Pay~for~Play

[Hardy]

I have no idea what you mean. Why should it matter to me what Joe Brolly gets paid? Indeed, why should it matter to you? And what has it got to do with the subject of the thread?

[muppet]

I have no idea what you mean. Why should it matter to me what Joe Brolly gets paid? Indeed, why should it matter to you? And what has it got to do with the subject of the thread?

Hardy,

There are those who argue that Gaa players should not be paid because of its amateur status, fair enough. No problem with that.

There are those who argue that it is ok for managers to be paid but not the players. That is hypocrisy. There are managers who are paid who argue against their players getting paid, that is hypocrisy in the extreme.

Then there are Gaa pundits who as far as I am aware are very well paid. If that is the case and they use this paid position to oppose players being paid then they too are hypocrites. They could at the very least outline how much they are being paid before they bash others.

Either the Gaa is an amateur association or not.     
 

[pintsofguinness]

Either the Gaa is an amateur association or not.

Yes, Id agree with that however RTE or the papers Brolly write for are not amateur associations so I'd love to know how Joe's wages from them is relevant.

[Zulu]

Then there are Gaa pundits who as far as I am aware are very well paid. If that is the case and they use this paid position to oppose players being paid then they too are hypocrites. They could at the very least outline how much they are being paid before they bash others.

In fairness muppet they (the pundits) are doing a job and thus warrents payment, by your logic newspaper reporters or newspaper opinion pieces should be done on a volunteer basis. Anyway I think a lot of IC players do quite well out of their playing days, many of the more successful ones have seen the world on the back of the GAA, they get money for interviews, opening shops etc., sponsered cars, free gear, meals, 3rd level education (in some cases), preferential employment opportunities, some open their own businesses on the back of their fame etc.

[muppet]

Either the Gaa is an amateur association or not.

Yes, Id agree with that however RTE or the papers Brolly write for are not amateur associations so I'd love to know how Joe's wages from them is relevant.

Brolly is not a career journalist, he speaks in his capacity as a former player. If the Gaa ceases tomorrow will RTE or those papers continue to employ Mr Brolly? Highly unlikely I'd say.

I have no problem with Mr. Brolly appearing in the papers or tv on the back of his Gaa career. But he should remember that he is a product of his playing days with his county. Any money he might take from the papers or RTE is exclusively down to him having been a player. If on the one hand he takes money for having been a player, while using a high media proflie only earned by being a player, then in my opinion it would be hypocritical to attack other players for also seeking money.

[Hardy]

Muppet, I think you're confusing jobs with games. Whatever about (illegally) paid managers opposing pay for play, I can't see any argument that former players who work in the media should not express a view on professionalism because they get paid to do their jobs.

[muppet]

Then there are Gaa pundits who as far as I am aware are very well paid. If that is the case and they use this paid position to oppose players being paid then they too are hypocrites. They could at the very least outline how much they are being paid before they bash others.

In fairness muppet they (the pundits) are doing a job and thus warrents payment, by your logic newspaper reporters or newspaper opinion pieces should be done on a volunteer basis. Anyway I think a lot of IC players do quite well out of their playing days, many of the more successful ones have seen the world on the back of the GAA, they get money for interviews, opening shops etc., sponsered cars, free gear, meals, 3rd level education (in some cases), preferential employment opportunities, some open their own businesses on the back of their fame etc.

First of all I disagree with your first sentence. Newspaper reporters are employed usually on the basis of 3rd level training, a number of years working with local media outlets before rising to the top of their profession after demonstating the required level of talent/hard work. Those reporters usually report on a wide range of subect matter or at least more than one individual sport. When Brolly regularly does pieces on the Olympics or Snooker or Rugby then I will accept him as a journalist, RTE doesn't even have him analysing hurling. He is merely a Gaa celebrity pundit.  

Your second sentense I agree with. However it highlights my point (admittedly made months ago) that the Gaa is nowhere near an amateur association. My problem is with the vitriol directed at the players from certain people here and in the media when the world and its mother knows that there are many people making lots of money from the 'amateur Gaa.

Either it is amateur or its not.

[muppet]

Muppet, I think you're confusing jobs with games. Whatever about (illegally) paid managers opposing pay for play, I can't see any argument that former players who work in the media should not express a view on professionalism because they get paid to do their jobs.

To 'express a view' is one thing. We are talking about one of the main opponents of the players, using his media profile gained from being a player, while enjoying the benefits he so articulatly would deny the players. I dont see why I cant 'express a view' without it being dismissed as

With all due respect, Muppet, that's horseshite.

[Hardy]

So you are to be allowed to express your view, but Joe Brolly is not to be allowed to express his because he's a former player (who, remember didn't get paid for playing) nor I to express my view that yours is horseshite. Forgive the robust language, but we're all big boys.

There's no point in going around in circles, so one last time - I can see no equivalence between being paid for playing games and being paid for journalism. One breaches the amateur rules of the GAA, the other is completely irrelevant to them. Likewise, I have no problem with players making millions from their GAA profile, provided they are not being paid for playing football and hurling and thereby exposing the games to all the associated evils of pay for play - transfers, spivs, agents, you know yourself - just look at soccer.

Should Liam Hayes have refused payment for his journalism when he was a player?

[pintsofguinness]

Hardy

So you are to be allowed to express your view, but Joe Brolly is not to be allowed to express his because he's a former player (who, remember didn't get paid for playing) nor I to express my view that yours is horseshite. Forgive the robust language, but we're all big boys.

Agree with that, you're argument has no basis muppet, doesn't even make sense and just seems to be down to you clutching at straws (and you're not the first). 

[bigpaul]

Just a couple of points that I feel would be worth pulling together on this. In one of his 'anti-grants' pieces in  Gaelic Life, Joe Brolly ,while illustrating how well county players were looked after, stated that Club Tyrone gave each member of the Tyrone panel £3,000stg spending money for their team holiday after winning the All-Ireland in 2005. Now, I thought this a curious argument to use in defence of the amateur status rule, £3,000 'spending money' while on an all-expenses paid trip? However, in light of the assertions made by a couple of contributors here, namely that the Tyrone County Board controls every brass penny that Club Tyrone raise, would this not be in breach of rule 11? Does anyone else think that this is a monetary reward for playing Gaelic football? If so, and the accounts of Club Tyrone are so readily available and ultimately controled by TCB, it could be worth having a look at!

If the £3000 was ring-fenced as spending money on the trip, then despite its excessiveness it could be considered no worse that a club taking its under 10 or 12 team on an end-of-season day trip somewhere and covering all expenses on it.

Don't understand how it could be 'ring-fenced',receipts? If it is 'controlled' by TCB, then in essence TCB were giving the players £3,000! That amount of 'spending money' for an all-expenses paid holiday is certainly excessive, at what level does it stop being acceptable-£4,000, £5,000,£10,000 or even £20,000? As for the analogy with the U-12 team, the trip isn't the problem, if the u-12 team each receive £50 'spending money' for their expenses paid day away, then I would say it is a monetary reward for playing Gaelic Games!

[bigpaul]

The point is that all the other expenses were covered! The £3,000 was 'spending money'! So in your analogy it would equate to paying for the children's day away and then giving them a lump of cash that no child that age could normally be expected to need!!!
The Association surely has this covered in rule, if they haven't it would surely be a major loophole, bring someone away on a team holiday and then give them as much money as you want or they happen to ask for and call it 'spending money'. The angle I am trying to get at is that,from memory,I think that the International Rules teams get something in the region of £60 or £70 stg per day while they are on tour in Australia. I presume that the GAA would be paying their 'finest' at or near the maximum permitted. If this is so, then the Tyrone players were getting almost £215stg per day(£3,000 for 14 days), over three times what the Irish team were getting!To my knowledge Club Tyrone or the Tyrone County Board have never refuted Joe Brolly's assertion. Donal Mc Anallen (along with many others) is on record as saying that the whole issue of illegal payments to players and managers would be impossible to investigate, not in this case if the accounts of Club Tyrone are so readily available or the money so tightly controlled by the County Board! At the very least it is another case of blinding double standards!!

The whole debate about Joe Brolly is just a  distraction, he is entitled to earn whatever money he can in whatever way he can, as long as it isn't for playing or being involved in the games, just as every other member of the association is!

[bigpaul]

To answer your points in order-
When you are taken on an all expenses paid holiday, ALL expenses are paid, that would be self explanatary .
How do you know the money is spent or not, as I said before do you get receipts for all drinks, presents or even toiletries? When you hand over £3,000 it generally stays handed over!
This would be the biggest 'hole' of them all!
As I said 'I presume' I'm sure you understand that I'm not in a position to quote rules.
I never said that the GAA were in breach of their own rules.I would be of the belief that it is acceptable to provide spending money on these type of trips,it's the levels of spending money.
I never heard the figure mentioned prior to Brolly's article.
The point I was making was that other posters have defended Club Tyrone and the use of the money raised by saying that A. their accounts are available B. that the Tyrone County Board controls the money anyway. If Joe brolly is telling the truth then there should be evidence if these levels of payment are contrary to rule.

[pedro]

I would tend to agree with bigpaul on this one.

The way I would see it is that everyone agrees that players should be looked after as well as we possibly can. Now, Tyrone go away on the holiday, players get flights paid, accomodation paid and all expenses paid. Surely this is 'looking after them the best we possibly can'. Then the sum of £3000 is given to them as spending money. It has been seen that they have no expenses therefore they are free to spend the three grand as they see fit. Fair enough, I have no problem with that, the players won the All-Ireland and deserve everything they get. However, had they not won the All-Ireland would they have got this holiday and the £3000? No, so therefore by winning the AI, they get money given to them. Again, I have no problem with this, fair play to the players, they deserve it. Simply, Club Tyrone (approved by the Tyrone CB) have given the players an award of £3000 because they have won an AI.

However, you now have OF One Belief forming because of the grants/expenses (money given to the players depending on how they fare in the championship, similar to above) when Mark Conway's own club and many other Tyrone clubs pay managers ILLEGALLY. Then the county board argue against the grants when they approve the players getting the £3000. To be honest, it smacks of double standards within certain sections of Tyrone county board, club members, Of One Belief etc. etc.

I would never advocate professionalism in any form but I don't see how these grants/expenses (which have yet to be proved illegal with regard to the GAA rules, remember) equates to wages, agents, spivs, contracts, the end of the club volunteer and other doomsday declarations.

[bigpaul]

Tram,you say in one post that the fact that the players got this payment was widely known in Tyrone, then ask for proof. It sounds as if you accept that it was paid in one post but need me to prove it in another.As I said earlier, if this loophole does exist, what is to stop any unit of the association taking any group to Bundoran for a two day holiday and give them £10,000 'spending money'(long two days on the slots)? The timing and circmstances of Joe Brolly's piece was interesting,if memory serves me correctly it came within days of the first meeting of 'Of One Belief' in Toome. In the same piece he heaped praise on Mark Conway and  he gave  the impression he was speaking on good authority when writing about the 'perks enjoyed' by county players. As far as the whole issue on 'accounts' is concerned, other posters have stated that the accounts of Club Tyrone are open and transparent and the funds controlled by the TCB, if Joe Brolly is telling the truth then these payments for success are recorded, if they contravene the guidelines covering payments and expenses then it wouldn't be difficult to prove, or maybe they were grouped in the team fund which players aren't actually supposed to receive financially. Can you not even accept that a daily allowance for personal spended of £215 is excessive, when I go on holiday with the wife and kids, if I was to budget that amount, after board and meals, it would be a short stay!