McCarthy admits he does not have backing of Cork hurlers

[heffo]

Exactly Are we all in violent agreement here?

I thought there was some notion that the beating yesterday somehow put the tin hat on the Cork lads actions back then.

I'm saying you can't prove or disprove whether they were right or wrong BACK THEN on the basis of a game two years later.

But what we can say is that Cork have not avanced as a result of staging yet another strike in terms of their perforamce against KK in 2008 as compared with 2010 ?. 

I think that's a more valid observation, certainly, but how much of that is miles on the clock, versus a continually refreshed Kilkenny team? The core observation is valid though. Cork 2008 were closer to Kilkenny 2008 than Cork 2010 were to Kilkenny 2010.

Maybe it's Kilkenny that have advanced at a faster rate though?

Even using their Munster & Ulster opponents as a yardstick though, how have they progressed?

Beaten by an average enough Waterford team by the standards of the last eight or so years, poor against Antrim...

[theskull1]

A lie, plain and simple. They were doing for the good of their own (the senior) Cork hurling team.

Careful Zulu...that could be read in different ways   


I don't see why you decribe those of us who hold such disregard for the actions of the players against GMcC as defenders of the CCB. That is not how I see myself for starters

Cork hurling development may very well have been on the wain so the county teams fortunes may very well have plummeted IF all the protaganists left the stage. But that would have been a collective decision by a delusioned group of people who blamed one man for their inability to remain at AI winning level. The past two years in my opinion have shown that to be the case. If Ger McCarthy was that bad I would have expected a detectable change in the performance level of that group of players but that did not happen. I'm sure in the players mind they knew they had to show an improvement to back up what they believed but their bodies just weren't up to it.

[magpie seanie]

Zulu - what did the strike achieve?

And by the way they did say there were taking their action for the the good of Cork hurling. It was a lie alright but they did say it.

[orangeman]

But sure Frank is still sitting on the bench beig his usual efficient self. And he will be, even after the protaganists have departed the stage.

Which I presume you think is a good thing? 

I didn't say that it is a good thing so don't presume. But seeing as the main reason for the strike was Frank and the power of the CB ( which the stikers told us was one and the same thing ) and that as soon as Gerald resigned the boyos went back and hurled away with Frank still in situ, it made and makes their claims look silly.

[heffo]

And how did I get tagged as the Cork player man?  Reillers et al, get your arses in here and do your job

I also find it ironic that the defenders of the CCB are ignoring the fact that Kilkenny have been very successful at underage over the past 10 years while Cork haven't won a minor or U21 in that time, but in fairness that's Donal Og's fault too I suppose.
if they had faced down the players is beyond me. Have ye not seen how Limerick has panned out?

Well maybe if Donal Óg hadn't turfed all those cases of Lucozade over the fence into the Dublin end during a championship game in PUC two years ago and then threatening to walk off the pitch (even if it was the AI final) if the CCB produced any Lucozade thereby cancelling the CCB's funding for U21/Minor teams...they might've won.

What good came out of that except some high profile players lining their pockets? Was that for the good of the GAA in Cork?

[orangeman]

Exactly Are we all in violent agreement here?

I thought there was some notion that the beating yesterday somehow put the tin hat on the Cork lads actions back then.

I'm saying you can't prove or disprove whether they were right or wrong BACK THEN on the basis of a game two years later.

But what we can say is that Cork have not avanced as a result of staging yet another strike in terms of their perforamce against KK in 2008 as compared with 2010 ?. 

I think that's a more valid observation, certainly, but how much of that is miles on the clock, versus a continually refreshed Kilkenny team? The core observation is valid though. Cork 2008 were closer to Kilkenny 2008 than Cork 2010 were to Kilkenny 2010.

Maybe it's Kilkenny that have advanced at a faster rate though?

Even using their Munster & Ulster opponents as a yardstick though, how have they progressed?

Beaten by an average enough Waterford team by the standards of the last eight or so years, poor against Antrim...

No they weren't. Sure they were only in first gear, weren't they ?.

[heffo]

Exactly Are we all in violent agreement here?

I thought there was some notion that the beating yesterday somehow put the tin hat on the Cork lads actions back then.

I'm saying you can't prove or disprove whether they were right or wrong BACK THEN on the basis of a game two years later.

But what we can say is that Cork have not avanced as a result of staging yet another strike in terms of their perforamce against KK in 2008 as compared with 2010 ?. 

I think that's a more valid observation, certainly, but how much of that is miles on the clock, versus a continually refreshed Kilkenny team? The core observation is valid though. Cork 2008 were closer to Kilkenny 2008 than Cork 2010 were to Kilkenny 2010.

Maybe it's Kilkenny that have advanced at a faster rate though?

Even using their Munster & Ulster opponents as a yardstick though, how have they progressed?

Beaten by an average enough Waterford team by the standards of the last eight or so years, poor against Antrim...

No they weren't. Sure they were only in first gear, weren't they ?.

I believe so - according to Reiller's sources anyway.

They were also the better team than Waterford according to Reillers - he didn't offer any explanation on this, so I'll have to take him at his word.

[Zulu]

And by the way they did say there were taking their action for the the good of Cork hurling.

As in the Cork hurling team. I think it is wrong to try and suggest that they were saying that Cork hurling across the board would be improved if Gerald left the stage, that is putting a spin on things IMO.

I don't see why you decribe those of us who hold such disregard for the actions of the players against GMcC as defenders of the CCB. That is not how I see myself for starters

We won't go into the small print of the strike again but my support for the strike was based on the actions of the CCB and not the abilities, or lack thereof of Gerald. I can accept the view that players shouldn't go on strike but I believed and still believe the players had to when dealing with the CCB.

Cork hurling development may very well have been on the wain so the county teams fortunes may very well have plummeted IF all the protaganists left the stage. But that would have been a collective decision by a delusioned group of people who blamed one man for their inability to remain at AI winning level.

I don't think they blamed one man, they felt he wasn't the man to get the best out of them but their 'best' wouldn't necessarily be enough to win AI's. I certainly never expected them to start winning AI's once Gerald left but I do think they have improved a bit under Walsh.

As I pointed out at the time if I was coaching a team and they no longer wanted to play for me then I would leave. It wouldn't matter to me why because my only role is to get the best out of them, so regardless of my abilities as a coach if the players don't want me I can't get the best out of them. This was the case with Gerald, whether he was a good coach or not didn't matter becasue he couldn't be a good coach with this group of players.

Zulu - what did the strike achieve?

It brought democracy back to Cork GAA, it got the clubs to take back control of the GAA in their county as evidenced by the club forum that was set up. Junior clubs in Cork now have a single vote, it gave the CCB a badly needed wake up call, and Cork got to their first Munster final since before Gerald.

[orangeman]

And by the way they did say there were taking their action for the the good of Cork hurling.

As in the Cork hurling team. I think it is wrong to try and suggest that they were saying that Cork hurling across the board would be improved if Gerald left the stage, that is putting a spin on things IMO.

I don't see why you decribe those of us who hold such disregard for the actions of the players against GMcC as defenders of the CCB. That is not how I see myself for starters

We won't go into the small print of the strike again but my support for the strike was based on the actions of the CCB and not the abilities, or lack thereof of Gerald. I can accept the view that players shouldn't go on strike but I believed and still believe the players had to when dealing with the CCB.

Cork hurling development may very well have been on the wain so the county teams fortunes may very well have plummeted IF all the protaganists left the stage. But that would have been a collective decision by a delusioned group of people who blamed one man for their inability to remain at AI winning level.

I don't think they blamed one man, they felt he wasn't the man to get the best out of them but their 'best' wouldn't necessarily be enough to win AI's. I certainly never expected them to start winning AI's once Gerald left but I do think they have improved a bit under Walsh.

As I pointed out at the time if I was coaching a team and they no longer wanted to play for me then I would leave. It wouldn't matter to me why because my only role is to get the best out of them, so regardless of my abilities as a coach if the players don't want me I can't get the best out of them. This was the case with Gerald, whether he was a good coach or not didn't matter becasue he couldn't be a good coach with this group of players.

Zulu - what did the strike achieve?

It brought democracy back to Cork GAA, it got the clubs to take back control of the GAA in their county as evidenced by the club forum that was set up. Junior clubs in Cork now have a single vote, it gave the CCB a badly needed wake up call, and Cork got to their first Munster final since before Gerald.

Were those the objectives ?.

[Zulu]

I didn't say that it is a good thing so don't presume.

What was your point so?

But seeing as the main reason for the strike was Frank and the power of the CB ( which the stikers told us was one and the same thing ) and that as soon as Gerald resigned the boyos went back and hurled away with Frank still in situ, it made and makes their claims look silly.

No it didn't, and there have been changes in the running of Cork GAa as a result of the strike.

Well maybe if Donal Óg hadn't turfed all those cases of Lucozade over the fence into the Dublin end during a championship game in PUC two years ago and then threatening to walk off the pitch (even if it was the AI final) if the CCB produced any Lucozade thereby cancelling the CCB's funding for U21/Minor teams...they might've won.

Come on heffo, whatever about the rights and wrongs of that the underage development in Cork has been a scandal. There has been no plan to develop underage football or hurling in Cork for the past 10 years and the results of that are there to be seen.

[Zulu]

Were those the objectives ?.

You tell me, you lads seem to know exactly why the players did what they did.

[AZOffaly]

Were those the objectives ?.

You tell me, you lads seem to know exactly why the players did what they did.

Zulu, you're doing grand fighting this long running battle, but I do think you're wrong on one point. Donal Óg and others have said a few times that the strikers also had to 'think of the fellas coming after them.' They definitely beat that drum.

But I would consider that that was one aim that was, at least partially, met for the reasons you outlined above. I think the Cork CB will think twice about trying to impose things on the county team that the team do not want them to. It doesn't have to be pandering to the players, it just has to be consultative, like adults. Sometimes hard decisions will have to be made for financial reasons or whatever, but if it is at least explained to the players, it will take the sting out of it. Less dictatorship, more consultation. I think that's one good thing that it may have achieved, and it does benefit 'The fellas coming after them'.

[dowling]

Appreciate all that you were saying AZ and where you've come from on this but at some point there has to be an appraisal of the strike relative to Cork hurling. Even if Kilkenny hurling is better it would be impossible to argue that Cork has improved. There have been massive consequences from the strike, and not just inside Cork, but the one consequence implied by the strikers was improvement. It's not the result I'm tying to the strike, it's the overall performances of the Cork team. There was an excellent display against Tipp but in general I don't think anyone really expected that or has seen them as a threat to Kilkenny this year. On the match thread the unity within Kilkenny is highlighted, among players and also within the county. I see neither in Cork. While there may have never been that degree of unity in Cork anyway the strike actually made any disunity worse.
I think your diplomacy and maturity is to be complimented AZ.
As for Zulu trying to make a case that Cork are now better. A voice in the wilderness and I doubt even Reillers could agree with him.
Then to deny what the strikers said they were about, to change it and agree they said certain things but everyone's interpretation was wrong; as Reillers would say, 'like come on FFS'. How can you debate with such constant denial? Perhaps Zulu you would like to quote someone else who supports your view of an improved Cork.

[imtommygunn]

It is not exactly the same squad of players who striked though.

Pre strike you had the rock, a fit Jerry O'Connor, possibly even Brian Corcoran and Joe Deane and Timmy McCarthy as well.

So comparing this Cork team you have ...
Rock vs Cadogan
Deane vs Horgan / O'Sullivan junior
Corcoran vs O'Halpin
Timmy McCarthy vs whoever

It ain't a like for like comparison. Maybe my timelines are a little out on those players however that's the Cork we really remember and it is a different team now.

You can't blame any strikes for losing players and players being a few years older and a yard or two shorter of pace.

(Sean Og, Ben O'Connor, Jerry O'Connor and maybe Brendan Murphy ain't what they were 2 years ago either. I don't believe Donal Og has the reactions he had a couple of years ago either)

[Zulu]

As for Zulu trying to make a case that Cork are now better. A voice in the wilderness and I doubt even Reillers could agree with him.

It is you who are trying to say they are worse, which is ridiculous. You have repeatedly come on here trying to tie any poor Cork result to the strike but you ignore the good results. You also tried to say the older players should be dropped after any poor performance yet fail to acknowledge their good performances. I always said that I didn't support the strike because Cork were underperforming, I supported the strike because of the actions of the CCB and the reality that Gerald couldn't be the best man for the job once he lost the dressing room. If Cork never win another game my position re the strike won't change because the players were right to do what they did regardless of how they perform from here on in.

Unlike you and a few others I never came on here gloating when Cork did well  in the league. I challenged the like of you to comment on the Tipp game because you had been so quick to comment before when Cork lost but I never used that win as a justification for the strike as I don't think they are connected.

Zulu, you're doing grand fighting this long running battle, but I do think you're wrong on one point. Donal Óg and others have said a few times that the strikers also had to 'think of the fellas coming after them.' They definitely beat that drum.

You're right AZ but that is different than doing it for the good of Cork hurling IMO. They were standing up for the best interests of the Cork senior hurling panel, now and into the future. And although I think that will serve Cork hurling in good stead I don't think the players actually fighting for the overall good of Cork hurling, nor should they have.

Perhaps Zulu you would like to quote someone else who supports your view of an improved Cork.

I don't need to, I've a mind of my own. Cork reached a Munster final beating the beaten AI finalists along the way, they never achieved that under Gerald so that appears to be improvement, does it not?

It's pointless discussing tis with you anyway, unless Cork won the AI you would argue that the strike was pointless and even then I'm sure you'd try, as you did after the Tipp game to credit Gerald fo rthat too.