Ennis in a few weeks time or else last Sat will be shown up to be nothing more than a "flash in the pan", and we have had too many of them over the past few years.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 22, 2009, 01:39:18 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 22, 2009, 01:33:19 PM
Definition of cynical is fouling consistently especially when a player has the beating of you. Like giving away a free for a point instead of the forward getting away for a goal.
so its only when a player fouls one player? The player who has the beating of him? But not fouls all 'round him? So that means being cynical and being dirty are 2 different things? Would that not make them mutually exclusive? Like you can be one or the other but not both?
I just need to get my head around this definition of 'cynical'. Its important.
Thanks.
Walsh will be remembered as one of the all time greats. Despite how good this Kilkenny team are, how many will be remembered up there with the likes of Keher, Lory Meagher, etc? Only a couple. And Tommy Walsh is among that couple.
As far as my interpetation goes.."cynical" fouling is fouling the player with no intent on getting the ball aka tommy walshs second foul
"persistant" fouling is fouling the same player that has the beating of you...and generally these two go hand in hand...or at least thats my interpetation of them anyway
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 22, 2009, 01:39:18 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 22, 2009, 01:33:19 PM
Definition of cynical is fouling consistently especially when a player has the beating of you. Like giving away a free for a point instead of the forward getting away for a goal.
so its only when a player fouls one player? The player who has the beating of him? But not fouls all 'round him? So that means being cynical and being dirty are 2 different things? Would that not make them mutually exclusive? Like you can be one or the other but not both?
I just need to get my head around this definition of 'cynical'. Its important.
Thanks.
Walsh will be remembered as one of the all time greats. Despite how good this Kilkenny team are, how many will be remembered up there with the likes of Keher, Lory Meagher, etc? Only a couple. And Tommy Walsh is among that couple.
Cynical to me is different to dirty, dangerous play is dirty to me (wild swing of hurley, not caring for opponents safety, wreckless etc...), cynical is fouling when knowing well what your at stopping a opponent when you have no chance of getting sliotar. Maybe hes more cynical than anything else when I think about, ya ignore the dirty comment, hes cynical IMO.
He is one of the greats of the game no doubt, i agree, i love watching him 90% of time but he pisses me off and I just wish he didnt have that part of his game.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 22, 2009, 01:39:18 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 22, 2009, 01:33:19 PM
Definition of cynical is fouling consistently especially when a player has the beating of you. Like giving away a free for a point instead of the forward getting away for a goal.
so its only when a player fouls one player? The player who has the beating of him? But not fouls all 'round him? So that means being cynical and being dirty are 2 different things? Would that not make them mutually exclusive? Like you can be one or the other but not both?
I just need to get my head around this definition of 'cynical'. Its important.
Thanks.
Walsh will be remembered as one of the all time greats. Despite how good this Kilkenny team are, how many will be remembered up there with the likes of Keher, Lory Meagher, etc? Only a couple. And Tommy Walsh is among that couple.
In your opinion he will be. But i'll be touting the likes of Joe Canning, Noel Mc grath and Henry in a different league to Tommy Walsh. Galway showed the template how to deal with Walsh in 2005 by putting Iarla Tannian on him. More is the pity Tannian wasn't available On Saturday because he'd have put manners on Walsh. One day soon Walsh will hit the wrong player. What goes around comes around.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 22, 2009, 02:25:09 PM
In your opinion he will be. But i'll be touting the likes of Joe Canning, Noel Mc grath and Henry in a different league to Tommy Walsh.
Forwards?
Cynical is what the Kilkenny forwards where doing on Saturday evening, deliberately fouling the man in order to stop the back giving a long relieving clearance up the field.
Dirty is trying to injure a player.
I'd have JJ ahead of him personally. Peerless as a wing back. I admire Walsh's skills but not the rest of his game.
Quote from: Stay goalside of your man on June 22, 2009, 02:52:02 PM
Cynical is what the Kilkenny forwards where doing on Saturday evening, deliberately fouling the man in order to stop the back giving a long relieving clearance up the field.
Dirty is trying to injure a player.
so chopping on someone's hand nowhere near the ball isn't dirty play?
Quote from: INDIANA on June 22, 2009, 02:56:10 PM
Quote from: Stay goalside of your man on June 22, 2009, 02:52:02 PM
Cynical is what the Kilkenny forwards where doing on Saturday evening, deliberately fouling the man in order to stop the back giving a long relieving clearance up the field.
Dirty is trying to injure a player.
so chopping on someone's hand nowhere near the ball isn't dirty play?
Of course it was dirty play. If you took the time to read my post I was on about the Kilkenny
forwards stopping the Galway backs from been able to give long relieving clearances.
Plenty of lively debate here on Tommy Walsh! I thought that the contentious foul was worth a 2nd yellow, to me it looked as if Kelly was going for the book then saw that it was a man he was only after booking two minutes ago and gave him a finger wagging instead. Walsh took a chance that he wouldn't get the 2nd yellow and prevented a goal, I don't think that any of this detracts from what is a phenomenal hurler, if he can get away with it all the better for Kilkenny, being able to know when to tactically or cynical foul for the betterment of the team is a skill in itself now in both codes. I'd have only been delighted if a Galway back had "took one for the team" and done the same to Shefflin about 5 seconds before Kilkenny get their 1st goal.
When Healy got the point to put 5 in it I though we had another 2005 style ambush on our hands but the response from Kilkenny was typical of them, unerring accuracy for ten points in a row and total belief that they would come through.
The two Cannings, Joyce (for the first 20 minutes before Fogarty came well into it, after that less so) and Donnellan were the pick for Galway, I thought some of the other players didn't play as well as they can but they were probably limited by the quality of the opposition in fairness.
The sideline made a major mistake in putting on Tierney; Kilkenny got 3 points as a direct result of fumbles/mistakes by him. As for Tierney's replacement, Murray can have no complaints with his red card, lunacy to let down a panel of 30 players like that, although I don't think it had a major impact on the result as I feel it was gone from Galway at the time he came on anyway. The puckout strategy in the 2nd half should have changed as soon as Kilkenny got their second score from a Galway mistake with this, 2 more soft scores would come as result of persisting with this tactic.
The bare facts are that Kilkenny were missing 3 huge players in Hickey, Hogan and Fitzpatrick. A major effort from Galway but we were still a good bit off them when it really mattered, going 20 minutes without scoring in the 2nd half is going to leave an uphill battle to win any match much less against one of the finest hurling teams ever to play. If Galway can get the heads right for what will be a big test down in Ennis then there's plenty to work on, there was some bad wides and aimless ball played by Galway at times on Saturday. The intensity which they brought especially at the start of both halves needs to be replicated in every match from now until whenever we bow out, if the team hurls with that application in every game then no supporter can complain.
I thought the atmosphere in O'Connor Park was good on Saturday night, it makes a big difference when a ground is nearly full for a match and for all the bleating from some prior to the game about the location, the game didn't sell out and if it was on as a double header in a half empty Croke Park with Dublin/Offaly it would have been half the atmosphere.
Before any major hurling aficionados shoot me down on any of this that's just the opinion of a man from the football end of Galway county, maybe it shows.
Would Noel Hickey have handled Joe any better on Saturday evening. In saying that I thought JJ did ok.
on the Walsh incident. if he booked him for the slap in the hand then he should have been sent off for bringing down the attacker.
the first yellow card is for striking an opponent in the hand. if he was going for the ball then every hurler in the land would be striking people on the hand cause they have the ball. so yellow card, and not harsh IMO the other one is another yellow card. if you haul someone to the ground in football or hurling its a yellow card.
if Barry didn't send him off cause it was so soon after the first yellow card then he has made a mistake.
i referee and play the game. so I'm well versed in the rules. (as a player though i constantly break them) there was loads of early pulling in the game and while Murray's was bad I've seen others getting a yellow.
Difficulty in refereeing (from my view) is that you have to be consistent if your the type who blows early for over carrying then you must do it for both teams throughout the game, if you blow for soft challenge then you have to do it the whole game for both teams, same as for players slabbering, ya have to dish out the same warnings.
My point being, there was some tackles being aloud and others not
Quote from: awfulynice on June 22, 2009, 08:44:10 AM
No I play at a fairly good level, I have played intercounty level albeit at underage but got a cruiciate ligament injury at minor level which took me out of the game for 2 years. I wasnt asking you to justify yourself just seeing what angle you were viewing the game from, i wasnt sure if you were an armchair pundit or not.
People seem to think Tommy Walsh should have got the line but I think he skated on thin ice but didnt deserve to get the line imo.
The first incident where he got the yellow card probably was a little harsh, it is common practise at both intercounty and club level to leave the hurl in as the player is trying to catch the ball...cynical perhaps but id say 9/10 intercounty defenders do it so to hang one for the crimes of many isnt really fair is it! If they crack down on tommy walsh doing it they will have to crack down on everyone.
The second incident was the rugby tackle..and this should have been a yellow card no question, I think the dilemma the ref was faced with was he was after booking him for a challenge only 2 mins before, a challenge which was marginal as far as yellow cards go so he decided to give him the benefit of the doubt! I dont see a problem with this, you see this happening at all levels of the game and in fairness it is the referees discression, i dont think he took that view because it was tommy walsh, i honestly believe that if it was ollie canning up the far end of the field he would have taken the same view. So again you can call the referee leniant if you like but not biased!
On KK the point I was trying to make was, If Galway cant beat KK last night...im afraid I cant see them beating KK this year at all...or any other team for that matter..Tipp appear to be getting worse as the championship goes on and I dont think Cork or Waterford are up to KK's standard this year either
First of all, I wonder if it's too late to change the, I was pretty average, to I got injured, reason for not playing a lot underage at IC level ;).
Secondly. On the Walsh incident, to make it clear, I think he should have went because I don't think he should be given any benefit of the doubt. He is a dirty player and ALWAYS gets away with it. No ref seems to have the bottle to send off a KK player.
Now if it was a question of another player doing what Walsh did, then I mightn't be so fast to call for the red card, depending on the player,and circumstances, the player should probably get the benefit of the doubt. But Walsh is a dirty player who gets away with it ALL the time, and should be punished. It seems at times that they are exempt from the rules at times.
The sad thing is, while I think if another player, who's not dirty, had done the same thing, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but ironically they'd probably end up getting a red. But Kelly is a "Kilkenny friendly" ref, and he didn't walk, and he should have.
I've seen refs send players off for a lot less. Barry Kelly himself, sent off Donal Og in the Galway game, for a lot less, nothing dirty unlike Walsh, nothing really intentional, even the lads back in the studio were saying how it looked like Kelly had been targeting him. I mean the first yellow was for nothing, and he had no problem facing that "dilemma" and giving another yellow (which was a yellow card), with a disgusting little grin on his face, satisfied with himself.
Funny he can be leniant at times can't he though.
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 06:33:25 PM
Quote from: awfulynice on June 22, 2009, 08:44:10 AM
No I play at a fairly good level, I have played intercounty level albeit at underage but got a cruiciate ligament injury at minor level which took me out of the game for 2 years. I wasnt asking you to justify yourself just seeing what angle you were viewing the game from, i wasnt sure if you were an armchair pundit or not.
People seem to think Tommy Walsh should have got the line but I think he skated on thin ice but didnt deserve to get the line imo.
The first incident where he got the yellow card probably was a little harsh, it is common practise at both intercounty and club level to leave the hurl in as the player is trying to catch the ball...cynical perhaps but id say 9/10 intercounty defenders do it so to hang one for the crimes of many isnt really fair is it! If they crack down on tommy walsh doing it they will have to crack down on everyone.
The second incident was the rugby tackle..and this should have been a yellow card no question, I think the dilemma the ref was faced with was he was after booking him for a challenge only 2 mins before, a challenge which was marginal as far as yellow cards go so he decided to give him the benefit of the doubt! I dont see a problem with this, you see this happening at all levels of the game and in fairness it is the referees discression, i dont think he took that view because it was tommy walsh, i honestly believe that if it was ollie canning up the far end of the field he would have taken the same view. So again you can call the referee leniant if you like but not biased!
On KK the point I was trying to make was, If Galway cant beat KK last night...im afraid I cant see them beating KK this year at all...or any other team for that matter..Tipp appear to be getting worse as the championship goes on and I dont think Cork or Waterford are up to KK's standard this year either
First of all, I wonder if it's too late to change the, I was pretty average, to I got injured, reason for not playing a lot underage at IC level ;).
Secondly. On the Walsh incident, to make it clear, I think he should have went because I don't think he should be given any benefit of the doubt. He is a dirty player and ALWAYS gets away with it. No ref seems to have the bottle to send off a KK player.
Now if it was a question of another player doing what Walsh did, then I mightn't be so fast to call for the red card, depending on the player, but depending on the circumstances, the player should probably get the benefit of the doubt. But Walsh is a dirty player who gets away with it ALL the time.
The sad thing is, while I think if another player who's not dirty, had done the same thing, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but ironically they'd probably end up getting a red. But Kelly is a "Kilkenny friendly" ref, and he didn't walk, and he should have.
I've seen refs send players off for a lot less. Barry Kelly himself, sent off Donal Og for a lot less, nothing dirty unlike Walsh, in the Galway game. One for nothing, and he had no problem facing that "dilemma" and giving another yellow, with a disgusting little grin on his face.
Funny he can be leniant at times can't he though.
wtf are you on about? one rule for dirty players, and one for the others?
what planet are you on?
as if Cork have never had a dirty player!
Quote from: glens73 on June 22, 2009, 06:41:03 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 06:33:25 PM
Quote from: awfulynice on June 22, 2009, 08:44:10 AM
No I play at a fairly good level, I have played intercounty level albeit at underage but got a cruiciate ligament injury at minor level which took me out of the game for 2 years. I wasnt asking you to justify yourself just seeing what angle you were viewing the game from, i wasnt sure if you were an armchair pundit or not.
People seem to think Tommy Walsh should have got the line but I think he skated on thin ice but didnt deserve to get the line imo.
The first incident where he got the yellow card probably was a little harsh, it is common practise at both intercounty and club level to leave the hurl in as the player is trying to catch the ball...cynical perhaps but id say 9/10 intercounty defenders do it so to hang one for the crimes of many isnt really fair is it! If they crack down on tommy walsh doing it they will have to crack down on everyone.
The second incident was the rugby tackle..and this should have been a yellow card no question, I think the dilemma the ref was faced with was he was after booking him for a challenge only 2 mins before, a challenge which was marginal as far as yellow cards go so he decided to give him the benefit of the doubt! I dont see a problem with this, you see this happening at all levels of the game and in fairness it is the referees discression, i dont think he took that view because it was tommy walsh, i honestly believe that if it was ollie canning up the far end of the field he would have taken the same view. So again you can call the referee leniant if you like but not biased!
On KK the point I was trying to make was, If Galway cant beat KK last night...im afraid I cant see them beating KK this year at all...or any other team for that matter..Tipp appear to be getting worse as the championship goes on and I dont think Cork or Waterford are up to KK's standard this year either
First of all, I wonder if it's too late to change the, I was pretty average, to I got injured, reason for not playing a lot underage at IC level ;).
Secondly. On the Walsh incident, to make it clear, I think he should have went because I don't think he should be given any benefit of the doubt. He is a dirty player and ALWAYS gets away with it. No ref seems to have the bottle to send off a KK player.
Now if it was a question of another player doing what Walsh did, then I mightn't be so fast to call for the red card, depending on the player, but depending on the circumstances, the player should probably get the benefit of the doubt. But Walsh is a dirty player who gets away with it ALL the time.
The sad thing is, while I think if another player who's not dirty, had done the same thing, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but ironically they'd probably end up getting a red. But Kelly is a "Kilkenny friendly" ref, and he didn't walk, and he should have.
I've seen refs send players off for a lot less. Barry Kelly himself, sent off Donal Og for a lot less, nothing dirty unlike Walsh, in the Galway game. One for nothing, and he had no problem facing that "dilemma" and giving another yellow, with a disgusting little grin on his face.
Funny he can be leniant at times can't he though.
wtf are you on about? one rule for dirty players, and one for the others?
what planet are you on?
as if Cork have never had a dirty player!
No, of course not. But refs are allowed use their head. If you see one player who isn't a dirty player do something that's borderline red card and then you see another one who's dirty like Walsh, who does things like it week in week out, who would you give the benefit of the doubt to? Some things just need to be stamped out, some players need to be dealt with. Walsh is very much one of them. But as it is, there does seem to be one rule for Kilkenny and one for everyone else.
Like Awfuly's pointed out, refs make decisions and can act leniently, especially if they don't believe an act was intentional. However at the moment, the leniance seems to be going to the wrong party.
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 06:44:06 PM
Quote from: glens73 on June 22, 2009, 06:41:03 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 06:33:25 PM
Quote from: awfulynice on June 22, 2009, 08:44:10 AM
No I play at a fairly good level, I have played intercounty level albeit at underage but got a cruiciate ligament injury at minor level which took me out of the game for 2 years. I wasnt asking you to justify yourself just seeing what angle you were viewing the game from, i wasnt sure if you were an armchair pundit or not.
People seem to think Tommy Walsh should have got the line but I think he skated on thin ice but didnt deserve to get the line imo.
The first incident where he got the yellow card probably was a little harsh, it is common practise at both intercounty and club level to leave the hurl in as the player is trying to catch the ball...cynical perhaps but id say 9/10 intercounty defenders do it so to hang one for the crimes of many isnt really fair is it! If they crack down on tommy walsh doing it they will have to crack down on everyone.
The second incident was the rugby tackle..and this should have been a yellow card no question, I think the dilemma the ref was faced with was he was after booking him for a challenge only 2 mins before, a challenge which was marginal as far as yellow cards go so he decided to give him the benefit of the doubt! I dont see a problem with this, you see this happening at all levels of the game and in fairness it is the referees discression, i dont think he took that view because it was tommy walsh, i honestly believe that if it was ollie canning up the far end of the field he would have taken the same view. So again you can call the referee leniant if you like but not biased!
On KK the point I was trying to make was, If Galway cant beat KK last night...im afraid I cant see them beating KK this year at all...or any other team for that matter..Tipp appear to be getting worse as the championship goes on and I dont think Cork or Waterford are up to KK's standard this year either
First of all, I wonder if it's too late to change the, I was pretty average, to I got injured, reason for not playing a lot underage at IC level ;).
Secondly. On the Walsh incident, to make it clear, I think he should have went because I don't think he should be given any benefit of the doubt. He is a dirty player and ALWAYS gets away with it. No ref seems to have the bottle to send off a KK player.
Now if it was a question of another player doing what Walsh did, then I mightn't be so fast to call for the red card, depending on the player, but depending on the circumstances, the player should probably get the benefit of the doubt. But Walsh is a dirty player who gets away with it ALL the time.
The sad thing is, while I think if another player who's not dirty, had done the same thing, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but ironically they'd probably end up getting a red. But Kelly is a "Kilkenny friendly" ref, and he didn't walk, and he should have.
I've seen refs send players off for a lot less. Barry Kelly himself, sent off Donal Og for a lot less, nothing dirty unlike Walsh, in the Galway game. One for nothing, and he had no problem facing that "dilemma" and giving another yellow, with a disgusting little grin on his face.
Funny he can be leniant at times can't he though.
wtf are you on about? one rule for dirty players, and one for the others?
what planet are you on?
as if Cork have never had a dirty player!
No, of course not. But refs are allowed use their head. If you see one player who isn't a dirty player do something that's borderline red card and then you see another one who's dirty like Walsh, who does things like it week in week out, who would you give the benefit of the doubt to? Some things just need to be stamped out, some players need to be dealt with. Walsh is very much one of them. But as it is, there does seem to be one rule for Kilkenny and one for everyone else.
Like Awfuly's pointed out, refs make decisions and can act leniently, especially if they don't believe an act was intentional. However at the moment, the leniance seems to be going to the wrong party.
You don't half spout some rubbish.
You couldn't admit Kilkenny are a great team. You are constantly having a go, whether it be how easy they get it in Leinster or how dirty they are and how the refs are easy on them. They are physical no question and they cross the line on occasion but I know which one of the two teams that won Liam in recent years that I'd have more respect for and they're not the colour of the devil!
Quote from: glens73 on June 22, 2009, 07:20:00 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 06:44:06 PM
Quote from: glens73 on June 22, 2009, 06:41:03 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 06:33:25 PM
Quote from: awfulynice on June 22, 2009, 08:44:10 AM
No I play at a fairly good level, I have played intercounty level albeit at underage but got a cruiciate ligament injury at minor level which took me out of the game for 2 years. I wasnt asking you to justify yourself just seeing what angle you were viewing the game from, i wasnt sure if you were an armchair pundit or not.
People seem to think Tommy Walsh should have got the line but I think he skated on thin ice but didnt deserve to get the line imo.
The first incident where he got the yellow card probably was a little harsh, it is common practise at both intercounty and club level to leave the hurl in as the player is trying to catch the ball...cynical perhaps but id say 9/10 intercounty defenders do it so to hang one for the crimes of many isnt really fair is it! If they crack down on tommy walsh doing it they will have to crack down on everyone.
The second incident was the rugby tackle..and this should have been a yellow card no question, I think the dilemma the ref was faced with was he was after booking him for a challenge only 2 mins before, a challenge which was marginal as far as yellow cards go so he decided to give him the benefit of the doubt! I dont see a problem with this, you see this happening at all levels of the game and in fairness it is the referees discression, i dont think he took that view because it was tommy walsh, i honestly believe that if it was ollie canning up the far end of the field he would have taken the same view. So again you can call the referee leniant if you like but not biased!
On KK the point I was trying to make was, If Galway cant beat KK last night...im afraid I cant see them beating KK this year at all...or any other team for that matter..Tipp appear to be getting worse as the championship goes on and I dont think Cork or Waterford are up to KK's standard this year either
First of all, I wonder if it's too late to change the, I was pretty average, to I got injured, reason for not playing a lot underage at IC level ;).
Secondly. On the Walsh incident, to make it clear, I think he should have went because I don't think he should be given any benefit of the doubt. He is a dirty player and ALWAYS gets away with it. No ref seems to have the bottle to send off a KK player.
Now if it was a question of another player doing what Walsh did, then I mightn't be so fast to call for the red card, depending on the player, but depending on the circumstances, the player should probably get the benefit of the doubt. But Walsh is a dirty player who gets away with it ALL the time.
The sad thing is, while I think if another player who's not dirty, had done the same thing, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but ironically they'd probably end up getting a red. But Kelly is a "Kilkenny friendly" ref, and he didn't walk, and he should have.
I've seen refs send players off for a lot less. Barry Kelly himself, sent off Donal Og for a lot less, nothing dirty unlike Walsh, in the Galway game. One for nothing, and he had no problem facing that "dilemma" and giving another yellow, with a disgusting little grin on his face.
Funny he can be leniant at times can't he though.
wtf are you on about? one rule for dirty players, and one for the others?
what planet are you on?
as if Cork have never had a dirty player!
No, of course not. But refs are allowed use their head. If you see one player who isn't a dirty player do something that's borderline red card and then you see another one who's dirty like Walsh, who does things like it week in week out, who would you give the benefit of the doubt to? Some things just need to be stamped out, some players need to be dealt with. Walsh is very much one of them. But as it is, there does seem to be one rule for Kilkenny and one for everyone else.
Like Awfuly's pointed out, refs make decisions and can act leniently, especially if they don't believe an act was intentional. However at the moment, the leniance seems to be going to the wrong party.
You don't half spout some rubbish.
You couldn't admit Kilkenny are a great team. You are constantly having a go, whether it be how easy they get it in Leinster or how dirty they are and how the refs are easy on them. They are physical no question and they cross the line on occasion but I know which one of the two teams that won Liam in recent years that I'd have more respect for and they're not the colour of the devil!
Bullshit, typical though. When couldn't I admit KK are a good team. Christ I've said it enough times, Kilkenny (for idiots like you clearly don't have much upstairs) are without question the best team in the country by a long long way. I didn't say Kilkenny were dirty. I said WALSH (because of your inability to read I feld I should put his name in capitals so it's easier for you to see.) was a dirty player, as have a few on here, surprisingly though I don't see you whining to them. Kilkenny are a physical team who tend to get away with a bit that is beyond the rules. It's the way the play the game, just like the Ulster football teams. Simple enough for ya or would you like me to break it down for you more? Finger puppets maybe?
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 07:47:40 PM
Quote from: glens73 on June 22, 2009, 07:20:00 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 06:44:06 PM
Quote from: glens73 on June 22, 2009, 06:41:03 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 06:33:25 PM
Quote from: awfulynice on June 22, 2009, 08:44:10 AM
No I play at a fairly good level, I have played intercounty level albeit at underage but got a cruiciate ligament injury at minor level which took me out of the game for 2 years. I wasnt asking you to justify yourself just seeing what angle you were viewing the game from, i wasnt sure if you were an armchair pundit or not.
People seem to think Tommy Walsh should have got the line but I think he skated on thin ice but didnt deserve to get the line imo.
The first incident where he got the yellow card probably was a little harsh, it is common practise at both intercounty and club level to leave the hurl in as the player is trying to catch the ball...cynical perhaps but id say 9/10 intercounty defenders do it so to hang one for the crimes of many isnt really fair is it! If they crack down on tommy walsh doing it they will have to crack down on everyone.
The second incident was the rugby tackle..and this should have been a yellow card no question, I think the dilemma the ref was faced with was he was after booking him for a challenge only 2 mins before, a challenge which was marginal as far as yellow cards go so he decided to give him the benefit of the doubt! I dont see a problem with this, you see this happening at all levels of the game and in fairness it is the referees discression, i dont think he took that view because it was tommy walsh, i honestly believe that if it was ollie canning up the far end of the field he would have taken the same view. So again you can call the referee leniant if you like but not biased!
On KK the point I was trying to make was, If Galway cant beat KK last night...im afraid I cant see them beating KK this year at all...or any other team for that matter..Tipp appear to be getting worse as the championship goes on and I dont think Cork or Waterford are up to KK's standard this year either
First of all, I wonder if it's too late to change the, I was pretty average, to I got injured, reason for not playing a lot underage at IC level ;).
Secondly. On the Walsh incident, to make it clear, I think he should have went because I don't think he should be given any benefit of the doubt. He is a dirty player and ALWAYS gets away with it. No ref seems to have the bottle to send off a KK player.
Now if it was a question of another player doing what Walsh did, then I mightn't be so fast to call for the red card, depending on the player, but depending on the circumstances, the player should probably get the benefit of the doubt. But Walsh is a dirty player who gets away with it ALL the time.
The sad thing is, while I think if another player who's not dirty, had done the same thing, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but ironically they'd probably end up getting a red. But Kelly is a "Kilkenny friendly" ref, and he didn't walk, and he should have.
I've seen refs send players off for a lot less. Barry Kelly himself, sent off Donal Og for a lot less, nothing dirty unlike Walsh, in the Galway game. One for nothing, and he had no problem facing that "dilemma" and giving another yellow, with a disgusting little grin on his face.
Funny he can be leniant at times can't he though.
wtf are you on about? one rule for dirty players, and one for the others?
what planet are you on?
as if Cork have never had a dirty player!
No, of course not. But refs are allowed use their head. If you see one player who isn't a dirty player do something that's borderline red card and then you see another one who's dirty like Walsh, who does things like it week in week out, who would you give the benefit of the doubt to? Some things just need to be stamped out, some players need to be dealt with. Walsh is very much one of them. But as it is, there does seem to be one rule for Kilkenny and one for everyone else.
Like Awfuly's pointed out, refs make decisions and can act leniently, especially if they don't believe an act was intentional. However at the moment, the leniance seems to be going to the wrong party.
You don't half spout some rubbish.
You couldn't admit Kilkenny are a great team. You are constantly having a go, whether it be how easy they get it in Leinster or how dirty they are and how the refs are easy on them. They are physical no question and they cross the line on occasion but I know which one of the two teams that won Liam in recent years that I'd have more respect for and they're not the colour of the devil!
Bullshit, typical though. When couldn't I admit KK are a good team. Christ I've said it enough times, Kilkenny (for idiots like you clearly don't have much upstairs) are without question the best team in the country by a long long way. I didn't say Kilkenny were dirty. I said WALSH (becauAse of your inability to read I feld I should put his name in capitals so it's easier for you to see.) was a dirty player, as have a few on here, surprisingly though I don't see you whining to them. Kilkenny are a physical team who tend to get away with a bit that is beyond the rules. It's the way the play the game, just like the Ulster football teams. Simple enough for ya or would you like me to break it down for you more? Finger puppets maybe?
I have no inability to read at all, I bet you couldn't list more than 2 or 3 specific incidents in which Walsh was dirty.
You're so easy to wind-up!! Not even 20 and you can't half tell.
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 06:33:25 PM
The sad thing is, while I think if another player, who's not dirty, had done the same thing, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but ironically they'd probably end up getting a red. But Kelly is a "Kilkenny friendly" ref, and he didn't walk, and he should have.
I've seen refs send players off for a lot less. Barry Kelly himself, sent off Donal Og in the Galway game, for a lot less, nothing dirty unlike Walsh, nothing really intentional, even the lads back in the studio were saying how it looked like Kelly had been targeting him. I mean the first yellow was for nothing, and he had no problem facing that "dilemma" and giving another yellow (which was a yellow card), with a disgusting little grin on his face, satisfied with himself.
Funny he can be leniant at times can't he though.
Well maybe next time Donal Og feels the need to come sprinting out of his goal to abuse the referee he'll think twice about it (well he probably won't actually since he feels the need to spout his random thoughts every chance he gets).
On the Walsh incidents I think Barry got the second one wrong, they were both yellow cards IMO and he should have walked. Barry is one of the best hurling refs out there and I'm sure he'll learn from this. Kilkenny and Walsh in particular push the rules right to the limit and they should have suffered here, was a great game apart from that and hopefully the Tribesmen can push on from here and give the Cats another rattle later on in the summer.
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 06:44:06 PM
Quote from: glens73 on June 22, 2009, 06:41:03 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 06:33:25 PM
Quote from: awfulynice on June 22, 2009, 08:44:10 AM
No I play at a fairly good level, I have played intercounty level albeit at underage but got a cruiciate ligament injury at minor level which took me out of the game for 2 years. I wasnt asking you to justify yourself just seeing what angle you were viewing the game from, i wasnt sure if you were an armchair pundit or not.
People seem to think Tommy Walsh should have got the line but I think he skated on thin ice but didnt deserve to get the line imo.
The first incident where he got the yellow card probably was a little harsh, it is common practise at both intercounty and club level to leave the hurl in as the player is trying to catch the ball...cynical perhaps but id say 9/10 intercounty defenders do it so to hang one for the crimes of many isnt really fair is it! If they crack down on tommy walsh doing it they will have to crack down on everyone.
The second incident was the rugby tackle..and this should have been a yellow card no question, I think the dilemma the ref was faced with was he was after booking him for a challenge only 2 mins before, a challenge which was marginal as far as yellow cards go so he decided to give him the benefit of the doubt! I dont see a problem with this, you see this happening at all levels of the game and in fairness it is the referees discression, i dont think he took that view because it was tommy walsh, i honestly believe that if it was ollie canning up the far end of the field he would have taken the same view. So again you can call the referee leniant if you like but not biased!
On KK the point I was trying to make was, If Galway cant beat KK last night...im afraid I cant see them beating KK this year at all...or any other team for that matter..Tipp appear to be getting worse as the championship goes on and I dont think Cork or Waterford are up to KK's standard this year either
First of all, I wonder if it's too late to change the, I was pretty average, to I got injured, reason for not playing a lot underage at IC level ;).
Secondly. On the Walsh incident, to make it clear, I think he should have went because I don't think he should be given any benefit of the doubt. He is a dirty player and ALWAYS gets away with it. No ref seems to have the bottle to send off a KK player.
Now if it was a question of another player doing what Walsh did, then I mightn't be so fast to call for the red card, depending on the player, but depending on the circumstances, the player should probably get the benefit of the doubt. But Walsh is a dirty player who gets away with it ALL the time.
The sad thing is, while I think if another player who's not dirty, had done the same thing, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but ironically they'd probably end up getting a red. But Kelly is a "Kilkenny friendly" ref, and he didn't walk, and he should have.
I've seen refs send players off for a lot less. Barry Kelly himself, sent off Donal Og for a lot less, nothing dirty unlike Walsh, in the Galway game. One for nothing, and he had no problem facing that "dilemma" and giving another yellow, with a disgusting little grin on his face.
Funny he can be leniant at times can't he though.
wtf are you on about? one rule for dirty players, and one for the others?
what planet are you on?
as if Cork have never had a dirty player!
No, of course not. But refs are allowed use their head. If you see one player who isn't a dirty player do something that's borderline red card and then you see another one who's dirty like Walsh, who does things like it week in week out, who would you give the benefit of the doubt to? Some things just need to be stamped out, some players need to be dealt with. Walsh is very much one of them. But as it is, there does seem to be one rule for Kilkenny and one for everyone else.
Like Awfuly's pointed out, refs make decisions and can act leniently, especially if they don't believe an act was intentional. However at the moment, the leniance seems to be going to the wrong party.
I think you had a lot of people agreeing with your point of view until this post.
What you are saying is that...because a player is dirty the refs should be harder on them?? I wouldnt agree with this at all. The refs cant let past incidents with the player cloud their judgement (unless it is in the same game and is in the context of persistant fouling etc).
This would not be fair to any player and would lead to bad decisions and uproar from the pundits.
As for the leniancy going to the wrong party...im not sure if I agree 100% with this either. There is a lot of cynical fouling going on at intercounty level at the moment...and to be honest the dirtiest hurlers in our club are our county players so that gives you an idea of the amount of it out there. I think that there is so little between the teams now adays physicaly that players are more and more likely to push the boundaries. When they come up against the best players they know that if they let eoin kelly etc get the ball into their hand its a guranteed score so they are more and more desperate to starve them of possesion in any way possible.
Quote from: awfulynice on June 23, 2009, 12:15:58 AM
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 06:44:06 PM
Quote from: glens73 on June 22, 2009, 06:41:03 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 22, 2009, 06:33:25 PM
Quote from: awfulynice on June 22, 2009, 08:44:10 AM
No I play at a fairly good level, I have played intercounty level albeit at underage but got a cruiciate ligament injury at minor level which took me out of the game for 2 years. I wasnt asking you to justify yourself just seeing what angle you were viewing the game from, i wasnt sure if you were an armchair pundit or not.
People seem to think Tommy Walsh should have got the line but I think he skated on thin ice but didnt deserve to get the line imo.
The first incident where he got the yellow card probably was a little harsh, it is common practise at both intercounty and club level to leave the hurl in as the player is trying to catch the ball...cynical perhaps but id say 9/10 intercounty defenders do it so to hang one for the crimes of many isnt really fair is it! If they crack down on tommy walsh doing it they will have to crack down on everyone.
The second incident was the rugby tackle..and this should have been a yellow card no question, I think the dilemma the ref was faced with was he was after booking him for a challenge only 2 mins before, a challenge which was marginal as far as yellow cards go so he decided to give him the benefit of the doubt! I dont see a problem with this, you see this happening at all levels of the game and in fairness it is the referees discression, i dont think he took that view because it was tommy walsh, i honestly believe that if it was ollie canning up the far end of the field he would have taken the same view. So again you can call the referee leniant if you like but not biased!
On KK the point I was trying to make was, If Galway cant beat KK last night...im afraid I cant see them beating KK this year at all...or any other team for that matter..Tipp appear to be getting worse as the championship goes on and I dont think Cork or Waterford are up to KK's standard this year either
First of all, I wonder if it's too late to change the, I was pretty average, to I got injured, reason for not playing a lot underage at IC level ;).
Secondly. On the Walsh incident, to make it clear, I think he should have went because I don't think he should be given any benefit of the doubt. He is a dirty player and ALWAYS gets away with it. No ref seems to have the bottle to send off a KK player.
Now if it was a question of another player doing what Walsh did, then I mightn't be so fast to call for the red card, depending on the player, but depending on the circumstances, the player should probably get the benefit of the doubt. But Walsh is a dirty player who gets away with it ALL the time.
The sad thing is, while I think if another player who's not dirty, had done the same thing, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but ironically they'd probably end up getting a red. But Kelly is a "Kilkenny friendly" ref, and he didn't walk, and he should have.
I've seen refs send players off for a lot less. Barry Kelly himself, sent off Donal Og for a lot less, nothing dirty unlike Walsh, in the Galway game. One for nothing, and he had no problem facing that "dilemma" and giving another yellow, with a disgusting little grin on his face.
Funny he can be leniant at times can't he though.
wtf are you on about? one rule for dirty players, and one for the others?
what planet are you on?
as if Cork have never had a dirty player!
No, of course not. But refs are allowed use their head. If you see one player who isn't a dirty player do something that's borderline red card and then you see another one who's dirty like Walsh, who does things like it week in week out, who would you give the benefit of the doubt to? Some things just need to be stamped out, some players need to be dealt with. Walsh is very much one of them. But as it is, there does seem to be one rule for Kilkenny and one for everyone else.
Like Awfuly's pointed out, refs make decisions and can act leniently, especially if they don't believe an act was intentional. However at the moment, the leniance seems to be going to the wrong party.
I think you had a lot of people agreeing with your point of view until this post.
What you are saying is that...because a player is dirty the refs should be harder on them?? I wouldnt agree with this at all. The refs cant let past incidents with the player cloud their judgement (unless it is in the same game and is in the context of persistant fouling etc).
This would not be fair to any player and would lead to bad decisions and uproar from the pundits.
As for the leniancy going to the wrong party...im not sure if I agree 100% with this either. There is a lot of cynical fouling going on at intercounty level at the moment...and to be honest the dirtiest hurlers in our club are our county players so that gives you an idea of the amount of it out there. I think that there is so little between the teams now adays physicaly that players are more and more likely to push the boundaries. When they come up against the best players they know that if they let eoin kelly etc get the ball into their hand its a guranteed score so they are more and more desperate to starve them of possesion in any way possible.
It would cut it out wouldn't it, in an ideal world. I know it's not possible to do, that everyone should be treated to the law of the rulebook, and I'm not saying it should be done either, but I do think it plays a factor in the refs mind, some will give the player the benefit of the doubt, but the amount of times, and I'm sure you'll have seen the same, when you'll see a player like Walsh get away with things time and time again and then a pretty fair player get sent off for the same thing. It's infuriating to say the least. I don't think refs should go harder on players who have a history of dirty strikes and such, but I do think it, for some refs, plays a factor in their decisions on the pitch. I'm not saying it should, but it does.
Like the Kilkenny game against Galway, it was consistant, fouling and it stopped Galway from getting goals. Foul, after foul, persistant. And like watching Joe Canning play, especially at club level, there are players out there who'll do absolutely anything to stop him. It's one thing playing the game, it's another thing to go out and have your soul goal to be foul them for the entire game, and there are players out there who do that, obviously.
Quote from: milltown row on June 22, 2009, 05:44:43 PM
on the Walsh incident. if he booked him for the slap in the hand then he should have been sent off for bringing down the attacker.
the first yellow card is for striking an opponent in the hand. if he was going for the ball then every hurler in the land would be striking people on the hand cause they have the ball. so yellow card, and not harsh IMO the other one is another yellow card. if you haul someone to the ground in football or hurling its a yellow card.
if Barry didn't send him off cause it was so soon after the first yellow card then he has made a mistake.
i referee and play the game. so I'm well versed in the rules. (as a player though i constantly break them) there was loads of early pulling in the game and while Murray's was bad I've seen others getting a yellow.
Difficulty in refereeing (from my view) is that you have to be consistent if your the type who blows early for over carrying then you must do it for both teams throughout the game, if you blow for soft challenge then you have to do it the whole game for both teams, same as for players slabbering, ya have to dish out the same warnings.
My point being, there was some tackles being aloud and others not
In fairness milltown i would say that every player in the land does strike a guys hand when the ball is in it at some time or another. I can attest to that fact, I was playing two matches at the weekend at full back...my hands are black and blue with quite a few cuts from where i was being slapped either coming out with the ball or in the process of catching it....its part of the game and im sure that i probably hit one or two of the forwards whilst contesting for the ball and it cant be helped. A lot of players also hit the players hands when he has possesion of the ball in a dirty fashion. One of the most common things is to slap a guy on the elbow as he is attempting to round you...this rarely gets even a free at club level (at least in the ones ive seen / competed in) and is quite prevalent at intercounty level aswell. The ref was probably a little harsh imo to give walsh a yellow for it and i think this was uppermost in his mind when dealing with the second incident.
On the second incident he certainly wasnt hauled to the ground as you put it...it was a proffessional foul though and most certainly stopped a goal chance if not a goal and deserved a yellow card...but imo getting sent off for those two incidents alone would have been harsh on tw.
In fairness I think everyone was pretty much in agreement here, I was delighted to see Murray get a straight red. Whatever about tommy walsh slapping etc...an argument could be made that he went for the ball on both occasions. In Murrays case it was blatantly to hit the man he was marking. It was really dangerous, if it was the age of no helmets it would have been a serious belt.
Look it is hard for the referee's to be consistent and to see everything. They generally do an extremely good job in my view...especially at intercounty level. If they blew by the book we would all be complaining...hurling is a game played best in the grey margin between wrong and right. In a lot of challenges there is one player or another doing something marginal...like how often do you see a forward first out to a ball and the back chopping the hurl as he goes to rise it?? A lot of stuff like this is let go because no one wants to see 70 frees every game.
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 22, 2009, 10:58:05 PM
On the Walsh incidents I think Barry got the second one wrong, they were both yellow cards IMO and he should have walked. Barry is one of the best hurling refs out there and I'm sure he'll learn from this. Kilkenny and Walsh in particular push the rules right to the limit and they should have suffered here, was a great game apart from that and hopefully the Tribesmen can push on from here and give the Cats another rattle later on in the summer.
Learn? Hes the most experienced ref out there. Hes the sharpest, fittest and most sensible ref and he doesn't mind risking his decisions getting on the wrong side of the respective team managers and he must be respected for that. And whats to learn about Walsh? Hes reffed him before. Its not as if Walsh is some new kid on the block. Hes been around years, has done and achieved everything in the game (short of captaining his county). Barry Kelly did give him special attention in the Leinster final last year (I think it was. Either that or the semi) where he blew him up when contesting pretty much every high ball he went for. It was a frustrating thing to watch as most of the time it seemed Walsh was doing little enough wrong.
This is bullshit about Kelly needing to learn. Instead of the incessant complaining about how Kilkenny play the game, other counties should follow suit and toughen up a bit. If people genuinely think the only way for Kilkenny's dominance at the top is for refs to start being heavy handed with them, well then thats just really scraping the barrel.
Nope we're simply asking the refs to enforce the rules of the game for all counties and to stop giving Kilkenny a carte blanche to do whatever they like. I've watched saturdays game twice now and nothing you've said based on what I've seen has changed my mind in relation to Kilkenny. They are getting away with murder.
Brian Cody is well versed on getting refs to ref the game the way he wants it as we've seen in the past. If that means having a word with him he will do so.
They aren't really leaving teams any choice but to simply lower the blades and hit anything that moves when playing kilkenny.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 23, 2009, 09:25:10 AM
Nope we're simply asking the refs to enforce the rules of the game for all counties and to stop giving Kilkenny a carte blanche to do whatever they like. I've watched saturdays game twice now and nothing you've said based on what I've seen has changed my mind in relation to Kilkenny. They are getting away with murder.
Brian Cody is well versed on getting refs to ref the game the way he wants it as we've seen in the past. If that means having a word with him he will do so.
They aren't really leaving teams any choice but to simply lower the blades and hit anything that moves when playing kilkenny.
Which is right up their street.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 23, 2009, 09:25:10 AM
They aren't really leaving teams any choice but to simply lower the blades and hit anything that moves when playing kilkenny.
now you're talking. So in effect, Kilkenny are doing everyone else a favour by showing them the way.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 23, 2009, 09:09:30 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 22, 2009, 10:58:05 PM
On the Walsh incidents I think Barry got the second one wrong, they were both yellow cards IMO and he should have walked. Barry is one of the best hurling refs out there and I'm sure he'll learn from this. Kilkenny and Walsh in particular push the rules right to the limit and they should have suffered here, was a great game apart from that and hopefully the Tribesmen can push on from here and give the Cats another rattle later on in the summer.
Learn? Hes the most experienced ref out there. Hes the sharpest, fittest and most sensible ref and he doesn't mind risking his decisions getting on the wrong side of the respective team managers and he must be respected for that. And whats to learn about Walsh? Hes reffed him before. Its not as if Walsh is some new kid on the block. Hes been around years, has done and achieved everything in the game (short of captaining his county). Barry Kelly did give him special attention in the Leinster final last year (I think it was. Either that or the semi) where he blew him up when contesting pretty much every high ball he went for. It was a frustrating thing to watch as most of the time it seemed Walsh was doing little enough wrong.
This is bullshit about Kelly needing to learn. Instead of the incessant complaining about how Kilkenny play the game, other counties should follow suit and toughen up a bit. If people genuinely think the only way for Kilkenny's dominance at the top is for refs to start being heavy handed with them, well then thats just really scraping the barrel.
Hey, all I'm saying is that he got the second decision wrong and next time he finds himself in that position he should have the conviction to issue the second yellow, whether it's Tommy Walsh or anyone else. I'll put up the example of Donal Og last year as one that he got spot on, two yellows in the first half, both fully deserved. Hell, anyone who takes to the field should look to take something new away from the 70+ minutes, whether that's officials, players or management, we should be all learning. Fully agree that it's up to other teams to come up to Kilkenny's level, Galway and Tipp in the league final were not far away...
I think most Leinster teams would say that Kilkenny are certainly not afraid to lower the blades, and also to get stuck in. They are so good they can hurl you either way. There's also no doubt in my mind that they are a battle hardened team that are well aware of the 'dark arts' and how to use them when required. Noel Hickey is no fan of conserving Ash trees, and there's a few like him.
But is that a bad thing? I say no. I think it's just another facet of the game that Kilkenny have perfected, and it's only a foul if the ref says it's a foul. I know we've been frustrated playing them, and in other games, because we seem to get pulled a lot for things Kilkenny would never be pulled for, but again that's not Kilkenny's problem.
I would not consider Kilkenny a dirty team, by a long stretch. I think they are cute, I think they walk the line, and I think they are fantastically gifted to boot. That's a fearsome combination, and it is why they are the best. But the rest have to raise their game to compete with them.
The only time I would have a problem is if you play Kilkenny, and give away frees for things that they are being let away with, but that happens rarely enough in my opinion.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 23, 2009, 12:35:24 PM
I think most Leinster teams would say that Kilkenny are certainly not afraid to lower the blades, and also to get stuck in. They are so good they can hurl you either way. There's also no doubt in my mind that they are a battle hardened team that are well aware of the 'dark arts' and how to use them when required. Noel Hickey is no fan of conserving Ash trees, and there's a few like him.
But is that a bad thing? I say no. I think it's just another facet of the game that Kilkenny have perfected, and it's only a foul if the ref says it's a foul. I know we've been frustrated playing them, and in other games, because we seem to get pulled a lot for things Kilkenny would never be pulled for, but again that's not Kilkenny's problem.
I would not consider Kilkenny a dirty team, by a long stretch. I think they are cute, I think they walk the line, and I think they are fantastically gifted to boot. That's a fearsome combination, and it is why they are the best. But the rest have to raise their game to compete with them.
The only time I would have a problem is if you play Kilkenny, and give away frees for things that they are being let away with, but that happens rarely enough in my opinion.
That's what they did against Galway though, foul after foul, it's purpose was to stop Galway from getting more goals, and worked. It was persistant deliberate fouling.
On the rest of the post, you're right, it's great if you could do it and you sure as hell wouldn't be complaining if you're team were able to do it and get away with it. It's not always strictly a bad thing, though I do think they hop over the line a bit on occasions. They play the game and rules to the limit and that in a way is one of the things that makes them so good.
Quote from: Reillers on June 23, 2009, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 23, 2009, 12:35:24 PM
I think most Leinster teams would say that Kilkenny are certainly not afraid to lower the blades, and also to get stuck in. They are so good they can hurl you either way. There's also no doubt in my mind that they are a battle hardened team that are well aware of the 'dark arts' and how to use them when required. Noel Hickey is no fan of conserving Ash trees, and there's a few like him.
But is that a bad thing? I say no. I think it's just another facet of the game that Kilkenny have perfected, and it's only a foul if the ref says it's a foul. I know we've been frustrated playing them, and in other games, because we seem to get pulled a lot for things Kilkenny would never be pulled for, but again that's not Kilkenny's problem.
I would not consider Kilkenny a dirty team, by a long stretch. I think they are cute, I think they walk the line, and I think they are fantastically gifted to boot. That's a fearsome combination, and it is why they are the best. But the rest have to raise their game to compete with them.
The only time I would have a problem is if you play Kilkenny, and give away frees for things that they are being let away with, but that happens rarely enough in my opinion.
That's what they did against Galway though, foul after foul, it's purpose was to stop Galway from getting more goals, and worked. It was persistant deliberate fouling.
On the rest of the post, you're right, it's great if you could do it and you sure as hell wouldn't be complaining if you're team were able to do it and get away with it. It's not always strictly a bad thing, though I do think they hop over the line a bit on occasions. They play the game and rules to the limit and that in a way is one of the things that makes them so good.
Aye, but they were blown up on those fouls. So they were conceding scores (1-9 from placed balls I think from JC). That's being streetwise and, yes, a bit cynical but not dirty.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 23, 2009, 12:35:24 PM
I think most Leinster teams would say that Kilkenny are certainly not afraid to lower the blades, and also to get stuck in. They are so good they can hurl you either way. There's also no doubt in my mind that they are a battle hardened team that are well aware of the 'dark arts' and how to use them when required. Noel Hickey is no fan of conserving Ash trees, and there's a few like him.
But is that a bad thing? I say no. I think it's just another facet of the game that Kilkenny have perfected, and it's only a foul if the ref says it's a foul. I know we've been frustrated playing them, and in other games, because we seem to get pulled a lot for things Kilkenny would never be pulled for, but again that's not Kilkenny's problem.
I would not consider Kilkenny a dirty team, by a long stretch. I think they are cute, I think they walk the line, and I think they are fantastically gifted to boot. That's a fearsome combination, and it is why they are the best. But the rest have to raise their game to compete with them.
The only time I would have a problem is if you play Kilkenny, and give away frees for things that they are being let away with, but that happens rarely enough in my opinion.
The problem I have with the current Kilkenny team is that they aren't cutting their cloth to suit the opposition- they are simply lowering the blades from the off and refs are letting them away with it.
In my opinion at present they are just a dirty team.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 23, 2009, 12:49:04 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 23, 2009, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 23, 2009, 12:35:24 PM
I think most Leinster teams would say that Kilkenny are certainly not afraid to lower the blades, and also to get stuck in. They are so good they can hurl you either way. There's also no doubt in my mind that they are a battle hardened team that are well aware of the 'dark arts' and how to use them when required. Noel Hickey is no fan of conserving Ash trees, and there's a few like him.
But is that a bad thing? I say no. I think it's just another facet of the game that Kilkenny have perfected, and it's only a foul if the ref says it's a foul. I know we've been frustrated playing them, and in other games, because we seem to get pulled a lot for things Kilkenny would never be pulled for, but again that's not Kilkenny's problem.
I would not consider Kilkenny a dirty team, by a long stretch. I think they are cute, I think they walk the line, and I think they are fantastically gifted to boot. That's a fearsome combination, and it is why they are the best. But the rest have to raise their game to compete with them.
The only time I would have a problem is if you play Kilkenny, and give away frees for things that they are being let away with, but that happens rarely enough in my opinion.
That's what they did against Galway though, foul after foul, it's purpose was to stop Galway from getting more goals, and worked. It was persistant deliberate fouling.
On the rest of the post, you're right, it's great if you could do it and you sure as hell wouldn't be complaining if you're team were able to do it and get away with it. It's not always strictly a bad thing, though I do think they hop over the line a bit on occasions. They play the game and rules to the limit and that in a way is one of the things that makes them so good.
Aye, but they were blown up on those fouls. So they were conceding scores (1-9 from placed balls I think from JC). That's being streetwise and, yes, a bit cynical but not dirty.
Ya, true, and I didn't say it was dirty, just infuriating to watch, so I can only imagine how the poor Galway lads felt.
Indiana, I think that's harsh. Maybe this year is a new departure, and they are starting to go to code red from the off, but over the Championships of the last few years, it only seemed they would take the physical approach when they were challenged in that way.
Certainly I don't remember them being dirty against Offaly or Wexford or Galway in those games, and they were only physical against Cork last year in the period when Cork were trying to put it up to them. When Cork ran out of steam, Kilkenny were happy to trot along easy. Same against Waterford in the final. Waterford tried to hit lads before the anthem, Kilkenny put an end to that lively after the ball was dropped, and then just hurled.
I think you have to expect Kilkenny to hit you, and hit you hard, but I don't think they've done anything particularly dirty. Of course that can change as players get slightly longer in the tooth, get a bit more narky, and are under arguably more pressure. This Kilkenny team will not want to be the team that got beaten.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 23, 2009, 12:59:01 PM
Indiana, I think that's harsh.
Hes either on the wind-up or has an agenda.
I wouldn't waste time.
Quote from: Reillers on June 23, 2009, 12:43:17 PM
I do think they hop over the line a bit on occasions. They play the game and rules to the limit and that in a way is one of the things that makes them so good.
have any successful team ever been any different?
How about the Clare all-Ireland winning teams? Or Wexford.
sorry, but in my book if you're not willing to lay it on the line you won't reap the rewards.
be nice all you like. See where it gets you.
I'm entitled to my opinion bottlethrower- you might consider yourself some sort of a hurling scholar in your own mind.
When I see Kilkenny players repeatedly getting away with offences other counties get penalised for you begin to wonder is there any referee out there with a pair of balls to referee their matches in accordance with the rules. In my opinion there currently isn't as we saw last Saturday again.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 23, 2009, 01:03:53 PM
I'm entitled to my opinion bottlethrower- you might consider yourself some sort of a hurling scholar in your own mind.
When I see Kilkenny players repeatedly getting away with offences other counties get penalised for you begin to wonder is there any referee out there with a pair of balls to referee their matches in accordance with the rules. In my opinion there currently isn't as we saw last Saturday again.
INDY, have you gone anti-KK since Dublin won the semi final or something? I can't remember you being so 'down' on the Cats before now. I thought you were more or less of the same opinion as myself, basically hugely respectful of this Kilkenny team, and would love to be the team that beats them. Of course they are teak tough, and not afraid of the price of timber, but all good teams have an element of that. I haven't seen a marked slide towards anarchy in them yet, and as I say, if they are not being penalised, it's not their fault. Joe Canning scored 1-9 from placed balls on Saturday though, so Barry Kelly obviously gave some frees against them..
Quote from: INDIANA on June 23, 2009, 01:03:53 PM
I'm entitled to my opinion bottlethrower- you might consider yourself some sort of a hurling scholar in your own mind.
thats the second time you've leveled that accusation at me. I think the first time you accused me of thinking myself some kind of 'authority', I think the word was.
Its petty. Very petty
Quote from: awfulynice on June 23, 2009, 08:32:32 AM
Quote from: milltown row on June 22, 2009, 05:44:43 PM
on the Walsh incident. if he booked him for the slap in the hand then he should have been sent off for bringing down the attacker.
the first yellow card is for striking an opponent in the hand. if he was going for the ball then every hurler in the land would be striking people on the hand cause they have the ball. so yellow card, and not harsh IMO the other one is another yellow card. if you haul someone to the ground in football or hurling its a yellow card.
if Barry didn't send him off cause it was so soon after the first yellow card then he has made a mistake.
i referee and play the game. so I'm well versed in the rules. (as a player though i constantly break them) there was loads of early pulling in the game and while Murray's was bad I've seen others getting a yellow.
Difficulty in refereeing (from my view) is that you have to be consistent if your the type who blows early for over carrying then you must do it for both teams throughout the game, if you blow for soft challenge then you have to do it the whole game for both teams, same as for players slabbering, ya have to dish out the same warnings.
My point being, there was some tackles being aloud and others not
In fairness milltown i would say that every player in the land does strike a guys hand when the ball is in it at some time or another. I can attest to that fact, I was playing two matches at the weekend at full back...my hands are black and blue with quite a few cuts from where i was being slapped either coming out with the ball or in the process of catching it....its part of the game and im sure that i probably hit one or two of the forwards whilst contesting for the ball and it cant be helped. A lot of players also hit the players hands when he has possesion of the ball in a dirty fashion. One of the most common things is to slap a guy on the elbow as he is attempting to round you...this rarely gets even a free at club level (at least in the ones ive seen / competed in) and is quite prevalent at intercounty level aswell. The ref was probably a little harsh imo to give walsh a yellow for it and i think this was uppermost in his mind when dealing with the second incident.
On the second incident he certainly wasnt hauled to the ground as you put it...it was a proffessional foul though and most certainly stopped a goal chance if not a goal and deserved a yellow card...but imo getting sent off for those two incidents alone would have been harsh on tw.
In fairness I think everyone was pretty much in agreement here, I was delighted to see Murray get a straight red. Whatever about tommy walsh slapping etc...an argument could be made that he went for the ball on both occasions. In Murrays case it was blatantly to hit the man he was marking. It was really dangerous, if it was the age of no helmets it would have been a serious belt.
Look it is hard for the referee's to be consistent and to see everything. They generally do an extremely good job in my view...especially at intercounty level. If they blew by the book we would all be complaining...hurling is a game played best in the grey margin between wrong and right. In a lot of challenges there is one player or another doing something marginal...like how often do you see a forward first out to a ball and the back chopping the hurl as he goes to rise it?? A lot of stuff like this is let go because no one wants to see 70 frees every game.
Except in the first case Damien Hayes already had the ball in his hands when he got a slap. It wasn't like he was juggling for it. Walsh made no attempt at all in the second case to play the ball. He just took Smith out of it.
I thought Murray deserved what he got but it was just reckless play IMO rather than an attempt to deliberately hit someone. He wasn't even looking at the Kilkenny player he ended up hitting but when you pull wildly like that it's dangerous play.
Certainly would have no complaints about Murray but anyone thinking that Walsh didn't deserve the line is living in la la land I think.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 23, 2009, 01:03:18 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 23, 2009, 12:43:17 PM
I do think they hop over the line a bit on occasions. They play the game and rules to the limit and that in a way is one of the things that makes them so good.
have any successful team ever been any different?
How about the Clare all-Ireland winning teams? Or Wexford.
sorry, but in my book if you're not willing to lay it on the line you won't reap the rewards.
be nice all you like. See where it gets you.
Has a succesful team ever been any different, no not really. But, has any team of late, been as succesfull playing the game the way Kilkenny do?
Like it's a man's game, if you have it, use it, use whatever weapons you in have in your arsenal, and I don't think, within reason obviously, that anyone should have to apologise for that. Now obviously if that involves dirty strikes, more then you'd get on a normal day, then that's another question, but you'll have teams whining, supporters whining every time someone like Kilkenny play the way they do, but I doubt for a second that there isn't a team out there that would say no for their team to be able to do what Kilkenny do.
It's a skill, Cody, whether it's right or wrong, has it down to an art at this stage, and that includes being able to make refs ref the game the way Cody wants it reffed, to an extent.
Do all teams need to bring a sense of cynicism into their game to be succesful, probably, do they need to go to the level that Kilkenny has gone to? Maybe not. Like Cork's success over the last few years wasn't nearly as tough as Kikenny's game style, I mean, that's how Kilkenny beat you, Cork's plan was to pretty much out run you. My point is that you don't need to play like that, the way Kilkenny do to win, but you do need to play like that to beat Kilkenny, and there in lies the problem, no one is as good as playing that type of game like Kilkenny are.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 23, 2009, 01:07:20 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on June 23, 2009, 01:03:53 PM
I'm entitled to my opinion bottlethrower- you might consider yourself some sort of a hurling scholar in your own mind.
When I see Kilkenny players repeatedly getting away with offences other counties get penalised for you begin to wonder is there any referee out there with a pair of balls to referee their matches in accordance with the rules. In my opinion there currently isn't as we saw last Saturday again.
INDY, have you gone anti-KK since Dublin won the semi final or something? I can't remember you being so 'down' on the Cats before now. I thought you were more or less of the same opinion as myself, basically hugely respectful of this Kilkenny team, and would love to be the team that beats them. Of course they are teak tough, and not afraid of the price of timber, but all good teams have an element of that. I haven't seen a marked slide towards anarchy in them yet, and as I say, if they are not being penalised, it's not their fault. Joe Canning scored 1-9 from placed balls on Saturday though, so Barry Kelly obviously gave some frees against them..
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 23, 2009, 01:07:20 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on June 23, 2009, 01:03:53 PM
I'm entitled to my opinion bottlethrower- you might consider yourself some sort of a hurling scholar in your own mind.
When I see Kilkenny players repeatedly getting away with offences other counties get penalised for you begin to wonder is there any referee out there with a pair of balls to referee their matches in accordance with the rules. In my opinion there currently isn't as we saw last Saturday again.
INDY, have you gone anti-KK since Dublin won the semi final or something? I can't remember you being so 'down' on the Cats before now. I thought you were more or less of the same opinion as myself, basically hugely respectful of this Kilkenny team, and would love to be the team that beats them. Of course they are teak tough, and not afraid of the price of timber, but all good teams have an element of that. I haven't seen a marked slide towards anarchy in them yet, and as I say, if they are not being penalised, it's not their fault. Joe Canning scored 1-9 from placed balls on Saturday though, so Barry Kelly obviously gave some frees against them..
I was at the league final and several of their games last year and I've watched that game twice now. In my view they've changed their style of hurling in the last 18mths because they know ultimately they won't get sent off. And they won't either. Initially I thought it was just a few games which can happen to any side, but there is a definite pattern now where they'll lamp a few key players knowing ultimately referees will be reluctant to send them off.
Richie Murray is a case study- a wild pull nowhere near the ball -didn't connect with anyone though. Tommy Walsh gave Damien Hayes a wild rap and did connect- nowhere near the ball and gets a yellow. Like where is the consistency in that .
Galway people could not possibly be happy with either of those decisions.
Dublin up front physically won't be able to match kilkenny- too many young players that will be horsed out of it unfortunately.
Tommy Walsh is very loose in the challenge and yes I would consider him now to be a dirty player. Eddie Brennan has his moments but when someone drops their head into your outstretched arms which results in the stick round the neck, I even don't that consider that a foul let alone a yellow card offense (canning is no fool). I struggle to think of another KK player who could be considered "dirty" per se, so how Indiana, you can label the team dirty is as beyond me as it is others. The blinkers are well and truly on coming up to the final
Quote from: Reillers on June 23, 2009, 01:23:01 PM
Cork's success over the last few years wasn't nearly as tough as Kikenny's game style, I mean, that's how Kilkenny beat you, Cork's plan was to pretty much out run you. My point is that you don't need to play like that, the way Kilkenny do to win, but you do need to play like that to beat Kilkenny, and there in lies the problem, no one is as good as playing that type of game like Kilkenny are.
yep, thats fair enough. But then, during those years they probably didn't meet a team as physical as KK. Even KK themselves didn't really adopt the physicality of their game today until the AIF of '06. That they they beat Cork by pretty much outmuscling them. They haven't looked back since.
The game evolves. In the early 90s the fitness levels were taken to new heights for the time. Kilkenny got left behind. As they were catching up Clare introduced huge physicality along with their high fitness and again Kilkenny (and Cork/Tipp no different) were trailing in their wake. Eventually they caught up though. As did Tipp and Cork in the early 90s. Kilkenny have raised the bar yet again. Physicality, fitness, skill, but most of all, hunger.
For Cork and Tipp to get back to the top level they're going to at least have to match this. And to maintain a run at the top they'll have to be the ones to raise the bar again (by adapting their play in such a way that others struggle to cope with). Its an intriguing aspect of the game of hurling and its why I would never subscribe to the notion that its boring seeing the same team win all the time. It would be if the way the game was played didn't change, but it does. It has, and it will continue to do so.
The problem with Cork when it was their turn to adapt the way the game was played was that it was very much based around supreme fitness and speed. Thats not sustainable with the same bunch of players for too long a time period. Still, they got their just desert. It was novel. It wouldn't work for every team, but it did for them.
I certainly don't think Kilkenny are a dirty team but I do think that they play to the very limit of the laws. Which is fair enough you might say as long as you don't cross the line. The last day for example I certainly think they were content to concede frees rather than let Galway get near their goal as for whatever reason Galway always seem to be able to plunder goals against Kilkenny. They still let in 3 goals but it could quite easily have been 4 or 5 only for a willingness to take out the man running at goal. Probably more cynical rather than dirty though. Or "streetwise" you might euphemistically call it.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 23, 2009, 01:24:17 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 23, 2009, 01:07:20 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on June 23, 2009, 01:03:53 PM
I'm entitled to my opinion bottlethrower- you might consider yourself some sort of a hurling scholar in your own mind.
When I see Kilkenny players repeatedly getting away with offences other counties get penalised for you begin to wonder is there any referee out there with a pair of balls to referee their matches in accordance with the rules. In my opinion there currently isn't as we saw last Saturday again.
INDY, have you gone anti-KK since Dublin won the semi final or something? I can't remember you being so 'down' on the Cats before now. I thought you were more or less of the same opinion as myself, basically hugely respectful of this Kilkenny team, and would love to be the team that beats them. Of course they are teak tough, and not afraid of the price of timber, but all good teams have an element of that. I haven't seen a marked slide towards anarchy in them yet, and as I say, if they are not being penalised, it's not their fault. Joe Canning scored 1-9 from placed balls on Saturday though, so Barry Kelly obviously gave some frees against them..
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 23, 2009, 01:07:20 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on June 23, 2009, 01:03:53 PM
I'm entitled to my opinion bottlethrower- you might consider yourself some sort of a hurling scholar in your own mind.
When I see Kilkenny players repeatedly getting away with offences other counties get penalised for you begin to wonder is there any referee out there with a pair of balls to referee their matches in accordance with the rules. In my opinion there currently isn't as we saw last Saturday again.
INDY, have you gone anti-KK since Dublin won the semi final or something? I can't remember you being so 'down' on the Cats before now. I thought you were more or less of the same opinion as myself, basically hugely respectful of this Kilkenny team, and would love to be the team that beats them. Of course they are teak tough, and not afraid of the price of timber, but all good teams have an element of that. I haven't seen a marked slide towards anarchy in them yet, and as I say, if they are not being penalised, it's not their fault. Joe Canning scored 1-9 from placed balls on Saturday though, so Barry Kelly obviously gave some frees against them..
I was at the league final and several of their games last year and I've watched that game twice now. In my view they've changed their style of hurling in the last 18mths because they know ultimately they won't get sent off. And they won't either. Initially I thought it was just a few games which can happen to any side, but there is a definite pattern now where they'll lamp a few key players knowing ultimately referees will be reluctant to send them off.
Richie Murray is a case study- a wild pull nowhere near the ball -didn't connect with anyone though. Tommy Walsh gave Damien Hayes a wild rap and did connect- nowhere near the ball and gets a yellow. Like where is the consistency in that .
Galway people could not possibly be happy with either of those decisions.
Dublin up front physically won't be able to match kilkenny- too many young players that will be horsed out of it unfortunately.
Indiana...there is consistency in that
Tommy Walsh slapped Damien Hayes hand, he was just after collecting the ball in his hand and walsh made a slap...he had a fair idea he wasnt going to get the ball but went for it anyway...imo its a harsh yellow...i wouldnt have bothered me if there was a black book and a warning for this.
What Richie Murray did was outrageous...he pulled across a mans head...the fact that you are actually trying to make the two incidents comparable is ridiculous. It was reckless, miles away from the ball and ultimately extremely dangerous.
People have died from belts to the head from hurling yknow...its not ok to condone this and id love if the gaa gave a three month ban to stop that crap happening again.
They were both wild pulls- I'm simply asking whats the difference. I've no problem with Murray being sent off- but so should Walsh. I agree with the galway posters that anyone who thinks Walsh didn't deserve a red really has the blinkers on .
I'm not bothered really what people think of views on Kilkenny- I'm entitled to them- same as anybody else. Can't wait to see what the Cats get away with on the 5th.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on June 23, 2009, 01:34:13 PM
Quote from: Reillers on June 23, 2009, 01:23:01 PM
Cork's success over the last few years wasn't nearly as tough as Kikenny's game style, I mean, that's how Kilkenny beat you, Cork's plan was to pretty much out run you. My point is that you don't need to play like that, the way Kilkenny do to win, but you do need to play like that to beat Kilkenny, and there in lies the problem, no one is as good as playing that type of game like Kilkenny are.
yep, thats fair enough. But then, during those years they probably didn't meet a team as physical as KK. Even KK themselves didn't really adopt the physicality of their game today until the AIF of '06. That they they beat Cork by pretty much outmuscling them. They haven't looked back since.
The game evolves. In the early 90s the fitness levels were taken to new heights for the time. Kilkenny got left behind. As they were catching up Clare introduced huge physicality along with their high fitness and again Kilkenny (and Cork/Tipp no different) were trailing in their wake. Eventually they caught up though. As did Tipp and Cork in the early 90s. Kilkenny have raised the bar yet again. Physicality, fitness, skill, but most of all, hunger.
For Cork and Tipp to get back to the top level they're going to at least have to match this. And to maintain a run at the top they'll have to be the ones to raise the bar again (by adapting their play in such a way that others struggle to cope with). Its an intriguing aspect of the game of hurling and its why I would never subscribe to the notion that its boring seeing the same team win all the time. It would be if the way the game was played didn't change, but it does. It has, and it will continue to do so.
The problem with Cork when it was their turn to adapt the way the game was played was that it was very much based around supreme fitness and speed. Thats not sustainable with the same bunch of players for too long a time period. Still, they got their just desert. It was novel. It wouldn't work for every team, but it did for them.
I can't speak for Tipp, but I know that when it comes to changing game style, Cork are pretty stuborn, always have been. Even now, we've this big monster up front, but we're not 100% sure how to use him. Aisake is there and he could be devastating, Cork just need to learn how to use him. The long ball route doesn't come naturally.
We're still trying to out run teams, which 3 years ago worked, but once you know how to stop it, like KK figured out, it's pretty easy to do so if you're a top class team. We've players with sensational speed, could out run anyone, the twins, Tom Kenny, Naughton..etc. Especially Naughton, 3 years ago when this Cork team was top he would have been devastating. He is now, but back then it would have been to another extent all together.
Naughton can leave anyone behind him with ball in hand, but the problem for him has been getting the ball because he's muscled out if it nearly every time.
This team, need to learn how to adapt, we're not going to get anywhere unless they do. We can beat the weaker teams by playing the way we are used to but we'll hit a brick wall everytime if we go and try and play that game against the likes of KK.
As for Tipp, we saw what happened in the League whne they tried to play Kk's game and it got very, very messy. It really is just a matter of sink or swim at the minute I'm afraid.
Here's An Moltóir's analysis of the game on An Fear Rua
Galway beaten by their own errors
Kilkenny showed once again that matching them for intensity only goes half way to beating them – you also have to be able to use the ball well while playing at that level of intensity. While Kilkenny's ruthless finishing in the second half was sublime, the key difference between the teams was Galway's high error count which repeatedly allowed Kilkenny to get into positions where they could exert maximum punishment.
In the second half alone, An Moltóir counted eleven Galway fumbles to Kilkenny's two, and ten poor plays by Galway to just one for Kilkenny. Between the 48th and 67th minutes there were no less than eight episodes where Galway conceded possession due to such errors and a Kilkenny score followed. It was Clare in the 1990s who patented the concept of high-performance intensity but the current Kilkenny outfit have brought it to a new level which other counties are going to have to match if they are to have any chance of bringing the Cats down.
Another major problem for Galway was the lack of scoring edge among their half forwards who could only manage two points from play compared with eight for their Kilkenny counterparts. The Tribesmen did give a good account of themselves but the only way they could have won this game would have been through a couple of more goals from frees by Joe Canning (and even then who knows how Kilkenny would have responded). When one considers that the Cats were without Noel Hickey, Brian Hogan and Cha Fitzpatrick and were still able to bring on Derek Lyng, Richie Hogan and TJ Reid (not to mention newcomer Seán Cummins who gave a good account of himself), one can clearly see the mammoth task facing potential pretenders to their All-Ireland crown.
For all their hard work, Galway were still shaded it by Kilkenny in both halves in terms of number of individual plays (76:71, 78:69). This 11 per cent gap in number of plays expanded to 18% in terms of quality of plays – exactly the same gap as the scoring difference between the teams. Michael Rice was far and away the most effective player on the field, his 22 plays garnering him 53 quality points (note the similarity with Brick Walsh in Thurles). The other key Kilkenny players were Eoin Larkin (42 points from 15 plays, John Dalton (36/15) and Aidan Fogarty (31/12); four other players exceeded the 20-point mark.
Galway had no one in the same league as Rice or Larkin. Their top player was Damien Hayes (35/14) followed by Cyril Donnellan (32/12) and Eoin Lynch (32/15); three other players managed in excess of 20 points.
Key post-match talking points here were the sending off of Richie Murray and the non-sending-off of Tommy Walsh. Side-by-side with the game in Thurles, this game again highlighted both the inconsistency of the rules of hurling and the inconsistency of their application. Murray got a red card for a wild swing under a high ball; Séamus Prendergast did something similar in Thurles and got a yellow. Murray's pull was not targetted and did not hit anyone. Tommy Walsh's slap across Damien Hayes's hand was nasty and could hardly be regarded as careless – he pulled exactly the same stroke on Eoin Kelly in the league match against Waterford. Then he follows this with a rugby tackle on a Galway player through on goal and still survives. Furthermore, in an incident in the third minute which the referee did not seem to notice, Walsh hit Damien Hayes in the back of the neck with his hurley after the Galway man had gone to ground following a foul.
A key problem here is the fact that hurling referees only appear to be prepared to give out cards for violent offences or repeated non-violent offences. Bringing down a player without applying violence, even where the player would otherwise be through on goal, rarely attracts a booking. Walsh's tackle on Adrian Smyth would have merited a red card in soccer. And when Eddie Brennan – already on a yellow card – took out Ollie Canning with a high tackle which verged on the dangerous in the 57th minute, Barry Kelly just awarded a routine free.
The GAA needs to make all deliberate personal fouls yellow-card offences and all violent fouls red-card offences. They also need to impose suspensions for players receiving yellow cards in successive games. But then they also need to introduce an advantage rule and to allow linesmen to flag for fouls, not to mention...oh, forget it.
Number of plays – open play only (quality points in brackets):
Kilkenny: Ryan PJ 4 (9); Kavanagh M 2 (4); Delaney JJ 7 (16); Tyrrell J 5 (10); Walsh T 10 (22); Tennyson J 10 (25); Dalton J 17 (36); Fennelly M 7 (15); Rice M 22 (53); Sheflin H 9 (26); Comerford M 13 (27); Larkin E 12 (30); Brennan E 4 (9); Power R 6 (15); Fogarty A 12 (31); Lyng D 7 (18); Cummins S 4 (10); Hogan R 1 (2) ; Reid TJ 1 (3). Note: Kilkenny players can be difficult to identify at times on screen. Ger Canning's tendency to misidentify players is no help.
Galway: Callanan C 2 (5); Joyce D 11 (26); Kavanagh S 6 (14); Canning O 12 (29); Moore F 7 (16); Lee J 9 (17); Cullinane A 9 (18); Lynch E 15 (32); Hynes K 4 (8); Callanan A 12 (27); Donnellan C 12 (32); Smyth A 5 (9); Hayes D 14 (35); Canning J 7 (17); Healy N 5 (13); Tierney D 8 (15); Kerins A 2 (4); Murray R no plays.
What sort of half ased scoring system gives Joe Canning less points than Damian Hayes FFS >:(
SCB....Joe Canning didn't see that much open play as talented as he is. Has all the eulogising blinkered people to facts?
Quote from: theskull1 on June 23, 2009, 03:57:24 PM
SCB....Joe Canning didn't see that much open play as talented as he is. Has all the eulogising blinkered people to facts?
its not just the eulogising thats having this affect
Quote from: slow corner back on June 23, 2009, 03:15:20 PM
What sort of half ased scoring system gives Joe Canning less points than Damian Hayes FFS >:(
Presumably the scoring system doesn't include actual scores by players themselves strange as it may sound. More possession gained, successful passes, etc.
Joe Canning scored 2-9 how much did hayes score. Was it hype than ran by JJ leaving him for dead or that drove in a 21 yd free to set the game alight. Anyone who does not think that Canning is by some distance the most influential player on the Galway team is delusional.
Quote from: slow corner back on June 23, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
Joe Canning scored 2-9 how much did hayes score. Was it hype than ran by JJ leaving him for dead or that drove in a 21 yd free to set the game alight. Anyone who does not think that Canning is by some distance the most influential player on the Galway team is delusional.
I think he is getting some grief in some quarters because he "only" scored 1-0 from play. Of course the other goal he scored from the free was hardly a gimme either. I think he's had better games but he did alright given the attention he was receiving and the dubious quality of the ball he was getting especially in the last 20 minutes or so of the game.
Quote from: Bud Wiser on June 21, 2009, 11:45:42 AM
QuotePity, really thought they'd go on and win. But Galway's legs went in the end and Kilkenny's experience held out.
Maybe Galway need to go on strike for about five months and do a bit of personal training.
A few breaks either way and either team could have won this one, the short puck out being a mistake but that is ok for all us to say now, the lad was not the sole cause of the defeat. There was another short puck out that resulted directly in a point. The ref had a great game as far as I was concerned, again, he can't get everything right and was brave enough to flash the red card when others would have not taken the responsibility. As for giving Tommy Wals a red card????? He gave him a yellow one that he just about deserved and the shennanigans around the end line with Joe Canning is part and parcel of the game and credit to Canning for giving as good as he got. Hurling at its best, no moaning, no whining. Galway deserve great credit for a gutsy performance and firing up the championship. They will have another day and it could well be in Croker in September - against Waterford !!
Only thing I was not happy about with Canning was his gesture to the crowd/cameras after he scored the goal aka premiership player antics and while it was not that much OTT the problem is you could have other counties replicating it and pointing to adverts on their helmets and the next thing a strike and the whole championship is frigged.
What? Isn't that a bit of an overreaction. What was wrong with the celebration, it wasn't a soccer celebration and I don't know where your comming from with the advert on the helmets.
As for the match, it was very good though sloppy in bits. The ref was poor through out, the neutrals thought so, the Galway fans thought so, and so did the Kilkenny fans. Walsh should have gone for the first incident, he knew what he was at, he was never going to get the ball and could have broken Hayes hand. But he certainly should have gotten a second yellow for the next foul.
Murry deservedly went, I was annoyed with him and wouldn't be sorry if he was dropped, stupidity at its worst in such an important part of the game.
Kilkenny showed why they are the champions, they just always seem to be able to up gear when they want. At one stage of the first half within minutes they went from five points down to two up. In the last 20 minutes they also out scored Galway by 12 points to three.
Tipp and now Galway have shown that Kilkenny are not unbeatable, though it will take a massive effort to beat them.
Clare are up next for us, that will be a tough game, lets hope we don't drop our performance, if we perform like we did against the Cats we should do enough to win, but if history has shown us anything its how unpredictable Galway can be.
On another note.
I think the non performance of Damian Hayes and Andy Smith puts to bed the notion that Portumna would be as good as any county team bar Kilkenny.
Unless Hayes gets the ball in hand and can flail his way towards goal, he looks to me like he lack the hurling to take scores from distances and angles .
Galway would be better off trying the likes of Ger Farragher or Alan Kerins to tap over points.
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on June 23, 2009, 06:39:20 PM
On another note.
I think the non performance of Damian Hayes and Andy Smith puts to bed the notion that Portumna would be as good as any county team bar Kilkenny.
Unless Hayes gets the ball in hand and can flail his way towards goal, he looks to me like he lack the hurling to take scores from distances and angles .
Galway would be better off trying the likes of Ger Farragher or Alan Kerins to tap over points.
:o Whatever about Andy Smith but Damien Hayes is a proven inter county player, I'd be looking at trying to source a better corner forward than Healy first. Kerins is a half forward and Farragher has never cut the mustard for me, except from placed balls and they have Canning for that now...
Hayes can certainly score points from close in even at tight angles but his game is all about scoring goals really. He's not one to drift well out the field and knock over points from distance. In fairness when he gets the right ball he is very dangerous but defenders know that as soon as he gets the ball he is going to take them on so they are looking to stop him immediately and often illegally. He does win a lot of frees when defenders haul him down rather than let him past them. He hasn't had a really good game for Galway in a while now but he's often dealing with ball landed down on top of him from a height. Which isn't his game. You need to work him into space like Portumna have perfected doing.
Farragher is a strange one. Obviously a very good free taker but no need for that now with Joe there. I think there are doubts over his work rate to be honest.
You'll need farragher's size against Clare. ennis is a very tight pitch. I'd use him in the half forwards for that game.
Re: Galway v Kilkenny
« Reply #186 on: Today at 03:00:24 PM »
Who analyses games like that ? It must be something to do with brain wiring.
I used to think there weren't enough hurling journalists and what it would be like to have more- I thought you'd have more Kevin Cashman stuff. Instead it's the opta index. So much for progress.
Kilkenny are great stickmen but I'm sick looking at them. It was the same for me with Liverpool in the 80s.
And Shamrock Rovers. I miss the romance of the Pilntons. KK are too serious. And Cody is too intense.
I went into a pub today in Kerry between Ballybunion and Listowel and there were a few locals there and the usual chat started, like, where was I from etc. This fella was stuck in a pint and he asks, "what did you think of Galway d'other evening" and before I could say anything at all he says ------------- "Tommy Walsh should have got sent off though" Sweet lovin lantern jes..., did Tommy frigging shoot someone last Saturday? I could understand if we were discussing the game in detail and after a while he said it but I didn't even get to sit down >:(
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on June 23, 2009, 06:39:20 PM
On another note.
I think the non performance of Damian Hayes and Andy Smith puts to bed the notion that Portumna would be as good as any county team bar Kilkenny.
Unless Hayes gets the ball in hand and can flail his way towards goal, he looks to me like he lack the hurling to take scores from distances and angles .
Galway would be better off trying the likes of Ger Farragher or Alan Kerins to tap over points.
Yes but I would have thought that anyone that knew a bit about hurling wouldn't have being saying that about Portumna anyway. Great club, yes, but I wouldn't compare them to county teams. As for Hayes, I agree despite having some great games for Galway he can have his off days as well, though I wouldn't blame him for Saturday, as I don't believe they were sending in the right ball to him. I never understand it, in any sport, sending in long high balls to a small man, it doesn't give him a chance, and Hayes is no different. Thought I dont think they should drop him from the starting line up at all, he is great at winning frees and once he gets going he is very hard to stop and the main reason is I dont think we have anyone better to start instead of him!
As for Farragher, I would have said three or four years ago that he was only good for frees and cowardly in play, but I thought he has improved well over the last couple of years.
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 23, 2009, 06:50:49 PM
:o Whatever about Andy Smith but Damien Hayes is a proven inter county player, I'd be looking at trying to source a better corner forward than Healy first. Kerins is a half forward and Farragher has never cut the mustard for me, except from placed balls and they have Canning for that now...
With Hayes, his scoring rate seems to drop dramatically against the big counties.
I recall that even when Galway stuck 5-17 past the Cats a couple of years ago he didn't in on the act.
The same against Cork last year.
I reckon he's a one trick pony and his shoulder drop and charge towards goal won't fool many corner backs these days.
think thats unduly harsh. Hayes is a terrific player in my opinion and never gets the sort of service he needs. Often makes a lot of scores- something that goes un-noticed.
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on June 24, 2009, 12:05:30 AM
With Hayes, his scoring rate seems to drop dramatically against the big counties.
I remember watching him underage and I really thought he'd develop into a different type of player. More the nippy corner forward type. Instead hes more a braun sort of player. Hard as nails, but not as nippy and elusive as it looked like he might become. I like the idea of Hayes as a midfielder. I know it was tried and didn't work that well way back when, but it should have been persisted with a little while longer seeing as midfield has not been one of the more productive areas for Galway in recent years (Healy, Murray, Tierney, even Kerins, never set the world alight there).
Whatever came of Kerril Wade or Conor Kavanagh or Alan Leech? Maybe these sort of players genuinely didn't come through to senior as they might have, but from the outside it seems impatience is a problem in Galway. One wonders if a player like Richie Hogan would be allowed the time to integrate into the senior setup were he in Galway.
I agree with what the Galway lads are saying about Farragher. Theres no place for him in a team with Joe Canning in. Hes a free-taker and never really contributed much from play. I thought he was starting to blossom one season a couple of years back then then inexplicably pulled out of the panel. Some falling out or other by all accounts.
Is Mark Kerins still hurling? Theres a lad I had good time for. Yes, he was inconsistent, but on a good day I thought he was excellent, if somewhat unorthodox.
Failing that, if anyone has Joe Cooney's number, give him a shout.
seafoid, sorry for your troubles!
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on June 24, 2009, 12:05:30 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 23, 2009, 06:50:49 PM
:o Whatever about Andy Smith but Damien Hayes is a proven inter county player, I'd be looking at trying to source a better corner forward than Healy first. Kerins is a half forward and Farragher has never cut the mustard for me, except from placed balls and they have Canning for that now...
With Hayes, his scoring rate seems to drop dramatically against the big counties.
I recall that even when Galway stuck 5-17 past the Cats a couple of years ago he didn't in on the act.
The same against Cork last year.
I reckon he's a one trick pony and his shoulder drop and charge towards goal won't fool many corner backs these days.
Remember Healy being to the fore in that game but wasn't it the Quarter Final that year against Tipp where Hayes was throwing lads out of his way & sticking a couple of goals? Like I said Galway have bigger problems than replacing Hayes.
Whatever came of Kerril Wade or Conor Kavanagh or Alan Leech?
Apparently there were only 6 of the 2007 team that played Kilkenny starting last Saturday. I don't know when was the last time a Galway hurling fan could reel off the names of the half back line without thinking. There hasn't been any patience to stick with teams over any length of time. The team that got to the AIF in 2005 was dismantled shortly afterwards. Managers came through a revolving door. You can't win all-Irelands with that sort of set-up.
Quote from: Bud Wiser on June 23, 2009, 10:38:11 PM
I went into a pub today in Kerry between Ballybunion and Listowel and there were a few locals there and the usual chat started, like, where was I from etc. This fella was stuck in a pint and he asks, "what did you think of Galway d'other evening" and before I could say anything at all he says ------------- "Tommy Walsh should have got sent off though" Sweet lovin lantern jes..., did Tommy frigging shoot someone last Saturday? I could understand if we were discussing the game in detail and after a while he said it but I didn't even get to sit down >:(
Tommy walsh is dirtiest player in ireland man.face the facts
Is Irla Tannion still hurling with Galway ?
With all the focus rightly or wrongly on Tommy Walsh all this week, what are the chances of Tommy getting sent off this summer ???
Watch this space.
Quote from: Red Hurley on June 25, 2009, 04:22:55 PM
Is Irla Tannion still hurling with Galway ?
Did his cruciate just before the championship.
QuoteTommy walsh is dirtiest player in ireland man.face the facts
Not alone is he NOT the dirtiest player in Ireland, he is the best wing back, or a defender in any position on any full back line or half back line in Ireland. I was sitting in the Hogan Stand when DJ's prodigy, Hogan, took the field against Tipp and judging by the venom, and that is what it is, venom, that is directed at Tommy you would have to assume that if we could now find the guy who first gave Richie Hogan his first welcome to Croke Park that he must be serving out the last year of his four year sentence now. Get over it, Tommy made two tackles, two good ones and if Corcoran and the Dublin back line make as good as they have made all year , maybe, just maybe, and I would love to see the day, they will win All Stars as well.
There may come a time when Richie Hogan gets his chance too, and my opinion is that he would have got it when DJ retired but Cody was awake to the allegations that could follow because he was related to DJ. Hold a candle under a quilt for a while and eventually it will go alight, hold it long enough and the bed and whole room along with it but: there is now a great chance that Dubs can make a name in Leinster, by even beating Kilkenny, but, if there is a pre-emptive strike by trying to get T.W. sent off before the ball is thrown in then that is sad, sad, sad.