Collins or De Valera

[Evil Genius]

Carson was a non starter. NI was and is England's puppet.

Really? They didn't appear to think so around the Curragh...

[Evil Genius]

Even Dev was funnier than Frank.

I was referring to Edward Carson, not his son...

[ONeill]

Edward was some boy. Hated Ulster with a passion and got out as soon as he could.

[Hardy]

Sure there's a statue of him up there pointing the direction to the boat ...

Didn't he persecute Oscar Wilde as well.

[ONeill]

That's the funniest thing about it. They erected a statue to a man who depised them with gusto.

Oscar Wilde needs to be disabused.

[Evil Genius]

Edward was some boy. Hated Ulster with a passion and got out as soon as he could.

Really?   Some examples?  

[ONeill]

Some wiki quotes...

'Carson disliked many of Ulster's local characteristics and, in particular, the culture of Orangeism,....'

'He stated that their speeches reminding him of the unrolling of a mummy. All old bones and rotten rags...'

'After the partition of Ireland, Carson repeatedly warned Ulster Unionist leaders not to alienate northern Catholics, as he foresaw this would make Northern Ireland unstable. ' (which they didn't heed)

'He abhorred Ulster Protestantism and its congregation and thought they were fat.'

[Evil Genius]

Didn't he persecute Oscar Wilde as well.

Another myth. He was actually quite friendly with Wilde, on a personal/family basis. And he did not "persecute" (or even prosecute) Wilde. Rather, when Wilde brought a (hopeless) civil case against his real persecutor, the Marquis of Queensbury, Carson acted successfully for the defence.
Evidence given in Wilde's Civil case then laid him open to the criminal charges and conviction which eventually ruined him. Afaik, Carson actually tried to use his influence with the judiciary to achieve leniency for Wilde in the criminal case, but to no avail.

[Evil Genius]

Some wiki quotes...

'Carson disliked many of Ulster's local characteristics and, in particular, the culture of Orangeism,....'

There are many peculiarly Ulster characteristics which I dislike, but that is hardly the same as saying "I hate Ulster with a passion"

'He stated that their speeches reminding him of the unrolling of a mummy. All old bones and rotten rags...'

He didn't think much of some of his political colleagues. Find me a politician who differs? At least he didn't subsequently turn on them in a nasty and brutal Civil War.

'After the partition of Ireland, Carson repeatedly warned Ulster Unionist leaders not to alienate northern Catholics, as he foresaw this would make Northern Ireland unstable. ' (which they didn't heed)

He was a wise man, when many of his former colleagues weren't - hardly anything unprecedented about that. Nelson Mandela doesn't have a lot of time for many of Thabo Mbeki's policies (e.g. on AIDS, or Mugabe).

'He abhorred Ulster Protestantism and its congregation and thought they were fat.'

I'm none too keen on organised religion of any sect, myself, though for reasons other than obesity(!). I imagine he would have abhorred e.g. Ian Paisley, as I do, and would have been nauseated, as I was, by e.g. the fulsome tributes paid to Paisley on his retirement by politicians as varied as Tony Blair and Gerry Adams. 

Carson was a very complex character, who didn't conform to all the stereotypes one might have expected of him. For example, he was a supporter of both the Irish language and Gaelic Games, especially Hurling, which he played. (In fact, I think I saw somewhere that he might have been responsible in part for the drawing up of the rules of Hurling whilst at TCD, though I can't find confirmation of this)

Anyhow, whatever else I may think about him, I greatly admire Carson for his role in the political crisis leading up to the events of 1921, where his contribution was at least as significant (imo) as that of Collins, De Valera or Lloyd George. Which is why I wondered why he was the only major player not included in the Poll.

[ONeill]

I made that last quote up.

[Main Street]

I made that last quote up.

Not too far off though from the full wiki quote
[i']Ulster -  Carson had no special connection. Carson disliked many of Ulster's local characteristics and, in particular, the culture of Orangeism, although he had become an Orangeman at nineteen. He stated that their speeches reminding him of the unrolling of a mummy. All old bones and rotten rags.'[/i]

useless trivia -  The FAI offices in Merrion Sq use to be owned by Carson.

[Main Street]

How would you have leaned then/was right in hindsight?

How can anyone not old enough remember their stand on Dev or Collins in 1921 without the benefit of hindsight?

[ONeill]

Empathy.

[Hardy]

Didn't he persecute Oscar Wilde as well.

Another myth. He was actually quite friendly with Wilde, on a personal/family basis. And he did not "persecute" (or even prosecute) Wilde. Rather, when Wilde brought a (hopeless) civil case against his real persecutor, the Marquis of Queensbury, Carson acted successfully for the defence.
Evidence given in Wilde's Civil case then laid him open to the criminal charges and conviction which eventually ruined him. Afaik, Carson actually tried to use his influence with the judiciary to achieve leniency for Wilde in the criminal case, but to no avail.

Obviously it's true what they say about "you people"* and sense of humour.

Explanation: Prosecute/persecute was my little attempt at a (bad) punning joke. Your response reminds me of a Chinese man I knew (another bunch with no sense of humour) whose response to the three-legged chicken joke was to argue for half an hour that it made no sense as it was impossible for a chicken to have three legs. He was great fun at parties.

* Carsonites

[Farrandeelin]

Seen as it is about Collins v De Valera. Haven't all the political parties agreed with Collins on his signing of the treaty. Even FF and SF have too. Especially since the Republic of Ireland has given up her claim on the Six counties. Myself, I would classify myself against the treaty back in 1921. However there's no real party with that view anymore. It is indeed power at all costs for all of them!