Divisional teams

[Rav67]

I've heard about divisional teams playing in the Kerry senior Championship before but never really bothered looking into it too much.  Just wondering a few things:

1) Does anything like this happen in any other counties?
2) Do the divisional teams train together much and if so would this not put a strain on players representing their clubs and counties?  Do they just play Championship I assume?
3) I know they can't go on to represent the county but what happens if say South Kerry beat Austin Stacks in the semi-final and then Laune Rangers in the final? If Laune Rangers got to go and represent Kerry I'd imagine Stacks would feel very agrieved as Rangers would have done nothing more to deserve their place than them.  I heard that in the past divisional teams were allowed to play in the all-Ireland series, you'd be seriously pissed off if you got knocked out by one. 

I get the point that it's there to help the county team by giving junior and intermediate footballers more games as a higher level, but it seems to an outsider to be contrary to what is good about the club parish system in the GAA.  I can't imagine much celebrations in any parish when a regional team wins in the county final. 

[AZOffaly]

I've heard about divisional teams playing in the Kerry senior Championship before but never really bothered looking into it too much.  Just wondering a few things:

1) Does anything like this happen in any other counties?
2) Do the divisional teams train together much and if so would this not put a strain on players representing their clubs and counties?  Do they just play Championship I assume?
3) I know they can't go on to represent the county but what happens if say South Kerry beat Austin Stacks in the semi-final and then Laune Rangers in the final? If Laune Rangers got to go and represent Kerry I'd imagine Stacks would feel very agrieved as Rangers would have done nothing more to deserve their place than them.  I heard that in the past divisional teams were allowed to play in the all-Ireland series, you'd be seriously pissed off if you got knocked out by one. 

I get the point that it's there to help the county team by giving junior and intermediate footballers more games as a higher level, but it seems to an outsider to be contrary to what is good about the club parish system in the GAA.  I can't imagine much celebrations in any parish when a regional team wins in the county final. 

This is my favourite topic

1) Cork have divisional teams as well, but I don't think it's as embedded as it is in Kerry.

2) Short answer, yes. It's timed, though, to kick in before championship games. To use South Kerry as an example, they played a few weeks ago, and are not out again until the 12th of July. The players will be playing with their clubs, with a couple of South Kerry sessions, and then about 2 or 3 weeks before the game, South Kerry will start training together twice or three times a week. And yes, they just play championship.

3) Divisional teams are not allowed in the AI club series. I don't remember them ever being, perhaps at the very outset. I agree with that. I suppose the closest would be the college teams, like UL/Thomond, UCD, UCC etc which were very contentious.

Regarding your last point, the club is still sacrosanct. The Divisional Championships are hotly contested, and mean as much, if not more, to the players than any county medal they might win with South Kerry. Dromid Pearses' men are Dromid Pearses' men first and last. However, they are also intensely proud of South Kerry, and playing for South Kerry, and the celebrations when South Kerry win are intense. I suppose one of the things about South Kerry is that all the players will either have gone to Waterville or Cahirciveen school. There's a lot of clubs in South Kerry, but it's all based around Cahirciveen really. Renard, Foilmore, Portmagee, Valentia, Dromid, Waterville and Saint Mary's , and even Derrynane, are all very close together, and would see Cahirciveen as their local 'big' town. Sneem is a slight exception. That, and their isolation from everywhere else (you have to go 40 miles from Cahirciveen before you go anywhere) means they have an identity as South Kerry.

I'm not sure what the story is further up the county, and I get the feeling some of the divisional teams are not as close as South Kerry, and don't have that sense of place as such.

Anyway, the main idea is that, as you say, it allows junior and intermediate players to mix it with better players, as team mates and opposition, which helps them improve and therefore supply another good player onto the Kerry production line.

Lads like, for example, Paul Galvin, Sean Scanlon, Declan O'Sullivan, Maurice Fitzgerald, Paudric Reidy, Killian Young etc etc have all benefitted greatly from the concept.

[magpie seanie]

I think the system in Kerry is fantastic and a major reason for their success down the years. One time I voiced this opinion in Sligo and said it was maybe something we should look at and was quickly shot down with a "well we're not Kerry". The irony seemed to be lost on most unfortunately...

[AZOffaly]

I'm trying the same in Offaly Seanie. Reviews are mixed so far.

[magickingdom]

this is still the structure in kerry to the best of my knowledge - from The Kingdom newspaper in 2001

FOOTBALL in the Kingdom faces a major revamp if the recommendations of the Fixtures Review Workgroup are to become part of the rule book after County Convention on December 12th.

The report, which has the backing of County Board Chairman Sean Walsh and the County Executive was presented to delegates at the last County Board meeting and is almost certain to become law for next season.


The committee has concluded that are enough games for all senior players in the county but because of the back door system for the All-Ireland Senior Football Championships and the new format in the National League, Kerry will be involved from early February until mid -August at least, county players will be restricted in their involvement with their clubs. They will only play in five county leagues games but they will always play in the championship.


The format of the Senior Football Championship was a major focus for the committee and its remit was to devise a satisfactory entry and exit system and to improve the standard by reducing the number of teams competing.


Much to everyone's surprise the committee said they found no desire to lessen the number of teams so it was decided to retain the twenty teams and instead seek to improve the standard.


However there is a radical new proposal for the County Championship which will see one senior club team being re-graded to the Intermediate ranks for the following year.


It is proposed to give this years four semi-finalists a bye to the last sixteen which will see An Ghaeltacht, Austin Stacks, South Kerry and Dr Crokes not having to play a first round.


The Championship will be divided into 11 Divisional teams and nine club teams grouped for rounds one and two. The eight divisional teams will play four games based on the open draw with four winners going forward to the last sixteen.


The four losers then play with two teams going forward to the last sixteen thus introducing a losers round for the first time.


The eight club teams will play four games based on a open draw system and the four winners go forward to the last sixteen. The four losers then play with the two winners going forward to the last sixteen. The two remaining teams will then play off with the loser being re-graded to intermediate for the following year.


However, since three of the senior clubs are seeded then one of the remaining eight, Laune Rangers, Kerins O'Rahilly's, John Mitchels, Legion, Glenflesk, Rathmore, Kilcummin or Desmonds are likely to face the chop.


The Intermediate Championship winners will be entitled to go senior if they so wish so for the first time there will be an entry/exit system in the County Championship.


The only bone of contention among clubs will be that while Divisional teams cannot be regraded, one club will suffer each year and it is perceived that at present that some Divisional sides are the weakest link so why should clubs suffer?


Inter-county players will play at least five rounds of the County Leagues with the Leagues being played in blocks in order to facilitate this. So the face of the Kerry County Championship looks certain to be changed this December and this will be necessary to keep pace with changing circumstances at national level.




az, i think east kerry actually played in the all ireland club championship back at the start but they were the only divisional team to do so..
 

[brokencrossbar1]

1) Cork have divisional teams as well, but I don't think it's as embedded as it is in Kerry.

It is just as embedded in Cork, for the football anyway.  In the senior championship you have a run of Divisional games with 2 teams going into the championship.  Down through the years there have been a number of good divisional sides, with Imokilly having won a few championships, with the current Cork manager Counihan being their main squeeze.  Currently the likes of Carrigadhoun, my local divisional team have a number of county players,ie Nicholas Murphy, Ger  Spillane, Michael Prout and Richard Murphy who was on the squad for a number of years but never made the cut.  Then you have the likes of Carberry and Duhallow.  Duhallow have won a few championships as well with the Yank from the hills being their main man. 
The university teams go into this as well so you have CIT and UCC.

They cannot play in the AI championship either but have a major impact in the local game.

[Doire abú]

Say your a Kerryman who goes to UCC, could you win two county championships in the one year or do you haver to declare for one as your club?

[brokencrossbar1]

I think you can declare for both if the club is junior club, we played UCC in 2000 and they had won the Munster Championship.  Galvin and Eamon Fitzmaurice were on the team and played junior for their clubs.

[Mike Sheehy]

3) Divisional teams are not allowed in the AI club series. I don't remember them ever being, perhaps at the very outset. I agree with that. I suppose the closest would be the college teams, like UL/Thomond, UCD, UCC etc which were very contentious

East Kerry won one , and maybe a couple of AI club before divisional teams were not allowed.

[Kerry Mike]

West Kerry used to be really strong in Kerry but an Ghaeltacht and Dingle go it alone so it weakens them.

South Kerry who I have played for, are very proud of the area they represent, and has produced such Kerry greats as Jerone O'Shea, Marcus O'Neill, Ned Fitzgerald, Mick O'Connell, Mick O'Dwyer, Jack O'Shea, John Egan, Ger O'Driscoll, Ger Lynch, Maurice Fitz, Karl Dwyer, Denis Dwyer, Killian Burns, Declan OSullivan, Ronan O'Connor, Bryan Sheehan, Killian Young and current U21 player Paddy Curran, and numerous otherAI minor, U21 and junior winners over the decades. Many of those players are from small rural clubs who would find it hard in some cases to field teams given the lack of employment opportunities in the areas, the clubs come together in the minor, U21 and Senior county championships with South Kerry and play against other divisional teams as well as against teams from the bigger urban towns areas. It gives the best club players an exposure to the highest level of football in the county and will hopefully help some of them in getting a run in the green and gold if they are good enough.

However the players who represent South Kerry also play with their clubs in county leagues split into 5 divisions and in the county club championships either Intermediate, Junior or Novice.

On top of that the clubs play in local divisional leagues and championships, and to win the South Kerry Senior championship, The Jack Murphy cup, is what every player worth his salt in South Kerry wants. I have a bucket full of medals from underage and senior levels (a good few years ago now) and the ones I treasure most are those won with the club though I rank my 2 county championship medals with South Kerry highly too.

It looks like a complicated system, but when you have a big county that is geographically spread out it makes sence to have some local games as well as the bigger county championship games and has served us well over the years, Kerry have using Divisional teams for probably 60 years or longer.

Counihan being their main squeeze

Squeeze of Jack O'Shea's family jewels that is  

[Gnevin]

It looks like a complicated system, but when you have a big county that is geographically spread out it makes sence to have some local games as well as the bigger county championship games and has served us well over the years, Kerry have using Divisional teams for probably 60 years or longer.

Counihan being their main squeeze

Squeeze of Jack O'Shea's family jewels that is 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Kerry_clubs  makes it clearer

[Kerry Mike]

Say your a Kerryman who goes to UCC, could you win two county championships in the one year or do you haver to declare for one as your club?

I think the last time UCC won the County championship about 8 years ago there were 12 Kerry men on the team, and they were christened UCK for the year. Frank Murphy was none too happy when he heard that the Cork County Championship cup was smuggled accross the county bounds for a week of celebrating in the Kingdom.

As far as I know yes you can play with a college but not in the senior county championship of another county, those players would normally play junior or Intermediate at home, if they were senior playres at home I would say most would skip the college team, in order to play for their club/divisional team.

[Mike Sheehy]

I get the point that it's there to help the county team by giving junior and intermediate footballers more games as a higher level, but it seems to an outsider to be contrary to what is good about the club parish system in the GAA.  I can't imagine much celebrations in any parish when a regional team wins in the county final.

I dont think anyone would claim that winning with the division is the same as winning with the club but, lets be honest, its usually the big clubs from the bigger towns that end up winning county championships in other counties. A better way of looking at it is that it gives players from Junior clubs a chance to compete for, and win, a county medal whilst, at the same time, they can still win and East kerry medal or a south Kerry medal with their club. As for the big club teams ? I think Dr Crokes players cherish their medals a lot more having beaten the best the county could offer. Otherwise teams like Crokes, Austin Stacks etc would completly dominate.Or, to put it another way, do Crossmaglen players value their 13th (??)county medal the same as their first ...? I doubt it. Its not a perfect system and sometimes you get a divisional team that dominates more than it should but, in that case, you have a perfect self-correction method ..the ambition of the club. When East Kerry won 3-in-a-row Glenflesk (Seamus Moynihan, John Crowley) and Rathmore (Declan O'Keefe, Tom O'Sullivan) went on their own. Kilcummin (Mike McCarthy) also broke away. realistically 2 of those clubs will probably weaken again (Glenflesk, Kilcummin) as they are both rural clubs and, when that happens, they will probably come back as East Kerry. One could also argue that playing with divisional teams actually brings on club players thereby strengtening their club for an eventual solo-attempt at the County championship.

Also, as was mentioned, divisional teams cannot represent the county so the strong club teams are not denied that honour.

I think it also works well in Cork...otherwise the city teams would completely dominate.

[Mike Sheehy]

It also helps the County te......

..actually, I take all that back...its a crap system, dont even bother trying it.

[Kerry Mike]

makes it clearer

To complicate it further there is a North Kerry Division but they do not play as a divisional team, they have 2 divisional teams.... Shannon Rangers and Feale Rangers.

Likewise East Kerry has an East Kerry team but also a St Kierans divisional and even though Dr Crokes and Rathmore are in East Kerry and play in the East Kerry championship they play on their own in the county championships, the aame with Laune Rangers in Mid Kerry, An Gaeltacht and Dingle in West Kerry.

Also there is a Tralee town league and cup for all the clubs in and close to Tralee.