Kerry v Cork - 2008 Munster final

[maddog]

Sendings off were ridiculous, none of them were justified, particularly in those conditions. Kerry now a dangerous wounded animal

Dara o Se threw the elbow and got away scot free at one point. IMHO he deserved to go when he did, probably should have been earlier.

[Uladh]

Agreed Maddog, i posted this on another thread...

After beetlejuice's defence of both o'se brothers after their sending offs today (they're just not that type of lads), not a peep on the sunday game about big dara's unpunished off the ball strike.

Is who you are creeping into the sunday game's galllows chat?

it'll be interesting to see if the cccccccc have any more balls than the pat's analysts and if they don't it'll be definitive evidence that rte run the post game hangings, not croke park.

[maddog]

Agreed Maddog, i posted this on another thread...

After beetlejuice's defence of both o'se brothers after their sending offs today (they're just not that type of lads), not a peep on the sunday game about big dara's unpunished off the ball strike.

Is who you are creeping into the sunday game's galllows chat?

it'll be interesting to see if the cccccccc have any more balls than the pat's analysts and if they don't it'll be definitive evidence that rte run the post game hangings, not croke park.

If francie bellew had have thrown that elbow or even did what Marc O Se did they would have been preparing the gallows behind the stand

[Galforever]

Didnt think Marc O#Sé should have got a straight red at all for that. He should have got a yellow because he did kinda go for the player, but feck it next we'll be abonding the shoulder rule altogether & we'll end up playing soccer!

[Uladh]

Iagree that there's no way marc should have gone. wasn't even a foul

[bingobus]

That's some turnaround alright. Opens things up nicely though. Did the panel mention anyhhting at all on the SUnday Game?

Did anyone see the Sunday game? Not a peep from Spillane, I know that if Dublin, Armagh, Tyrone or anyone else had thrown a 8 point lead he would be in his element and flat out interupting the "panelists" to try and put words in there mouth. Nothing like it last night, let them get on with it and dished out the standard questions.

If ever evidnce of why a neutral, non-playing host was needed it was last night. Expect hos column to focus on puke football last week.

[Sligoper]

Did anyone see the shot on the sunday game of that cork fellas left eye? The one who got flattened my Marc O'Se? Deserved red card as he clearly caught him int the eye!!

[Rossie11]

Ref was a joke but I blame the the Sunday game. After the Collie Moran incident the refs feel they have to send guys off or risk the wrath of tohill and gang later that night.

[tyssam5]

Hopefully we'll give someone a decent game in the qualifiers that will stand to them later on. Its the most we can expect at this stage.

Which round of the qualifiers? Why are Kerry in ahead of some teams that have won real games? Total Joke!

[AZOffaly]

Just to try and turn this away from another thread about the Sunday Game, perceived bias towards Kerry, and how disgracefully the rest of the country are treated by Pat and the bucks, I'll get back to the game at hand.

I predicted Cork would win before this game, and I had a couple of reasons in my head. The first would be that the loss of O'Sullivan and Galvin would seriously limit Kerry's ability to win ball and supply the full forward line, especially on a wet day, which is how it turned out. I also had suspicions about Kerry's motivation. Obviously they don't like to lose to Cork, but 'not liking to lose' is an awful lot different to real motivation that absolute desire to win brings. Take their approach yesterday in contrast to last September in Croker. No comparison. And when Cork started to turn the screw yesterday, Kerry had disappeared into a comfort zone, and couldn't bring themselves out of it.

I do think Kerry have problems, especially with Galvin out, and O'Sullivan injured. They have loads of 'ball playing' half forwards on the subs bench, but not a lot of lads who will win the hard ball like those two. You could have a full forward line of Our Lord, Gooch and Elvis Presley inside there, and if you aren't giving ball in, they might as well be watching from the stands.

A couple of random observations.

1) Pat O'Shea. A poor outing from him, or a laissez faire attitude to see how Kerry could adapt themselves, given that they have another chance? Hard to know, but taking the game in isolation, how they didn't try *something* when Cussen started destroying Tom O'Sullivan, I don't know. Everyone watching the game could see that was killing them, and giving Cork momentum because their 'switch' was bringing huge dividends. O'Shea did nothing to stem the tide. Also yesterday, bringing Tommy Walsh on with less than 5 minutes left was way too late. Bringing Donaghy out to midfield was an obvious change, but they needed to do something inside as well at the same time. Kerry needed scores to settle the ship. Tommy Walsh would have been another dose of Donaghy, but they just robbed Peter to pay Paul. (And Donaghy did nothing in midfield anyway).

2) Kerry's bench. Serious problems here, especially around middle of the field. I've already mentioned the lack of 'ball winning' half forwards to replace the two unavailable lads, but Tommy Griffin is not sufficiently dynamic to make an impact coming on. Kerry need to try and blood Tommy Walsh or maybe even Bryan Sheehan out here. Sheehan is not 'urgent' enough to do the running for Darragh O'Shea, but himself and O'Se would win a lot of primary possession. Tommy Walsh likewise. I'd leave Donaghy inside, because I don't think he is a midfielder. Sheehan plays most of his club football in midfield. It's a real pity that John Sugrue of Renard was so injury prone, because he is one of the better midfielders in Kerry club football.

3) Conditions. Conditions were brutal for both sides, but credit to Michael Cussen and co. for handling them well, whereas the Kerry lads were unbelievably naive. Soloing and hopping in the wet was suicidal and Scanlon, especially, looked like bambi ice-skating.

4) Sendings off. I think Murphy had to go. Both incidents were similar, and were both yellow card, clumsy offenses. I'd agree that conditions had a part to play, and that Scanlon made a meal of the second one especially, but Murphy was very silly to swing an arm like that when he had a yellow card. Marc O'Se's sending off was very harsh in my opinion, but Darragh O'Sé was a sending off waiting to happen, especially when Cork started to pull away. He should have got the line for a strike, judging by photos here, earlier on, but the sending off offence itself, unless there were verbals, was incredibly harsh.

All in all, I'm not sure if this leaves us any the wiser. Kerry have problems, but they may well resolve them, especially if they get a decent draw in the qualifiers, although the chance for an easy draw is probably negligable given the teams in there. Cork may have stumbled on a good formula for them, although you'd wonder why they had to stumble on it. They were shocking in the first half, but it was definitely a tactical problem. Canty, as 'sweeper', wasn't sure where he was supposed to be sweeping. It's hard to implement a totally new gameplan in one game, unless it's very simple. Offaly against Westmeath had the same issue, except our management didn't have the cop on to change it like Counihan did, to his credit. Cork will cause teams problems with the 4 big lads around the middle of the field, assuming Canty recovers, and Cussen in the forwards, but they need Masters as well I think.

[kevmy]

Fair play to Cork thought they wouldn't have the pride or passion to try and turn things around in the 2nd half as they looked very dead in midfield and forwards in the 1st half. Kerry paid the price for not driving on in the 1st half when they were on top. They could have gone in 10 or 12 points up.

What this means for the rest of the Championship is that Kerry are beatable. A lot of teams in the country would reckon themselves to be of a similar level to Cork and should now see that Kerry can be beaten.

Kerry lost it in midfield and full back yesterday. TBH I've been waiting for the last few years for Dara OSé's legs to go because Kerry have no replacement for him around the middle. Scanlon, Griffin, Donaghy none of them anywhere near what O Sé can do. I don't know enough about Kerry's options at FB but I think they will be lucky in that there aren't too many Cussen's out there.

People keep on talking of '06 when Kerry turned it around with aplomb (which they did) but I don't think they have the same chance this year for a number of reasons. The main one being the manager O' Connor was one of the best managers I've seen I don't think tactically or mentally Pat O Shea is fit to wipe his boots. I may be proved wrong but I doubt it.
The second reason is any team which has won the football through the back door has had a couple of things in common. They've identified a problem and rectified it (Galway putting Mannion to centre back, Tyrone put Cormac McAnallen to FB and Kerry putting Donaghy to FF) and I'm not sure if Kerry can find players to fill the gaps left by Galvin and O'Sé's non-performance. They've also got handy draws first day out in the qualifiers (Galway getting Wicklow and Kerry getting Longford) I don't think that Kerry will get a draw as handy.

As for the sendings off I think Murphy deserved two yellows. Marc o Sé was unlucky but I think he deserved a yellow if Nicholas Murphy deserved a yellow however I can see how the ref sent him off. The ref obviously thought he raised his elbow a small bit if he did that he would be off no doubt. Replays show he didn't but on first viewing I wasn't sure at all. Give the ref a break on this one.
Don't know what Dara o Sé got his second yellow for other than persistent fouling because a little shove in the back is not yellow card territory mind you he was lucky to be on at that stage.

[heffo]

Cussen is fairly mobile for a fella his size. He scored a lovely point by coming out and winning a low ball ahead of O'Sullivan and knocked it over from the right.

[INDIANA]

he is but under the high ball , kerry were dreadful. Its fine allowing the big man catch it at FF provided 2 defenders meet him on the ground. time and again Cussen caught the ball and dished it off UNCONTESTED. It was incredible to watch allstar defenders allowing this.
Why was Donncha Walsh taken off?
Why was Tommy Walsh not introduced earlier?
Kerry have an issue at full back in terms of size.

Call me paranoid or dumb, but I don't think Kerry gave a monkeys about yesterday and after nearly being caught by monaghan last year, prefer now to be in the qualifiers. Still fair play to Cork, IF they select the right team they should give anyone a game at least.

[Uladh]

Cussen caught only one ball that was put in. its the panic and the ensuing breaks, obviously all in dangerous areas, that do the damage

[AZOffaly]

he is but under the high ball , kerry were dreadful. Its fine allowing the big man catch it at FF provided 2 defenders meet him on the ground. time and again Cussen caught the ball and dished it off UNCONTESTED. It was incredible to watch allstar defenders allowing this.
Why was Donncha Walsh taken off?
Why was Tommy Walsh not introduced earlier?
Kerry have an issue at full back in terms of size.

Call me paranoid or dumb, but I don't think Kerry gave a monkeys about yesterday and after nearly being caught by monaghan last year, prefer now to be in the qualifiers. Still fair play to Cork, IF they select the right team they should give anyone a game at least.

That's sort of what I was getting at earlier Indiana. I was racking my brains as to why Pat O'Shea was so slow to make changes and in some cases didn't make them at all. Option A is that he is not a very astute coach, and couldn't see the game in front of him, or Option B is that he said to himself, 'okay, this is going against us, let's see how we deal with it, and if we lose, so be it'.

I, like you, think Kerry were far from fired up, and O'Shea wasn't too hassled to change things. However, there are weaknesses there. Is there anyone good enough to take advantage of them in the next 4 games Kerry would have to play to win an All Ireland. There's an All Ireland there for somebody, but Kerry are good enough (still) to pick up a handy one if no one takes the baton.