11-Plus Proposal

[pintsofguinness]

ok it's fair to say that Pints your in favour of dropping the exams thingy at 11, whats next? when the poor kids fail at 16 years of age then 18 and when they go to college fail to get anything there.

so you want the Comprehensive system? or have you come up with a plan

It's very simple. Kids go to local school.  Kids get streamed into groups/classes, possibily based on primary school records where they can move throguh groups as they develop.  Kids who aren't interested in reading text books provided with courses in practical stuff/get a head start on learing trades etc with it being pointed out to them that a plumber earns as much (if not more) than a teacher!

[Sideshow Bob]

Pints did you fail your 11 plus by any chance?

[pintsofguinness]

As I said above I passed - not that it matters.

[Sideshow Bob]

So whay are you so against it? We still need some sort of selection process to move kids from primary to post primary education. The 11+ isnt perfect, but nothing ever will be. At least its an independant test, if it were left up to teachers to decide who goes to grammar school there would be a lot of favouritism and if it comes down to money then that will be unfair also.

[pintsofguinness]

I've outlined how I think it should be above.

[Pangurban]

You are totally right Pints, if a kid is good at playing the tin whistle, let him play it, same applies to all subjects, talent will out in the end if is not strangled by an elitist education system set up to cater for a minority

[milltown row]

smart ass

either way you look at it, there is pros and cons

it will end up with people moving closer to the schools that they think is best for 'our wee tommy' but with the current climate nobody will be moving for years, arent i glad that i live close to a good school

[pintsofguinness]

it will end up with people moving closer to the schools that they think is best for 'our wee tommy'

Yeah you'll get knobs doing that but it'll be a lot harder to move than it is to drag a child to tuition from their 7th birthday.

[FermGael]

 Taken form www.impartialreporter.com

St. Michael's to maintain academic selection
St. Michael's College will become the second Catholic Grammar school in Northern Ireland to implement their own entrance exam for 2010; in direct confrontation with Education Minister Catriona Ruane.


On Tuesday, Lumen Christi Grammar School in Derry announced that they were having two "standardised reasoning" papers in October next year.

Principal of St. Michael's in Enniskillen, Eugene McCullough confirmed that the school will continue to admit boys on the basis of academic selection and has sent letters to feeder primary schools informing them that in 2010 the school will operate an entrance exam.

The news comes as primary school principals across the county admit that they are "frustrated" and "worried" with the absence of an agreement between the political parties at Stormont and Education Minister; Catriona Ruane's refusal to deviate from her proposals which aim to phase out academic selection over a three year period.

In June, Enniskillen Collegiate Grammar School announced that they would implement their own entrance exam (in line with 30 other Grammar schools in the north who are part of the Association of Quality Education-AQE).

Primary seven (P7) pupils are currently practising their test papers and will sit, what is supposed to be the final transfer test, in November. Meanwhile teachers are concerned about what their Primary Six (P6) pupils will face next year.

The fact that many primary school teachers are not willing to speak publicly about what teaching methods they are using to prepare their current P6 pupils for next year, illustrates the contentious nature of the issue.

Most primary school principals who did agree to be interviewed said they were teaching P6 pupils elements of the revised curriculum, with some "assuming" there would be some form of selection test next year and others waiting for "clarity".

Controlled primary schools have been contacted by the Collegiate Grammar School and Portora Royal school has called principals to attend a meeting at the school. Maintained primary schools have been contacted by St. Michael's College who have revealed that they will implement their own entrance exam. It is understood that Mount Lourdes Grammar school have not issued any statement to local primary schools.

"It's frustrating for parents of children in P5 and 6 who don't know what is happening," said Hazel Gardiner, Principal of Brookeborough Controlled Primary School.

"Catriona Ruane says that we do know what is happening in that we are teaching the revised curriculum but at the minute we have P6 and 7s in class together. We are trying to prepare P7s for the transfer test while trying to implement the revised curriculum." She added: "What happens these children next October and November; what will decide where they go?"

At St. Joseph's Ederney, Principal, James Kirk said: "We are like everyone else; waiting for clarity."

He added: "By law we are required to teach the revised curriculum. Parents are very worried that no one seems to know what is going on. We are hearing contradictory reports from all parties; it's an intolerable situation."

Meanwhile, Joan Cathcart at Derrygonnelly Controlled Primary School is incorporating some "formal teaching methods" into the revised curriculum.
"I am not afraid to say it; I am incorporating into numeracy and literacy; some of the more formal teaching methods but I am also integrating the revised curriculum," she stated.

Praising the revised curriculum, Mrs. Cathcart said: "There is a lot of positive work in the revised curriculum. It is trying to properly develop the whole child; academically, their thinking skills, personal development and research skills."
She added: "I have a composite class of P5, 6 and 7. The P7s are preparing for the transfer tests but it is hard to run with both teaching styles."

"We have been told that some Grammar schools will run entrance exams," Mrs. Cathcart continued.

"Portora are inviting us to a meeting to express our views as a feeder school; at least it's a Grammar School making an effort to take control."

At Killyhommon Primary School; Principal, Eileen McKenzie said:

"In absence of any decision on the eleven plus we are continuing in the same way as always.

"We are teaching P6 on the basis that there will be some kind of transfer test in 2010 because we have nothing else to work on."

She added: "We assume CCEA (the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment) have some transfer paper in lieu of no decision. It is general opinion that they will have to have some provision in place."

Ms. McKenzie continued: "One Grammar school told us in writing that they would continue with academic selection but since then they have changed that decision."

Training for the revised curriculum is still under way at Killyhommon. "The aim is to have the revised curriculum fully operational by 2010," Ms. McKenzie said.
Ms. McKenzie has a child in P6 and understands the concerns of parents.

"It's very frustrating, especially when the (education) Minister hasn't spoken."

She added: "Children in P5 and 6 are doing INCA (International Review of Curriculum and Assessment) tests. We are to form a pupil profile and the idea is that by 2010 the children would have built up a three year profile. We are doing them because they are statutory but we don't know much because the tests are computerised and are sent away for assessment; the school has no input."

At The Moat Controlled Primary School in Lisnaskea; Principal Felicity Humphreys claimed: "Officials in the Western Board have told me that if there is going to be a test it will be on English and Maths. I have been reassured that there is no science involved in a possible test."

She continued:

"The children are undertaking the revised curriculum and we are ensuring that literacy and numeracy standards are kept high as well. We are concentrating on them in case of a test."

The Western Education and Library Board (WELB) said they were "not in a position to comment" on the possibility of a replacement transfer test or what subjects it would concentrate on.

Meanwhile Mr. Eugene McCullough stated: "I can confirm that the Board of Governors of St Michael's College has decided that in the absence of any definitive and agreed plan and pending legislative clarity on academic selection, St Michael's College will continue to admit boys on the basis of academic selection and to provide education for boys from age 11 to 19."

When asked about what format the exam would take and why did the school this move despite the Catholic Bishops opposition to independent academic assessment tools in Catholic schools, Mr. McCullough declined to comment.

good old St Michael's.  As a past pupil i am disgusted by this attitude.
I hope that Ruane tell's them where to go.
Lets see if they still sing the same tune if Ruane withdraws the funding.
A Catholic school set up with the ethos of free education for all using land that was donated it to by the parish.  A disgrace.
The only decent thing about this statement is the it shows the decreasing say the church is having over education.  The bishops are being ignored

[Bacon]

Lets see if they still sing the same tune if Ruane withdraws the funding.

Catroina Ruane can't withdraw the schools funding because the Dept of Ed doesn't fund this type of school directly. She could stop playing the teachers wages but I can't see her ever being so stupid to try and do that. She has said that her Dept won't pay for the entrance exams. That'll show them! 

[FermGael]

Lets see if they still sing the same tune if Ruane withdraws the funding.

Catroina Ruane can't withdraw the schools funding because the Dept of Ed doesn't fund this type of school directly. She could stop playing the teachers wages but I can't see her ever being so stupid to try and do that. She has said that her Dept won't pay for the entrance exams. That'll show them! 

Maybe so Bacon.  But what about when they are looking to redevelop the interior of the school or even build an extension.
As for not paying the teachers, why not??
If the school is not following what has been set by the Department of Education, then why should they be allowed to exist outside of the system? Surely they must face the consequences of their actions.

[Maiden1]

1 thing about the 11 plus is that there is a certain stigma about failing it.  Even if you go on to further education and have a degree there is still a certain black mark at the top of your CV that anyone can get a degree these days.  I say this as someone who didn't even sit the exam as my primary school teacher thought it would be a waste of time.  I now have a math degree and partly due a certain paranoia about how not going to a grammer school looked sat and passed the MENSA entrance exams.  My point is that if you fail an A level in politics you can to re-sit it but you only get 1 chance as an 11 year old which can have a negative impact on all your future education.  There are good things about the 11 plus, mostly for people who have passed it I would say though.  Just to enphasise the point about about it having an impact on your future career, I recently clicked on the Northbrook technology website http://www.northbrooktechnology.com job section for a friend of mine, I was going to print out an application form for a job and I noticed the first question at the top of the page


Secondary                      

Grammar School            
(please tick appropriate box)

[pintsofguinness]

1 thing about the 11 plus is that there is a certain stigma about failing it.  Even if you go on to further education and have a degree there is still a certain black mark at the top of your CV that anyone can get a degree these days.  I say this as someone who didn't even sit the exam as my primary school teacher thought it would be a waste of time.  I now have a math degree and partly due a certain paranoia about how not going to a grammer school looked sat and passed the MENSA entrance exams.  My point is that if you fail an A level in politics you can to re-sit it but you only get 1 chance as an 11 year old which can have a negative impact on all your future education.  There are good things about the 11 plus, mostly for people who have passed it I would say though.  Just to enphasise the point about about it having an impact on your future career, I recently clicked on the Northbrook technology website http://www.northbrooktechnology.com job section for a friend of mine, I was going to print out an application form for a job and I noticed the first question at the top of the page


Secondary                     

Grammar School           
(please tick appropriate box)

Exactly, well said.

[Maguire01]

And another...

Third grammar set to test pupils 

A third Catholic grammar school has said it intends to run an independent entrance exam.

St Patrick's in Downpatrick has written to its feeder primary schools and said it will continue to choose pupils on the grounds of academic ability.

Education minister Caitríona Ruane has said she will act against schools helping pupils prepare for such tests.

Two other Catholic grammar schools have already said they will set independent entrance tests.

Catholic bishops also wrote to Catholic schools last month telling them they do not approve of independent entrance exams.

and plenty more on the way apparently.

[saffron sam2]

And another...

Third grammar set to test pupils 

A third Catholic grammar school has said it intends to run an independent entrance exam.

St Patrick's in Downpatrick has written to its feeder primary schools and said it will continue to choose pupils on the grounds of academic ability.

Education minister Caitríona Ruane has said she will act against schools helping pupils prepare for such tests.

Two other Catholic grammar schools have already said they will set independent entrance tests.

Catholic bishops also wrote to Catholic schools last month telling them they do not approve of independent entrance exams.

and plenty more on the way apparently.

Yes, indeed there will, but each will require a different level of "intelligence" for entry.

For example, in 2004-05 (the most recent figures I can put my hands on), all of Lumen Christi's intake achieved a grade A in their transfer test. Only 68% of St. Mick's intake and slightly less than 55% of the Red High's boys had a grade A, with both schools taking students who achieved Cs. 26 grammar schools had pupils who got grade Ds.

Surely there should be the same minimum level of "intelligence" required for entry into all grammar schools.