Tony Considine Sets His Standards.

[Bud Wiser]

Anyone think Considine has set the bar a bit high for himself by his criticism, (and that is what it was) of Davy Fitz?

Me thinks Fitzy is right in that there is no place for such sniping and that the promotion of hurling does not need this type of crap.  Here is what all knowing Mr Considine said:

"This was the worst performance from a team in white-and-blue in over ten years.. The Waterford selectors, Davy Fitzgerald, Peter Queally and Maurice Geary set up this team all wrong yesterday. Stephen Molumphy at centre forward? Eoin Kelly the best full forward this year at corner forward? Wasn't that telling Noel Hickey that Kelly was afraid of him? Starting Dan Shanahan after the year he's had?  Seamus Prendergast likewise?  They looked liike a tired team, perhaps over-cooked, certainly not ready for the game of their lives. Waterford had nothing, no plan, no tactics, no idea"

I think anyone who knows anything about hurling or saw the game would agree that whether Eoin Kelly started at full forward or full back it would not have made one blind bit of difference.  If I was training a team tomorrow one of the first things I would look at is the pace and number of training sessions that the Cats undertake in the build up to the big day. Maybe there is a need for a coming together, a meeting of minds on this?  The number of hurling coaches are scarce enough without criticising the ones we have.  Or has TC a point, do we need more people like him who knows exactly how to win an All-Ireland?

[EddieMerx]

Anyone with any knowledge on hurling would know that

A. Considine was waiting for the opportunity to have a real go at Fitzy
B. No matter what team played the Cats when they are playing like that would be destroyed.

Yes we can all question the starting of big Dan and the moving of Kelly from full to corner, but if he hadn't of strated the hurler of the year 2007 then we would all be saying that maybe Dan had a big game in him and also why did he leave his best forward on the best full back in the game... it's very hard to criticise a manager when a team gets such a hiding because no matter what he could have done could reverse a 23 point difference. If Waterford had of lost by a point or two then strange as may seem it's easier to point out what the manager did wrong.

[dodo]

Would he have been better off questioning bringing Eoin Kelly out to midfield where he was totally at sea. Considine let himself down badly with this article, it's not in the least bit subtle about getting wee Davy when he is down.

[orangeman]

There is history between these 2 boys and it's sad to listen to.

What was their row about really ?

[INDIANA]

i think considine is a w***** of the highest order, but he raises some very valid points. While it wouldn't have made any difference, it set the tone for the day that waterford felt their best players couldn't match the cats best beforehand. I would also question the starting of some waterford players who were totally out of form. seems to me that the waterford players run that team and davy didn;t drop a few big names to appease the players because the likes of cody would have dropped them

[Zulu]

Easy to say Cody would have dropped them as he has the replacements to come in, Davy doesn't have that luxury. Besides these lads got Waterford to numerous AI semi finals and despite the poor form of some to this years AI, so I think it was fair to give them a go on the big day. Where Davy feel down IMO was he was too slow to make changes, Dan for example should have been off after 20min. or into full forward. I'm no fan of Davy, as a personality or manager, but it's easy to criticise after the event, the bottom line is that some of the Waterford team wouldn't make the Kilkenny panel. And when a vastly superior team turns it on against an inferior oppostion their is nothing a manager can do except hope his players on the field fight for their pride.

[Asal Mor]

I read that article and thought Considine sounded like a bitter man who was taking great pleasure from putting the boot into Davy. Kilkenny gave the greatest display ever, totally overpowered the deise physically,  and Waterford didnt have the players to compete, whatever way you juggled them.  

Davy overachieved with an ageing team. He came in after they had been beaten well and without a fight by a decent Clare team. Davy breathed the life back into them, freshened the whole scene up and Waterford went further than they had ever been before.  He achieved this even though some of Waterford's greatest servants - Shanahan, Prendergast and Flynn especially- were nowhere near their former excellence. Kilkenny taking the game to a new level was what last Sunday was about, and they suffocated their opponents to such a point that Davy was just fighting back the tide with a pitchfork.

[Asal Mor]

With regard to not starting Dan and Prendergast who could Davy have brought in? None of the Waterford subs made an impact when introduced.

[Zulu]

I read that article and thought Considine sounded like a bitter man who was taking great pleasure from putting the boot into Davy. Kilkenny gave the greatest display ever, totally overpowered the deise physically,  and Waterford didnt have the players to compete, whatever way you juggled them.  

Davy overachieved with an ageing team. He came in after they had been beaten well and without a fight by a decent Clare team. Davy breathed the life back into them, freshened the whole scene up and Waterford went further than they had ever been before.  He achieved this even though some of Waterford's greatest servants - Shanahan, Prendergast and Flynn especially- were nowhere near their former excellence. Kilkenny taking the game to a new level was what last Sunday was about, and they suffocated their opponents to such a point that Davy was just fighting back the tide with a pitchfork.

In fairness Davy also got the handiest run possible, so I'm not sure you can say he breathed new life into them. Waterford were poor against both Antrim and Wexford, while the performance against Tipp wasn't bad, it wasn't great either. IMO Davy made little improvement to Waterford in his time there, though it's questionable if anyone could have done any better.

[Zulu]

If I was training a team tomorrow one of the first things I would look at is the pace and number of training sessions that the Cats undertake in the build up to the big day. Maybe there is a need for a coming together, a meeting of minds on this?

Why are you under the impression other county's aren't being prepared properly?

The number of hurling coaches are scarce enough without criticising the ones we have.  Or has TC a point, do we need more people like him who knows exactly how to win an All-Ireland?

TC is IMO a bullshit artist and what county exactly did he lead to AI success? As for not criticising hurling coaches, what were you on when you typed that?

[neilthemac]

all irelands are won during the winter when players look after themselves and train really hard in the gym and ball alley. you canot play catch up in the summer with these

Kilkenny seniors have brought the strength and power in hurling to unprecedented levels. every other county now has to play catch up.

with underage teams, other counties have finally realised that young players need the highest level of coaching from a young age in order to stop bad habits and perform the skills at a high level

[Bud Wiser]

Why are you under the impression other county's aren't being prepared properly?

And you have the gall to ask what was I on when I typed that?

The point I was making is that it is unfair to criticise coaches, or at least to the level that TC used on DF until there is a level playing pitch in terms of training and development in all counties. I am entitled to that opinion without being asked what I am on. What county are you from, I'm from Laois and I would actually have to be on something if I were to believe that if Laois were to play Kilkenny in next years championship that Laois would be anywhere near the fitness levels (forget about the skill for a minute) of the Cats.

Look at the fitness requirement for referees? All of them are brought to DCU and undergo VO2 max tests, ECG's and various other tests to ensure they are at peak fitness to referee a match which sometimes, or a lot of times means that the ref, though older is fitter than some of the players.  Because Kilkennty seem to have the training program down to a fine art I do not see anything at all wrong with the idea that other counties should replicate it.  As a matter of fact, one day a few years ago Charlie Carter was captain of Kilkenny and the next day he was dropped and I would see a real benefit if some of the €9 Million that is invested annually in coaching and development being gioven to someone like him and sending him into Carlow or Laois to pass on some of the tricks of the trade even if it was in a lesser capacity than manager.   It is just my opinion, but then again maybe I am on something and don't know about it.

[Zulu]

My question 'what were you on?' refered to your implication that hurling coaches shouldn't be criticized due to there being so few of them, which is pure rubbish on so many levels IMO. As for your point about replicating Kilkenny's preparation, well again I'm sorry but that shows a striking lack of knowledge of what it takes to physically prepare teams. Cork, Clare, Galway, Tipp and Waterford (probably) were all as fit as Kilkenny this year, of that you can be sure. And they are all working off the same levels of preparation and coaching that Kilkenny are, I personally know some of the back room staff in 3 of those counties and they have highly respected coaches (both physical and hurling) directing their preparation.

            Now Laois may not be as fit as Kilkenny but that is a result of a number of factors all of which could be corrected without copying Kilkenny's exact programme.

Look at the fitness requirement for referees? All of them are brought to DCU and undergo VO2 max tests, ECG's and various other tests to ensure they are at peak fitness to referee a match which sometimes, or a lot of times means that the ref, though older is fitter than some of the players.  Because Kilkennty seem to have the training program down to a fine art I do not see anything at all wrong with the idea that other counties should replicate it.

Again this is a classic example of a guy who has a few facts but not the knowledge to properly interpret them and thus makes 2 + 2 = 10001. I'm not trying to insult you here Bud and of course you're entitled to your opinion but counties don't need to go to DCU for VO2max tests to be professional or know if their players are fit. Kilkenny are dominant now simply because they have an extremely talented bunch of players at the moment, not because they are fitter or stronger than the rest.

[Bud Wiser]

Oh right so, now I understand, Kilkenny were not fitter and faster to the ball and in particular stronger in the challenge than Waterford last Sunday!

You are right on one thing, I have no experience whatsoever of coaching, none, nor have I the direct involvement with backroom staff that you boast about.

What county are you from so that I can assess how good the backroom staff you are on first name terms with?
How much of the €9 Million that was given out last year did your county get??  This is the very reason I have made another post on how this money is spent and I have been trying to get someone who knows everything to tell me how much their county gets.  Can you tell me, or ask those you know personally on your backroom staff how they spent almost half a million last year on development of hurling and football in your county?  You are absolutely correct, 100% correct, I only know a little bit about this and that is precisely why I am asking the questions.

[INDIANA]

Its like this Bud the top 8 counties in hurling and football are at exactly the same level of fitness, that i can absolutely guarantee. its the skillset the cats have that seperates them from the rest, similar to kerry and tyrone at football. I know  for a fact  that a lot of the dublin hurlers could run the legs off some of the the kilkenny players but wouldn't hold a candle to them in the skills stakes.
Kilkenny appear stronger in the physical stakes because they always manage to pick the ball up in tight spaces, thats more down to skill than strength in my view. They woin aerial ball easier as well, thats down to coaching rather than physicality. tommy walsh often beats his man in the air simply due to timing rather than muscling guys outs of the way. I 've actually seen a number of the dublin based kilkenny lads in the gym and while they are all strong lads , they aren't huge by any means.