2008 Ulster Club Championships

[WolfeTone]

The reason i quoted from the rulebook was to counteract screens statement that the rule was "utter nonsense", as if i was making it up?!

[Jinxy]

I hope I didn't, no. Your recall of Lyons and O'Neill is different than mine. Fire up the video there so we can have a look at it. Failing that I will think of other examples from the Royals.

My point was that behaviour such as Conway's isn't gradually gaining acceptance as you put it. Rather it has been an accepted part of Gaelic football since Paddy joined the army. As long, of course, as it's a player from your team seeking to gain advantage. Everyone else who does it is a cheating ****.

I'd love to know what your recall was like.

[saffron sam2]

I hope I didn't, no. Your recall of Lyons and O'Neill is different than mine. Fire up the video there so we can have a look at it. Failing that I will think of other examples from the Royals.

My point was that behaviour such as Conway's isn't gradually gaining acceptance as you put it. Rather it has been an accepted part of Gaelic football since Paddy joined the army. As long, of course, as it's a player from your team seeking to gain advantage. Everyone else who does it is a cheating ****.

I'd love to know what your recall was like.

Had you read back a bit further, you would know what my recall was like.

To save you the bother your picture isn't far off the mark.

[saffron sam2]

No need for the video - you can take my word for it.

I disagree completely that feigning injury has long been a part of the game, unless Paddy joined the army in this millennium. It was unheard of altogether before the eighties. Spillane was the first to flirt with it on one celebrated occasion. It was celebrated because it was new and unheard of. Barney Rock stayed down a few seconds too long once and was famously hauled to his feet by Mick Holden. You'll struggle to find anyone who can give you a third example from the eighties or any at all before that. It was rare enough to be remarkable through the nineties, with only a few notable exponents plying their trade (Martin Lynch comes to mind). But it's out of all control now.

I'm happy enough to give you Lyons. My memory in this case isn't correct.

So did Paddy join the army in the 80s? Anyone who watched Spillane's footballing career would know that was an integral part of his game from before he ever played for Kerry Seniors. Ask Brendan Tully who was sent off in an under-21 semi-final in '74 for allegedly striking Spillane. Ask Gabriel Bradley how Spillane behaved in the AI semi-final of '76. To say that it is recent is wrong. The MacRory Cup final in 1965 was decided by a controversial penalty when the attacking player dived (something he happily admits to know). Greater coverage of games, more camera at games catching more incidents means that it appears more prevalent. Do you think incidents like Conway's or O'Mahoney's are more common now than they were in the 70s. Would Conway's antics even merit a mention here if it hadn't been caught on camera?

One of the main problems is that some of the greatest exponents of such practices (i.e. the biggest cheats) are lauded as some of the all-time greats of the game.

SS, you seem to be conflating two entirely separate kinds of  cheating - feigning injury and feigning being fouled in order to get a free. Neither is acceptable, but one is an order of magnitude more heinous than the other. The incidence of both has increased massively in recent times, but especially the injury feigning.  I stand by my assertion that feigning injury was practically unheard of before the 80s and quite rare until recent times. In fact it was complete anathema to the culture and ethos of the game, where to even admit injury was to exhibit weakness and vulnerability. I can assure you that I saw and participated in more games in the seventies than I do now, even when most of what I see I see on television. I can't recall ever seeing a  player pretend to be hurt in a game I watched and definitely never saw it in a game I played in.

I do acknowledge one influence of television as I mentioned in a previous post - television is instrumental in the rapid spread of the tendency.

I like debating with people who have an excellent command of written expression and by introducing the word 'conflating' into the debate, you have my full attention. However I don't think that I am conflating anything. As you say feigning injury and feigning being fouled in order to get a free are both cheating. You can split hairs as to which is more serious. Both, by their nature, are likely to result in an innocent party being sent-off - one immediately, the other eventually. Both are likely to have a massive outcome on the bearing and result of a game. Conway's actions, whilst reprehensible, were no worse than many of the other antics that took place during the game. All were cheating. How many other players, in teams throughout the country at all levels would have done exactly what Conway did and be lauded for it by their team mates and supporters? Players are coached to do this. I quoted an Irish News journalist in another thread when he said that the entirely laudable 'will to win' had been replaced by a 'win at all costs' attitude. When you hear of a school team using the mantra 'whatever it takes', you have to realise there are serious issues in the game.

As to the frequency of such incidents, I would struggle to name an All-Ireland winning team from the last 25 years that would have won their All-Irelands without fielding players who were prepared to feign injury or feign being fouled to get a free.

I didn't win much as a footballer and am unlikely to now, but it genuinely doesn't sit easily with me the lengths that teams have to be prepared to go to to be successful.

For a middle-aged man, you are being incredibly naive. Is it because I shouted at your mate yesterday?

No need to get personal. I'm far from naive. I don't understand the last question.

It wasn't meant as personal, but I can't see why you think this is only a recent phenomenom. The last question is a reference to the debate re. bcb1's sending-off. I am not accusing him of lying and won't be. His interpretation of the incident is differnet than mine. we won't agree. You wouldn't be calling him a liar if you didn't agree with his take on the incident. Nor do I believe I have misinterpreted what I saw. But becuase, you appear to know bcb1 (who has always been an excellent poster btw), it seems to cloud your judgement.

On a sort of related topic, but to give me an opportunity to further my point, do you remember Kevin Foley's tackle on Mickey Linden? What is your take on that one? Then I'll give you mine. Then we'll try to come up with Kevin Foley's may be.

[Hardy]

Reasonable post SS. A few things:

There's a world of difference between feigning injury and diving for a free. The main one is that the former is ultimately very dangerous, when it cheapens the perception of injury to the extent that it leads, as it inevitably will, to a genuinely injured player failing to get treatment or being manhandled because he's assumed to be feigning. Imagine a player with a neck injury being pulled and dragged by an opponent who assumes he's cheating. Diving for a foul is abominable as well, of course. Just not to the same degree.

If you insist that diving was prevalent in games I played in (at a very low level, I must add) and watched from the sideline and stands and I didn't notice it, you'll have to give me some examples and we'll take it from there. I expect you may be able to bring up a few examples of pretending to be fouled. I'll be amazed if you can give me even one example of injury feigning pre 1990, bar the two mild examples I mentioned earlier.

Strangely, I don't actually remember Foley's tackle on Linden (or maybe not strangely - we tend to block out uncomfortable memories). I was at the game and don't remember the incident. I've seen the video a number of times and don't recall ever remarking on it (maybe it's not caught on camera). However, I know it's a cause celebre (I'm glad you enjoy words like that as much as I do) among Down followers and I presume it must be with good reason. I've heard that a few teeth went missing in the incident. (The incident years later with Francie makes me wonder if Mickey is a little careless with his teeth. Just a joke - I have the greatest respect for Mickey). So I'm afraid I can't comment on that one, but I'll accept the word of Down men and others here who saw and remember it.

Anyway, my only point about the BCB incident - I think my position is reasonable. I didn't see it myself (or don't remember it if I did), so if I'm put on the spot I'll have to take the word of the participant above the interpretation of a spectator some distance away, with no disrespect to the spectator. I could be wrong. BCB could even be wrong, but I'm finding it hard to rationalise how he could be without distorting the facts.

I don't know BCB, as it happens - a situation I've often threatened, but haven't got around to rectifying over a few pints sometime, as we live not too far from each other.

[saffron sam2]

Reasonable post SS. A few things:

There's a world of difference between feigning injury and diving for a free. The main one is that the former is ultimately very dangerous, when it cheapens the perception of injury to the extent that it leads, as it inevitably will, to a genuinely injured player failing to get treatment or being manhandled because he's assumed to be feigning. Imagine a player with a neck injury being pulled and dragged by an opponent who assumes he's cheating. Diving for a foul is abominable as well, of course. Just not to the same degree.

If you insist that diving was prevalent in games I played in (at a very low level, I must add) and watched from the sideline and stands and I didn't notice it, you'll have to give me some examples and we'll take it from there. I expect you may be able to bring up a few examples of pretending to be fouled. I'll be amazed if you can give me even one example of injury feigning pre 1990, bar the two mild examples I mentioned earlier.

Strangely, I don't actually remember Foley's tackle on Linden (or maybe not strangely - we tend to block out uncomfortable memories). I was at the game and don't remember the incident. I've seen the video a number of times and don't recall ever remarking on it (maybe it's not caught on camera). However, I know it's a cause celebre (I'm glad you enjoy words like that as much as I do) among Down followers and I presume it must be with good reason. I've heard that a few teeth went missing in the incident. (The incident years later with Francie makes me wonder if Mickey is a little careless with his teeth. Just a joke - I have the greatest respect for Mickey). So I'm afraid I can't comment on that one, but I'll accept the word of Down men and others here who saw and remember it.

Anyway, my only point about the BCB incident - I think my position is reasonable. I didn't see it myself (or don't remember it if I did), so if I'm put on the spot I'll have to take the word of the participant above the interpretation of a spectator some distance away, with no disrespect to the spectator. I could be wrong. BCB could even be wrong, but I'm finding it hard to rationalise how he could be without distorting the facts.

I don't know BCB, as it happens - a situation I've often threatened, but haven't got around to rectifying over a few pints sometime, as we live not too far from each other.

I have already given you two, both involving Pat Spillane in the 70s. I can also vaguely remember an incident involving Ger Power and Hugo Clerkin that resulted in Clerkin getting sent off. Now, there is a pattern already. Was Spillane the only one? Were Kerry the only team or just the first one? Is it a secret that O'Dwyer's Kerry teams had no problem bending rules, i.e. cheating? There won't be as many incidents to highlight, because there weren't as many games covered.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Declan Bogue, in today's Gaelic Life, and the referee on Sunday last:

Pull Up A Stool Martin, You Did Just Fine
(I'm on your side)

"Why do you see the speck in your neighbour's eye, when you do not notice the log in your own eye" - Matthew, 7:3

Here he comes strolling into the bar, the moustache waxed down, looking red-cheeked from exertion. It's Martin Sludden, the referee.
You might remember him from such games as last Sunday's Ulster Club Final. Or, if you're like me and like to head into enemy territory the odd time in search of GAA kicks, numerous Tyrone club matches. But pull up a stool there Marty, boy have we got a lot to get through.

First off, a confession. We all form opinions of people without even needing to know the slightest thing about them. Many and often are the times when I would pull the duffel coat up around my gills, tr**p into Healy Park, and mutter to another on the way into the stand "How d'ye think this'll go?" Sometimes, oh Jesus I can't believe I'm telling you this Martin, it must be the gin, they might go "it'll be pure dung. That Sludden man's refereeing. He'd spoil a good game." It embarrasses me to say, that I'd pass myself to my new best friend, nod, and say a curt "Aye, you're dead right."
So, you could say we have history Martin. What are you having anyway? Aye, we have history all right, albeit in a very loose and tenuous fashion.

I was there in Brewster Park last Sunday too. A big game, under lights, Champions League type atmosphere, county men all over the pitch, heavy hits going in everywhere, bodies flying. It must have been a nightmare to referee, I wasn't envious of you in the slightest.
We're getting on all right aren't we? Is it OK if I bring up the whole 'sendings off thing'? Maybe it's too soon.

Well, I'm no great fan of press boxes, I  like to get out there among the plain people of Ireland, to get up close and personal with halitosis sufferers, to try and learn what it feels like to pay £12 into a game, all that jazz. Basically, I'm a man of the people, unless those people include traffic-wardens, politicians, call-centre agents (been there, endured that), or coppers. Authority figures and jobsworths, basically.
I strayed from the point again Martin, how rude of me. Anyhow, I stood around the back of the stand, trying to catch a glimpse of how these teams warm up. You were there too, going through your runs, stretches, diligently preparing to do your level best. Every inch the professional in an amateur sport.

The the ball was in, the game was on, the fat was in the fire. I did the usual well-worn gag for a cousin beside me,  paraphrasing Micheál O'Hehir. "Fifty five minutes remaining in this match, hallelujlah!" The pace was frantic, the off-the-ball stuff was fierce.

You kept the head though. Too many games of this nature have become a farce, but you were there the whole time, keeping people right. Then the red cards. Oh yes, it's time. You consulted with your linesmen, you took counsel from officials closer to the incident. You did everything you could, and acted upon the information received.
For John Mc Entee's, a flock of Crossmaglen supporters were beside me. They saw the challenge and immediately said "Ah, John's going to walk for that." Didn't have the benefit of slow-motion replay you see! Then the game ended, and before I was even at the back of the stand again, a couch-surfing clubmate texted me. Let me read it out for you: 'Ref a jkr, john mc nvr touchd him, seen it on da box'. Television has made experts of us all! Who'd a thunk it?

I went in search of porter, and to thaw the bones out in the clubhouse. There were people talking Martin.
I don't wish to be telling tales out of school, but I heard words like 'disgrace'. I stood up for you though. Not just saying that because you're sitting beside me, but I put in a good word. Said you did a decent job. Said there wasn't much else you could have done, you can only referee from the angle you saw it.

Seriously though, a disgrace? That over-dramatic phrase was everywhere. Even some of the columnists inside here have said it. They need to get some perspective in life. This August gone by, Mary Harney promised a vaccine against cervical cancer for twelve-year-old girls. Brilliant! Weeks later, she turned around and said 'no can do', that there wasn't enough cash in the coffers.
This from a coalition government that spent €50 million on e-voting machines that were used once, and had to be scrapped. Fianna Fáil's Noel Dempsey described that figure as 'small change', yet they couldn't rustle up the €13 million to protect the health of the state's youth? That, my friend, is a disgrace.

Your thing last Sunday Martin? It was 'just one of those things'. No big deal, now drink up.

[Drumanee 1]

declan trying to hard to write like roy curtis with cliches,take advise declan roy is the most irritating journo out there and your heading in the same direction,don't be different for the sake of it.

[illdecide]

Good luck to Cross tomorrow...

[RedandGreenSniper]

Cross and Rhode a tasty 9/2 double with Paddy Powers, priced at 8/11 and 9/4 for the single bets respectively

[DoYerJob Linesman]

COME ON THE SHAMROCKS....YOU CAN DO IT!

[Stalin]

What time's this one start, is it aired live on tg4, or delayed?

[Doire abú]

Match called off!!

[Shortso79]

Dissappointed

Was leaving for the match at 1.30pm

At least it was called off before people started to travel

Probably be next week ?

[Doire abú]

I'd imagine so. Getting very close to Christmas to be playing football.