McCarthy admits he does not have backing of Cork hurlers

[theskull1]

Perhaps Zulu you would like to quote someone else who supports your view of an improved Cork.

I don't need to, I've a mind of my own. Cork reached a Munster final beating the beaten AI finalists along the way, they never achieved that under Gerald so that appears to be improvement, does it not?

It's pointless discussing tis with you anyway, unless Cork won the AI you would argue that the strike was pointless and even then I'm sure you'd try, as you did after the Tipp game to credit Gerald fo rthat too.

Cork "impressively" beat the AI finalists in a game where I've never seen such a limp wristed display from a Tipp team. There was something wrong with Tipps preparation going into that game they were that bad. (They still haven't recovered from KKs sucker punch last year ...I think they'll struggle against waterford.) They also beat an emerging Antrim side (in first gear  ) to get to the AI semis..........And you reckon they have "improved" on those stats Zulu? Get away with ya

Ben O'C whilst still a class act is on the down as is Sean Og, Curran, Gardiner, Jerry O'C, Nial McC, Kenny. Some of them are maybe only 10% below where they were in the mid noughties (some more) but all of those listed are not able to compete in the tight intense exchanges and cover the ground they used to be able to and recover time and time again like they need to to be up there at the top. That was obvious (to me anyway) in 2008 and has been shown up in the years since in the big battles. Regardless of who managed these individuals they couldn't turn back time. But it has taken time to expose this truth and I think most people see the trend now.

[dowling]

Fair enough points imtommygunn. However Kilkenny had at least one key player missing from their line out and two major players went off injured. Henry has suffered a serious injury as have others. All teams change and face problems. Maybe Cork have been more affected but at the time of the strike many of us recognised Cork needed to rebuild. At the same time some of the strikers seem to revert to type in their style of play without any success which would lead me to believe they're still trying to call the shots. How many balls went into Cork's full forward line yesterday? How many went into Kilkenny's? What came of Donal óg's short puck outs? There are greater problems in that Cork team than a few players retiring. You have to feel sympathy for Asaike. Once in a blue moon the ball comes his way and not necessarily the right way.
If Donal óg's reactions aren't the same, and he was at fault for the second goal, why is he still number one?

Zulu you need to dip into some archives. The strikers wanted different things at different times and clearly said so. To get rid of Ger, to put manners on the CB (not a direct quote) and to secure the future of Cork hurling. If you want to define that in terms of the senior team that's up to you.
I've no doubt many people who supported the strike, maybe reluctantly, will be asking questions of themselves.
Cork need more players to be given the chance to come through and I can understand some of the strikers thinking they're invinsible but if your mindset that Cork are improving prevails there wont be too many coming through.

[imtommygunn]

Dowling I am no expert on cork hurling but from the outside looking in i don't see anything coming through in cork hurling - particularly the forward dept. That would explain Donal Og too though I think his distribution gives him an extra edge on any other keeper who may have equal / slightly better shot stopping ability.

They have been on the slide. I don't know if they're not blooding them or what but the underage successes in cork have been reasonably limited, especially for a county the size of cork, over the last ten or so years. That has to take it's toll.

KK have got consistently better over the last 2 years too so how they do against KK is not an even playing field in that regard either.

Basically IMO, and I think most people would agree, Cork are a good bit worse of a team than they were 2 years ago. There are a number of reasons for that. I don't believe the strike has made them any worse but I can't prove it hasn't just the same as anyone else can't prove it has. I do believe the Cork team a couple of years ago was at it's prime age and in striking they probably wasted their best chance to beat KK. I don't think they'd have beat them all being well either...

[Zulu]

Cork "impressively" beat the AI finalists in a game where I've never seen such a limp wristed display from a Tipp team. There was something wrong with Tipps preparation going into that game they were that bad. (They still haven't recovered from KKs sucker punch last year ...I think they'll struggle against waterford.) They also beat an emerging Antrim side (in first gear  ) to get to the AI semis..........And you reckon they have "improved" on those stats Zulu? Get away with ya

Skull1 I agree with all of that but the point I'm making is that they have done well under Walsh given the fact that 2 years on there has been no real talent added to the team. It is ridiculous to say they have gone back or forward and relate it to the strike. some people are trying to say they see no improvement and therefore the strike was a waste of time and that is simply BS because the strike wasn't about this current group of players winning AI's but simply about being given the best chance to do as well as they can. IMO they did as well as they could and if they hadn't met Kilkenny they could have made an AI final.

I've no doubt many people who supported the strike, maybe reluctantly, will be asking questions of themselves.

Why? If Cork GAA didn't do what it did then they'd have a Limerick situation on their hands and what good is that for Cork?

Cork need more players to be given the chance to come through and I can understand some of the strikers thinking they're invinsible but if your mindset that Cork are improving prevails there wont be too many coming through.

This highlights your lack of knowledge of Cork underage hurling, the players aren't there and it is as simple as that.

[theskull1]

Skull1 I agree with all of that but the point I'm making is that they have done well under Walsh given the fact that 2 years on there has been no real talent added to the team. It is ridiculous to say they have gone back or forward and relate it to the strike. some people are trying to say they see no improvement and therefore the strike was a waste of time and that is simply BS because the strike wasn't about this current group of players winning AI's but simply about being given the best chance to do as well as they can. IMO they did as well as they could and if they hadn't met Kilkenny they could have made an AI final.

Not what I'm referring to Zulu...I'm saying that I believe the cork panel (at that time) went on strike because they felt Ger McCarthy was holding them back from achieving the performance levels that they thought they still could acheive. Time has shown that too many of the main protaganists had too miles on the clock and that is why they couldn't beat KK in 2008. Their ego's wouldn't let them see the truth. It's taken this time to prove that those levels just weren't in that group of players anymore. Still a top 4/5 side though....I'd say now that they see that thats just the way it is themselves. Shame it took what it took to come to this reality

[Zulu]

I'm saying that I believe the cork panel (at that time) went on strike because they felt Ger McCarthy was holding them back from achieving the performance levels that they thought they still could acheive.

But they were right it that respect Skull. Because the personal relationships between Gerald and, at least, certain senior members was such that he couldn't get the best out of them. Now maybe they believed that someone else would be able to lead them to an AI, like you, I never thought that was likely. I thought they were as good as anyone, bar Kilkenny and if someone caught the Cats then Cork would be in as good a position as anyone to capatilise but that was a bit of a long shot. I wouldn't be surprised if the players were a bit unrealistic about their own abilities but that is no bad thing, however the fact remains that a manager who doesn't have the respect of his players is on a loser. It doesn't matter whether the manager or players are to blame, all that matters is that the manager won't be able to get the best out of the players. In that scenario the manager should just leave IMO and when a CB reappoints a man that the players definitely don't want then, IMO, they are doing the GAA a diservice and that was teh foundation of my support for the strike. Yesterday's result or any future result won't change that.

[dowling]

Underage Zulu? I wasn't talking about underage and I don't think underage is really relevent to the immediate future of Cork senior hurling. But seeing as you brought it up what about all the good work that Donal óg and others we were told are doing at club level?
Are you saying that's Cork off the hurling map for the long term and they wont have a team in three four or five years that will be challanging for all-Irelands?

"This highlights your lack of knowledge..." A favoured line that never ceases to humour me.
Are you now telling me Cork's problems are lack of structures?

[Zulu]

Underage Zulu? I wasn't talking about underage

Well where are these players going to come from that you feel should be brought through if not from recent underage teams?

But seeing as you brought it up what about all the good work that Donal óg and others we were told are doing at club level?

Good man, another cheap dig at Donal Og, you're right if Donal was doing all this great work in Cloyne then the whole of Cork should be improving.

Are you saying that's Cork off the hurling map for the long term and they wont have a team in three four or five years that will be challanging for all-Irelands?

Yes. I can't see Cork winning an AI in the next 5 years at least, probably not even a Munster title. The small pool of hurling teams means that they might pox one but Waterford, Galway, Tipp, Clare, Dublin and Kilkenny (Wexford more recently) are all producing better underage teams.

"This highlights your lack of knowledge..." A favoured line that never ceases to humour me.
Are you now telling me Cork's problems are lack of structures?

Are you claiming you are well versed in the local Cork GAA scene? And yes I am saying that poor structures are part of the problem in Cork. It isn't the only problem but it is certainly a large part of it.

[theskull1]

I'm saying that I believe the cork panel (at that time) went on strike because they felt Ger McCarthy was holding them back from achieving the performance levels that they thought they still could acheive.

But they were right it that respect Skull. Because the personal relationships between Gerald and, at least, certain senior members was such that he couldn't get the best out of them. Now maybe they believed that someone else would be able to lead them to an AI, like you, I never thought that was likely. I thought they were as good as anyone, bar Kilkenny and if someone caught the Cats then Cork would be in as good a position as anyone to capatilise but that was a bit of a long shot. I wouldn't be surprised if the players were a bit unrealistic about their own abilities but that is no bad thing, however the fact remains that a manager who doesn't have the respect of his players is on a loser. It doesn't matter whether the manager or players are to blame, all that matters is that the manager won't be able to get the best out of the players. In that scenario the manager should just leave IMO and when a CB reappoints a man that the players definitely don't want then, IMO, they are doing the GAA a diservice and that was teh foundation of my support for the strike. Yesterday's result or any future result won't change that.

Really?...the evidence of the last 2 years tells me that that they were wrong.

If youre from the school of thought that the customer is ALWAYS right then Ger Mac had to go to please the players. I wouldn't hold that view myself
If the customer is an asshole who is going out of his way to be awkward and make the life of those attending him difficult then there comes a point in my mind when the customer is to blame for any animosity that has developed. I think the CCB understood that and that G McC was not getting a fair crack because many of the main men just didn't like his new regime and did what they could (possibly subconciously) to make his tenure difficult and tried to stick to their principles.

[Zulu]

Really?...the evidence of the last 2 years tells me that that they were wrong.

Why? A league final, a munster final and a championship win over the second best team in Ireland would suggest to me that they did reach close to the level of performance they were capable of.

I think the CCB understood that and that G McC was not getting a fair crack because many of the main men just didn't like his new regime and did what they could (possibly subconciously) to make his tenure difficult and tried to stick to their principles.

He wasn't successful with Cork anyway and that was unlikely to change. Nobody in Cork was keen for him to be reappointed prior to all the strike talk, he hadn't achieved much and many people were less than impressed with his tactics and decision making. If you think a manager who doesn't get on with his players and hasn't shown himself to be a top level coach should be kept on then fair enough. I think that is cracked.

[heffo]

Really?...the evidence of the last 2 years tells me that that they were wrong.

Why? A league final, a munster final and a championship win over the second best team in Ireland would suggest to me that they did reach close to the level of performance they were capable of.

I think the CCB understood that and that G McC was not getting a fair crack because many of the main men just didn't like his new regime and did what they could (possibly subconciously) to make his tenure difficult and tried to stick to their principles.

If you think a manager who hasn't shown himself to be a top level coach should be kept on then fair enough.

4 x County titles with Finbarrs
1 x Munster championship with Finbarra
1 x AI as selector & trainer with Cork
1 x NHL with Waterford
1 AI semi finalist & put Waterford on a solid footing to allow Justin Mc take over and win a few Munsters

[Bord na Mona man]

When Cork beat Tipp this year, there was some foolish talk that the win had justified the strike. If I recall, Kieran Shannon, who has been a proxy spokesperson for the strikers wrote an article to that effect.
I doubt the same logic will be applied to the result yesterday.

I always felt the most recent strike was down to a large degree vanity. An ageing bunch of players not realising that they were in decline. Like the ageing actress who blames her make up artist for her wrinkles.
Yesterday's defeat suggests that Gerald McCarthy's should not have been scapegoated for Cork's 2007 and 2008 'under-performance'. The steady slide was taking replace regardless.

If we are still at the stage of blaming managers, the poor tactics and the inability of so many Cork players to perform the basics like catching and rising the ball should put Denis Walsh in the dock.

[Zulu]

4 x County titles with Finbarrs
1 x Munster championship with Finbarra
1 x AI as selector & trainer with Cork
1 x NHL with Waterford
1 AI semi finalist & put Waterford on a solid footing to allow Justin Mc take over and win a few Munsters

The first two are at club level and many lads who have had club success aren't deemed worthy of even at shot at an IC team.

The third is as selector and trainer which is very different from managing and was back in the 80's.

I don't recall Waterford winning a national league with Gerald but I'll take your word for it, still doesn't mark him down as a top manager though.

The last one could be viewed as an inability to get Waterford over the line. I'll grant you he took them from a low base but again he came into a county with very poor structures and attitude to IC hurling but with talented players coming through. Ken McGrath, Flynn, Tony Browne etc. he showed them what needed to be done to be successful but he never actually closed the deal and hurling had moved on by the time he got to Cork.

Look I'm not here to debate the whole issue again and I don't want to knock Gerald but he wasn't successful with Cork and he wasn't going to be considering the relationship he had with the players. We have all said our piece on the strike itself, the only reason I'm posting on this thread is to refute the attempts of some posters to link the result yesterday with the strike. There is no more a connection than there was with Cork's win against Tipp earlier on in the year.

[Tatler Jack]

I am amazed Zulu that you are trying to suggest that Cork's results this year were any better than other years – granted they took the league a bit more seriously than for some time and Kilkenny did not. But when it mattered their performances were no better than under Ger  Mac.  In saying this I am not having a go at Denis Walsh but I have seen nothing to suggest that the team coaching or tactics are any improvement.
I think also Zulu you seem to be having a senior moment about the origins of the strike and justification for it. Remember the interviews with Shannon and O'Flynn where the clear implication was that Ger Mac had not a clue and was slightly senile. Remember Sean Og saying that if the "set up" had been right Kilkenny would not have won the previous 2 finals.  And you seem to have forgotten the press conference and other occasions where ad nauseum we were told this was all for the future of Cork hurling and when the tune needed to be changed we were told it was not really about Ger Mac but about the malign CB. 

The facts are Zulu that after 2006 Cork needed to rebuild. I don't think Ger Mac was the right person to select as manager but his track record stands any comparison with that of Denis Walshe. What is clear from Donal Og's book, interviews with Sean Og and from Gerald himself was that from day one the players did not co-operate with him and thus it was difficult to achieve anything. You may argue that if the players did not want him he should not be there but this is to give a veto to any bunch of players over who manages them and this has implications for the GAA at all levels.

Had Cork won the MF and beaten Kilkenny we would have plenty from those who supported the strike crowing about how the strike was justified.  Indeed Shannon was already on his perch after the win over Tipp. But as results are no better the players and particularly the main strike leaders may just have to admit what they could not admit 2 years ago – that they just are not good enough and that the glory days of 2004/5 are gone. No loss of face in this and at their best Cork played great hurling  and deserved their success . But a little humility 2 years back would have avoided a nasty strike – the divisions from which it will take time to recover. And it would have have avoided one of the nastiest hounding and bullying of a decent man who gave as much to Cork hurling as anyone.
The strike was unnecessary, connected to a broader agenda and did nothing for Cork hurling – either short or long term. Those who supported it should accept that but I doubt Zulu if you are a man who will ever put down the spade!!!!

[Zulu]

I am amazed Zulu that you are trying to suggest that Cork's results this year were any better than other years – granted they took the league a bit more seriously than for some time and Kilkenny did not.

They are better than recent years, surely that is a fact? I'm not saying that this has anything to do with the strike, it is others who are trying to link the strike with recent results by saying that the results haven't improved and this proves it was only the players fault for not performing under Gerald. Given that we are two years down the road and the same players are playing for Cork (by and large) but Tipp, Galway and Kilkenny have all gotten stronger that is a ridiculous thing to say.

think also Zulu you seem to be having a senior moment about the origins of the strike and justification for it. Remember the interviews with Shannon and O'Flynn where the clear implication was that Ger Mac had not a clue and was slightly senile. Remember Sean Og saying that if the "set up" had been right Kilkenny would not have won the previous 2 finals.  And you seem to have forgotten the press conference and other occasions where ad nauseum we were told this was all for the future of Cork hurling and when the tune needed to be changed we were told it was not really about Ger Mac but about the malign CB.

I've told you why I supported the strike, which had little to do with Gerald's abilities as a coach. Again I won't go back over all that as it won't get us anywhere, the bottom line is that Cork are playing close enough to their abilities at the moment and that is all that can be asked of them, what their beating by Kilkenny has to do with anything is beyond me. As I pointed out already I didn't try to use any good performance ny teh Cork hurlers since teh strike as justification for it as I don't think there is any link.

The facts are Zulu that after 2006 Cork needed to rebuild. I don't think Ger Mac was the right person to select as manager but his track record stands any comparison with that of Denis Walshe. What is clear from Donal Og's book, interviews with Sean Og and from Gerald himself was that from day one the players did not co-operate with him and thus it was difficult to achieve anything. You may argue that if the players did not want him he should not be there but this is to give a veto to any bunch of players over who manages them and this has implications for the GAA at all levels.

I agree Cork needed to rebuild but they didn't have anything to rebuild with and still don't. Players should always have an input into who manages them, that is not to say they should chose him or be bale to get rid of him at the drop of a hat but they are intelligent people who will have to work with him so it makes sense that they are consulted.

Had Cork won the MF and beaten Kilkenny we would have plenty from those who supported the strike crowing about how the strike was justified.

Not me, and those that are trying to link yesterday's game with the strike are coming across as fairly petty.

But as results are no better the players and particularly the main strike leaders may just have to admit what they could not admit 2 years ago – that they just are not good enough and that the glory days of 2004/5 are gone.

No team should ever admit that and I don't think Cork were a spent force two years ago, they had a damn site better chance of winning it then than they do now.

And it would have have avoided one of the nastiest hounding and bullying of a decent man who gave as much to Cork hurling as anyone.

Nothing to do with the CB I suppose or indeed the wonderful 'grassroots' who went with the players when push came to shove.

The strike was unnecessary, connected to a broader agenda and did nothing for Cork hurling – either short or long term. Those who supported it should accept that but I doubt Zulu if you are a man who will ever put down the spade!!!!

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it but it ain't a fact and I've already pointed out some of the good things to come from it. If nothing else it gave a bloody nose to a CB that had forgotten what it's purpose in the GAA world is, you're entitled to disagree but it doesn't appear that anyone has moved in any respects from then so it hardly seems worth continuing this.