Lisbon Treaty Exit Poll

[Zapatista]

It is clear there was no referendum in many EU states due to the fear of a No vote. Your generalisation that the No side think referenda is the only way to decide matters is misleading (to say the least) and I think you know this.

You are still caught up in the idea that we give the wrong answer and it is not allowing for reasonable debate about how to proceed.

Do those elected into Government fall into this "most people" category you talk about?

Why do the politicians have try find anything? I agree the EU would work better with a more streamlined and transparent structure but I do not think the EU can work better with more Militarism and Competition. Few would disagree with changes in structure of the EU if they knew the powers of the EU where limited to a socail economy, Human rights and good relations.

The problem is that there is a misunderstanding of what a better EU is. A stronger more powerfull EU is not necessarily a better EU. For example the United States army are a bigger, stronger, more powerfull and better equipped army than the Irish army but this does not make them a better force in the world.

You said you have many things that you would say to BIFFO to make europe better as in - work beeter, increase the wealth of its members and improve the quality of life, now as a No supporter can you please give us the alternative?

Do you want an alternative to the Lisbon Treaty or an alternative to the EU?
There is much in the treaty I would like to see implemented.

One alternative to the Lisbon treaty would be to cap military spending and divert the funds to health care and education. This would increase the wealth and life quality of EU citizens.
The EU would work better if number of (e.g30) MEPs could propose policy.

As a supporter of the EU I ave no alternative to the current EU I would like to see happen, only improvments.  



Can we leave the SF stuff to another thread please.

when the other 26 come up with a formula to move on (as they must as no way will 1% of the eu pop be allowed to hold it up) that runs along the lines of - meet in berlin, delete irelands name from the lisbon treaty and call it the treaty of berlin and pass it i presume your deluded self will still think your a supporter of the eu? the eu would never be able to satisfy the like of you because even if they cap military spending and divert the funds to health care and education like you demand above youd have someother problem with the plastic bag levy or something else

Looks like I was wrong, MK has just hit the bottom now. The SF discussion was better than MKs addition so return to it if you want and I won't complain about it any more.

[magickingdom]

Looks like I was wrong, MK has just hit the bottom now. The SF discussion was better than MKs addition so return to it if you want and I won't complain about it any more.

the bottom was hit on friday 13th...

[Tankie]

This thread just hit the bottom. I'm disappointed as I was enjoying it

Reality has hit i guess!

[zoyler]

Might I recommend a letter in todays Irish Times written by a Joachim Fisher who would appear to be a German citizen living in Tipp.  Both wise and informative.

[Zapatista]

Might I recommend a letter in todays Irish Times written by a Joachim Fisher who would appear to be a German citizen living in Tipp.  Both wise and informative.

For starters the supporters of the No side have not "continually expressed outrage" about no referendum in other countries. They have voiced concern but continually said it is a matter for those particular countries to deal with and we will not tell them how to run their countries.

1. Ireland are not ungrateful for the funds transfered here. Ireland is very grateful.
2. The German banks and German Government doing little to abolish tax imbalances is a matter for the Germans not Ireland or the EU as a whole.
3. The fact we are represented equally at commissioner level regardless of population is to eliminate policy being directed towards certain larger member states while smaller state suffer. This is necessary to keep us as equal partners. It is also contradictory from someone from the Yes side as they believe the Commissioners are independent of member states and serve only EU interests.
4. I would like to see more German spoken in Brussels.
5. Germany are not being bossed around by anyone. Germany and the rest of the EU failed to provide a document worth a yes vote. Germany are not being stopped from implementing their own policy, they are however being stopped from implementing the Lisbon treaty which is an EU document of which Ireland is an equal member.  

I agree with his opinion that the EU are intent on building a superpower in line with that of Washington, Beijing, Moscow and Delhi. I do not agree that an EU superpower would be a better one than the rest. How could he come to this conclusion? As I have said before and he neglects to point out that it is this reason that people across the EU fear Lisbon. If the EU want to build a Supersate it should be very different than the superstates already in existence and not modled on them.

[Hardy]

When was the concept of being "grateful" introduced to international politics?

[stephenite]

I agree with his opinion that the EU are intent on building a superpower in line with that of Washington, Beijing, Moscow and Delhi. I do not agree that an EU superpower would be a better one than the rest. How could he come to this conclusion? As I have said before and he neglects to point out that it is this reason that people across the EU fear Lisbon. If the EU want to build a Supersate it should be very different than the superstates already in existence and not modled on them.

I think the EU would be grossly negligent if they didn't try and build a superpower in line with that of Washington or the others. Whether your like globalisation or not (and I'm not in favour of the concept) it's gone too far to pull back from that now. We either join a group to counter this or we fail.... eventually. In a world where food shortages are increasing, and Oil shortages are going to be a real fact of life in the not too distant future the people who have campaigned for a NO vote have also voted to cut the throats of future generations.

Now I'm aware that this will be viewed as some by scarmongering but if you fail to realise that inclusion in a larger Economic and Political group can only be of long term benefit to our people and the generations of Irish that will follow us, if only to avail of the economic and resource advantages that this will garner, then you're just missing the point entirely and not seeing the bigger picture. Your commissioner in Brussels will do f**k all for you when the Yanks and the Chinese hold all the worlds power and are keeping those resources that we've exhausted for themselves, or worse, we have the resources but cannot defend ourselves from someone coming in and taking them off us because we've decided we're better off not being part of a common defense policy and all because of some shite spouted by the likes of Gerry Admas, Coiste and other fringe groups of our society. None of this will happen in our own lifetimes but it can't be too far down the line.

If I was German or French I too would be telling those ungrateful Micks to f**k off and stop holding the rest of us up.

[Hardy]

What should we be grateful to France for, Stephenite? Or Germany?

And if we have to be grateful, how should they show their reciprocal gratitude to us, for our contribution to the deal we agreed as sovereign states back in '73? I wasn't aware we ever got anything for nothing.

And should I, as a voter asked to express my opinion on a proposal for how we should run the EU, vote against my considered opinion on the basis that it's more important to show my "gratitude"? And in what way would I be expressing gratitude to France by doing this, since it's only a minority of French people who support this constitution treaty?

[lynchbhoy]

Would agree Hardy, dont think people can understand this arrogant ram it down your throat aspect of 'grattitude'.

To answer what zoyler asked back a bit - I dont see how a No vote can upset our exports etc our economy is more in danger over the euro exchange rate rather than the way we voted.

Business is business and politics is politics, people will not stop doing business as the bottom line is money.
eg even while paisley was shouting never never never and refusing to speak to or acknowledge Dublin-  he was at the same time conducting his shipping businesses with and through Dublin. No surprise there given he is a hypocrite. However it shows that most peoples principles and ideals take a back seat to cold hard cash. If you think otherwise, well theres no point in me gojng any further.

also zoyler I dont think you have a monopoly on grief from the 35 years war !

[stephenite]

OK badly phrased Hardy - other European countries or the EU in general if you prefer, I made reference to the French and Germans as they appeared to be the only ones who made any sort of noises in our direction. We did better than most out of the EU, and I don't think we should have voted merely to repay that but should have had the ability to recognise what was in front of us - the EU has worked well thus far and Europe (and I include the French and the Danes) need to recognise this also.

I am convinced that globalisation is at the heart of this treaty and the sooner politicans sell it for what it is as opposed to trying to paint over or mask those parts of the treaty (common defense policy for example) that are unpalatable to most of the people.

[Bogball XV]

I think the EU would be grossly negligent if they didn't try and build a superpower in line with that of Washington or the others. Whether your like globalisation or not (and I'm not in favour of the concept) it's gone too far to pull back from that now. We either join a group to counter this or we fail.... eventually. In a world where food shortages are increasing, and Oil shortages are going to be a real fact of life in the not too distant future the people who have campaigned for a NO vote have also voted to cut the throats of future generations.

We have a UN, I would prefer to see that move forward, although obviously after Iraq and the US attitude towards it that needs work.  But still, it's preferable imo to having 5/6 superpowers trade off amongst power amongst themselves.
I am totally at a loss as to why you feel that NO campaigners have voted to cut the throat of future generations, in what sense?  Seems a little melodramatic to me.

[Zapatista]

I agree with his opinion that the EU are intent on building a superpower in line with that of Washington, Beijing, Moscow and Delhi. I do not agree that an EU superpower would be a better one than the rest. How could he come to this conclusion? As I have said before and he neglects to point out that it is this reason that people across the EU fear Lisbon. If the EU want to build a Supersate it should be very different than the superstates already in existence and not modled on them.

I think the EU would be grossly negligent if they didn't try and build a superpower in line with that of Washington or the others. Whether your like globalisation or not (and I'm not in favour of the concept) it's gone too far to pull back from that now. We either join a group to counter this or we fail.... eventually. In a world where food shortages are increasing, and Oil shortages are going to be a real fact of life in the not too distant future the people who have campaigned for a NO vote have also voted to cut the throats of future generations.

Now I'm aware that this will be viewed as some by scarmongering but if you fail to realise that inclusion in a larger Economic and Political group can only be of long term benefit to our people and the generations of Irish that will follow us, if only to avail of the economic and resource advantages that this will garner, then you're just missing the point entirely and not seeing the bigger picture. Your commissioner in Brussels will do f**k all for you when the Yanks and the Chinese hold all the worlds power and are keeping those resources that we've exhausted for themselves, or worse, we have the resources but cannot defend ourselves from someone coming in and taking them off us because we've decided we're better off not being part of a common defense policy and all because of some shite spouted by the likes of Gerry Admas, Coiste and other fringe groups of our society. None of this will happen in our own lifetimes but it can't be too far down the line.

If I was German or French I too would be telling those ungrateful Micks to f**k off and stop holding the rest of us up.

I understand what you are saying Stephenite but your solution is the problem. All these problems you talk about are as a result of the superpowers competeing against eachother. It can not be fixed by adding another superpower to the mix. I would agree to an EU based on ending these problems but the lison treaty is about getting our share and not addressing these problems.

[Bogball XV]

To answer what zoyler asked back a bit - I dont see how a No vote can upset our exports etc our economy is more in danger over the euro exchange rate rather than the way we voted.

good point lb, and tbh it's not often discussed, but, we would have been in a much better situation now if we hadn't been in the euro.  Simply put, the euro project cannot work while difference in taxation and capital expenditure policies exist, central bankers know this, that's why in the short to medium term harmonisation would have to be on the agenda.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

I didn't start it but might I suggest GDA has a relative go through what one of mine did ( wholly innocent -no involvment in 'the movement') and see what he thinks about Sinn Feins involvement in civil society.

You Sir, do not have a clue of my or my families circumstances and history.

As I said before your personal grudge against one party does nothing to aid your arguement, btw you mentioned SF in numerous posts before I brought it up.

I apologise to the other posters on this thread, for bringing it off-topic again, but I had to respond to the above.

[lynchbhoy]

To answer what zoyler asked back a bit - I dont see how a No vote can upset our exports etc our economy is more in danger over the euro exchange rate rather than the way we voted.

good point lb, and tbh it's not often discussed, but, we would have been in a much better situation now if we hadn't been in the euro.  Simply put, the euro project cannot work while difference in taxation and capital expenditure policies exist, central bankers know this, that's why in the short to medium term harmonisation would have to be on the agenda.

agree. As I mentioned some pages past, there is always a motive for an action (unless you are mentally derranged). What is the motives behind the lisbon treaty , not short term but long term.
I would think that this is what you say - the rationalisation and equalisation of all countries, financial policies, taxation policies and other legislation where possible - all to be harmonised.
I dont know if we can hold it off forever and be allowed remain in the EU, but its against our intererests to do this just yet, until we stabilise our markets and future revenue producing powers.

Also do Germany and Japan owe the USA?
Lets face it the US rebuit and poured zillions into these two countries after WW2. Do we hear the US bleat on about being 'owed'.

Forget about the roads and prev funding, we paid for this in other ways folks. Our economic boom helped lift the EU and Euro so we owe feck all.
Like Japan and Germany.